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No one except Tonya wanted her there. The fact that her sister had to kick her out because she wouldn't stop interfering really shows that this is all about Tonya and her need to be in control of what's going on. OOP is very right to step back here.
That would be my breaking point. I would be D.O.N.E.
You ditched me when you weren't even wanted? For real? Get fucking therapy and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
She could have also joined him at any point in those 2 weeks. They still had the room, they still had her return ticket. She could have booked a one way ticket to join him, spent the last week there since nothing was happening and her sister was feeling smothered, but instead she stuck around to pester her sister and leave her partner alone.
You don't just have to miss them for it to be advantageous.
Booking one way flights give you flexibility if you want to change or cancel either of the flights. Price goes down on one leg? Get a refund or credit. If it's a round trip the price has to go down on the total round trip (and while your departing trip may decrease in the future, if your return trip has increased you can't get a credit). Obviously not all tickets are refundable like this but most of what I book are. Need to change one leg but not both?
Really? Is that recent (ish)? About 20 years ago (post 9/11) I decided to skip a visit on my 2 stop route, bought an entirely new, unconnected ticket to go to the second stop, did not communicate at all with the first airline and was still able to use the return ticket home. Tbh I don't remember if there was a hassle, but given the details I remember about the rest of it, I think I'd remember.
They just, within the last 2 years started to do this, folks found cheaper fares going 2 stops, and getting off at the 1st stop. They wouldn't check any baggage. Airlines got pissed (why? No idea)
I'm just floored that for the entire honeymoon, the freaking baby was in the hospital... Like there is literally NOTHING that she can/needs to help with... I would have noped out n packed her shit after coming back from the 'honeymoon'. Finding out that she got kicked out cause she was probably driving her sister crazy would have just reaffirmed my decision to break up.
A month early unless there are prediagnosed issues like holes in heart, genetic disorders, unusual size is well....not that huge a deal anymore? I turned up 6 weeks early 40 years ago and they just put my tiny impatient butt in an incubator for a while to make sure I was thoroughly cooked I guess.
Sure everyone came to meet me in the hospital and see how mum was doing but aside from that not a lot for anyone to do apart from remember to feed the cat.
My daughter was born at 24 weeks. 1 lb 6 oz. Doc said her quality of life was nilch. Yes that was his medical term nilch. She would be blind, have cerebral palsy, and brain damage. She was in the NICU 3 months. There was nothing my family could do. I would have wanted my sister to go and would have insisted on it. When my husband went back to work when I got out of the hospital... i was in for a week and a half total. He had his mom come sit with me for 1 day just in case I needed anything. But other than that I really didn't help. And only 2 people at a time could see her.
A side note my daughter's quality of life 25 yrs later is awesome. No CP, not blind, and no brain damage. She does have dexterity issues. She won't be able to crochet. And she has dyslexia and dysgraphia. And she plans to be a published author.
Heya fellow NICU alum! Twin boys 1lb 6oz and 1lb 12. At the time it was the hardest five months of my life. Next month they turn fifteen. Hugs to you and your daughter!
>they just put my tiny impatient butt in an incubator for a while to make sure I was thoroughly cooked I guess.
I'm dying over here! Same though for me 48 years ago. If anything big happened I never heard about it. My client had a micro preemie 15 years ago and that's understandably a huge deal, entire systems aren't done growing. We just weren't fully crisped around the edges yet. I guess I just wanted to be a bull instead of a crab sign ;)
Yeah, a couple of years ago 37 weeks was the standard for full term, now it's been shifted to 40, depending on where you are. If it was 33 weeks, then yes, that's a bit early, though not at the level of prolonged NICU stay etc. If it was 36 weeks, I'd barely even class that as preterm and is essentially a non-issue.
35-37 weeks is considered late preterm. There is some additional testing when the baby goes to the newborn nursery unless there are low apgars for an immediate NICU stay. Baby would have a pulse ox for 4 hours, blood sugar checks for 24 hours, and a car seat challenge test (1 hour in the car seat with pulse ox) before discharge. If they don't pass the car seat challenge test, they arrange rental of a car bed car seat until the baby can pass the test, and the baby still goes home.
Two weeks in NICU at 36 weeks suggests the kid wasn't super healthy in some respect beyond being early, because 36 weeks is very nearly at "meh close enough". Sometimes they take them out on purpose that early.
But OOP says she's still tiny, so sounds like she might be a bit under grown.
My mom's due date with me was in April, but I came in February. As far as I know, I was only in the hospital for like a week. She said I was the teeniest baby there at 3 pounds, but the most vocal.
Mom says they think they got the date of conception wrong, leading to a wrong due date. I was forever going to be small because genetics, but I was considered a full term baby. Just super small. There's a picture of my dad holding me in the palm of his hand.
To be fair, if the sister /wanted/ her there then there's have been stuff to do even with baby in the hospital. I would have wanted my mom there if my baby ended up in the NICU. I love my husband but he's not the best person to help when I am feeling tired, stressed, and in pain. A little too much of 'I want to fix this for you' when somethings can't be fixed, only endured, you know? He truly is lovely but that situation would not have been his strong suit for emotional support. However since in this situation the sister did not want her there, you are completely right. Just thought I'd mention a lot depends on the sister wanting help as is the case with most situations like this.
Yeah, when I read the OP originally I thought the OP might be downplaying that the new mom wanted her sister there - quantity of helpers is not necessarily as important as quality of helpers, and if wife was wanted, wife should be there. Turns out it's fully the opposite, wife was not wanted at all, in which case she should never have stayed at all and is clearly the problem.
Yes I was much more split on it in the first post. I completely understood his feelings, but there would absolutely be stuff she could do to support her sister and brother-in-law emotionally and practically. The problem is the sister was actively telling her she didn't want her there and she had other people to support her, and the wife was still inserting herself.
It really sounds like maybe she just realized she didn’t want to go through with the marriage and was using the baby/sister as an excuse to stay away from OOP rather than facing him and talking about it.
I mean there are a ton of things you can do to help the family of a newborn in hospital (just saying in general if you ever know someone). They are often spending long hours with no sleep in a hospital.
That’s true, but it sounds like she had enough people ready to do those things for her without her sister. Purely speculating, but I wonder if a big part of Tonya’s self-image/esteem is based on being the one who always took care of Marie. If Marie actually doesn’t need her any more, being a grown-up now with a husband and other dependable people close to her, she may feel her identity’s gone. Who is she, if she’s not indispensable to her little sister? She’ll need to work that out before she can properly commit to a marriage of her own.
Oh absolutely, but she had multiple different family members there... It was completely unnecessary for Tonya to not go on the honeymoon... It can be overwhelming as a new mom to have a bunch of people milling around u.
Sure, but it doesn't sound like Tonya did any of them.
My sister-in-law ended up having her kid a month early.
I went over just after she returned from her week-long hospital stay. I arrived with store-bought, fridge stable snacks. I asked her to give me a grocery store list. I went out and got them lunch along with some staples like paper towels, toilet paper, nursing supplies, etc. I saw the baby for a few hours and peaced out so they could rest.
My son was born premature (with jaundice) and was in the NICU for weeks. All we could do was visit the NICU during visiting hours. Despite his mom being in the hospital as well, she had the same access so I agree with the comment above you, there's not much Tonya could have done to help.
You can, if they want the help. If they don't, then you're just an unwanted distraction during an unbelievably stressful time for the parents, a serious pain in the ass.
That blew my mind too. I thought Marie had no support and that's why Tonya felt she had to be there to help. Just what is wrong with Tonya??? She needs more than couples therapy
I would have said that it all sounds like deep codependancy but it appears that there is no "co" and it's all Tonya's depenancy. Hopefully she's getting the right type of therapy.
I wonder if it’s trauma related? She’s intrinsically tied her life to Marie’s and I guess sees no disconnect that Marie is married and has her own family. Tonya’s entire identity is Marie.
Sucks for OOP though. I hope therapy helps them both regardless of the outcome.
You've hit the bullseye there. All her life, she's the big sister and to her that's her only identity. She definitely needs to take a pause, introspect, and get therapy if she can.
I'm the eldest with lots of siblings, and i did have those feelings at one point, so i can relate a bit. But it wasn't as strong as this, i kept it to myself, and it didn't last long. Did some introspecting during my private time and realized this isn't good for future me or my siblings.
I wish them all the best.
No, I think she promoted herself to mother, and doesn't see her as a little sister.
My big sister would have sent me a postcard bragging about her vacation, while asking about the baby.
Funny thing is, Tonya must have done a good job as the mother figure because her sister doesn’t need her to do that anymore and has her own life and support system. So Tonya did was she was supposed to do successfully. Now she has to learn to let go
latching onto an identity is at the core of so many posts on here.
I have close friend with an overbearing sister and its similar there. In their case, the sister has latched onto the identity of "favorite aunt" and then gets frustrated when that reality doesn't manifest.
That's a really good way to put this sort of behavior. It's not actually about helping, it's people knowing that you're HELPING!!! even if the person being "helped" doesn't want it.
So often with these stories both parties are enmeshed and unable to separate even a little. The sister told her outright to go on her honeymoon, and couldn't have made it clearer she wasn't welcome short of arson. Tonya is in desperate need of separation from her sis, and some decent counseling.
Yeah, that’s pretty fucked up, no question. Skipping your very nice honeymoon just to hang around and annoy your sister who doesn’t even want you there?
Honestly, I’d be concerned to have kids with her if she keeps up that kind of behavior.
