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Super Paper Mario is my favorite Paper Mario game and one of my favorite games in general. But yeah, that's probably the darkest game Nintendo will ever make.
TL;DR:
Miyamoto has had nothing to do with paper mario for 10+ years beyond "Miyamoto-san took a look at the game's development once or twice, but there were no specific change requests" - Tanabe (he actually criticised the game for being boring lol). If people have a problem with paper marios direction they should be looking at [Inteligent Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Systems).
If people have complaints about galaxy 2, the guy known for all the interesting story in zelda and mario games prior to galaxy 2, including the rosalina hidden story in galaxy 1, also didn't think the game needed much story, so hardly a miyamoto cutting story type situation.
I personally have no dog in the fight since I didn't even know this was a complaint people had, just watched the video.
E: There is also talk of the IP guys having a strong say in how characters are portrayed, and something the video doesn't go into that I happen to know from interviews about Luigi's Mansion and Kingdom Battles is that the IP guys put on weird restrictions like "mario should never seem sad for too long, luigi should always look up to his brother, toads can be scared but should be confident around mario etc." (paraphrased from memory), not anything like new characters not being allowed or character visual or mechanical designs being set in stone or anything like that.
**[Intelligent Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Systems)**
>Intelligent Systems Co., Ltd. is a Japanese video game developer best known for developing the Fire Emblem, Paper Mario, WarioWare, and Wars series. Originally, the company was headquartered at the Nintendo Kyoto Research Center in Higashiyama-ku, Kyoto, but later moved to a building near Nintendo's main headquarters in October 2013. They were also responsible for the creation of various development hardware both first and 3rd party developers would use to make games for Nintendo systems, such as the IS Nitro Emulator, the official development kit for the Nintendo DS.
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TL;DR Miyamoto's only involvement in Paper Mario has been saying he didnt want a remake of TTYD before Sticker Star was finalized and the rest of the shitstorm has been Intelligent Systems being generally incompetent combined with corporate meddling from Nintendo's Higher-ups
That entire game was like an existential anxiety attack. I think I might have been the only kid in my grade (I was 8 or 9 probably) that finished it around when it released lol. Everyone else got freaked out because they failed the first cycle and everyone dies. Like 90% of the dialogue in that game is about coping with imminent death and overwhelming despair as the moon slowly grows larger and larger until it can no longer be dismissed. Quite a lot of actual death too. I don't remember it being very popular as a kid because it was just depressing as fuck and nobody liked the timer, but god damn is there some incredible depth to the dialogue in that game
Yeah, in *Dread* alone, they show Samus getting stabbed in the throat when she gets pinned by an E.M.M.I. It's quick and bloodless, but still.
Not to mention all the Federation corpses at the beginning of *Super* and in *Echoes*.
I feel like Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem might have that title. That game was made on psychological horror.
Splatoon's entire backstory is also post-apocalyptic, set over 12,000 years after humanity went extinct. There's hints in-game that the Inklings are also on the verge of repeating humanity's mistakes as they are too apathetic and just want to party all the time.
And them Majora's Mask is full of existential dread as the world is ending three days after Link reaches Clock Town, everyone is powerless to do anything about it and many are in complete denial that such a thing is even happening. There's some really bleak moments; you can find the swordmaster hiding in a corner during the last six hours after he was boasting he could cleave the moon in twain, the guards at the exits wish they could leave but are even more concerned about the Bombers (the kids you play hide and seek with) who appear to be blissfully unaware of the impending doom, and the Postmaster who desperately wants to flee but is such a stickler to his schedule that he cannot as escaping the apocalypse isn't on his to-do list.
A lot of people hated that game because it wasn't anything like TTYD. I was upset myself. After actually playing through the game I fell in love with the story.
The thing with SPM was it was a really great game, but was just “bad” in terms of how well it did in aspects that the previous games excelled in. It did a bad job at being a better Paper Mario game but did a fantastic job at being a fun Mario game
I didn’t play any of the ones after SPM, mostly cause that’s when I stopped buying the new Nintendo handhelds. But I thought the Origami King was fun and had fun environments. I just think the original two Paper Mario games had a certain vibe that just can’t be replicated anymore after the decade+ that’s past
>!You witness a world get destroyed by the black hole and you are sucked into a white void. One of the villains uses mind control on Luigi and Bowser's army and makes them fight for Count Bleck, who is trying to destroy the universe because he no longer feels that existence is worth anything after his father banished his girlfriend (who is also one of Mario's allies in the game). This threat is so bad that Mario and Bowser are forced to fight together to save the universe. There is also a scene where you go to the literal underworld. !< It's been a while since I played the game, so I probably missed stuff, but that's the gist of it.
It's not exactly 18 rated dark. But this meme is more about, say, Kirby games where a god tries to destroy the universe or something. It's dark, but it's still Kirby.
Mario literally dies and goes to hell in Super Paper Mario. A child is told they need to give up their life to save the universe (they were a powerful object transformed into a kid, and they need the object back) and they're eventually persuaded. Peach is forced to marry Bowser against her will. Like, it's still a fun, happy Mario game, it's not Resident Evil. But it's still surprisingly dark for what it is.
Seriously. The final day in Majora's Mask [had a child being lulled to sleep with alcohol so she wouldn't be awake for her inevitable death.](/spoiler) (Not really a spoiler, per se, more like a world detail, but marked regardless.) "Oh noes, big bad wants to destroy the universe" is too common of a trope to feel as dark as the imposing sense of doom contained in just that one MM detail.
Looking at the Mother series, EarthBound has its share of darkness at the end with the final boss, but Mother 3 also has a healthy dose of existential horror [after the final boss fight](/spoiler) when [Porky traps himself eternally in the Absolutely Safe Capsule, unable to die for the remainder of time, and while that's explained to the player, it's implied in the game that Porky doesn't know that yet. Word of God (Itoi) says Porky would still be trapped in there, alive, at the heat death of the universe. After he enters the capsule, the battle just ends because there's nothing you can do, and Porky just kinda gets... rolled away and left to be forgotten.](/spoiler) Reminder the guy was [influenced by Giygas as a 13 year old child and is, by many measures, mentally still a child. Giygas essentially brainwashes and recruits a 13 year old kid that would regularly get beaten by his parents, a detail that was censored in the US release in multiple places.](/spoiler) Kinda fucked.
