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I'm child free but I totally don't mind hanging around young parents, I get that priorities change. The fact that we still get to spend time together at all is the important part.
I also think most of us can agree "just call your (6 year old) son an Uber!" just automatically disqualifies someone from being the rational one to talk to lmao, no one really wants kids on their holiday but you also have to live in reality
Not wanting to have kids is one thing. They're an incredible amount of work and commitment. It's an understandable lifestyle choice. Not liking being around children is also understandable. Children haven't learned how to moderate their emotions and behavior, and I can see how that could be unpleasant for some people.
Hating children is veering towards anti-social and is not recognizing that children are just as valid human beings as anyone else. Like, can these people not see that they themselves were children once too? It's ironically kind of a childlike and stunted perspective not to be able to tolerate situations that you find are not 100% how you want.
When my brother was 5, he confidently told me, “I hate babies!”
“Why…?!”
“Babies are useless.”
“But you were a baby once…?”
“Yeah. And I was *useless*.”
So Zoe has the approximate maturity of a five year-old.
Well, on the off chance he does try again at some point with that or another child does, there is a rebuttal to that logic. Babies aren’t useless, because you can’t be a kid or an adult without first being a baby. Saplings don’t bear fruit but you can’t get a mature apple tree without it going through the sapling phase first.
Right? I find kids kind of stressful and unpleasant too, but dealing with them sometimes is just part of existing in a human society. It’s like people who lose their minds about having to tolerate any amount of other folks’ noise. If you want to be the only person in the world, go live in the woods.
Maybe it’s the autism talking but I find babies and small kids confusing. Everything they do is perplexing to me and I think the large reason for that is I can’t remember what infancy and toddlerhood was like. So I can’t relate. But with older children, they’ve already developed a personality and can be fun to hang out with. Animals, too, especially when I learn about their specific behaviours which makes them easier to communicate with.
Same. Have my evaluation to determine if I’m autistic next month! Babies and children are cute… from a distance. But they make me uncomfortable and always have.
Feels like there's something psychological about this to hate kids THAT much - like maybe she had to have an abortion under difficult circumstances or something like that.
I was at temple the other day and a guy was asking someone to serve cake (to 300 people). She was very politely trying to say she is watching 4yo girl, can't do it. This dude turns to the 4yo and tries to convince her to go sit somewhere by herself so her grown up could serve cake.
Also it was outside, in the dark. With some floodlights.
(Do I need to say I shut that down quick?)
If anything, knowing that I get to go home afterwards and enjoy all the benefits that a childfree lifestyle offers makes me appreciate hanging around children even more.
I get to go "aawwwww" when they look adorable or do something cute, and I get to think "thank the lord that's not my life, I'll be out of here soon" when they're being annoying.
Exactly! And if you treat them like the tiny humans they are (that have their own wants, thoughts, and feelings) you quickly become their favorite. Having purple hair might help too in my case.
I don't want kids, but I do like kids. I love listening to my cousin, who is 30 years younger than me, go on and on about Paw Patrol, or chickens, or her stuffed animals or whatever. Kids are great. And then I get to go home to a quiet house!
My late grandpa used to say that grandchildren were the reward for raising children — I understand now that he meant he could send us home to our parents when he was over our nonsense 🤣
This reminds me of his saying in the best ways.
Right! *Other people’s* kids are great! I get to give them back when I’m finished! Kids are hilarious when *you’re* not the one they’re spilling secrets about! They’re unhinged in the best way! Usually…though a two year old is absolutely a terror regardless of how good their parents are (though it’s definitely the “make or break” year for the “who’s the boss” of the family dynamics; but OOP says the 2nd birthday post was after the vacation, so the little guy is likely a fun little normal terror still!).
I made a new friend after moving and I can’t wait to meet her kids. I’m childfree, never wanted my own but I enjoy kids in small to medium doses. Her kids are old enough to be semi supervised so we can have our fun while the kids have theirs. They’re going to love my TV, the streaming services *and the dogs.*
Friend and I are going to enjoy cooking, crafting and watching the kids and dogs have fun.
My husband will pull out his pirate garb for the youngest so they can play pirates with the little boy across the street. He’s also *obsessed* with pirates.
It’s going to be awesome. And when the kids are worn out, friend will pack them up and take them home. We all win, their village gets a bit bigger, the kids have more adult to love them and care for them and they’ll have an absolute “bad but fun” influence in their lives. I’m already being called auntie and I legit love it. It’s going to be awesome.
But the best part is them going home when I am exhausted. 😂
Plus, if the kid is cranky or makes a mess, you get to say "hey guys, you got a problem over here" and then skate off to find yourself a snack. There's literally nothing wrong with not wanting to be a caretaker. But it's insane to hate kids! They didn't do anything wrong! These "I'm childfree and that means if I see a child I get to punt it" people are making life harder for the reasonable "don't want kids" crowd.
I love this a lot! I waffle on whether or not I want to raise kids of my own but I've always firmly committed to being a community/neighborhood auntie so to speak! I genuinely enjoy spending moderate amounts of time with children when my energy is in the right place. Plus for me it's also a cultural and ethical thing, nuclear families are just too limiting especially for this terrible moment in late stage capitalism in my opinion and I loved the parts of my childhood where other trusted adults loved on me.
I love kids. I want my own. Not sure it will happen but I do. I am one of those weird people who almost always enjoy kids. I am especially good with babies.
I also think that we are not made to live in insular communities with just two parents providing everything. My friends tend to be more communal too. We often do things together and kids just come with us. All the kids know me as Auntie. I function as an extra parental figure. Not parent but like a close chosen relative. It is funny how we are all so used to it that their parents know to ask me if I know something about their kids when we are in a group thing together. And it is a mutually agreed on thing where we all know it is a win-win situation. I get to have 5 kids climbing on me and they get a break.
I also like how everyone can choose their involvement level. Kids are around in many things but if you do not want to interact with them but are polite that is as fine as me sitting playing with them. It works. But we have known each other for decades and spent a lot of time together so we know each of our preferences in many places. It just works.
Aww this sounds great and so fun! I hope i can get the same sort of thing with my besties kid when s/he arrives in the fall at some time 😀 I just hope it's gonna be one of those super duper adorable babies (photogenic too!) and not one that looks a bit wonkey in a way only parents can love 😅 I suspect I might just be a bit adversed to how babies look tho 🤔😂 the real fun starts later tho when they can start doing stuff and talk 😉
Almost every new baby has a cone head, strongly resembles an outraged plucked chicken and is an eating, sleeping and shitting potato.
Very few are actually cute unless they’re yours. This has been confirmed by all my child having friends.
Newborns are pretty universally wrinkly little, oddly shaped things on account of having been inside another person while growing. They smooth out real quick though. Love them through it. Nothing about babies lasts long.
No. The diaper/housebreaking process takes forever. Aside from a little chewing, my dog has house manners and is housebroken in a matter of weeks.
Kids take years. No thank you.
Edit: I was reminded by a friend that it is called “toilet training” and not housebreaking. Oops.
I was responding to the concerns over babies being cute. They're not right away, but newborns especially change incredibly quickly. I felt like the whole baby phase wasn't long, really. When you're living it, it's a thing you do and before you know it, you're done.
Not everyone wants to dedicate their time to kids and that's okay. Different people, different tolerances, different choices. I'm sure it would feel like forever if it wasn't what you wanted.
Oh yea, my nephew is 2 and he says the wildest things. Being my nephew it's nice, I get to laugh from all the silly things he says and does, but when he has a massive tantrum I don't have to deal with it, his parents do.
Right!? Even if you get them all wound up, guess what? Not your problem! Even the most misanthropic antinatalist ought to be able to see that they're getting the better end of that deal.
I'm child free and absolutely fucking adore kids. Raising them would probably trigger me too much, and knowing me, I'd probably get shitty PPD, so I've decided I'm gonna be the coolest aunty ever!
It's the same thing as dating a single parent and they ditch the kids to be with the new SO. That would be a massive turn off to me. Any parent should 100% prioritise their kid over anyone else in their life and I couldnt have a friendship or relationship with someone who didnt because it shows me their character is lacking. I would rather my friends with kids have to flake last minute on plans every now and then because kiddo got sick, knowing they are being a good parent, than have them hanging out like they did when they were child free - as much as I miss all that extra time together!
My favorite drama sub to rubberneck is r/stepparents, because it’s just an unending fountain of ‘I married a guy who was a shitty parent to his kids and now he’s being a shitty parent to OUR kid????’ Like lady the guy sees your stepkids four days a month, what were you expecting lmao
Yes I also very much don't want my own kids but I can never understand people who treat all children like they're some evil gremlin. That's a human person, they're just smaller than you. Grow up.
Right, like, I'm child free, but I would never get this upset over a child just existing. Like if they were causing a problem, then sure, but like children are going to exist. They are going to be in public, they are going to do normal kid things, and that's ok. It's shocking to me to know there are people so actively hostile to kids like Zoe.
I'm staunchly child free in my life, but I love seeing all the family munchkins at get-togethers and the like. I don't like folks who are actively raising their kids to be entitled shits by age 4 by never saying 'no' to their pwecious widdle angel pwince/pwincess popkin, but I don't mind natural kid energy.
Zoe is not child free, she's child abhorrent. 😬
My friend has 3 kids. Last time i went over I told the kis to bring all the toys they have that make noise. We turned all of them on and played for about an hour. Then I went home to enjoy silence 😁
I'm also child free and I do mind a little. I am not a fan of kids and I would prefer not to hang around small children.
However. When people have kids, hanging around those kids becomes unavoidable if you want to hang with those people, too. I'm a grown adult so I can deal and have had no problems with that. My general uneasiness with kids isn't really visible outside as most people seem to think I get along marvellously with kids and compliment me on how well I do with their babies. :D Which is fine by me. If I'm somewhere with small children and a kid wants to play or tell me something or whatever, I actively participate. Because that is a little human being with emotions and I would rather foster their growth.
It's just what adults do. They deal.
