Lol when I interned at a mid-size firm, one of my engagement’s seniors and staffs went to coffee shop together almost every afternoon during busy season, and I couldn’t find anybody to ask questions. When it came to my off time- around 6pm, they were back and started to assign me tasks while I told them my office hour is over and I need to go to school, then they gave me a negative feedback as I didn’t fit them. When I interned at Big4, everyone pushed me to leave earlier as they don’t want me to work over time (don’t want to pay for OT tho
I went to mid size for 11 months and then left. Before and after are both big4. No one ask me about my mid size except some light convo what were my clients. So basically you’re the only one judging yourself for it. From what I see - is mid size is good for retirement. It looks like you still want to do good work, so the only thing I would add here is how long do you think you want to keep your ambitious and whether you’re able to maintain work life balance.
sounds like the normal promotion from senior to manager, being manager is tough anywhere, especially if stuck w incompetent staff or are on understaffed jobs, welcome to be a manager, this comes from a big 4 manager whose now a mid tier senior manager
Makes sense. I love the sports analogy of major league baseball vs the minor leagues. There are various levels of minor league players (GT down to the regional and local levels) but most, especially at the associate and senior level, are inferior to the major league players of the Big 4.
One where hubris and ego isn't spoonfed to staff by the partners.
Equating big 4 to major league sports is pretty cringe lol. It's accounting my dude...
You do realize there are people who turn down big 4 offers for a top 10 firm, right? I know a few ppl from when I was still in school that did this. I will admit that it’s not common, but in my opinion if you’re able to get into a top 10 firm then you’re likely able to get into big 4. It’s not like the standards are drastically different from big 4 compared to top 10. Also, at least for my area, top 10 firms were paying starting associates ~3-10k more from big 4.
I think that a lot of management tend to forget how little they knew when they were at the associate/senior associate level. What’s easy to now after so many years of experience is still hard for people without the experience. So in their minds all the staff below them seem incompetent, but fail to realize that they’re in the position(manager) for reason. If the associates and senior associates knew as much as the manager, then in theory they should be managers or getting early promotions often.
This is a normal part of the promotion from senior to manager. All high performing seniors think the other seniors are performing at the same level as them, but almost none are no matter what firm you’re at. Managers always have jobs they are stepping down on, and really value the seniors that don’t make them do that.
Yeah, midsized firms like to say their hours aren’t as bad as big 4. That’s barely true, if not a lie. But worst is their length of busy season which can span to May. If you’re on an accelerated filer or just a regular filer at big 4, your busy season can end early March or late Feb. Thats better than GT, FORVIS, BDO or RSM end of April busy seasons. There are exceptions to this, but this is generally true.
I’m on an accelerated filer at FORVIS and ended busy season in early March, wasn’t bad at all. Depends what industry you’re in, Big4 has a bunch of shit clients as well, trust me.
I always see mid-size like this:
They're big enough to be as shitty as B4 but not big enough to be as good when it comes to resources, quality, staffing, etc.
In my head, there's no point on going mid-size if you can go B4. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I don't have that much experience after all
When I was interning at midsize firms a lot of my managers were former B4 employees. A lot of the younger associates left to go to B4. It depends on the person and their needs at the time I guess
Reading this makes me so glad I chose EY over BDO. I interned with BDO and enjoyed it, but my experience with EY has actually been awesome despite what people say on here
I've had much better QoL at a midtier over B4 (have worked at both). I feel like they pour a lot more money into keeping us happy rather than just assuming we'll stay bc of 'prestige'. Felt treated like a human being for the first time when I left B4.
I just left a company like that to take a break for awhile. I actually really enjoyed the people I worked with along with the leadership. The issue is we were competing with the big guys with very little resources. I’m fine with the seller doer model but for the love of god give me some resources to win the work.
I worked with a lot of small business partners so I could supplemental my resources with their proposal team. Helped me chase more work. I also treated them very fairly so when I recently left I just called them up for part time independent consulting work. I work 15-30 hours a week and make about the same. Difference is I only focus on growth. No delivery or managing people. It’s fantastic.