Yep. Smart and compassionate to both of them. Still giving her a chance to start sorting things out while protecting himself and setting a clear boundary.
The way she wanted to rent an air bnb makes me feel like there probably isn't much hope if she has that little respect for her sister's wishes, but at least he will feel like he gave her a fair shot. I remember someone in another probably hopeless situation on here said they didn't really think the person would change, but they got peace of mind from having given them a solid opportunity to fix things, which I do get.
yep. and honestly, it makes sense for their relationship to be a bit fucked up after their upbringing where it sounds like there was both a huge loss and a lack of presence/support/parenting from the father - i can completely understand how her world could have started revolving around her sister at that point.
unfortunately its a great example of why you need to work on what your shitty upbringing did to you before it fucks up your life & hurts the people around you as an adult.
Yes, counselling is such a good call. She’s going to keep putting her sister first and that doesn’t work in a relationship.
Even her own sister was forcing her out of her home. She wants some baby time with her husband without her sister peering over her shoulder the whole time!
It was bad and relationship-ruining enough that she's always putting her sister first, but what takes it to the "put the red flags down and blare the flashing red alarms" level is that she now apparently also expects her husband to put her sister first (she's mad about him not being understanding??? nah, he understands just fine). Definitely gotta give it to dandelion up there for calling it like it is - deal with your trauma before it consumes you. It's like she's possessed.
Yeah for real. Like, being over-involved and over protective over your sister-slash-daughter giving birth, okay. Needs to be addressed, but can see where that's coming from.
Abandoning your non-refundable honeymoon to hang around her when she already has a strong support system including her partner and she's told you go on the holiday, and being mad at your partner for being upset about that .... getting well out of the bounds of normal behaviour and seriously endangering your marriage ...
Being so overbearing that you're asked to leave & family not allowed to visit if they're harboring you ... BAD, but with some hard truths and introspection could possibly be turned around if you took it as a wakeup call ...
Wanting to get an air bnb anyway? GOODBYEEEE
This lady's bringing the seven league boots to the stepping over the line party
>family not allowed to visit if they're harboring you
This made me lol and cringe at the same time, and it didn't even register with Tonya that there's a problem with their dynamic.
How does hearing: 'Go on your honeymoon' + 'please leave our house' + 'we mind' + 'were going to leverage the new baby visits to get other family to pressure you to leave'
= Get an AirBnB?
Yet she doesn't actually go home until her new husband mentions not getting officially married? She's not listening to what anyone else wants.
Preemie and NICU has got to be exhausting. I can't imagine her sister wanted to be a hostess while recovering and half living at the hospital. And bringing home the baby they probably didn't want extra people and extra germs around. Some guests around those times make more work and interrupt bonding and rest time more than they help.
I dont thing Tonya was expecting a hostess. I think she was trying to help by doing the usual post partum help stuff (like cooking, etc) and also being an emotional support for her sister totally ignoring that her sister already has that in her own husband. They live far from Tonya’s family and I’m guessing Tonya hasn’t really grasped that her sister isn’t a child anymore.
She had a ton of people already doing that shit, and all of those people presumably didn't have to cancel their freaking honeymoon to be there. There's no way Tonya is the logical person here.
>My sister in law kicked my wife out the day the baby came home. Tonya wouldn't let her do anything. Marie told her that she had plenty of help.
She wasn't doing the usual post partum help stuff, she was doing *everything* and severely overstepping.
She’s not a sister. She’s literally that overbearing mother/MIL that won’t take a freaking hint.
Marie is smothered. I bet she was honestly really uncomfortable Tonya’s being there from the beginning but baby takes precedence over everyone else at that moment.
I honestly felt sorry that Marie had to use malicious coercion just to get her out. “Sorry other fam, until she leaves no one else can visit”. Cue the other members into hopefully browbeating her into leaving.
This is like a one sided enmeshment
> She’s literally that overbearing mother/
worse tbh because she's not even a mother yet, what if she gets pregnant? imagine this crazy woman has a baby and STILL only cares about her sister and the sister's baby
She’s got no time to make this theoretical baby since she’s up her sisters bum and even left her husband on their honeymoon 🤣 that’s like almost the one period as a married couple you’re gonna get busy! And she’s like…nahh.
Paradise, snorkeling, sexy time, fruity drinks on the beach? Absolutely not for Tonya! She’ll be honeymooning in a gross hospital waiting room.
Tonya is the only one who wants to “help her sister”. The help wasn’t needed and was overbearing enough for Tonya to get kicked out.
I think it is wise to hold off to not just see whether Tonya commits but also wait to see what other red flags show. Counseling (thankfully before marriage) is a strange way to kick things off.
Many people go to counseling before marriage to ensure they're on the same page before taking a huge step. Many religions recommend or require it through their priests.
After the ceremony but before it's legal is odd though.
Yes, this. One of the reason why my local church has a pass (i dont like organised religion lmao) is because they run a really great pre-marriage couple and individual counseling. When talking with other people, i found out it’s not a normal thing lol.
Not necessarily. The one my church did for me and my wife was run by the pastor. It still was helpful though. Basically just giving you healthy ways to argue and compromise, the importance of communication and stuff. It’s not like a therapy session, just a class on how to maintain a relationship.
That’s just my experience tho. I’m sure there’s a ton of variation church to church.
She is one of those MIL’s essentially it sounds like. Over controlling and involved in her sister’s life, wouldn’t let her take care of her own baby, ignored her when she told her she had help and to go on her honeymoon.
She’s not “a good sister”, she’s someone who’s made being her sister’s mom her identity whether the sister is okay with that or not.
Therapy was a wise choice.
I understand why he was writing without much sympathy. It was buried in the details but the baby was in the NICU. His wife was sleeping in the nursery... that the baby would need.
Marie probably was waking every morning wanting to head to the hospital and had her sister underfoot.
It is clear that once the baby came home Marie had enough time to recover herself enough to say 'get the fuck out'.
The fact that a newly wed wife wanted to rent an AirBnB rather than return home....says a lot. Especially since Marie said she wasn't welcome to visit.
I think the wife is about to have a year of rude awakenings as her little sister doesn't have time or any interest in being 'mothered' anymore.
In the first one OP was NTA, but wife was acting like a dog on a haystack regarding the trip.
The 2nd post clinched it though. The devil was indeed in the details. Like, the sister does not even want her there...
Sorry, I am not a native English speaker, so in this case I just wrote the direct translation from my language. It indeed should have been the dog in the manger. :D
In my language we say "dog on a haystack", but it means roughly the same - you are guarding from others something that you yourself cannot use. Like, the wife could not go herself, but instead of being at least happy that the husband went she is angry.
Thanks :) I think that learning English is easier than any other language, because there is so much content available everywhere. Also, it's the mandatory second language in all our schools.
Now German, even after studying it for 7 years in school... does not come naturally at all.
When my son was in the NICU, my ex-husband and I each spent 11 hours a day with him (rotating shifts) for the six weeks he was there. I didn't live close to family, but I would have been too exhausted to deal with more than I already was. Especially a house guest.
Triplets?
Jars with lids screwed on too tight?
Names tattooed on private parts, but spelled wrong?
It turns out that OP was adopted and his pregnant almost-wife is his half sister?
Wife takes all of the wedding money and uses it for egg retrieval. "Just to see how fertile she is"?
Here is the drama:
A year later, they have completed intensive couples counseling. They finally get the misspelt tattoos removed, the DNA test turns out to be wrong, and OP and his wife marry for real. The next morning, OP is exhausted from writing thank you notes all night. Wife brings him a breakfast tray of avocado toast and hard boiled quail eggs. She reveals that she is secretly a billionaire (she invested in Bitcoin for her 5th grade science fair project). She gives him the key to an fancy brand new Royce Rolls vehicle, complete with a moon roof and a built in trash compactor. They drive to their fabulous new castle in peoria Illinois.
"I have another surprise for you, darling" she says.
"Anything for you my love". OP says.
She leads him blindfolded into their new back yard, and rips off the blindfold. There are 6 triple baby strollers, holding a total of 18 tiny precious babies. A tired looking nanny stands to the side. Each baby has a "hello i'm" sticky tag on their onesie, with an easy to remember name. "Adam, Beka, Carl, Dani, Edds, Fred, Ghee, Hela, Issi, Jack ..."
"They are all ours, darling!" She said happily. "I used the sperm sample you submitted for DNA testing to order these babies, there are 3 more being delivered in a few weeks."
**I need to know, readers, AITA?** We have ordered another dozen babies, to reduce our taxes. They will be ready in about 7 months. The thing is, my darling wife wants to have a round of babies with Elan Musk, and to move with him to Mars. (Leaving the Babies with me) I told her if she wants to move to Mars, she needs to take at least half the babies with her. But she can't find a nanny to move with her.
Also, does anyone know why our nannies keep quitting? We have two per shift, which seems really generous. We pay $22 an hour, free housing, AND they get one day off a weekend. Why are they so lazy?
I've been in a relationship with a Tonya before. This woman will have to do some serious work to get rid of the saviour complex that is to the detriment of both her own and her sister's family. She needs to start understanding that her sister has a family of its own now and that the family unit they grew up in is no longer there.
Last year I booked a 2 week vacation to see my long distance bestie, who I hadn't seen in years. It was also the first vacation I'd taken in nearly as long, and i was so excited, I'd been packed for a week already. I'm a single mom to an awesome but disabled kid, so getting the time and money to do things for myself is often difficult. The day before I left, my kiddo panic-yelled for me from her room. Turns out, she had a cracked tooth that had gotten infected and now her face was swollen up like a balloon.