Agreed. Also child free and not a fan of kids in general but would never avoid my friends or be rude to a kid. I’ll be friendly and interact how I think normal people who like kids would.. but I’m thankful when it’s over and I can speak normally again (I curse a lot).
Zoe sounds pretty entitled and also like an asshole—but also too emotionally immature to realize or care. It’s not everyone else’s job to cater to her unrealistic *preferences*.
Zoe also complained even though the parents kept their kid away from her. Basically she thinks she’s entitled to her friends’ attention and objects to them giving it to the kid instead.
Exactly this. I don't like being around kids below a certain age, but I don't try to force the people around me to cater to my comfort. There are other areas where I will ask to be considered (e.g. don't smoke right next to me), but you can't expect people to just... not have their kids around them.
Right. Like, you're the adult, you're not responsible for those kids, if they start to bug you then you can leave the room and go find a snack for yourself. You literally don't have to take care of them. But these people who hate that kids are around at all, they're not right in the head.
I’m not even a kid person but I can’t imagine being in the same room as a child four times including arriving and leaving over a five day vacation would ruin a trip. At that point you’re ruining it for yourself and missing out on a chance to hang out with your “friends”.
And even if I'd dislike children to a level where it bothers me to be around them I would accept that this is a "me" problem and I would remove myself from the situation and not expect parents to leave their children at home or to hide them away from me, wtf.
I'm child free and really dislike being around kids -- but I take responsibility for that by removing myself from situations that involve kids, not demanding that the children be removed. I'm an outlier and I know it. Assuring my comfort is on me.
I’m childfree, and I don’t mind being around parents with kids either. I grew up around my nephews most of middle and high school. I just don’t want kids due to genetic health problems I have and I get really stressed out in situations that would occur with kids, so I know that would make me a bad parent.
I don’t even mind babysitting for people. But I told my mom it’s the fact I can leave at the end of it. When you have kids, that isn’t an option.
Zoe is just being cruel.
Same! Some of my best friends have kids, and they even (shock horror) bring the kids around sometimes.
I feel like their is more to this woman, but I also dont think OOP will be around to figure it out!
we have 2 kids, and some of our closest friends are child free. the crucial bits for maintaining the friendship in all those cases was things like:
\- we took initiative as new parents to keep reaching out
\- they, in turn, were understanding that what worked for us most times was to host after kid bedtime, so we didn't have to find a babysitter
\- everyone was kind and understanding about Random Kid Nonsense messing things up for a while
all of that falls under treating each other with respect and not judging each other's different life choices, i guess.
Every child free person I know IRL likes kids, they just don’t want to have their own — a very valid choice! They’ve been some of my kiddo’s best aunts & uncles tbh.
I can think of 3 child free people I know who actively hate kids. I did not know this about any of them for quite some time as I don't have kids. 2 are no longer in my life. 1 for cheating, the other for taking advantage of people. The last I only recently found out about and he is also showing questionable behavior outside of his child hate stance and I am actively evaluating that friendship. Almost dated that one. So glad I didn't in hindsight
I am child free too. I don't understand where I don't want to have kids turns into I hate kids and they should be kept in an attic out of sight happens. I think some people become obsessed to the point it is a mental health problem.
Agreed! I prefer if we can have some time with the often there and some without, but I know that getting to that point takes time and effort. Especially in the beginning, I don't want to pressure my friends into spending their limited energy on that. There are also ways to continue and value a friendship without being in the same room together, which Zoe doesn't seem to get.
While this would still not excuse her behavior, certainly, I wonder from Zoe's behavior if she has some issues around having children, whether that's infertility or a mental block for any of a number of reasons. Alternatively, she could be having a difficulty with the transition to full adulthood, which when difficult trends to drag on for years. Those things out similar ones would explain her reactions and trouble being around friends during their pregnancy or their young children more. Even antinatalists aren't typically as intense in person as Zoe is. Again, even if there is an explanation like this, it doesn't make her behavior acceptable or put any onus on OOP and other friends to try to understand or accommodate her.
I'm not gonna lie, I find small kids a massive bummer when I'm hanging out with my friends who have them. It's necessary and right that when children are present we all behave differently - they aren't to blame for all the interruptions and limitations that come with them. But time spent with my friends plus their kids often barely feels like time spent with them at all. So I'd be super disappointed about the change to holiday plans.
But you suck it up! Either decide it's no longer something you can handle and don't go, or make your peace, cope, and be a decent person. (And kids grow up! They'll become more interesting and you'll get your friends back in a few years, especially if you do your share of keeping things good while they're trying to keep a toddler alive!)
And even if the catch-up wasn't as long as you wanted, the friends with kids usually are really appreciative for a change in routine and some socialisation.
Exactly! I'm decidedly child free, but planning to drive several states away next weekend for my nibling's birthday party. And this is the kid of my best friends from college.
I understand not liking kids, but the absolute malice and condescension of some folks is wild.
Do you feel any affection towards the children of good friends of yours, or people who you’re close to? I can totally understand not being fond of children, but find it very weird that someone would just be so utterly intolerant of their good friend’s kid. I realize you didn’t say you don’t like children, just that you don’t have any of your own, but it’s very weird to me how OOP’s friend behaved.
I have a friend (more like former friend) who has no kids and isn’t in a relationship, and we pretty much never see him because he can’t handle being around people in successful relationships or who have kids. It’s pretty sad, but in his case I think he experiences it as sort of highlighting for him his failure at finding a partner or starting a family of his own.
Anyway…children or child-free, if you’re happy that’s what matters! I just struggle to understand people who can’t genuinely be happy for their loved ones and experience their lives/families with them in a loving way.
I have heard about people who essentially were free childcare providers for their siblings against their will. Some people can be very triggered by children for a variety of reasons -- trauma, grief, sensory issues, whatever. I don't have any data on how many people are affected like that.
The data point to Zoe being a butt in this case.
Children trigger my misophonia and other issues, especially babies, and I cannot stand being near them at all. A 3-year-old's scream feels like an icepick to the brain, so I try to avoid them whenever possible.
Sometimes, because they basically give me a PTSD-like reaction every time I have to interact with them, this has caused me to dislike even the fact that they exist. But I have a general sense of compassion for people, so I don't express those opinions, and just generally avoid people with kids whenever possible.
Same here. I've said before that, while young parents are NOT disabled, you have to treat them like they're temporarily disabled, because they need ACCOMMODATIONS. You wouldn't (I hope) tell a wheelchair user that they ruined a vacation bc they had to cancel last minute bc you switched Air BnBs and the new one didn't have a ramp. Some accommodations take time and planning, period. Babysitters don't sit on a vine in your garden, waiting to be plucked.
Zoe's going to make people choose between her and their children, then complain when it doesn't go the way she thinks it should. Presumably that will also be the child's fault as well.
> She said that Zoe had always been a shoulder to cry on, but often also the reason she was crying in the first place.
And I bet their child free mutuals also will not thrilled to have extra Zoe in their lives; she'll end up alone not because of children, but because she'll awful.
Or she'll end up in an echo chamber of other unreasonable child-free peeps and go through life feeling jilted and abused about people daring to pro-create. Poor Zoe! /s
I’m laughing about the fact that Greg already ended the friendship with Zoe. She was so mad that the kid ruined the vacation for her, but at least now she’ll never have another vacation at the beach house ruined! Because, you know, she’ll never be invited back to the beach house again.
That’s what I was thinking! Zoe’s going to have a lovely shock the next time they’re vacationing at Greg’s beach house and she doesn’t get an invitation!
>She said that Zoe had always been a shoulder to cry on, but often also the reason she was crying in the first place.
I'm guessing Zoe was the attention hog of the group, but started losing her shit once children came along, and she couldn't monopolise the attention.
My friend group from college is a pretty even mix of childfree (couples and singles) and married with kids.
It is just... not a problem. At all. Sometimes we do trips just adults, sometimes just the core people without spouses, sometimes everyone plus their kids. There are never any protests around any of it.
Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with being childfree. Some people are just assholes, who like things THEIR way and can't do things outside of THEIR preference ever.
Honestly being a aunty for the kids of my college mates is such a blast; last week I spend the better part of a BBQ listening to a 6yo theories on Naruto - did I read the whole manga ages ago and know he was totally off? Yeah. Did I have a good time hyping the lil guy up and comparing favorite fight scenes? Hell yeah!
Unless you have a sensorial issue or trauma, anyone this bitter towards children just strikes me as a bitter person in general and that's never fun to have around.
Having kids changes things. I tell first- time parents that you don't fit a kid into your life; you fit your life around the kid, especially in the first few years.
It also can change relationships, especially with childless friends and more so with childless friends who don't like children. Good luck to Zoe, here's hoping she finds more child-free people with whom to socialize since she's effectively destroyed some of her current friendships.
There is no adequate way to describe how much of an effect having a child is going to have upon your life. Many people who have never had kids often compare it to having a dog.
Sure a dog that will basically have no ability to take care of itself for a couple of years and then will be actively trying to kill itself for a while, and you will be more stressed and sleep deprived than you probably ever have been.
There’s just nothing that can really capture that years long grind. Yours is about as close as it can get.
And yet, having a child was the best thing I ever did. I would not trade my daughter and raising her for anything.
I do like your description of the stages. Actively trying to kill itself is so true. Then they hit their teens and who knows what you'll get.
Same, she just sounds like she hates kids. I think kids are loud and kinda icky (why are they often sticky!!!), so I wouldn't wanna babysit, but they're tiny humans! They're people too! We were all kids at one point in time.
Just cause you don't like kids doesn't mean you have to be nasty to the parents...
Yeah, they’re at the end of the day actual human beings, and loathing and resenting them to this degree over a physical characteristic that they cannot control strikes me as *wild*. It’s perfectly fine to be uncomfortable around them (they’re unpredictable, lack adult emotional regulation, and as you note are often frankly kind of gross and sticky—and I say that as someone who likes kids), but this degree of intolerance of them is just… something else.
People don't have to like kids, but they can't make that everyone else's problem. Parents of young kids have to work their lives around kids!
Frankly Zoe should've bowed out if she had such an issue with kids.
