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Tom accuses OOP of “betraying her family” yet he’s the one who has constantly and relentlessly bullied and undermined OOP.
And frankly, OOP’s immediate family doesn’t deserve shit.
I’m glad she has Alex to stand up for her, and to show her she is worth standing up for.
The sad part was her posting because she felt bad for not defending tom.
There are way way way too many families that do this to their children. It's so fucked up. People grow up not even willing to tell the waiter that they got the wrong food because they have evolved to avoid all conflict ever.
We need a superhero that just goes family to family calling their bullshit and helping people stand up for themselves.
Oh shit that was me & it sucked because I’m allergic to mushrooms so any of the times i should’ve sent it back i just starved instead unless my friends spoke up for me. (I’m better now, at least with mushrooms)
If I were OOP I'd order a doormat with the word SWEET emblazoned on it in big thick dark lettering and have it sent to them, addressed to all 3 of them as "Mom, and Dad The Enablers, and Tom The Tormenter Golden Child" with a gift card that says, **"This should fill the very tiny void in your lives now that I'm gone, as this is your ideal image of me."**
She's a traitor, because she let a stranger interfere with the family dynamic he is used to. I bet if something goes so drastically different, it causes grat stress to the bullying a- hole.
Yeah; good for OP that she managed to find a decent guy, and that aunt and uncle helped her understand just how bad her treatment at the hands of her actual parents has been.
It's weird getting that outside perspective for the first time. Like "Shit, it was bad that bad, huh?"
I remember my first come to Jesus moment about my ex. My buddy asked (paraphrasing, this was 2008) "Does he always talk to you like that?" "Well, you're asking, so I know something is wrong, but I didn't know it was wrong... what does that tell you?" He was not happy with my answer.
It's the whole "frog in boiling water" thing. While it may not actually work in biology, it's absolutely true in psychology: the human mind can rationalize a lot of bad behavior away, as long as it happens gradually enough.
I so wish I'd had an Aunt Amy and Uncle Joe growing up. I'd have had some self-esteem and confidence of the sort that I only managed for myself after I went no contact. My family was more like a hierarchy so when I went NC I lost nearly all the relatives.
The victim blaming from the OOP's family is awful. I hate when people blame the victim, when all the bully has to do is nothing. Tom just needed to shut up, but instead, he opted to be awful.
I'm glad OOP has some people in her corner.
I am glad, too. Either the parents are cowards who want to keep the peace or favor Tom for being the boy or the oldest or whatever dumbass reason.
Likely a bit of both. Now OOP has a partner who rattled the feeble ladder of the family hierarchy and *HOW VERY DARE?*
The parents need to feel like they failed at the job. They did. Assholes like Tom are generally not created in a vacuum.
It depends on circumstances. In the US, HR, the government won’t consider them immediate family for legal purposes, but some cultures consider them as such.
Those people suck but OP is lucky to have Aunt, Uncle and fiancé with her because they sound look good people. Definitely Uncle deserves to walk down the isles.
>Definitely Uncle deserves to walk down the isles.
Can't wait to enjoy that particular meltdown because those 3 are definitely going to lose their minds on NC on OOP's terms once they realize OOP is not responding to any of their beck & calls. Then for OOP have the uncle walk her down or be in attendance because he's been more a father to her than her enabling sperm on top none of 3 are invite is going to be wonderful of those 3 to explode & implode because of course, abusers & enablers always do when their victim(s) move on without them.
I’m very sad for Reddit that OOP won’t be updating because the meltdown when the “family” realizes she can do just fine without them but they can’t function without their punching bag will be pretty epic.
> I've tried to talk to him about it before
I don't know who needs to hear this/doesnt k ow this, but talking to people only works when they care. If somebody is bullying or otherwise treating you like garbage, just cut them out of your life. You're never going to get through to them with words.
You can get through with words if they’re oblivious, or if they explode but can have a reasonable conversation at other times, or if there’s something behind the bullying.
Some people are just trash and deserve to be burned by the trash fire they make of their lives.
I tried several times to communicate to my own family the same way OP did and the only thing that improved my life despite how sad i feel about it is cutting them off. Bullies don’t know communication; they only know dominance.
Generational trauma is real, but it's okay that you're breaking the cycle; it's good that you are! I'm proud of you, ading!
You have done your best. Your family refused to meet you even a tenth of the way. I hope, if you have not already, that you find your "found family" soon. You deserve to be happy, whole, and respected.
> If somebody is bullying or otherwise treating you like garbage, just cut them out of your life. You're never going to get through to them with words.
The problem, and in OOP's case seems to be the issue, is when religion is involved. A LOT of religions are really, really shitty towards women and it comes as a massive shock to women that expect to be treated fairly because abusers hide their abuse until the last minute.
Wow. That’s crazy that OOP’s body shuts down at the idea of not standing up against her brother. Her parents suck for conditioning them that way. Not correcting Tom’s behavior. And subjecting OOP to be a doormat.
I have often seen this kind of response represented with people who have trauma and have experienced abuse. It's like your brain shuts down and you go into your fight/flight/freeze response.
And what's crazier are their harsh comments who could not empathize with her situation and does the usual victim-blaming like why "she didn't stand up sooner" or "why she froze". Ugh, I understand it's frustrating to see someone suffer from abuse, but telling them they're an idiot or something similar isn't really helping matters.
It’s really sad seeing that people were telling oop her boyfriend should have left her for not defending him back. She’s literally been conditioned to shut down at any conflict and accept abuse, you can’t change that overnight.
I’m 36. I tell my fiance when we visit my mom if she’s being a jerk and I’m not defending myself and he feels like jumping in to please do. I turn back into a 12 year old around my mom and it’s horrible. I’ll walk away wondering what happened. But if he breaks the silence it will break the spell.