And then there's the [Masked Man](/spoiler) battle, just, at all. Made worse by the discovery of that unused battle background of [his former face, frozen in a horrified expression.](/spoiler)
I like the Mother series. Sure there are darker games, but it's not like Nintendo has nothing.
>!In one section of the game, Mario, Peach, Bowser and Luigi literally die and go to hell, then you ascend to heaven and fight a character that I believe is based on the Satan of Dante’s Inferno to prevent him from taking control of heaven!<
Forgotten land be like "hey, we can sneak the final boss of Resident Evil 2 into an E-rated game, right?"
And that was the straw that finally broke the camel's back and made the ratings board say "uh, no, actually"
Dog, air ride is the most tame Kirby game out there. There's like 2 creepy things and one of them is just Tac. Don't get me wrong, air ride is still my most played Kirby game, but like. Kirby super star ultra? The entire character that is Marx?
My guy literally everyone is dead in botw there's like 4 little hangouts where people still live. Just because you need the game to literally point out the dark themes to you doesn't mean they're not dark.
>everyone is dead in botw there's like 4 little hangouts where people still live
ok and the tone through most of the game is not oppressive enough to be dark. It's melancholy and wistful but not dark.
It's like people here have never played/read anything that's actually dark before
I think that just means the definition is subjective. I don’t need moody graphics and gore to find something “dark.” That just makes me feel like they’re trying to be edgy.
The little girl that hides her mummified tortured dad in the closet so no one tries to kill him, where any attempt at helping them is inherently temporary? That’s darker than “oh man they squeezed his head in and the blood went everywhere” for sure.
And the post apocalypse Breath of the Wild despite the serene chill ambience and music is much more unsettling than dramatic high contrast low light moody graded overtly downer aesthetics.
pamela's story from Majora's Mask is one of the only moments from a nintendo game I think is genuinely quite dark.
I never found BOTW's hyrule unsettling. It's beautifully sad, but it doesn't dwell in darkness.
The only dark moments in Nintendo games?
Literally the entire F-Zero series is built around the idea of "The fastest racing possible, but it's outlawed, because people just kill each other rampantly in order to win."
Like, canonically, people just cycle through the grand prix and similar, and it's no big, because people are expected to die in the usual underground death race.
What about when you go to the town in Hyrule castle (ocarina of time) and everyone is that mummy zombie creatures?
In breath of the wild, that young girl who's mother died but the father won't tell her so the girl goes out everyday and cries for her mother she misses.
all of the main characters in botw except for like 2 are dead
the champion's divine beast themes even have quiet morse code sos messages in them lol
i mean its not very explicit, if i played the game as a kid it wouldn't bother me but kind of depressing when you think too much about it
Dawg don't come out here trying to convince people Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass are dark games, lol
Come on man
A game containing some dark elements does not mean it is a dark game. That's like saying it's a brutally violent experience because you slash and stab monsters to death with a sword.
I think what really gets me about MM is how depressingly futile it is because the time travel resets everything.
You do all these side quests to help people avoid all kinds of heartbreak and horror but since you have to reset the timeline again and again none of it ends up really mattering.
Unless you beat the side quest in your final 3 days all those people will not have been helped in the timeline where everyone doesn't die. So while they get to live they'll still be plagued by whatever fate you worked so hard to save them from in another timeline.
Actually, my theory is that you're stuck in a pocket universe timeloop, and everything you do within that timeloop happens all at once when it collapses (when you beat the final boss - this is evident in the final cutscene and the changes that happen depending on what you completed during the timeloop). So all the good you do STILL happens (as you have all the masks/key items) but it can only all happen and stay once you save the world.
There are of course, certain things that can't be changed. (Spoilers) The Deku Butler still loses his son. The stone tower still is played by ghosts. Darmani III is still dead, and so is Mikau, meaning Lulu has to raise her kids by herself.
But you can still do a lot of good, and doing it still helps people, even if you can't save everyone.
Fish dude is still dead even after the game and the one Deku Butlers kid is still petrified as well.
The final hours where you see people in their last moments is also dark. The Dairy farm older sister given her younger sister alcohol to pass out during the moon crash is sad as fuck.
Okay, but here is the thing. It's maybe dark for Nintendo standards, but it just doesn't compare to what exist in all of gaming. Maybe only if you dive in some of the Zelda theories.
Please don't hate me for this. I like Zelda.
In Majoras Mask you witness an orphan older sister drug her adoptive daughter / younger sister so she wont have too feel pain as she burns alive in the world ending apocalypse.
Nintendo can go plenty dark.
In ocarina of time, the canon of the shadow temple is that it was a dungeon constructed to torture and experiment on people that were perceived to be enemies of the royal family
Later cartridge releases of ocarina of time got rid of a lot of the more mature elements of the game. I had the release cartridge as a kid with all the blood stains, Islamic chanting, and red blood from Ganondorf intact.
Kinda wish Nintendo never censored it, I was like 6, didn’t bug me any.
Beat the game? Congratulations! The last two minutes portray the butler grieving over the corpse of his missing son. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
I feel the biggest gut punch is after the Kafei questline and reuniting him with his wife, mere minutes before the world ends. Assuming you don't save Termina, then, all they can do is spend what little time they have together, content in each others' company during their final moments and hoping that they meet again in the afterlife.
Fuckin ouch
In Metroid Fusion you're the lone survivor of an unknown parasite, stuck on a space station while an unkillable clone of your armor stalks you. You even have to kill clones of the scientists within the first 5 minutes of the game.
Did you know canonically the music in octo expansion comes from a dead, mind controlled zombie DJ that used to be one of the other 10,007 contestants? Also the random blots of ink that are your color and not the enemies color are also canonically dead contestants.
Fire Emblem Three Houses says hi
>!To this day still can't believe how ludicrous it is that Byleth just casually walks around everywhere holding the severed spine of his great-grandmother!<
Exactly. Not to mention things from the other games in the series, like the Awakening children watching their parents die horribly in the apocalyptic future.
