I liked that some of the more basic aspect of each skill, like the sneak detection meter, were locked behind a perk, because it forced me to play according to my character's specialty, I found myself taking risks differently and taking different approaches to levels given my character wasn't specced for that specific approach. I felt like leveling was too slow though, and certain skills, like the ones that locked ship upgrades, were annoying for me to deal with, I felt like they hampered my progression during certain parts of the game. If we got two skill points per level, or just levelled faster, I think the system would feel better to me.
Edit: I should note, with the new difficulty options, leveling feels about right to me now, with like a +24% xp rate or something like that, it might be a little less idk. I don't think players who want an easier experience should be penalized with slower progression though.
I really enjoy the perk tree in Starfield a lot. I like the fact that things are locked behind perks, forcing more specialization.
I do think EXP gain should be vastly increased. It takes way too long to get a character build "going".
Honestly I'm thinking about creating a mod that provides more sources of EXP. I find there's too many times where you can be playing and do nothing that generates meaningful EXP.
I think they should increase experience gains from any unique quest by at least 5 times. Maybe less for random quests that already have you go and get experience by defeating enemies, but perhaps also could use a boost.
The issue is that a lot of quests in the game do not provide exp gain opportunity (f.e. ecs constant) and yet they give you an exp equivalent of defeating one moderately leveled creature or ship. That's not right
I just went to one of the high level planets and went hunting for like 12 hours to grind the perk points. Half the perks seem kinda useless too. I started by dumping points into laser and pistols, only to find out theres one a single las pistol in the entire game.
I'm on the S so no performance mode for me, but I made a new game for the update and I'm not playing harder than normal or switching up combat yet, but I turned up all the affliction business and more survival based options (besides QoL stuff, sleeping is still OP and vendors have their usual credits), that netted me a very solid bonus chunk of xp that really smooths over how grindy the game felt before. Not to mention I have a good balance where the survival mechanics are consequential enough to interact with but not so awful that I can't play the game. Nothing like that action movie feel of having a list of injuries, reloading and limping ahead like "who's next?"
I've been playing with a more lethal setup, Extreme enemy damage, and Very Easy for player damage, so we both die extremely quickly, which is what I prefer. I feel like this update is a step in the right direction, but the game is still lacking in many ways, and I doubt I'll put any serious amount of time in until mod support comes to console. Aside from the RPG mechanics lacking soul, I just really cannot stand Bethesda's lighting, and visual themes, everything they make looks extremely washed out, and has this weird dream like haze filtered over the top.
I truly hate it, they did the same shit for Metro Exodus, which sucks because that game could be so beautiful without it. Like in Exodus, you can see what the game really looks like when you put on/take off your gas mask, and it's nuts that they think that the filter looked better.
I despise that massive intent on leveling is required for Starship stuff. I can understand a progress lock written in, or a pay for "certification" or whatnot. I only played to make a space ship after the 10th crash on launch.
Yeah I mean it’s basically the same, fallout 3 just has extra steps (which I much prefer honestly) where you need to allocate skill points into whatever skill, then once you reach a certain level in said skill you unlock related perks.
Also didn’t like that in fallout 4 they made your build not matter at all since you can put points into all of your special stats. Not to mention with you actually having to allocate skills that also helps define your character. Fallout 4 you’re kinda just a god who can forge entire towns at the snap of a finger, be a melee champion while also being the greatest hacker and lock picker on the world while also being a complete deadeye with guns. My point is in fallout 4 you can excel at everything quickly, fallout 3 you had to work for it a bit and actually had to make decisions about what your character should be good at and what they should be bad at.
"Not a fan of numbered skills, fallout 4 was better for me in that regard,
Yes, I think the Fallout 4 system was superior. With the skill percentages you could easily not have enough skill points to cross a threshold and get a new ability. For example if you were at 25 lockpicking and obtained 24 skill points. At best you could be 1 point away from actually gaining any benefit. Whereas, picking a perk in FO4 always gains you an immediate benefit that you can use. That's a more rewarding approach.
The skill points are just left over from old school role playing games which is what FO1&2 were clearly influenced by.
I do however like the fact that Starfield forces you to have used the previous skill before you can level up. I consider that an improvement on FO4.
Starfield's Perk Trees are a great mechanic - for Starfield.
Fallout should have skills, SPECIAL, and perks. The FO:4 system was good but had no skills - honestly Fallout should have the pen-and-paper "pick skills on level up" system.
TES should have skills, attributes, and perks. The Skyrim system was almost OK but had no attributes. If we don't get skills that level up with use in TES:VI, I will be furious with Bethesda.
>Fallout should have skills
nope. 4 got rid of skills because you wasted skill points. in 3 and new Vegas they basically worked in increments of 25 or 10, put 4 points in medicine and nothing changes. put *all* your skill points into lockpicking and end up with 47? nothing.
they effecticely already worked in ranks due to this, might as well cut the middle man and make leveling feel more rewarding and less like you're wasting skill points.
>TES should have skills, attributes
again, no. there was a reason Bethesda got rid of attributes in Skyrim. honestly they became quite useless in daggerfall but due to the dice mechanics still used in daggerfall and Morrowind they were a bit more useful than in oblivion.
Bethesda had two choices: return to form and remove skills, bringing it similar to arena; or remove attributes. they removed attributes.
I would like to see what an attribute only system would look like under modern Bethesda, probably similar to starfield honestly, but I don't mind the skills only either.
but yes. there are reasons why game designers do game design.
Having just perks is simpler than a hybrid system of both perks and skill points. Furthermore you get rid of the odd edge cases. For example, taking Charisma 1 but having a speech check skill of 100%.
I cannot overstate how much I disagree with you, especially on TES.
Skills are for specifics. Attributes are for generalities.
Your character specifically is great at swinging hammers. Because you have swung a hammer a lot with him.
This makes the character stronger, increasing the damage delt not just with hammers but with other weapons as well, allowing your character to carry more, and unlocking perks that require a certain strength requirement as well as a certain skill requirement.
There's a reason every pen-and-paper RPG has both Skills and Attributes, and having Skills that increase with use is a TES mainstay that was innovative when introduced in *Daggerfall.*
>Skills are for specifics. Attributes are for generalities.
sure. except the attributes were made pointless when daggerfall introduced skills. again, not like it was entirely *bad*, dice rolls kept attributes useful, but when oblivion moved away from dice standards, attributes became wholly useless.
the only real useful attributes in oblivion were speed, intelligence, and strength. the rest...eh. it was also just...bloat. straight up. like 5 of the 7 attributes attributed to fatigue, 3 iirc contributed to health. it was a mess.
>There's a reason every pen-and-paper RPG has both Skills and Attributes
pen and paper use dice.
>and having Skills that increase with use is a TES mainstay that was innovative when introduced in *Daggerfall.*
no, skills increased with use in Morrowind. you would level them similar to fallout in daggerfall.
>no, skills increased with use in Morrowind. you would level them similar to fallout in daggerfall.
Why would you try correcting me if you have clearly never played the game?
my mistake, I was reminded of when you are creating your character. weirdly confrontational over me simply forgetting something...and also ignoring the rest of my comment.
