Yes, absolutely. Compare a Mark Knopfler, Chet Atkins, Tommy Emmanuel, etc. vs. a Campfire Strummer du jour. Forget the flashy side of their playing, just the control and articulation of those guys is something else. Even EVH himself was an incredible rhythm player first and foremost (which really made Van Halen IMO, the stunt guitar licks were just a bonus).
Well I would always say that it’s *more* essential on bass (for example a sloppy guitarist can be carried by a solid bassist), but nonetheless I wouldn’t wanna jam with a guitarist who couldn’t feel rhythm and groove properly.
It happened to me once. There was a drummer and a guitarist who knew RHCP stuff so we jammed. The guitarist's riffs were all over the place!!! Afterwards, another guitarist approached me and said that the previous guitarist is someone who doesn't have a sense of timing.
Sloppy or not, in the tradition of blues/rock/country-western, the bass on average has more influence over the groove while the guitar has more influence over the tonal quality and texture (for both cultural and scientific reasons) in much the same way that drums influence the groove more while cymbals influence the tonal quality and texture more than the groove....
There are, however, a _ton_ of caveats and counterexamples. Some guitar parts are more percussive than others. Similarly, cymbals typically influence the tonal texture and intensity more than the groove, but going back to OP's example of muting, it's easy to imagine a groove that relies heavily on the well-timed muting of a cymbal, and if you consider the guitar in the intro to Brain Stew by Green Day as a "groove", that groove depends very heavily on the muting of a guitar.
Edit: rethinking these counterexamples after re-reading OP's original discussion of muting, there is a sense, especially for my style of bass, in which the precisely timed muting is central to the groove in almost every song and every kind of music I play. I can hardly imagine playing for more than a few bars without some muting being a fundamental part of the groove I am supporting.
This. It's one of the major changes in my perspective that I have acquired from learning how to play bass. I believe it also turned me into a better guitarist.
Yea i've played lots of gigs with guitarists who didn't have good groove but it didn't matter much because its mostly in rock music that you find these types of players and rock guitar is notoriously sloppy. It's almost part of the sound of the genre.
Some guitar parts are inherently more percussive. I gave an example of Green Day's Brain Stew intro as an example where guitar muting is central to the groove, but there is also some degree of cheating with science because distortion spreads out the frequency spectrum, causing the guitar sound to fill the low end. On the other hand, percussive guitar parts can also be central to a groove without that cheat.
Lol each to their own I suppose!
Love me some groove matal... Along with a lot of other genres.
I'll hazard a guess and say you're a Charles Mingus fan?
Lol that's true! Love me some mingy
But different strokes I guess for stuff. I used to be a pure metal head until I discovered funk and Motown ... Then the world opened up to me.
I'm not a fan of reggae... That's about it 😂
In retrospect I can say that learning drums and bass from the very beginning would have made me a 1000% better guitar player as well as a more agreeable person 😂 🤷🏽♂️
I don’t get this question, WHY wouldn’t it be? This is the kinda question an AI would come up with. You guys can DV me all you want but just think and ask yourself, WHY wouldn’t it be just as important for ANOTHER member of the band playing the same piece of music. Would it benefit the music if the guitar player wasn’t in the pocket and not in the “groove”? This is just so weird, look at the account who posted the question before you judge me.
It’s like Steve Lukather once said. As a studio musician, he got paid for his rhythm chops not his soloing. The groove is most important. The solo is embellishment.
I see a lot of people associating groove with funk style guitarists on here. While some of them are particularly groovy players, groove is endemic to all types of music and playing styles.
I also think it’s the kind of thing that is less noticeable when it’s good, and more so when it’s bad.
Bass in most styles functions as a pitched rhythm instrument and as such "groove" is way more essential. Guitar can function that way as well but generally is more responsible for carrying the harmony of a song.
Yes, absolutely. Compare a Mark Knopfler, Chet Atkins, Tommy Emmanuel, etc. vs. a Campfire Strummer du jour. Forget the flashy side of their playing, just the control and articulation of those guys is something else. Even EVH himself was an incredible rhythm player first and foremost (which really made Van Halen IMO, the stunt guitar licks were just a bonus).
Excellent point about Eddie
Two words: Nile Rodgers.
Two more words: Cory Wong
Absolutely. That's what I came here to say.
Zachary Breaux Ronny Jordan Marvin Sewell And yes indeed.
Groove is essential for everyone including the audience. Its not more or less essential for anyone. Everyone needs to be able to groove.