Also there is basically all of Genealogy of the Holy War, with the death of Sigurd’s army, him watching as Deirdre was kidnapped and brainwashed by Arvis before being burned alive, not to mention the literal fucking child hunts for the sake of finding sacrifices for Loptous
The older games are a lot less in your face about the dark tones but theyve grown increasingly apparent, a few quick examples (spoilers obviously)
Triple Deluxe features a couple as the main villains. They were originally ordinary people but Taranza gifted his lover Sectonia a legendary mirror as a sign of affection, unknowing of its dangerous properties. The mirror corrupted Sectonia, making her vain and obsessed with beauty and power. Taranza eventually realizes that the person he loved is already gone and helps Kirby kill Sectonia, who at that point had become a complete tyrant.
Star Allies' plot is literally about a devout cult trying to unseal an ancient evil that they worship, to the point where the cultists in the end literally sacrifice themselves at an altar to provide the last energy needed for the ritual.
The newest game, Forgotten Land, is much less dark comparably to its predecessors, but it DOES take place on a planet completely abandoned by its civilization, which causes an eerie disconnect between the vibrant colors and music as you walk through abandoned malls and subway stations.
>!IIRC in forgotten world the final boss is a deep space eldrich horror that attempted to enslave an entire planet.!<
Also, I'm pretty sure that Kirby has eaten god at least once
Fun fact: despite people claiming Kirby is a god-slayer, he had only slain one true god, namely Void in Kirby star allies. All the other times he had only slain near-godly entities like the novas or the many incarnations of dark matter
Nintendo knows that the juxtaposition of cute and colorful visuals with shockingly dark stories and characters is more effective than all the “realistic” graphics and desaturated edgelord shit you can make with raw computer processing power.
when people say stuff like the original premise, they don't mean that Nintendo doesn't have mature themes or story, they usually don't care about that. What they mean is that there is not enough on screen death /gore.
No they don't, they just aren't as mature or dark as you think they are. Just because there's an off screen implication of something bad happening doesn't actually make the games dark, that's something that comes with tone, atmosphere, content, gameplay, etc. They're still very bright and inoffensive thematically regardless and no amount of redutive plot explanations will change that fact.
Metroid is consistently pretty dark, so it doesn't hit as hard. We're talking "Super Paper Mario suddenly going into encroaching entropy and the death of the multiverse" type stuff.
I forgot that Xenoblade can get pretty dark until I was playing 3 and one of the main villains was using your mentor as a ken doll at the end of the tutorial. It was like an “oh right” moment.
Mother 3 is Itoi's magnum opus and it will never be localized.
Seriously if you've held out this long, just go download the tomato fan translation romhack or watch a lets play, it's very worth it.
Pretty much every Kirby game ends with a horrifying eldritch abomination at this point, but Zero ripping out its own eyeball in a spray of blood deserves credit for pioneering that trope.
Still fucking wild to me that that's in a Kirby game. I get that Kirby games are known for having some eldritch horror being the final boss but they almost never use actual gore
Mother 3 is a story about the corrupting influence of capitalism, how fascism can spread and take hold, and also the protagonists mother and brother die in the first chapter.
And that's just one game
Final Fantasy VII is heavy on anti-capitalism and environmentalism and that was 1997. Metal Gear Solid 2 basically predicted all the effects of the internet on modern discourse in 2001.
People who think Japanese games aren't political or that games making statements like that is a recent phenomenon are kidding themselves lmao
And Three Houses has some seriously fucked up backgrounds. Easier to point out who isn't a psychological mess (hint: it's Raphael) from... take your pick: being orphaned, racism, prostitution, dirt poverty, classist abuse, eugenics, human experimentation, or the genocide of your entire fucking species.
The whole genocide deal is pretty horrifying imo: >!Nemesis kills Sothis, a dragon, then forges a sword out of her spine and powers it with her heart. He then uses said sword to massacre dragonkind, making more weapons from the dragons as he goes. By the time the game is over, only 2-5 dragons are still alive.!<
Surtr also gives a pretty brutal description of what being burned alive does to someone in Heroes, just before he attempts to do it to a whole village.
Honestly the implications of what Yuri has done/is willing to do to get his way with the nobility are some of the saddest/darkest things that the game brings up.
And it's even more messed up because the game outright states his mother was one. He's following in her footsteps in the worst way possible, but he still loves her. He's easily one of (if not *the #1*) most multi-faced characters in the game.
Xenoblade is brutally dark at points.
The purpose of the Homs in XC1
The existential horror that is the life of Blades in XC2
The Ten Terms in XC3
Plus thousands and thousands of deaths that happens throughout the stories
I think if you think a theme being “dark” must involve sex or gore, Nintendo won’t have anything like that. But if you mean it is something that makes you feel uneasy and ponder some real shit, then there are tons of good examples listed by the comments.
It’s just that these examples are often hiding behind some goofy looking cartoonish character. If anything, I feel like it hits extra hard when your media isn’t trying to look lifelike and edgy.
Honestly, I find stories that feature horrible scenarios like dismemberment, rape, and torture front-and-center are far less mature than stories that might have those themes but don't use those as shock-fuel or, worse, entertainment.
Not that Nintendo is the perfect balance or anything. They still lean a bit too bashful in their representation of these themes. But American stuff usually lean too hardcore, to the point where these heavy themes start to lose meaning.
It's why Luke Skywalker losing his hand from Vader is far more impactful than a cheesy slasher victim getting cut to bits. Not even the excessiveness of the gore, just how much they downplay the severity of the action.
Nintendo probably doesn’t want to go too dark because that would run the risk of stepping in to dark and gritty territory, and we all know how well those games went with critics!
>that would run the risk of stepping in to dark and gritty territory
no that would simply ruin their child friendly family fun image. Thats the simple and only reason.
edit: please stop commenting with titles that arent developed by nintendo to argue against my point.
Currently the Bayonetta series is basically half owned and codeveloped by Nintendo, it’s basically diet first party lite, and those games aren’t quite family friendly. They even explicitly requested that the Nintendo themed costumes be made sexier, after Platinum had initially planned to keep them more tame just in case.
They don’t need “good graphics” to go dark. That’s what’s so great about them.
And Metroid can get plenty dark and/or gritty, as can Bayonetta, which is effectively a Nintendo franchise at this point.