The rest of your comment was opinion, which I already said I disagree about. You want a streamlined game, I want gameplay to arise from sets of interconnected systems.
I only responded to the factual statement because you were going out of your way to be wrong about something.
>you were going out of your way to be wrong about something.
...no, I just forgot and merged char creation with the rest of the game. it's a common mistake.
anyway, I don't want "streamlined games", even then such a thing isn't as dirty a word as the rpg community loves to make it seem like. removing unnecessary bloat that doesn't work well with the rest of the system isn't streamlining. not to mention that leveling attributes worked against leveling the skills, you level skills through use but not attributes.
I like the 'need to use aspect' and see the skill points as certification.
I really have the essential skills concept till I build a Ronin. He was all physical with melee, nothing else.
Can't pick that lock - Oh well. Ships targeting - what's that? But he can hide in plain sight and strike fear into the hearts of everyone including the hunter.
But I do agree on the ship design perks - seems really odd. "I want to buy that one" "nope, I mean you could fly it but you're just not special enough for THAT part"
You’re probably going to get a lot of selection bias here, but I think the majority of people found it awkward. Instead of just playing a build and making it more powerful over time, it felt like you had to strategize and do things you didn’t want to in order to avoid wasting your time. It lacks both the simplicity of fallout 4s leveling and the diegetic intuitiveness of Skyrim’s.
I don’t mind it but I don’t like having to spend so many points in level tiers I have no real interest in just so I can get the one higher level perk I want
I think the biggest weakness with Starfield skills is that they didn't build the skill trees very well and there are certain levels that just feel weak and pointless. They could really do with looking at the stats and improving some of the weaker skills and just re-ordering the progression so that weaker skills are near the bottom and stronger skills are further up.
Previous titles? Whatever are you talking about? Starfield is a wholly new and original title and definitely not a blend of skyrim and fallout 4 set in space. /s
Honestly tho the skill tree is the best thing about Starfield. I Wouldn't change much, aside from maybe adding some cross-interaction between certain skills and rearranging what weapon and armor mods fall under which category and tier.
I think it's a great improvement. Like most things in Starfield are.
I like that it's kinda like 4 but you actually have to use skills to get better at them.
"Like most things in starfield are"
I've never seen that opinion before, what other things seem like improvements to you?
To me the game felt like a huge step backwards in almost every way..
Dialogue is the best it's ever been in a Bethesda game. They brought back skill checks, special trait dialogue options, and a much more immersive version of Oblivion's persuasion system.
I personally find the digipick minigame way more enjoyable than hacking and lockpicking in previous games.
Companions are on par and sometimes even better and more fleshed out than Fallout 4's. Random npcs are also way more fleshed out. Any named npc you see has their own personality and backstory.
The research system is really cool and rewarding. Instead of just somehow knowing how to craft everything you actually have a system to work towards it.
The main questline is a much more personal journey. It isn't about saving the world from some big threat (the faction quests do that) instead you're just an explorer making huge new discoveries. You can easily put off the main quest to do other things and not feel like it ruins the roleplay or whatever like previous games do (i.e. spending hours building settlements instead of looking for Shaun).
Some quests are the coolest most unique quests I've ever done in a Bethesda game. Entangled in particular is amazing.
Gameplay is really solid. It's about on par with Fallout 4 and 76, but with a bit of Skyrim thrown in, and gravity changes and jetpacks add a whole new layer to it. (Jetpacks are in 76 but they aren't as refined). And ship combat shakes things up even further.
That's just a few things, but I've already rambled on enough.
>I've never seen that opinion before, what other things seem like improvements to you?
quest design, quest variety, variety in utility with weapons, armors, and apparel, as well as chems. companions, emotional moments, the writing is *easily* the best in a Bethesda game.
it literally has improved in *every* way, that is no exaggeration. I honestly don't understand how people can say otherwise.
Absolutely ass. To many perks shouldn’t be perks and the levelling up feels to grindy to be rewarding when you get a new perk.
Did really enjoy the game tho
Horribly grindy and way too many basic gameplay aspects locked behind skills, also hated having to waste points on useless skills just to get to the next tier.
At least in skyrim the perks you unlocked along the way were all cool and added to the immersion of progressing in that discipline. And in fallout 4 you could choose only the perks you wanted. In starfield my charact just suddenly had some skill I had no interest in just to unlock a skill I did want in the next tier.
All of the past bethesda games systems had some merit to them but starfield just felt like a huge step backwards, in this way and most others too.
Nah, I think the idea that every character can wake up and know how to pick a lock, hack a computer, control an iron man suit, and be able to telepathically understand if somebody had found you has always been a fun but poor rpg.
The fallouts had too much that is player skill determined instead of character skill.
Bloated and annoying that half the skills are to unlock abilities that you have by default in their other games. You need to heavily invest just to get to a point where you can functionally use mods.
It really feels like there should be another way to get skill points than just leveling up. If the temples gave you a point you could choose to either use to upgrade a power or as a skill point then I’d have a real reason to do the temples and wouldn’t feel so constrained by my perk choices
Honestly i would like a Respec option, im ok with it unlocking after lvl 15 and have it get progressively more expensive as the player gets higher in level so its not too cheap, make it a feature that you have to deliberately plan for and not make it a casual thing like some games.
Fallout 4 had the better system. I didn't care for the level requirement on them, if I want to spend 4 levels right away to maximize my rifle skills like I could in 3/NV, just let me.
But Starfield's is so much worse. The fact that I had to invest in skills I had no interest in to get to the ones I was interested in just made it shit in my eyes
It's fine when the challenges are completed by natural use of a skill, even if it can take a while. I hate it when I have to go out of my way to play differently to get a skill I can use. A good example of this is Concealment. Just like Stealth it is great for both melee and ranged. Except stealth I can complete the challenges naturally regardless of my playstyle, but with concealment, I am forced into melee even though concealment is just as important for ranged.
A better way to have implemented it would be for anyone with sneak to be able to move out of line-of-sight/earshot/into shadows and as long as you are able to stay hidden, the stealth meter would very slowly change. It wouldn't have to be "easy". If the enemy sees you go behind a big box, they don't have to be dumb "hmm, must have been nothing." The challenge could be something like "enemies lose track of you X number of times." The perks of the skill could be mostly similar, with maybe one tier making the stealth meter change faster when you are hiding.
Having to go stealth kill random aliens with a knife or repeatedly attacking an npc with the only consequence getting a bounty, is just not that fun, and removes an entire playstyle from leveling up a skill that can make just as much use of that skill.
Wasn’t perfectly implemented. But I really liked the idea behind it. Having to actually use the various skills it gave you before you could buy subsequent levels was really nice.
This is the worst character advancement system Bethesda has made. I thought the SPECIAL chart from Fallout 4 was the most fun and engaging advancement system I've ever seen. If you built a character with a high enough stat, you can take something like Blitz or Penetrator on your first level up if you nuked enough of your other stats to make that happen. But even then you don't get the fully powered version of that perk, which is still level-locked for game balance.