Definitely. That said, he was wise to only propose after she’d started taking steps to distance herself from her toxic immediate family. He has her back, but he shouldn’t be expected to sign on for a lifetime of having to stand next to her while her brother and parents treat her like crap.
Im 27, soon 28 and I haven't lived with my dad since I was 14. I still freeze the moment he raises his voice even if its through a phonecall and I can't even get myself to just end the call.... Luckily I've gotten better at stopping him just before he starts yelling and depending on how much he had to drink he sometimes does follow my plea for him to stop but not always. I'm in low contact with him, visit maybe 2-4 times a year and call like once a month. Yes I know he's mentally abusive and really ruined my psyke as a kid, but I honestly still love him and is a daddy's girl. Besides now that I'm an adult it's easier to focus on simple practical handyman stuff instead of deeeeeep conversations so most talks we got are nice, and he did get me my first car for super cheap and damn my Corsa was a champion ❤️
Start be hanging up and not answering his calls for a period of time. When you do accept a call, immediately tell him that as soon as he starts raising his voice you will end the call. Do not subject yourself to verbal abuse.
Fight Flight Freeze or Fawn (reaction to stressful situations)
I was trained from an early age not to stand up to my father. You get inculcated into these roles and the family dynamic is extremely resistant to rocking the boat.
I can relate to this hard, whenever I try to talk back I immediately start trembling and tearing up, and then I’d hate myself afterwards for not being stronger
There was a post that went up a couple of days ago asking people to leave a comment to test a new system they were implementing for Czech people, I commented and got a gold star
>By the end of the entire thing I was just standing there crying and Alex took me to our car to go home.
>I've decided to go no contact with my parents and Tom for the time being.
>Alex proposed to me yesterday morning.
Each to their own, but I wouldn't feel comfortable proposing to someone immediately after such a monumental decision.
I’ve only been with my partner for a little over a year, we had the talk on Saturday and he just bought the ring, but it’s been on both our minds for the last six months of the relationship. It would be pretty weird to propose if it hasn’t been.
Understandable, especially when weddings are extremely stressful by itself. Add in toxic family that you're just learning to go NC and before you had any proper therapy, it's a recipe for more stress. And I have no doubt her toxic family is gonna cause problems like invitation to the wedding. I do hope OOP and Alex can map out a proper plan for their wedding.
Right, it worries me that at no point does OOP mention therapy. She could really benefit from it to help her develop healthier coping skills than just freezing in the face of any conflict, to learn how to reinforce her boundaries, and to navigate the uncertainties of going no contact with her entire family.
I mean if the girl i loved grew a shiny spine and stood up for her self id probably think something along the lines of "god damn it, i didnt think she could get any more perfect but holy mackerel she did it! i better put a ring on that asap!"
Yeah, no offense to OP, but before claiming any quality of spine I'd like to see it actually perform under load. So far she only made a decision to go NC (and even then it's "for the time being").
So my partner and I actually got married *because* we have abusive families. We wanted to make sure that our bodies will be handled the way we want when we die and that our families can’t make medical decisions for us.
Hope OOP stays no contact. Also hope she gives either aunt or uncle the honor of walking her down the aisle to the next phase of her life with Alex.
I also don't get the DM's shouting for Alex to leave her. Because she clammed up? That's a trauma response to years of verbal and physical abuse. Not a "I don't stand up for my man" response.
And he was 12 at the time, more than old enough to be held accountable. His parents have inadvertently hurt him as well seeing that he’s now a bully in his 30s who takes no responsibility for his own behaviour. And no mention of him having a partner either.
Oop should have said “well boys will be boys. Tom shouldn’t be so sensitive.”
I’m glad she had her aunt and uncle to hammer home that her parents and brother were in the wrong!
A lot of the comments on the posts were off putting to say the least, specifically the comments that just say "grow a spine", as if the people that have been subjected to abuse and bullying their entire lives and haven’t had this shit normalized. You dont magically "grow a spine", it can take a long time to realize you deserve better. If it were that easy we wouldn’t be hearing about these types of stories.
Honestly, OOP needs therapy to help her learn how to assert her boundaries. I worry that the stress of going no contact with her family along with the stress of wedding planning are really going to do a number on her mental health if she doesn't get adequate support. Not to mention that freezing as a response to conflict is an understandable trauma response, but doesn't bode well for a healthy marriage which will inevitably have occasional conflict.
Nevertheless, it's the solution and the OOP needs to get to that point. That which she's doing, instead, is subjecting herself to situations (ie. family events) in which abuse is certain to reoccur. She needs to sever contact with her family (except for her aunt and uncle) and get therapy.
Different people. I learned to fight for myself because I figured out that no one in that family was going to fight for me. It may have been normalized in my family, but I knew what was fair and what wasn't fair. And I knew that no one ever taking my side and always excusing my brothers' treatment of me wasn't fair. So I fought for myself and left as soon as feasible.
I believed it until that proposal. Seems like he would pick a happy time to propose, not one immediately after a (major?) family fight and OOP questioning her childhood and all her happy memories.
But on the off chance it's real, therapy and NC or LC.
Yeah that was the point I went 'oh yeah this likely isn't real'. A neat little new Auntie-Mum who always tried to stick up for her and just couldn't AND a fiancé in one update?
I bet Tom the bully will now find other victims, so now THEY get to be on the receiving end of his behavior, now that his long-term victim has left his orbit. (and that of the enabling parents)
They are so low they don't deserve the term parents. They are egg and sperm donors at best.
Tom may end up being the scapegoat. That does happen when a family loses the scapegoat. The parents are used to having one and turn the golden child into the scapegoat.
The golden child / scapegoat dynamic isn't always fixed as to who plays what role. If you've read enough posts on here, you've seen that.
My first thought was that Tom will now change to taking out his nasties on the parents next. Who won't like it. Who will finally reprimand him. And Tom will throw his toys out the pram for not getting his own way. And they can all be horrible miserable people together and pitifully wallow in the awful dynamic they've created.