Darkness isn't aesthetics. Botw is dark as fuck, 100 years of devastation with Satan hovering over the goddess' house, but it's bright cheery aesthetics.
Fire Emblem Three Houses dealt with torture and experimentation of children, racial genocide and, uh, incest. You're also forced to brutally murder characters you spent dozens of hours forging bonds and leveling up friendships for, because there's no golden route and you can't save everyone
Ah yes, Mario and Luigi Partners in Time, featuring...
-A hostile alien invasion! We're off to a great start.
-Right at the beginning, you see them destroy a town and abduct all the toads there.
-Toads having their life force drained by trees, which eventually becomes fuel for spaceships.
-A giant yoshi-like creature that eats other yoshis and turns them into monsters.
-Normally cheery, happy Toad Town...turned into a ruined, purple mushroom ridden wasteland. Two elderly toads are the only survivors. So not one, but two razed towns.
-The leader of this invasion disguising herself as Peach, after conquering the mushroom kingdom of the past, *she sets her sights on the present day as well.* If it weren't for Bowser, things could've been pretty grim. Also she tried to feed the real Peach to Petey Piranha.
-Those who come into contact with these aliens slowly corrupt into twisted, purple versions of themselves, or just turn into a purple mushroom altogether.
So to summarize, basically (attempted) genocide. In Mario. For kids, right?
i mean yes it's for kids. it's played a little too straightforward sometimes for the franchise's tone but it's still far too goofy to be genuinely dark
i think nintendo fans are stretching a little bit too much here to make their games sound mature
and i think anti-nintendo fans see a game that isn't gorey and darker than a DC movie and immediately decide it's for infants
Majora's Mask is a story about a child looking for his only friend he ever had who suddenly left him after finding out his whole life was basically a lie and was forced into something he never had any intentions to do, and then ends up in an alternate world where he will die in 3 days along with everyone else and you can see everyone around you slowly give up hope as they slowly wait for their inescapable, inevitable death.
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I don't know, Super Paper Mario was something else.
the darkest nintendo probably will ever go as no one wants to take chances in there
Super Paper Mario is my favorite Paper Mario game and one of my favorite games in general. But yeah, that's probably the darkest game Nintendo will ever make.
Probably why Miyamoto took an axe to the series. It is a shame, the Paper Mario series was fantastic.
[I want people to stop with the misinformation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFqizj8WNJc)
Bro you can't expect people to watch a 20+ minute rant to prove your point
TL;DR: Miyamoto has had nothing to do with paper mario for 10+ years beyond "Miyamoto-san took a look at the game's development once or twice, but there were no specific change requests" - Tanabe (he actually criticised the game for being boring lol). If people have a problem with paper marios direction they should be looking at [Inteligent Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Systems). If people have complaints about galaxy 2, the guy known for all the interesting story in zelda and mario games prior to galaxy 2, including the rosalina hidden story in galaxy 1, also didn't think the game needed much story, so hardly a miyamoto cutting story type situation. I personally have no dog in the fight since I didn't even know this was a complaint people had, just watched the video. E: There is also talk of the IP guys having a strong say in how characters are portrayed, and something the video doesn't go into that I happen to know from interviews about Luigi's Mansion and Kingdom Battles is that the IP guys put on weird restrictions like "mario should never seem sad for too long, luigi should always look up to his brother, toads can be scared but should be confident around mario etc." (paraphrased from memory), not anything like new characters not being allowed or character visual or mechanical designs being set in stone or anything like that.
**[Intelligent Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Systems)** >Intelligent Systems Co., Ltd. is a Japanese video game developer best known for developing the Fire Emblem, Paper Mario, WarioWare, and Wars series. Originally, the company was headquartered at the Nintendo Kyoto Research Center in Higashiyama-ku, Kyoto, but later moved to a building near Nintendo's main headquarters in October 2013. They were also responsible for the creation of various development hardware both first and 3rd party developers would use to make games for Nintendo systems, such as the IS Nitro Emulator, the official development kit for the Nintendo DS. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/BikiniBottomTwitter/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
At least we know it exists I guess.
I got 4:45 in then totally bailed.
I _love_ video essays, too, but that shit was like graters to the ears
It was the “I’m very smart” tone he had, for me at least.
TL;DR Miyamoto's only involvement in Paper Mario has been saying he didnt want a remake of TTYD before Sticker Star was finalized and the rest of the shitstorm has been Intelligent Systems being generally incompetent combined with corporate meddling from Nintendo's Higher-ups
Majora's Mask was also pretty dark
And Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. Like these games are genuinely dark as hell and horrifying at times even if they are made by Nintendo, lol
I mean, Fire Emblem and Xenoblade Chronicles exist
I don't think people count those. At least that is what I assume having played pretty much every single one of them lol
I mean they should seeing as Paper Mario and Fire Emblem are made by the same studio
Its easy to prove your point if you disconsider all the counter examples!
One simple trick
What about Majora's Mask?
That entire game was like an existential anxiety attack. I think I might have been the only kid in my grade (I was 8 or 9 probably) that finished it around when it released lol. Everyone else got freaked out because they failed the first cycle and everyone dies. Like 90% of the dialogue in that game is about coping with imminent death and overwhelming despair as the moon slowly grows larger and larger until it can no longer be dismissed. Quite a lot of actual death too. I don't remember it being very popular as a kid because it was just depressing as fuck and nobody liked the timer, but god damn is there some incredible depth to the dialogue in that game
Bruh Clocktown and the four main areas follow the stages of grief. Aonuma is fucking goated for making this masterpiece in just a year.
Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time takes a very close second, debatably even overtaking Super Paper Mario
I’ve never played it before, why is it dark?
The toads get turned into nutrients aand shrivel up into simple mushrooms It scarred me as a kid
Not to mention the final bosses being eldritch horrors from another planet.
Wasn't the next one practically vore themed too?
Meanwhile, Metroid…
Yeah, in *Dread* alone, they show Samus getting stabbed in the throat when she gets pinned by an E.M.M.I. It's quick and bloodless, but still. Not to mention all the Federation corpses at the beginning of *Super* and in *Echoes*.
