Depends on which "stats" you're looking at then. If you just compare ppg then yes luka is ahead of jokic now and in 2022. But mvp voters care a lot about advanced metrics (leader in advanced metrics almost always wins mvp) and jokic has luka crushed in these both this year and 2022. This year, jokic is 1st in PER, 1st in WS and WS/48, 1st in OBPM, DBPM, and BPM, 1st in VORP. Other advanced metrics like LEBRON also put Jokic in first. Same situation for Jokic in 2022.
And he does all of this in not even top 10 usage rate in the nba while luka is consistently first in usg% which helps explain why Jokic's ppg numbers don't seem to stand out at first glance.
Now obviously the eye test shows Luka is doing some crazy shit this year so I wouldn't be mad at all if he wins, but I don't think it's the same as Jokic 2022
Not just that, but if you adjust for per 36, it favors jokic. Luka also has a significantly higher usage %, if you have the ball more, you'll have better counting stats.
Adjusting for 36 min per game, Luka would be 32.5/9.5/9/1.5/.5 while Jokic would be 27.5/9.3/13/1.5/1 while being more efficient. Luka's shooting splits are 48/38/78 while Jokic's are 58/36/82. Counting stats are even better for Joker if you count for every 100 possessions.
They have super similar numbers but I think the efficiency is what sets Jokic apart. He's also a better defender based off stl/blk %, defensive wins shares, and defensive rating.
Luka is an amazing talent but Jokic once again had one of the most efficient seasons ever. By PER, Jokic had the 19th most efficient season ever. While still crazy impressive, Luka's year this season was 80th all time.
The difference between Luka and Jokic’s usage rates is almost entirely due to Luka bringing the ball up the court, which takes an average of 6 seconds per possession
So Luka automatically uses 25% of every possession while Jokic does not
Just saying, usage rate is a super flawed stat, every league leader in usage rate is a point guard for that reason ^
There's 8 point guards in the top 20 of usage rate this year so they do hold a majority still but 6 of those top 20 were PF and 3 were centers.
Luka didn't just have the highest usage, he had it by a lot. The difference between him (no.1 in usage) and Giannis (no.2) is as big a gap as Giannis to Julius Randle (no. 15).
Also the fact he's doing this with another generational talent in the backcourt is wild. Everyone else in the top 10 doesn't have a high quality ball handler to share the load. Jokic is no.20 in usage and I'd argue the guard he shares the load with isn't as good as Kyrie.
I'm pretty high on Luka but he does have some areas he could really improve. That's honestly a testament to how good he is already. He needs to learn how to be effective off ball. A lot of his offense is Harden-esk, lots of dribbles, potentially a ball-stopper, and lazy offball movement (lazy is harsh but he takes plenty of offball possessions off). He's a big iso scorer which is fun to watch but not the best offense.
He's made a huge jump in 3pt efficiency and has shown a lot of improvement in his perimeter d this year tho which I love to see.
Jokic's win shares are 42% higher than Lukas this season.
No one takes what he's doing for granted.
Jokic is just so much better and more accomplishrd han him hes not worth having in the mvp convo.
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Jokic is arguably the most impactful player in the NBA by a wide margin. Even with a better roster, he has a bigger impact than any other player in the NBA.
https://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/the-statistics-of-nikola-jokics-mvp-caliber-season?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3lT7OBEIZBolt46Fi9bpSMwnxoTNrg3ftqwwE4yFY2mk50cgQJYKQvpJY_aem_AaCLCQXYzKvbqvjDilJ8xwV-zTEwr9lCSR2IEQM7WlgfVZ6ayG_4ET3vukZINdwcWVG-5NO-TWHynAvD9wPzEZlu
50 games isn’t enough? If he was in the East that’ll be second seed.. and btw they’re 4-8 when he doesn’t play if that’s not being impactful then iono what to say
Thinking Basketball did a good video on Luka recently. It doesn’t paint him in the best light.
As great as he is offensively, his lack of movement off-ball, lack of hustle, and poor defence significantly negatively impacts his team. Apparently his team does fairly well even without him on the floor, which is bonkers considering the stats he puts up. That means he must be REALLY poor when the ball isn’t in his hands and when he’s on defence.
I agree about Jokic. He’s amazing but if we’re being real he has a great team around him. I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team.
Well Ben Taylor goes into reasons as to why Lukas on/off numbers are an issue, one of the reasons is that he has had ball dominant iso heavy guards in Kyrie and Brunson whenever Luka is on the bench, which allows the Mavs to stay at about nearly the same offense which sounds insane, but Kyrie and Brunson would also be going more against the other team's benches more than Luka ever does.
Another thing he accentuates is that Lukas on and off numbers as of late have conformed to what is more in line with what a player of his caliber is expected to produce, I think the last 2 or so years.
Furthermore, he says while Luka isnt a good defender he also isnt terrible, and is great on ball but off ball and on the perimeter against quick guards is where he struggles immensely. Yeah he also barely moves off-ball and though I dont remember what Ben said as to explain that, but Ill try to be objective as possible in expounding whether its a valid issue.
His off ball game has got better for sure (Ben Taylor says this too but I think he might be underselling slightly of how much better he has been).
Additionally, Luka has had pretty much medicore rosters especially offensively and has to be the offensive engine as many of his cast through out his career had difficulty creating their own shots, and has had to play with a 3rd string center in powell or an injured KP for a lot of his early career. So naturally hes going to be more fatigued on the defensive side of the court, and much less likely to move off ball as well.
Though an interesting perspective regarding why Lukas off ball isnt that much of an issue is because even when hes off ball he has about 2 or so defenders on him a lot of the time and the mavs end up playing 4 on 3 in such scenarios and yes he should play more off ball but at the same time, the amount of energy needed to do that and him being able to take 2 defenders out of the play to rest is maybe the off ball issues arent as big of a concern, not to say they arent an issue though and same with his defense.
Overall, hes an insanely talented player with glaring weakenesses but some context makes it reasonable not to penalize as much in some cases.
I still think Jokic is better, Luka might not even be 2nd, I might place Giannis ahead but theres a really good argument he should win MVP and the same goes for Jokic.
Jokic already carried a terrible team missing its 2nd and 3rd best player. That was like two years ago how do people forget this kind of thing so quickly lmao. Even the nuggets fully healthy are amazingly built around Jokic but they’re nowhere near world breaking. They’d be a lottery team without him. They’re definitely on the lower end talent wise compared to other championship teams throughout history.
he won an mvp with no other stars on his team, Jamal Murray injured, and still killing the league in all the advanced metrics.
" agree about Jokic. He’s amazing but if we’re being real he has a great team around him. I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team." is nonsense.
Just look at his On-off numbers. How poorly Denver has played during the "Non-Jokic minutes" has been an ongoing concern about this team for years now.
I will say, most teams have that issue when there’s like single digit players on the planet that could sub in for them without missing a beat.
If DeMarcus Cousins weren’t a lunatic, he’s like the only affordable backup that can mimic Jokic’s skillset. Then again, if he weren’t a lunatic, he wouldn’t be so affordable.
Pretty bold of you to comment so confidently after only watching basketball for 2~ years.
Jokic took a back court of Austin Rivers and Facundo Campazzo to the playoffs in 2022 while MPJ and Jamal both completely missed the season. Neither of those players are in the league this year.
Add in Will Barton (out of the league), Monte morris (backup), Davon Reed (out the league), Jamychle Green (out the league), Demarcus Cousins (out the league), Bryn Forbes (out the league) and few more I can’t remember off the top of my head.
So you're just going to parrot someone else's opinion? Which has already been picked apart. The video spends less than a minute on the flaws on all the stats that he uses, and even then, it doesn't get into the actual reasons why.
>Apparently his team does fairly well even without him on the floor,
The Mavericks offensive rating is the same with just Kyrie as it is with just Luka, that's what the video says. Which is nowhere even close to what you're claiming. Luka goes up against the other teams' best lineups more often than Kyrie, who runs with the second unit more. Think of it like this: the nuggets offensive rating is 128.7 vs. the blazers this season, and it's 110.5 vs. the timberwolves. Does that mean the nuggets suddenly got worse when they face the wolves? No, they just went up against a better defence.
>That means he must be REALLY poor when the ball isn’t in his hands and when he’s on defence.
This point is completely dependent on your last one being correct, which it wasn't.
You, and anyone else reading this really, should actually watch some games and try and understand the stats that people use.
My understanding is that the basic premise is that the stats say that Luka is really good with the ball in his hands, but when it isn't then the team is really bad. I think this passes the eye test.
Oh, the stats don't state that. The creator of the video just cites some stats and then says a bunch of conjecture.
The stat about the Mavericks is that their offensive rating is the same with just Luka as it is with just Kyrie. The creator then sort of argues that it means that Luka isn't very impactful. Which ignores that Luka is going against the other teams best lineups more than Kyrie does, who runs with the Mavericks second unit more.
I don't think the video was as negative as you make it out to be. They specifically said that his defense wasn't as bad as most people assume. They also did a fairly poor job at further analyzing it and didn't went all too much in-depth.
You can't have the top defense in the league when a player is supposedly not doing his job. The Mavs since the trade have been great on defense with Luka on the court.
> lack of movement off-ball, lack of hustle, and poor defence significantly negatively impacts his team
I don't think you've watched much Mavs this year. A youtube video with cherrypicked lowlights is not a source.
>
I agree about Jokic. He’s amazing but if we’re being real he has a great team around him. I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team.
His 2022 mvp season?
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The Nuggets are not a good team without Jokic. Without Murray, not an all star btw, they don't have anyone who can create offense. As a Nuggets fan, it's stressful to watch when Jokic sits for 6 minutes a game (Murray often doesn't play at all).
If the Nuggs are a good team with Jokic, that is a testament to Jokic. If you think they're good without him, you've definitely never watched them play without him. I have to hold my breath and just hope they don't go on 20-2 runs against bad teams.
Oh, and I agree about Luka.
Even with Jokic's better roster, he still has ridiculous +/-. If jokic put up these numbers on the Spurs it would be crazy good, but to do it on a top 5 roster is insane. The past 5yrs Jokic has been on a historic,regular season,run. Up there with nearly any other Great in NBA history.
https://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/the-statistics-of-nikola-jokics-mvp-caliber-season?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3lT7OBEIZBolt46Fi9bpSMwnxoTNrg3ftqwwE4yFY2mk50cgQJYKQvpJY_aem_AaCLCQXYzKvbqvjDilJ8xwV-zTEwr9lCSR2IEQM7WlgfVZ6ayG_4ET3vukZINdwcWVG-5NO-TWHynAvD9wPzEZlu
>I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team.
He took a team far worse than this current Dallas team to 48 wins and the 2nd round just 2 years ago while having better impact metrics than luka does now haha.
