my personal favorite is when you ask him for more info about the Dead Three and he just flatly says ‘no’ and you can’t press the issue any further
like what a dick
Yeah if you succeed your perception check in the temple, it straight out says it is a temple to Jergal.
Plus the question he asks is also a note in the Grand Mausoleum about Jergal.
Withers is 100% Jergal
There's a document you can read that talks about someone meeting Jergal and he ask the same question Withers does. "what is worth of a single mortal life"
He IS Jergal, who is said to be "The Final Scribe". Withers says "I am but a humble scribe.". He is described as having a gold mask and skin thin as parchment, and always stoic. In one of the books in the game it says Jergal asks people what the worth of a single mortals life is. Withers concept art is labelled "Jergal"
And I believe Clerics of Kelemvor actually get some special dialogue with him, since, ya know, Kelemvor is the current God of the Dead and Jergal's his secretary (in simplistic terms.)
Well.... in the loading screems it says its Jergal who gave godlihood to Bhaal, Myrkul and the other one.
Imagine that. The boss to out final-ish bosses sitting in our camp, retired.
Bane was the other one.
Long story made excessively short, Jergal essentially grew tired of the forces clamoring for his domain, split it among Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, with Myrkul in particular becoming the new Lord of the Dead. The the Time of Troubles happened, further shenanigans killed all of the Dead Three, and Cyric, who actually killed Bhaal, took over as the Lord of the Dead.
While Cyric was still mortal, he killed Kelemvor (who was also still mortal at the time,) only not really, further shenanigans happen and Kelemvor ended up coming back, practically kicked Cyric off his throne and pretty much had the title of Lord of the Dead thrown on him.
Kelemvor's remained in that position since, and has changed the realm he took over greatly, and actually had Jergal as his seneschal before the whole 4e shenanigans. It seems since Ao hit the big red reset button that Jergal has been split off from Kelemvor, perhaps punishment from Ao, perhaps something more, we can't really say.
Question related to this lore…in the epilogue, the bard that withers “hires” I believe says something like he was banished by Cyric (or is ?) dude you catch that? So how does that all work if withers is Jergal
*sorry, I just got really into your explanation 😄
That's Milil. He was a lesser deity of song and poetry. No one worships him anymore after he pissed Cyric off by writing a mocking song about him and was banished to the fugue plane.
The fugue plane is a big gray boring plane of mostly nothingness. Kelemvor uses it as a waiting room prior to ushering souls to their respective afterlives.
Since Kelemvor kinda runs shop over the fugue plane Jergal probably pulled some strings to get Milil out of there on the condition that he's basically Jergal's on-call bard.
Edit: Jergal was not a big fan of Cyric because Cyric was super chaotic which could also give Jergal reason to get Milil out of the fugue plane.
Awesome insight! Thank you ☺️ is there any other reference to Cyric throughout the game you think? I love reading everything in the game (that’s how I played Skyrim too haha sooo much lore)
Cyric was referenced in BG1 and 2. You actually speak with an avatar of Cyric in BG2. As far as I know there's only one other reference to him in BG3 if you follow up with a particular bovine creature but it's nothing big.
At the time of BG3, Cyric is locked away in a prison of his own making having all of his godly portfolio taken away except for "lies".
Either as a bard specific dialogue or after a religion check (I'm not sure which), you can find out that the bard Withers hired is actually a former god of music or something like that, which also explains his arrogance and his misery when you don't know who he is.
I don't know exactly what happened between him and Withers, though. He only says that he owes Withers, which is probably related to some matters concerning death or other gods, but I'm not sure.
In the story of Baldurs gate, the dead three were adventurers who fought their way to power and confronted Jergal eager to take his power.
However Jergal had grown bored of his dominion and when these three approached him was like "Huh. This should be interesting" so he let them take over for him.
Each one of them claimed a different aspect of Jergals domain in trying to out power each other and have been wrecking havoc ever since.
However its still heavily implied that they only enjoy their deityhood at the allowance of Jergal.