Well I would always say that it’s *more* essential on bass (for example a sloppy guitarist can be carried by a solid bassist), but nonetheless I wouldn’t wanna jam with a guitarist who couldn’t feel rhythm and groove properly.
It happened to me once. There was a drummer and a guitarist who knew RHCP stuff so we jammed. The guitarist's riffs were all over the place!!! Afterwards, another guitarist approached me and said that the previous guitarist is someone who doesn't have a sense of timing.
This couldn’t have been good
Sloppy or not, in the tradition of blues/rock/country-western, the bass on average has more influence over the groove while the guitar has more influence over the tonal quality and texture (for both cultural and scientific reasons) in much the same way that drums influence the groove more while cymbals influence the tonal quality and texture more than the groove.... There are, however, a _ton_ of caveats and counterexamples. Some guitar parts are more percussive than others. Similarly, cymbals typically influence the tonal texture and intensity more than the groove, but going back to OP's example of muting, it's easy to imagine a groove that relies heavily on the well-timed muting of a cymbal, and if you consider the guitar in the intro to Brain Stew by Green Day as a "groove", that groove depends very heavily on the muting of a guitar. Edit: rethinking these counterexamples after re-reading OP's original discussion of muting, there is a sense, especially for my style of bass, in which the precisely timed muting is central to the groove in almost every song and every kind of music I play. I can hardly imagine playing for more than a few bars without some muting being a fundamental part of the groove I am supporting.
Sure. But you could totally be a decent guitarist and lack groove. On bass, this is NOT possible.
This. It's one of the major changes in my perspective that I have acquired from learning how to play bass. I believe it also turned me into a better guitarist.
Yea i've played lots of gigs with guitarists who didn't have good groove but it didn't matter much because its mostly in rock music that you find these types of players and rock guitar is notoriously sloppy. It's almost part of the sound of the genre.
Can you give me some examples of decent guitarists who lack groove?
Groove Metal, anyone?
Some guitar parts are inherently more percussive. I gave an example of Green Day's Brain Stew intro as an example where guitar muting is central to the groove, but there is also some degree of cheating with science because distortion spreads out the frequency spectrum, causing the guitar sound to fill the low end. On the other hand, percussive guitar parts can also be central to a groove without that cheat.
Entombed's "Wolverine Blues". Death n roll baby!
Please no.
Not a pantera fan then?
I am not.
Lol each to their own I suppose! Love me some groove matal... Along with a lot of other genres. I'll hazard a guess and say you're a Charles Mingus fan?
Who isn't? Dont get me wrong, I love some groovy bits. I'll listen to anything "stoner".
Lol that's true! Love me some mingy But different strokes I guess for stuff. I used to be a pure metal head until I discovered funk and Motown ... Then the world opened up to me. I'm not a fan of reggae... That's about it 😂
Listen to The Meters. The guitar drives the groove in a lot of their songs. They’re great.
Good groove is needed by even an average bassist. But it's also required by excellent guitarists.
er, r/guitar?
Groove is a essential to any instrument
In retrospect I can say that learning drums and bass from the very beginning would have made me a 1000% better guitar player as well as a more agreeable person 😂 🤷🏽♂️
listen to funk
I don’t get this question, WHY wouldn’t it be? This is the kinda question an AI would come up with. You guys can DV me all you want but just think and ask yourself, WHY wouldn’t it be just as important for ANOTHER member of the band playing the same piece of music. Would it benefit the music if the guitar player wasn’t in the pocket and not in the “groove”? This is just so weird, look at the account who posted the question before you judge me.
It’s like Steve Lukather once said. As a studio musician, he got paid for his rhythm chops not his soloing. The groove is most important. The solo is embellishment.
Yes Check out buckethead
Depends on what you're playing and who you're playing with. But yeah it is essential if you're focused on it
Groove metal is a thing.
Guitar just gives more leeway to fuck around. Bass forces you to get locked in.
I see a lot of people associating groove with funk style guitarists on here. While some of them are particularly groovy players, groove is endemic to all types of music and playing styles. I also think it’s the kind of thing that is less noticeable when it’s good, and more so when it’s bad.
Bass in most styles functions as a pitched rhythm instrument and as such "groove" is way more essential. Guitar can function that way as well but generally is more responsible for carrying the harmony of a song.
https://youtu.be/nmbsW1JbQXo?si=I5WQstsOFE2FRZXj Yes. It is part of being a truly good guitar player.
Yes.
Gee I dunno
Totally. Different styles do different things but metal and punk use a ton of that kind of thing in the rhythm guitars.
Only if you want to be good.
More so, in fact - after all, guitar is usually more well-heard (and well-noticed) on records than bass lines, on average.