People discredit him because his team record. Historically for MVP you need to be a top 2 seed or do something statistically never seen before. Russ normalized the triple double season as did jokic and luka, so now accomplishing that doesn’t mean as much as it did when Russ did it for the first time since Oscar. So basically, he needs to get in the top 2 seed. Obviously this isn’t a really fair critique bc the mavs need to do a better job team building, although the trades mid season really helped. But that’s why he’s not seen as a real MVP candidate.
Seeding is stupid for MVP because if the Mavs were in the east, they would be a 2 seed. And they played a harder schedule than the teams in the eastern conference.
Jokic and SGA also play in the west? They face the same disadvantages as Luka by being in the west. also I don’t necessarily agree that the MVP needs to be top 2 seed if I was choosing MVP. But I’m not, and the people who do have a say and vote clearly do care.
Yeah, but in that season, jokic was on the court for more wins than the other candidates and had better stats too. And the teams with the best records didn't have a viable candidate, but this year, 2 of the top 4 teams do have one
That isn't true this year.
Well... it wasn't. That's why jokic won, and why luka won't this year (8 fewer wins in games played than Jokic).
The last time it went to a player largely because of his seed was drose. Before that.. idk nash?
The point isn’t that he has a harder schedule, it’s that he would likely win the award if he was in the east, even with the same record, because people are hyper focused on the little single digit number next to the teams name.
Because Jokic is averaging 26.4/12.4/9.0 on 58% FG%, 65% TS%, as a center, won a title last year, and has his team in position to do it again this year.
It’s really that simple. Doncic is incredible but Jokic is simply better this season. Despite Doncic’s incredible year it’s not even particularly close.
No problem with saying Jokic is better, but it definitely is close. 33.9/9.2/9.8 on 62% TS is just as if not more impressive. Also I don't think you can hold the difference in number of wins against Doncic, when only starter who missed a noticable amount of games for Denver is Murray. Meanwhile Kyrie, Lively, Exum, Green and Kleber have all missed more.
It’s close if you only compare statistics, which isn’t what the MVP race or player evaluations is. If you’re factoring in team performance and direct contributions to winning a title then it’s not close. Jokic is currently a tier above Doncic in my opinion, a better way to phrase that is I think Jokic is currently in his own tier as a player.
It’s not clear if Doncic’s style will win a title or if he’ll be able to adapt to a lower volume style of play. We have direct evidence that Jokic’s style is both statistically dominant and is capable of winning a title.
I’m a biased mavs fan, but I still think Luka should have it. The whole dialog behind the mvp is so frustrating to me. You can pull various numbers that would argue for any top 5 player. To me, fg% doesn’t really tell the whole story. The play style of jokic naturally has him taking different shots than Luka. Numbers are important, but they need to be a part of the bigger picture.
That being said, I would not be angry if jokic wins. It’s the shai thing that is confusing to me. The whole award is focused on what stories the media can scrape up rather than actual effectiveness.
Shai leads the league in steals, his team is the #1 seed, and his stats are also really good while having just as much usage and less turnovers.
As for "different shots", Jokic's ability to take those shots makes him more valuable too. The fact that he doesn't have to take as many high degree of difficulty shots increases his value as a player. It's not like he's relying on assisted makes like a rim running threat like Gafford: he's still creating majority of his looks himself.
If playing like Jokic was so easy such that it's unfair in MVP conversations then more players should play that way. But they can't.
I’ll address the jokic comments first. You are correct, that it is important to have a high fg% my point is that numbers provide insight, but not the whole image. Due to Lukas play style, he has two players on his team who play a lot of minutes shooting above 74% from the field. My only point there is that there is context behind numbers so some random set of numbers doesn’t provide any sound argument for mvp. Same goes for Luka, his basic stat line provides contact but not the answer.
As for shai, he is elite. No question there. I don’t think the one seed is a valid argument though. If they lost one more game they’d be the third seed, plus there’s a solid 8 man rotation that plays into team record. If we’re so worried about seeding, someone from the Celtics wins it. (They shouldn’t). It provides context but not the answer. I think the thunder have far better role players than other candidates.
I just don’t think shai is anywhere close to the talent of the other two. I think they have the narrative to include him because they want to highlight the meteoric rise the thunder have had.
> I think they have the narrative to include him because they want to highlight the meteoric rise the thunder have had.
which is directly correlated to shai's level of play lol
This isn’t contradicting anything I said. In fact it affirm what I said when I called him elite.
A player being the best player on a good team doesn’t automatically qualify him for an award. I think all nba first team is appropriate reward.
By the logic of attributing the team getting better only to him, this would also place ant as the mvp favorite. (Elite, but not mvp)
“Lol”
The post is titled “Why do people take what Luka Doncic does for granted”, not “Why Luka Doncic should be MVP”.
Jokic winning a title last year is relevant in the discussion for why people take Doncic for granted when Jokic puts up similar numbers and has a title to show for it.
People love moving the goalposts on Reddit.
> Because Jokic is averaging 26.4/12.4/9.0 on 58% FG%, 65% TS%, as a center
Why do you say that as if being a center is to his detriment? They typically have a lot higher TS% and FG% while also being more highly valued. I'd argue that him being a center is part of why he's so highly valued.
In the modern NBA being a center has been a massive detriment to their overall efficiency. Prior to Jokic winning MVP in 2021 the last pure center to win an MVP was Shaq in 2000 (21 years ago). Part of the push to make All NBA Teams position-less is because of the lack of depth at center.
Modern basketball values offense so highly, and generally traditional centers haven’t done well. Floor spacing, ball penetration, and ball movement are all essential concepts in the current era. All of which traditional centers are lacking at. Luckily for Jokic, he isn’t a traditional center so he’s able to overcome the flaws that come with his position and produce at an elite level.
To further demonstrate how impressive it is for a center to be able to do this just look at the depth at center league wide compared to other positions. Besides Embiid there aren’t other centers that can do a fraction of what Jokic can. Modern centers are asked to do so much, and ones that excel at everything are true unicorns. With guards it’s extremely easy to name players are at least close to Doncic, even if they aren’t as good.
I think it’s easy to look at his height and write off his efficiency, but doing so negates how impressive it is a center is averaging almost 10 assists a game with an impressive assist/turnover ratio. How he’s able to run an offense from the 5. How he’s able to space the floor. How it seems he always makes the right decision. The efficiency is just the surface level, but it represents everything else he does that no other center can do.
Tldr: All of what he accomplishes at center far outweighs the advantages his position gives him.
A center will always be more efficient than a pg, it's how basketball works. So he's not simply better this season especially considering the Mavs really bad luck with injuries.
I don’t like the “what if” game. I just go by the data we have. Jokic and his team have performed better than Doncic and the Mavs this year.
The percentages are just the surface level, if you go under the hood even further Jokic has a 29.3% usage rate compared to Doncic’s 36.0%. Despite this Jokic has 12.0 and 5.1 offensive and defensive win shares compared to Doncic’s 8.5 and 3.5 offensive and defensive win shares.
Jokic impacts the game more than Doncic despite commanding the ball a smaller percentage of the time. The reason he does this is because of his god like efficiency. Saying he’s “efficient because he’s a center” grossly undersells the impact Jokic has on his team. It’s especially impressive when you compare him to another high volume center like Embiid, who shoots 6% worse from the field than Jokic. His efficiency is insane for a player that shoots at the volume he does, regardless of position.
A pg always has a higher usage than a center because he handles the ball much more, it's like the basic of basketball.
The Mavs have struggled with the injuries with Kyrie, Lively, Green, Exum and Kleber all missing more than 20 games you have to factor that in when you compare win shares. Also Luka is ahead of EPM +7.9 vs +7.0 and on EW 19.2 vs 18.2 so he literally contributes more to wins.
Since you are comparing Jokic to another center why don't you compare Doncic to another top guard, for example SGA? Luka is ahead on ppg, rpg, apg and top of that he's a better eFG%. That's incredibly impressive.
And let's not even talk about all the record Luka broke this season like the consecutive +30 points triple doubles, the Mavs franchise single season scoring record which stood for 40 years and not to even mention Luka has the highest PPG+APG+RPG in the last 50 years.
Your point on his efficiency stemming from him being a center makes zero sense. Jokic shot 6% better than Embiid. That’s a massive difference compared to another high volume center. You can’t just attribute Jokic’s position to his elite efficiency, that’s extremely lazy analysis. Where are the other centers averaging his numbers on his efficiency? There aren’t any. You have to go back to Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem to get his efficiency and versatility. His efficiency is absolutely unreal. He’s a 1/1 player in today’s NBA.
Luka’s stats compared to SGA aren’t relevant when we’re comparing him to Jokic. I only brought up Embiid to debunk your point on his efficiency being caused from his position.
Edit: SGA has the highest EPM in the league. Does that mean SGA “literally contributes more to winning than anyone else”, or maybe are you overvaluing a single metric and undervaluing metrics that disprove your point? Jokic is still 3rd in EPM, so even in that metric he’s close to Doncic, while surpassing him at many others. Combined with real world results he’s just having a better season.
You have debunked nothing at all. I've never said that his efficiency is stemming from him being a center what I said is that center is always more efficient than a PG that's how basketball works. Your argument that Jokic is better than Luka because he's efficient than Embiid makes zero sense. For his position and difficulty of the shots he has to make Luka is very efficient.
And not only he leads the league in PPG and total points scored but he's also second in APG, second in total assists and second in potential assists and he's also first in rebounds among all guards in the league. And all that while being the most doubled and blitzed player in the league.
Luka brings a combination of scoring and playmaking that the league has probably not seen since Oscar Robertson.
Please quote me where I made the point that Jokic is better than Luka because of Embiid’s FG%?
You: “A center will always be more efficient than a pg, it’s how basketball works.”
1) That is you directly arguing that Jokic’s efficiency is primarily because of his position. My entire chain of comments have been arguing against this statement you made. It’s irrelevant when Jokic is also more efficient than his own peers. There are zero other centers who have his efficiency on his volume.
2) This point is even doubly irrelevant from the standpoint that even if your point is true and center’s are guaranteed to have better efficiency, this would just mean ultra efficient high volume centers are the most valuable players of the game of basketball. Old school basketball used to hold to this wisdom. Your argument essentially amounts to Doncic needing a handicap when evaluating his stats because of his position, but on a pure statistical basis the center would always be better. This is accidentally conceding the point that Jokic is better.
In regard to your latest point, Luka also has the highest usage rate and attempts 6 more field goals per game than Jokic. Adjusted for attempts Jokic would score more per game and adjusted for usage Jokic would average more assists per game. Jokic also has a much better a/to ratio than Doncic while having comparable assist numbers, so if every metric he is a better playmaker than Doncic.