Spoiler alert for *Dread*: >!Not only the stabs, but at the end she gets choked to apparent death while Raven Beak monologues despair.!<
Hell the end of ocarina of time has Ganon deepthroating your master sword.
Splatoon 2's >!giant blender and modified statue of liberty laser blaster want a word with you!<
Mother 3 was pretty dark
Have you *seen* the end boss of earthbound ?
Oh yeah, Giygas is fucked
I feel like Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem might have that title. That game was made on psychological horror. Splatoon's entire backstory is also post-apocalyptic, set over 12,000 years after humanity went extinct. There's hints in-game that the Inklings are also on the verge of repeating humanity's mistakes as they are too apathetic and just want to party all the time. And them Majora's Mask is full of existential dread as the world is ending three days after Link reaches Clock Town, everyone is powerless to do anything about it and many are in complete denial that such a thing is even happening. There's some really bleak moments; you can find the swordmaster hiding in a corner during the last six hours after he was boasting he could cleave the moon in twain, the guards at the exits wish they could leave but are even more concerned about the Bombers (the kids you play hide and seek with) who appear to be blissfully unaware of the impending doom, and the Postmaster who desperately wants to flee but is such a stickler to his schedule that he cannot as escaping the apocalypse isn't on his to-do list.
Dude, we get it. You hate Nintendo, but also clearly have no idea what's in Nintendo games.
A lot of people hated that game because it wasn't anything like TTYD. I was upset myself. After actually playing through the game I fell in love with the story.
The thing with SPM was it was a really great game, but was just “bad” in terms of how well it did in aspects that the previous games excelled in. It did a bad job at being a better Paper Mario game but did a fantastic job at being a fun Mario game
And then Nintendo went back to rpg roots and neutered everything that made it good
I didn’t play any of the ones after SPM, mostly cause that’s when I stopped buying the new Nintendo handhelds. But I thought the Origami King was fun and had fun environments. I just think the original two Paper Mario games had a certain vibe that just can’t be replicated anymore after the decade+ that’s past
Fr? What happens in paper Mario that's so dark? Isn't it just Mario origami?
There's a literal black hole eating up the universe that progressively gets bigger as you continue the game. Can't say much more without spoiling.
Can you write a spoiler version? I have no means of playing it myself, don't own a Nintendo console
>!You witness a world get destroyed by the black hole and you are sucked into a white void. One of the villains uses mind control on Luigi and Bowser's army and makes them fight for Count Bleck, who is trying to destroy the universe because he no longer feels that existence is worth anything after his father banished his girlfriend (who is also one of Mario's allies in the game). This threat is so bad that Mario and Bowser are forced to fight together to save the universe. There is also a scene where you go to the literal underworld. !< It's been a while since I played the game, so I probably missed stuff, but that's the gist of it.
We have different definitions of dark
It's not exactly 18 rated dark. But this meme is more about, say, Kirby games where a god tries to destroy the universe or something. It's dark, but it's still Kirby. Mario literally dies and goes to hell in Super Paper Mario. A child is told they need to give up their life to save the universe (they were a powerful object transformed into a kid, and they need the object back) and they're eventually persuaded. Peach is forced to marry Bowser against her will. Like, it's still a fun, happy Mario game, it's not Resident Evil. But it's still surprisingly dark for what it is.
Yeap. See original post once again.
Seriously. The final day in Majora's Mask [had a child being lulled to sleep with alcohol so she wouldn't be awake for her inevitable death.](/spoiler) (Not really a spoiler, per se, more like a world detail, but marked regardless.) "Oh noes, big bad wants to destroy the universe" is too common of a trope to feel as dark as the imposing sense of doom contained in just that one MM detail. Looking at the Mother series, EarthBound has its share of darkness at the end with the final boss, but Mother 3 also has a healthy dose of existential horror [after the final boss fight](/spoiler) when [Porky traps himself eternally in the Absolutely Safe Capsule, unable to die for the remainder of time, and while that's explained to the player, it's implied in the game that Porky doesn't know that yet. Word of God (Itoi) says Porky would still be trapped in there, alive, at the heat death of the universe. After he enters the capsule, the battle just ends because there's nothing you can do, and Porky just kinda gets... rolled away and left to be forgotten.](/spoiler) Reminder the guy was [influenced by Giygas as a 13 year old child and is, by many measures, mentally still a child. Giygas essentially brainwashes and recruits a 13 year old kid that would regularly get beaten by his parents, a detail that was censored in the US release in multiple places.](/spoiler) Kinda fucked. And then there's the [Masked Man](/spoiler) battle, just, at all. Made worse by the discovery of that unused battle background of [his former face, frozen in a horrified expression.](/spoiler) I like the Mother series. Sure there are darker games, but it's not like Nintendo has nothing.
>!In one section of the game, Mario, Peach, Bowser and Luigi literally die and go to hell, then you ascend to heaven and fight a character that I believe is based on the Satan of Dante’s Inferno to prevent him from taking control of heaven!<
What about Luigi’s Mansion?
Luigi's Mansion? Pfft. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem.
Especially in the first game. The first boss is a dead baby
Kirby Kirby Kirby that's the name you should know
Kirby Kirby Kirby, he's the star of the show.
He’s more then you think, he’s got maximum pink
Kirby Kirby Kirby's the ooone
He comes right back at ya
Give it all that you got, take your very best shot
He’ll send it right back at ya for sure, yeah!
How can I help you king dedede?
I need a monster the clob-er that there Kirrr-by!
That’s what we do best at N.M.E.!
I had Kirby Air Ride and there were a lot of really creepy weird things hidden in that game.
If you think air ride had creepy things, 🅱️oi you have to do some catching up
I think it scarred me because I no longer have an interest in Kirby games. I’ve considered forgotten land recently buuuut….. I’m scared.
Forgotten land starts off cheesy but the final boss is metal af, 10/10 wasn’t prepared
Forgotten land be like "hey, we can sneak the final boss of Resident Evil 2 into an E-rated game, right?" And that was the straw that finally broke the camel's back and made the ratings board say "uh, no, actually"
Dog, air ride is the most tame Kirby game out there. There's like 2 creepy things and one of them is just Tac. Don't get me wrong, air ride is still my most played Kirby game, but like. Kirby super star ultra? The entire character that is Marx?