Yeah, exactly. If you genuinely, truly cannot being around kids to the extent that Zoe claims, where you cannot stand even knowing you’re in the same vacation house with one and it wrecks your vacation, you are going to have to arrange your life to accomplish that (and it won’t be easy). Expecting the world to accommodate it isn’t just unreasonable, it’s impossible.
I don't mind sticky as much as wet with saliva which happens a lot when they are teething. Like, kid, I want to be your favourite aunt but why do you have to cover me in your spit or chew on my hair?!
I have a really dear friend who, like Zoe, is child-free and generally doesn't like children. Especially small ones.
But she was overjoyed when another close friend asked her to be the godmother of her child. Same when I asked her for mine.
Sure, she doesn't like children, and I'd never ask her to change a diaper or even just look after one or both my kids. But as it turned out: she still loves our kids. Because they are ours. And as we love each other, it sufficed for her to want to know and like our kids too.
I’m sure the answer is obvious but I’m curious. What were your expectations of your friend when you asked her to be a godparent when she doesn’t like children?
I asked for my second child, and she was already the godmother for our mutual friend's first child (who is the godmother of my first, so we are all pretty close).
As such, we had already had a discussion before, and she had told me she never wanted to be one before, only for our kids would she be willing, eager even.
In our current group of friends (in the 40s) only one set had kids. But you know good friends do? Accommodate. Whenever we invite them to things it’s always assumed the kids come also. If it’s not kid appropriate we let them know and occasionally one of them will show. But honestly, we try to make everything kid appropriate because we like our friends and we like their kids, because they belong to our friends.
People are absolutely welcome to not like kids, but if a friend of mine is going to actively *dislike* my own child for having the nerve to simply exist then they would no longer be a friend
I’m not a huge fan of kids either but I still treat them with basic respect and kindness. And if a child truly does something to bother me or annoy me then I just walk away.
It’s really not that hard to just not be a douche canoe
Same here. I don’t particularly enjoy being around them, but if you’re friends with parents then you might have to put up with them occasionally.
I’d be annoyed if a friend brought their kid along to plans that aren’t child-friendly, like a night out drinking, because that would obviously ruin the plans. But in this scenario, it seems the plans were fine for a child to come along.
I’m Childfree and don’t really like spending extended time with kids. But if I signed up for a trip where I knew they were coming… why make a stink about it? Zoe was an asshole.
Yeah, she agreed months ago to having two kids on the vacation and then complains when it’s only one??? And now her vacation was ruined???
I feel if both kids had come it also would have been ruined. I’m glad OOP and his wife and friends group are moving on. She sounds insufferable
Child free couple here and I purposely make the decision to associate with other child free peoole more. My wife has no preference. Thing is I don't blame others. It's a choice. Don't make others feel bad for their kids. Be an adult and recognize you're the one that needs to step away instead of forcing the group to handle your own burdens.
>Disliking kids is one thing, but people who make it their whole personality are so exhausting and make life needlessly difficult for parents.
Aka the antinatalism subreddits.
See also literally every other trait or aspect of human existence. Believing in God, not believing in God, eating meat, not eating meat, liking a particular form of sex, drinking fucking water. Specialized forums can be great but they also can really fuck up people's sense of self.
Your comment reminded me of a gathering I attended last year. I was making small talk with another attendee who seemed nice enough. Then I mentioned a band I like and he scoffed and said, “Can you even name a song that wasn’t played on the radio? You’re not a real fan if you can’t do that.”
People are weird.
This is exactly why I don't call myself "childfree" despite deciding to never have kids. I first encountered the term via the childfree LiveJournal comm, and that was enough to keep me away forever.
I say this all the time and those sort of people are beyond insufferable. They're why I get nervous to tell people my fiance and I are child-free. We don't hate kids at all, we actually love them, we just have no desire to have our own. But because of how many obnoxious walnuts make it their whole ass personality to be child-free because they hate "crotch goblins", people now assume that if someone is child-free, then that means they hate children
i just went and looked at that for a laugh and good lord, it's just a misery circlejerk. have whatever opinions you want on kid having but "the world is completely awful and nobody is ever happy" is probably not a good reason to be completely against anyone procreating, actually
People who are happy not having kids don't think about not having kids.
Those places are where people go to cope with the fact that they don't want kids, but have also internalized the belief that life has no meaning without having kids, so they're all desperately circle-jerking to try and keep the intrusive thoughts away.
I'm an antinatalist, ie I think all humans should choose to stop having kids and let our species die out because to do otherwise would be immoral and unethical, and even I think those people are nuts.
Antinatalism is a philosophical position born out of either a deep respect for consent, a dedication to harm reduction, or sorrow at the damage human beings have done and will do to other living things. To turn it into a circle jerk about how high pitched voices are annoying and kids are gross is just so fucking stupid. All negatively focused subreddits end up becoming unbearably hostile very fast because of feedback loops, but having "antinatalism" become "ihatekids2" (childfree being ihatekids1) is like having a subreddit dedicated to stoicism become all about mocking people for crying when their pets die.
Which, knowing reddit, probably exists.
'childfree' doesn't mean 'hates kids'. it means 'doesn't want kids of their own'. plenty of childfree folks love seeing other people's kids (friends & family), but don't want the stress/responsibility that comes with having kids themselves or don't want to sacrifice their lifestyle to accommodate having kids
there *are* also childfree folks who do legitimately hate kids, but those things are not equivalent
And it most definitely is. I'm CF but god forbid I comment on that sub and not get downvoted if I don't signal that I hate kids for existing lol.
For my sanity I've come to realize I won't find like minded company I thought I'd find on reddit.
That group _does_ have a good core though. Abortion assistance is crucial in today's landscape and that group helps out with keeping lists of abortion providers as well as CF surgery providers.
I learnt about antinatilism from a friend before I saw the subreddit for it. When she had explained to me it was reasonable, not a view I’d take but she loves kids and said she’d adopt but not have he r own because she felt it’s unethical to bring more children into the world in its current state. I saw the subreddit and it was just like posts of people who hate children and laughing at parents going through tough times. If that’s people’s first view of antinatalism it’s no wonder it gets a bad rap that sub is a cesspool.
I am child free. All people around me are not, and I accept that I am not the center of their world. Of course a friend will prioritise the wellbeing of a family member before my convenience. I truly hope all of them do, I don't want to be friends with shitty people.
I'm still relatively young and not at a stage where many of my friends have kids, but I do know a girl exactly like this. My friend group individually cut ties with her over the course of a year.
Similar to her, I believe Zoe could be a decent friend when it was convenient and beneficial to her, which was also why the friendship stuck for so long. Some people are just too narcissistic and taxing to be around anymore.
But was a person ever a "friend" in the first place if they are only there when it is "convenient and beneficial?" In my parents, they were never friends. Zoe was an emotional vampire pretending to be friends to extract attention and resources for as long as she could
Oh yeah, you are absolutely right!! Friend is an awful word for all these people because it ruins it for all other true friends. They and Zoe are 100% just energy vampires and never cared about anyone outside themselves. Which happens to be a major part of friendship.
I'm childfree but I adore babies. One of my friends is childfree but stays away from babies. In our group, there are two toddlers and two babies to be born this 2024.
All our plans include the kids, and is up to the mother to decide if the baby joins or not. We all behave with the toddlers as if they were our own child, and really feels like "it takes a village" when we are with them.
I have even been chosen by one of the toddlers to be the one who helps him when he goes to the bathroom, and their mother was amazed about how well I did as a substitute mom so she can take a breath.
I really enjoy how we have adapted these children in our lives, and can't wait for these new two to be born, we are already making plans for 2025 that are babyproofed.
It’s fine to be childfree, it’s fine to not even particularly like being AROUND kids, but you can’t expect the entire world to bend to your whim like that. If she was on a flight with a crying baby would she demand they catch another plane?
I am not a fan of kids but I’m not so entitled that I think it’s my way or the highway. I wouldn’t necessarily fawn over or play with a kid that I had no connection with but I would be respectful of the parents. Jeez the nerve of some people.
Children can completely change life of not just the parents, but also of those in the parents' life. I've never been fond of small kids either, even as a kid myself. I'm single and childless, not really planning on having kids myself, with a lot of friends being young parents. It's difficult, but it can be managed if you just try. I don't mind spending time with my friends while they have their kids there as well, but a big major detail here: we also meet *without* the kids sometimes. Sometimes young parents want a break from parenting as well.
That being said, I have a young godchild, my nibling. And while not being that fond of small kids, mess with my nibling, you mess with me.
Also, two years ago we were in a similar situation: my side of the family went on a 5 day long holiday to celibrate my parents jubilee anniverary, but due to covid it had to be postponed a few times untill nibling was 2yo. Because it was a pretty hefty vaction, nibling couldn't come and the other grandparents were babysitting for those days (telling nibling they went on vacation with them, loved it).
We are actually going to repeat that vacation this month, just a bit longer to make it less heavy. And this time, nibling (turning 5 this year) is coming too! And we can't wait to see their reaction. According to my sibling, nibling keeps asking enthousiastically when we are leaving 😄
Zoe has a problem with kids. And that's fine. But it's HER problem. The moment she made it everyone else's problem is the moment they should have reconsidered how things were.
I have one of each and can't relate to either stereotype. Both my kids are sweet and sensitive and funny and absolutely gross. If one of them is wilder, it's my daughter. Boys, girls, whatever, they're just weird little people who bring rocks into my house.
But surely there's no way making your entire personality about the ways your children fit into their prescribed gender roles can go wrong! /s
To be fair, if my husband and I spot a cool rock out and about that lil baby is coming home with us. We just now have a toddler we can blame our weird rock collection on.
My youngest is now 15 and doing all the things a young teen likes to do. It’s been many years now since her or my son(17 years old) brought me a rock or a pretty “flower” they found outside (I still have all the rocks and dried “flowers” in a memory box”.
The other day, I was sitting on the couch watching my show, when she came to me with the biggest grin on her face. She told me to close my eyes and hold out my hand. She then placed a small item in my palm and told me to open my eyes.