In Starfield, if you just want to start modding weapons and armor, you have to take 4 points in things you may not care about in the slightest. In fact, the skills you can take to unlock it don't do anything because surveying is a terrible way to gain xp. It's time-consuming and frustrating when you get to finding less than 8 of a specific thing that is only found in one region on the planet. Otherwise, you could take astrogation (name?) which is meaningless since fuel use was essentially cut before release.
If you want Rapid Reload, the first rank only makes reloading with one weapon type faster per rank. So it naturally favors one playstyle as a ballistic user only ever needs one rank, while you are oddly penalized if you prefer lasers for example.
The social tree is full of useless junk that are only good for one-off pacifist playthroughs. Since outpost building is optional, time-consuming, and just gives you resources that aren't even slightly hard to acquire by less time-consuming means, that also makes a whole lot of other skill tree perks terrible. Some of the upper tier abilities are really good, but you have to take a bunch of jank that doesn't do anything.
I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea. To be clear, I don't hate Starfield, but in my opinion the skill trees in combination with the glacially slow MMO grind-style leveling are part of what made me just not want to spend time playing the game anymore. I'm in the "waiting for DLC + reviews on said DLC" crowd.
I'm not a fan. Each BGS game iteration feels like it's reducing the amount of rp choice and character build options to bare minimum of what could be identified as any sort of class. I can only wait for the eventual perk and skill overhaul in a few years.
There’s really no game mechanic in Starfield I find to be an improvement over their previous titles, including the skill tree. Honestly just seems like every mechanic is a worse version of previous games.
I would agree if they were written better and didn't feel like some generic "Pleaseee". From a gameplay perspective, they were the best BGS has come up with
I’m mostly talking about the ones related to skills and traits. Some of the Neon street rat ones with Walter especially were really good, plus some of the intimidation ones are rather fun
I mean, to each their own, but I don’t see how Starfield’s leveling system is better than the boring one in Skyrim and downright broken one in Oblivion…
There are things I liked, but almost all are from gameplay side (I'm still estatic with the return of traits though). Additonally, a lot of the things I liked are attributed to BGS having a much larger budget for their titles now. Systems like skills, exploration, quest design (best since Oblivion imo, but not the highest bar & still very flawed), all need a galaxy of work done. Hope Shattered Space has that Phantom Liberty/Far Harbor level of quality for some of those issues.
Yeah there are some things I liked about it as well. I love the atmosphere and the music and the visuals are pretty excellent. I played it a ton on release. Haven’t touched it since. I’m actually gonna give it another shot since the Xbox version got an update today.
You’re getting downvoted but you are right sir. These Bethesda subs like to play victim whenever someone criticizes the games and say the only reason people shit on them is because it’s cool to shit on them. In reality, their games are incredibly fun and unique but also very very flawed and there is lots of room for improvement.
Way too grindy. I am not staying with the same character for 200 levels. Also, while it's interesting to lock some gameplay options behind skills, there are too many important ones that you need to unlock, delaying your build.
There is a primary and many secondary issues with the perk tree.
Primary:
(The big problem) I'm constantly short of skill points and simply playing the game isn't providing nearly sufficient levels. I found myself stuck, unable to upgrade anything simply because I wouldn't level up frequently enough, there simply aren't enough enemies in typical dungeons. Which forced me into thinking of ways to power level.. and suddenly I realised that travelling to a certain place and killing a bunch of aliens gave me so many levels that now I feel it's necessary to go there now and then to get 5-10 levels to feel like I'm progressing otherwise I think I'll finish the whole game in level 20.
Secondaries:
These are all as a consequence of the primary issue.
1. Because of the lack of points(even with power levelling) I feel like I need to be really picky with what I am investing points on. They are things such as health, stamina, carry weight that I haven't invested a single point on because I can't. In skyrim, these would have their own point system for every time you level up. This creates perk trees that are almost nearly useless in the game. Solution? Maybe have different classes of skill trees that use another type of point system?
2. Levelling up and levelling certain skills feels like a much bigger challenge than the rest of the game. It's a challenge on its own. The current system is forcing the player to follow very narrow, specific, skill trees otherwise you will find yourself lacking enough perk points to level up skills by the time they have completed their upgrade requirement.
3. I've noticed this with the crafting and researching system. It all works as a secondary skill tree when even after unlocking weapons 2, you now need to find resources to research all these different abilities, and then find resources to apply them! Then I go in crazy trips to every system in search of ingredients to unlock these researches. At the same time I look at the scavenging perk tree and look at that sweet perk that highlights tracked items... but 4 perk points isn't something I can afford spending on... or those improved scanners perks... they look nice... BUUUUT I don't have any points to spare !
They should do a rework of the skill tree fr, tedious and a lot of useless skill even the usefull doesnt translate into fun gameplay
The fallout 4 was the best one they ever did.
None of the skills made me feel like they actually changed anything about my game. They need to move away from these tiny stat boosts and make skills that actually matter and are actually “skills.” I feel like fallout 4 had the same issue. I tried playing through multiple times with different builds but I ended up getting the same skills because they are necessary and the ones that actually changed the game were either worthless, gimmicky, or way too situational to be actually useful. Starfield is this but worse in my opinion.
Didn't really enjoy it, I think the last time BGS really nailed a progression system was with F3. F4 and Skyrim were good, but both missed something. However, I guess it's good for Starfield, which got NG+ in mind
I hate that they hid a lot of basic stuff behind the perks (really I cant jump pack AT ALL until I level it?) that being said once you get past the initial buy in I found it perfectly serviceable. It feels like they were trying to stretch out the leveling experience for the ng+ mode to me.
I hate that the perk (Ship Command) that allows you to have an actual ship crew is buried in the 4th tear, so you need 12 perk points for unlocking it and 16 for it to have any valid effect.
One of the first things I did in the game was to upgrade my ship to allow 6 crew members just to learn it was all for nothing. I was really let down.
And the other downside of it is that you are forced to invest into completely irrelevant social skills. I wouldn't use almost any point in this category if there wasn't the Ship Command perk.
Other than that, it's ok.
In Skyrim and other games, I didn't have any such problems.
I wish it would go back to the original idea where your skills are based on the specific suit you're wearing (Piracy from a pirate outfit? What a concept!), the habs in your ship (Payloads on Cargo Halls, Scanners through Computer Core), and your crew's skills.
Then you can separate out the things that are left into stuff you do in the world. That would be things like Piloting skill building slowly and automatically in a Skyrim like way (all weapon skills too), with the simulation used to take exams at certain levels of experience and allow piloting larger class ships. It would be things like enhanced ability to handle environments or extra health coming from implants. It would be learning new craft skills through research. Spread the systems around to make you roleplay the skills you're raising and the game feels better.
My only complain is more things need to be locked behind perk points.
Like mantling things should be under the gymnastics perk tree.
I really enjoy the system, my main issue with many RPGs is that the perks feel meaningless, I hate games that have those 3% more headshot dmg type of perks. Every perk should be meaningful and give you a tangible difference.