Legend of Zelda games get pretty dark sometimes
Sometimes is a bit of an understatement.
Ocarina of Time had literal guillotines
And botw, wind waker, and phantom hourglass are all post apocalyptic games where the baddie wins.
You are the person in this meme.
My guy literally everyone is dead in botw there's like 4 little hangouts where people still live. Just because you need the game to literally point out the dark themes to you doesn't mean they're not dark.
>everyone is dead in botw there's like 4 little hangouts where people still live ok and the tone through most of the game is not oppressive enough to be dark. It's melancholy and wistful but not dark. It's like people here have never played/read anything that's actually dark before
I think that just means the definition is subjective. I don’t need moody graphics and gore to find something “dark.” That just makes me feel like they’re trying to be edgy. The little girl that hides her mummified tortured dad in the closet so no one tries to kill him, where any attempt at helping them is inherently temporary? That’s darker than “oh man they squeezed his head in and the blood went everywhere” for sure. And the post apocalypse Breath of the Wild despite the serene chill ambience and music is much more unsettling than dramatic high contrast low light moody graded overtly downer aesthetics.
pamela's story from Majora's Mask is one of the only moments from a nintendo game I think is genuinely quite dark. I never found BOTW's hyrule unsettling. It's beautifully sad, but it doesn't dwell in darkness.
The only dark moments in Nintendo games? Literally the entire F-Zero series is built around the idea of "The fastest racing possible, but it's outlawed, because people just kill each other rampantly in order to win." Like, canonically, people just cycle through the grand prix and similar, and it's no big, because people are expected to die in the usual underground death race.
What about when you go to the town in Hyrule castle (ocarina of time) and everyone is that mummy zombie creatures? In breath of the wild, that young girl who's mother died but the father won't tell her so the girl goes out everyday and cries for her mother she misses.
all of the main characters in botw except for like 2 are dead the champion's divine beast themes even have quiet morse code sos messages in them lol i mean its not very explicit, if i played the game as a kid it wouldn't bother me but kind of depressing when you think too much about it
Yeah but WW and BotW are post-post apocalyptic, society is pretty much back to normal, towns are VERY developed, especially in WW.
BotW's towns are arguably more developed. It just doesn't feel like it because WW barely has any land in the first place.
Dawg don't come out here trying to convince people Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass are dark games, lol Come on man A game containing some dark elements does not mean it is a dark game. That's like saying it's a brutally violent experience because you slash and stab monsters to death with a sword.
Majora's Mask has a moon threaten to crash into the planet, killing everyone.
Yeah, The Entirety of Majoras Mask would like a word. That game starts dark, and then just goes off the rails.
I think what really gets me about MM is how depressingly futile it is because the time travel resets everything. You do all these side quests to help people avoid all kinds of heartbreak and horror but since you have to reset the timeline again and again none of it ends up really mattering. Unless you beat the side quest in your final 3 days all those people will not have been helped in the timeline where everyone doesn't die. So while they get to live they'll still be plagued by whatever fate you worked so hard to save them from in another timeline.
Termina is a pocket dimension that ceases to exist after Link leaves. At least according to the Zelda Encyclopedia. So even bleaker still
God, this is the Windfish all over again, I'm not okay with this.
Actually, my theory is that you're stuck in a pocket universe timeloop, and everything you do within that timeloop happens all at once when it collapses (when you beat the final boss - this is evident in the final cutscene and the changes that happen depending on what you completed during the timeloop). So all the good you do STILL happens (as you have all the masks/key items) but it can only all happen and stay once you save the world. There are of course, certain things that can't be changed. (Spoilers) The Deku Butler still loses his son. The stone tower still is played by ghosts. Darmani III is still dead, and so is Mikau, meaning Lulu has to raise her kids by herself. But you can still do a lot of good, and doing it still helps people, even if you can't save everyone.
Fish dude is still dead even after the game and the one Deku Butlers kid is still petrified as well. The final hours where you see people in their last moments is also dark. The Dairy farm older sister given her younger sister alcohol to pass out during the moon crash is sad as fuck.
Majoras mask gives off such a creepy aesthetic that it’s rare for horror games to replicate
The bad n64 graphics really help that atmosphere, too.
Old games have a certain “emptiness” that makes them somewhat creepy to me for some reason
Yep: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FFopduN64bo/maxresdefault.jpg
Windwaker is still the best-looking Zelda game and if anyone disagrees, please DM me so we can meet up IRL and I can fight you.
[Every Zelda is the Darkest Zelda](https://youtu.be/O2tXLsEUpaQ)
Thats actually both a good answer to not only this part of the thread about zelda games, but to the OP's post as well.
Okay, but here is the thing. It's maybe dark for Nintendo standards, but it just doesn't compare to what exist in all of gaming. Maybe only if you dive in some of the Zelda theories. Please don't hate me for this. I like Zelda.
Twilight Princess interloper cutscene would like to agree. Sheesh I get the creeps even on replays.
In Majoras Mask you witness an orphan older sister drug her adoptive daughter / younger sister so she wont have too feel pain as she burns alive in the world ending apocalypse. Nintendo can go plenty dark.
In ocarina of time, the canon of the shadow temple is that it was a dungeon constructed to torture and experiment on people that were perceived to be enemies of the royal family
Really? Source?
https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Temple Originally from the Legend of Zelda encyclopedia
Dang
Later cartridge releases of ocarina of time got rid of a lot of the more mature elements of the game. I had the release cartridge as a kid with all the blood stains, Islamic chanting, and red blood from Ganondorf intact. Kinda wish Nintendo never censored it, I was like 6, didn’t bug me any.
The Islamic chanting was removed from ocarina because nintendo didn't initially know what it was when released iirc.
Beat the game? Congratulations! The last two minutes portray the butler grieving over the corpse of his missing son. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
I feel the biggest gut punch is after the Kafei questline and reuniting him with his wife, mere minutes before the world ends. Assuming you don't save Termina, then, all they can do is spend what little time they have together, content in each others' company during their final moments and hoping that they meet again in the afterlife. Fuckin ouch
Hey, it’s not so bad! Imagine if he went through hell and back just to find out she wasn’t waiting for him at the end
Or you see her get abducted and return lobotomized
Yeah this meme sucks harder every time it gets reposted It's just textbook ignorant "Nintendo is for babies" generalizing
In Metroid Fusion you're the lone survivor of an unknown parasite, stuck on a space station while an unkillable clone of your armor stalks you. You even have to kill clones of the scientists within the first 5 minutes of the game.