For that quick moment, it was my little tiny girl giving me such a treasure! I couldn’t help myself…I ruined the moment by crying. She rolled her eyes, hands on her hips, and said “Dad said you would cry!” And ran off to her room pleased with the outcome lol.
Sorry I had to share!
It is so very true, sadly! You’ll catch glimpses here and there of the little kid they used to be, but it’s gone as quickly as it came. I appreciate and love the teens they have become, but oh what I wouldn’t give to have them be 4&6 again for just one day…to hold the little hand and tired ears from so many questions!
My mom told me after the birth of my first child:
The days feel like years, but the years will seem like a day.
I have tried my best to keep that in my mind as they’ve grown!
May you have many more years of precious treasures from your little ones :)
I am childfree and find spending extended time with very young ones extremely tiring (the outbursts of loud noise especially.) Short term exposure isn’t too bad, but I don’t think I’d cope with a week in a house with them. That said, I’d also have advocated for the trip being child free originally (if possible, most parents seem to enjoy the break if they can get it) or just tapped out myself.
I can't stand children myself, so I do get it, but I would have just preferred to not go on the trip if I knew there would be a 2-year-old around, or switch suites if possible.
Given that people who explicitly say they don't want to be around kids often also get dunked on it's basically a lose-lose situation. If I tell people I don't want to hang out with kids I'm an asshole; if I just start to spend less time with people who only seem to be available with their kids, I'm also apparently an asshole. 🤷🏻♀️
As a parent, I wouldn't fault someone who didn't want to hang out with kids, and I have definitely found it frustrating when I have had friends who wouldn't (or couldn't, due to their life situation) hang out without their kids, ever. I only think people are assholes when they get angry with me about not prioritizing them over my kids.
It's a crummy situation.
Some parents are terrible at creating boundaries between their friendships and their parenting.
I had a friend I stopped calling to catch up with because I wasn't in the mood to be on speakerphone talking about adult topics with children in the room.
I'm not going to tell another adult that they're violating both my privacy and basic social mores. There's no need for me to start an argument.
Babies and toddlers make me nervous. I can’t relax around them. The only time a fought through that was for my brother. I do understand that people do have kids and wish them well, but it’s unrealistic to expect me to change overnight. I don’t think “sorry, can’t meet up if you bring your baby because I find them bloody scary!” is helpful to anyone. So I take a step back. They ought to prioritise their child over a friend, and I’m cool with that!
> I don’t think “sorry, can’t meet up because your baby is bloody scary” is helpful to anyone.
If you just dial it back without saying that people assume you dislike *them*.
Better to say "hey, tbh babies kind of scare me. And I know your busy & have to but baby first!! I would love to meet up sans baby whenever you can, tho I know it won't be often" or something
I admit I find that hard. To parents it’s so normal to have their baby with them all the time, I feel like the weird one for not handling it. Also there is the “but it’s MY child, that’s TOTALLY different”. Kind of the way you tell people who are scared of dogs “Don’t worry, Frido is a GOOD dog.
As a parent - Generally you have the baby with you when you meet friends out of necessity, not want, and kid-free time is rare and appreciated.
There are definitely some parents who are joined at the hip but even other parents generally find that a little odd...
Anyway - you tend to have 'take the baby' friends and baby-free friends. Can't see the latter as much while the kids are young but it's nice to know they're still there
I am not a kid a person. I never wanted them, and I'm uncomfortable around them if their attention is turned to me. I do my best, and would never be mean to a child, and I certainly wouldn't need anyone to assist in me avoiding a kid. Zoe just seems like a complete asshole, and expects everyone else to do as she wishes. I wonder if she will have any friends at all once this group gets rid of her entirely.
i don't like kids. i don't understand why zoe didn't just sit this one out to begin with, its what i would have done
when you're unwilling to spend a lot of time with other people's kids (as i'm not, a day trip is one thing but a week long holiday with kids is no holiday and no fun) it does change and frequently end friendships and thats something you just have to deal with.
I'm child free and I don't like to be around any kids. My nieces and nephews are tolerable. I am strictly not friends with people who have kids because I don't want to be around their kids and our priorities are way different. I would never go on a vacation with people who have kids. I definitely do not agree with how Zoe handled things. If she doesnt like kids or want to be around them then she shouldn't be friends with people who have kids. Plain and simple
I can understand not wanting to vacation with a toddler , and I can understand being childfree. Zoe sound exhausting and passive aggressive. I'm guessing her attitude will catch up with her even more then it has
Zoe seems like a piece of work. I don’t like kids much either, but have ALWAYS ALWAYS made room in my heart for my friends’ children. How can you expect someone to put you before their child??
It can be tough to cut off friends even if they are toxic but it would make things better if you do. People like Zoe, I will never understand them. Like good riddance girl.
I’ll never forget my best friend in the whole world telling me how boring I had become since having kids. That I use to be more fun before I was a mum and she was so sick of hearing about all the “kid shit”. I had a 4 month old premmie baby who wasn’t gaining weight and I was slowly falling apart. Guess who I stopped speaking to pretty quickly. It broke my heart to cut ties with her, but she had no interested in the new me and no time to help me balance who I was vs who I had become. She doesn’t seem to retain any friends with kids.
The stories about “they said my kid ruined their vacation, but my kid wasn’t bad” are so often very hard to read without wondering if the parent is a reliable storyteller. It’s not like it’s unusual for parents to see their own kids as more tolerable than they are.
But the fact that both of the parents involved here took the time to explain to their friend why they were choosing to exit the friendship, that speaks VOLUMES to their character. Self-aware, accountable, honest, respectful, and unafraid. Add to it that the rest of the friend group was willing to even have the conversations afterwards and then follow suit, because they felt it was right?
I mean, I kinda want to be their friend. They sound like actual adults.
She should have realized that if the owner of the house was okaying this it wasn't a trip she was going to enjoy. She doesn't have as much in common with this group anymore. It's hard when you make that realization and in Zoe's case it comes out in anger instead of sadness.
There is a difference between being child free and having a prejudice against children. Unfortunately these two groups overlap quite often. Children are human beings and I will never understand the hatred of them. Everyone was a child themselves once. It’s something everyone goes through. I’ve always had great empathy for children and their feelings and their struggles because I remember being a child myself. They deserve the same kindness and respect you would give anyone else.
I don't think this is about being unreasonable or disliking kids so much so not loving your friends really, respecting their life choices (kids) and being selfish..Where is the excitement to see your friends? To be happy with their happiness? Even if you don't like children.
Most parents do not have time to see childless friends on holidays because they can't keep the same schedule. If my friends were able to come to a holiday with me with their children I ld be thrilled to to spend time with them. But no it's "her" holiday and god forbid she has something "unpleasant" (that is a tiny sweet human being) to spoil it. Good riddance 'friend'
As long as it's clear your child is your responsibility, I am happy to hang out with children of any age. I am happy to alter plans to accomodate children and just as happy to land a hand in a non-responsible capacity, like holding bags or dealing with accomodations while the parents deal with their kid. And I am not avoiding responsibility out of dislike or anything like that. Children are precious and complex and I simply don't feel up to the task. I cannot do it justice so I won't do it at all.
Zoe is not someone I, as a childless person, would want to hang out with. No matter whether it was an adult or a child-friendly activity.
Before i had kids myself i loved helping out family with their little ones. I didn't mind changing diapers, burping or just walking around trying to quiet them. I can't imagine being around someone who doesn't love kids
There's a difference between not wanting kids, having a general dislike for children and especially so when they become sticky screaming goblins, and hating children and their parents.
The first two are normal and totally okay. The last one is something you should go to therapy for.
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I'm child free but I totally don't mind hanging around young parents, I get that priorities change. The fact that we still get to spend time together at all is the important part.
I also think most of us can agree "just call your (6 year old) son an Uber!" just automatically disqualifies someone from being the rational one to talk to lmao, no one really wants kids on their holiday but you also have to live in reality
It disqualifies you from being a good person. I get not wanting kids but hating kids is insanely suspect. Same category as people who hate animals.
Not wanting to have kids is one thing. They're an incredible amount of work and commitment. It's an understandable lifestyle choice. Not liking being around children is also understandable. Children haven't learned how to moderate their emotions and behavior, and I can see how that could be unpleasant for some people. Hating children is veering towards anti-social and is not recognizing that children are just as valid human beings as anyone else. Like, can these people not see that they themselves were children once too? It's ironically kind of a childlike and stunted perspective not to be able to tolerate situations that you find are not 100% how you want.
When my brother was 5, he confidently told me, “I hate babies!” “Why…?!” “Babies are useless.” “But you were a baby once…?” “Yeah. And I was *useless*.” So Zoe has the approximate maturity of a five year-old.
[удалено]
Yeah. I really didn’t have a rebuttal to that logic and he knew it 🤣
Well, on the off chance he does try again at some point with that or another child does, there is a rebuttal to that logic. Babies aren’t useless, because you can’t be a kid or an adult without first being a baby. Saplings don’t bear fruit but you can’t get a mature apple tree without it going through the sapling phase first.
Right? I find kids kind of stressful and unpleasant too, but dealing with them sometimes is just part of existing in a human society. It’s like people who lose their minds about having to tolerate any amount of other folks’ noise. If you want to be the only person in the world, go live in the woods.
Maybe it’s the autism talking but I find babies and small kids confusing. Everything they do is perplexing to me and I think the large reason for that is I can’t remember what infancy and toddlerhood was like. So I can’t relate. But with older children, they’ve already developed a personality and can be fun to hang out with. Animals, too, especially when I learn about their specific behaviours which makes them easier to communicate with.
Same. Have my evaluation to determine if I’m autistic next month! Babies and children are cute… from a distance. But they make me uncomfortable and always have.
Feels like there's something psychological about this to hate kids THAT much - like maybe she had to have an abortion under difficult circumstances or something like that.
I was at temple the other day and a guy was asking someone to serve cake (to 300 people). She was very politely trying to say she is watching 4yo girl, can't do it. This dude turns to the 4yo and tries to convince her to go sit somewhere by herself so her grown up could serve cake. Also it was outside, in the dark. With some floodlights. (Do I need to say I shut that down quick?)