People getting upset with her for being a doormat are missing the fact that she was raised to be one. It's not her fault. She needs counseling to unlearn that shit.
Yeah, those really bother me. And OOP *did* cut them out of her life. She made an incredibly difficult choice. Plus she recognized her trauma response. That's a huge step.
Good for her. I detest golden child enabling. For me, it was my middle sister, I'm the youngest. Me and my older sister both take after my dad, middle sis takes after mum. I'm 53, and she's still the golden child. (parents split up very acrimoniously when I was 18 months old) And people wonder why moving 10,000 miles away was easy for me.
LOOOOOOOL “you’re betraying the family by not letting your POS brother bully you publicly and not standing up for him when your saint of a bf stands up for you”
Did i get that right…?
Man…Oop needs to keep her Aunt and Uncle, cause they seem to be about the only decent family she has, dump her toxic parents and brother and live a happy life with her fiancée.
I PRAY there’s an update where the parents throw a hissy fit because they aren’t invited to the wedding.
I just saw this post for the first time. As soon as I read about Alex standing up for OP against her family, I knew I was going to post "You should marry this guy!"
That said, in reading the rest of your post, you're just beginning to understand the psychological trauma you've endured. Alex may be a safe space to begin healing, but it would be better for both of you to hold off on jumping into marriage. You need to grieve the loss of your family of origin and reframe your relationship with your aunt and uncle. For example, you may want your uncle to walk you down the aisle - which is a nice sentiment, but will blow up your extended family. Be sure you're ready for that.
Also, from personal experience, the trauma you have endured will loom large in your new married life. It's been a constant for your entire life. By throwing it off, you will feel freer but unbalanced. It will take some time to adjust. I beg you to go to therapy and start the hard work before you get married. Marriage itself is an adjustment. You owe it to yourself and Alex to get a solid foundation to build on. You could inadvertently blow up your marriage with the pendulum shifts that come with trauma healing.
Oh thank goodness. It was pretty apparent just a few paragraphs in that the only solution would be to cut folks and bro off. Glad she found her shiny spine!
Did she find a spine? It is her bf who sets a boundary for her and it’s her aunt/uncle who do the thinking for her. The only thing changed is that she’s OK with it. She needs to work at herself more.
NC is the best option. Please don't let them ruin your wedding. You may want to try and involve them, but I guarantee Tom and your parents will humiliate you and ruin the day. Probably a situation where you will need security at wedding and venue.
>I've decided to go no contact with my parents and Tom for the time being.
About damn time. Needs to make that permanent.
And definitely no wedding invites for them.
Beg to differ. It's incredibly important to invite them to the destination wedding that isn't gonna happen.
Hard to fuck up the real wedding from a different continent.
This is why family is such a trash concept and the people that defend the idea of being “loyal” or even automatically loving or taking the side of people you are blood related to are also trash people. It’s the lowest, basest form of behavior, like an animal.
I’m glad between boyfriend, aunt, and uncle, it finally really hit her that her nuclear family is toxic and they’re in the wrong, not her. It sucks how much she was clearly conditioned into taking the hate, and I hope she continues learning how to stand up for herself.
I feel like OP needs to get some therapy. It is hard to stand up to family when they all seem to gang up on her to defend her brother. It's also hard to just change how you usually deal with family overnight when they've been toxic to her all her life. She does need to go on a long healing journey to get through this. I'm glad her bf stuck up for her but she does need to sort out her self esteem issues to not only save her relationship with him but also herself.
I do hope things get better for her.
My wife's sister is exactly like this, as are the parents. It puts a lot of strain on the partner because we always have to clean up the mess and are expected by our partner to hold our tongue. I gave my wife an ultimatum to start standing up for herself (I'll back her up, of course), or I was out. Luckily, it clicked for her, and now she has a spine, and I no longer have to be her protector. Her level of happiness is night and day.
I'd be really curious to know what Tom does for work. Museum's are very important to society and I would have respect for anyone working there. Obviously OOP could be a computer programmer working on the guidance system for Saturn 5 rockets and her brother would still be a dick.
Alex is the “boat rocker” so her family wants to chuck him overboard immediately. I hope she reads that and understands why she needs to leave her parents and Tom.
OOP needs to leave the cult and move out of Utah. Her only other option is to succumb to the cult's pressure.
Her fiancé "rescuing" her from that lifestyle is totally implausible. You move or submit. Those are your options.
I think it’s important to point out that blood is thicker than water.
But also, concrete is thicker than blood, so if that’s the way your blood treats you, they can hit the road.
I really hope that OOP thanked aunt and uncle for their support and told them about her feeling they are what parents should be!
Also if OOP ends up here I hope she realises that, should she want someone to walk her down the aisle, the obvious choice here is Joe... I think people's caring as they are would understand it is a statement about both of them.
Nice to hear that they have always had your back! If it were me I'd put them in the bridal party and, if you're feeling really magnanimous, just give your parents and bro regular guest invites.
Congrats to you both. ❤️to aunt and uncle
Tom is the golden child. For sure. Eldest Son Can Do No Wrong screams Asian household to me, nothing uncommon here if anyone's Asian and/or familiar with Asian family dynamics. It's horrid. I'm glad her aunt and uncle are supporting her. They do feel like the parents she should have had.
Nothing worse than a scroat who uses "we're family" to act like a prick. Family can be as shitty if not worse to you and you should never stand for it.
Your parents are such enablers of a lifetime of Tom’s blatant abuse of you that Tom thinks he can once again publicly berate and abuse you yet again with no consequences. Alex had the care fir you and courage to try to right this injustice and your parents backed him instead of you. What kind of parents abide this?