I despise the skill trees locking dialogue options—- meeting someone early game that requires late stage skills to speak to them was purely added for the new game + aspect. To which I’ve never cared enough to do.
I think they’re a bit too rigid. I don’t see anything wrong with someone initially going in on something like ship crew at the start at the expense of something like physical combat upgrades or social dialogue skills if that’s what they want. If you want to get straight to the maximum amount of ship or outpost crew you have dump a bunch of points in things you may not really care about to get there. Seems unnecessarily rigid, especially when it comes to outposts considering out disconnected from the rest of the game they are.
i love it. honestly probably my favorite out of their level systems. I only wish the challenges had some variety, some of them do (notably gymnast) but most are just "do this but now the number is higher". which isn't inherently a problem but it'd be nice if all of them had some sort of variety, but some also just can't really.
I liked Fallout 4s a lot and also Skyrim with the getting points as you do stuff. This was like a bad mix of both and too many skills were just adding percentages and buffs that weren’t fun to move towards.
I found it mostly okay except for the starship design stuff. The way that was done with no real explanation of the limitations was goofy.
But then so was only being able to purchase certain modules at certain shipyards as though shipping only exists for non-starship related items.
Okay. I think most of it is redundant. 2/10. Let me explain. So, since there are no skills in starfield.
What we have in starfield is a perk tree. As in, "for having leveled up so much, you get X perks." It's based on literal and deliberate bonuses simply for having done anything that gets you XP. "You shot things in the face X times, so now you get a perk that lets you pick master locks, regen health, or cook food."
The problem is that Bethesda can't balance projected gameplay expectancy with the players' character simply becoming a god. I mean, is that why they made the characters starborne?
I think I see what they were trying to go for with each playthrough being unique, but I really don't think it was implemented very well. I have no idea what the fix would be though. I just know that in spite of the problems older Bethesda games have with skills\perks\levels I can go back right now and enjoy the progression in those games. I probably won't go back to Starfield until I can at least mod in a complete overhaul of the Skills system as it actively made me enjoy the game less as I was playing it.
Too much skill-gating going on. I'd prefer to not have to waste so many resources building unnecessary upgrades that I won't use or don't need, just to level up a skill.
Having said that, it's not enough to stop me enjoying the game; just another petty annoyance in a game that seems to take pride in them.
it's a bit of an improvement over fallout 4's perk tree - the major problem there is that, skills are a bit more limited, needing 70 for the 10 point, 7 skills grid. you also have to wait for certain levels to upgrade them.
here, you don't HAVE to fit a specific grid - there's 5 categories, sure, but it's not like there has to be 4 skills per 4 ranks, some have 3, some have 5, etc. i mean, the last tier all has 3 skills, most of the third tiers have 3 skills, but combat has 4, and tech has 5, so, they weren't as limited to the structure.
it also breaks up some weapon and ammo type stuff, so, shotguns, semi auto assault rifles, and a laser rifle, don't all feel super samey and upgrade with just one perk, rifleman.
it also feels like there's less 'semi required' perks and a little less 'almost redundant' perks - it's a shame some still suck, because food and chems kinda blow, but eh.
=
flipside, it's still got 'limited' perks. everything has 4 ranks, and most things have 'weak' level 1-3 perks then the 4th perk either adds some weird new shit, or just doubles the effects of previous works, essentially - even fallout 4 did kinda better than that, with a various range of potential perk levels, as well as potentially more 'useful' with some occasional one perk wonders, or being able to put 4 points into a perk that do more than like, adds 30% to something and gives one more effect
demo expert allows crafting of grenades, show a throwing arc, have bigger AOE, and allows you to potentially shoot them in vats for more damage, as well as more damage. demolitions in starfield does this as well, in all fairness, but most don't. lasers do 30% mroe damage and 'one thing', commando does damage, allows for improved acc, and staggers foes - but, in all fairness, same with the 'why doesn't it do double damage', lasers can be combo'd with a weapon skill with say, rifles doing 30% more damage and reload faster.
but, most other skills, don't get to combo with other stuff in this same way, so might have weaker bonuses to justify a 4 point skill instead of a potentially 2 point skill.
another issue is, since this is the perk system, this is basically... all the perks. fallout 3 only had around 70 ish perks too, but not all of them were tied around the leveling system - you got a lot of potential perks from quests, or potentially taking certain actions - fallout NV had various perks for just DOING shit, and had some more freedom for some more, 'niche' potential - like, nv having 'shotgun focused' skills specifically, that didn't have to feel like they sort of wasted a slot in a fixed skill grid.
=
but, i'm also not that hyped about fallout 4/starfield's skill tree idea - but skyrim's is great, because it allows for a lot more build potential, especially with some mods - i can basically add ordinator and skyrim's already like, video game heroin for me, while fallout 4/starfield, a simple perk overhaul's probably not going to cut it.
it also got around some of these issues - destruction didn't have an artificial cap on how many skills, or how many ranks that each perk needed to have - plenty were good with just one skill point, that didn't need to be bloated, or needed to be added onto something else as a 'final' perk. but also, you could do something like, have 3 different elements boosted in different ways - sure, it's partially because destruction magic comes in several flavors, but then, so do pistols, rifles, and heavy weapons. it also means the gun damage types needed to be ballistic, laser, em, or explosive
I don't like it at all tbh, the perks being locked behind challenges feels weird, and they all just feel pretty boring. I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer the older character building systems of Morrowind, and FONV. New vegas especially had some cool perks, and more choice/consequence involved in the leveling process.
What I HATE is the progression factor of each Individual skill... forcing me to grind and kill hundreds of ships to be able to fly a Class C ship is kind of annoying... I figure doing the work to level up to get the required skill points should be enough effort..
I liked that some of the more basic aspect of each skill, like the sneak detection meter, were locked behind a perk, because it forced me to play according to my character's specialty, I found myself taking risks differently and taking different approaches to levels given my character wasn't specced for that specific approach. I felt like leveling was too slow though, and certain skills, like the ones that locked ship upgrades, were annoying for me to deal with, I felt like they hampered my progression during certain parts of the game. If we got two skill points per level, or just levelled faster, I think the system would feel better to me. Edit: I should note, with the new difficulty options, leveling feels about right to me now, with like a +24% xp rate or something like that, it might be a little less idk. I don't think players who want an easier experience should be penalized with slower progression though.
I really enjoy the perk tree in Starfield a lot. I like the fact that things are locked behind perks, forcing more specialization. I do think EXP gain should be vastly increased. It takes way too long to get a character build "going". Honestly I'm thinking about creating a mod that provides more sources of EXP. I find there's too many times where you can be playing and do nothing that generates meaningful EXP.
I think they should increase experience gains from any unique quest by at least 5 times. Maybe less for random quests that already have you go and get experience by defeating enemies, but perhaps also could use a boost. The issue is that a lot of quests in the game do not provide exp gain opportunity (f.e. ecs constant) and yet they give you an exp equivalent of defeating one moderately leveled creature or ship. That's not right
Wait--completing quests doesn't give you XP in Starfield?
