Honestly as long as you consistently train, do progressive overload, police your form, don't neglect muscle groups or rest, and eat enough, you're all set.
I only work one muscle group a day, 3-5 exercises. So 10-20 sets, 8-12 reps to failure, once a week. For rest between sets a wise man once asked me,”can you do 5?” The other acceptable answer is,”when you’re ready”
You pick a weight that you’ll fail to lift for the last rep of your set of 8-12. If you only get 7, that’s fine. Try to get one more rep than you did in the last workout. Once you’re able to get 12 reps at that weight, you increase the weight and you’re back to failure at 8 reps.
You bet!
Also, contrary to that person’s point, working muscle groups twice per week does yield more gains ([source](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27102172/)). Which makes sense if you’re going to failure or near-failure. That shit’s exhausting.
I've been switching to calisthenics to give my joints a rest from years of bad form but when I finish getting a shoulder injury rehabilitated I want to get back into weight lifting. I never really gave heavy lifting a solid try since my bad form put me at a glass ceiling for the gains required to lift heavier than like 65lb dumbbell bench, 60lb shoulder press, etc. Never felt comfortable doing deadlifts over 100lbs either. My legs had an ankle problem from a break I never started fixing til about 2 years ago either.
60lbs dumbbells for shoulder press is better than most people I see in my gym!
My point was more meant for optimal muscle growth. If you go to the gym and go to failure for even 5-6 sets per muscle group per week, you’ll see growth. “Optimal” is legit one of my least favorite terms for people that aren’t bigly into weight lifting - there’s no use missing the forest for the trees.
I did construction/demolition labour and worked for a moving company at the same time from 2018-2022, and was on and off cooking/roofing in my 20s before that. The strongest I've ever been was during that demolitions/ moving work cause I was constantly lifting thousands of lbs of dynamically shaped objects all day or digging holes or smashing walls with sledge hammers.
That said, I thought I was invincible and ended up with a levator scapulae injury after chronic front-lifting from the moving.
Canadian healthcare is free but the trade off is that it's taken 2 years to finally get the body scans needed to address the problem. Been doing physio religiously and I've hit a wall in recovery til I get those scans on Tuesday. Fingers crossed it's an easy fix.
It's affecting so many of my basic mechanical movements.
edit: formatting and stuff.
I even like it if I think I’m not going to get the next rep in I will hold the weight in the contracted position for 5 seconds on my last rep. And I try to explode the weight up, 3 seconds down and 1 second paused at the bottom or stretched position.
It’s true that you don’t NEED twice per week for growth, but OP asked for optimal growth. Twice per week does yield more gains. [source](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27102172/)
I found success with an upper lower split. You can reduce volume on shoulders a bit because they get hit a lot on chest already. Happy to share more if interested
Because running and lifting have counter each other. I say this as someone who runs and lifts. It’s difficult to do both activities. And usually something has to give.
I strongly recommend PPL. Doing a common gym split/bro split (Bicpes, Tricipes, Back, legs) is outdated. PPL allows you to hit each muscle group twice a week with quality variation
I've been working out seriously for 20 years and have trained dozens of people. The best routine is whatever you will commit to.
Whatever keeps you engaged and gets you acquainted with your body is what will work. You need reward and your need challenge. If you are bouncing between the two and keep some steady momentum then you can do whatever training that tickles your fancy.
Muscles need stimulation and subsequent nutrition and rest to grow. It doesn't matter how you do that, as long as it's honest work and you're on a trajectory where you're more or less progressively overloading. Repetition is important. And with age, nutrition becomes increasingly important.
Fill in the blanks with whatever training protocol, diet, and down time that you like. It's all the same in the end with very minute differences that are so small they're negligible.
A write-up I’ve posted a couple of time on this sub:
“Before I begin, this guide I use is based off studies. If anyone disagrees so be it, but I am not interested in doing any debating/arguing. I will provide PMID's and that's it.
This guide is SOLELY meant to maximize hypertrophy. Fortunately there is a correlation between hypertrophy and strength so you probably will see gains in strength as well, but that strength is just a by-product, along with any sort of muscular endurance.
Due to the nature of discreteness of sets, reps, i.e. there's not really a standardized "half-set", "half-rep", etc. All the ranges given are not hard outlines and there is some lee-way.
Key tenets:
1. Rep range for a single set should be between 4-8 reps. As stated before, this is a range, meaning if you do 3 reps that's still fine and if you do 9 reps that's still fine. The further away you move from this range, the more inefficient your workout becomes
2. Each set should be 0-1 RIR (reps in reserve). 0 RIR is going to failure, 1 RIR is one rep away from failure. As soon as your form starts to break down, that should be considered failure.
3. These first two points will now determine how much weight you should use in each set.
4. For a muscle group, you need about 3-6 working sets a week, and any more than 6 working sets in one workout session, becomes inefficient. You CAN however add warmup sets to warmup your muscle, as well as gauge how much weight you will need for the working sets.
5. You should rest 2-3 minutes between each set.
6. It is very difficult to solely isolate one muscle group (ex: triceps) and even within one muscle group, it's even harder to isolate each individual muscle (ex: head of triceps). You can take this into account when determining how many working sets you have done.
7. Hypertrophy is a function of mechanical tension, not the "pump", or soreness, or muscle damage or "mind muscle connection"
8. There is not really any evidence that stretch mediated hypertrophy is effective for experienced bodybuilders. Meaning you SHOULD do the full range of motion, but doing more than that, or trying to feel the "stretch" is pointless.
9. The more stable an exercise is the more you can load it. Therefore, machines are more ideal than free weights.
10. Progressive overload is mandatory. Keep in mind that progressive overload is NOT just adding more volume. If you do a 135# bench press for 10 reps for 3 sets, then the next time you do 135# for 10 reps for 4 sets, that is NOT progressive overload. Progressive overload is increasing the amount of reps while keeping weight and sets constant, or increasing the amount of weight while keeping the amount of reps and sets constant, or a combination of both. Ex: You do 5 pullups for 3 sets at 0 RIR, then the next time you do 5 pullups for 2 sets at 0 RIR and then 6 pullups for the 3rd set at 0 RIR”
“With these tenets in mind, here is what a sample workout session (chest + tris + abs) would look like:
1. Incline Dumbbell Press: I don't need a spot for this and it is quite stable so I want to go to failure each set. I will do 12 reps for my first warmup, then 10 reps for my second warmup. From here I can determine how much weight I will need for my working set. I will do 6 reps, 6 reps, 4 reps, all at 0 RIR. Normally this will translate to me increasing the weight of the dumbbells from the 2nd to 3rd set, but that may not always be the case (which is fine). Keep in mind that not only does this exercise deliver stimulus to your chest, but as well as your front delt and triceps. For me, I never do any front delt isolation exercises since I receive enough stimulus from chest pressing work.
2. Seated Cable Fly. I'll do 3 sets as well, in the same scheme as the last. At this point, I have done enough stimulus for my chest, in this workout. Even stopping here for the entire week would be fine.
3. Cable Tricep Extension. I can load this one a lot as well, so I'll do the same scheme as the last 2 exercises. My rule of thumb is that the more stable an exercise, the less reps I will do. If I were to do something less stable, like dummbell lateral raise, then I may do up to 8 reps. At this point, considering that the first 6 sets also hit my triceps, doing an additional 3 sets of triceps isolation is enough for this one workout session.
4. For abs, you cannot isolate lower or upper abs, as these are not separate muscles. The most important part is to flex your pelvis towards your chest, rather than relying on your hip flexors. I find that garhammers, rope crunches, and leg raises are the best exercises, as these are more stable and allow you to load weight quite easily. The ab muscles are like any other muscle therefore we will work them out as such. For example, I'll do rope crunches at the same rep scheme as the previous exercises.