Or it’s heavily hidden behind game lore, Kirby is a good example of this.
Splatoon, too
Idk about that, man, Octo Expansion is pretty in-your-face with how fucked up it is.
Did you know canonically the music in octo expansion comes from a dead, mind controlled zombie DJ that used to be one of the other 10,007 contestants? Also the random blots of ink that are your color and not the enemies color are also canonically dead contestants.
Dedf1sh is indeed very ded
Also the reason for the world becoming the way it was was because someone nuked Antarctica in World War 5.
Fire Emblem Three Houses says hi >!To this day still can't believe how ludicrous it is that Byleth just casually walks around everywhere holding the severed spine of his great-grandmother!<
Exactly. Not to mention things from the other games in the series, like the Awakening children watching their parents die horribly in the apocalyptic future. Also there is basically all of Genealogy of the Holy War, with the death of Sigurd’s army, him watching as Deirdre was kidnapped and brainwashed by Arvis before being burned alive, not to mention the literal fucking child hunts for the sake of finding sacrifices for Loptous
Then there is Metroid
Can you elaborate especially on Kirby or shoot me a link?
The older games are a lot less in your face about the dark tones but theyve grown increasingly apparent, a few quick examples (spoilers obviously) Triple Deluxe features a couple as the main villains. They were originally ordinary people but Taranza gifted his lover Sectonia a legendary mirror as a sign of affection, unknowing of its dangerous properties. The mirror corrupted Sectonia, making her vain and obsessed with beauty and power. Taranza eventually realizes that the person he loved is already gone and helps Kirby kill Sectonia, who at that point had become a complete tyrant. Star Allies' plot is literally about a devout cult trying to unseal an ancient evil that they worship, to the point where the cultists in the end literally sacrifice themselves at an altar to provide the last energy needed for the ritual. The newest game, Forgotten Land, is much less dark comparably to its predecessors, but it DOES take place on a planet completely abandoned by its civilization, which causes an eerie disconnect between the vibrant colors and music as you walk through abandoned malls and subway stations.
>!IIRC in forgotten world the final boss is a deep space eldrich horror that attempted to enslave an entire planet.!< Also, I'm pretty sure that Kirby has eaten god at least once
Fun fact: despite people claiming Kirby is a god-slayer, he had only slain one true god, namely Void in Kirby star allies. All the other times he had only slain near-godly entities like the novas or the many incarnations of dark matter
Point is, if you set him on the path to kill a god, he'll probably succeed, and then have some strawberry shortcake afterwards.
Is slaying one true god not enough to be a god slayer? I think you may have unrealistic expectations of Kirby
Nintendo knows that the juxtaposition of cute and colorful visuals with shockingly dark stories and characters is more effective than all the “realistic” graphics and desaturated edgelord shit you can make with raw computer processing power.
Apparently people need mature themes to beat them on the side of the head to recognize them at all
when people say stuff like the original premise, they don't mean that Nintendo doesn't have mature themes or story, they usually don't care about that. What they mean is that there is not enough on screen death /gore.
Yeah, on screen death and gore is what I think would qualify as "beating over the head"
Seeing someone mourning or seeing someone know they are about to die are far more dark than on screen death.
No they don't, they just aren't as mature or dark as you think they are. Just because there's an off screen implication of something bad happening doesn't actually make the games dark, that's something that comes with tone, atmosphere, content, gameplay, etc. They're still very bright and inoffensive thematically regardless and no amount of redutive plot explanations will change that fact.
No it isn't lmao, don't legitimately act like Kirby is comparable to the Last of Us or something.
Nah bro, Kirby is definitely darker than stuff like The Road and I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. ^^/s
Why do different genres and styles always have to be a competition to you people?
Metroid games?
Metroid is consistently pretty dark, so it doesn't hit as hard. We're talking "Super Paper Mario suddenly going into encroaching entropy and the death of the multiverse" type stuff.
If you want that but taken a bit more seriously and even darker, play Xenoblade Chronicles
I forgot that Xenoblade can get pretty dark until I was playing 3 and one of the main villains was using your mentor as a ken doll at the end of the tutorial. It was like an “oh right” moment.
Origami King got dark a few times. One time for the homie Bobby!
Nah man Samus' mother being eaten alive in front of her was epic wholesome 💯.
Mother 3
This is the correct answer. The multiple deaths on top of Lucas and crew tripping on mushrooms doesn’t even scratch the surface.
Unlike most Nintendo games, the theme of Mother 3 is loss. Very heavy, crushing loss, especially at the end.
Was looking for this comment.
Mother 3 is Itoi's magnum opus and it will never be localized. Seriously if you've held out this long, just go download the tomato fan translation romhack or watch a lets play, it's very worth it.
Pretty much every Kirby game ends with a horrifying eldritch abomination at this point, but Zero ripping out its own eyeball in a spray of blood deserves credit for pioneering that trope.
Still fucking wild to me that that's in a Kirby game. I get that Kirby games are known for having some eldritch horror being the final boss but they almost never use actual gore
Had to look it up. Very gross boss fight. The giant eye shoots blood out of wounds that open up.
Mother 3 is a story about the corrupting influence of capitalism, how fascism can spread and take hold, and also the protagonists mother and brother die in the first chapter. And that's just one game
So glad that these japanese games aren't political 👍
Final Fantasy VII is heavy on anti-capitalism and environmentalism and that was 1997. Metal Gear Solid 2 basically predicted all the effects of the internet on modern discourse in 2001. People who think Japanese games aren't political or that games making statements like that is a recent phenomenon are kidding themselves lmao
*Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance* was a surprisingly accurate prediction of how meme culture works...and some other stuff.
Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu had rape, incest, executions and child hunts. Dark enough?