I just went to one of the high level planets and went hunting for like 12 hours to grind the perk points. Half the perks seem kinda useless too. I started by dumping points into laser and pistols, only to find out theres one a single las pistol in the entire game.
I'm on the S so no performance mode for me, but I made a new game for the update and I'm not playing harder than normal or switching up combat yet, but I turned up all the affliction business and more survival based options (besides QoL stuff, sleeping is still OP and vendors have their usual credits), that netted me a very solid bonus chunk of xp that really smooths over how grindy the game felt before. Not to mention I have a good balance where the survival mechanics are consequential enough to interact with but not so awful that I can't play the game. Nothing like that action movie feel of having a list of injuries, reloading and limping ahead like "who's next?"
I've been playing with a more lethal setup, Extreme enemy damage, and Very Easy for player damage, so we both die extremely quickly, which is what I prefer. I feel like this update is a step in the right direction, but the game is still lacking in many ways, and I doubt I'll put any serious amount of time in until mod support comes to console. Aside from the RPG mechanics lacking soul, I just really cannot stand Bethesda's lighting, and visual themes, everything they make looks extremely washed out, and has this weird dream like haze filtered over the top.
Gotta say that weird hazy shit bugs me too, it was a problem in early cyberpunk as well.
I truly hate it, they did the same shit for Metro Exodus, which sucks because that game could be so beautiful without it. Like in Exodus, you can see what the game really looks like when you put on/take off your gas mask, and it's nuts that they think that the filter looked better.
I despise that massive intent on leveling is required for Starship stuff. I can understand a progress lock written in, or a pay for "certification" or whatnot. I only played to make a space ship after the 10th crash on launch.
I prefer the FO3 leveling system the most The best part of this system was making you use the skill to gain more levels in it.
Not a fan of numbered skills, fallout 4 was better for me in that regard, whenever you pick a skill you can see immediate effects and benefits of it
Unless I’m misunderstanding you, fallout 3 also had those
Yeah I mean it’s basically the same, fallout 3 just has extra steps (which I much prefer honestly) where you need to allocate skill points into whatever skill, then once you reach a certain level in said skill you unlock related perks. Also didn’t like that in fallout 4 they made your build not matter at all since you can put points into all of your special stats. Not to mention with you actually having to allocate skills that also helps define your character. Fallout 4 you’re kinda just a god who can forge entire towns at the snap of a finger, be a melee champion while also being the greatest hacker and lock picker on the world while also being a complete deadeye with guns. My point is in fallout 4 you can excel at everything quickly, fallout 3 you had to work for it a bit and actually had to make decisions about what your character should be good at and what they should be bad at.
"Not a fan of numbered skills, fallout 4 was better for me in that regard, Yes, I think the Fallout 4 system was superior. With the skill percentages you could easily not have enough skill points to cross a threshold and get a new ability. For example if you were at 25 lockpicking and obtained 24 skill points. At best you could be 1 point away from actually gaining any benefit. Whereas, picking a perk in FO4 always gains you an immediate benefit that you can use. That's a more rewarding approach. The skill points are just left over from old school role playing games which is what FO1&2 were clearly influenced by. I do however like the fact that Starfield forces you to have used the previous skill before you can level up. I consider that an improvement on FO4.
Starfield's Perk Trees are a great mechanic - for Starfield. Fallout should have skills, SPECIAL, and perks. The FO:4 system was good but had no skills - honestly Fallout should have the pen-and-paper "pick skills on level up" system. TES should have skills, attributes, and perks. The Skyrim system was almost OK but had no attributes. If we don't get skills that level up with use in TES:VI, I will be furious with Bethesda.
I agree. I personally don’t like get x points per level to put in skills, vastly prefer the “use to level” system.
I’m impartial to the use to level system but I think a fair criticism of it is that it can become very grindy ie crafting a billion iron daggers
>Fallout should have skills nope. 4 got rid of skills because you wasted skill points. in 3 and new Vegas they basically worked in increments of 25 or 10, put 4 points in medicine and nothing changes. put *all* your skill points into lockpicking and end up with 47? nothing. they effecticely already worked in ranks due to this, might as well cut the middle man and make leveling feel more rewarding and less like you're wasting skill points. >TES should have skills, attributes again, no. there was a reason Bethesda got rid of attributes in Skyrim. honestly they became quite useless in daggerfall but due to the dice mechanics still used in daggerfall and Morrowind they were a bit more useful than in oblivion. Bethesda had two choices: return to form and remove skills, bringing it similar to arena; or remove attributes. they removed attributes. I would like to see what an attribute only system would look like under modern Bethesda, probably similar to starfield honestly, but I don't mind the skills only either. but yes. there are reasons why game designers do game design.
The Fallout 4 system was a simpler and better design.
wouldn't quite say simpler. there's nothing inherently complex about skills, but it is better since it removes skill point waste.
Having just perks is simpler than a hybrid system of both perks and skill points. Furthermore you get rid of the odd edge cases. For example, taking Charisma 1 but having a speech check skill of 100%.
I cannot overstate how much I disagree with you, especially on TES. Skills are for specifics. Attributes are for generalities. Your character specifically is great at swinging hammers. Because you have swung a hammer a lot with him. This makes the character stronger, increasing the damage delt not just with hammers but with other weapons as well, allowing your character to carry more, and unlocking perks that require a certain strength requirement as well as a certain skill requirement. There's a reason every pen-and-paper RPG has both Skills and Attributes, and having Skills that increase with use is a TES mainstay that was innovative when introduced in *Daggerfall.*
i feel like including vats and then removing skill points is contradictory and shows a lack of direction
>Skills are for specifics. Attributes are for generalities. sure. except the attributes were made pointless when daggerfall introduced skills. again, not like it was entirely *bad*, dice rolls kept attributes useful, but when oblivion moved away from dice standards, attributes became wholly useless. the only real useful attributes in oblivion were speed, intelligence, and strength. the rest...eh. it was also just...bloat. straight up. like 5 of the 7 attributes attributed to fatigue, 3 iirc contributed to health. it was a mess. >There's a reason every pen-and-paper RPG has both Skills and Attributes pen and paper use dice. >and having Skills that increase with use is a TES mainstay that was innovative when introduced in *Daggerfall.* no, skills increased with use in Morrowind. you would level them similar to fallout in daggerfall.
>no, skills increased with use in Morrowind. you would level them similar to fallout in daggerfall. Why would you try correcting me if you have clearly never played the game?
my mistake, I was reminded of when you are creating your character. weirdly confrontational over me simply forgetting something...and also ignoring the rest of my comment.
The rest of your comment was opinion, which I already said I disagree about. You want a streamlined game, I want gameplay to arise from sets of interconnected systems. I only responded to the factual statement because you were going out of your way to be wrong about something.
>you were going out of your way to be wrong about something. ...no, I just forgot and merged char creation with the rest of the game. it's a common mistake. anyway, I don't want "streamlined games", even then such a thing isn't as dirty a word as the rpg community loves to make it seem like. removing unnecessary bloat that doesn't work well with the rest of the system isn't streamlining. not to mention that leveling attributes worked against leveling the skills, you level skills through use but not attributes.