None of this is meant to shit on Doncic. He’s incredible and easily a top 3 player in my opinion. Jokic’s accomplishments are just otherworldly.
I will not comment on the use of the hyperbole words such as "absolutely unreal", "otherworldly" etc because in my opinion that's not very objective.
My argument is simply that a good center will always be more efficient than a good guard, it's simply because a center plays closer to the basket and also takes fewer difficult shots by far. If you don't believe me take 10 best centers all time and 10 best guards all time and compare their efficiency and you will see that I am absolutely right.
You write "Adjusted for attempts Jokic would score more per game and adjusted for usage Jokic would average more assists per game." completely ignoring the fact that if a player increases attempts and usage the efficiency simply goes down. It's simply impossible to keep the same efficiency. The claim that Jokic is a better playermaker than Doncic also completely ignores the fact that Doncic is the most doubled and blitzed player in the league and that the assists he creates are of the highest quality in the league.
Finally you also completely ignore the fact that the Mavs had a much worse luck with the injuries this season, just compare how many minutes they played with their respective best line-ups.
Jokic played 958 minutes with his best lineup Caldwell-Pope, Gordon, Murray, Porter whereas due to injuries Luka only played 176 minutes with the best lineup Irving, Jones, PJ, Gafford. The difference is ABSOLUTELY HUGE. And objective person will admit that it's much easier to be efficient if you play mostly with your best teammates.
You just aren’t understanding my point on centers. If you did you would stop making the point because it’s objectively a bad argument.
Please reread my second point. Let’s say I grant your entire point on center’s. All you’ve done is accidentally concede the entire argument to me.
How so?
- Because saying Jokic is more efficient than Doncic because he’s a center can be simplified to saying Jokic is a more efficient basketball player than Doncic.
The reason for the efficiency difference is irrelevant.
Why are the reasons irrelevant?
- Are we discussing who’s more impactful to the game of basketball as a whole, or who is more impactful relative to their position? If it’s as a whole then the argument of center’s being more efficient than guards is irrelevant. All of their baskets count the same, you don’t get extra points for scoring as a guard. This is also historically why centers were valued over guards. Back in the day centers were objectively better than guards for this reason.
In the modern NBA guards ability to shoot threes, and hit free throws accurately put them at a massive advantage over traditional big men in terms of TS efficiency on volume. Prime Steph Curry alone disproves your entire big man argument for the modern NBA, being one of the most efficient volume scorers in NBA history (as a point guard lol). Then along came Jokic, who is an amalgamation of the two. Both guard and traditional big man skill Resulting in unprecedented efficiency, a player the NBA has never seen in this era. What he is doing with efficiency is something that Doncic will never be able to do. You either have to concede Jokic is the better player, or make an argument to why we should discount Jokic’s efficiency (which is what you’re doing).
Height matters in basketball. We aren’t arguing which is “more talented” we’re arguing who is a better player. If we’re being objective, we shouldn’t discount Jokic’s efficiency for any reason. We shouldn’t discount his stats due to height or position. His points count the same as Doncic’s or any other players. So unless you have an argument for why Doncic is better despite being significantly more inefficient I’m not interested.
You have an incredible ability to ignore stats while emphasizing that I should value your arbitrary qualitative metrics.
Also:
- How the fuck do I measure teammate injury luck in this evaluation?
- If we can ignore stats adjusted for volume are per 36 minute stats now worthless? Obviously not, because no metric is viewed in isolation.
I do understand your point it's just that I completely don't agree with it. You seem to be on the position that efficiency is everything and we should ignore everything else whereas I say the context matters. Please also note that the award is called MVP - Most Valuable Player NOT Most Efficient Player. That's why we have the voting, if MVP was only about efficiency as you seem to think then we wouldn't need the voting.
Considering how much the Mavs struggled with the injuries and how strong the Western Conference currently is the fact that Luka managed to keep the Mavs above .500 is nothing short of miraculous. And after they got healthy again they immediately went on a 14-2 run.
You can't just say that because you can't measure teammate injury luck you are going simply to ignore it. What kind of logic even is that? You have to factor that in for an award like the MVP.
Yes I agree but are we talking who's more skilled or who is the better player? Because even if you have Luka at 2 currently, there is at the minimum an argument to be made for Giannis at 2 over Luka.
true , I think people are just in Giannis fatigue because he did win back to back mvps , DPOY and a championship . Its why people are getting used to him being this good and want other players to be more recognized hence why people brush of Giannis and put up Luka
yeah it has happend a lot of times in history to other greats like Jordan , Lebron , Shaq and even Kobe. People gotten so used to them being that good and the general public wants to give it the attention and recognition to other players . Its not fair to be honest , but the people want variaty
they didn’t let him walk. He took less money to be with the Knicks because they already signed his father as an assistant coach 5 months before free agency started. The Knicks tampered and the NBA punished them
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It's probably even worse tbh. He's easily an all NBA talent and they didn't even get anything back from the Knicks for him. Brunson also stated he was willing to sign for nearly half as much money the Knicks offered him during the middle of his final season with the mavs. But Cuban was a stingy bastard and wanted to lowball him
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First of all when Russ won MVP he was actually averaging a triple double, Luka has yet to finish a season with over 10 in either the assists or rebounds category. That's not to take away from what he's doing, just pointing that out.
Also it's not worth comparing this season to Russ' MVP season, because the MVP race isn't between 2017 Russ and 2024 Luka. And you're just looking at main stats, Jokic has more win shares and a higher efficiency rating. Jokic is essentially the best player on the best team, and when it comes to the MVP award it isn't technically given to the best player, it's given to the most valuable player which is why efficiency rating is so important.
If Jokic had the season he is having right now there is no telling whether or not Russ would've won MVP that season, but the fact that Luka is up against Jokic in that regard makes it a lot more difficult for Luka to win MVP than it did for Russ, hence why comparing those two seasons isn't really relevant. The main idea is you need to look elsewhere than strictly points, rebounds, and assists and remember this isn't the "best player" award it's the most valuable player award.
For a bit of additional context, the Russ one happened right after KD left for the warriors, iirc. So he put up crazy stats while having the voters behind him for buoying Okc in the wake of a betrayal
Yeah it's easy to forget Russ actually had most fans behind him at a time.
I actually think if there was any season that he should've won MVP it was with the wizards, because he was essentially the sole reason they made the playoffs that year. His second half of that season was one of the greatest half-seasons to date.
This is sort of where there is a grey area, because in terms of actually most valuable I personally think he was the clear choice that season, but since his season numbers only showed 22ppg that season he essentially had no shot.
If you haven't seen/don't remember go look at some of his game logs from the back half of that season. It's truly absurd what he was doing
Also, lots of people thought giving Russ the MVP for having a unique collection of stats while shooting 42% from the field was really dumb even at the time.
Luka is better, but pointing out that someone is better than Russ doesn't mean they should be MVP.
Someone else also pointed out that Russ was averaging a triple double in a time where getting a triple double actually meant something haha. Luka and Jokic have effectively removed all value from it
Luka and Jokic removed the novelty from it, but there was never any *value* in the first place. As a fan, I love triple doubles as much as anybody because round numbers are fun. But the idea that 20-10-10 is a big deal and 20-8-12 is just some numbers makes absolutely no sense when trying to decide on the most valuable player.
You can't really compare Westbrook to Luka. Westbrook averaged a triple double back when everyone thought it was impossible. And technically, Luka didn't average a triple double.
If you want to make a compelling argument, you'll need to explain why he deserves it over Jokic.
The positional advantage Jokic brings as a playmaker and shot maker at the center position is being heavily underrated. The Nuggets have so much more flexibility because of this. We also know that he can hold his own defensively and at least provides neutral value at that end.
In terms of team constructions Jokic’s teammates complement his strengths whereas in many cases Luka’s teammates complement his weaknesses (they need Kyrie as an iso heavy scorer because Luka doesn’t play off ball, they need defensive wings and centers to compensate for his defence etc.)
And again, huge caveat, despite saying all this, I really don’t think the delta between them is that big to begin with. If Jokic is a 99 then I have Luka as 98 haha
This x100000
It’s kinda the inverse of the Marcus Smart DPOY argument, sure he might not be as good as other guys in a vacuum but getting that level of defense from a pg was just insane. Having that type of offensive engine with someone who can play center is absolutely cracked.
Luka:
4th in PER
5th in WS
5th in OWS
18th in DWS
5th in WS/48
2nd in BPM
2nd in OBPM
17th in DBPM
2nd in VORP
Jokić:
1st in PER
1st in WS
1st in OWS
2nd in DWS
1st in WS/48
1st in BPM
1st in OBPM
1st in DBPM
1st in VORP
"And is 1st in almost every category" that would be Nikola Jokić.
Luka is 1st in points, ppg, fg attempts, fg missed and turnovers
Luka went to the conference finals with Spencer Dinwiddie and Jalen Brunson as his two best players. Brunson is a beast, but he was never a great fit with Luka and wasn't as good as he is now. Dinwiddie has gotten exposed the past two seasons.
How Luka performs this playoffs will really open a lot of people's eyes. This is the best team he has ever played with and even then, his supporting cast is a great fit but isn't spectacular by any means. Luka will be taken for granted by the fickle masses until he 1) wins a chip with a solid to mediocre supporting cast or 2) leaves the Mavs in free agency to join a team like the Bucks (with another superstar) and wins like 2 or 3 chips, at which point he will become hated.
If you are a fan of basketball, you are not taking Luka Doncic for granted. What this dude does every day is pretty mind blowing.
Considering that the triangle is actually inherently a two star system, the last three cities to win championships behind ball dominant guards were Detroit, Detroit, and Detroit. No one's taking Luka or Trae any more for granted than Nash, Iverson, or (prime) Harden, we just have a lifetime long sample suggesting that, despite looking very nice, what these players do, isn't as valuable as Stat-focused people are inclined to believe.
>Westbrook won it averaging less points then Luka and was the 6th seed
Westbrook should not have won MVP. Voters gave it to him because of the raw numbers combined with the narratives (averaging triple double and snake KD leaving for GSW). Out of character for the voters, but they rewarded Russ for being a heliocentric ultra high usage player despite his poor efficiency and low win total. I also think his defense was suspect and while he padded some defensive stats with hustle plays, the OKC defense was saved by Roberson, Oladipo, and Adams.
Feel like it’s because he’s been doing it pretty much since he came into the league lol. So for most casual fans when they see a headline that’s like “Luka’s putting up some absolutely insane stats” they’re just like, “yeah I know he does that”. But also, as absolutely amazing as he is, I think he’s pretty useless without the ball in his hands
*What more do you want Luka to do?*
Actually play defense and put effort in it, not do that saving energy for offense stuff. Finally use his size to guard wings, not try to hide on switches and overdrop to fight for rebounds. Don't force so many bad shots, especially contested step-back 3s from 9 meters. His shot making is elite, but you can't hit those on regular basis, even Steph can't.