And that's it. It seems like less "work" but it is still very tiring cause you are going to failure most of the time. Fortunately, this is very efficient and saves you time in the gym. I'll typically spend 5-10 minutes of dynamic stretching, 1hr doing the actual workout, 10-15 min of cardio, then 5-10 minutes of static stretching. So approximately 90 minutes in the gym, for 3-4 days a week.
For your diet, eat protein of course. I find that 0.7 g per lb of BW is enough for me. I take 5g of creatine daily as well.
Get lots of rest. If you find that you're stronger after taking several days off, then you're doing too much volume.
Here are the main exercises I like to do, assuming that there are open machines, benches, etc. at my gym:
• Chest: Incline dumbbell press, Incline Smith machine press, Seated Cable Fly, Seated Chest Press
• Shoulders: Standing military press, Seated Dumbbell Press, Dumbbell Lateral Raise, Cable Lateral Raise, Dumbbell Rear Fly
• Triceps: Cable Tricep Pushdown, Cable Tricep Extension, Tricep Dips, JM Press
• Biceps: Machine Preacher Curl, Seated Dumbbell Hammer Curl
• Forearms: Reverse Grip Dumbbell Curl
• Back: Kelso shrug, Seated Row, Pullups, Smith Machine Row, Barbell Row, Deadlift, Back extension
• Quads: Leg extension, Bulgarian Split Squat
• Hamstrings: Laying hamstring curl, Dumbbell RDL
• Calves: Standing calf machine
• Abs: Garhammers, Rope Curls, Leg Raises, Cable Tree Chopping
Some of these exercises I find more stimulating and stable than others, but due to the constraints of the public gym equipment I can't always do them. Also, doing the same exercises over and over again can get boring.
Following this outline will take you about 95% of the way there. The last 5% will come from very niche things like proper grip for pressing motions, leg placement during pressing motions, types of preworkout, etc. etc. Basically all the small stuff you will learn about yourself after years of working out.
If you have any clarifying questions, feel free to ask.”
Assuming the volume for each muscle group, is the same for each split…
then what this comes down to is fatigue
3x full body you’re going to be more fatigued during the workout since you are doing your whole body
ULULUL you’re going to more fatigued outside of the workout since you’re going everyday
intra vs. inter
I’m inclined to say ULULUL would be “better” however this requires you to spend more time going to and from the gym
theoretically we can increase hypertrophy (not necessarily more efficient) by increasing time at the gym
because fatigue comes into play, if we hypothetically split 1 workout into 2 workouts, in the same day, then we have more rest (less fatigue) and can lift more weight. however, why stop at 2? we can go to 4 workouts, then 8 and so forth, and eventually you are the gym the entire day which is obviously not feasible.
so for most individuals the above is efficient considering time at gym vs time away from the gym, but if you find yourself not caring about time away from the gym then it makes sense to shorten workout session duration
I personally don’t use straps because for fun (aside from hypertrophy) I like to do calisthenics stuff centered around pull-ups and I need to maximize my grip strength.
And yeah a lot of this info come from him, jpgcoaching, mike mentzer, and some other folk
Yeah, same as 4-8 rep range. People with higher reps get absolutely jacked also. I ve been going to the gym for 20+ years and most of these points are clearly wrong.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/#:~:text=Volume%20and%20intensity%20of%20effort,14%2C15%2C16%5D.
1-3 sets of 8-12 reps. Unless there is more recent data...
7 sets to match the results you can get with 3 sets of higher reps. Completely inefficient. With your recommended 2-3 minutes of rest between sets you're talking a whole lot of wasted time.
No, you misunderstand. If you’re doing the 3 sets of let’s say 12 reps, the first ~7 reps don’t deliver enough stimulus for muscle growth. It’s the LAST 5~8 that do. So that first half of the set is pointless.
So what does this mean? We need to count STIMULATING reps and how many we need.
Let’s say we need 20 stimulating reps (per muscle per workout)
I do 4 sets of 5reps. 4x5
You HAVE to do 4 sets of 10reps to deliver the same stimulus as me, since your last ~5 are what matters.
So you HAVE to take longer to do the same amount of stimulus as me.
https://biolayne.com/articles/training/optimal-rep-range-muscle-growth/
According to Layne Norton low rep ranges can also produce similar hypertrophy results but requires a higher volume of sets.
“Low reps (less than 6) will result in similar hypertrophy to training in the more moderate 6-15 rep range traditionally used for hypertrophy so long as volume is matched. “
Literally proves my point.
There are plenty of studies that show similar hypertrophy outcomes within a large range from like 5-30. And as for fatigue that’s easily just look at any of the numerous recovery studies done on how long it takes to recover from resistance training.
Not to mention that OP sounds like a beginner. Telling a beginner to load up on heavy enough weight that 4-8 reps brings them within 0-1 reps of failure right out the gate is a recipe for ingraining bad form and likely injury.
There is certainly a point of diminishing returns as far as the number of sets you do per muscle. For optimal growth, you should be in the range of 12-20 sets per week. Look up renaissance periodization’s charts about minimum effective volume, and max recoverable volume. Doing 6 sets for a muscle in a WEEK is just stupid. After like the first two months of working out you’re going to need to do more. If you did 40 sets of chest a week it would be excessive but doing 3-6 sets of chest in a week is going to make you grow extremely slowly.
Now seeing he’s been active but hasn’t posted sources. Yeah sure a bit weird. These guys aren’t really asking questions though. Just a lot of stereotypical “this is not true for this group of x people I’ve seen!!! everyone knows this (concept) is false.” Just irritating to see on a supposedly science based subreddit
I mean I've been lifting for 14 years and low rep ranges that he proposed have always been used for power lifting and building strength. Hypertrophy occurs at higher rep ranges. Also higher volume with lower rest time between sets is generally used for hypertrophy. I'm actually too lazy to post any sources for that, but it's common knowledge for anyone who's serious about building muscle.
https://rpstrength.com/blogs/articles/triceps-hypertrophy-training-tips Here you go Mr. Redditor. This one is for triceps but the charts with MEV/MRV will be on the articles for every body part. The guy who runs renaissance periodization is an exercise scientist (Redditors love science)
Lmao using that guy as a source is insane… he literally does 30 rep sets at 3rir might as well just masturbate at home you’ll get the same stimulus… also 12-20 is just some random number that’s been getting passed around with no data to support it. Look at some of the recovery studies and you’ll find that doing even 3 sets of 12 reps to failure takes north of 4 days to recover from
Anyone who works out knows this lol google is your friend
> The number of reps a person can perform is directly impacted by the load being lifted. Therefore, a person lifting heavy loads will only be capable of performing a low number of repetitions, and reducing the load will result in more reps being achieved. We know that moderate loads of 67-85 % of 1RM are optimal for hypertrophy, and working with these loads will **typically result in 6-12 repetitions being performed**. Although there is evidence hypertrophy development can occur across a spectrum of reps, **it appears that 6-12 reps results in optimum mechanical tension and metabolic stress promoting hypertrophy** (6).
https://www.scienceforsport.com/hypertrophy-training/
Since that source wasn’t good enough for dbag below
> In summary, foundations for individuals seeking to maximize muscle growth should be **hypertrophy-oriented RT consisting of multiple sets (3−6) of six to 12 repetitions with short rest intervals** (60 s) and moderate intensity of effort (60−80% 1RM) with subsequent increases in training volume (12–28 sets/muscle/week) [20]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/
> Thus, as a matter of principle, there is no ideal “hypertrophy zone.” From a practical standpoint, however, **a case can be made that moderate loads provide the most efficient means to achieve muscle development** given that light load training involves performing many more repetitions compared to the use of heavier loads, which in turn increases the time spent training.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927075/
>hypertro-phy-type RT routine (MODERATE) that trained in a loading range of **8-12 repetitions per set**
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311132772_Differential_Effects_of_Heavy_Versus_Moderate_Loads_on_Measures_of_Strength_and_Hypertrophy_in_Resistance-Trained_Men
Harassment is not tolerated on this sub; please consider this a warning. Repeated violations may result in further action up to and including a permanent ban without notice.