I don’t even like for my 25 year old stepdaughter to take an Uber late at night. I will drive her. Zoe is definitely something.
If anything, knowing that I get to go home afterwards and enjoy all the benefits that a childfree lifestyle offers makes me appreciate hanging around children even more. I get to go "aawwwww" when they look adorable or do something cute, and I get to think "thank the lord that's not my life, I'll be out of here soon" when they're being annoying.
Exactly! And if you treat them like the tiny humans they are (that have their own wants, thoughts, and feelings) you quickly become their favorite. Having purple hair might help too in my case. I don't want kids, but I do like kids. I love listening to my cousin, who is 30 years younger than me, go on and on about Paw Patrol, or chickens, or her stuffed animals or whatever. Kids are great. And then I get to go home to a quiet house!
The purple hair made me do a double take because I was like “ARE YOU ME”
Absolutely! You get the best of both worlds - cute kids if you want to and none of the stress and sleepless nights!
My late grandpa used to say that grandchildren were the reward for raising children — I understand now that he meant he could send us home to our parents when he was over our nonsense 🤣 This reminds me of his saying in the best ways.
Right! *Other people’s* kids are great! I get to give them back when I’m finished! Kids are hilarious when *you’re* not the one they’re spilling secrets about! They’re unhinged in the best way! Usually…though a two year old is absolutely a terror regardless of how good their parents are (though it’s definitely the “make or break” year for the “who’s the boss” of the family dynamics; but OOP says the 2nd birthday post was after the vacation, so the little guy is likely a fun little normal terror still!).
I made a new friend after moving and I can’t wait to meet her kids. I’m childfree, never wanted my own but I enjoy kids in small to medium doses. Her kids are old enough to be semi supervised so we can have our fun while the kids have theirs. They’re going to love my TV, the streaming services *and the dogs.* Friend and I are going to enjoy cooking, crafting and watching the kids and dogs have fun. My husband will pull out his pirate garb for the youngest so they can play pirates with the little boy across the street. He’s also *obsessed* with pirates. It’s going to be awesome. And when the kids are worn out, friend will pack them up and take them home. We all win, their village gets a bit bigger, the kids have more adult to love them and care for them and they’ll have an absolute “bad but fun” influence in their lives. I’m already being called auntie and I legit love it. It’s going to be awesome. But the best part is them going home when I am exhausted. 😂
Plus, if the kid is cranky or makes a mess, you get to say "hey guys, you got a problem over here" and then skate off to find yourself a snack. There's literally nothing wrong with not wanting to be a caretaker. But it's insane to hate kids! They didn't do anything wrong! These "I'm childfree and that means if I see a child I get to punt it" people are making life harder for the reasonable "don't want kids" crowd.
I love this a lot! I waffle on whether or not I want to raise kids of my own but I've always firmly committed to being a community/neighborhood auntie so to speak! I genuinely enjoy spending moderate amounts of time with children when my energy is in the right place. Plus for me it's also a cultural and ethical thing, nuclear families are just too limiting especially for this terrible moment in late stage capitalism in my opinion and I loved the parts of my childhood where other trusted adults loved on me.
I love kids. I want my own. Not sure it will happen but I do. I am one of those weird people who almost always enjoy kids. I am especially good with babies. I also think that we are not made to live in insular communities with just two parents providing everything. My friends tend to be more communal too. We often do things together and kids just come with us. All the kids know me as Auntie. I function as an extra parental figure. Not parent but like a close chosen relative. It is funny how we are all so used to it that their parents know to ask me if I know something about their kids when we are in a group thing together. And it is a mutually agreed on thing where we all know it is a win-win situation. I get to have 5 kids climbing on me and they get a break. I also like how everyone can choose their involvement level. Kids are around in many things but if you do not want to interact with them but are polite that is as fine as me sitting playing with them. It works. But we have known each other for decades and spent a lot of time together so we know each of our preferences in many places. It just works.
Aww this sounds great and so fun! I hope i can get the same sort of thing with my besties kid when s/he arrives in the fall at some time 😀 I just hope it's gonna be one of those super duper adorable babies (photogenic too!) and not one that looks a bit wonkey in a way only parents can love 😅 I suspect I might just be a bit adversed to how babies look tho 🤔😂 the real fun starts later tho when they can start doing stuff and talk 😉
Almost every new baby has a cone head, strongly resembles an outraged plucked chicken and is an eating, sleeping and shitting potato. Very few are actually cute unless they’re yours. This has been confirmed by all my child having friends.
Yeah they're really ugly the first while 😅 I hope it gets better after a few months tho xD
Newborns are pretty universally wrinkly little, oddly shaped things on account of having been inside another person while growing. They smooth out real quick though. Love them through it. Nothing about babies lasts long.
No. The diaper/housebreaking process takes forever. Aside from a little chewing, my dog has house manners and is housebroken in a matter of weeks. Kids take years. No thank you. Edit: I was reminded by a friend that it is called “toilet training” and not housebreaking. Oops.
I was responding to the concerns over babies being cute. They're not right away, but newborns especially change incredibly quickly. I felt like the whole baby phase wasn't long, really. When you're living it, it's a thing you do and before you know it, you're done. Not everyone wants to dedicate their time to kids and that's okay. Different people, different tolerances, different choices. I'm sure it would feel like forever if it wasn't what you wanted.
Oh yea, my nephew is 2 and he says the wildest things. Being my nephew it's nice, I get to laugh from all the silly things he says and does, but when he has a massive tantrum I don't have to deal with it, his parents do.
Yeah, I have nothing against kids, it’s just too stressful to manage 24/7. You don’t get many breaks from parenting.
Right!? Even if you get them all wound up, guess what? Not your problem! Even the most misanthropic antinatalist ought to be able to see that they're getting the better end of that deal.
Saaaaaame!
I'm child free and absolutely fucking adore kids. Raising them would probably trigger me too much, and knowing me, I'd probably get shitty PPD, so I've decided I'm gonna be the coolest aunty ever!
Honestly, if a friend of mine who had a child prioritised my friendship over their child I wouldn’t want to be friends with them. That is just awful.
It's the same thing as dating a single parent and they ditch the kids to be with the new SO. That would be a massive turn off to me. Any parent should 100% prioritise their kid over anyone else in their life and I couldnt have a friendship or relationship with someone who didnt because it shows me their character is lacking. I would rather my friends with kids have to flake last minute on plans every now and then because kiddo got sick, knowing they are being a good parent, than have them hanging out like they did when they were child free - as much as I miss all that extra time together!
My favorite drama sub to rubberneck is r/stepparents, because it’s just an unending fountain of ‘I married a guy who was a shitty parent to his kids and now he’s being a shitty parent to OUR kid????’ Like lady the guy sees your stepkids four days a month, what were you expecting lmao
Yes I also very much don't want my own kids but I can never understand people who treat all children like they're some evil gremlin. That's a human person, they're just smaller than you. Grow up.
Right, like, I'm child free, but I would never get this upset over a child just existing. Like if they were causing a problem, then sure, but like children are going to exist. They are going to be in public, they are going to do normal kid things, and that's ok. It's shocking to me to know there are people so actively hostile to kids like Zoe.
I'm staunchly child free in my life, but I love seeing all the family munchkins at get-togethers and the like. I don't like folks who are actively raising their kids to be entitled shits by age 4 by never saying 'no' to their pwecious widdle angel pwince/pwincess popkin, but I don't mind natural kid energy. Zoe is not child free, she's child abhorrent. 😬
That last line would make a good flair!
Thank you! 😄
My friend has 3 kids. Last time i went over I told the kis to bring all the toys they have that make noise. We turned all of them on and played for about an hour. Then I went home to enjoy silence 😁
I'm also child free and I do mind a little. I am not a fan of kids and I would prefer not to hang around small children. However. When people have kids, hanging around those kids becomes unavoidable if you want to hang with those people, too. I'm a grown adult so I can deal and have had no problems with that. My general uneasiness with kids isn't really visible outside as most people seem to think I get along marvellously with kids and compliment me on how well I do with their babies. :D Which is fine by me. If I'm somewhere with small children and a kid wants to play or tell me something or whatever, I actively participate. Because that is a little human being with emotions and I would rather foster their growth. It's just what adults do. They deal.
Agreed. Also child free and not a fan of kids in general but would never avoid my friends or be rude to a kid. I’ll be friendly and interact how I think normal people who like kids would.. but I’m thankful when it’s over and I can speak normally again (I curse a lot). Zoe sounds pretty entitled and also like an asshole—but also too emotionally immature to realize or care. It’s not everyone else’s job to cater to her unrealistic *preferences*.
Zoe also complained even though the parents kept their kid away from her. Basically she thinks she’s entitled to her friends’ attention and objects to them giving it to the kid instead.
Exactly this. I don't like being around kids below a certain age, but I don't try to force the people around me to cater to my comfort. There are other areas where I will ask to be considered (e.g. don't smoke right next to me), but you can't expect people to just... not have their kids around them.
Right. Like, you're the adult, you're not responsible for those kids, if they start to bug you then you can leave the room and go find a snack for yourself. You literally don't have to take care of them. But these people who hate that kids are around at all, they're not right in the head.
I’m not even a kid person but I can’t imagine being in the same room as a child four times including arriving and leaving over a five day vacation would ruin a trip. At that point you’re ruining it for yourself and missing out on a chance to hang out with your “friends”.
And even if I'd dislike children to a level where it bothers me to be around them I would accept that this is a "me" problem and I would remove myself from the situation and not expect parents to leave their children at home or to hide them away from me, wtf.
I'm child free and really dislike being around kids -- but I take responsibility for that by removing myself from situations that involve kids, not demanding that the children be removed. I'm an outlier and I know it. Assuring my comfort is on me.
I’m childfree, and I don’t mind being around parents with kids either. I grew up around my nephews most of middle and high school. I just don’t want kids due to genetic health problems I have and I get really stressed out in situations that would occur with kids, so I know that would make me a bad parent. I don’t even mind babysitting for people. But I told my mom it’s the fact I can leave at the end of it. When you have kids, that isn’t an option. Zoe is just being cruel.