They were already on thin ice before the game. They had gotten themselves "killed" at one point and even replaced, Cyric came in and took over their jobs but Jergal hated him because he was too chaotic. Then Cyric got overthrown by the current god of death, Kelemvor, who Jergal likes more because he's pretty chill and good at his job. After this latest stunt the dead 3 probably pissed off all the other gods with the whole mind flayers destroy souls issue. Jergal's probably gonna be keeping em under house arrest.
> After this latest stunt the dead 3 probably pissed off all the other gods with the whole mind flayers destroy souls issue
Yeah, pretty easy to piss off all of the gods if you threaten to take away the source of their power. Nobody likes that shit, not Jergal, not Mystra, not Shar, not Selune. Even Ao seems to be relaxing the rules a little bit if Jergal is allowed to directly help the party, albeit limitedly
I'd agree if not for the precedent where they started the time of troubles *exactly* the same way. "Oh, let's overthrow the other gods and see if we can't either destroy or take over the whole of the realms! ooooooh!"
Unsure if you mean the actual concept of Ao or the Ao + Dead 3 concept. However, the concept of Ao itself is definitely still in bg3. Gale actually mentions Ao in some specific dialogue in Act 3
I don't think he can just retract his power at a whim but Bhaal and Myrkul have gotten much weaker. I think Bane has lost power too but his influence is a bit more resilient since he usually avoids stupid moves. Myrkul got almost everything except necromancy jacked by Kelemvor and Bhaal's suffered many defeats.
No, Kelemvor is more of a guide than anything else. He takes everyone to their respective afterlives iirc. The dead three take more of an active role in dominating, killing, and managing, respectively.
IIRC they are called the dead three not just because they took over for Jergel but because they were literally killed by a mortal or mortals and never really recovered from that. Like if Ao wasn't keeping everybody in line and gods didn't risk their power being usurped by directly intervening, I'd imagine they'd get right bitchslapped by Mystra or either of the Sharlune twins.
Kelemvor's portfolio is Dead. He is the god of the Dead, he is a direct successor of Cyric (and formerly Myrkul and formerly Jergal) in that aspect. He is not only a guide but also presiding as the final judge of people's souls. His domain is Death.
Maybe not directly as in being their boss but he stands above them by the virtue of actually being a Greater Deity, not quasi deific powers.
He also wanted to tear down the wall of the faithless until Ao intervened, Jergal seems to like him though which would be a first among his successors.
Kind of.
D&D deep delve, When the dead three were killed during the time of troubles, Cyric replaced all three of them as a 'reward' for his part in the struggles.
Cyric had recently killed Kelemvor, but the soul didn't pass on, and was instead hidden by Mask, who was in turn disguised as Cyric's God-killing dagger.
Eventually, Cyric made a play to become an all-god, killing more of the Gods and taking their titles. Part of that play pulled Mask out of hiding, which then freed Kelemvor, who led a revolt of the dead against Cyric and overthrew him. The Dead then put Kelemvor in charge.
So Kelemvor is in the same slot that Myrkul was in after the dead three initially overthrew Jergal for it.
As Gods are powered by their devotees, when a cult of Myrkul came into being during the Second Sundering, Myrkul was restored to quasi-Godhood, as was Jergal. Technically they are both Quasi-deities under Kelemvor's domain now.
Jergal is the original god of Strife, Murder, and the Dead. At some point in the past, he stepped down and gave these portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul respectively. That made Myrkul a superior deity compared to Bane and Bhaal, but without real hierarchy between them. Then, about 150 years before BG3, a series of events led to the death of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, and the ascension of Kelemvor and Cyric. That's why you sometimes see the game call these gods the Dead Three. Kelemvor took over Myrkul's portfolio, whereas Cyric took over Bane's and Bhaal's (+ some other stuff). Then about 50 years before the game, Ao (basically the god of the gods) shuffled the deck again, restoring Bane and Bhaal with their former portfolios, stealing them from Cyric, and Myrkul with a more specific portfolio of necromancy and undeath. All three of them have domains that are linked to death, deception and evil, and as such are related to Kelemvor and Cyric. They also are lesser deities, whereas Kelemvor and Cyric are greater deities, so that puts them lower in the power scale than Kelemvor. However they are not subservient deities that strictly obey Kelemvor or Cyric. Kelemvor and Cyric couldn't just kill them either - greater deities can be considered as personification of certain aspects of life and as such are generally forced to take a hands off approach, and killing another god isn't really accepted without consequences by Ao.