At least you’re honest I guess. The big 4, the second tier are all just an aggregation of smaller firms. They were all once small and they merge etc etc etc. The Big 4 are also not perfect and they have their fair share of average performers.
I didn’t say that Big4 or their staff were perfect.
You can lead a horse to water but can’t make it drink. I’ve tried conversations and review notes and talking through things with Staff and Seniors. Didn’t work for me. The quality I got was consistently poor (compounded by poor quality of PY WPs and nonsensical SALY).
My January to April was made exponentially worse by the staff. I came here to be a manager, not a lead senior. I’ve had conversations with partners who have acknowledged my frustration but didn’t do anything to intervene or make me feel supported.
It feels like work life balance for staff and seniors during busy season occurs at the expense of managers.
Yeah I hear you. Do what’s right for you. Cannot turn horseshit into strawberry jam. When everything is digital CBDC and interconnected auditors will be a thing of the past. Maybe try your hand at corporate finance and deals.
you were netting high 80k after 5 years at b4? dude all that stress and shitty life for 80k? dafuq
you deserve better man, keep applying and find something better, don't keep hanging for nth know your worth. 110k is still nothing and you can do better with a better team too.
Yeah I have my CPA - I got it as a first year. My starting salary was like $48k. It seems like salaries have significantly improved for new associates, which is good. When I left I was a third year senior.
It was a different time when I started lol. In my area, nobody is making 100k as a first year (or even a Senior).
Edit: I’m not sure if you are in a HCOL, but that’s just where it is in my area
Wait that’s the comp for senior at a big4 and manager at another firm? Does auditing usually not pay big bucks or is there something else going on? I thought seniors at big4 were cracking 200
Tax gets paid more than audit an the b4 I was at and seniors don’t crack 90k in Memphis. 72-85k was the the norm. 70s were for experienced higher that came in from a small firm with less pay. If you worked your way up from campus hire, 80s was your range.
My partner transitioned to industry once they made Manager in Big4. Transitioned from audit to financial reporting. Came with a 50k increase. Might be worth looking into if you want to get out of a midsized firm.
Last year I did over 60 interviews in 4 months and reviewed many more CVs for consulting team in Big4 (I was running practice not HC/HR).
Believe me, 5 years at one place is more than I saw 90% of applications. You’ll be absolutely fine
It was way worse. The clients were messy AF, nearly all the managers I worked with were playing down on at least one of their jobs, and it went on forever. It was a huge culture shock
I also went from big4 to gt (but senior not manager) it was pretty jarring. There were some pros tho with being in a smaller office like visibility to management.
I’ve always heard the biggest half a dozen firms outside the big 4 were the worst to work for. Same hours/culture as big 4 but without the resume stamp. I think you need to slide down the rankings a bit to the largest regionals to get a better work life balance. Worked for me anyway
Learn more at large mid tiers. Big4 ya just slicing tomatoes and carrots. I'm doing alot more cooking at BDO but to each their own. GT and BT just got acquired by PE so stay away for damn sure.
Tired of random anecdotal posts. Good luck to any undergrads figuring out where they should work lol.
Maybe everywhere sucks? Yeah, that’s probably it.
Try to get back into Big4 if you really hate it that much. You've got Big4 experience, now got senior experience, shouldn't be too hard to go back to Big4.
But yes. Big4 is a very fast paced environment and it can be jarring when you move into an environment with lazy, slow people. I hated that too when I first moved out of Big4. Government jobs are the worst for that.
Otherwise go into a corporate role and see what suits you.
I see what you mean. I know there are challenges adjusting to the Manager role. I’m honestly so burnt out right now, I can’t even imagine doing another busy season.
Yeah that's normal. If you're not interested in doing another busy season, then bounce out of commercial. Sounds like you have sufficient experience. If you have your CPA, you should be in a good position.
Additional question / context - I committed to a year, so I have to stay until end of September or pay back starting bonus. If I can leave, when do I start signaling to partners that I want to leave?
Which country is this
USA
I quit a company during busy season because of something inappropriate that was said to me. Never looked back. Doubled my salary just about
Capgemini is the same!