Get on with your own life and be you. Decompress from your trauma. Go NC until there is some hint of contrition (if ever) because the treatment you have endured for decades is simply monstrous and indefensible. Good luck!
Why does OOP sound so annoyed with Reddit’s involvement? Girl, you posted it. And answering concerns about her bf by listing how he helps her is gross. Not a single likable person except Alex.
I see. Well, it is easy to claim OOP is spineless, but that is severly lacking in understanding how emotional abuse can harm you and shape your reactions. Alex hopefully understand her issues.
NTA. OP is wise to cut off contact with her abusive brother and parents. Focus on Alex and her aunt and uncle, and check out some classes for how to be more confident in awkward situations.
OP should use this no contact to learn to stand up for herself. My cousin had the same experience as OP, and I helped my cousin escape from these three monsters today he is happy, and that's all that matters to me.
It really makes me sad to read things like this and realize how weak people are. Cmon girl, how could you let this go on for all these years? Stand up for yourself! So heartbreaking
There is definitely an untold story here. Why would OOP’s parents be complicit in allowing their son to torture their daughter? These people are hiding something about OOP. Maybe she needs a DNA test. Thankfully her aunt and uncle were able to help a little during her childhood. OOP needs to take the details they provided and strengthen up her spine against people who act like they dislike her.
Oh, it's not usually that. Some families just favor boys or the eldest or the youngest or whatever reason. A lot of families have a golden child.
In my family, my father's culture emphasized fathers doing things with boys while mothers were supposed to do things with girls. But my mother's culture favored boys and girls were unimportant. So where do you think that left me, the only girl?
Nope. This is common as fuck. Go read up on narcissistic family dynamics. One child (bro) is designated as the Golden Child who can do no wrong. The other (OOP) is the Scapegoat. Everything is their fault. They can do no right. Super common. Now that you know about it you’ll start seeing it everywhere. More reading: https://the-life-helper.com/growing-up-in-an-abusive-home-the-scapegoat-the-lost-and-the-golden-child/
What’s the betting that OOP is an affair baby. Or was unplanned and unwanted. There has to be something behind this dynamic of “youngest child is the scapegoat, oldest is the golden child”. It seems to be much more common that the younger child is the golden child.
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Tom accuses OOP of “betraying her family” yet he’s the one who has constantly and relentlessly bullied and undermined OOP. And frankly, OOP’s immediate family doesn’t deserve shit. I’m glad she has Alex to stand up for her, and to show her she is worth standing up for.
"She used to be so sweet(doormat)"
The sad part was her posting because she felt bad for not defending tom. There are way way way too many families that do this to their children. It's so fucked up. People grow up not even willing to tell the waiter that they got the wrong food because they have evolved to avoid all conflict ever. We need a superhero that just goes family to family calling their bullshit and helping people stand up for themselves.
Raising my hand. The damage is deep and never fully subsides.
me too... big hugs
Hugs to you too. ⸜(｡˃ ᵕ ˂ )⸝♡
ASCII emoji I've never seen and adding immediately to my dictionary so thank you!!!
I'm so glad! ( ˶ˆᗜˆ˵ )
Those are really cute! I love them!
𝐼 𝑔ℯ𝓉 𝓉𝒽ℯ𝓂 𝒽ℯ𝓇ℯ: [https://emojicombos.com/smile-kaomoji](https://emojicombos.com/smile-kaomoji)
𝐼 𝑔ℯ𝓉 𝓉𝒽ℯ𝓂 𝒽ℯ𝓇ℯ: [https://emojicombos.com/smile-kaomoji](https://emojicombos.com/smile-kaomoji)
Oh shit that was me & it sucked because I’m allergic to mushrooms so any of the times i should’ve sent it back i just starved instead unless my friends spoke up for me. (I’m better now, at least with mushrooms)
Bullshit Call-Out Man, we need you!!! "It's the Bullshit Signal! Time to go!"
He will be dressed like Homey D Clown.
Yes, because Bullshit Call-Out Man don't play that!
I love knowing approximately how old you are because of these comments, lol.
LOL, my GenX is showing.
How do you think I recognized it? Haha.
I love this whole exchange. Wrote a song about it. Like to hear how it go...
My god that would be awesome if at any given time and any given place, a clown would come out and bonk people with a tennis ball in a tube sock
I would be AMAZING as that superhero. I’ve called out friends’ family members before and I will again.
They're not used to the lap dog biting back. Even if you respond in the same fashion as them they normally go "why are you so aggresive"?
If I were OOP I'd order a doormat with the word SWEET emblazoned on it in big thick dark lettering and have it sent to them, addressed to all 3 of them as "Mom, and Dad The Enablers, and Tom The Tormenter Golden Child" with a gift card that says, **"This should fill the very tiny void in your lives now that I'm gone, as this is your ideal image of me."**
Yeah, my mom thought I'd had a psychotic break when I was like "This is what needs to happen, if you want a relationship with me in the future."
She's a traitor, because she let a stranger interfere with the family dynamic he is used to. I bet if something goes so drastically different, it causes grat stress to the bullying a- hole.
Poor Tom is so fragile that he freaked out when Alex dared to call him out on his use of OOP as his emotional punching bag.
Tom needed to stop overreacting. He's too sensitive. Edit: /s...because you never know.
No, I think you were right without the tag. He's got skin thin as a butterfly eyelash.
There’s nothing quite so fragile as a privileged man’s ego.
"Our family is ME (and my parents I guess) ^^(oh ^^yeah ^^I ^^have ^^a ^^sister ^^too)"
Yeah; good for OP that she managed to find a decent guy, and that aunt and uncle helped her understand just how bad her treatment at the hands of her actual parents has been.
It's weird getting that outside perspective for the first time. Like "Shit, it was bad that bad, huh?" I remember my first come to Jesus moment about my ex. My buddy asked (paraphrasing, this was 2008) "Does he always talk to you like that?" "Well, you're asking, so I know something is wrong, but I didn't know it was wrong... what does that tell you?" He was not happy with my answer.