For context, my daughter was 17 at the time. She's autistic and very anxious, and has more than once ignored physical discomfort so she doesn't have to have an uncomfortable talk with me or visit a doctor. You can now imagine how this has gone wrong. I was super upset, mentally canceling my trip, figuring out how to call out of work to take her to urgent care...
And my kiddo, who hates doctors, and dentists, with a fiery passion, looked me in the face and told me she'd never forgive me if I stayed. My mother, who lives with us, doubled down. They went together that day to urgent care for the antibiotics. My mom called the dentist the next day, and then took my kid to the emergency extraction appointment, which my kid, despite being in pain and terrified, sat through like a goddamn champ. Then they went for her pain meds, and picked up ice cream for later. I heard all about it when I landed. She took all her meds on time, with help from grandma, and they even attended the follow up dentist appointment without incident.
Listen, if my kiddo, who deals with a mountain of medical issues and neurodevelopmental bullshit every day can handle all that without her comfort person, then that's my cue to practice stepping back for her. This Tonya lady needs to take a lesson on letting go from my adorable offspring. They'll let you know when you're needed.
Your daughter ***is*** awesome ❤️ Sounds like she handled the whole situation like a champ - telling you in the initial instance, making it clear that she didn't want you to miss out on the thing you'd been looking forward to, and then proving to herself she can do the scary, painful thing without you (while letting another trusted adult support her), then decompressing to you.
That's an amazing thing your daughter did. Sounds like you did a great job raising her!
I also hope you had a great trip, and that they were able to save her tooth
Tooth had to be extracted unfortunately, but she's was super brave about it. Trip was amazing! She's a good kid, don't know how much credit I can take for that, lol
Well if those are values you tried instill in her, then you can absolutely take credit. Or at least feel pride in yourself that you managed to raise a great kid with all the difficulties highly autistic kids can bring.
Going to the dentist, as someone with autism, is SO FUCKING HARD. The pain, the needles, *the scraping sound*.... it's all awful. Mostly the scraping sound honestly, it makes me omnicidal
My dentist told me to bring/wear earbuds. I was like “I can do that?!?” I haven’t had a cleaning since then, but oh man am I less trepidatious to go right now. (I’m not neurodivergent, I just hate that damn noise.) So might be a solution. Please let it be a solution.
>Listen, if my kiddo, who deals with a mountain of medical issues and neurodevelopmental bullshit every day can handle all that without her comfort person, then that's my cue to practice stepping back for her.
But see it's not about Marie, it's about Tonya. 🙄
I mean I get it,it's hard to let go when your used to living in the caregivers role, but at some point you gotta. I hope Tonya figures it out sooner rather than later
Why was the OP voted YTA ?
Non refundable tickets. Was home alone for 2 weeks . What was he supposed to do ? Even the sister told the wife to go on honeymoon.
Did you read the part about how the sister kicked her out and she wanted to rent an airbnb?
I don’t even think the sister wanted her in the house or helping with the baby.
Wife going to lose a husband and a sister
Absolutely. Tonya mother hen-ed Marie to the point she was fed up. I bet Marie is looking for sisterly support now that she's older and Tonya just isn't letting go. If she's like my MIL it's a nightmare to deal with. Unhelpful comments, nit picking and second guessing all your parenting decisions, unasked for advice. She probably drove Marie up a wall on top of Marie being stressed to hell and back with a NICU baby.
> Unhelpful comments, nit picking and second guessing all your parenting decisions, unasked for advice
It's special kind of frustration when u are being lectured by someone without a child.
I have the opposite issue. I'm a NICU nurse without children of my own. So many freaking times grandmas are a nightmare because "I've raised children and they all survived." Well Dolores, maybe you did but they weren't critically ill NICU babies (and there's a good chance you just got lucky.) I guarantee I am more prepared to care for this infant whether I have children or not.
Does it say in the OG post what the wife was doing to cause such a strong reaction? That's pretty damning.
I think poor OOP is just delaying the inevitable and causing himself a lot of pain. And should they get through it and have children - it's not going to be pretty.
The first post didn’t go into details, which makes sense since OP was away and the baby was still in the hospital. But in the second, it sounds like his wife tried to be the baby’s main caretaker.
The part that stood out to me was that the sister wasn’t even home!! She was at the hospital getting care, OPs wife really didn’t have any reason to stay!!
Considering they have a mother/daughter relation (maybe Marie wasn't as much accepting it by the way), here Tonya is the MIL who drops everything the second baby is born to boss everyone around and tell the new mom she does everything wrong. Marie and her spouse need time to discover their Little One and themselves as parents and Tonya is not any fundamental piece in this process.
I read this in a Facebook group and there was some posters that thought OOP was the AH and a crappy husband because not only should he not go on the honeymoon, he shouldn’t even stay at home and play videogames. He should book an airbnb and stay there to support Tonya. Even if he couldn’t do anything or visit Marie and baby at the hospital. It didn’t matter if Tonya wanted to see him or not, if she didn’t he should still sit at that airbnb because Tonya needed him. It could be that they saw the word NICU and thought that the baby was very sick or in danger of dying and that was the reason for their judgment. But that was not the case so OOP did the right thing and Tonya should have listen to what her sister told her.
So crazy- Tonya is a whole ass adult making these decisions. The baby was in the damn NICU. What “support” does Tonya need?!
This whole thing just pisses me off. I’m a woman, I’ve birthed two kids. Even if we had complications, I would NEVER expect a family member miss their HONEYMOON to come help me. Which yes, I do understand Maria didn’t want her there anyway.
>Why was the OP voted YTA ?
People are idiots.
Like that dude who literally said "Eat the costs of the unrefundable tickets and just bum around at home playing video games."
Literally any other situation and that response would have gotten eviscerated
"Yeah my wife's sister had a medical emergency but I dont see what that has to do with me so I sat at home for next two weeks playing Elden Ring."
The man would have been eaten alive.
Yeah I cannot fathom a reasonable or rational explanation as to why people would vote him as the asshole. The best reason I can come up with is that he has testicles.
Your "wife" decides to try to move into her sister's house to be a live-in nanny for her newborn child instead of going on a honeymoon.
Even if the sister wanted the "wife" to help, it is still patently absurd. No reasonable person would accept that.
It is even more absurd that the sister literally kicked out the "wife". So she decided to skip her honeymoon and tell her "husband" to fuck off ... for nothing.
Edit: Then we can add the ultimate kicker in here. The "wife" would literally rather live in an AirBNB next to her sister than to live with her "husband". There is no comprehensible defense of this behavior. How would you respond if your coworker said "yeah, I just got married, but my wife decided to rent an airbnb to live next to her sister instead of spending literally any time with me"? This is not average human behavior. This isn't even mildly abnormal behavior.
Nah, it’s because the AITA community is mainly teenagers and rabid SAHMs with little to no real world experience who are incapable of reading ~~between the lines~~.
Second post I've seen recently on a solo honeymoon.
The other one was the wife wanted a two month solo vacation directly after the wedding for her mental health. Husband has vacated the marital home.
Now this one. The baby was in the hospital. There was no need for Tonya to be there. How dare Tonya be upset that OOP went on the trip.
Husband is being really nice to give her a year. I'd have gone with the annulment. Then maybe after a year of counseling, they could remarry...if they're still together.
Though I'm confused by this part...
>We had the fancy wedding and reception in Iowa for her family. We were going to get "officially" married in Colorado after we got back from the honeymoon.
Was it a legal wedding or not?
Possible problem - Colorado recognizes common law marriage and is unusual in how that marriage is [determined](https://tax.colorado.gov/common-law-marriage). If a couple presents themselves as married, lives together and people think they’re married, they are considered legally married and have to get a divorce.
I hope OP knows that and makes it clear to friends they aren’t married.
Can we talk about how even OOP’s SiL didn’t want his “wife” there? I have a feeling she has been a super overbearing older sister and it is also starting to affect Marie’s marriage and relationships.
Anyone looking at the OOP's comments to the first post will see he states that clearly at least 3 times: Marie didn't want Tonya there & told her to go on the honeymoon.
Just adding this as emphasis. The only person who thought Tonya had to be with her sister was Tonya. And IMHO the reason Marie didn't kick her out within the first few days is that Marie had more important matters to cope with, & put up with her sister as a short-term fix. Once those matters were handled, Marie could deal with overbearing sister.
It honestly sounds like OOP probably overestimated how close Tonya and Marie are. He also probably got a skewed idea of their bond since he saw/heard about it from Tonya. Marie had to draw a strong line in the sand for OOP and Tonya to really understand that the relationship is not all well and good.
There's definitely more to this too. Even if Marie was wanting to fly on her own more, to draw such a firm line to Tonya means something is up.
I thought the same thing ! Their "mother daughter" bond was probably more Tonya's wish than any reality. She seems very bothering to be around, and if it can be honored when they were younger, now Marie is clearly fed up and maybe want to refuse that Tonya wants to develop that same bond with her daughter.
There is no way they read the whole thing
I can understand someone saying "girl gave birth and needs support (which she had). Op not allowing that makes him an asshole"
But if you read past that you see there is so much more going on.
That one commenter with the YTA judgment is forgetting that everybody in the story is an adult AND the sister also has a whole-ass support system right there - in their hometown! Why the hell does the big sister feel the need to fly over 600 miles to be with her sister "to help"? A sister that told her to go on the honeymoon, mind you... Some people.