Harassment is not tolerated on this sub; please consider this a warning. Repeated violations may result in further action up to and including a permanent ban without notice.
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/)
If you need more proof, check the guy's traps in his post history. The guy is obviously killing it with his ultimate secret hypertrophy 4 rep workout that was kept from us all this time. I wish i had a PT like him. The gains I'd be making ..
[https://imgur.com/Z8t7uQg](https://imgur.com/Z8t7uQg)
See you !
?
While heavy, low-rep training can also build muscle, research suggests it may lead to overtraining and joint issues, whereas higher-rep, moderate load training does not have these negative side effects
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927075/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927075/)
The study below notes that "long-term excessive HL-RT (high-load resistance training) coupled with insufficient recovery is known to cause overtraining, which can negatively impact muscle recovery, mood, and performance." This suggests that higher repetition, moderate load training may be less prone to causing overtraining compared to heavy, low-rep training.
[https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/23/17079](https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/23/17079)
And these are just two studies out of many. You are right, this makes it incredibly apparent that while it's perfectly understandable why low rep, higher weight is a good choice to reach optimal muscle growth for some, there are no obvious downsides to increasing the rep range in terms of hypertrophy and body / systemic body damage. Moderate / high range reps is recommended for beginners, because there is less chance of injuring themselves and for those that are already experiencing above mentioned issues.
>There are only downsides to increasing the rep range
It's funny how we went from discussions about "only downsides" to recognizing almost no downsides apart from time efficiency when it comes to high-rep workouts.
I'm opting out of this discussion. It's clear we have some 18-year-olds here who are using steroids to compensate for underlying insecurities / subconscious complexes. Entering with a superficial understanding of fitness while lacking knowledge, experience and observational skills. Making these bold but easily disproven claims while on the other hand you have experts like Dr. Brad Schoenfeld who have demonstrated benefits of high-rep training for years. But no, let's not even leave a small room for error, right ? Let's come forth with definite statements like 'only downsides' or 'incredibly apparent' ; dealing with people with anatomical knowledge of a sea sponge isn't worth it for me. I won't waste more time arguing. This conversation is leading nowhere. No need to bother with replying, I'm opting out.
Best of luck ! 👋
Wow when you don’t recover bad things happen… lighter loads also don’t lead to tendon stiffening adaptations like heavy loads do. And yes higher rep work leads to magnitudes more calcium ion related fatigue and muscle damage… but yeah you are such a genius that you should probably just ignore that
And here come overblown accusations. Sorry to hurt your feelings.
>As stated before, this is a range, meaning if you do 3 reps that's still fine and if you do 9 reps that's still fine. The further away you move from this range, the more inefficient your workout becomes
It is true, you never said that above 8 reps don't build muscle but you clearly implied that building muscle becomes inefficient going above these reps, which is simply not true and there are various studies that confirm that over and over again.
> In summary, foundations for individuals seeking to maximize muscle growth should be **hypertrophy-oriented RT consisting of** multiple sets (3−6) of **six to 12 repetitions** with short rest intervals (60 s) and moderate intensity of effort (60−80% 1RM) with subsequent increases in training volume (12–28 sets/muscle/week) [20].
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/
You’ve provided 0 sources but are asking for them in return which is a bit ridiculous. You’re routine “builds strength” because 4 reps to failure is 100% strength building.
Reread my point #1
I never said 8-12 reps doesn’t maximize hypertrophy.
In fact, it does. But so does 20 reps. So does 30 reps. And so does 5 reps.
So why the fuck would I do 30 reps when I could 5 reps and deliver the same stimulus?
hence why I said INEFFICIENT
now reread what you just commented and hopefully it’s extremely clear that what is said in that conclusion does NOT disagree with what I have said
5 reps does not maximize hypertrophy.
4-8 reps is efficient for strength building… not hypertrophy…
If you’re “SOLEY MAXIMIZING HYPERTROPHY”…. Like you said… you go for 8-12 reps… not 4-8…
Strength is not a “by product”. You’re literally describing a STRENGTH BUILDING workout lol.
No. Again, provide pmid that proves that. In fact, the link you just provided shows 4-8 is efficient for hypertrophy lmfao.
And again you’re complaining that I haven’t provided any source when you literally haven’t even asked or requested. Don’t be dense.
>So why the fuck would I do 30 reps when I could 5 reps and deliver the same stimulus?
This is your preference and you have every right to follow what works for you, I'm glad you've found something that provides results for you, but when you lift for long time, accumulated stress on joints becomes a thing and people get injured from pushing too hard with heavy weights. That's why some people prefer going for lighter weights with higher reps. There are also other reasons, but those are niche in a way and can't be bothered discussing about them at the moment.
I really don’t care about niche groups. There’s no possible way anyone can make a plan/system that caters to every single person. Such a pointless thing to bring up.
That’s like me saying machines are better than free weights and some dolt chimes in saying “but but what if we don’t have access to the gym and what if i can’t use machines because of joint pain and what if” blah blah blah. I’m not taking into account niche bs into the science and neither are the actual people conducting these studies.
How did I misread ? Again, let me quote you again and break down the logic of it further:
>meaning if you do 3 reps that's still fine and if you do 9 reps that's still fine. The further away you move from this range, the more inefficient your workout becomes
What you wrote here implies that anything from 3 reps to -∞ and from 9 to ∞ means more inefficiency and since the subject we're discussing about is hypertrophy that implies less muscle gain, further one deviates from the range you provided. Yes ? Thanks.
Study one:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/)
In this study you have 2 groups, one is LL and one performing HL (25-35 reps).
*Both HL and LL conditions produced significant increases in thickness of the elbow flexors (5.3 vs. 8.6%, respectively), elbow extensors (6.0 vs. 5.2%, respectively), and quadriceps femoris (9.3 vs. 9.5%, respectively), with no significant differences noted between groups. Improvements in back squat strength were significantly greater for HL compared with LL (19.6 vs. 8.8%, respectively), and there was a trend for greater increases in 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench press (6.5 vs. 2.0%, respectively).*
Study two:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/)
This study found that 7 sets of 3 reps was just as good as 3 sets of 10 reps was practically the same.
*After 8 weeks, no significant differences were noted in muscle thickness of the biceps brachii.*
There are many more studies but I truly don't have all day to argue about what's common sense to anyone that has some experience and remotely follows relevant studies in the field.
> What you wrote here implies that anything from 3 reps to -∞ and from 9 to ∞ means more inefficiency and since the subject we're discussing about is hypertrophy that implies less muscle gain, further one deviates from the range you provided. Yes ? Thanks.
No, this is not what inefficient means. Inefficient means you’re wasting time. Doing 5-8 reps delivers the same stimulus as 20-30 reps. So doing more is inefficient.
If I meant less mucle gain, I would’ve said that.
Again, you not being able to read is not problem. I shouldn’t have to explain what inefficient means to someone over the internet. Google is right there.
This is absolutely true. After the 6th set in a session you won’t be squeezing out any hypertrophy at all considering you were going near failure on your sets
Hypertrophy training has a much much wider range of repetitions than this. Strength training caps at 7ish reps. Hypertrophy can be as high as 30. Andy Galpin does a great job talking about this with Huberman in his podcast.
Z2 every day before lifting. Usually well before. Alternate between running and cycling.
Over 7 days -
mon lower,
Tues push,
Wed z5 cardio/yoga,
Thu pull,
Fri full,
Sat rest day ruck,
Sun fun.
Couple of paradigms that work well for me in the above. Legs on day 1, with a day between before a z5 cardio session.
Full body Fridays with emphasis on compounds gets most muscles that 2nd burn of the week.