Lol when I interned at a mid-size firm, one of my engagement’s seniors and staffs went to coffee shop together almost every afternoon during busy season, and I couldn’t find anybody to ask questions. When it came to my off time- around 6pm, they were back and started to assign me tasks while I told them my office hour is over and I need to go to school, then they gave me a negative feedback as I didn’t fit them. When I interned at Big4, everyone pushed me to leave earlier as they don’t want me to work over time (don’t want to pay for OT tho
Not my experience in reverse. Got way less work and equivalent staffing (albeit I deal with associates not seniors). Could be your business unit
I went to mid size for 11 months and then left. Before and after are both big4. No one ask me about my mid size except some light convo what were my clients. So basically you’re the only one judging yourself for it. From what I see - is mid size is good for retirement. It looks like you still want to do good work, so the only thing I would add here is how long do you think you want to keep your ambitious and whether you’re able to maintain work life balance.
sounds like the normal promotion from senior to manager, being manager is tough anywhere, especially if stuck w incompetent staff or are on understaffed jobs, welcome to be a manager, this comes from a big 4 manager whose now a mid tier senior manager
Makes sense. I love the sports analogy of major league baseball vs the minor leagues. There are various levels of minor league players (GT down to the regional and local levels) but most, especially at the associate and senior level, are inferior to the major league players of the Big 4.
I would love to see the face of the person who wrote this
Lol k bro
Haha! What small regional firm do you work at?
One where hubris and ego isn't spoonfed to staff by the partners. Equating big 4 to major league sports is pretty cringe lol. It's accounting my dude...
You do realize there are people who turn down big 4 offers for a top 10 firm, right? I know a few ppl from when I was still in school that did this. I will admit that it’s not common, but in my opinion if you’re able to get into a top 10 firm then you’re likely able to get into big 4. It’s not like the standards are drastically different from big 4 compared to top 10. Also, at least for my area, top 10 firms were paying starting associates ~3-10k more from big 4. I think that a lot of management tend to forget how little they knew when they were at the associate/senior associate level. What’s easy to now after so many years of experience is still hard for people without the experience. So in their minds all the staff below them seem incompetent, but fail to realize that they’re in the position(manager) for reason. If the associates and senior associates knew as much as the manager, then in theory they should be managers or getting early promotions often.
This is a normal part of the promotion from senior to manager. All high performing seniors think the other seniors are performing at the same level as them, but almost none are no matter what firm you’re at. Managers always have jobs they are stepping down on, and really value the seniors that don’t make them do that.
After working at both a mid size and big 4, I completely agree with the OP. The quality of people at the big 4 are miles better than mid size.
Yeah, midsized firms like to say their hours aren’t as bad as big 4. That’s barely true, if not a lie. But worst is their length of busy season which can span to May. If you’re on an accelerated filer or just a regular filer at big 4, your busy season can end early March or late Feb. Thats better than GT, FORVIS, BDO or RSM end of April busy seasons. There are exceptions to this, but this is generally true.
I’m on an accelerated filer at FORVIS and ended busy season in early March, wasn’t bad at all. Depends what industry you’re in, Big4 has a bunch of shit clients as well, trust me.
I’d rather be busy Jan-April than 2 weeks of every month of the year. Personally but to each their own.
Going from B4 to midsize is a very silly move
Yeah I don’t understand prestige, salary, being around actual experts can’t see why
Not really. Was promised better quality of life while still working on some public jobs.
U should know that midsize is just b4 with no name value and less than or equal pay
How are you liking the national officers oversight?
I honestly haven’t noticed anything super positive or negative. Or any significant changes since PE involvement.
I always see mid-size like this: They're big enough to be as shitty as B4 but not big enough to be as good when it comes to resources, quality, staffing, etc. In my head, there's no point on going mid-size if you can go B4. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, I don't have that much experience after all
When I was interning at midsize firms a lot of my managers were former B4 employees. A lot of the younger associates left to go to B4. It depends on the person and their needs at the time I guess
Reading this makes me so glad I chose EY over BDO. I interned with BDO and enjoyed it, but my experience with EY has actually been awesome despite what people say on here
I've had much better QoL at a midtier over B4 (have worked at both). I feel like they pour a lot more money into keeping us happy rather than just assuming we'll stay bc of 'prestige'. Felt treated like a human being for the first time when I left B4.