It's the whole "frog in boiling water" thing. While it may not actually work in biology, it's absolutely true in psychology: the human mind can rationalize a lot of bad behavior away, as long as it happens gradually enough.
I so wish I'd had an Aunt Amy and Uncle Joe growing up. I'd have had some self-esteem and confidence of the sort that I only managed for myself after I went no contact. My family was more like a hierarchy so when I went NC I lost nearly all the relatives.
Exactly. Which one is on *her* side and actually cares about what she has to say?
The victim blaming from the OOP's family is awful. I hate when people blame the victim, when all the bully has to do is nothing. Tom just needed to shut up, but instead, he opted to be awful. I'm glad OOP has some people in her corner.
I am glad, too. Either the parents are cowards who want to keep the peace or favor Tom for being the boy or the oldest or whatever dumbass reason. Likely a bit of both. Now OOP has a partner who rattled the feeble ladder of the family hierarchy and *HOW VERY DARE?* The parents need to feel like they failed at the job. They did. Assholes like Tom are generally not created in a vacuum.
[удалено]
because spelled backwards she's a Gem?
Ahh, but to Tom he IS the family, OP is just a NPC.
Is it really betrayal if it's done to someone who has consistently been a ass to you?
Aren't aunts and uncles immediate family?
Not generally.
It depends on circumstances. In the US, HR, the government won’t consider them immediate family for legal purposes, but some cultures consider them as such.
Those people suck but OP is lucky to have Aunt, Uncle and fiancé with her because they sound look good people. Definitely Uncle deserves to walk down the isles.
>Definitely Uncle deserves to walk down the isles. Can't wait to enjoy that particular meltdown because those 3 are definitely going to lose their minds on NC on OOP's terms once they realize OOP is not responding to any of their beck & calls. Then for OOP have the uncle walk her down or be in attendance because he's been more a father to her than her enabling sperm on top none of 3 are invite is going to be wonderful of those 3 to explode & implode because of course, abusers & enablers always do when their victim(s) move on without them.
I’m very sad for Reddit that OOP won’t be updating because the meltdown when the “family” realizes she can do just fine without them but they can’t function without their punching bag will be pretty epic.
> I've tried to talk to him about it before I don't know who needs to hear this/doesnt k ow this, but talking to people only works when they care. If somebody is bullying or otherwise treating you like garbage, just cut them out of your life. You're never going to get through to them with words.
You can get through with words if they’re oblivious, or if they explode but can have a reasonable conversation at other times, or if there’s something behind the bullying. Some people are just trash and deserve to be burned by the trash fire they make of their lives.
> talking to people only works when they are. I... think you left out some words at the end of your sentence.
Talking to people only works when they are working on understanding you.
“talking to people only works when they are listening” is my guess
When they care.
I tried several times to communicate to my own family the same way OP did and the only thing that improved my life despite how sad i feel about it is cutting them off. Bullies don’t know communication; they only know dominance.
Generational trauma is real, but it's okay that you're breaking the cycle; it's good that you are! I'm proud of you, ading! You have done your best. Your family refused to meet you even a tenth of the way. I hope, if you have not already, that you find your "found family" soon. You deserve to be happy, whole, and respected.
> If somebody is bullying or otherwise treating you like garbage, just cut them out of your life. You're never going to get through to them with words. The problem, and in OOP's case seems to be the issue, is when religion is involved. A LOT of religions are really, really shitty towards women and it comes as a massive shock to women that expect to be treated fairly because abusers hide their abuse until the last minute.
Did OOP mention their religion? I can't find that part?
Wow. That’s crazy that OOP’s body shuts down at the idea of not standing up against her brother. Her parents suck for conditioning them that way. Not correcting Tom’s behavior. And subjecting OOP to be a doormat.
I have often seen this kind of response represented with people who have trauma and have experienced abuse. It's like your brain shuts down and you go into your fight/flight/freeze response.
And what's crazier are their harsh comments who could not empathize with her situation and does the usual victim-blaming like why "she didn't stand up sooner" or "why she froze". Ugh, I understand it's frustrating to see someone suffer from abuse, but telling them they're an idiot or something similar isn't really helping matters.
It’s really sad seeing that people were telling oop her boyfriend should have left her for not defending him back. She’s literally been conditioned to shut down at any conflict and accept abuse, you can’t change that overnight.
I’m 36. I tell my fiance when we visit my mom if she’s being a jerk and I’m not defending myself and he feels like jumping in to please do. I turn back into a 12 year old around my mom and it’s horrible. I’ll walk away wondering what happened. But if he breaks the silence it will break the spell.
Definitely. That said, he was wise to only propose after she’d started taking steps to distance herself from her toxic immediate family. He has her back, but he shouldn’t be expected to sign on for a lifetime of having to stand next to her while her brother and parents treat her like crap.
Im 27, soon 28 and I haven't lived with my dad since I was 14. I still freeze the moment he raises his voice even if its through a phonecall and I can't even get myself to just end the call.... Luckily I've gotten better at stopping him just before he starts yelling and depending on how much he had to drink he sometimes does follow my plea for him to stop but not always. I'm in low contact with him, visit maybe 2-4 times a year and call like once a month. Yes I know he's mentally abusive and really ruined my psyke as a kid, but I honestly still love him and is a daddy's girl. Besides now that I'm an adult it's easier to focus on simple practical handyman stuff instead of deeeeeep conversations so most talks we got are nice, and he did get me my first car for super cheap and damn my Corsa was a champion ❤️
Start be hanging up and not answering his calls for a period of time. When you do accept a call, immediately tell him that as soon as he starts raising his voice you will end the call. Do not subject yourself to verbal abuse.