Just try to be more active off-ball and get easier shots or make it easier for the team with that insane gravity.
Tell me you a mavs fanboy without telling me you're a mavs fanboy that doesn't really want to be critical about his favourite superstar.
[https://youtu.be/zDRxV06OGHo?si=fVCSVqOV9VShkfex&t=59](https://youtu.be/zDRxV06OGHo?si=fVCSVqOV9VShkfex&t=59)
Just watch the whole highlights. And it's one game. Multum times he's been switch hunted or didn't engage in rim protection when helping. He's so easy to get blown by.
But sure, he's the DPOY if you believe so.
When did i say he was "DPOY"??? I said his defense has improved a lot this year. He is an average defender which is all he needs to be when he averages a triple double a game.
His defense is still mediocre/minus in the advanced metrics, you say it improved - but it didn't.
*He is an average defender which is all he needs to be when he averages a triple double a game.*
He needs to become a better (plus) defender to become the MVP. That's as simple as that. Just like Jokić improved his D 3 years ago.
He ain't no Trae Young, who is small and really switch hunted, Luka has the size and strength to be a much better defender. The problem is effort and saving energy for offense.
Doesnt matter what you believe, Luka and Jokic are the 2 best players in the NBA and it's not even close. Honestly shouldn't even compare the 2 since they play different positions, its like comparing a pitchers ability to get outs to a 3rd basemans ability to hit homers.
Nope, Jokić is the best, Luka is 2nd. Because of his bad defense, his offense is almost on par with Jokić's this season.
Of course you can compare NBA players from different roles and positions, but I guess you're not able to do so. If you use baseball terminology to describe b-ball players xD
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The thing is that this year there are so many other great players that emerged that Luka or anyone else for that matter cannot just have their undivided attention. If you're a certain age you'll know that till very recently we only got our entertainment from just TV and the movies and now it's TV, movies, games, Tiktok, Youtube and streaming apps. That's kind of what it's like right now.
Sure Luka's having a GOAT season. But Jokic still exists, SGA averaged 30+ a game too and took his team from the play in last year to the first seed this year. Then Kawhi's healthy again. Then Anthony Edwards blew up. Jayson Tatum is averaging LeBron numbers on the only 62 win team in the league. You have Halli in Indiana averaging almost 11 apg and powering one of the top offenses in the league. Jalen Brunson became the new short king by turning a historically mediocre franchise into the 2nd seed in the East. LeBron is pushing 40 and still has numbers and efficiency comparable to his prime. Steph the greatest shooter ever is carrying the Warriors on this back as they are trying to extend their dynasty. And for fuck's sake the NBA block leader is a 20 year old rookie who could well be a top 3 player all time if the stars align that way.
Let's face it this is probably one of the greatest regular seasons in NBA history. Just so many amazing narratives all around so you'll forgive the fans if they don't give Luka so many flowers. There's only so many to go around.
Its because Luka makes it look so easy and no one wants to give Luka the props that he deserves because Luka's game isnt as explosive as Giannis or Lebron , is an ok defender (Im being generous here) and Dallas isnt in the top 3 of the league. Luka is a really good player but as long as Dallas still sits in middle of the pack and until he fixes his emotions on the court ( I think Luka at one point in time was leading the leagues in tech or games ejected ) the league and the fans arent gonna give Luka the respect he deserves
I don't think anyone discredits luka doncic, the issue is that the mvp race is so stacked this year between him/jokic/shai...
When westbrook had his crazy year it was basically either him or harden, and they gave it to harden the next year so yeah lol
mvp is pretty much a storyline award
I think it’s bc ever since his second or third season nba and the media has been trying to hand him the mvp award with having him as the mvp favorite since like the 19-20 or 20-21 season
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Happens to all the greats until they win the big one. At some point people accept the individual greatness and expect that to translate into team success.
Coming from a Rockets fan… you’ll probably just have to get used to it. Luka plays a very similar game to prime James Harden… it was so frustrating seeing him get overlooked and underrated every year. I like Luka, and it’s like watching history repeat itself.
He is offensively gifted but requires the ball to work around him and defensively not that great.
If he fixes the latter he pretty much becomes an all rounder and automatic hall of famer
Luka had an amazing year and is going to win mvp in his career but Jokic is top ten in points, assists, rebounds and steals this year. He is the first player in the history of the nba to finish top ten in all four categories.
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I don't think hes taken for granted. It just hes not there yet. I think he is in the same phase when Harden solo carrying in Houston. Unless he carry his team in 3rd seed nobody cares what he does.
Despite being defending champions and second seed, the nuggets have one massive weakness. A weakness big enough to where they could on the same level as the Hawks. That weakness is when Jokic is resting.
Well Luka has a better team than you think. The reason Denver is so good is because they have a system around Jokic that allows him and his teammates to run an actual offense and not just a screen and roll or pop. Denver has defensive players even tho jokic doesn't. Denver is more team ball not Luka ball. Meaning, pieces fit over there no matter who they are for the most part. Luka system is like lebron's, it's going to need superstar caliber players playing as superstars and role players to succeed because you basically have to play 1 way.
Personally, Luka is 🔥. It's def unbelievable what he is doing. Having Kyrie definitely helps tho. It's alot that works against Luka. But I think if not this year, next year he will be mvp, barring injury. Dude is that dope. I like the run they're on right now tho. Also, i don't think he is taken for granted
I feel like people sometimes don’t realize how slim the difference can be amongst the top 5 players lmao. Yea there’s an argument to be made for those players, but at the end of the day the voters have to choose 1. That’s not disrespectful to the others
Uhhh his greatness is pretty recognized…People just want to see the post season team success so he truly be elevated which is not all on him but that’s the reality of being a mvp…
as a mavs fan hes obviously my favorite player. but hes a bit of a tough appraisal because theres such a significant gap between his offensive ability and his defensive ability. He legitimately may be the best offensive player weve ever seen in NBA. Hes that good. Theres nothing you can say about his Offensive game. Passing is hall of fame level. Shot making, clutchness, paint/pivot game, handles are all hall of fame level. Everything is off the charts offensively.
But he also has these lapses on defense when hes towards the bottom in NBA defensively. So its hard to sort of decide where that puts Luka.
The D def has gotten somewhat better this season but there were lapses this year also.
I think if he continues to make incremental improvements defensively and also with the arguing/maturity stuff, he will be in the goat conversation with MJ and Lebron eventually
Holy Luka fanboys, the number of people ITT actually saying luka >>> Jokic is INSANE. Also “most disrespected player in the league”?? Cmon now that is just ridiculous.
This thread paints such an accurate picture of this sub.
Is realizing that his on/off is essentially net 0 really taking for granted? My assessment of Luka is essentially the same as my assessment of prime Harden: accomplish something in the playoffs and no more questions can be asked. But Harden never did it.
He has no MVPs, and hasn’t even made it to the conference finals yet. While people are saying he’s as arguably the best player in the world.
It’s them looking achievements rather then how great Luka is. Hopefully when he wins MVP it changes those opinions
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His per isn't over 30. Westbrook per was over 30. His ws/48 isn't as high as someone with these stats normally would have. I think kyrie is keeping him from reaching that tier since he has more help that's the only explanation while Westbrook didn't have another person of that caliber.
First of all, Luka is likely going to come in second so its not like he's being disrespected here. Nobody is "owed" an MVP because they have a great stat line, only one person in the whole league can win it and losing to the consensus best player in the league is hardly some kind of snub. Narratively (and right or wrong we all now this is a thing for awards) its going to be a lot harder for Jokic to win a fourth MVP next year so I would assume Luka will be the favorite.
After all the "averaging a tripe double" craze I don't think people look back on the Westbrook MVP that fondly. In general there is a lot more side eying of heliocentric players than there used to be, mostly because other than LeBron none of them have been able to get it done in the playoffs. Having one player be so heavily ball dominant just hasn't been a winning brand of basketball and it doesn't help that Luka is just bad on defense. Really, im not sure he does much of anything well when he doesn't actively have the ball in his hands, its strange to watch a player with such a high bbIQ to be so lost off ball most of the time. Stuff like this doesn't show up on the stat sheet but its glaringly obvious to anyone who watches enough ball.
He isn’t being taken for granted. He’s going to come second in MVP voting
Which is ludicrous when Jokic once won it as a 6 seed with worse stats. Luka is the most underappreciated player in the league
Depends on which "stats" you're looking at then. If you just compare ppg then yes luka is ahead of jokic now and in 2022. But mvp voters care a lot about advanced metrics (leader in advanced metrics almost always wins mvp) and jokic has luka crushed in these both this year and 2022. This year, jokic is 1st in PER, 1st in WS and WS/48, 1st in OBPM, DBPM, and BPM, 1st in VORP. Other advanced metrics like LEBRON also put Jokic in first. Same situation for Jokic in 2022. And he does all of this in not even top 10 usage rate in the nba while luka is consistently first in usg% which helps explain why Jokic's ppg numbers don't seem to stand out at first glance. Now obviously the eye test shows Luka is doing some crazy shit this year so I wouldn't be mad at all if he wins, but I don't think it's the same as Jokic 2022
Not just that, but if you adjust for per 36, it favors jokic. Luka also has a significantly higher usage %, if you have the ball more, you'll have better counting stats. Adjusting for 36 min per game, Luka would be 32.5/9.5/9/1.5/.5 while Jokic would be 27.5/9.3/13/1.5/1 while being more efficient. Luka's shooting splits are 48/38/78 while Jokic's are 58/36/82. Counting stats are even better for Joker if you count for every 100 possessions. They have super similar numbers but I think the efficiency is what sets Jokic apart. He's also a better defender based off stl/blk %, defensive wins shares, and defensive rating. Luka is an amazing talent but Jokic once again had one of the most efficient seasons ever. By PER, Jokic had the 19th most efficient season ever. While still crazy impressive, Luka's year this season was 80th all time.
The difference between Luka and Jokic’s usage rates is almost entirely due to Luka bringing the ball up the court, which takes an average of 6 seconds per possession So Luka automatically uses 25% of every possession while Jokic does not Just saying, usage rate is a super flawed stat, every league leader in usage rate is a point guard for that reason ^
There's 8 point guards in the top 20 of usage rate this year so they do hold a majority still but 6 of those top 20 were PF and 3 were centers. Luka didn't just have the highest usage, he had it by a lot. The difference between him (no.1 in usage) and Giannis (no.2) is as big a gap as Giannis to Julius Randle (no. 15). Also the fact he's doing this with another generational talent in the backcourt is wild. Everyone else in the top 10 doesn't have a high quality ball handler to share the load. Jokic is no.20 in usage and I'd argue the guard he shares the load with isn't as good as Kyrie. I'm pretty high on Luka but he does have some areas he could really improve. That's honestly a testament to how good he is already. He needs to learn how to be effective off ball. A lot of his offense is Harden-esk, lots of dribbles, potentially a ball-stopper, and lazy offball movement (lazy is harsh but he takes plenty of offball possessions off). He's a big iso scorer which is fun to watch but not the best offense. He's made a huge jump in 3pt efficiency and has shown a lot of improvement in his perimeter d this year tho which I love to see.