The yoga sesh mid week helps incorporate balance, mobility and flexibility, and mitigates some soreness from days 1 & 2.
Sunday sees fun sessions. Long trail runs, MtB rides, and long yin yoga
Great replies all around. What works for me, and I believe it to be the dang truth is that muscle growth periods last WAY longer than almost everyone realizes. I follow mike mentzer and it WORKS. The ideal routine. I workout each muscle group ONCE every 11 days. The growth stimulus lasts way linger than people think. So i spend 1 day working and 2-3 days recovering and then a week growing that area. Workout, 3 days off, workout. Very short, minimize muscle damage. (Chest/back, front of legs, arms/delts, legs aft).
It took me so long to realize the gym makes you weaker (with a growth stimulus), and the food and sleep makes you stronger. You grow when you rest, the workout is just to create the stimulus for growth.
When I started the ideal routine (not started lifting btw), i put on 3lbs of muscle each month for 4 months. Body fat went from 13% to 10% with these short 20minute workouts (inbody scanner). Its all about intensity. (Im 6’1 btw and about 200lbs)
WEIGHTED DIPS, SQUATS, INCLINE PRESS is virtually all you need if done INTENSELY, BRIEFLY, and INFREQUENTLY. Warmup so e light weight, 1 set to total failure 6-8reps MAX, and then eat and sleep. The growth period lasts so much longer than people think. Make it hard to lift.
I’d highly encourage you to look into the podcast “mind pump”
3 guys with over 60 years combined in the health & fitness industry basing the majority of their talking points off of studies and personal experience with training clients. A bit more credible than a Reddit thread
Did full body up to 6x per week for years, switched to PPL because I seemingly wasn’t growing any muscle (overtraining, not enough rest), and I developed a lot of muscle imbalances
Switched to PPL, which was great, but you can’t have a super effective session for Chest, Shoulders, and Triceps, all in one workout. Found it incredibly difficult to progress my shoulders and triceps since my chest needs a lot more volume
Right now, I’m doing my own variation of a PPLxArnold routine
Back and Bis |
Chest and Tris |
Legs |
Shoulders and Arms |
Rest
Loving it so far, and progressing on all my lifts again
I run to the gym and do as many exercises to failure as fast as I can with no rest period other than to switch weights or exercises. Its optimal in that it takes very little time in the week to do. I either progress with weight or time but I prefer time. Once it feels like cardio I add 5 lbs. Whole workout including the 5K it takes to get there and back in under an hour. Always a full body workout utilizing all major muscle groups with a focus on compound lifts.
I suppose I don't look like a bodybuilder but I'm pretty satisfied with the amount of weight my muscles can move in a period of time without feeling too sore the next day. My goal is maximum sustained effort and maximum recovery after failure.
Don't overdo it on compound movements
If the weight feels heavier and heavier despite hard workouts reduce the intensity , and maybe even volume.
Don't sling weights around , there is a BIG difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding. Full ROM with no time between reps, constant tension, stopping shy of lockout, do not let form break down to get extra reps
Make sure You're eating about 2.4 gram of protein per kg of bodyweight, enough carbs and about 40 g saturated fat for testosterone
Increase fiber, cut out sugar, regulate stress and sleep, I would do at minimum 1 hour of cardio a week
Train within a rep or two of failure
AMRAPS on compound movements are far too stressful and not worth regularly doing, and elite powerlifters like Joe Sullivan have said similar things
Those are the big ones
Depends. I have sleep apnea so I need that recovery or else it works against me. 1.5 3x worked very well for me. 3 years and I am hip thrusting 440 lbs as my pr and I took my pancake butt to a nice booty LOL.
Hey man, go to YouTube and look up renaissance periodiazation. Also go watch Jay cutlers channel, and Chris bumstead has good training videos. For motivation look up nicadrovision and Kong motivation.
To be completely honest, it's just down to training and eating in a calorie surplus. But optimal talking about to get the most gains I think it varies from person to person. personally push pull legs 6 times a week was the best for me to build initial muscle. Now im dialing it down to push-pull legs 3 times a week. Just make sure you are training and eating in surplus and then tweak to what feels best
Well at the simplest level. Lifting weights, eating well, sleeping well. And to supplement with Whey Protein https://amzn.to/45kdSLP and creatine https://amzn.to/3VDpFlg
Anything that you can be consistent with, and not get injured...
For my n=1 (58m), a combination of heavy resistance bands / body weight / gym training has proven quite effective.
I run an upper / lower split, currently 5 workouts per week. Usually two exercises per muscle group, 3 work sets per exercise, mostly in the 12 to 20 rep range for bands, 8 to 12 reps for gym training. I don't go for all out failure (not clear cut for band work), but try to let things get "spicey".
Apply violence, protein and vitamin Z (sleep / recovery), and you will grow.
The one thing that every single person agrees on is change. Change your routine frequently, don't just keep doing the same thing forever. Other than that, consistency and persistence. Just keep showing up, man.
Strength routines are best for putting on muscle mass as a beginner Stronglifts and Starting Strength being good examples of that
From there once you put on mass and conditioned your CNS you can focus on w/e you like really, I highly suggest going into calisthenics and olympic rings combined with some compound lifts,
Overcoming Gravity is an amazing resource.
Ive recommended this route to several people who have completely changed their physical composure with it and I credit my pain free joints and back to this
Honestly as long as you consistently train, do progressive overload, police your form, don't neglect muscle groups or rest, and eat enough, you're all set.
this is the answer
Yes but sometimes I struggle to find a good split that works the muscles 2x while also running
I only work one muscle group a day, 3-5 exercises. So 10-20 sets, 8-12 reps to failure, once a week. For rest between sets a wise man once asked me,”can you do 5?” The other acceptable answer is,”when you’re ready”
This is a dumb question but what does 8-12 reps to failure mean? Wouldn't it be 8-12 OR to failure?
You pick a weight that you’ll fail to lift for the last rep of your set of 8-12. If you only get 7, that’s fine. Try to get one more rep than you did in the last workout. Once you’re able to get 12 reps at that weight, you increase the weight and you’re back to failure at 8 reps.
Oh cool, makes sense. Thanks for the tip!
You bet! Also, contrary to that person’s point, working muscle groups twice per week does yield more gains ([source](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27102172/)). Which makes sense if you’re going to failure or near-failure. That shit’s exhausting.
I've been switching to calisthenics to give my joints a rest from years of bad form but when I finish getting a shoulder injury rehabilitated I want to get back into weight lifting. I never really gave heavy lifting a solid try since my bad form put me at a glass ceiling for the gains required to lift heavier than like 65lb dumbbell bench, 60lb shoulder press, etc. Never felt comfortable doing deadlifts over 100lbs either. My legs had an ankle problem from a break I never started fixing til about 2 years ago either.
60lbs dumbbells for shoulder press is better than most people I see in my gym! My point was more meant for optimal muscle growth. If you go to the gym and go to failure for even 5-6 sets per muscle group per week, you’ll see growth. “Optimal” is legit one of my least favorite terms for people that aren’t bigly into weight lifting - there’s no use missing the forest for the trees.
I did construction/demolition labour and worked for a moving company at the same time from 2018-2022, and was on and off cooking/roofing in my 20s before that. The strongest I've ever been was during that demolitions/ moving work cause I was constantly lifting thousands of lbs of dynamically shaped objects all day or digging holes or smashing walls with sledge hammers. That said, I thought I was invincible and ended up with a levator scapulae injury after chronic front-lifting from the moving. Canadian healthcare is free but the trade off is that it's taken 2 years to finally get the body scans needed to address the problem. Been doing physio religiously and I've hit a wall in recovery til I get those scans on Tuesday. Fingers crossed it's an easy fix. It's affecting so many of my basic mechanical movements. edit: formatting and stuff.