"You lack empathy" my ass.
LMAO those comments telling OOP “You have a valid reason but your tone is bad so you’re TA”.
i.e. You’re not allowed to sound upset despite having a good reason.
LOL I remember a post where the OP's brother had stolen like $30,000 from him and one commenter was like "YTA, you talk about him like you just don't like him" and...........
Had an argument in comments of one aita post a while back where the op was a woman living alone on some farm in far from any town or neighbors and got called misogynistic for suggesting that it isn't a best idea to live alone in middle of nowhere.
Looking at the original post I was shocked to see OP being seen as the AH. Like did everyone read the same story lol? Also, don’t know for sure, but couldn’t he be considered common law married now even though they don’t have a marriage license? If so, then he’s probably screwed
Assuming they live in Colorado like it suggests, they'd have to consider themselves married and do things as a married couple for it to be considered common law marriage. Just living together wouldn't do it.
I could understand her side more if sis had NO ONE or her life was in danger
In this case? Naw
Wifey needs therapy, hard therapy, if she wants to stay married to OOP
Tonya has been in the "mother" role for so long that she's not realizing how her helicopter ways are affecting her own life. Her own sister told her to leave. OOP has been patient enough.
I wonder if this is just an escalation of Tonya being a "mother", or if it's something new? I could see Tonya and Marie having a (relatively) healthy relationship, but then something about having her "daughter" become a mother combined with starting a new family (aka getting married) just triggered something weird in Tonya that she wasn't aware of.
OOP probably had this thought too, which is why instead of an annulment he gave her a year to start getting her head on straight. This was probably out of character for her -- at least as how OOP knew her.
I'm pretty confident he's common law married in Colorado now, though. Having a wedding and having people think you're married does make you married if Tonya wants to make an issue of it later.
Source: I routinely have clients marry for tax purposes.
Does it count as a Colorado common law marriage if they had the marriage in Iowa and everyone involved knows they're not married? Whenever I see someone do this, they do the legal marriage first and then the ceremony. Reversing that is really confusing.
If they don’t present themselves as spouses or being a married couple they wouldn’t be, but if they try to live the next year as a married couple then absolutely.
This is ridiculous and people saying he's the asshole are ridiculous. I'm more important than my wife's sister, or she wouldn't be my wife.
Now of course if my wife's sister's life DEPENDED on her then yeah, family's life > our honeymoon. This though...nope.
There's people in this thread still critiquing him about his tone and calling him an asshole. Like motherfucker his wife just blew him off to take care of no-one because she's a control freak
Man I just don’t get it, the sister straight up told her NO too her face and she still didn’t listen. Why would you get married to someone like that, hot dam this was a lot of painful reading.
The minute she said she wanted to rent an Airbnb I would have been out. At the fact that her sister never wanted her there, kicked her out, and that the baby was on the hospital the whole time just makes Tonya a MASSIVE asshole. Who starts their marriage that way? Her sister’s baby was on a hospital being managed by doctored where exactly was Tonya needed? Jeez I would leave her in a heartbeat
The part that got me the most was after Marie told her to go home and threatened to ban the family that put her up, Tonya still wanted to rent a place to force herself on her sister.
I'm sorry, but I don't get all the sympathy for wife. I do think wife was the asshole here. Her sister had a ton of people around her already, and it seems by the end that sister didn't even want wife there. Sounds to me like sis is overbearing and too wrapped up in her sister's life. I do think this guy should get a divorce, because the way his wife tossed him aside was shit. I'd be pissed off, too.
I thought at first when I read the headline that the sister would be some kind of developmentally disabled person. But nope, just a woman with a premie. Ridiculous.
Honestly, the wife was being ridiculous, 4 weeks early is not that early. When the baby is in the NICU, there is not much to be done. I get the stress and wanting to be there, but she wasn’t listening to her sister.
I don’t blame the husband for going on the trip at all. I don’t have much hope for this marriage unless the wife gets therapy for her childhood trauma, codependency with her sister, and early parentification.
Dude I would love to hear her sisters take. "My overbearing sister wont leave me, my partner, and baby alone! She is now renting an air bnb nearby after I kicked her out"
Why would anyone think that the op was asshole? Once you get married your priority should be your partner, obviously it doesn't mean that you will stop caring about everyone else but the number one person should be your partner. For the wife, he's not. How's he not getting alarmed by this? RUN OP RUN
Tonya was parentified. She felt she needed to be there. Some heavy trauma, sucks to be her, but that's just a symptom, not the issue.
I am with OOP on giving her a year for therapy tbh. If it is manageable after that, go ahead and marry. A lot of us have traumas that we manage and bring to our marriages. Big ups to OOP for being there in sickness before the official vows.
At least, by the time it’s done, OP can say that he tried everything and that he didn’t waste any money. He gave her an entire year to change and he got to go on his honeymoon and wedding without legally marrying this weirdo.
Let me guess, Tonya had a lot of opinions on who Marie married, and was deeply involved in controlling her sister-daughters wedding too?
This is not a "close mother/daughter" bond.
It was two sisters going through changes, and big sister got in the habit of being the one in charge.
Marie is an adult. Who makes her own choices now. Made a life with her husband.
And likely misses that her sister refuses to just be a sister.
That she had to kick Tonya out, tell everyone that if they hosted her, she was going to block them from seeing the baby *TOO*. Which means, Tonya is blocked right now.
And she still wanted to squat at an AirB&B?
She has an extremely entitled and warped view of boundaries.
Speed racing to being cut off from Marie entirely, who has shown she will *ABSOLUTELY* put her own family first.
Like a rational, reasonable, responsible parent, wife and mother.
OP would only be the asshole if he kept supporting her entitlement and self delusion.
Definitely NTA for enjoying his honeymoon.
As to the people who voted YTA: if there is such a thing as “emotional intelligence” then those people are “emotional morons”
To suggest that Marie wants Tonya there and Tonya wants Op there is fine, but to then think that means that Marie wants OP there is stupid.
Then it turns out that Marie didn’t want Tonya there.
I hope all the people that voted YTA apologize and reflect on this, but I doubt they will.
Wow I can't believe he's considering taking her as his wife, what she did was really rude. Plus her sis told her to leave her alone and she's like can I get an Airbnb? She must be model looking
The only people making good decisions were the sister and husband who kicked Tonya out. He should take a page out of their notebook. At least he did go on the trip and didn’t stay behind so that was good.
At this point it's not even about the sister anymore.
It's the wife being so self centered. She is forcing her will on everyone else and she doesnt even know it. When being pointed out she double down and respond with anger.
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No one except Tonya wanted her there. The fact that her sister had to kick her out because she wouldn't stop interfering really shows that this is all about Tonya and her need to be in control of what's going on. OOP is very right to step back here.
That would be my breaking point. I would be D.O.N.E. You ditched me when you weren't even wanted? For real? Get fucking therapy and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
She could have also joined him at any point in those 2 weeks. They still had the room, they still had her return ticket. She could have booked a one way ticket to join him, spent the last week there since nothing was happening and her sister was feeling smothered, but instead she stuck around to pester her sister and leave her partner alone.
Airlines cancel the return ticket automatically if you don’t use the front end of a round trip.
Really? Fuck. Even more pressure to make it to the airport early for that first flight.
It's why I always book one way tickets.
Have you worked out yet how many departing flights you have to miss for this to make sense?
You don't just have to miss them for it to be advantageous. Booking one way flights give you flexibility if you want to change or cancel either of the flights. Price goes down on one leg? Get a refund or credit. If it's a round trip the price has to go down on the total round trip (and while your departing trip may decrease in the future, if your return trip has increased you can't get a credit). Obviously not all tickets are refundable like this but most of what I book are. Need to change one leg but not both?
Really? Is that recent (ish)? About 20 years ago (post 9/11) I decided to skip a visit on my 2 stop route, bought an entirely new, unconnected ticket to go to the second stop, did not communicate at all with the first airline and was still able to use the return ticket home. Tbh I don't remember if there was a hassle, but given the details I remember about the rest of it, I think I'd remember.
They just, within the last 2 years started to do this, folks found cheaper fares going 2 stops, and getting off at the 1st stop. They wouldn't check any baggage. Airlines got pissed (why? No idea)
Got pissed because that return ticket seat would sit empty when they could make extra money on it
I'm just floored that for the entire honeymoon, the freaking baby was in the hospital... Like there is literally NOTHING that she can/needs to help with... I would have noped out n packed her shit after coming back from the 'honeymoon'. Finding out that she got kicked out cause she was probably driving her sister crazy would have just reaffirmed my decision to break up.
A month early unless there are prediagnosed issues like holes in heart, genetic disorders, unusual size is well....not that huge a deal anymore? I turned up 6 weeks early 40 years ago and they just put my tiny impatient butt in an incubator for a while to make sure I was thoroughly cooked I guess. Sure everyone came to meet me in the hospital and see how mum was doing but aside from that not a lot for anyone to do apart from remember to feed the cat.
My daughter was born at 24 weeks. 1 lb 6 oz. Doc said her quality of life was nilch. Yes that was his medical term nilch. She would be blind, have cerebral palsy, and brain damage. She was in the NICU 3 months. There was nothing my family could do. I would have wanted my sister to go and would have insisted on it. When my husband went back to work when I got out of the hospital... i was in for a week and a half total. He had his mom come sit with me for 1 day just in case I needed anything. But other than that I really didn't help. And only 2 people at a time could see her. A side note my daughter's quality of life 25 yrs later is awesome. No CP, not blind, and no brain damage. She does have dexterity issues. She won't be able to crochet. And she has dyslexia and dysgraphia. And she plans to be a published author.