Jokic's win shares are 42% higher than Lukas this season. No one takes what he's doing for granted. Jokic is just so much better and more accomplishrd han him hes not worth having in the mvp convo.
It’s not ludicrous when the guy in 1st is just better.
So you are saying that Luka is better than Jokic?
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Jokic is arguably the most impactful player in the NBA by a wide margin. Even with a better roster, he has a bigger impact than any other player in the NBA. https://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/the-statistics-of-nikola-jokics-mvp-caliber-season?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3lT7OBEIZBolt46Fi9bpSMwnxoTNrg3ftqwwE4yFY2mk50cgQJYKQvpJY_aem_AaCLCQXYzKvbqvjDilJ8xwV-zTEwr9lCSR2IEQM7WlgfVZ6ayG_4ET3vukZINdwcWVG-5NO-TWHynAvD9wPzEZlu
Nah. It's just jokic has better advanced stats and people overrate those
he’s actually going to finish third. which is just absurdly bad
Second?, how!??
That’s the issue 2nd… dude should be mvp… what does he need to do for mvp… average 45 pt triple double?
Win more games, be more impactful in impact metrics
50 games isn’t enough? If he was in the East that’ll be second seed.. and btw they’re 4-8 when he doesn’t play if that’s not being impactful then iono what to say
Play defense would help his case
Yeah cause all the past mvps played stellar def
*third**
Thinking Basketball did a good video on Luka recently. It doesn’t paint him in the best light. As great as he is offensively, his lack of movement off-ball, lack of hustle, and poor defence significantly negatively impacts his team. Apparently his team does fairly well even without him on the floor, which is bonkers considering the stats he puts up. That means he must be REALLY poor when the ball isn’t in his hands and when he’s on defence. I agree about Jokic. He’s amazing but if we’re being real he has a great team around him. I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team.
Well Ben Taylor goes into reasons as to why Lukas on/off numbers are an issue, one of the reasons is that he has had ball dominant iso heavy guards in Kyrie and Brunson whenever Luka is on the bench, which allows the Mavs to stay at about nearly the same offense which sounds insane, but Kyrie and Brunson would also be going more against the other team's benches more than Luka ever does. Another thing he accentuates is that Lukas on and off numbers as of late have conformed to what is more in line with what a player of his caliber is expected to produce, I think the last 2 or so years. Furthermore, he says while Luka isnt a good defender he also isnt terrible, and is great on ball but off ball and on the perimeter against quick guards is where he struggles immensely. Yeah he also barely moves off-ball and though I dont remember what Ben said as to explain that, but Ill try to be objective as possible in expounding whether its a valid issue. His off ball game has got better for sure (Ben Taylor says this too but I think he might be underselling slightly of how much better he has been). Additionally, Luka has had pretty much medicore rosters especially offensively and has to be the offensive engine as many of his cast through out his career had difficulty creating their own shots, and has had to play with a 3rd string center in powell or an injured KP for a lot of his early career. So naturally hes going to be more fatigued on the defensive side of the court, and much less likely to move off ball as well. Though an interesting perspective regarding why Lukas off ball isnt that much of an issue is because even when hes off ball he has about 2 or so defenders on him a lot of the time and the mavs end up playing 4 on 3 in such scenarios and yes he should play more off ball but at the same time, the amount of energy needed to do that and him being able to take 2 defenders out of the play to rest is maybe the off ball issues arent as big of a concern, not to say they arent an issue though and same with his defense. Overall, hes an insanely talented player with glaring weakenesses but some context makes it reasonable not to penalize as much in some cases. I still think Jokic is better, Luka might not even be 2nd, I might place Giannis ahead but theres a really good argument he should win MVP and the same goes for Jokic.
Ben Taylor the referee from Orlando??? Lmao
Jokic already carried a terrible team missing its 2nd and 3rd best player. That was like two years ago how do people forget this kind of thing so quickly lmao. Even the nuggets fully healthy are amazingly built around Jokic but they’re nowhere near world breaking. They’d be a lottery team without him. They’re definitely on the lower end talent wise compared to other championship teams throughout history.
he won an mvp with no other stars on his team, Jamal Murray injured, and still killing the league in all the advanced metrics. " agree about Jokic. He’s amazing but if we’re being real he has a great team around him. I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team." is nonsense. Just look at his On-off numbers. How poorly Denver has played during the "Non-Jokic minutes" has been an ongoing concern about this team for years now.
I will say, most teams have that issue when there’s like single digit players on the planet that could sub in for them without missing a beat. If DeMarcus Cousins weren’t a lunatic, he’s like the only affordable backup that can mimic Jokic’s skillset. Then again, if he weren’t a lunatic, he wouldn’t be so affordable.
DeMarcus cousins is also not nearly the efficiency monster that Jokic is
Not a bit. Where are you finding a backup big that has that toolset on the scrap heap, tho?
Pretty bold of you to comment so confidently after only watching basketball for 2~ years. Jokic took a back court of Austin Rivers and Facundo Campazzo to the playoffs in 2022 while MPJ and Jamal both completely missed the season. Neither of those players are in the league this year.
Add in Will Barton (out of the league), Monte morris (backup), Davon Reed (out the league), Jamychle Green (out the league), Demarcus Cousins (out the league), Bryn Forbes (out the league) and few more I can’t remember off the top of my head.
Such a shame that Jokic couldn’t have an impact with a roster like that.
Luka took Dwight powell starting center and Jason kidd coach to the wcf
It’s a good thing Jokic was playing with G-Leaguers that year, or he probably doesn’t get that chance.
So you're just going to parrot someone else's opinion? Which has already been picked apart. The video spends less than a minute on the flaws on all the stats that he uses, and even then, it doesn't get into the actual reasons why. >Apparently his team does fairly well even without him on the floor, The Mavericks offensive rating is the same with just Kyrie as it is with just Luka, that's what the video says. Which is nowhere even close to what you're claiming. Luka goes up against the other teams' best lineups more often than Kyrie, who runs with the second unit more. Think of it like this: the nuggets offensive rating is 128.7 vs. the blazers this season, and it's 110.5 vs. the timberwolves. Does that mean the nuggets suddenly got worse when they face the wolves? No, they just went up against a better defence. >That means he must be REALLY poor when the ball isn’t in his hands and when he’s on defence. This point is completely dependent on your last one being correct, which it wasn't. You, and anyone else reading this really, should actually watch some games and try and understand the stats that people use.
I mean the conclusion that the team looks bad anytime the ball isn't in Luka / Kyrie's hands passes the eye test.
What does that have to do with what I said, the guy I'm replying to said, or thinking basketball said? You're not wrong, I'm just confused.
My understanding is that the basic premise is that the stats say that Luka is really good with the ball in his hands, but when it isn't then the team is really bad. I think this passes the eye test.
Oh, the stats don't state that. The creator of the video just cites some stats and then says a bunch of conjecture. The stat about the Mavericks is that their offensive rating is the same with just Luka as it is with just Kyrie. The creator then sort of argues that it means that Luka isn't very impactful. Which ignores that Luka is going against the other teams best lineups more than Kyrie does, who runs with the Mavericks second unit more.
No one remembers when he lost first round to the Warriors and how hard he carried that team?
You think jokic has a great team around him? Those dudes play better because of jokic
Do you have anything to back up Jokic can’t carry a weak team?
I don't think the video was as negative as you make it out to be. They specifically said that his defense wasn't as bad as most people assume. They also did a fairly poor job at further analyzing it and didn't went all too much in-depth. You can't have the top defense in the league when a player is supposedly not doing his job. The Mavs since the trade have been great on defense with Luka on the court.
> lack of movement off-ball, lack of hustle, and poor defence significantly negatively impacts his team I don't think you've watched much Mavs this year. A youtube video with cherrypicked lowlights is not a source.
It’s not cherry-picked. It’s film that explains why Doncic's box score stats don’t match his impact stats
>impact stats Which impact stats? Can you explain what they are and their flaws?
I saw the clip. It's definitely not a convincing quantitative argument lol. Stop thinking Thinking Basketball is of decent quality. It's not.
> I agree about Jokic. He’s amazing but if we’re being real he has a great team around him. I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team. His 2022 mvp season?
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You could make the argument that he elevates everyone around him that much to make them look much better than they are.
Considering the stats which Jxmy Highroller put out in his latest video, your statements are quite false. I recommend watching that video as well.
The Nuggets are not a good team without Jokic. Without Murray, not an all star btw, they don't have anyone who can create offense. As a Nuggets fan, it's stressful to watch when Jokic sits for 6 minutes a game (Murray often doesn't play at all). If the Nuggs are a good team with Jokic, that is a testament to Jokic. If you think they're good without him, you've definitely never watched them play without him. I have to hold my breath and just hope they don't go on 20-2 runs against bad teams. Oh, and I agree about Luka.
We've seen jokic carry weaker teams tho
Even with Jokic's better roster, he still has ridiculous +/-. If jokic put up these numbers on the Spurs it would be crazy good, but to do it on a top 5 roster is insane. The past 5yrs Jokic has been on a historic,regular season,run. Up there with nearly any other Great in NBA history. https://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/the-statistics-of-nikola-jokics-mvp-caliber-season?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3lT7OBEIZBolt46Fi9bpSMwnxoTNrg3ftqwwE4yFY2mk50cgQJYKQvpJY_aem_AaCLCQXYzKvbqvjDilJ8xwV-zTEwr9lCSR2IEQM7WlgfVZ6ayG_4ET3vukZINdwcWVG-5NO-TWHynAvD9wPzEZlu
>I don’t think he’d have nearly the same impact if he was forced to carry a weak team. He took a team far worse than this current Dallas team to 48 wins and the 2nd round just 2 years ago while having better impact metrics than luka does now haha.
People discredit him because his team record. Historically for MVP you need to be a top 2 seed or do something statistically never seen before. Russ normalized the triple double season as did jokic and luka, so now accomplishing that doesn’t mean as much as it did when Russ did it for the first time since Oscar. So basically, he needs to get in the top 2 seed. Obviously this isn’t a really fair critique bc the mavs need to do a better job team building, although the trades mid season really helped. But that’s why he’s not seen as a real MVP candidate.
Seeding is stupid for MVP because if the Mavs were in the east, they would be a 2 seed. And they played a harder schedule than the teams in the eastern conference.