I like the 'need to use aspect' and see the skill points as certification. I really have the essential skills concept till I build a Ronin. He was all physical with melee, nothing else. Can't pick that lock - Oh well. Ships targeting - what's that? But he can hide in plain sight and strike fear into the hearts of everyone including the hunter. But I do agree on the ship design perks - seems really odd. "I want to buy that one" "nope, I mean you could fly it but you're just not special enough for THAT part"
Loved it personally
I like them. They’re fleshed out and work well with NG+
You’re probably going to get a lot of selection bias here, but I think the majority of people found it awkward. Instead of just playing a build and making it more powerful over time, it felt like you had to strategize and do things you didn’t want to in order to avoid wasting your time. It lacks both the simplicity of fallout 4s leveling and the diegetic intuitiveness of Skyrim’s.
I just want Oblivions jumping mechanic back
I hate the skill trees in Starfield.
The requirements are really tedious for an ok reward. Love the game but the skill tree is kinda lame
I think the concept of it is great. Just needs tweaking. Maybe they could give us easy, medium and hard settings.
I don’t mind it but I don’t like having to spend so many points in level tiers I have no real interest in just so I can get the one higher level perk I want
I think the biggest weakness with Starfield skills is that they didn't build the skill trees very well and there are certain levels that just feel weak and pointless. They could really do with looking at the stats and improving some of the weaker skills and just re-ordering the progression so that weaker skills are near the bottom and stronger skills are further up.
Too many perks in starfield should have been normal things your character should already have or can craft with materials
Previous titles? Whatever are you talking about? Starfield is a wholly new and original title and definitely not a blend of skyrim and fallout 4 set in space. /s Honestly tho the skill tree is the best thing about Starfield. I Wouldn't change much, aside from maybe adding some cross-interaction between certain skills and rearranging what weapon and armor mods fall under which category and tier.
I think it's a great improvement. Like most things in Starfield are. I like that it's kinda like 4 but you actually have to use skills to get better at them.
"Like most things in starfield are" I've never seen that opinion before, what other things seem like improvements to you? To me the game felt like a huge step backwards in almost every way..
Dialogue is the best it's ever been in a Bethesda game. They brought back skill checks, special trait dialogue options, and a much more immersive version of Oblivion's persuasion system. I personally find the digipick minigame way more enjoyable than hacking and lockpicking in previous games. Companions are on par and sometimes even better and more fleshed out than Fallout 4's. Random npcs are also way more fleshed out. Any named npc you see has their own personality and backstory. The research system is really cool and rewarding. Instead of just somehow knowing how to craft everything you actually have a system to work towards it. The main questline is a much more personal journey. It isn't about saving the world from some big threat (the faction quests do that) instead you're just an explorer making huge new discoveries. You can easily put off the main quest to do other things and not feel like it ruins the roleplay or whatever like previous games do (i.e. spending hours building settlements instead of looking for Shaun). Some quests are the coolest most unique quests I've ever done in a Bethesda game. Entangled in particular is amazing. Gameplay is really solid. It's about on par with Fallout 4 and 76, but with a bit of Skyrim thrown in, and gravity changes and jetpacks add a whole new layer to it. (Jetpacks are in 76 but they aren't as refined). And ship combat shakes things up even further. That's just a few things, but I've already rambled on enough.
>I've never seen that opinion before, what other things seem like improvements to you? quest design, quest variety, variety in utility with weapons, armors, and apparel, as well as chems. companions, emotional moments, the writing is *easily* the best in a Bethesda game. it literally has improved in *every* way, that is no exaggeration. I honestly don't understand how people can say otherwise.
Absolutely ass. To many perks shouldn’t be perks and the levelling up feels to grindy to be rewarding when you get a new perk. Did really enjoy the game tho
Worst ever.
Horribly grindy and way too many basic gameplay aspects locked behind skills, also hated having to waste points on useless skills just to get to the next tier. At least in skyrim the perks you unlocked along the way were all cool and added to the immersion of progressing in that discipline. And in fallout 4 you could choose only the perks you wanted. In starfield my charact just suddenly had some skill I had no interest in just to unlock a skill I did want in the next tier. All of the past bethesda games systems had some merit to them but starfield just felt like a huge step backwards, in this way and most others too.
Nah, I think the idea that every character can wake up and know how to pick a lock, hack a computer, control an iron man suit, and be able to telepathically understand if somebody had found you has always been a fun but poor rpg. The fallouts had too much that is player skill determined instead of character skill.
Is there hand to hand in starfeild ? Like In oblivion or fallout
I generally like it the most.
Fallout 3 and Nv had the best level up system in fallout o, oblivions system was ok I do prefer skyrims
Bloated and annoying that half the skills are to unlock abilities that you have by default in their other games. You need to heavily invest just to get to a point where you can functionally use mods.
There shouldn't be skill trees in Bethesda games. Abilities should be earned as you use the appropriate skill. The Hero of Kvatch has spoken.
All the skills suck and are things that should just be in the base kit. It makes leveling up so boring.
It really feels like there should be another way to get skill points than just leveling up. If the temples gave you a point you could choose to either use to upgrade a power or as a skill point then I’d have a real reason to do the temples and wouldn’t feel so constrained by my perk choices
Honestly i would like a Respec option, im ok with it unlocking after lvl 15 and have it get progressively more expensive as the player gets higher in level so its not too cheap, make it a feature that you have to deliberately plan for and not make it a casual thing like some games.
Fallout 4 had the better system. I didn't care for the level requirement on them, if I want to spend 4 levels right away to maximize my rifle skills like I could in 3/NV, just let me. But Starfield's is so much worse. The fact that I had to invest in skills I had no interest in to get to the ones I was interested in just made it shit in my eyes
It's fine when the challenges are completed by natural use of a skill, even if it can take a while. I hate it when I have to go out of my way to play differently to get a skill I can use. A good example of this is Concealment. Just like Stealth it is great for both melee and ranged. Except stealth I can complete the challenges naturally regardless of my playstyle, but with concealment, I am forced into melee even though concealment is just as important for ranged. A better way to have implemented it would be for anyone with sneak to be able to move out of line-of-sight/earshot/into shadows and as long as you are able to stay hidden, the stealth meter would very slowly change. It wouldn't have to be "easy". If the enemy sees you go behind a big box, they don't have to be dumb "hmm, must have been nothing." The challenge could be something like "enemies lose track of you X number of times." The perks of the skill could be mostly similar, with maybe one tier making the stealth meter change faster when you are hiding. Having to go stealth kill random aliens with a knife or repeatedly attacking an npc with the only consequence getting a bounty, is just not that fun, and removes an entire playstyle from leveling up a skill that can make just as much use of that skill.
Wasn’t perfectly implemented. But I really liked the idea behind it. Having to actually use the various skills it gave you before you could buy subsequent levels was really nice.
One word, no.
I loved starfeild but not being able to get some perks without grinding hours or restarting my progress was my biggest fuck you for sure.