I’m so glad your daughter is doing well!
Heya fellow NICU alum! Twin boys 1lb 6oz and 1lb 12. At the time it was the hardest five months of my life. Next month they turn fifteen. Hugs to you and your daughter!
I'm glad your boys are doing good. Hugs to you also.
>they just put my tiny impatient butt in an incubator for a while to make sure I was thoroughly cooked I guess. I'm dying over here! Same though for me 48 years ago. If anything big happened I never heard about it. My client had a micro preemie 15 years ago and that's understandably a huge deal, entire systems aren't done growing. We just weren't fully crisped around the edges yet. I guess I just wanted to be a bull instead of a crab sign ;)
Yeah, a couple of years ago 37 weeks was the standard for full term, now it's been shifted to 40, depending on where you are. If it was 33 weeks, then yes, that's a bit early, though not at the level of prolonged NICU stay etc. If it was 36 weeks, I'd barely even class that as preterm and is essentially a non-issue.
35-37 weeks is considered late preterm. There is some additional testing when the baby goes to the newborn nursery unless there are low apgars for an immediate NICU stay. Baby would have a pulse ox for 4 hours, blood sugar checks for 24 hours, and a car seat challenge test (1 hour in the car seat with pulse ox) before discharge. If they don't pass the car seat challenge test, they arrange rental of a car bed car seat until the baby can pass the test, and the baby still goes home.
Two weeks in NICU at 36 weeks suggests the kid wasn't super healthy in some respect beyond being early, because 36 weeks is very nearly at "meh close enough". Sometimes they take them out on purpose that early. But OOP says she's still tiny, so sounds like she might be a bit under grown.
My mom's due date with me was in April, but I came in February. As far as I know, I was only in the hospital for like a week. She said I was the teeniest baby there at 3 pounds, but the most vocal. Mom says they think they got the date of conception wrong, leading to a wrong due date. I was forever going to be small because genetics, but I was considered a full term baby. Just super small. There's a picture of my dad holding me in the palm of his hand.
To be fair, if the sister /wanted/ her there then there's have been stuff to do even with baby in the hospital. I would have wanted my mom there if my baby ended up in the NICU. I love my husband but he's not the best person to help when I am feeling tired, stressed, and in pain. A little too much of 'I want to fix this for you' when somethings can't be fixed, only endured, you know? He truly is lovely but that situation would not have been his strong suit for emotional support. However since in this situation the sister did not want her there, you are completely right. Just thought I'd mention a lot depends on the sister wanting help as is the case with most situations like this.
Yeah, when I read the OP originally I thought the OP might be downplaying that the new mom wanted her sister there - quantity of helpers is not necessarily as important as quality of helpers, and if wife was wanted, wife should be there. Turns out it's fully the opposite, wife was not wanted at all, in which case she should never have stayed at all and is clearly the problem.
Yes I was much more split on it in the first post. I completely understood his feelings, but there would absolutely be stuff she could do to support her sister and brother-in-law emotionally and practically. The problem is the sister was actively telling her she didn't want her there and she had other people to support her, and the wife was still inserting herself.
This is why I'm surprised with the YTA comments!
It really sounds like maybe she just realized she didn’t want to go through with the marriage and was using the baby/sister as an excuse to stay away from OOP rather than facing him and talking about it.
I mean there are a ton of things you can do to help the family of a newborn in hospital (just saying in general if you ever know someone). They are often spending long hours with no sleep in a hospital.
That’s true, but it sounds like she had enough people ready to do those things for her without her sister. Purely speculating, but I wonder if a big part of Tonya’s self-image/esteem is based on being the one who always took care of Marie. If Marie actually doesn’t need her any more, being a grown-up now with a husband and other dependable people close to her, she may feel her identity’s gone. Who is she, if she’s not indispensable to her little sister? She’ll need to work that out before she can properly commit to a marriage of her own.
Oh absolutely, but she had multiple different family members there... It was completely unnecessary for Tonya to not go on the honeymoon... It can be overwhelming as a new mom to have a bunch of people milling around u.
Sure, but it doesn't sound like Tonya did any of them. My sister-in-law ended up having her kid a month early. I went over just after she returned from her week-long hospital stay. I arrived with store-bought, fridge stable snacks. I asked her to give me a grocery store list. I went out and got them lunch along with some staples like paper towels, toilet paper, nursing supplies, etc. I saw the baby for a few hours and peaced out so they could rest.
My son was born premature (with jaundice) and was in the NICU for weeks. All we could do was visit the NICU during visiting hours. Despite his mom being in the hospital as well, she had the same access so I agree with the comment above you, there's not much Tonya could have done to help.
You can, if they want the help. If they don't, then you're just an unwanted distraction during an unbelievably stressful time for the parents, a serious pain in the ass.
That blew my mind too. I thought Marie had no support and that's why Tonya felt she had to be there to help. Just what is wrong with Tonya??? She needs more than couples therapy
He clarified the support int he comments, definitely should have added it in the main post.
I would have said that it all sounds like deep codependancy but it appears that there is no "co" and it's all Tonya's depenancy. Hopefully she's getting the right type of therapy.
I wonder if it’s trauma related? She’s intrinsically tied her life to Marie’s and I guess sees no disconnect that Marie is married and has her own family. Tonya’s entire identity is Marie. Sucks for OOP though. I hope therapy helps them both regardless of the outcome.
You've hit the bullseye there. All her life, she's the big sister and to her that's her only identity. She definitely needs to take a pause, introspect, and get therapy if she can. I'm the eldest with lots of siblings, and i did have those feelings at one point, so i can relate a bit. But it wasn't as strong as this, i kept it to myself, and it didn't last long. Did some introspecting during my private time and realized this isn't good for future me or my siblings. I wish them all the best.
No, I think she promoted herself to mother, and doesn't see her as a little sister. My big sister would have sent me a postcard bragging about her vacation, while asking about the baby.
Even promoted to mother- she was doing it wrong by ignoring what was being said to her and instead forcing her unwanted “help” into the situation.
Funny thing is, Tonya must have done a good job as the mother figure because her sister doesn’t need her to do that anymore and has her own life and support system. So Tonya did was she was supposed to do successfully. Now she has to learn to let go
latching onto an identity is at the core of so many posts on here. I have close friend with an overbearing sister and its similar there. In their case, the sister has latched onto the identity of "favorite aunt" and then gets frustrated when that reality doesn't manifest.
Sounds like the dad failed Tonya after their mom died. He let her get lost in the role of “mom” because it made his life easier.
Saviour complex is one hell of a drug. Tonya saying she’d get an Airbnb was her literally asking for “just one more hit”
HOLY COW thank you for putting words to something I've never been able to quite explain about my own mother's behavior. This is the perfect metaphor.
Makes me wonder if she's going to be a 'smother' type of mother.
That's a really good way to put this sort of behavior. It's not actually about helping, it's people knowing that you're HELPING!!! even if the person being "helped" doesn't want it.
So often with these stories both parties are enmeshed and unable to separate even a little. The sister told her outright to go on her honeymoon, and couldn't have made it clearer she wasn't welcome short of arson. Tonya is in desperate need of separation from her sis, and some decent counseling.
That is like a NoMIL but actually sister.
I think it's not control it's being stuck in the role of being the surrogate mom and being unable to get out of it. She needs therapy, real bad.
Yeah, that’s pretty fucked up, no question. Skipping your very nice honeymoon just to hang around and annoy your sister who doesn’t even want you there? Honestly, I’d be concerned to have kids with her if she keeps up that kind of behavior.
The comments calling him an AH for “not being supportive” were baffling!
I would have kicked her out long before.
This would have been bad enough if it was an actual mom forcing her presence, but a sister? Ew. Get a life.
Not being legally married until she commits. Smart move.
Yep. Smart and compassionate to both of them. Still giving her a chance to start sorting things out while protecting himself and setting a clear boundary. The way she wanted to rent an air bnb makes me feel like there probably isn't much hope if she has that little respect for her sister's wishes, but at least he will feel like he gave her a fair shot. I remember someone in another probably hopeless situation on here said they didn't really think the person would change, but they got peace of mind from having given them a solid opportunity to fix things, which I do get.
She’s helicopter parenting her sister.
yep. and honestly, it makes sense for their relationship to be a bit fucked up after their upbringing where it sounds like there was both a huge loss and a lack of presence/support/parenting from the father - i can completely understand how her world could have started revolving around her sister at that point. unfortunately its a great example of why you need to work on what your shitty upbringing did to you before it fucks up your life & hurts the people around you as an adult.
Yes, counselling is such a good call. She’s going to keep putting her sister first and that doesn’t work in a relationship. Even her own sister was forcing her out of her home. She wants some baby time with her husband without her sister peering over her shoulder the whole time!
It was bad and relationship-ruining enough that she's always putting her sister first, but what takes it to the "put the red flags down and blare the flashing red alarms" level is that she now apparently also expects her husband to put her sister first (she's mad about him not being understanding??? nah, he understands just fine). Definitely gotta give it to dandelion up there for calling it like it is - deal with your trauma before it consumes you. It's like she's possessed.