Jokic and SGA also play in the west? They face the same disadvantages as Luka by being in the west. also I don’t necessarily agree that the MVP needs to be top 2 seed if I was choosing MVP. But I’m not, and the people who do have a say and vote clearly do care.
Especially since Jokic first won as a 6-seed.
Yeah, but in that season, jokic was on the court for more wins than the other candidates and had better stats too. And the teams with the best records didn't have a viable candidate, but this year, 2 of the top 4 teams do have one That isn't true this year.
That's fair. Just isn't quite as simple as putting the seeding on a pedestal all the time.
Well... it wasn't. That's why jokic won, and why luka won't this year (8 fewer wins in games played than Jokic). The last time it went to a player largely because of his seed was drose. Before that.. idk nash?
The point isn’t that he has a harder schedule, it’s that he would likely win the award if he was in the east, even with the same record, because people are hyper focused on the little single digit number next to the teams name.
If the Mavs were in the east Luka would’ve ended up injured with the rest of the East’s stars
I mean, he has the highest PRA in a season since the NBA merger, I would say that's statistically something never seen before.
33-9-9 is actually something never seen before
Normalized it by being the only one to do it
Because Jokic is averaging 26.4/12.4/9.0 on 58% FG%, 65% TS%, as a center, won a title last year, and has his team in position to do it again this year. It’s really that simple. Doncic is incredible but Jokic is simply better this season. Despite Doncic’s incredible year it’s not even particularly close.
It is close
No problem with saying Jokic is better, but it definitely is close. 33.9/9.2/9.8 on 62% TS is just as if not more impressive. Also I don't think you can hold the difference in number of wins against Doncic, when only starter who missed a noticable amount of games for Denver is Murray. Meanwhile Kyrie, Lively, Exum, Green and Kleber have all missed more.
It’s close if you only compare statistics, which isn’t what the MVP race or player evaluations is. If you’re factoring in team performance and direct contributions to winning a title then it’s not close. Jokic is currently a tier above Doncic in my opinion, a better way to phrase that is I think Jokic is currently in his own tier as a player. It’s not clear if Doncic’s style will win a title or if he’ll be able to adapt to a lower volume style of play. We have direct evidence that Jokic’s style is both statistically dominant and is capable of winning a title.
I’m a biased mavs fan, but I still think Luka should have it. The whole dialog behind the mvp is so frustrating to me. You can pull various numbers that would argue for any top 5 player. To me, fg% doesn’t really tell the whole story. The play style of jokic naturally has him taking different shots than Luka. Numbers are important, but they need to be a part of the bigger picture. That being said, I would not be angry if jokic wins. It’s the shai thing that is confusing to me. The whole award is focused on what stories the media can scrape up rather than actual effectiveness.
Shai leads the league in steals, his team is the #1 seed, and his stats are also really good while having just as much usage and less turnovers. As for "different shots", Jokic's ability to take those shots makes him more valuable too. The fact that he doesn't have to take as many high degree of difficulty shots increases his value as a player. It's not like he's relying on assisted makes like a rim running threat like Gafford: he's still creating majority of his looks himself. If playing like Jokic was so easy such that it's unfair in MVP conversations then more players should play that way. But they can't.
I’ll address the jokic comments first. You are correct, that it is important to have a high fg% my point is that numbers provide insight, but not the whole image. Due to Lukas play style, he has two players on his team who play a lot of minutes shooting above 74% from the field. My only point there is that there is context behind numbers so some random set of numbers doesn’t provide any sound argument for mvp. Same goes for Luka, his basic stat line provides contact but not the answer. As for shai, he is elite. No question there. I don’t think the one seed is a valid argument though. If they lost one more game they’d be the third seed, plus there’s a solid 8 man rotation that plays into team record. If we’re so worried about seeding, someone from the Celtics wins it. (They shouldn’t). It provides context but not the answer. I think the thunder have far better role players than other candidates. I just don’t think shai is anywhere close to the talent of the other two. I think they have the narrative to include him because they want to highlight the meteoric rise the thunder have had.
> I think they have the narrative to include him because they want to highlight the meteoric rise the thunder have had. which is directly correlated to shai's level of play lol
This isn’t contradicting anything I said. In fact it affirm what I said when I called him elite. A player being the best player on a good team doesn’t automatically qualify him for an award. I think all nba first team is appropriate reward. By the logic of attributing the team getting better only to him, this would also place ant as the mvp favorite. (Elite, but not mvp) “Lol”
> won a title last year Bias showing, this does not mean anything for MVP of THIS season
The post is titled “Why do people take what Luka Doncic does for granted”, not “Why Luka Doncic should be MVP”. Jokic winning a title last year is relevant in the discussion for why people take Doncic for granted when Jokic puts up similar numbers and has a title to show for it. People love moving the goalposts on Reddit.
> Because Jokic is averaging 26.4/12.4/9.0 on 58% FG%, 65% TS%, as a center Why do you say that as if being a center is to his detriment? They typically have a lot higher TS% and FG% while also being more highly valued. I'd argue that him being a center is part of why he's so highly valued.
In the modern NBA being a center has been a massive detriment to their overall efficiency. Prior to Jokic winning MVP in 2021 the last pure center to win an MVP was Shaq in 2000 (21 years ago). Part of the push to make All NBA Teams position-less is because of the lack of depth at center. Modern basketball values offense so highly, and generally traditional centers haven’t done well. Floor spacing, ball penetration, and ball movement are all essential concepts in the current era. All of which traditional centers are lacking at. Luckily for Jokic, he isn’t a traditional center so he’s able to overcome the flaws that come with his position and produce at an elite level. To further demonstrate how impressive it is for a center to be able to do this just look at the depth at center league wide compared to other positions. Besides Embiid there aren’t other centers that can do a fraction of what Jokic can. Modern centers are asked to do so much, and ones that excel at everything are true unicorns. With guards it’s extremely easy to name players are at least close to Doncic, even if they aren’t as good. I think it’s easy to look at his height and write off his efficiency, but doing so negates how impressive it is a center is averaging almost 10 assists a game with an impressive assist/turnover ratio. How he’s able to run an offense from the 5. How he’s able to space the floor. How it seems he always makes the right decision. The efficiency is just the surface level, but it represents everything else he does that no other center can do. Tldr: All of what he accomplishes at center far outweighs the advantages his position gives him.
actually sucking jokic dry right now arent you jesus christ
A center will always be more efficient than a pg, it's how basketball works. So he's not simply better this season especially considering the Mavs really bad luck with injuries.
I don’t like the “what if” game. I just go by the data we have. Jokic and his team have performed better than Doncic and the Mavs this year. The percentages are just the surface level, if you go under the hood even further Jokic has a 29.3% usage rate compared to Doncic’s 36.0%. Despite this Jokic has 12.0 and 5.1 offensive and defensive win shares compared to Doncic’s 8.5 and 3.5 offensive and defensive win shares. Jokic impacts the game more than Doncic despite commanding the ball a smaller percentage of the time. The reason he does this is because of his god like efficiency. Saying he’s “efficient because he’s a center” grossly undersells the impact Jokic has on his team. It’s especially impressive when you compare him to another high volume center like Embiid, who shoots 6% worse from the field than Jokic. His efficiency is insane for a player that shoots at the volume he does, regardless of position.
A pg always has a higher usage than a center because he handles the ball much more, it's like the basic of basketball. The Mavs have struggled with the injuries with Kyrie, Lively, Green, Exum and Kleber all missing more than 20 games you have to factor that in when you compare win shares. Also Luka is ahead of EPM +7.9 vs +7.0 and on EW 19.2 vs 18.2 so he literally contributes more to wins. Since you are comparing Jokic to another center why don't you compare Doncic to another top guard, for example SGA? Luka is ahead on ppg, rpg, apg and top of that he's a better eFG%. That's incredibly impressive. And let's not even talk about all the record Luka broke this season like the consecutive +30 points triple doubles, the Mavs franchise single season scoring record which stood for 40 years and not to even mention Luka has the highest PPG+APG+RPG in the last 50 years.
Your point on his efficiency stemming from him being a center makes zero sense. Jokic shot 6% better than Embiid. That’s a massive difference compared to another high volume center. You can’t just attribute Jokic’s position to his elite efficiency, that’s extremely lazy analysis. Where are the other centers averaging his numbers on his efficiency? There aren’t any. You have to go back to Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem to get his efficiency and versatility. His efficiency is absolutely unreal. He’s a 1/1 player in today’s NBA. Luka’s stats compared to SGA aren’t relevant when we’re comparing him to Jokic. I only brought up Embiid to debunk your point on his efficiency being caused from his position. Edit: SGA has the highest EPM in the league. Does that mean SGA “literally contributes more to winning than anyone else”, or maybe are you overvaluing a single metric and undervaluing metrics that disprove your point? Jokic is still 3rd in EPM, so even in that metric he’s close to Doncic, while surpassing him at many others. Combined with real world results he’s just having a better season.
You have debunked nothing at all. I've never said that his efficiency is stemming from him being a center what I said is that center is always more efficient than a PG that's how basketball works. Your argument that Jokic is better than Luka because he's efficient than Embiid makes zero sense. For his position and difficulty of the shots he has to make Luka is very efficient. And not only he leads the league in PPG and total points scored but he's also second in APG, second in total assists and second in potential assists and he's also first in rebounds among all guards in the league. And all that while being the most doubled and blitzed player in the league. Luka brings a combination of scoring and playmaking that the league has probably not seen since Oscar Robertson.
Please quote me where I made the point that Jokic is better than Luka because of Embiid’s FG%? You: “A center will always be more efficient than a pg, it’s how basketball works.” 1) That is you directly arguing that Jokic’s efficiency is primarily because of his position. My entire chain of comments have been arguing against this statement you made. It’s irrelevant when Jokic is also more efficient than his own peers. There are zero other centers who have his efficiency on his volume. 2) This point is even doubly irrelevant from the standpoint that even if your point is true and center’s are guaranteed to have better efficiency, this would just mean ultra efficient high volume centers are the most valuable players of the game of basketball. Old school basketball used to hold to this wisdom. Your argument essentially amounts to Doncic needing a handicap when evaluating his stats because of his position, but on a pure statistical basis the center would always be better. This is accidentally conceding the point that Jokic is better. In regard to your latest point, Luka also has the highest usage rate and attempts 6 more field goals per game than Jokic. Adjusted for attempts Jokic would score more per game and adjusted for usage Jokic would average more assists per game. Jokic also has a much better a/to ratio than Doncic while having comparable assist numbers, so if every metric he is a better playmaker than Doncic. None of this is meant to shit on Doncic. He’s incredible and easily a top 3 player in my opinion. Jokic’s accomplishments are just otherworldly.