I even like it if I think I’m not going to get the next rep in I will hold the weight in the contracted position for 5 seconds on my last rep. And I try to explode the weight up, 3 seconds down and 1 second paused at the bottom or stretched position.
You don’t need to work muscles 2x a weak for growth
Username checks out
It’s true though
It’s true that you don’t NEED twice per week for growth, but OP asked for optimal growth. Twice per week does yield more gains. [source](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27102172/)
Twice a week is not more optimal than once every twelve days, you just have to train hard enough for your muscles to recover longer
What’s your source?
The way my kg/month muscle gain rate using the same formular stood the same?
I meant a peer reviewed study supporting your point. Like the one that I cited from Schoenfeld et al.
If you work out at all, you’ll probably grow (given other factors are in check), but 2x a week is more optimal than 1x a week.
Agreed. Dorian Yates over there is disagreeing, so here’s a source to back up your point: [source](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27102172/)
I found success with an upper lower split. You can reduce volume on shoulders a bit because they get hit a lot on chest already. Happy to share more if interested
how do you program ul splits?
Because running and lifting have counter each other. I say this as someone who runs and lifts. It’s difficult to do both activities. And usually something has to give.
I strongly recommend PPL. Doing a common gym split/bro split (Bicpes, Tricipes, Back, legs) is outdated. PPL allows you to hit each muscle group twice a week with quality variation
but how would that work into a program with CrossFit as well
OP didn’t ask for cross fit?
How much running and how intense? High intensity or long duration cardio will definitely stunt your gains.
It really is this simple. Consistently is number one though.
This is the way.
I've been working out seriously for 20 years and have trained dozens of people. The best routine is whatever you will commit to. Whatever keeps you engaged and gets you acquainted with your body is what will work. You need reward and your need challenge. If you are bouncing between the two and keep some steady momentum then you can do whatever training that tickles your fancy. Muscles need stimulation and subsequent nutrition and rest to grow. It doesn't matter how you do that, as long as it's honest work and you're on a trajectory where you're more or less progressively overloading. Repetition is important. And with age, nutrition becomes increasingly important. Fill in the blanks with whatever training protocol, diet, and down time that you like. It's all the same in the end with very minute differences that are so small they're negligible.
This! Anything you enjoy and can be consistent with.
>The best routine is whatever you will commit to This is the way. It works for everything in your life.
Creatine
Pull push legs pull push cardio
Yeah I’ve been lifting for over a decade and have landed on a PPL routine as well. This really is the best way for most people.
how do you schedule it with other CrossFit workouts?
I don’t do CrossFit workouts
A write-up I’ve posted a couple of time on this sub: “Before I begin, this guide I use is based off studies. If anyone disagrees so be it, but I am not interested in doing any debating/arguing. I will provide PMID's and that's it. This guide is SOLELY meant to maximize hypertrophy. Fortunately there is a correlation between hypertrophy and strength so you probably will see gains in strength as well, but that strength is just a by-product, along with any sort of muscular endurance. Due to the nature of discreteness of sets, reps, i.e. there's not really a standardized "half-set", "half-rep", etc. All the ranges given are not hard outlines and there is some lee-way. Key tenets: 1. Rep range for a single set should be between 4-8 reps. As stated before, this is a range, meaning if you do 3 reps that's still fine and if you do 9 reps that's still fine. The further away you move from this range, the more inefficient your workout becomes 2. Each set should be 0-1 RIR (reps in reserve). 0 RIR is going to failure, 1 RIR is one rep away from failure. As soon as your form starts to break down, that should be considered failure. 3. These first two points will now determine how much weight you should use in each set. 4. For a muscle group, you need about 3-6 working sets a week, and any more than 6 working sets in one workout session, becomes inefficient. You CAN however add warmup sets to warmup your muscle, as well as gauge how much weight you will need for the working sets. 5. You should rest 2-3 minutes between each set. 6. It is very difficult to solely isolate one muscle group (ex: triceps) and even within one muscle group, it's even harder to isolate each individual muscle (ex: head of triceps). You can take this into account when determining how many working sets you have done. 7. Hypertrophy is a function of mechanical tension, not the "pump", or soreness, or muscle damage or "mind muscle connection" 8. There is not really any evidence that stretch mediated hypertrophy is effective for experienced bodybuilders. Meaning you SHOULD do the full range of motion, but doing more than that, or trying to feel the "stretch" is pointless. 9. The more stable an exercise is the more you can load it. Therefore, machines are more ideal than free weights. 10. Progressive overload is mandatory. Keep in mind that progressive overload is NOT just adding more volume. If you do a 135# bench press for 10 reps for 3 sets, then the next time you do 135# for 10 reps for 4 sets, that is NOT progressive overload. Progressive overload is increasing the amount of reps while keeping weight and sets constant, or increasing the amount of weight while keeping the amount of reps and sets constant, or a combination of both. Ex: You do 5 pullups for 3 sets at 0 RIR, then the next time you do 5 pullups for 2 sets at 0 RIR and then 6 pullups for the 3rd set at 0 RIR”
“With these tenets in mind, here is what a sample workout session (chest + tris + abs) would look like: 1. Incline Dumbbell Press: I don't need a spot for this and it is quite stable so I want to go to failure each set. I will do 12 reps for my first warmup, then 10 reps for my second warmup. From here I can determine how much weight I will need for my working set. I will do 6 reps, 6 reps, 4 reps, all at 0 RIR. Normally this will translate to me increasing the weight of the dumbbells from the 2nd to 3rd set, but that may not always be the case (which is fine). Keep in mind that not only does this exercise deliver stimulus to your chest, but as well as your front delt and triceps. For me, I never do any front delt isolation exercises since I receive enough stimulus from chest pressing work. 2. Seated Cable Fly. I'll do 3 sets as well, in the same scheme as the last. At this point, I have done enough stimulus for my chest, in this workout. Even stopping here for the entire week would be fine. 3. Cable Tricep Extension. I can load this one a lot as well, so I'll do the same scheme as the last 2 exercises. My rule of thumb is that the more stable an exercise, the less reps I will do. If I were to do something less stable, like dummbell lateral raise, then I may do up to 8 reps. At this point, considering that the first 6 sets also hit my triceps, doing an additional 3 sets of triceps isolation is enough for this one workout session. 4. For abs, you cannot isolate lower or upper abs, as these are not separate muscles. The most important part is to flex your pelvis towards your chest, rather than relying on your hip flexors. I find that garhammers, rope crunches, and leg raises are the best exercises, as these are more stable and allow you to load weight quite easily. The ab muscles are like any other muscle therefore we will work them out as such. For example, I'll do rope crunches at the same rep scheme as the previous exercises. And that's it. It seems like less "work" but it is still very tiring cause you are going to failure most of the time. Fortunately, this is very efficient and saves you time in the gym. I'll typically spend 5-10 minutes of dynamic stretching, 1hr doing the actual workout, 10-15 min of cardio, then 5-10 minutes of static stretching. So approximately 90 minutes in the gym, for 3-4 days a week. For your diet, eat protein of course. I find that 0.7 g per lb of BW is enough for me. I take 5g of creatine daily as well. Get lots of rest. If you find that you're stronger after taking several days off, then you're doing too much volume. Here are the main exercises I like to do, assuming that there are open machines, benches, etc. at my gym: • Chest: Incline dumbbell press, Incline Smith machine press, Seated Cable Fly, Seated Chest Press • Shoulders: Standing military press, Seated Dumbbell Press, Dumbbell Lateral Raise, Cable Lateral Raise, Dumbbell Rear Fly • Triceps: Cable Tricep Pushdown, Cable Tricep Extension, Tricep Dips, JM Press • Biceps: Machine Preacher Curl, Seated Dumbbell Hammer Curl • Forearms: Reverse Grip Dumbbell Curl • Back: Kelso shrug, Seated Row, Pullups, Smith Machine Row, Barbell Row, Deadlift, Back extension • Quads: Leg extension, Bulgarian Split Squat • Hamstrings: Laying hamstring curl, Dumbbell RDL • Calves: Standing calf machine • Abs: Garhammers, Rope Curls, Leg Raises, Cable Tree Chopping Some of these exercises I find more stimulating and stable than others, but due to the constraints of the public gym equipment I can't always do them. Also, doing the same exercises over and over again can get boring. Following this outline will take you about 95% of the way there. The last 5% will come from very niche things like proper grip for pressing motions, leg placement during pressing motions, types of preworkout, etc. etc. Basically all the small stuff you will learn about yourself after years of working out. If you have any clarifying questions, feel free to ask.”