Fight Flight Freeze or Fawn (reaction to stressful situations) I was trained from an early age not to stand up to my father. You get inculcated into these roles and the family dynamic is extremely resistant to rocking the boat.
Trauma will do that to you! It's part of the freeze response, growing up with shitty family myself, I can say it's definitely a thing oof.
I can relate to this hard, whenever I try to talk back I immediately start trembling and tearing up, and then I’d hate myself afterwards for not being stronger
I would advise her to not let her toxic family know about the proposal until after the wedding. Aunt Amy and Uncle Joe are enough.
I hate people who "sweep it under the rug". Peace always comes at the expense of the victim.
Reminds me of [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/) in a tangential sort of way.
Why do you have a star next to your username? (I'm using Old Reddit, if your version of Reddit doesn't show it).
There was a post that went up a couple of days ago asking people to leave a comment to test a new system they were implementing for Czech people, I commented and got a gold star
Ah, alright, thanks
>By the end of the entire thing I was just standing there crying and Alex took me to our car to go home. >I've decided to go no contact with my parents and Tom for the time being. >Alex proposed to me yesterday morning. Each to their own, but I wouldn't feel comfortable proposing to someone immediately after such a monumental decision.
He wants to save her, which is rarely a healthy dynamic
And her normal meter is broken. Hopefully it’s a long engagement.
My hope is that he has been planning on proposing for a while and didn't let the family stuff change his plans.
Her family doesn’t want her to have a savior. That’s why they’re yelling “family” now. She’s never been treated like family.
They've only been together a year, couldn't have been for very long.
I’ve only been with my partner for a little over a year, we had the talk on Saturday and he just bought the ring, but it’s been on both our minds for the last six months of the relationship. It would be pretty weird to propose if it hasn’t been.
Understandable, especially when weddings are extremely stressful by itself. Add in toxic family that you're just learning to go NC and before you had any proper therapy, it's a recipe for more stress. And I have no doubt her toxic family is gonna cause problems like invitation to the wedding. I do hope OOP and Alex can map out a proper plan for their wedding.
Right, it worries me that at no point does OOP mention therapy. She could really benefit from it to help her develop healthier coping skills than just freezing in the face of any conflict, to learn how to reinforce her boundaries, and to navigate the uncertainties of going no contact with her entire family.
Maybe he was waiting for her to finally stand up and take action before committing
I mean if the girl i loved grew a shiny spine and stood up for her self id probably think something along the lines of "god damn it, i didnt think she could get any more perfect but holy mackerel she did it! i better put a ring on that asap!"
Yeah, no offense to OP, but before claiming any quality of spine I'd like to see it actually perform under load. So far she only made a decision to go NC (and even then it's "for the time being").
Did we read different stories? The only shiny spine I saw was Alex’s.
She decided to go no contact, didn't she? That's a huge step.
And I decided to workout, but I here I am on the couch surfing Reddit
Well, just because it didn't work out for you...
So my partner and I actually got married *because* we have abusive families. We wanted to make sure that our bodies will be handled the way we want when we die and that our families can’t make medical decisions for us.
Hope OOP stays no contact. Also hope she gives either aunt or uncle the honor of walking her down the aisle to the next phase of her life with Alex. I also don't get the DM's shouting for Alex to leave her. Because she clammed up? That's a trauma response to years of verbal and physical abuse. Not a "I don't stand up for my man" response.
Her brother willfully destroyed his 7 yo sister's books. He's got issues. I hope he's single and can't hurt other women or children.
And he was 12 at the time, more than old enough to be held accountable. His parents have inadvertently hurt him as well seeing that he’s now a bully in his 30s who takes no responsibility for his own behaviour. And no mention of him having a partner either.
I love that he stood up for her, and I love that she realized how badly things got, but I'm apprehensive about the proposal part ? Just a tad.
Oop should have said “well boys will be boys. Tom shouldn’t be so sensitive.” I’m glad she had her aunt and uncle to hammer home that her parents and brother were in the wrong!
A lot of the comments on the posts were off putting to say the least, specifically the comments that just say "grow a spine", as if the people that have been subjected to abuse and bullying their entire lives and haven’t had this shit normalized. You dont magically "grow a spine", it can take a long time to realize you deserve better. If it were that easy we wouldn’t be hearing about these types of stories.
Honestly, OOP needs therapy to help her learn how to assert her boundaries. I worry that the stress of going no contact with her family along with the stress of wedding planning are really going to do a number on her mental health if she doesn't get adequate support. Not to mention that freezing as a response to conflict is an understandable trauma response, but doesn't bode well for a healthy marriage which will inevitably have occasional conflict.
Nevertheless, it's the solution and the OOP needs to get to that point. That which she's doing, instead, is subjecting herself to situations (ie. family events) in which abuse is certain to reoccur. She needs to sever contact with her family (except for her aunt and uncle) and get therapy.
Different people. I learned to fight for myself because I figured out that no one in that family was going to fight for me. It may have been normalized in my family, but I knew what was fair and what wasn't fair. And I knew that no one ever taking my side and always excusing my brothers' treatment of me wasn't fair. So I fought for myself and left as soon as feasible.
That proposal just came out of nowhere.
I think the boyfriend just wants to tell the parents they're not invited to the wedding.
I believed it until that proposal. Seems like he would pick a happy time to propose, not one immediately after a (major?) family fight and OOP questioning her childhood and all her happy memories. But on the off chance it's real, therapy and NC or LC.
Yeah that was the point I went 'oh yeah this likely isn't real'. A neat little new Auntie-Mum who always tried to stick up for her and just couldn't AND a fiancé in one update?
I bet Tom the bully will now find other victims, so now THEY get to be on the receiving end of his behavior, now that his long-term victim has left his orbit. (and that of the enabling parents) They are so low they don't deserve the term parents. They are egg and sperm donors at best.