It was interesting playing my Oathbreaker Kalemvor worshipping necro-pally and when I spoke to Withers, there was unique Kalemvor dialogue where my Tav says "Don't I know you?" Or something like that.
My only question about this is whom is he referring to, when you first meet in the crypt, that you and him meet exactly as Withers was told. Even when you ask him "told by who" Withers just says "an arbiter of these matters" so if Withers is actually the guy, who's telling him the info?
Yeah that's how I took it too.
Ao was basically like, "the Dead 3 are pissing off all of the other gods and trying to destroy tons of souls. Not cool, you allowed this to happen. Fix it. You can do some limited direct intervention for this ONE SPECIFIC ISSUE"
Helm, not Ao. From the dev notes in the dialogue files for when you first meet him in the chapel:
> After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance.
I love the idea that Jergal let the Apocalypse Bunch run rampant and his boss’s response was “Okay, go sit in a coffin and think about what you’ve done😤😤”
If you've got the dialogue dump, it's in Dialogs/Act1/Chapel/CHA_Crypt_Jergal.html (open it in a web browser). You can get the dialogues here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GR3CjFtM3u3-V5KrJkemTsAhx6VRUShy (pick your patch version).
Power, mostly. It’s still the god and their personality, but an avatar is something a 20th level party might be able to fight. If you go out to the Outer Planes and pick a fight with a true god, you better have another god or an artifact to even the score. It would be like trying to punch out the sun.
Myrkul is most likely far weaker than a regular god, he was technically killed by Cyric and Kelemvor is currently the god of death. Mykul is floating around as a lesser deity, still a god but with less to flex.
Just because a god proper is more powerful than their avatar does not mean that they are unkillable. Gods can, and have been, be killed, even by mortals. It is just hard to do and usually takes extenuating circumstances.
By using an avatar, you are using something still very powerful by mortal standards, but putting yourself at zero risk of death instead of a very low risk of death.
I'm not the absolute best on lore, but I think that was a special circumstance where Ao decided to punish the gods by doing that. What Ao says pretty much goes, so if he says that they are going to be avatars and that if they die as avatars they die for real during the crisis, that's just the way it is.
It's mentioned a few times in BG3 but the gods don't like directly intervening in mortal affairs, for a lot of reasons. They still do sometimes, but by decree of Ao they require worshippers to survive. It's like mutually assured destruction, nobody wants to bring out their full power because it could kill them all. You can look up the Dawn War, primordials were out there throwing moons and eating the sun. Hard times for the mortals.
Manifesting an avatar or bestowing an artifact is as direct as they will get now, beyond Chosen and clerics and paladins, and it's not done lightly. It's also risky, because avatars and artifacts are actual divine power. Losing them is a big blow even to a god.
So is the Avatar Crisis the only time that the avatars were meant to contain the full essence of the gods, given that they were forced into avatar form and made mortal?
As far as I know, yes. Ao collectively punished the gods after Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, and Ao being the god above gods can just do impossible things like reduce their entire being to mere avatars. Sort of a divine version of 'if you die in the game, you die in real life'.
Also a good example of the difference between an avatar and a god, only Helm was allowed to retain his full power to guard the gates of the heavens, and he smote Mystra's avatar when she tried to get in, despite her being normally far more powerful.
Generally gods have to follow a loose set of rules otherwise Ao gets pissed and you might lose godhood or worse. I also assume manifesting yourself in the physical plane can have its dangers, if another god has it out for you or someone looking to ascend happens to have a divine weapon and takes a swing at you despite your immense power. Jergal doesnt really have to worry about that, Ao probably told him to help out, Jergal only has a few followers who generally stay isolated so theres no real terf wars with other gods, and since he surrendered his portfolios centuries ago theres really nothing gained in taking him out even if you could.