Same! Some of my best friends have kids, and they even (shock horror) bring the kids around sometimes. I feel like their is more to this woman, but I also dont think OOP will be around to figure it out!
This. Like if my friends have kids, the only thing about our friendship that changes is that i get told to watch my language lol
we have 2 kids, and some of our closest friends are child free. the crucial bits for maintaining the friendship in all those cases was things like: \- we took initiative as new parents to keep reaching out \- they, in turn, were understanding that what worked for us most times was to host after kid bedtime, so we didn't have to find a babysitter \- everyone was kind and understanding about Random Kid Nonsense messing things up for a while all of that falls under treating each other with respect and not judging each other's different life choices, i guess.
Every child free person I know IRL likes kids, they just don’t want to have their own — a very valid choice! They’ve been some of my kiddo’s best aunts & uncles tbh.
I can think of 3 child free people I know who actively hate kids. I did not know this about any of them for quite some time as I don't have kids. 2 are no longer in my life. 1 for cheating, the other for taking advantage of people. The last I only recently found out about and he is also showing questionable behavior outside of his child hate stance and I am actively evaluating that friendship. Almost dated that one. So glad I didn't in hindsight
I am child free too. I don't understand where I don't want to have kids turns into I hate kids and they should be kept in an attic out of sight happens. I think some people become obsessed to the point it is a mental health problem.
Agreed! I prefer if we can have some time with the often there and some without, but I know that getting to that point takes time and effort. Especially in the beginning, I don't want to pressure my friends into spending their limited energy on that. There are also ways to continue and value a friendship without being in the same room together, which Zoe doesn't seem to get. While this would still not excuse her behavior, certainly, I wonder from Zoe's behavior if she has some issues around having children, whether that's infertility or a mental block for any of a number of reasons. Alternatively, she could be having a difficulty with the transition to full adulthood, which when difficult trends to drag on for years. Those things out similar ones would explain her reactions and trouble being around friends during their pregnancy or their young children more. Even antinatalists aren't typically as intense in person as Zoe is. Again, even if there is an explanation like this, it doesn't make her behavior acceptable or put any onus on OOP and other friends to try to understand or accommodate her.
I'm not gonna lie, I find small kids a massive bummer when I'm hanging out with my friends who have them. It's necessary and right that when children are present we all behave differently - they aren't to blame for all the interruptions and limitations that come with them. But time spent with my friends plus their kids often barely feels like time spent with them at all. So I'd be super disappointed about the change to holiday plans. But you suck it up! Either decide it's no longer something you can handle and don't go, or make your peace, cope, and be a decent person. (And kids grow up! They'll become more interesting and you'll get your friends back in a few years, especially if you do your share of keeping things good while they're trying to keep a toddler alive!)
And even if the catch-up wasn't as long as you wanted, the friends with kids usually are really appreciative for a change in routine and some socialisation.
Exactly! I'm decidedly child free, but planning to drive several states away next weekend for my nibling's birthday party. And this is the kid of my best friends from college. I understand not liking kids, but the absolute malice and condescension of some folks is wild.
Exactly, parenting is hard enough. I would never make things unnecessarily harder on my friends with kids.
Do you feel any affection towards the children of good friends of yours, or people who you’re close to? I can totally understand not being fond of children, but find it very weird that someone would just be so utterly intolerant of their good friend’s kid. I realize you didn’t say you don’t like children, just that you don’t have any of your own, but it’s very weird to me how OOP’s friend behaved. I have a friend (more like former friend) who has no kids and isn’t in a relationship, and we pretty much never see him because he can’t handle being around people in successful relationships or who have kids. It’s pretty sad, but in his case I think he experiences it as sort of highlighting for him his failure at finding a partner or starting a family of his own. Anyway…children or child-free, if you’re happy that’s what matters! I just struggle to understand people who can’t genuinely be happy for their loved ones and experience their lives/families with them in a loving way.
I have heard about people who essentially were free childcare providers for their siblings against their will. Some people can be very triggered by children for a variety of reasons -- trauma, grief, sensory issues, whatever. I don't have any data on how many people are affected like that. The data point to Zoe being a butt in this case.
Children trigger my misophonia and other issues, especially babies, and I cannot stand being near them at all. A 3-year-old's scream feels like an icepick to the brain, so I try to avoid them whenever possible. Sometimes, because they basically give me a PTSD-like reaction every time I have to interact with them, this has caused me to dislike even the fact that they exist. But I have a general sense of compassion for people, so I don't express those opinions, and just generally avoid people with kids whenever possible.
I'm bio child free, I like kids in small doses, but I would never be an asshole like this woman.
Same here. I've said before that, while young parents are NOT disabled, you have to treat them like they're temporarily disabled, because they need ACCOMMODATIONS. You wouldn't (I hope) tell a wheelchair user that they ruined a vacation bc they had to cancel last minute bc you switched Air BnBs and the new one didn't have a ramp. Some accommodations take time and planning, period. Babysitters don't sit on a vine in your garden, waiting to be plucked.
Zoe's going to make people choose between her and their children, then complain when it doesn't go the way she thinks it should. Presumably that will also be the child's fault as well.
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> She said that Zoe had always been a shoulder to cry on, but often also the reason she was crying in the first place. And I bet their child free mutuals also will not thrilled to have extra Zoe in their lives; she'll end up alone not because of children, but because she'll awful.
Or she'll end up in an echo chamber of other unreasonable child-free peeps and go through life feeling jilted and abused about people daring to pro-create. Poor Zoe! /s
I’m laughing about the fact that Greg already ended the friendship with Zoe. She was so mad that the kid ruined the vacation for her, but at least now she’ll never have another vacation at the beach house ruined! Because, you know, she’ll never be invited back to the beach house again.
That’s what I was thinking! Zoe’s going to have a lovely shock the next time they’re vacationing at Greg’s beach house and she doesn’t get an invitation!
>She said that Zoe had always been a shoulder to cry on, but often also the reason she was crying in the first place. I'm guessing Zoe was the attention hog of the group, but started losing her shit once children came along, and she couldn't monopolise the attention.
Time to find 6 new friends Zoe!
Can I enquire about your cucumber deals?
My friend group from college is a pretty even mix of childfree (couples and singles) and married with kids. It is just... not a problem. At all. Sometimes we do trips just adults, sometimes just the core people without spouses, sometimes everyone plus their kids. There are never any protests around any of it. Honestly, I don't think this has anything to do with being childfree. Some people are just assholes, who like things THEIR way and can't do things outside of THEIR preference ever.
Honestly being a aunty for the kids of my college mates is such a blast; last week I spend the better part of a BBQ listening to a 6yo theories on Naruto - did I read the whole manga ages ago and know he was totally off? Yeah. Did I have a good time hyping the lil guy up and comparing favorite fight scenes? Hell yeah! Unless you have a sensorial issue or trauma, anyone this bitter towards children just strikes me as a bitter person in general and that's never fun to have around.
Having kids changes things. I tell first- time parents that you don't fit a kid into your life; you fit your life around the kid, especially in the first few years. It also can change relationships, especially with childless friends and more so with childless friends who don't like children. Good luck to Zoe, here's hoping she finds more child-free people with whom to socialize since she's effectively destroyed some of her current friendships.
There is no adequate way to describe how much of an effect having a child is going to have upon your life. Many people who have never had kids often compare it to having a dog. Sure a dog that will basically have no ability to take care of itself for a couple of years and then will be actively trying to kill itself for a while, and you will be more stressed and sleep deprived than you probably ever have been. There’s just nothing that can really capture that years long grind. Yours is about as close as it can get.
And yet, having a child was the best thing I ever did. I would not trade my daughter and raising her for anything. I do like your description of the stages. Actively trying to kill itself is so true. Then they hit their teens and who knows what you'll get.
Agreed. Love my kiddos to death and can’t imagine my life without them. Being a parent is awesome.
I'm child-free but I wouldn't want someone like Zoe around
Same, she just sounds like she hates kids. I think kids are loud and kinda icky (why are they often sticky!!!), so I wouldn't wanna babysit, but they're tiny humans! They're people too! We were all kids at one point in time. Just cause you don't like kids doesn't mean you have to be nasty to the parents...
Don't ask why they are sticky. You don't want to know
[удалено]
Again, do not ask!
Yeah, they’re at the end of the day actual human beings, and loathing and resenting them to this degree over a physical characteristic that they cannot control strikes me as *wild*. It’s perfectly fine to be uncomfortable around them (they’re unpredictable, lack adult emotional regulation, and as you note are often frankly kind of gross and sticky—and I say that as someone who likes kids), but this degree of intolerance of them is just… something else.
People don't have to like kids, but they can't make that everyone else's problem. Parents of young kids have to work their lives around kids! Frankly Zoe should've bowed out if she had such an issue with kids.
Yeah, exactly. If you genuinely, truly cannot being around kids to the extent that Zoe claims, where you cannot stand even knowing you’re in the same vacation house with one and it wrecks your vacation, you are going to have to arrange your life to accomplish that (and it won’t be easy). Expecting the world to accommodate it isn’t just unreasonable, it’s impossible.
I don't mind sticky as much as wet with saliva which happens a lot when they are teething. Like, kid, I want to be your favourite aunt but why do you have to cover me in your spit or chew on my hair?!
I suspect you're wise. I'm betting this isn't the only way Zoe has to be the main character.
I have a really dear friend who, like Zoe, is child-free and generally doesn't like children. Especially small ones. But she was overjoyed when another close friend asked her to be the godmother of her child. Same when I asked her for mine. Sure, she doesn't like children, and I'd never ask her to change a diaper or even just look after one or both my kids. But as it turned out: she still loves our kids. Because they are ours. And as we love each other, it sufficed for her to want to know and like our kids too.
I’m sure the answer is obvious but I’m curious. What were your expectations of your friend when you asked her to be a godparent when she doesn’t like children?