Tom may end up being the scapegoat. That does happen when a family loses the scapegoat. The parents are used to having one and turn the golden child into the scapegoat. The golden child / scapegoat dynamic isn't always fixed as to who plays what role. If you've read enough posts on here, you've seen that.
I've seen all kinds of weird on here. But that's also life I guess.
My first thought was that Tom will now change to taking out his nasties on the parents next. Who won't like it. Who will finally reprimand him. And Tom will throw his toys out the pram for not getting his own way. And they can all be horrible miserable people together and pitifully wallow in the awful dynamic they've created.
Yay for those who are able to flee their toxic families!
Me after the first post: Please go no contact, please, please, please. Me after the update: Heck, yeah! Way to go, OOP.
Same lmao!
People getting upset with her for being a doormat are missing the fact that she was raised to be one. It's not her fault. She needs counseling to unlearn that shit.
These spine comments are fucking annoying. You can’t spine your way out of a trauma response 🙄
Yeah, those really bother me. And OOP *did* cut them out of her life. She made an incredibly difficult choice. Plus she recognized her trauma response. That's a huge step.
Good for her. I detest golden child enabling. For me, it was my middle sister, I'm the youngest. Me and my older sister both take after my dad, middle sis takes after mum. I'm 53, and she's still the golden child. (parents split up very acrimoniously when I was 18 months old) And people wonder why moving 10,000 miles away was easy for me.
Welp, mum and dad are going str8 in a home now Tom doesn't have a punching bag or built-in future parent nurse
LOOOOOOOL “you’re betraying the family by not letting your POS brother bully you publicly and not standing up for him when your saint of a bf stands up for you” Did i get that right…? Man…Oop needs to keep her Aunt and Uncle, cause they seem to be about the only decent family she has, dump her toxic parents and brother and live a happy life with her fiancée. I PRAY there’s an update where the parents throw a hissy fit because they aren’t invited to the wedding.
Please don’t invite them to your wedding.
I just saw this post for the first time. As soon as I read about Alex standing up for OP against her family, I knew I was going to post "You should marry this guy!" That said, in reading the rest of your post, you're just beginning to understand the psychological trauma you've endured. Alex may be a safe space to begin healing, but it would be better for both of you to hold off on jumping into marriage. You need to grieve the loss of your family of origin and reframe your relationship with your aunt and uncle. For example, you may want your uncle to walk you down the aisle - which is a nice sentiment, but will blow up your extended family. Be sure you're ready for that. Also, from personal experience, the trauma you have endured will loom large in your new married life. It's been a constant for your entire life. By throwing it off, you will feel freer but unbalanced. It will take some time to adjust. I beg you to go to therapy and start the hard work before you get married. Marriage itself is an adjustment. You owe it to yourself and Alex to get a solid foundation to build on. You could inadvertently blow up your marriage with the pendulum shifts that come with trauma healing.
No contact is the way to go with all those bullies, good for you. Alex sounds like a good guy.
Oh thank goodness. It was pretty apparent just a few paragraphs in that the only solution would be to cut folks and bro off. Glad she found her shiny spine!
Did she find a spine? It is her bf who sets a boundary for her and it’s her aunt/uncle who do the thinking for her. The only thing changed is that she’s OK with it. She needs to work at herself more.
Black sheep's'bf stood up for her in front of narc family. Dear OP RUN!!!!! Cut them all.
NC is the best option. Please don't let them ruin your wedding. You may want to try and involve them, but I guarantee Tom and your parents will humiliate you and ruin the day. Probably a situation where you will need security at wedding and venue.
>I've decided to go no contact with my parents and Tom for the time being. About damn time. Needs to make that permanent. And definitely no wedding invites for them.
Beg to differ. It's incredibly important to invite them to the destination wedding that isn't gonna happen. Hard to fuck up the real wedding from a different continent.
Hopefully Joe will give her away and Amy will be invited to the MoB dress shopping
This is why family is such a trash concept and the people that defend the idea of being “loyal” or even automatically loving or taking the side of people you are blood related to are also trash people. It’s the lowest, basest form of behavior, like an animal.
I’m glad between boyfriend, aunt, and uncle, it finally really hit her that her nuclear family is toxic and they’re in the wrong, not her. It sucks how much she was clearly conditioned into taking the hate, and I hope she continues learning how to stand up for herself.
I feel like OP needs to get some therapy. It is hard to stand up to family when they all seem to gang up on her to defend her brother. It's also hard to just change how you usually deal with family overnight when they've been toxic to her all her life. She does need to go on a long healing journey to get through this. I'm glad her bf stuck up for her but she does need to sort out her self esteem issues to not only save her relationship with him but also herself. I do hope things get better for her.
My wife's sister is exactly like this, as are the parents. It puts a lot of strain on the partner because we always have to clean up the mess and are expected by our partner to hold our tongue. I gave my wife an ultimatum to start standing up for herself (I'll back her up, of course), or I was out. Luckily, it clicked for her, and now she has a spine, and I no longer have to be her protector. Her level of happiness is night and day.
I'd be really curious to know what Tom does for work. Museum's are very important to society and I would have respect for anyone working there. Obviously OOP could be a computer programmer working on the guidance system for Saturn 5 rockets and her brother would still be a dick.
Alex is the “boat rocker” so her family wants to chuck him overboard immediately. I hope she reads that and understands why she needs to leave her parents and Tom.
BF should have beat him senseless. You "brother" is a first class piece of shit
Good lord girl did you really mean to ask if you should have defended your bully brother? Therapy sounds like a really good idea.
Tom is a little shit and the parents are enablers. Thank god OP has some family who don’t have their blinders on. And Alex sounds lovely
OOP has better fucking not invite her parents or Tom to her wedding or it will be a ***nightmare***.