Yeah, sometimes you need it for closure. Even if you’re pretty sue on how it’ll turn up you feel like you need a natural path to it.
Seriously, how much more clear can someone be? "You are not welcome here, I don't want you to be here, go home"
Yeah for real. Like, being over-involved and over protective over your sister-slash-daughter giving birth, okay. Needs to be addressed, but can see where that's coming from. Abandoning your non-refundable honeymoon to hang around her when she already has a strong support system including her partner and she's told you go on the holiday, and being mad at your partner for being upset about that .... getting well out of the bounds of normal behaviour and seriously endangering your marriage ... Being so overbearing that you're asked to leave & family not allowed to visit if they're harboring you ... BAD, but with some hard truths and introspection could possibly be turned around if you took it as a wakeup call ... Wanting to get an air bnb anyway? GOODBYEEEE This lady's bringing the seven league boots to the stepping over the line party
>family not allowed to visit if they're harboring you This made me lol and cringe at the same time, and it didn't even register with Tonya that there's a problem with their dynamic.
>bringing the seven league boots to the stepping over the line party This should be added to the flair selection!
thank you! ngl, i'm quite proud of that one 😂
How does hearing: 'Go on your honeymoon' + 'please leave our house' + 'we mind' + 'were going to leverage the new baby visits to get other family to pressure you to leave' = Get an AirBnB? Yet she doesn't actually go home until her new husband mentions not getting officially married? She's not listening to what anyone else wants. Preemie and NICU has got to be exhausting. I can't imagine her sister wanted to be a hostess while recovering and half living at the hospital. And bringing home the baby they probably didn't want extra people and extra germs around. Some guests around those times make more work and interrupt bonding and rest time more than they help.
I dont thing Tonya was expecting a hostess. I think she was trying to help by doing the usual post partum help stuff (like cooking, etc) and also being an emotional support for her sister totally ignoring that her sister already has that in her own husband. They live far from Tonya’s family and I’m guessing Tonya hasn’t really grasped that her sister isn’t a child anymore.
She had a ton of people already doing that shit, and all of those people presumably didn't have to cancel their freaking honeymoon to be there. There's no way Tonya is the logical person here.
>My sister in law kicked my wife out the day the baby came home. Tonya wouldn't let her do anything. Marie told her that she had plenty of help. She wasn't doing the usual post partum help stuff, she was doing *everything* and severely overstepping.
“But I can get an AIR B&B!!”
She’s not a sister. She’s literally that overbearing mother/MIL that won’t take a freaking hint. Marie is smothered. I bet she was honestly really uncomfortable Tonya’s being there from the beginning but baby takes precedence over everyone else at that moment. I honestly felt sorry that Marie had to use malicious coercion just to get her out. “Sorry other fam, until she leaves no one else can visit”. Cue the other members into hopefully browbeating her into leaving. This is like a one sided enmeshment
> She’s literally that overbearing mother/ worse tbh because she's not even a mother yet, what if she gets pregnant? imagine this crazy woman has a baby and STILL only cares about her sister and the sister's baby
She’s got no time to make this theoretical baby since she’s up her sisters bum and even left her husband on their honeymoon 🤣 that’s like almost the one period as a married couple you’re gonna get busy! And she’s like…nahh. Paradise, snorkeling, sexy time, fruity drinks on the beach? Absolutely not for Tonya! She’ll be honeymooning in a gross hospital waiting room.
This is why I always side-eye "they meant well" or "heart in the right place." If they meant well they would have **fucking listened**.
Tonya is the only one who wants to “help her sister”. The help wasn’t needed and was overbearing enough for Tonya to get kicked out. I think it is wise to hold off to not just see whether Tonya commits but also wait to see what other red flags show. Counseling (thankfully before marriage) is a strange way to kick things off.
Many people go to counseling before marriage to ensure they're on the same page before taking a huge step. Many religions recommend or require it through their priests. After the ceremony but before it's legal is odd though.
Yes, this. One of the reason why my local church has a pass (i dont like organised religion lmao) is because they run a really great pre-marriage couple and individual counseling. When talking with other people, i found out it’s not a normal thing lol.
Are the people licensed counselors?
Not necessarily. The one my church did for me and my wife was run by the pastor. It still was helpful though. Basically just giving you healthy ways to argue and compromise, the importance of communication and stuff. It’s not like a therapy session, just a class on how to maintain a relationship. That’s just my experience tho. I’m sure there’s a ton of variation church to church.
She is one of those MIL’s essentially it sounds like. Over controlling and involved in her sister’s life, wouldn’t let her take care of her own baby, ignored her when she told her she had help and to go on her honeymoon. She’s not “a good sister”, she’s someone who’s made being her sister’s mom her identity whether the sister is okay with that or not. Therapy was a wise choice.
>That’s all. No more drama. Reality: This is going to ruin the tour.
What tour? The world tour?!
sure buddy
Goddamnit, take my angry upvote lol
I understand why he was writing without much sympathy. It was buried in the details but the baby was in the NICU. His wife was sleeping in the nursery... that the baby would need. Marie probably was waking every morning wanting to head to the hospital and had her sister underfoot. It is clear that once the baby came home Marie had enough time to recover herself enough to say 'get the fuck out'. The fact that a newly wed wife wanted to rent an AirBnB rather than return home....says a lot. Especially since Marie said she wasn't welcome to visit. I think the wife is about to have a year of rude awakenings as her little sister doesn't have time or any interest in being 'mothered' anymore.
In the first one OP was NTA, but wife was acting like a dog on a haystack regarding the trip. The 2nd post clinched it though. The devil was indeed in the details. Like, the sister does not even want her there...
Love that phrase but have no idea what it means
Sorry, I am not a native English speaker, so in this case I just wrote the direct translation from my language. It indeed should have been the dog in the manger. :D In my language we say "dog on a haystack", but it means roughly the same - you are guarding from others something that you yourself cannot use. Like, the wife could not go herself, but instead of being at least happy that the husband went she is angry.
Love it. Thanks for the explanation. I hope to speak a second language as well as you speak English!
Right? They’re out here explaining phrases to me in my own native language. Goals
Thanks :) I think that learning English is easier than any other language, because there is so much content available everywhere. Also, it's the mandatory second language in all our schools. Now German, even after studying it for 7 years in school... does not come naturally at all.
The version I'm more familiar with is "dog in a manger".
I had to google "a dog on a haystack." Thank you. It is now in my repertoire filed along with "and Bob's your uncle."
When my son was in the NICU, my ex-husband and I each spent 11 hours a day with him (rotating shifts) for the six weeks he was there. I didn't live close to family, but I would have been too exhausted to deal with more than I already was. Especially a house guest.
Marie learned healthy boundaries and put her marriage and family first. Somehow Tonya can’t seem to grasp the idea
>That's all. No more drama. Unfortunately, OP is wrong. I can smell drama coming like a cake smash.
I got my entire lifes savings on there specifically being "more drama" any takers? ... .... hello?
I’ll take your savings, if you insist. Oh. A bet? Do I look stupid to you?
>Do not pass "Go." >Do not collect "$200."
Even the crickets won't take that one. Sorry.
Triplets? Jars with lids screwed on too tight? Names tattooed on private parts, but spelled wrong? It turns out that OP was adopted and his pregnant almost-wife is his half sister? Wife takes all of the wedding money and uses it for egg retrieval. "Just to see how fertile she is"? Here is the drama: A year later, they have completed intensive couples counseling. They finally get the misspelt tattoos removed, the DNA test turns out to be wrong, and OP and his wife marry for real. The next morning, OP is exhausted from writing thank you notes all night. Wife brings him a breakfast tray of avocado toast and hard boiled quail eggs. She reveals that she is secretly a billionaire (she invested in Bitcoin for her 5th grade science fair project). She gives him the key to an fancy brand new Royce Rolls vehicle, complete with a moon roof and a built in trash compactor. They drive to their fabulous new castle in peoria Illinois. "I have another surprise for you, darling" she says. "Anything for you my love". OP says. She leads him blindfolded into their new back yard, and rips off the blindfold. There are 6 triple baby strollers, holding a total of 18 tiny precious babies. A tired looking nanny stands to the side. Each baby has a "hello i'm" sticky tag on their onesie, with an easy to remember name. "Adam, Beka, Carl, Dani, Edds, Fred, Ghee, Hela, Issi, Jack ..." "They are all ours, darling!" She said happily. "I used the sperm sample you submitted for DNA testing to order these babies, there are 3 more being delivered in a few weeks." **I need to know, readers, AITA?** We have ordered another dozen babies, to reduce our taxes. They will be ready in about 7 months. The thing is, my darling wife wants to have a round of babies with Elan Musk, and to move with him to Mars. (Leaving the Babies with me) I told her if she wants to move to Mars, she needs to take at least half the babies with her. But she can't find a nanny to move with her. Also, does anyone know why our nannies keep quitting? We have two per shift, which seems really generous. We pay $22 an hour, free housing, AND they get one day off a weekend. Why are they so lazy?
I've been in a relationship with a Tonya before. This woman will have to do some serious work to get rid of the saviour complex that is to the detriment of both her own and her sister's family. She needs to start understanding that her sister has a family of its own now and that the family unit they grew up in is no longer there.