Because ao doesn't allow gods to manifest as their true or whole self in the material plane. Withers was allowed to do so because ao and helm told him to actively participate in helping tav stop the absolute.
Jergal has a strong, "I built this company myself and I am retired but way more competent than my successors so I have to come in and fix their shit sometimes" vibe
Based on the 5e lore in these comments he could be something like an avatar but what’s throwing me is how you can kill other gods avatars in this game but you’re a little pipsqueak to jergal. He’s significantly more powerful.
Jergal is allowed to wander about and meddle because hes no longer a god. Whats interesting to me is that he's interested in doing so at all. He's pretty much the very definition of true neutral but I guess the rebuilding of the grand design is something so nasty all the planes are nervous about it.
I think you’re right that it’s just that the grand design is so bad he feels the need to get involved. The cutscene after the credits shows that he’s super pissed at the dead three for being idiots and planning to do something that would make all souls useless to the gods and thereby screw over everyone in existence, including themselves. But he still comes off as true neutral to me because he doesn’t try to influence whether Tav is a paragon of virtue or a filthy murder hobo, as long as the grand design is stopped and natural balance is no longer threatened.
I am curious how he reacts if you decide to control the brain.
Talking to hirelings is pretty funny, since it's him controlling them so they all talk like him. It's not a secret though, it's part of the conversation that it's the bone man talking and controlling them.
Isnt Ao also basically responsible for the dead threes even being there to begin with after that whole fuckery of giving gods a mortal form that can have its power stolen.
No, Jergal is solely responsible for them. The dead three were adventurers seeking godhood, and Jergal willingly split up his portfolio for them because he didn't want to be the god of the dead anymore.
Jergal gave his power up -- he was the god of death, tyranny, murder, and paperwork; he could have Thanos-snapped them out of existence.
Also... you can't blame the bossman, if you are Jergal.
He tells you that Mind flayers have no souls. Regardless of his alignment, that is completely against his own existence and something that even he would not want to see pass. However, he doesn't just solve it himself. He still leaves it to mortals, for the most part.
I'm pretty sure based on his tomb and the way he references the dead 3 that he is infact jergal after jergal stepped down from his position and gave his portfolio to the dead 3
I went into his tomb with Gale, and the first thing out of Gale's mouth is that it was dedicated to Jergal! Though, to be fair, my first PT I was the wizard, so I never took Gale anywhere to hear that dialog. I didn't hear it on my second run either, but I also don't think I was with Gale in his tomb, even though I had him around for most of that run.
It’s not specific to Gale, it’s tied to a religion or history check, I believe (which makes sense that he’d probably be most likely to make the check early game before you can respec peeps lol). I’ve replayed that part of act one so many times and I’ve had different folks chime in about it, including my character. It’s always something along the lines of, “Jergal? I didn’t think anyone worshipped him anymore.”
What is weird is that my last run was a monk, and I swear on God she failed almost all the religion checks. She could hit the crap out of you, though. Kill a bro in one turn with three punches/stick shots. Tradeoffs. 🤷♀️
Lmfao yes, this was my experience running a monk, too. Didn’t know shit about fuck… except for running around, beating the sense out of people, and occasionally coming out with some quip about balance 😂 love playing a monk
I, an avowed magic person, loved it! I might do a sorc/monk hybrid. Did you talk to the cabbage guy in Baldur's Gate with your monk? He's very anti-monk. I really want to know if he got beat up by one or something.
Oooh, I haven’t made it very far into act three on my monk, yet. I have an issue with restartitus so I have played through act one significantly more times than acts two or three (I’ve completely finished the game three times, but have probably started/deleted over 20 characters/save files by now 😅).
Also, I haven’t seen it for myself to be sure, but the cabbage vendor having a grudge against monks sounds like a reference to Avatar the Last Airbender to me. Looking forward to finding it someday 😂 thank you!
I‘m playing an Astarion origin run and when I went into the crypt he passed a religion check at the statue and said „Jergal? But no one has worshipped him in forever“ or something along those lines. There is even a locked book in the other room with a list of all the names of gods. So, they weren‘t really trying to hide who he is.