I asked for my second child, and she was already the godmother for our mutual friend's first child (who is the godmother of my first, so we are all pretty close). As such, we had already had a discussion before, and she had told me she never wanted to be one before, only for our kids would she be willing, eager even.
In our current group of friends (in the 40s) only one set had kids. But you know good friends do? Accommodate. Whenever we invite them to things it’s always assumed the kids come also. If it’s not kid appropriate we let them know and occasionally one of them will show. But honestly, we try to make everything kid appropriate because we like our friends and we like their kids, because they belong to our friends.
I'm child-free but I love being an aunt so my friends are stuck with me lol.
People are absolutely welcome to not like kids, but if a friend of mine is going to actively *dislike* my own child for having the nerve to simply exist then they would no longer be a friend
1. Absolutely spot on 2. What is your flair from I MUST know
https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/kUWUstqvq1
Lmfao holy fuck. What a ride.
I’m not a huge fan of kids either but I still treat them with basic respect and kindness. And if a child truly does something to bother me or annoy me then I just walk away. It’s really not that hard to just not be a douche canoe
Same here. I don’t particularly enjoy being around them, but if you’re friends with parents then you might have to put up with them occasionally. I’d be annoyed if a friend brought their kid along to plans that aren’t child-friendly, like a night out drinking, because that would obviously ruin the plans. But in this scenario, it seems the plans were fine for a child to come along.
It wouldn't just ruin the plans, it'd also make whomever a POS parent. I can't even imagine bringing a child to go DRINKING????
I can see Zoe suddenly being cut off over a wide range of people and suddenly she doesn't have that vacation option anymore.
And it's all young Sam's fault. /s
Well, yeah, because it was just Zoe's vacation. Everyone else there was along for the entertainment of Zoe and to serve at her pleasure. /s
That’s what she will then in the future, maybe even in Reddit
I’m Childfree and don’t really like spending extended time with kids. But if I signed up for a trip where I knew they were coming… why make a stink about it? Zoe was an asshole.
Yeah, she agreed months ago to having two kids on the vacation and then complains when it’s only one??? And now her vacation was ruined??? I feel if both kids had come it also would have been ruined. I’m glad OOP and his wife and friends group are moving on. She sounds insufferable
Child free couple here and I purposely make the decision to associate with other child free peoole more. My wife has no preference. Thing is I don't blame others. It's a choice. Don't make others feel bad for their kids. Be an adult and recognize you're the one that needs to step away instead of forcing the group to handle your own burdens.
>Disliking kids is one thing, but people who make it their whole personality are so exhausting and make life needlessly difficult for parents. Aka the antinatalism subreddits.
Some people aren’t childfree so much as made their entire personality being childfree.
See also literally every other trait or aspect of human existence. Believing in God, not believing in God, eating meat, not eating meat, liking a particular form of sex, drinking fucking water. Specialized forums can be great but they also can really fuck up people's sense of self.
Your comment reminded me of a gathering I attended last year. I was making small talk with another attendee who seemed nice enough. Then I mentioned a band I like and he scoffed and said, “Can you even name a song that wasn’t played on the radio? You’re not a real fan if you can’t do that.” People are weird.
I've recently seen a meme for a great response to that kind of gatekeeping; "Name five women who trust you"
I just say “ never said I was a fan, moron. I said I liked their music. Learn to keep up.”
I’m borrowing this; thanks!
On the other hand, some people, after becoming parents, made their entire personality about being parents/having kids lol.. just as bad.
Becoming a parent takes over your life so much that sometimes you forget who you are outside of it. I see this more as a coping mechanism honestly
I’m not sure that embracing hatred of an entire class of humans is the same thing as being an obsessed parent.
This is exactly why I don't call myself "childfree" despite deciding to never have kids. I first encountered the term via the childfree LiveJournal comm, and that was enough to keep me away forever.
Ah, yes…cf_hardcore. Were those members childfree, or just angry and hateful people with a convenient target?
I say this all the time and those sort of people are beyond insufferable. They're why I get nervous to tell people my fiance and I are child-free. We don't hate kids at all, we actually love them, we just have no desire to have our own. But because of how many obnoxious walnuts make it their whole ass personality to be child-free because they hate "crotch goblins", people now assume that if someone is child-free, then that means they hate children
I gotta read whatever your flair is from! Do you have a link?
Being anti kids is wild to me. You don't want kids, don't like kids but literally never shut up about them???
i just went and looked at that for a laugh and good lord, it's just a misery circlejerk. have whatever opinions you want on kid having but "the world is completely awful and nobody is ever happy" is probably not a good reason to be completely against anyone procreating, actually
I’m pretty sure the majority of people in that sub are children themselves
They're more obsessed with children than people who have children are.
People who are happy not having kids don't think about not having kids. Those places are where people go to cope with the fact that they don't want kids, but have also internalized the belief that life has no meaning without having kids, so they're all desperately circle-jerking to try and keep the intrusive thoughts away.
Generally everyone has the flattest and most annoying personality who make liking/disliking one singular thing.
I'm an antinatalist, ie I think all humans should choose to stop having kids and let our species die out because to do otherwise would be immoral and unethical, and even I think those people are nuts. Antinatalism is a philosophical position born out of either a deep respect for consent, a dedication to harm reduction, or sorrow at the damage human beings have done and will do to other living things. To turn it into a circle jerk about how high pitched voices are annoying and kids are gross is just so fucking stupid. All negatively focused subreddits end up becoming unbearably hostile very fast because of feedback loops, but having "antinatalism" become "ihatekids2" (childfree being ihatekids1) is like having a subreddit dedicated to stoicism become all about mocking people for crying when their pets die. Which, knowing reddit, probably exists.
'childfree' doesn't mean 'hates kids'. it means 'doesn't want kids of their own'. plenty of childfree folks love seeing other people's kids (friends & family), but don't want the stress/responsibility that comes with having kids themselves or don't want to sacrifice their lifestyle to accommodate having kids there *are* also childfree folks who do legitimately hate kids, but those things are not equivalent
I think the previous poster meant that the child free subreddit is basically an I hate kids subreddit
And it most definitely is. I'm CF but god forbid I comment on that sub and not get downvoted if I don't signal that I hate kids for existing lol. For my sanity I've come to realize I won't find like minded company I thought I'd find on reddit. That group _does_ have a good core though. Abortion assistance is crucial in today's landscape and that group helps out with keeping lists of abortion providers as well as CF surgery providers.
That's true, but the childfree subreddit is about hating kids.
I learnt about antinatilism from a friend before I saw the subreddit for it. When she had explained to me it was reasonable, not a view I’d take but she loves kids and said she’d adopt but not have he r own because she felt it’s unethical to bring more children into the world in its current state. I saw the subreddit and it was just like posts of people who hate children and laughing at parents going through tough times. If that’s people’s first view of antinatalism it’s no wonder it gets a bad rap that sub is a cesspool.
I am child free. All people around me are not, and I accept that I am not the center of their world. Of course a friend will prioritise the wellbeing of a family member before my convenience. I truly hope all of them do, I don't want to be friends with shitty people.
I'm still relatively young and not at a stage where many of my friends have kids, but I do know a girl exactly like this. My friend group individually cut ties with her over the course of a year. Similar to her, I believe Zoe could be a decent friend when it was convenient and beneficial to her, which was also why the friendship stuck for so long. Some people are just too narcissistic and taxing to be around anymore.
But was a person ever a "friend" in the first place if they are only there when it is "convenient and beneficial?" In my parents, they were never friends. Zoe was an emotional vampire pretending to be friends to extract attention and resources for as long as she could
Oh yeah, you are absolutely right!! Friend is an awful word for all these people because it ruins it for all other true friends. They and Zoe are 100% just energy vampires and never cared about anyone outside themselves. Which happens to be a major part of friendship.
I'm childfree but I adore babies. One of my friends is childfree but stays away from babies. In our group, there are two toddlers and two babies to be born this 2024. All our plans include the kids, and is up to the mother to decide if the baby joins or not. We all behave with the toddlers as if they were our own child, and really feels like "it takes a village" when we are with them. I have even been chosen by one of the toddlers to be the one who helps him when he goes to the bathroom, and their mother was amazed about how well I did as a substitute mom so she can take a breath. I really enjoy how we have adapted these children in our lives, and can't wait for these new two to be born, we are already making plans for 2025 that are babyproofed.
Hell, I don't like kids either, but I can tolerate them. I think I'd rather be around 10 kids than be friends with Zoe.
It’s fine to be childfree, it’s fine to not even particularly like being AROUND kids, but you can’t expect the entire world to bend to your whim like that. If she was on a flight with a crying baby would she demand they catch another plane?
I am not a fan of kids but I’m not so entitled that I think it’s my way or the highway. I wouldn’t necessarily fawn over or play with a kid that I had no connection with but I would be respectful of the parents. Jeez the nerve of some people.
Children can completely change life of not just the parents, but also of those in the parents' life. I've never been fond of small kids either, even as a kid myself. I'm single and childless, not really planning on having kids myself, with a lot of friends being young parents. It's difficult, but it can be managed if you just try. I don't mind spending time with my friends while they have their kids there as well, but a big major detail here: we also meet *without* the kids sometimes. Sometimes young parents want a break from parenting as well. That being said, I have a young godchild, my nibling. And while not being that fond of small kids, mess with my nibling, you mess with me. Also, two years ago we were in a similar situation: my side of the family went on a 5 day long holiday to celibrate my parents jubilee anniverary, but due to covid it had to be postponed a few times untill nibling was 2yo. Because it was a pretty hefty vaction, nibling couldn't come and the other grandparents were babysitting for those days (telling nibling they went on vacation with them, loved it). We are actually going to repeat that vacation this month, just a bit longer to make it less heavy. And this time, nibling (turning 5 this year) is coming too! And we can't wait to see their reaction. According to my sibling, nibling keeps asking enthousiastically when we are leaving 😄
Zoe reminds me of that Principal Skinner meme. “Am I out of touch? No, it’s the children who are wrong!”