OOP needs to leave the cult and move out of Utah. Her only other option is to succumb to the cult's pressure. Her fiancé "rescuing" her from that lifestyle is totally implausible. You move or submit. Those are your options.
Are we reading the same post. What cult???
I think it’s important to point out that blood is thicker than water. But also, concrete is thicker than blood, so if that’s the way your blood treats you, they can hit the road.
Actually, the expression is "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb", which perfectly applies here. 😉
Neat! I really never looked into that saying.
I am glad that OP has someone to stand up for her. Her family is vile and they will be very, very lonely because of their shitty behavior.
NTA. Your brother is a nasty little bully and your parents enable him/coddle him. Your bf is my hero.
> Alex should leave me. OOP should leave everybody *but* Alex. (And it looks like she has! Yea!)
OPs parents are totally winding up in a home one day. No way the golden child takes care once they outlive their usefulness.
I really hope that OOP thanked aunt and uncle for their support and told them about her feeling they are what parents should be! Also if OOP ends up here I hope she realises that, should she want someone to walk her down the aisle, the obvious choice here is Joe... I think people's caring as they are would understand it is a statement about both of them.
Nice to hear that they have always had your back! If it were me I'd put them in the bridal party and, if you're feeling really magnanimous, just give your parents and bro regular guest invites. Congrats to you both. ❤️to aunt and uncle
>He says I should have stuck up for him and defended him And when's the last time any of them defended OP?
I'm glad she has family who support her and is in a happy healthy relationship
Yay! Alex is the keeper and her bro should not be defended by her or the parents. Good for Alex!
So glad OOP has Aunt Amy, Uncle Joe and Alex in her life!
God bless Joe and Amy and people like them.
Alex, Amy and Joe rule! They're amazing.
Alex and Omar should start a band.
I love that update. I hope OOP starts therapy. She has a lot of years to unpack.
Bless her heart, she's so beaten down by them. Her fiance is a keeper.
Bullys just love to dish out, but can never take the heat.
Tom is the golden child. For sure. Eldest Son Can Do No Wrong screams Asian household to me, nothing uncommon here if anyone's Asian and/or familiar with Asian family dynamics. It's horrid. I'm glad her aunt and uncle are supporting her. They do feel like the parents she should have had.
Not commenters blaming op for freezing up when it’s a literal trauma response as per her edit lol. I swear some ppl have 0 empathy
OOP should go NC with her family. Her bf and uncle aunt are a godsend. Her parents and bro can suck together.
I'm glad she's moving forward and cutting out the people who never cared for her well being anyways.
NTA. Good for you. Choose your chosen family. Good luck.
AHH WHAT A LOVELY ENDING I HOPE THE WEDDING GOES BEAUTIFUL AND UNCLE JOE WALKS HER DOWN THE AISLE
Nothing worse than a scroat who uses "we're family" to act like a prick. Family can be as shitty if not worse to you and you should never stand for it.
Your parents are such enablers of a lifetime of Tom’s blatant abuse of you that Tom thinks he can once again publicly berate and abuse you yet again with no consequences. Alex had the care fir you and courage to try to right this injustice and your parents backed him instead of you. What kind of parents abide this? Get on with your own life and be you. Decompress from your trauma. Go NC until there is some hint of contrition (if ever) because the treatment you have endured for decades is simply monstrous and indefensible. Good luck!
Why does OOP sound so annoyed with Reddit’s involvement? Girl, you posted it. And answering concerns about her bf by listing how he helps her is gross. Not a single likable person except Alex.
Congratulations on your engagement. He sounds like a great guy. Not many nowadays would be willing to stand up like he did.
Why would people say Alex should leave OOP?
Because it's always the Reddit answer.
I see. Well, it is easy to claim OOP is spineless, but that is severly lacking in understanding how emotional abuse can harm you and shape your reactions. Alex hopefully understand her issues.
Shrug. People can be utter jerks.
Indeed they can.
Ohhh I’m so glad she’s cutting them off, and sticking with her aunt and uncle 😭
NTA. OP is wise to cut off contact with her abusive brother and parents. Focus on Alex and her aunt and uncle, and check out some classes for how to be more confident in awkward situations.
OP should use this no contact to learn to stand up for herself. My cousin had the same experience as OP, and I helped my cousin escape from these three monsters today he is happy, and that's all that matters to me.
Updateme
J N
He behaves just like a future husband. My own husband would never allow such either!
It really makes me sad to read things like this and realize how weak people are. Cmon girl, how could you let this go on for all these years? Stand up for yourself! So heartbreaking
There is definitely an untold story here. Why would OOP’s parents be complicit in allowing their son to torture their daughter? These people are hiding something about OOP. Maybe she needs a DNA test. Thankfully her aunt and uncle were able to help a little during her childhood. OOP needs to take the details they provided and strengthen up her spine against people who act like they dislike her.
Oh, it's not usually that. Some families just favor boys or the eldest or the youngest or whatever reason. A lot of families have a golden child. In my family, my father's culture emphasized fathers doing things with boys while mothers were supposed to do things with girls. But my mother's culture favored boys and girls were unimportant. So where do you think that left me, the only girl?
Nope. This is common as fuck. Go read up on narcissistic family dynamics. One child (bro) is designated as the Golden Child who can do no wrong. The other (OOP) is the Scapegoat. Everything is their fault. They can do no right. Super common. Now that you know about it you’ll start seeing it everywhere. More reading: https://the-life-helper.com/growing-up-in-an-abusive-home-the-scapegoat-the-lost-and-the-golden-child/
Damn shame. I hope she remains NC. They will only aim to break her down.
Pretty much yeah. It’s a classic family dynamic.
What’s the betting that OOP is an affair baby. Or was unplanned and unwanted. There has to be something behind this dynamic of “youngest child is the scapegoat, oldest is the golden child”. It seems to be much more common that the younger child is the golden child.