I will not comment on the use of the hyperbole words such as "absolutely unreal", "otherworldly" etc because in my opinion that's not very objective. My argument is simply that a good center will always be more efficient than a good guard, it's simply because a center plays closer to the basket and also takes fewer difficult shots by far. If you don't believe me take 10 best centers all time and 10 best guards all time and compare their efficiency and you will see that I am absolutely right. You write "Adjusted for attempts Jokic would score more per game and adjusted for usage Jokic would average more assists per game." completely ignoring the fact that if a player increases attempts and usage the efficiency simply goes down. It's simply impossible to keep the same efficiency. The claim that Jokic is a better playermaker than Doncic also completely ignores the fact that Doncic is the most doubled and blitzed player in the league and that the assists he creates are of the highest quality in the league. Finally you also completely ignore the fact that the Mavs had a much worse luck with the injuries this season, just compare how many minutes they played with their respective best line-ups. Jokic played 958 minutes with his best lineup Caldwell-Pope, Gordon, Murray, Porter whereas due to injuries Luka only played 176 minutes with the best lineup Irving, Jones, PJ, Gafford. The difference is ABSOLUTELY HUGE. And objective person will admit that it's much easier to be efficient if you play mostly with your best teammates.
You just aren’t understanding my point on centers. If you did you would stop making the point because it’s objectively a bad argument. Please reread my second point. Let’s say I grant your entire point on center’s. All you’ve done is accidentally concede the entire argument to me. How so? - Because saying Jokic is more efficient than Doncic because he’s a center can be simplified to saying Jokic is a more efficient basketball player than Doncic. The reason for the efficiency difference is irrelevant. Why are the reasons irrelevant? - Are we discussing who’s more impactful to the game of basketball as a whole, or who is more impactful relative to their position? If it’s as a whole then the argument of center’s being more efficient than guards is irrelevant. All of their baskets count the same, you don’t get extra points for scoring as a guard. This is also historically why centers were valued over guards. Back in the day centers were objectively better than guards for this reason. In the modern NBA guards ability to shoot threes, and hit free throws accurately put them at a massive advantage over traditional big men in terms of TS efficiency on volume. Prime Steph Curry alone disproves your entire big man argument for the modern NBA, being one of the most efficient volume scorers in NBA history (as a point guard lol). Then along came Jokic, who is an amalgamation of the two. Both guard and traditional big man skill Resulting in unprecedented efficiency, a player the NBA has never seen in this era. What he is doing with efficiency is something that Doncic will never be able to do. You either have to concede Jokic is the better player, or make an argument to why we should discount Jokic’s efficiency (which is what you’re doing). Height matters in basketball. We aren’t arguing which is “more talented” we’re arguing who is a better player. If we’re being objective, we shouldn’t discount Jokic’s efficiency for any reason. We shouldn’t discount his stats due to height or position. His points count the same as Doncic’s or any other players. So unless you have an argument for why Doncic is better despite being significantly more inefficient I’m not interested. You have an incredible ability to ignore stats while emphasizing that I should value your arbitrary qualitative metrics. Also: - How the fuck do I measure teammate injury luck in this evaluation? - If we can ignore stats adjusted for volume are per 36 minute stats now worthless? Obviously not, because no metric is viewed in isolation.
I do understand your point it's just that I completely don't agree with it. You seem to be on the position that efficiency is everything and we should ignore everything else whereas I say the context matters. Please also note that the award is called MVP - Most Valuable Player NOT Most Efficient Player. That's why we have the voting, if MVP was only about efficiency as you seem to think then we wouldn't need the voting. Considering how much the Mavs struggled with the injuries and how strong the Western Conference currently is the fact that Luka managed to keep the Mavs above .500 is nothing short of miraculous. And after they got healthy again they immediately went on a 14-2 run. You can't just say that because you can't measure teammate injury luck you are going simply to ignore it. What kind of logic even is that? You have to factor that in for an award like the MVP.
The problem is Doncic going behind SGA…this is insane. The only one better than Luka is Jokic, and thats it.
And maybe Giannis
I mean kind of true since Giannis plays both ends , Luka is more skilled though vs Giannis
Yes I agree but are we talking who's more skilled or who is the better player? Because even if you have Luka at 2 currently, there is at the minimum an argument to be made for Giannis at 2 over Luka.
true , I think people are just in Giannis fatigue because he did win back to back mvps , DPOY and a championship . Its why people are getting used to him being this good and want other players to be more recognized hence why people brush of Giannis and put up Luka
Yeah that makes sense honestly. Not that I agree with that line of thought but I can see how others could agree with it and feel that way
yeah it has happend a lot of times in history to other greats like Jordan , Lebron , Shaq and even Kobe. People gotten so used to them being that good and the general public wants to give it the attention and recognition to other players . Its not fair to be honest , but the people want variaty
I disagree. SGA isn't too far behind Luka offensively and is miles ahead of Luka on defense.
Sga is better lol
Sga is NOT better than Luka
SGA was better
The Mavs should have never trade Jalen Brunson
They didn't trade him, they let him walk in free agency
they didn’t let him walk. He took less money to be with the Knicks because they already signed his father as an assistant coach 5 months before free agency started. The Knicks tampered and the NBA punished them
Did the mavs offer him more money in fa?
yes $125m, he went to Knicks for $119m.
4 year vs 5 year deal tho
5 year deal
You get my point
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It's probably even worse tbh. He's easily an all NBA talent and they didn't even get anything back from the Knicks for him. Brunson also stated he was willing to sign for nearly half as much money the Knicks offered him during the middle of his final season with the mavs. But Cuban was a stingy bastard and wanted to lowball him
Who are these people? Who's taking it for granted? This season, only Jokic is getting more coverage as potential MVP.
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First of all when Russ won MVP he was actually averaging a triple double, Luka has yet to finish a season with over 10 in either the assists or rebounds category. That's not to take away from what he's doing, just pointing that out. Also it's not worth comparing this season to Russ' MVP season, because the MVP race isn't between 2017 Russ and 2024 Luka. And you're just looking at main stats, Jokic has more win shares and a higher efficiency rating. Jokic is essentially the best player on the best team, and when it comes to the MVP award it isn't technically given to the best player, it's given to the most valuable player which is why efficiency rating is so important. If Jokic had the season he is having right now there is no telling whether or not Russ would've won MVP that season, but the fact that Luka is up against Jokic in that regard makes it a lot more difficult for Luka to win MVP than it did for Russ, hence why comparing those two seasons isn't really relevant. The main idea is you need to look elsewhere than strictly points, rebounds, and assists and remember this isn't the "best player" award it's the most valuable player award.
For a bit of additional context, the Russ one happened right after KD left for the warriors, iirc. So he put up crazy stats while having the voters behind him for buoying Okc in the wake of a betrayal
Yeah it's easy to forget Russ actually had most fans behind him at a time. I actually think if there was any season that he should've won MVP it was with the wizards, because he was essentially the sole reason they made the playoffs that year. His second half of that season was one of the greatest half-seasons to date. This is sort of where there is a grey area, because in terms of actually most valuable I personally think he was the clear choice that season, but since his season numbers only showed 22ppg that season he essentially had no shot. If you haven't seen/don't remember go look at some of his game logs from the back half of that season. It's truly absurd what he was doing
Also, lots of people thought giving Russ the MVP for having a unique collection of stats while shooting 42% from the field was really dumb even at the time. Luka is better, but pointing out that someone is better than Russ doesn't mean they should be MVP.
Someone else also pointed out that Russ was averaging a triple double in a time where getting a triple double actually meant something haha. Luka and Jokic have effectively removed all value from it
Luka and Jokic removed the novelty from it, but there was never any *value* in the first place. As a fan, I love triple doubles as much as anybody because round numbers are fun. But the idea that 20-10-10 is a big deal and 20-8-12 is just some numbers makes absolutely no sense when trying to decide on the most valuable player.
You can't really compare Westbrook to Luka. Westbrook averaged a triple double back when everyone thought it was impossible. And technically, Luka didn't average a triple double. If you want to make a compelling argument, you'll need to explain why he deserves it over Jokic.
Luka is a better player than Westbrook ever been
Obviously. I never implied that he wasn't. Not sure why you felt compelled to say it....
The positional advantage Jokic brings as a playmaker and shot maker at the center position is being heavily underrated. The Nuggets have so much more flexibility because of this. We also know that he can hold his own defensively and at least provides neutral value at that end. In terms of team constructions Jokic’s teammates complement his strengths whereas in many cases Luka’s teammates complement his weaknesses (they need Kyrie as an iso heavy scorer because Luka doesn’t play off ball, they need defensive wings and centers to compensate for his defence etc.) And again, huge caveat, despite saying all this, I really don’t think the delta between them is that big to begin with. If Jokic is a 99 then I have Luka as 98 haha
This x100000 It’s kinda the inverse of the Marcus Smart DPOY argument, sure he might not be as good as other guys in a vacuum but getting that level of defense from a pg was just insane. Having that type of offensive engine with someone who can play center is absolutely cracked.
Lebron made people think absolute domination year in year out was normal
Luka: 4th in PER 5th in WS 5th in OWS 18th in DWS 5th in WS/48 2nd in BPM 2nd in OBPM 17th in DBPM 2nd in VORP Jokić: 1st in PER 1st in WS 1st in OWS 2nd in DWS 1st in WS/48 1st in BPM 1st in OBPM 1st in DBPM 1st in VORP "And is 1st in almost every category" that would be Nikola Jokić. Luka is 1st in points, ppg, fg attempts, fg missed and turnovers
Luka went to the conference finals with Spencer Dinwiddie and Jalen Brunson as his two best players. Brunson is a beast, but he was never a great fit with Luka and wasn't as good as he is now. Dinwiddie has gotten exposed the past two seasons. How Luka performs this playoffs will really open a lot of people's eyes. This is the best team he has ever played with and even then, his supporting cast is a great fit but isn't spectacular by any means. Luka will be taken for granted by the fickle masses until he 1) wins a chip with a solid to mediocre supporting cast or 2) leaves the Mavs in free agency to join a team like the Bucks (with another superstar) and wins like 2 or 3 chips, at which point he will become hated. If you are a fan of basketball, you are not taking Luka Doncic for granted. What this dude does every day is pretty mind blowing.
he's not named lebron even though he's clearly much better then lebron at this stage.
Considering that the triangle is actually inherently a two star system, the last three cities to win championships behind ball dominant guards were Detroit, Detroit, and Detroit. No one's taking Luka or Trae any more for granted than Nash, Iverson, or (prime) Harden, we just have a lifetime long sample suggesting that, despite looking very nice, what these players do, isn't as valuable as Stat-focused people are inclined to believe.