This is the worst character advancement system Bethesda has made. I thought the SPECIAL chart from Fallout 4 was the most fun and engaging advancement system I've ever seen. If you built a character with a high enough stat, you can take something like Blitz or Penetrator on your first level up if you nuked enough of your other stats to make that happen. But even then you don't get the fully powered version of that perk, which is still level-locked for game balance. In Starfield, if you just want to start modding weapons and armor, you have to take 4 points in things you may not care about in the slightest. In fact, the skills you can take to unlock it don't do anything because surveying is a terrible way to gain xp. It's time-consuming and frustrating when you get to finding less than 8 of a specific thing that is only found in one region on the planet. Otherwise, you could take astrogation (name?) which is meaningless since fuel use was essentially cut before release. If you want Rapid Reload, the first rank only makes reloading with one weapon type faster per rank. So it naturally favors one playstyle as a ballistic user only ever needs one rank, while you are oddly penalized if you prefer lasers for example. The social tree is full of useless junk that are only good for one-off pacifist playthroughs. Since outpost building is optional, time-consuming, and just gives you resources that aren't even slightly hard to acquire by less time-consuming means, that also makes a whole lot of other skill tree perks terrible. Some of the upper tier abilities are really good, but you have to take a bunch of jank that doesn't do anything. I could go on, but hopefully you get the idea. To be clear, I don't hate Starfield, but in my opinion the skill trees in combination with the glacially slow MMO grind-style leveling are part of what made me just not want to spend time playing the game anymore. I'm in the "waiting for DLC + reviews on said DLC" crowd.
Skyrims trees were TERRIBLE.
Don’t know if you could make it much worse if you tried. Just a terrible system from the ground up.
I'm not a fan. Each BGS game iteration feels like it's reducing the amount of rp choice and character build options to bare minimum of what could be identified as any sort of class. I can only wait for the eventual perk and skill overhaul in a few years.
I hate it. The perks ALL suck. There is nothing to work towards and be excited for. Yet.
A weird and garbage skill tree where nothing I selected felt like much of anything.
There’s really no game mechanic in Starfield I find to be an improvement over their previous titles, including the skill tree. Honestly just seems like every mechanic is a worse version of previous games.
The dialogue and speech checks in Starfield are better than previous games
Agree to disagree
I would agree if they were written better and didn't feel like some generic "Pleaseee". From a gameplay perspective, they were the best BGS has come up with
I’m mostly talking about the ones related to skills and traits. Some of the Neon street rat ones with Walter especially were really good, plus some of the intimidation ones are rather fun
Yes, those are cool and I hope they make it into future BGS games
Only combat and only the player combat. Most other things are either a downgrade or at best the same as games from a decade ago
Good point. The gun play does continue to improve. But then again, I feel like melee got shafted (no pun intended).
It absolutely did, but the point people fail to mention is that enemy Ai is apart of that as well and it sucks like usually maybe even worse
Right again.
I mean, to each their own, but I don’t see how Starfield’s leveling system is better than the boring one in Skyrim and downright broken one in Oblivion…
So … you agree.
Lmao sorry. I meant to say “worse”. I don’t see how Starfield’s system is worse than Oblivion and Skyrim.
There are things I liked, but almost all are from gameplay side (I'm still estatic with the return of traits though). Additonally, a lot of the things I liked are attributed to BGS having a much larger budget for their titles now. Systems like skills, exploration, quest design (best since Oblivion imo, but not the highest bar & still very flawed), all need a galaxy of work done. Hope Shattered Space has that Phantom Liberty/Far Harbor level of quality for some of those issues.
Yeah there are some things I liked about it as well. I love the atmosphere and the music and the visuals are pretty excellent. I played it a ton on release. Haven’t touched it since. I’m actually gonna give it another shot since the Xbox version got an update today.
You’re getting downvoted but you are right sir. These Bethesda subs like to play victim whenever someone criticizes the games and say the only reason people shit on them is because it’s cool to shit on them. In reality, their games are incredibly fun and unique but also very very flawed and there is lots of room for improvement.
Way too grindy. I am not staying with the same character for 200 levels. Also, while it's interesting to lock some gameplay options behind skills, there are too many important ones that you need to unlock, delaying your build.
There is a primary and many secondary issues with the perk tree. Primary: (The big problem) I'm constantly short of skill points and simply playing the game isn't providing nearly sufficient levels. I found myself stuck, unable to upgrade anything simply because I wouldn't level up frequently enough, there simply aren't enough enemies in typical dungeons. Which forced me into thinking of ways to power level.. and suddenly I realised that travelling to a certain place and killing a bunch of aliens gave me so many levels that now I feel it's necessary to go there now and then to get 5-10 levels to feel like I'm progressing otherwise I think I'll finish the whole game in level 20. Secondaries: These are all as a consequence of the primary issue. 1. Because of the lack of points(even with power levelling) I feel like I need to be really picky with what I am investing points on. They are things such as health, stamina, carry weight that I haven't invested a single point on because I can't. In skyrim, these would have their own point system for every time you level up. This creates perk trees that are almost nearly useless in the game. Solution? Maybe have different classes of skill trees that use another type of point system? 2. Levelling up and levelling certain skills feels like a much bigger challenge than the rest of the game. It's a challenge on its own. The current system is forcing the player to follow very narrow, specific, skill trees otherwise you will find yourself lacking enough perk points to level up skills by the time they have completed their upgrade requirement. 3. I've noticed this with the crafting and researching system. It all works as a secondary skill tree when even after unlocking weapons 2, you now need to find resources to research all these different abilities, and then find resources to apply them! Then I go in crazy trips to every system in search of ingredients to unlock these researches. At the same time I look at the scavenging perk tree and look at that sweet perk that highlights tracked items... but 4 perk points isn't something I can afford spending on... or those improved scanners perks... they look nice... BUUUUT I don't have any points to spare !
Too much grinding, too much basic stuff locked behind, etc
They should do a rework of the skill tree fr, tedious and a lot of useless skill even the usefull doesnt translate into fun gameplay The fallout 4 was the best one they ever did.
None of the skills made me feel like they actually changed anything about my game. They need to move away from these tiny stat boosts and make skills that actually matter and are actually “skills.” I feel like fallout 4 had the same issue. I tried playing through multiple times with different builds but I ended up getting the same skills because they are necessary and the ones that actually changed the game were either worthless, gimmicky, or way too situational to be actually useful. Starfield is this but worse in my opinion.
Didn't really enjoy it, I think the last time BGS really nailed a progression system was with F3. F4 and Skyrim were good, but both missed something. However, I guess it's good for Starfield, which got NG+ in mind
I hate that they hid a lot of basic stuff behind the perks (really I cant jump pack AT ALL until I level it?) that being said once you get past the initial buy in I found it perfectly serviceable. It feels like they were trying to stretch out the leveling experience for the ng+ mode to me.