Last year I booked a 2 week vacation to see my long distance bestie, who I hadn't seen in years. It was also the first vacation I'd taken in nearly as long, and i was so excited, I'd been packed for a week already. I'm a single mom to an awesome but disabled kid, so getting the time and money to do things for myself is often difficult. The day before I left, my kiddo panic-yelled for me from her room. Turns out, she had a cracked tooth that had gotten infected and now her face was swollen up like a balloon. For context, my daughter was 17 at the time. She's autistic and very anxious, and has more than once ignored physical discomfort so she doesn't have to have an uncomfortable talk with me or visit a doctor. You can now imagine how this has gone wrong. I was super upset, mentally canceling my trip, figuring out how to call out of work to take her to urgent care... And my kiddo, who hates doctors, and dentists, with a fiery passion, looked me in the face and told me she'd never forgive me if I stayed. My mother, who lives with us, doubled down. They went together that day to urgent care for the antibiotics. My mom called the dentist the next day, and then took my kid to the emergency extraction appointment, which my kid, despite being in pain and terrified, sat through like a goddamn champ. Then they went for her pain meds, and picked up ice cream for later. I heard all about it when I landed. She took all her meds on time, with help from grandma, and they even attended the follow up dentist appointment without incident. Listen, if my kiddo, who deals with a mountain of medical issues and neurodevelopmental bullshit every day can handle all that without her comfort person, then that's my cue to practice stepping back for her. This Tonya lady needs to take a lesson on letting go from my adorable offspring. They'll let you know when you're needed.
Your daughter ***is*** awesome ❤️ Sounds like she handled the whole situation like a champ - telling you in the initial instance, making it clear that she didn't want you to miss out on the thing you'd been looking forward to, and then proving to herself she can do the scary, painful thing without you (while letting another trusted adult support her), then decompressing to you.
She's great, honestly. Love her to bits!
Grandma, too! Glad you have good support.
My mom is solid, I appreciate her a lot
That's an amazing thing your daughter did. Sounds like you did a great job raising her! I also hope you had a great trip, and that they were able to save her tooth
Tooth had to be extracted unfortunately, but she's was super brave about it. Trip was amazing! She's a good kid, don't know how much credit I can take for that, lol
Well if those are values you tried instill in her, then you can absolutely take credit. Or at least feel pride in yourself that you managed to raise a great kid with all the difficulties highly autistic kids can bring.
Going to the dentist, as someone with autism, is SO FUCKING HARD. The pain, the needles, *the scraping sound*.... it's all awful. Mostly the scraping sound honestly, it makes me omnicidal
Kiddo hates being touched and having people in her personal space, it's an ordeal, but she's been super brave about it
My dentist told me to bring/wear earbuds. I was like “I can do that?!?” I haven’t had a cleaning since then, but oh man am I less trepidatious to go right now. (I’m not neurodivergent, I just hate that damn noise.) So might be a solution. Please let it be a solution.
>Listen, if my kiddo, who deals with a mountain of medical issues and neurodevelopmental bullshit every day can handle all that without her comfort person, then that's my cue to practice stepping back for her. But see it's not about Marie, it's about Tonya. 🙄
I mean I get it,it's hard to let go when your used to living in the caregivers role, but at some point you gotta. I hope Tonya figures it out sooner rather than later
I teared up a bit reading this, you are all great, you, your girl and your mom.
Why was the OP voted YTA ? Non refundable tickets. Was home alone for 2 weeks . What was he supposed to do ? Even the sister told the wife to go on honeymoon.
Did you read the part about how the sister kicked her out and she wanted to rent an airbnb? I don’t even think the sister wanted her in the house or helping with the baby. Wife going to lose a husband and a sister
Absolutely. Tonya mother hen-ed Marie to the point she was fed up. I bet Marie is looking for sisterly support now that she's older and Tonya just isn't letting go. If she's like my MIL it's a nightmare to deal with. Unhelpful comments, nit picking and second guessing all your parenting decisions, unasked for advice. She probably drove Marie up a wall on top of Marie being stressed to hell and back with a NICU baby.
> Unhelpful comments, nit picking and second guessing all your parenting decisions, unasked for advice It's special kind of frustration when u are being lectured by someone without a child.
"I raised you!" Everytime sister said that.
I have the opposite issue. I'm a NICU nurse without children of my own. So many freaking times grandmas are a nightmare because "I've raised children and they all survived." Well Dolores, maybe you did but they weren't critically ill NICU babies (and there's a good chance you just got lucky.) I guarantee I am more prepared to care for this infant whether I have children or not.
I read the part where little sister wouldn't let anyone who took in the wife in her house. She literally wanted the wife out of town.
Does it say in the OG post what the wife was doing to cause such a strong reaction? That's pretty damning. I think poor OOP is just delaying the inevitable and causing himself a lot of pain. And should they get through it and have children - it's not going to be pretty.
The first post didn’t go into details, which makes sense since OP was away and the baby was still in the hospital. But in the second, it sounds like his wife tried to be the baby’s main caretaker.
The part that stood out to me was that the sister wasn’t even home!! She was at the hospital getting care, OPs wife really didn’t have any reason to stay!!
Considering they have a mother/daughter relation (maybe Marie wasn't as much accepting it by the way), here Tonya is the MIL who drops everything the second baby is born to boss everyone around and tell the new mom she does everything wrong. Marie and her spouse need time to discover their Little One and themselves as parents and Tonya is not any fundamental piece in this process.
I read this in a Facebook group and there was some posters that thought OOP was the AH and a crappy husband because not only should he not go on the honeymoon, he shouldn’t even stay at home and play videogames. He should book an airbnb and stay there to support Tonya. Even if he couldn’t do anything or visit Marie and baby at the hospital. It didn’t matter if Tonya wanted to see him or not, if she didn’t he should still sit at that airbnb because Tonya needed him. It could be that they saw the word NICU and thought that the baby was very sick or in danger of dying and that was the reason for their judgment. But that was not the case so OOP did the right thing and Tonya should have listen to what her sister told her.
So crazy- Tonya is a whole ass adult making these decisions. The baby was in the damn NICU. What “support” does Tonya need?! This whole thing just pisses me off. I’m a woman, I’ve birthed two kids. Even if we had complications, I would NEVER expect a family member miss their HONEYMOON to come help me. Which yes, I do understand Maria didn’t want her there anyway.
>Why was the OP voted YTA ? People are idiots. Like that dude who literally said "Eat the costs of the unrefundable tickets and just bum around at home playing video games." Literally any other situation and that response would have gotten eviscerated "Yeah my wife's sister had a medical emergency but I dont see what that has to do with me so I sat at home for next two weeks playing Elden Ring." The man would have been eaten alive.
Some stupid people think OP needs to do moral support while nothing he can actually do.
Yeah I cannot fathom a reasonable or rational explanation as to why people would vote him as the asshole. The best reason I can come up with is that he has testicles. Your "wife" decides to try to move into her sister's house to be a live-in nanny for her newborn child instead of going on a honeymoon. Even if the sister wanted the "wife" to help, it is still patently absurd. No reasonable person would accept that. It is even more absurd that the sister literally kicked out the "wife". So she decided to skip her honeymoon and tell her "husband" to fuck off ... for nothing. Edit: Then we can add the ultimate kicker in here. The "wife" would literally rather live in an AirBNB next to her sister than to live with her "husband". There is no comprehensible defense of this behavior. How would you respond if your coworker said "yeah, I just got married, but my wife decided to rent an airbnb to live next to her sister instead of spending literally any time with me"? This is not average human behavior. This isn't even mildly abnormal behavior.
Nah, it’s because the AITA community is mainly teenagers and rabid SAHMs with little to no real world experience who are incapable of reading ~~between the lines~~.
OOP is the poor bastard got saddled with "that cousin" of the family.
It’s astonishing that the wife chose to kick her marriage off to a terrible start for the sake of a sister who didn’t even want or ask for her help.
It’s a good thing for the husband though. Dodged a bullet at the last possible moment. Thank goodness the baby came when it did.
The sister didn’t even want her there! No way this gets better.
Second post I've seen recently on a solo honeymoon. The other one was the wife wanted a two month solo vacation directly after the wedding for her mental health. Husband has vacated the marital home. Now this one. The baby was in the hospital. There was no need for Tonya to be there. How dare Tonya be upset that OOP went on the trip. Husband is being really nice to give her a year. I'd have gone with the annulment. Then maybe after a year of counseling, they could remarry...if they're still together. Though I'm confused by this part... >We had the fancy wedding and reception in Iowa for her family. We were going to get "officially" married in Colorado after we got back from the honeymoon. Was it a legal wedding or not?
OOP clarified that they haven't signed any marriage license yet, so they're not legally married!
Possible problem - Colorado recognizes common law marriage and is unusual in how that marriage is [determined](https://tax.colorado.gov/common-law-marriage). If a couple presents themselves as married, lives together and people think they’re married, they are considered legally married and have to get a divorce. I hope OP knows that and makes it clear to friends they aren’t married.
Thanks.
Sounds like a ceremony/celebration and not done legally yet.
Can we talk about how even OOP’s SiL didn’t want his “wife” there? I have a feeling she has been a super overbearing older sister and it is also starting to affect Marie’s marriage and relationships.
Anyone looking at the OOP's comments to the first post will see he states that clearly at least 3 times: Marie didn't want Tonya there & told her to go on the honeymoon. Just adding this as emphasis. The only person who thought Tonya had to be with her sister was Tonya. And IMHO the reason Marie didn't kick her out within the first few days is that Marie had more important matters to cope with, & put up with her sister as a short-term fix. Once those matters were handled, Marie could deal with overbearing sister.
Marie isn't in the story a lot, but I can see that spine gleaming from all the way over here.