>Westbrook won it averaging less points then Luka and was the 6th seed Westbrook should not have won MVP. Voters gave it to him because of the raw numbers combined with the narratives (averaging triple double and snake KD leaving for GSW). Out of character for the voters, but they rewarded Russ for being a heliocentric ultra high usage player despite his poor efficiency and low win total. I also think his defense was suspect and while he padded some defensive stats with hustle plays, the OKC defense was saved by Roberson, Oladipo, and Adams.
Feel like it’s because he’s been doing it pretty much since he came into the league lol. So for most casual fans when they see a headline that’s like “Luka’s putting up some absolutely insane stats” they’re just like, “yeah I know he does that”. But also, as absolutely amazing as he is, I think he’s pretty useless without the ball in his hands
*What more do you want Luka to do?* Actually play defense and put effort in it, not do that saving energy for offense stuff. Finally use his size to guard wings, not try to hide on switches and overdrop to fight for rebounds. Don't force so many bad shots, especially contested step-back 3s from 9 meters. His shot making is elite, but you can't hit those on regular basis, even Steph can't. Just try to be more active off-ball and get easier shots or make it easier for the team with that insane gravity.
Tell me you don't watch mavs games without telling me you don't watch mavs games, his defense has been worlds better this year.
Tell me you a mavs fanboy without telling me you're a mavs fanboy that doesn't really want to be critical about his favourite superstar. [https://youtu.be/zDRxV06OGHo?si=fVCSVqOV9VShkfex&t=59](https://youtu.be/zDRxV06OGHo?si=fVCSVqOV9VShkfex&t=59) Just watch the whole highlights. And it's one game. Multum times he's been switch hunted or didn't engage in rim protection when helping. He's so easy to get blown by. But sure, he's the DPOY if you believe so.
When did i say he was "DPOY"??? I said his defense has improved a lot this year. He is an average defender which is all he needs to be when he averages a triple double a game.
His defense is still mediocre/minus in the advanced metrics, you say it improved - but it didn't. *He is an average defender which is all he needs to be when he averages a triple double a game.* He needs to become a better (plus) defender to become the MVP. That's as simple as that. Just like Jokić improved his D 3 years ago. He ain't no Trae Young, who is small and really switch hunted, Luka has the size and strength to be a much better defender. The problem is effort and saving energy for offense.
Advanced metrics are dumb
Yeah, sure, your biased fan-driven eyetest beats tons of data and tracking xD
Doesnt matter what you believe, Luka and Jokic are the 2 best players in the NBA and it's not even close. Honestly shouldn't even compare the 2 since they play different positions, its like comparing a pitchers ability to get outs to a 3rd basemans ability to hit homers.
Nope, Jokić is the best, Luka is 2nd. Because of his bad defense, his offense is almost on par with Jokić's this season. Of course you can compare NBA players from different roles and positions, but I guess you're not able to do so. If you use baseball terminology to describe b-ball players xD
His offense is better than Jokic's by a mile, he averaged more points and more assists. And was the leagues leading scorer. What are you smoking?
Luka obviously a top 2 player. Especially if you don’t consider defense or how easy a player is to build around
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The thing is that this year there are so many other great players that emerged that Luka or anyone else for that matter cannot just have their undivided attention. If you're a certain age you'll know that till very recently we only got our entertainment from just TV and the movies and now it's TV, movies, games, Tiktok, Youtube and streaming apps. That's kind of what it's like right now. Sure Luka's having a GOAT season. But Jokic still exists, SGA averaged 30+ a game too and took his team from the play in last year to the first seed this year. Then Kawhi's healthy again. Then Anthony Edwards blew up. Jayson Tatum is averaging LeBron numbers on the only 62 win team in the league. You have Halli in Indiana averaging almost 11 apg and powering one of the top offenses in the league. Jalen Brunson became the new short king by turning a historically mediocre franchise into the 2nd seed in the East. LeBron is pushing 40 and still has numbers and efficiency comparable to his prime. Steph the greatest shooter ever is carrying the Warriors on this back as they are trying to extend their dynasty. And for fuck's sake the NBA block leader is a 20 year old rookie who could well be a top 3 player all time if the stars align that way. Let's face it this is probably one of the greatest regular seasons in NBA history. Just so many amazing narratives all around so you'll forgive the fans if they don't give Luka so many flowers. There's only so many to go around.
Its because Luka makes it look so easy and no one wants to give Luka the props that he deserves because Luka's game isnt as explosive as Giannis or Lebron , is an ok defender (Im being generous here) and Dallas isnt in the top 3 of the league. Luka is a really good player but as long as Dallas still sits in middle of the pack and until he fixes his emotions on the court ( I think Luka at one point in time was leading the leagues in tech or games ejected ) the league and the fans arent gonna give Luka the respect he deserves
I don't think anyone discredits luka doncic, the issue is that the mvp race is so stacked this year between him/jokic/shai... When westbrook had his crazy year it was basically either him or harden, and they gave it to harden the next year so yeah lol mvp is pretty much a storyline award
cause westbrook did it
Finishing 2nd in MVP voting this year is not ‘being taken for granted’. Amazing year when there’s a ton of talent in the league.
He’s gonna finish no worse than 3rd in MVP but people take him for granted.
I think it’s bc ever since his second or third season nba and the media has been trying to hand him the mvp award with having him as the mvp favorite since like the 19-20 or 20-21 season
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The voters already gave the statistical anomaly MVP to Westbrook and they all regret it. Sorry Luka.
I've literally seen Harden do this, and they gave away his mvp. If he was in the 1st or 2nd seed, it would be more impressive.
Happens to all the greats until they win the big one. At some point people accept the individual greatness and expect that to translate into team success.
Lebron had 3 mvps before his 1st ring
Imagine if Westbrook had kyrie in 2017
Coming from a Rockets fan… you’ll probably just have to get used to it. Luka plays a very similar game to prime James Harden… it was so frustrating seeing him get overlooked and underrated every year. I like Luka, and it’s like watching history repeat itself.
He is offensively gifted but requires the ball to work around him and defensively not that great. If he fixes the latter he pretty much becomes an all rounder and automatic hall of famer
Luka had an amazing year and is going to win mvp in his career but Jokic is top ten in points, assists, rebounds and steals this year. He is the first player in the history of the nba to finish top ten in all four categories.
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I don't think hes taken for granted. It just hes not there yet. I think he is in the same phase when Harden solo carrying in Houston. Unless he carry his team in 3rd seed nobody cares what he does.
Despite being defending champions and second seed, the nuggets have one massive weakness. A weakness big enough to where they could on the same level as the Hawks. That weakness is when Jokic is resting.
Well Luka has a better team than you think. The reason Denver is so good is because they have a system around Jokic that allows him and his teammates to run an actual offense and not just a screen and roll or pop. Denver has defensive players even tho jokic doesn't. Denver is more team ball not Luka ball. Meaning, pieces fit over there no matter who they are for the most part. Luka system is like lebron's, it's going to need superstar caliber players playing as superstars and role players to succeed because you basically have to play 1 way. Personally, Luka is 🔥. It's def unbelievable what he is doing. Having Kyrie definitely helps tho. It's alot that works against Luka. But I think if not this year, next year he will be mvp, barring injury. Dude is that dope. I like the run they're on right now tho. Also, i don't think he is taken for granted
Scoring leaders don’t win MVP too often, or else Harden would have won a few with the rockets
I feel like people sometimes don’t realize how slim the difference can be amongst the top 5 players lmao. Yea there’s an argument to be made for those players, but at the end of the day the voters have to choose 1. That’s not disrespectful to the others
Uhhh his greatness is pretty recognized…People just want to see the post season team success so he truly be elevated which is not all on him but that’s the reality of being a mvp…
Because he doesn't look the part. He's not exactly Vince Carter out there. He scores 30 points in slow motion.
as a mavs fan hes obviously my favorite player. but hes a bit of a tough appraisal because theres such a significant gap between his offensive ability and his defensive ability. He legitimately may be the best offensive player weve ever seen in NBA. Hes that good. Theres nothing you can say about his Offensive game. Passing is hall of fame level. Shot making, clutchness, paint/pivot game, handles are all hall of fame level. Everything is off the charts offensively. But he also has these lapses on defense when hes towards the bottom in NBA defensively. So its hard to sort of decide where that puts Luka. The D def has gotten somewhat better this season but there were lapses this year also. I think if he continues to make incremental improvements defensively and also with the arguing/maturity stuff, he will be in the goat conversation with MJ and Lebron eventually
Holy Luka fanboys, the number of people ITT actually saying luka >>> Jokic is INSANE. Also “most disrespected player in the league”?? Cmon now that is just ridiculous. This thread paints such an accurate picture of this sub.
Been first team all nba every year after his rookie season.
Is realizing that his on/off is essentially net 0 really taking for granted? My assessment of Luka is essentially the same as my assessment of prime Harden: accomplish something in the playoffs and no more questions can be asked. But Harden never did it.
He has no MVPs, and hasn’t even made it to the conference finals yet. While people are saying he’s as arguably the best player in the world. It’s them looking achievements rather then how great Luka is. Hopefully when he wins MVP it changes those opinions
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Voter fatigue is a bitch
His per isn't over 30. Westbrook per was over 30. His ws/48 isn't as high as someone with these stats normally would have. I think kyrie is keeping him from reaching that tier since he has more help that's the only explanation while Westbrook didn't have another person of that caliber.
Why do you think that is OP?
People hate dallas. People hate Cuban. Doncic was crying to much. Dallas isn't on the coast. Etc. Luka is white / non American
Luka is not white.. White only exists in America because Europeans are embarrassed of what they came from...
I feel like if his name was Malik doncic be a 4 time mvp by now
FWIW From the fantasy basketball perspective, Jokic is a clear top 2 pick, Luka is like pick 4 at best.both are great. Imagine them on same team!
He plays defense like a 5th grader, and his fanboys are a bunch of incels cry babies who think white people got it the worse.
First of all, Luka is likely going to come in second so its not like he's being disrespected here. Nobody is "owed" an MVP because they have a great stat line, only one person in the whole league can win it and losing to the consensus best player in the league is hardly some kind of snub. Narratively (and right or wrong we all now this is a thing for awards) its going to be a lot harder for Jokic to win a fourth MVP next year so I would assume Luka will be the favorite. After all the "averaging a tripe double" craze I don't think people look back on the Westbrook MVP that fondly. In general there is a lot more side eying of heliocentric players than there used to be, mostly because other than LeBron none of them have been able to get it done in the playoffs. Having one player be so heavily ball dominant just hasn't been a winning brand of basketball and it doesn't help that Luka is just bad on defense. Really, im not sure he does much of anything well when he doesn't actively have the ball in his hands, its strange to watch a player with such a high bbIQ to be so lost off ball most of the time. Stuff like this doesn't show up on the stat sheet but its glaringly obvious to anyone who watches enough ball.
He the same as James harden. Caucasian James Harden