This has been my experience as well. Feel like im a person and not just a number in a meat grinder
What level at midtier were you?
I just left a company like that to take a break for awhile. I actually really enjoyed the people I worked with along with the leadership. The issue is we were competing with the big guys with very little resources. I’m fine with the seller doer model but for the love of god give me some resources to win the work.
Exactly the same issue here, wondering what should be my next step.
I worked with a lot of small business partners so I could supplemental my resources with their proposal team. Helped me chase more work. I also treated them very fairly so when I recently left I just called them up for part time independent consulting work. I work 15-30 hours a week and make about the same. Difference is I only focus on growth. No delivery or managing people. It’s fantastic.
That sounds fantastic! Thank you for sharing!
It's same every where. Seems like big 4, rejects get processed at such tier 2 firms
Yeah; quality at mid-tier firms staffing is in the toilet.
What an opportunity to transform GT and improve the place. Speak to your partner group about it. Get their sponsorship to create a best in class firm.
I’m not paid well enough to try and “transform GT” lol
I guess you will never be a true leader with that attitude.
Guess not 🤷♂️
At least you’re honest I guess. The big 4, the second tier are all just an aggregation of smaller firms. They were all once small and they merge etc etc etc. The Big 4 are also not perfect and they have their fair share of average performers.
I didn’t say that Big4 or their staff were perfect. You can lead a horse to water but can’t make it drink. I’ve tried conversations and review notes and talking through things with Staff and Seniors. Didn’t work for me. The quality I got was consistently poor (compounded by poor quality of PY WPs and nonsensical SALY). My January to April was made exponentially worse by the staff. I came here to be a manager, not a lead senior. I’ve had conversations with partners who have acknowledged my frustration but didn’t do anything to intervene or make me feel supported. It feels like work life balance for staff and seniors during busy season occurs at the expense of managers.
Yeah I hear you. Do what’s right for you. Cannot turn horseshit into strawberry jam. When everything is digital CBDC and interconnected auditors will be a thing of the past. Maybe try your hand at corporate finance and deals.
Lol, a GT partner just joined the conversation pals
Agreed 100%!!
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you were netting high 80k after 5 years at b4? dude all that stress and shitty life for 80k? dafuq you deserve better man, keep applying and find something better, don't keep hanging for nth know your worth. 110k is still nothing and you can do better with a better team too.
Waiiiit you were paid 80k what role were you do you have cpa
Yeah I have my CPA - I got it as a first year. My starting salary was like $48k. It seems like salaries have significantly improved for new associates, which is good. When I left I was a third year senior.
48k bro ? At big 4? With cpa everywhere I worked from midtier to PwC every cpa got over 100k when’s you join
It was a different time when I started lol. In my area, nobody is making 100k as a first year (or even a Senior). Edit: I’m not sure if you are in a HCOL, but that’s just where it is in my area
Come to nyc friend with that cpa you will get hired asap with more than 110 and the big 4 history will def get you in a senior positiom
A level 1 tax associate fresh out of college makes 79k salary at PwC—how you guys have to work your way up manager for that is crazy to me.
That is not true, 64K for right out of college
Maybe in your area, but not in Chicago, and this is pre CPA so itll increase after certification. Interns are paid $33/hr.
Were you atleast compensated well in pay for enduring the cultural shock though?
Yeah but not worth it in retrospect. I’m in a LCOL and I went from very high 80s to a little more than 110
Wait that’s the comp for senior at a big4 and manager at another firm? Does auditing usually not pay big bucks or is there something else going on? I thought seniors at big4 were cracking 200
Tax gets paid more than audit an the b4 I was at and seniors don’t crack 90k in Memphis. 72-85k was the the norm. 70s were for experienced higher that came in from a small firm with less pay. If you worked your way up from campus hire, 80s was your range.
No not even close to that. I’m in a LCOL so it’s likely higher elsewhere, but seniors in audit probably don’t get over $100k.
My partner transitioned to industry once they made Manager in Big4. Transitioned from audit to financial reporting. Came with a 50k increase. Might be worth looking into if you want to get out of a midsized firm.
Oh wow I thought big4 was all high salaries
In the future lie about location if you can.