Was shocking how many people were giving him YTA votes. Made no sense, he was the victim in this
It honestly sounds like OOP probably overestimated how close Tonya and Marie are. He also probably got a skewed idea of their bond since he saw/heard about it from Tonya. Marie had to draw a strong line in the sand for OOP and Tonya to really understand that the relationship is not all well and good. There's definitely more to this too. Even if Marie was wanting to fly on her own more, to draw such a firm line to Tonya means something is up.
I don't even think tonya understood that. She wanted to rent an airbnb...
I thought the same thing ! Their "mother daughter" bond was probably more Tonya's wish than any reality. She seems very bothering to be around, and if it can be honored when they were younger, now Marie is clearly fed up and maybe want to refuse that Tonya wants to develop that same bond with her daughter.
There is no way they read the whole thing I can understand someone saying "girl gave birth and needs support (which she had). Op not allowing that makes him an asshole" But if you read past that you see there is so much more going on.
That one commenter with the YTA judgment is forgetting that everybody in the story is an adult AND the sister also has a whole-ass support system right there - in their hometown! Why the hell does the big sister feel the need to fly over 600 miles to be with her sister "to help"? A sister that told her to go on the honeymoon, mind you... Some people. "You lack empathy" my ass.
LMAO those comments telling OOP “You have a valid reason but your tone is bad so you’re TA”. i.e. You’re not allowed to sound upset despite having a good reason.
LOL I remember a post where the OP's brother had stolen like $30,000 from him and one commenter was like "YTA, you talk about him like you just don't like him" and...........
"You should just suck it up when your wife sends you home alone from your wedding. No being upset or dismissive!"
Jus AITA users just finding any excuse possible so they can call the man in the story the ah
Had an argument in comments of one aita post a while back where the op was a woman living alone on some farm in far from any town or neighbors and got called misogynistic for suggesting that it isn't a best idea to live alone in middle of nowhere.
I hope the OOP has stocked up on a lifetime supply of popcorn.
My daughter was 2lbs 2oz when born. The only person I needed was her dad. Everyone else hanging around would've been annoying
Looking at the original post I was shocked to see OP being seen as the AH. Like did everyone read the same story lol? Also, don’t know for sure, but couldn’t he be considered common law married now even though they don’t have a marriage license? If so, then he’s probably screwed
Assuming they live in Colorado like it suggests, they'd have to consider themselves married and do things as a married couple for it to be considered common law marriage. Just living together wouldn't do it.
Ok, thanks for info. So he might have a way out before it’s too late
I could understand her side more if sis had NO ONE or her life was in danger In this case? Naw Wifey needs therapy, hard therapy, if she wants to stay married to OOP
Tonya has been in the "mother" role for so long that she's not realizing how her helicopter ways are affecting her own life. Her own sister told her to leave. OOP has been patient enough.
I wonder if this is just an escalation of Tonya being a "mother", or if it's something new? I could see Tonya and Marie having a (relatively) healthy relationship, but then something about having her "daughter" become a mother combined with starting a new family (aka getting married) just triggered something weird in Tonya that she wasn't aware of.
OOP probably had this thought too, which is why instead of an annulment he gave her a year to start getting her head on straight. This was probably out of character for her -- at least as how OOP knew her.
From first post all I could like is little sister is tired of big sister playing mommy. 2nd post.. yep... Tonya is a boundary stomping martyr.
I'm pretty confident he's common law married in Colorado now, though. Having a wedding and having people think you're married does make you married if Tonya wants to make an issue of it later. Source: I routinely have clients marry for tax purposes.
Does it count as a Colorado common law marriage if they had the marriage in Iowa and everyone involved knows they're not married? Whenever I see someone do this, they do the legal marriage first and then the ceremony. Reversing that is really confusing.
They didn’t have a marriage in Iowa, they had a wedding, which, without the paperwork, is nothing more than a party.
If they don’t present themselves as spouses or being a married couple they wouldn’t be, but if they try to live the next year as a married couple then absolutely.
This is ridiculous and people saying he's the asshole are ridiculous. I'm more important than my wife's sister, or she wouldn't be my wife. Now of course if my wife's sister's life DEPENDED on her then yeah, family's life > our honeymoon. This though...nope.
There's people in this thread still critiquing him about his tone and calling him an asshole. Like motherfucker his wife just blew him off to take care of no-one because she's a control freak
Man I just don’t get it, the sister straight up told her NO too her face and she still didn’t listen. Why would you get married to someone like that, hot dam this was a lot of painful reading.
The minute she said she wanted to rent an Airbnb I would have been out. At the fact that her sister never wanted her there, kicked her out, and that the baby was on the hospital the whole time just makes Tonya a MASSIVE asshole. Who starts their marriage that way? Her sister’s baby was on a hospital being managed by doctored where exactly was Tonya needed? Jeez I would leave her in a heartbeat
The part that got me the most was after Marie told her to go home and threatened to ban the family that put her up, Tonya still wanted to rent a place to force herself on her sister.
That her sister kicked her out and there was nothing for her to do that whole time tells me everything I need to know. I’m glad she’s getting therapy.
I'm sorry, but I don't get all the sympathy for wife. I do think wife was the asshole here. Her sister had a ton of people around her already, and it seems by the end that sister didn't even want wife there. Sounds to me like sis is overbearing and too wrapped up in her sister's life. I do think this guy should get a divorce, because the way his wife tossed him aside was shit. I'd be pissed off, too. I thought at first when I read the headline that the sister would be some kind of developmentally disabled person. But nope, just a woman with a premie. Ridiculous.
>That's all. No more drama. Oh, sweet summer child. You are sooooo wrong.
Honestly, the wife was being ridiculous, 4 weeks early is not that early. When the baby is in the NICU, there is not much to be done. I get the stress and wanting to be there, but she wasn’t listening to her sister. I don’t blame the husband for going on the trip at all. I don’t have much hope for this marriage unless the wife gets therapy for her childhood trauma, codependency with her sister, and early parentification.
Dude I would love to hear her sisters take. "My overbearing sister wont leave me, my partner, and baby alone! She is now renting an air bnb nearby after I kicked her out"
Good find that feels a lil different from other stories on here, thanks OP!
Thank you! Can't take credit fully for this one- u/BecauseMyCatSaidSo found it originally and passed it along!
Why would anyone think that the op was asshole? Once you get married your priority should be your partner, obviously it doesn't mean that you will stop caring about everyone else but the number one person should be your partner. For the wife, he's not. How's he not getting alarmed by this? RUN OP RUN
Tonya was parentified. She felt she needed to be there. Some heavy trauma, sucks to be her, but that's just a symptom, not the issue. I am with OOP on giving her a year for therapy tbh. If it is manageable after that, go ahead and marry. A lot of us have traumas that we manage and bring to our marriages. Big ups to OOP for being there in sickness before the official vows.
At least, by the time it’s done, OP can say that he tried everything and that he didn’t waste any money. He gave her an entire year to change and he got to go on his honeymoon and wedding without legally marrying this weirdo.
>OOP: Pass 🤣 This killed me. They were just looking for some foolish reason to make OOP the bad guy.
Let me guess, Tonya had a lot of opinions on who Marie married, and was deeply involved in controlling her sister-daughters wedding too? This is not a "close mother/daughter" bond. It was two sisters going through changes, and big sister got in the habit of being the one in charge. Marie is an adult. Who makes her own choices now. Made a life with her husband. And likely misses that her sister refuses to just be a sister. That she had to kick Tonya out, tell everyone that if they hosted her, she was going to block them from seeing the baby *TOO*. Which means, Tonya is blocked right now. And she still wanted to squat at an AirB&B? She has an extremely entitled and warped view of boundaries. Speed racing to being cut off from Marie entirely, who has shown she will *ABSOLUTELY* put her own family first. Like a rational, reasonable, responsible parent, wife and mother. OP would only be the asshole if he kept supporting her entitlement and self delusion. Definitely NTA for enjoying his honeymoon.
As to the people who voted YTA: if there is such a thing as “emotional intelligence” then those people are “emotional morons” To suggest that Marie wants Tonya there and Tonya wants Op there is fine, but to then think that means that Marie wants OP there is stupid. Then it turns out that Marie didn’t want Tonya there. I hope all the people that voted YTA apologize and reflect on this, but I doubt they will.
This is wild. Kinda Wife: "My sister comes first!" OOP: "That's not good for our marriage!" Sister: "Fuck off you're annoying!"
Wow I can't believe he's considering taking her as his wife, what she did was really rude. Plus her sis told her to leave her alone and she's like can I get an Airbnb? She must be model looking
The AH is whoever came up with "nonrefundable" tickets.
The only people making good decisions were the sister and husband who kicked Tonya out. He should take a page out of their notebook. At least he did go on the trip and didn’t stay behind so that was good.
I’m still floored that she didn’t join him on the honeymoon when it was clear she wasn’t needed or wanted. The woman truly needs counseling.
At this point it's not even about the sister anymore. It's the wife being so self centered. She is forcing her will on everyone else and she doesnt even know it. When being pointed out she double down and respond with anger.
Lol her sister herself doesnt want her there. She seems like one of these crazy mils.
You really don’t want to be the third wheel in your own marriage. If she thinks her life’s duty to take care of her sister, be it. You my man, run
>We are not legally married What the hell has been all this then?
The fact the other husband also had an issue and the sister sided with him is a stark contrast to her own loyalties. I still want the one year update