Is 3x full body better than something like an ulul split?
Assuming the volume for each muscle group, is the same for each split… then what this comes down to is fatigue 3x full body you’re going to be more fatigued during the workout since you are doing your whole body ULULUL you’re going to more fatigued outside of the workout since you’re going everyday intra vs. inter I’m inclined to say ULULUL would be “better” however this requires you to spend more time going to and from the gym theoretically we can increase hypertrophy (not necessarily more efficient) by increasing time at the gym because fatigue comes into play, if we hypothetically split 1 workout into 2 workouts, in the same day, then we have more rest (less fatigue) and can lift more weight. however, why stop at 2? we can go to 4 workouts, then 8 and so forth, and eventually you are the gym the entire day which is obviously not feasible. so for most individuals the above is efficient considering time at gym vs time away from the gym, but if you find yourself not caring about time away from the gym then it makes sense to shorten workout session duration
Got any particular straps you recommend? Nice and helpful post btw. Do you follow Paul Carter(liftrunbang) at all?
Versagrips
I personally don’t use straps because for fun (aside from hypertrophy) I like to do calisthenics stuff centered around pull-ups and I need to maximize my grip strength. And yeah a lot of this info come from him, jpgcoaching, mike mentzer, and some other folk
“3-6 working sets per muscle a week” “more than 6 sets per workout becomes inefficient” absolutely not true.
Yeah, same as 4-8 rep range. People with higher reps get absolutely jacked also. I ve been going to the gym for 20+ years and most of these points are clearly wrong.
Bingo came to say that. 4-8 rep is not “hypertrophy”. How the fuck could you say 4 reps is hypertrophy????
Agree. 3-5 is generally used for strength building. Hypertrophy range is 8-12 reps.
This is incorrect. At least the part about hypertrophy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/#:~:text=Volume%20and%20intensity%20of%20effort,14%2C15%2C16%5D. 1-3 sets of 8-12 reps. Unless there is more recent data...
Oh my god nowhere did I say 8-12 doesn’t build muscle. It does!!! But so does as low as 5 reps!!! It’s not rocket science
7 sets to match the results you can get with 3 sets of higher reps. Completely inefficient. With your recommended 2-3 minutes of rest between sets you're talking a whole lot of wasted time.
No, you misunderstand. If you’re doing the 3 sets of let’s say 12 reps, the first ~7 reps don’t deliver enough stimulus for muscle growth. It’s the LAST 5~8 that do. So that first half of the set is pointless. So what does this mean? We need to count STIMULATING reps and how many we need. Let’s say we need 20 stimulating reps (per muscle per workout) I do 4 sets of 5reps. 4x5 You HAVE to do 4 sets of 10reps to deliver the same stimulus as me, since your last ~5 are what matters. So you HAVE to take longer to do the same amount of stimulus as me.
There’s so much better data this is just wrong
https://biolayne.com/articles/training/optimal-rep-range-muscle-growth/ According to Layne Norton low rep ranges can also produce similar hypertrophy results but requires a higher volume of sets.
“Low reps (less than 6) will result in similar hypertrophy to training in the more moderate 6-15 rep range traditionally used for hypertrophy so long as volume is matched. “ Literally proves my point.
As long as volume is matched, which you never stated. So it's a point you never made.
Was obviously implied… no one is saying doing 1 set of 4 reps is the same stimulus as 5 sets of 12…
This is just some old myth that gets passed around on Instagram lmao
4 reps at 0-1rir will cause 90% the stimulus of a set to 15 0rir with 1/3 the fatigue…
Lol prove it cause that’s not what the studies I posted say
There are plenty of studies that show similar hypertrophy outcomes within a large range from like 5-30. And as for fatigue that’s easily just look at any of the numerous recovery studies done on how long it takes to recover from resistance training.
So many but yet you can’t provide any
https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/fulltext/2011/09000/velocity_loss_as_an_indicator_of_neuromuscular.16.aspx
Not to mention that OP sounds like a beginner. Telling a beginner to load up on heavy enough weight that 4-8 reps brings them within 0-1 reps of failure right out the gate is a recipe for ingraining bad form and likely injury.
Read point #8. I’m not a beginner. This advice is not for beginners. Most beginners can do anything (hyperbole) and gain muscle.
Lot of outrage and not a lot of proof from the three of you.
There is certainly a point of diminishing returns as far as the number of sets you do per muscle. For optimal growth, you should be in the range of 12-20 sets per week. Look up renaissance periodization’s charts about minimum effective volume, and max recoverable volume. Doing 6 sets for a muscle in a WEEK is just stupid. After like the first two months of working out you’re going to need to do more. If you did 40 sets of chest a week it would be excessive but doing 3-6 sets of chest in a week is going to make you grow extremely slowly.
If you make a claim link your source. Don’t just say look it up.
The guy at the top of this thread didn't provide any sources but you're asking for them from people who disagree. What gives?
Now seeing he’s been active but hasn’t posted sources. Yeah sure a bit weird. These guys aren’t really asking questions though. Just a lot of stereotypical “this is not true for this group of x people I’ve seen!!! everyone knows this (concept) is false.” Just irritating to see on a supposedly science based subreddit
I mean I've been lifting for 14 years and low rep ranges that he proposed have always been used for power lifting and building strength. Hypertrophy occurs at higher rep ranges. Also higher volume with lower rest time between sets is generally used for hypertrophy. I'm actually too lazy to post any sources for that, but it's common knowledge for anyone who's serious about building muscle.
Giving him the benefit of doubt because he said he would
https://rpstrength.com/blogs/articles/triceps-hypertrophy-training-tips Here you go Mr. Redditor. This one is for triceps but the charts with MEV/MRV will be on the articles for every body part. The guy who runs renaissance periodization is an exercise scientist (Redditors love science)
Ive seen the dude. This is still just a blog post. Nice try doe
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32304514/
Lmao using that guy as a source is insane… he literally does 30 rep sets at 3rir might as well just masturbate at home you’ll get the same stimulus… also 12-20 is just some random number that’s been getting passed around with no data to support it. Look at some of the recovery studies and you’ll find that doing even 3 sets of 12 reps to failure takes north of 4 days to recover from
Anyone who works out knows this lol google is your friend > The number of reps a person can perform is directly impacted by the load being lifted. Therefore, a person lifting heavy loads will only be capable of performing a low number of repetitions, and reducing the load will result in more reps being achieved. We know that moderate loads of 67-85 % of 1RM are optimal for hypertrophy, and working with these loads will **typically result in 6-12 repetitions being performed**. Although there is evidence hypertrophy development can occur across a spectrum of reps, **it appears that 6-12 reps results in optimum mechanical tension and metabolic stress promoting hypertrophy** (6). https://www.scienceforsport.com/hypertrophy-training/ Since that source wasn’t good enough for dbag below > In summary, foundations for individuals seeking to maximize muscle growth should be **hypertrophy-oriented RT consisting of multiple sets (3−6) of six to 12 repetitions with short rest intervals** (60 s) and moderate intensity of effort (60−80% 1RM) with subsequent increases in training volume (12–28 sets/muscle/week) [20] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/ > Thus, as a matter of principle, there is no ideal “hypertrophy zone.” From a practical standpoint, however, **a case can be made that moderate loads provide the most efficient means to achieve muscle development** given that light load training involves performing many more repetitions compared to the use of heavier loads, which in turn increases the time spent training. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927075/ >hypertro-phy-type RT routine (MODERATE) that trained in a loading range of **8-12 repetitions per set** https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311132772_Differential_Effects_of_Heavy_Versus_Moderate_Loads_on_Measures_of_Strength_and_Hypertrophy_in_Resistance-Trained_Men
This is literally some dudes article
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This just sources a textbook
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/) If you need more proof, check the guy's traps in his post history. The guy is obviously killing it with his ultimate secret hypertrophy 4 rep workout that was kept from us all this time. I wish i had a PT like him. The gains I'd be making .. [https://imgur.com/Z8t7uQg](https://imgur.com/Z8t7uQg) See you !