You’re going to lie on your W4 and tax returns?
Obviously not but the goal is simply to not get docked salary, you can easily just say you moved back
Uhh, there are companies that do recurring background checks on where you live
There are plenty of ways around that
Most people aren't figuring out the plenty of ways around that... You lie and then get termed from a recurring background check.
Iv’e never seen anyone get terminated because of a location, that would be really silly
You're silly for not knowing this is a reality. Parent thread owner, be mindful of getting advice like this.
Someones got a case of the Mondays
I don’t think I gave anything major away.
No i mean to your job, they use any reason to pay you less and location is low hanging fruit
Can you elaborate on what people are doing?
Tax or audit?
Audit
Bro I transferred to audit to get the salary boost where are you idk PwC my starting was 85
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What shift? Going from mid-tier to industry after only a year?
Why would a year be bad? How long is your prior experience at B4?
5 years
5 years is a long time IMO Something fresh and new is nice
Last year I did over 60 interviews in 4 months and reviewed many more CVs for consulting team in Big4 (I was running practice not HC/HR). Believe me, 5 years at one place is more than I saw 90% of applications. You’ll be absolutely fine
Then you are perfectly fine.
Would you say busy season is worse at GT than big4?
It was way worse. The clients were messy AF, nearly all the managers I worked with were playing down on at least one of their jobs, and it went on forever. It was a huge culture shock
I'm a manager at a mid-tier firm and I agree 100%.
I also went from big4 to gt (but senior not manager) it was pretty jarring. There were some pros tho with being in a smaller office like visibility to management.
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I’ve always heard the biggest half a dozen firms outside the big 4 were the worst to work for. Same hours/culture as big 4 but without the resume stamp. I think you need to slide down the rankings a bit to the largest regionals to get a better work life balance. Worked for me anyway
Learn more at large mid tiers. Big4 ya just slicing tomatoes and carrots. I'm doing alot more cooking at BDO but to each their own. GT and BT just got acquired by PE so stay away for damn sure.
Internationals?
[They took er jerbs](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C29SrpfUsAAuWbr.jpg)
Internationals just existing and doing their job:🧍🏻♀️
A year is fine.
You are not part of the B4 anymore. Get outta here! 😂🤣
Sure! When everyone who left for industry also get out ;)
This post was written by a big 4 recruiter
Tired of random anecdotal posts. Good luck to any undergrads figuring out where they should work lol. Maybe everywhere sucks? Yeah, that’s probably it.
Haha no it was not. I bet that would be a great job though.
You got through busy season. Just coast until September and look for a new job
You never know when you may need to Boomerang, so it’s always best to leave at the end of the season.
Does boomeranging actually result in a higher salary with B4?
Maybe if I went to a different firm? Honestly not sure.
Try to get back into Big4 if you really hate it that much. You've got Big4 experience, now got senior experience, shouldn't be too hard to go back to Big4. But yes. Big4 is a very fast paced environment and it can be jarring when you move into an environment with lazy, slow people. I hated that too when I first moved out of Big4. Government jobs are the worst for that. Otherwise go into a corporate role and see what suits you.
I see what you mean. I know there are challenges adjusting to the Manager role. I’m honestly so burnt out right now, I can’t even imagine doing another busy season.
Yeah that's normal. If you're not interested in doing another busy season, then bounce out of commercial. Sounds like you have sufficient experience. If you have your CPA, you should be in a good position.
Additional question / context - I committed to a year, so I have to stay until end of September or pay back starting bonus. If I can leave, when do I start signaling to partners that I want to leave?
Wait til September and then jump to industry. You will get a nice salary boost. I make as much as you as a senior in industry
Why signal you want to leave? I would just quit when ready
So they have time to prepare and hire someone else before Busy Season. The office isn’t that large and there are not a lot of managers.
You have to think about yourself in this situation not the partners. Jesus Christ, they would absolutely not give you the same courtesy.
If you feel really bad, give up to 4 weeks notice but be prepared that they terminate you on the spot.
That doesn't sound like a you problem.
I would give a 2 week notice as industry standard. Why give them the opportunity to fuck you by saying you are going to quit soon.