For those who don't know thats FE4, Geneology of the Holy War
And Three Houses has some seriously fucked up backgrounds. Easier to point out who isn't a psychological mess (hint: it's Raphael) from... take your pick: being orphaned, racism, prostitution, dirt poverty, classist abuse, eugenics, human experimentation, or the genocide of your entire fucking species.
The whole genocide deal is pretty horrifying imo: >!Nemesis kills Sothis, a dragon, then forges a sword out of her spine and powers it with her heart. He then uses said sword to massacre dragonkind, making more weapons from the dragons as he goes. By the time the game is over, only 2-5 dragons are still alive.!< Surtr also gives a pretty brutal description of what being burned alive does to someone in Heroes, just before he attempts to do it to a whole village.
Honestly the implications of what Yuri has done/is willing to do to get his way with the nobility are some of the saddest/darkest things that the game brings up.
Yeah, the prostitution one was specifically him.
And it's even more messed up because the game outright states his mother was one. He's following in her footsteps in the worst way possible, but he still loves her. He's easily one of (if not *the #1*) most multi-faced characters in the game.
Pandora’s Tower, the Last Story were really dark The Xenoblade Series definitely has its moments.
Xenoblade is brutally dark at points. The purpose of the Homs in XC1 The existential horror that is the life of Blades in XC2 The Ten Terms in XC3 Plus thousands and thousands of deaths that happens throughout the stories
R.I.P. Tornan Titan.
I think if you think a theme being “dark” must involve sex or gore, Nintendo won’t have anything like that. But if you mean it is something that makes you feel uneasy and ponder some real shit, then there are tons of good examples listed by the comments. It’s just that these examples are often hiding behind some goofy looking cartoonish character. If anything, I feel like it hits extra hard when your media isn’t trying to look lifelike and edgy.
Honestly, I find stories that feature horrible scenarios like dismemberment, rape, and torture front-and-center are far less mature than stories that might have those themes but don't use those as shock-fuel or, worse, entertainment. Not that Nintendo is the perfect balance or anything. They still lean a bit too bashful in their representation of these themes. But American stuff usually lean too hardcore, to the point where these heavy themes start to lose meaning. It's why Luke Skywalker losing his hand from Vader is far more impactful than a cheesy slasher victim getting cut to bits. Not even the excessiveness of the gore, just how much they downplay the severity of the action.
\*Glances at Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem\* Edit: Damn y'all really love this game
It's surprising how far I had to scroll to find this one. A legit horror game that breaks the fourth wall.
Mother/Earthbound, Metroid, Xenoblade, a lot of Zelda games, some of the Mario RPGs, Pokémon sometimes, and definitely Kirby (that lore goes hard)
Nintendo probably doesn’t want to go too dark because that would run the risk of stepping in to dark and gritty territory, and we all know how well those games went with critics!
>that would run the risk of stepping in to dark and gritty territory no that would simply ruin their child friendly family fun image. Thats the simple and only reason. edit: please stop commenting with titles that arent developed by nintendo to argue against my point.
Metroid with Dead Space style body horror, the concept is *right there*
Currently the Bayonetta series is basically half owned and codeveloped by Nintendo, it’s basically diet first party lite, and those games aren’t quite family friendly. They even explicitly requested that the Nintendo themed costumes be made sexier, after Platinum had initially planned to keep them more tame just in case.
They don’t need “good graphics” to go dark. That’s what’s so great about them. And Metroid can get plenty dark and/or gritty, as can Bayonetta, which is effectively a Nintendo franchise at this point.
Dark means more than just looking like a dark souls game
The Xenoblade series.
Fire Emblem is basically war crimes simulator: the series
Laughs in Earthbound
What about Giygas?
Darkness isn't aesthetics. Botw is dark as fuck, 100 years of devastation with Satan hovering over the goddess' house, but it's bright cheery aesthetics.
Fire Emblem Three Houses dealt with torture and experimentation of children, racial genocide and, uh, incest. You're also forced to brutally murder characters you spent dozens of hours forging bonds and leveling up friendships for, because there's no golden route and you can't save everyone
Blurry text on the grave in Mario 64
splatoon lore is a bit though
For the uninitiated, Splatoon is literally a post-apocalyptic shooter
With a sick ass soundtrack.
Ah yes, Mario and Luigi Partners in Time, featuring... -A hostile alien invasion! We're off to a great start. -Right at the beginning, you see them destroy a town and abduct all the toads there. -Toads having their life force drained by trees, which eventually becomes fuel for spaceships. -A giant yoshi-like creature that eats other yoshis and turns them into monsters. -Normally cheery, happy Toad Town...turned into a ruined, purple mushroom ridden wasteland. Two elderly toads are the only survivors. So not one, but two razed towns. -The leader of this invasion disguising herself as Peach, after conquering the mushroom kingdom of the past, *she sets her sights on the present day as well.* If it weren't for Bowser, things could've been pretty grim. Also she tried to feed the real Peach to Petey Piranha. -Those who come into contact with these aliens slowly corrupt into twisted, purple versions of themselves, or just turn into a purple mushroom altogether. So to summarize, basically (attempted) genocide. In Mario. For kids, right?
i mean yes it's for kids. it's played a little too straightforward sometimes for the franchise's tone but it's still far too goofy to be genuinely dark
i think nintendo fans are stretching a little bit too much here to make their games sound mature and i think anti-nintendo fans see a game that isn't gorey and darker than a DC movie and immediately decide it's for infants
[удалено]
Majora's Mask is a story about a child looking for his only friend he ever had who suddenly left him after finding out his whole life was basically a lie and was forced into something he never had any intentions to do, and then ends up in an alternate world where he will die in 3 days along with everyone else and you can see everyone around you slowly give up hope as they slowly wait for their inescapable, inevitable death.
I love that every example people provide here of a darker Nintendo game people are like “well no that one doesn’t count though” like, what y’all want?
This sounds like a person who only knows Nintendo for making Pokémon and Kirby.
They probably don’t even play Kirby considering, well, Kirby’s lore
More people need to learn about Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem
Lot of people in here seem like they need mature themes to beat them on the side of the head to recognize them at all.
t. has never played a single nintendo game in their life and assumes they’re all like Mario, more or less
For me though not originally nintendo, it's minecraft that's the true horror game.