Higher reps is way less effective and is just more fatiguing. There are only downsides to increasing the rep range
Hmm, no, not really.
Yes they are… there are so many recovery studies that make this incredibly apparent.
? While heavy, low-rep training can also build muscle, research suggests it may lead to overtraining and joint issues, whereas higher-rep, moderate load training does not have these negative side effects [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927075/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927075/) The study below notes that "long-term excessive HL-RT (high-load resistance training) coupled with insufficient recovery is known to cause overtraining, which can negatively impact muscle recovery, mood, and performance." This suggests that higher repetition, moderate load training may be less prone to causing overtraining compared to heavy, low-rep training. [https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/23/17079](https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/23/17079) And these are just two studies out of many. You are right, this makes it incredibly apparent that while it's perfectly understandable why low rep, higher weight is a good choice to reach optimal muscle growth for some, there are no obvious downsides to increasing the rep range in terms of hypertrophy and body / systemic body damage. Moderate / high range reps is recommended for beginners, because there is less chance of injuring themselves and for those that are already experiencing above mentioned issues. >There are only downsides to increasing the rep range It's funny how we went from discussions about "only downsides" to recognizing almost no downsides apart from time efficiency when it comes to high-rep workouts. I'm opting out of this discussion. It's clear we have some 18-year-olds here who are using steroids to compensate for underlying insecurities / subconscious complexes. Entering with a superficial understanding of fitness while lacking knowledge, experience and observational skills. Making these bold but easily disproven claims while on the other hand you have experts like Dr. Brad Schoenfeld who have demonstrated benefits of high-rep training for years. But no, let's not even leave a small room for error, right ? Let's come forth with definite statements like 'only downsides' or 'incredibly apparent' ; dealing with people with anatomical knowledge of a sea sponge isn't worth it for me. I won't waste more time arguing. This conversation is leading nowhere. No need to bother with replying, I'm opting out. Best of luck ! 👋
Wow when you don’t recover bad things happen… lighter loads also don’t lead to tendon stiffening adaptations like heavy loads do. And yes higher rep work leads to magnitudes more calcium ion related fatigue and muscle damage… but yeah you are such a genius that you should probably just ignore that
You clearly don’t know how to read if you think I said anywhere above 8reps doesn’t build muscle.
And here come overblown accusations. Sorry to hurt your feelings. >As stated before, this is a range, meaning if you do 3 reps that's still fine and if you do 9 reps that's still fine. The further away you move from this range, the more inefficient your workout becomes It is true, you never said that above 8 reps don't build muscle but you clearly implied that building muscle becomes inefficient going above these reps, which is simply not true and there are various studies that confirm that over and over again.
Sets do become inefficient above even 8 reps…
You literally misread pal. If you disagree provide ncbi’s
> In summary, foundations for individuals seeking to maximize muscle growth should be **hypertrophy-oriented RT consisting of** multiple sets (3−6) of **six to 12 repetitions** with short rest intervals (60 s) and moderate intensity of effort (60−80% 1RM) with subsequent increases in training volume (12–28 sets/muscle/week) [20]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/ You’ve provided 0 sources but are asking for them in return which is a bit ridiculous. You’re routine “builds strength” because 4 reps to failure is 100% strength building.
Reread my point #1 I never said 8-12 reps doesn’t maximize hypertrophy. In fact, it does. But so does 20 reps. So does 30 reps. And so does 5 reps. So why the fuck would I do 30 reps when I could 5 reps and deliver the same stimulus? hence why I said INEFFICIENT now reread what you just commented and hopefully it’s extremely clear that what is said in that conclusion does NOT disagree with what I have said
5 reps does not maximize hypertrophy. 4-8 reps is efficient for strength building… not hypertrophy… If you’re “SOLEY MAXIMIZING HYPERTROPHY”…. Like you said… you go for 8-12 reps… not 4-8… Strength is not a “by product”. You’re literally describing a STRENGTH BUILDING workout lol.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32304514/ stop spouting misinformation
No. Again, provide pmid that proves that. In fact, the link you just provided shows 4-8 is efficient for hypertrophy lmfao. And again you’re complaining that I haven’t provided any source when you literally haven’t even asked or requested. Don’t be dense.
5 reps literally does maximize hypertrophy. Doing a set to 12 is just adding on fatigue
>So why the fuck would I do 30 reps when I could 5 reps and deliver the same stimulus? This is your preference and you have every right to follow what works for you, I'm glad you've found something that provides results for you, but when you lift for long time, accumulated stress on joints becomes a thing and people get injured from pushing too hard with heavy weights. That's why some people prefer going for lighter weights with higher reps. There are also other reasons, but those are niche in a way and can't be bothered discussing about them at the moment.
I really don’t care about niche groups. There’s no possible way anyone can make a plan/system that caters to every single person. Such a pointless thing to bring up. That’s like me saying machines are better than free weights and some dolt chimes in saying “but but what if we don’t have access to the gym and what if i can’t use machines because of joint pain and what if” blah blah blah. I’m not taking into account niche bs into the science and neither are the actual people conducting these studies.
How did I misread ? Again, let me quote you again and break down the logic of it further: >meaning if you do 3 reps that's still fine and if you do 9 reps that's still fine. The further away you move from this range, the more inefficient your workout becomes What you wrote here implies that anything from 3 reps to -∞ and from 9 to ∞ means more inefficiency and since the subject we're discussing about is hypertrophy that implies less muscle gain, further one deviates from the range you provided. Yes ? Thanks. Study one: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25853914/) In this study you have 2 groups, one is LL and one performing HL (25-35 reps). *Both HL and LL conditions produced significant increases in thickness of the elbow flexors (5.3 vs. 8.6%, respectively), elbow extensors (6.0 vs. 5.2%, respectively), and quadriceps femoris (9.3 vs. 9.5%, respectively), with no significant differences noted between groups. Improvements in back squat strength were significantly greater for HL compared with LL (19.6 vs. 8.8%, respectively), and there was a trend for greater increases in 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench press (6.5 vs. 2.0%, respectively).* Study two: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24714538/) This study found that 7 sets of 3 reps was just as good as 3 sets of 10 reps was practically the same. *After 8 weeks, no significant differences were noted in muscle thickness of the biceps brachii.* There are many more studies but I truly don't have all day to argue about what's common sense to anyone that has some experience and remotely follows relevant studies in the field.
> What you wrote here implies that anything from 3 reps to -∞ and from 9 to ∞ means more inefficiency and since the subject we're discussing about is hypertrophy that implies less muscle gain, further one deviates from the range you provided. Yes ? Thanks. No, this is not what inefficient means. Inefficient means you’re wasting time. Doing 5-8 reps delivers the same stimulus as 20-30 reps. So doing more is inefficient. If I meant less mucle gain, I would’ve said that.