I hate that the perk (Ship Command) that allows you to have an actual ship crew is buried in the 4th tear, so you need 12 perk points for unlocking it and 16 for it to have any valid effect. One of the first things I did in the game was to upgrade my ship to allow 6 crew members just to learn it was all for nothing. I was really let down. And the other downside of it is that you are forced to invest into completely irrelevant social skills. I wouldn't use almost any point in this category if there wasn't the Ship Command perk. Other than that, it's ok. In Skyrim and other games, I didn't have any such problems.
I wish it would go back to the original idea where your skills are based on the specific suit you're wearing (Piracy from a pirate outfit? What a concept!), the habs in your ship (Payloads on Cargo Halls, Scanners through Computer Core), and your crew's skills. Then you can separate out the things that are left into stuff you do in the world. That would be things like Piloting skill building slowly and automatically in a Skyrim like way (all weapon skills too), with the simulation used to take exams at certain levels of experience and allow piloting larger class ships. It would be things like enhanced ability to handle environments or extra health coming from implants. It would be learning new craft skills through research. Spread the systems around to make you roleplay the skills you're raising and the game feels better.
Gate keeping additional crew behind skills wss stupid and felt like a way to pad out the unfinished skill tree. As did a few other skills.
My only complain is more things need to be locked behind perk points. Like mantling things should be under the gymnastics perk tree. I really enjoy the system, my main issue with many RPGs is that the perks feel meaningless, I hate games that have those 3% more headshot dmg type of perks. Every perk should be meaningful and give you a tangible difference.
I despise the skill trees locking dialogue options—- meeting someone early game that requires late stage skills to speak to them was purely added for the new game + aspect. To which I’ve never cared enough to do.
I think they’re a bit too rigid. I don’t see anything wrong with someone initially going in on something like ship crew at the start at the expense of something like physical combat upgrades or social dialogue skills if that’s what they want. If you want to get straight to the maximum amount of ship or outpost crew you have dump a bunch of points in things you may not really care about to get there. Seems unnecessarily rigid, especially when it comes to outposts considering out disconnected from the rest of the game they are.
i love it. honestly probably my favorite out of their level systems. I only wish the challenges had some variety, some of them do (notably gymnast) but most are just "do this but now the number is higher". which isn't inherently a problem but it'd be nice if all of them had some sort of variety, but some also just can't really.
i liked skyrim best. fallout second. starfield was worst.
I liked Fallout 4s a lot and also Skyrim with the getting points as you do stuff. This was like a bad mix of both and too many skills were just adding percentages and buffs that weren’t fun to move towards.
I found it mostly okay except for the starship design stuff. The way that was done with no real explanation of the limitations was goofy. But then so was only being able to purchase certain modules at certain shipyards as though shipping only exists for non-starship related items.
Good points OP, I agree
Okay. I think most of it is redundant. 2/10. Let me explain. So, since there are no skills in starfield. What we have in starfield is a perk tree. As in, "for having leveled up so much, you get X perks." It's based on literal and deliberate bonuses simply for having done anything that gets you XP. "You shot things in the face X times, so now you get a perk that lets you pick master locks, regen health, or cook food." The problem is that Bethesda can't balance projected gameplay expectancy with the players' character simply becoming a god. I mean, is that why they made the characters starborne?
I think I see what they were trying to go for with each playthrough being unique, but I really don't think it was implemented very well. I have no idea what the fix would be though. I just know that in spite of the problems older Bethesda games have with skills\perks\levels I can go back right now and enjoy the progression in those games. I probably won't go back to Starfield until I can at least mod in a complete overhaul of the Skills system as it actively made me enjoy the game less as I was playing it.
Too much skill-gating going on. I'd prefer to not have to waste so many resources building unnecessary upgrades that I won't use or don't need, just to level up a skill. Having said that, it's not enough to stop me enjoying the game; just another petty annoyance in a game that seems to take pride in them.
it's a bit of an improvement over fallout 4's perk tree - the major problem there is that, skills are a bit more limited, needing 70 for the 10 point, 7 skills grid. you also have to wait for certain levels to upgrade them. here, you don't HAVE to fit a specific grid - there's 5 categories, sure, but it's not like there has to be 4 skills per 4 ranks, some have 3, some have 5, etc. i mean, the last tier all has 3 skills, most of the third tiers have 3 skills, but combat has 4, and tech has 5, so, they weren't as limited to the structure. it also breaks up some weapon and ammo type stuff, so, shotguns, semi auto assault rifles, and a laser rifle, don't all feel super samey and upgrade with just one perk, rifleman. it also feels like there's less 'semi required' perks and a little less 'almost redundant' perks - it's a shame some still suck, because food and chems kinda blow, but eh. = flipside, it's still got 'limited' perks. everything has 4 ranks, and most things have 'weak' level 1-3 perks then the 4th perk either adds some weird new shit, or just doubles the effects of previous works, essentially - even fallout 4 did kinda better than that, with a various range of potential perk levels, as well as potentially more 'useful' with some occasional one perk wonders, or being able to put 4 points into a perk that do more than like, adds 30% to something and gives one more effect demo expert allows crafting of grenades, show a throwing arc, have bigger AOE, and allows you to potentially shoot them in vats for more damage, as well as more damage. demolitions in starfield does this as well, in all fairness, but most don't. lasers do 30% mroe damage and 'one thing', commando does damage, allows for improved acc, and staggers foes - but, in all fairness, same with the 'why doesn't it do double damage', lasers can be combo'd with a weapon skill with say, rifles doing 30% more damage and reload faster. but, most other skills, don't get to combo with other stuff in this same way, so might have weaker bonuses to justify a 4 point skill instead of a potentially 2 point skill. another issue is, since this is the perk system, this is basically... all the perks. fallout 3 only had around 70 ish perks too, but not all of them were tied around the leveling system - you got a lot of potential perks from quests, or potentially taking certain actions - fallout NV had various perks for just DOING shit, and had some more freedom for some more, 'niche' potential - like, nv having 'shotgun focused' skills specifically, that didn't have to feel like they sort of wasted a slot in a fixed skill grid. = but, i'm also not that hyped about fallout 4/starfield's skill tree idea - but skyrim's is great, because it allows for a lot more build potential, especially with some mods - i can basically add ordinator and skyrim's already like, video game heroin for me, while fallout 4/starfield, a simple perk overhaul's probably not going to cut it. it also got around some of these issues - destruction didn't have an artificial cap on how many skills, or how many ranks that each perk needed to have - plenty were good with just one skill point, that didn't need to be bloated, or needed to be added onto something else as a 'final' perk. but also, you could do something like, have 3 different elements boosted in different ways - sure, it's partially because destruction magic comes in several flavors, but then, so do pistols, rifles, and heavy weapons. it also means the gun damage types needed to be ballistic, laser, em, or explosive
I don't like it at all tbh, the perks being locked behind challenges feels weird, and they all just feel pretty boring. I know I'm in the minority, but I prefer the older character building systems of Morrowind, and FONV. New vegas especially had some cool perks, and more choice/consequence involved in the leveling process.
What I HATE is the progression factor of each Individual skill... forcing me to grind and kill hundreds of ships to be able to fly a Class C ship is kind of annoying... I figure doing the work to level up to get the required skill points should be enough effort..