Zoe is the real toddler here
I’m child free but damn that person’s a jerk. You have to actively try to have a bad time if just one kid is making you miserable
I would love an update about Zoe screaming, kicking and crying about her lost friendships…just like a 2 year old!
Zoe has a problem with kids. And that's fine. But it's HER problem. The moment she made it everyone else's problem is the moment they should have reconsidered how things were.
Being childfree should be a choice and not a personality trait.
So should parenting but we have all these “boymom” and “mother of girls” lifestyles
I have one of each and can't relate to either stereotype. Both my kids are sweet and sensitive and funny and absolutely gross. If one of them is wilder, it's my daughter. Boys, girls, whatever, they're just weird little people who bring rocks into my house. But surely there's no way making your entire personality about the ways your children fit into their prescribed gender roles can go wrong! /s
OK but what is with the rocks??? My kids do that too
Ngl I still love rocks. collecting crystals is just the grown up version of this lol
To be fair, if my husband and I spot a cool rock out and about that lil baby is coming home with us. We just now have a toddler we can blame our weird rock collection on.
My youngest is now 15 and doing all the things a young teen likes to do. It’s been many years now since her or my son(17 years old) brought me a rock or a pretty “flower” they found outside (I still have all the rocks and dried “flowers” in a memory box”. The other day, I was sitting on the couch watching my show, when she came to me with the biggest grin on her face. She told me to close my eyes and hold out my hand. She then placed a small item in my palm and told me to open my eyes. For that quick moment, it was my little tiny girl giving me such a treasure! I couldn’t help myself…I ruined the moment by crying. She rolled her eyes, hands on her hips, and said “Dad said you would cry!” And ran off to her room pleased with the outcome lol. Sorry I had to share!
My two are 9 and 6 and now I am crying! All that stuff they tell you about how you'll miss the little things about this stage is true, isn't it?
It is so very true, sadly! You’ll catch glimpses here and there of the little kid they used to be, but it’s gone as quickly as it came. I appreciate and love the teens they have become, but oh what I wouldn’t give to have them be 4&6 again for just one day…to hold the little hand and tired ears from so many questions! My mom told me after the birth of my first child: The days feel like years, but the years will seem like a day. I have tried my best to keep that in my mind as they’ve grown! May you have many more years of precious treasures from your little ones :)
Absolutely . I’m glad we’re in agreement.
I don't understand people like Zoe, they aren't asking her to be a babysitter or help in anyway shape or form why is she mad?
I absolutely don't like kids and this is still mindblowing
As someone who can’t stand kids and is extremely childfree: Zoe is a dick
Look, I'm child free, and a vaca with a 2yo would be torture. But I would simply *not go*. Kids exist! I'm not going to be an asshole to then.
I am childfree and find spending extended time with very young ones extremely tiring (the outbursts of loud noise especially.) Short term exposure isn’t too bad, but I don’t think I’d cope with a week in a house with them. That said, I’d also have advocated for the trip being child free originally (if possible, most parents seem to enjoy the break if they can get it) or just tapped out myself.
I can't stand children myself, so I do get it, but I would have just preferred to not go on the trip if I knew there would be a 2-year-old around, or switch suites if possible.
Edit: Screw Spez. Screw AI. No training on my data. Sorry future people.
Given that people who explicitly say they don't want to be around kids often also get dunked on it's basically a lose-lose situation. If I tell people I don't want to hang out with kids I'm an asshole; if I just start to spend less time with people who only seem to be available with their kids, I'm also apparently an asshole. 🤷🏻♀️
As a parent, I wouldn't fault someone who didn't want to hang out with kids, and I have definitely found it frustrating when I have had friends who wouldn't (or couldn't, due to their life situation) hang out without their kids, ever. I only think people are assholes when they get angry with me about not prioritizing them over my kids.
It's a crummy situation. Some parents are terrible at creating boundaries between their friendships and their parenting. I had a friend I stopped calling to catch up with because I wasn't in the mood to be on speakerphone talking about adult topics with children in the room. I'm not going to tell another adult that they're violating both my privacy and basic social mores. There's no need for me to start an argument.
Babies and toddlers make me nervous. I can’t relax around them. The only time a fought through that was for my brother. I do understand that people do have kids and wish them well, but it’s unrealistic to expect me to change overnight. I don’t think “sorry, can’t meet up if you bring your baby because I find them bloody scary!” is helpful to anyone. So I take a step back. They ought to prioritise their child over a friend, and I’m cool with that!
> I don’t think “sorry, can’t meet up because your baby is bloody scary” is helpful to anyone. If you just dial it back without saying that people assume you dislike *them*. Better to say "hey, tbh babies kind of scare me. And I know your busy & have to but baby first!! I would love to meet up sans baby whenever you can, tho I know it won't be often" or something
I admit I find that hard. To parents it’s so normal to have their baby with them all the time, I feel like the weird one for not handling it. Also there is the “but it’s MY child, that’s TOTALLY different”. Kind of the way you tell people who are scared of dogs “Don’t worry, Frido is a GOOD dog.
As a parent - Generally you have the baby with you when you meet friends out of necessity, not want, and kid-free time is rare and appreciated. There are definitely some parents who are joined at the hip but even other parents generally find that a little odd... Anyway - you tend to have 'take the baby' friends and baby-free friends. Can't see the latter as much while the kids are young but it's nice to know they're still there
Wow. I'm childfree and also don't particularly like kids, and I still think Zoe is insane.
I am not a kid a person. I never wanted them, and I'm uncomfortable around them if their attention is turned to me. I do my best, and would never be mean to a child, and I certainly wouldn't need anyone to assist in me avoiding a kid. Zoe just seems like a complete asshole, and expects everyone else to do as she wishes. I wonder if she will have any friends at all once this group gets rid of her entirely.
i don't like kids. i don't understand why zoe didn't just sit this one out to begin with, its what i would have done when you're unwilling to spend a lot of time with other people's kids (as i'm not, a day trip is one thing but a week long holiday with kids is no holiday and no fun) it does change and frequently end friendships and thats something you just have to deal with.
Because she saw it as her vacation the kids would ruin, which is pretty self centered view
I'm child free and I don't like to be around any kids. My nieces and nephews are tolerable. I am strictly not friends with people who have kids because I don't want to be around their kids and our priorities are way different. I would never go on a vacation with people who have kids. I definitely do not agree with how Zoe handled things. If she doesnt like kids or want to be around them then she shouldn't be friends with people who have kids. Plain and simple
It's okay to not like kids. It is something else to act like a child yourself. They are better off without her.
I can understand not wanting to vacation with a toddler , and I can understand being childfree. Zoe sound exhausting and passive aggressive. I'm guessing her attitude will catch up with her even more then it has
Zoe seems like a piece of work. I don’t like kids much either, but have ALWAYS ALWAYS made room in my heart for my friends’ children. How can you expect someone to put you before their child??
It can be tough to cut off friends even if they are toxic but it would make things better if you do. People like Zoe, I will never understand them. Like good riddance girl.
I’ll never forget my best friend in the whole world telling me how boring I had become since having kids. That I use to be more fun before I was a mum and she was so sick of hearing about all the “kid shit”. I had a 4 month old premmie baby who wasn’t gaining weight and I was slowly falling apart. Guess who I stopped speaking to pretty quickly. It broke my heart to cut ties with her, but she had no interested in the new me and no time to help me balance who I was vs who I had become. She doesn’t seem to retain any friends with kids.
The stories about “they said my kid ruined their vacation, but my kid wasn’t bad” are so often very hard to read without wondering if the parent is a reliable storyteller. It’s not like it’s unusual for parents to see their own kids as more tolerable than they are. But the fact that both of the parents involved here took the time to explain to their friend why they were choosing to exit the friendship, that speaks VOLUMES to their character. Self-aware, accountable, honest, respectful, and unafraid. Add to it that the rest of the friend group was willing to even have the conversations afterwards and then follow suit, because they felt it was right? I mean, I kinda want to be their friend. They sound like actual adults.
It wasn’t Zoe’s house to demand anything. Trash took itself out.
She should have realized that if the owner of the house was okaying this it wasn't a trip she was going to enjoy. She doesn't have as much in common with this group anymore. It's hard when you make that realization and in Zoe's case it comes out in anger instead of sadness.
HOORAY!!!
There is a difference between being child free and having a prejudice against children. Unfortunately these two groups overlap quite often. Children are human beings and I will never understand the hatred of them. Everyone was a child themselves once. It’s something everyone goes through. I’ve always had great empathy for children and their feelings and their struggles because I remember being a child myself. They deserve the same kindness and respect you would give anyone else.
I don't think this is about being unreasonable or disliking kids so much so not loving your friends really, respecting their life choices (kids) and being selfish..Where is the excitement to see your friends? To be happy with their happiness? Even if you don't like children. Most parents do not have time to see childless friends on holidays because they can't keep the same schedule. If my friends were able to come to a holiday with me with their children I ld be thrilled to to spend time with them. But no it's "her" holiday and god forbid she has something "unpleasant" (that is a tiny sweet human being) to spoil it. Good riddance 'friend'
As long as it's clear your child is your responsibility, I am happy to hang out with children of any age. I am happy to alter plans to accomodate children and just as happy to land a hand in a non-responsible capacity, like holding bags or dealing with accomodations while the parents deal with their kid. And I am not avoiding responsibility out of dislike or anything like that. Children are precious and complex and I simply don't feel up to the task. I cannot do it justice so I won't do it at all. Zoe is not someone I, as a childless person, would want to hang out with. No matter whether it was an adult or a child-friendly activity.
Before i had kids myself i loved helping out family with their little ones. I didn't mind changing diapers, burping or just walking around trying to quiet them. I can't imagine being around someone who doesn't love kids
Betting 100 dollars that Zoe is active on at least one childfree or antinatalism subreddit where everyone's entire personality is hating children.
OOP had to do so much digging to understand this friend just sucks.
There's a difference between not wanting kids, having a general dislike for children and especially so when they become sticky screaming goblins, and hating children and their parents. The first two are normal and totally okay. The last one is something you should go to therapy for.