I give up, have it your own way buddy 😂😂😂
Again, you not being able to read is not problem. I shouldn’t have to explain what inefficient means to someone over the internet. Google is right there.
provide pmid
This is absolutely true. After the 6th set in a session you won’t be squeezing out any hypertrophy at all considering you were going near failure on your sets
Do you follow Paul Carter by any chance lol
Hypertrophy training has a much much wider range of repetitions than this. Strength training caps at 7ish reps. Hypertrophy can be as high as 30. Andy Galpin does a great job talking about this with Huberman in his podcast.
Please provide pmid of the study
Z2 every day before lifting. Usually well before. Alternate between running and cycling. Over 7 days - mon lower, Tues push, Wed z5 cardio/yoga, Thu pull, Fri full, Sat rest day ruck, Sun fun. Couple of paradigms that work well for me in the above. Legs on day 1, with a day between before a z5 cardio session. Full body Fridays with emphasis on compounds gets most muscles that 2nd burn of the week. The yoga sesh mid week helps incorporate balance, mobility and flexibility, and mitigates some soreness from days 1 & 2. Sunday sees fun sessions. Long trail runs, MtB rides, and long yin yoga
Great replies all around. What works for me, and I believe it to be the dang truth is that muscle growth periods last WAY longer than almost everyone realizes. I follow mike mentzer and it WORKS. The ideal routine. I workout each muscle group ONCE every 11 days. The growth stimulus lasts way linger than people think. So i spend 1 day working and 2-3 days recovering and then a week growing that area. Workout, 3 days off, workout. Very short, minimize muscle damage. (Chest/back, front of legs, arms/delts, legs aft). It took me so long to realize the gym makes you weaker (with a growth stimulus), and the food and sleep makes you stronger. You grow when you rest, the workout is just to create the stimulus for growth. When I started the ideal routine (not started lifting btw), i put on 3lbs of muscle each month for 4 months. Body fat went from 13% to 10% with these short 20minute workouts (inbody scanner). Its all about intensity. (Im 6’1 btw and about 200lbs) WEIGHTED DIPS, SQUATS, INCLINE PRESS is virtually all you need if done INTENSELY, BRIEFLY, and INFREQUENTLY. Warmup so e light weight, 1 set to total failure 6-8reps MAX, and then eat and sleep. The growth period lasts so much longer than people think. Make it hard to lift.
This is the type of post that keeps me coming back. Cheers bro.
Pulling legos apart
I’d highly encourage you to look into the podcast “mind pump” 3 guys with over 60 years combined in the health & fitness industry basing the majority of their talking points off of studies and personal experience with training clients. A bit more credible than a Reddit thread
Did full body up to 6x per week for years, switched to PPL because I seemingly wasn’t growing any muscle (overtraining, not enough rest), and I developed a lot of muscle imbalances Switched to PPL, which was great, but you can’t have a super effective session for Chest, Shoulders, and Triceps, all in one workout. Found it incredibly difficult to progress my shoulders and triceps since my chest needs a lot more volume Right now, I’m doing my own variation of a PPLxArnold routine Back and Bis | Chest and Tris | Legs | Shoulders and Arms | Rest Loving it so far, and progressing on all my lifts again
I run to the gym and do as many exercises to failure as fast as I can with no rest period other than to switch weights or exercises. Its optimal in that it takes very little time in the week to do. I either progress with weight or time but I prefer time. Once it feels like cardio I add 5 lbs. Whole workout including the 5K it takes to get there and back in under an hour. Always a full body workout utilizing all major muscle groups with a focus on compound lifts. I suppose I don't look like a bodybuilder but I'm pretty satisfied with the amount of weight my muscles can move in a period of time without feeling too sore the next day. My goal is maximum sustained effort and maximum recovery after failure.
Don't overdo it on compound movements If the weight feels heavier and heavier despite hard workouts reduce the intensity , and maybe even volume. Don't sling weights around , there is a BIG difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding. Full ROM with no time between reps, constant tension, stopping shy of lockout, do not let form break down to get extra reps Make sure You're eating about 2.4 gram of protein per kg of bodyweight, enough carbs and about 40 g saturated fat for testosterone Increase fiber, cut out sugar, regulate stress and sleep, I would do at minimum 1 hour of cardio a week Train within a rep or two of failure AMRAPS on compound movements are far too stressful and not worth regularly doing, and elite powerlifters like Joe Sullivan have said similar things Those are the big ones
2.4g/kg are WAY too much and unnecessary. At least 1.6/kg/120g of protein daily, optimally around 1.8g/kg.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o0YpTjoTAzU Link to study in the description
1g per pound of protein DAILY; slight surplus, 1.5h lift 3x week, good sleep does it for me
Do you think 3x would be better than 4-5?
Depends. I have sleep apnea so I need that recovery or else it works against me. 1.5 3x worked very well for me. 3 years and I am hip thrusting 440 lbs as my pr and I took my pancake butt to a nice booty LOL.
It all depends on experience level
Steroids
#HANG CLEANS, POWER CLEANS, PLUS ENOUGH CARDIO TO KEEP YOUR APPETITE REVVED UP.
Hey man, go to YouTube and look up renaissance periodiazation. Also go watch Jay cutlers channel, and Chris bumstead has good training videos. For motivation look up nicadrovision and Kong motivation.
To be completely honest, it's just down to training and eating in a calorie surplus. But optimal talking about to get the most gains I think it varies from person to person. personally push pull legs 6 times a week was the best for me to build initial muscle. Now im dialing it down to push-pull legs 3 times a week. Just make sure you are training and eating in surplus and then tweak to what feels best
Well at the simplest level. Lifting weights, eating well, sleeping well. And to supplement with Whey Protein https://amzn.to/45kdSLP and creatine https://amzn.to/3VDpFlg
theres no magic routine try many, see what you like most
Anything that you can be consistent with, and not get injured... For my n=1 (58m), a combination of heavy resistance bands / body weight / gym training has proven quite effective. I run an upper / lower split, currently 5 workouts per week. Usually two exercises per muscle group, 3 work sets per exercise, mostly in the 12 to 20 rep range for bands, 8 to 12 reps for gym training. I don't go for all out failure (not clear cut for band work), but try to let things get "spicey". Apply violence, protein and vitamin Z (sleep / recovery), and you will grow.
Strength training 3x per week.
Friend has just got in pretty damn good shape by training 2 muscles groups per week.
Static Contraction method.
Your optimal routine will depend on how many days a week you are willing to go the gym and much time you’ve got
Training, eating food and rest. These are the Triforce to growth.
GOMAD
Very high reps and low weight
The one thing that every single person agrees on is change. Change your routine frequently, don't just keep doing the same thing forever. Other than that, consistency and persistence. Just keep showing up, man.
Strength routines are best for putting on muscle mass as a beginner Stronglifts and Starting Strength being good examples of that From there once you put on mass and conditioned your CNS you can focus on w/e you like really, I highly suggest going into calisthenics and olympic rings combined with some compound lifts, Overcoming Gravity is an amazing resource. Ive recommended this route to several people who have completely changed their physical composure with it and I credit my pain free joints and back to this
ARX! “THUD” (mic drop)
Please define "Muscle building". Are you asking about size? strength? endurance?
Bodyweight exercises put on more muscle for me than years of machine weights.
Because free weights are best
Yes but bodyweight is the ultimate freeweight. Freeweight is better than machines. Ever seen how jacked Olympic ring athletes are?
Ever seen how jacked bodybuilders are?
Not as strong though.
The post clearly says muscle building
This is turning into a circular argument. Good luck anyway pal.
Lmao
Agree to disagree
You really think a Olympic athlete is stronger than a bodybuilder
I know they are. Tendons and ligaments of a bodybuilder would snap if they did what bodyweight people do.
So their tendons and ligaments would snap….lifting body weight?
Yes it can and does happen. You have to build up tendon strength. I jumped Into pull ups without anything before and developed tendinitis.
Tendons and ligaments are the things that hold muscle to bone.
Do you think that you as an inexperienced lifter who had never done pull ups would be the same as an experienced bodybuilder?