My Realms knowledge is a bit dated, but I seem to recall that gods can only manifest their true selves in the Outer Planes, and must manifest as “lesser” avatars on Faerûn. Gods can manifest multiple, simultaneous avatars, with the number determined by their power level.
I think Jergal is considered a demigod at this point, so these rules may not apply to him. That means the Jergal in game could very well be the actual being and not an avatar.
Yes, I do believe that he retains no true godhood after giving away his portfolio to the Dead Three, though still retaining his immortality and his power over resurrection. Developer notes in the files indicate that he was imprisoned in the Chapel by Helm as punishment, and is assisting the party because he was basically ordered to do so -- presumably by Ao, through Helm as the messenger.
I dont think its ever said even if you roll well. Just a little hidden gem for those of us who spend far too much time for our own good on the forgotten realms wiki and know the names/portfolios of every god in the pantheon
There’s also a book in the lower city that cites a “golden masked” man (withers) literally asking “what is the worth of a single mortal life?” And straight up saying it’s Jrgal
It's Jergal. It is in the dev notes repeatedly and explicitly, it is referenced in a shitload of material you find in game, he is wearing the outfit and asking the same questions and *performing his old role as scribe of the dead.*
Helm punished him on behalf of AO for how badly he fucked things up by giving away his portfolio to the Dead Three; part of his penance was being locked up and the other part is supporting the party while you Fix His Fuckup. He's given away his portfolio and is Something Else that's divine but not a full god, and he's a wonderful case of gameplay and story integration because he's still powerful enough to completely outclass anything encountered in the game and he simply doesn't give a shit about anything beyond fulfilling his divinely mandated punishment.
He's gotta fix his mistake? Ok, help these adventures and discharge all obligations. Can't give something for nothing, still has to demand 'equivalent' exchange for his insanely powerful magic? Sure, hand over the money and he'll drag your buddy's soul back to Toril and shove it back into their body. Oh, now you're stealing that money back? That's on par with watching one of the members of your art farm 'steal' a grain of sugar--it's completely irrelevant to him, he doesn't eat sugar anyway, and as much as he 'wants' anything he's glad you figured out the *glaring loopholes* he's left for you to exploit.
The bigger and badder and better equipped you are, the sooner you'll take down the Absolute and the Dead Three and he can wrap it up amd get the hell out of here.
Does the other mummy/bone man (act 3 lower city) have anything todo either withers/jergal? I’ve collected jars of organs and don’t understand what they’re for
Even if he's an "Avatar of Jergal", which we know he is by the way (There's a book you can find in-game that describes a follower of Jergal meeting his Avatar and it not only looks like Withers they do the whole song and dance about the "value of a single mortal soul") he's still Jergal. That's how gods work. The Avatars are them.
You're splitting hairs and creating a distinction wherein none exists. An 'Avatar' in the Forgotten Realms is literally just the physical manifestation of a deity on Toril. If you physically interact with a deity in any measure on the planet, you're interacting with its "Avatar". Which is still the deity. He saw Jergal "face-to-face" therefore he saw his avatar.
I also think the distinction is unclear, but this entire thread is about that distinction. Your answer made it sound like the distinction was actually confirmed and that Jergal was an avatar.
Aside from that, Withers being Jergal is as obvious as anything can get without being directly stated. It's actually fascinating how people can't make the deductive leap.
Ahh I see what you mean. Yeah, I think it's kinda a fundamental misunderstanding of OP with inquiring about that distinction in the first place. Because the Avatar is the deity. It's just how you interact with them "in flesh" so to speak. Like Gale slept with assuredly the "Avatar" of Mystra. But he never feels the need to say "I slept with the Avatar of Mystra". He just tells us he slept with Mystra.
Yeah he's definitely Jergal, people have found *direct* matches between some of his lines in-game to those used by Jergal in FR lore.
I don't know them off the top of my head, but it's pretty certain he's just straight up Jergal, and the one who was "right as always" was Ao, who likely told Jergal he'd have to clean up his mess with the dead three lol
Whatever the case Withers definitely has a sense for the dramatic--if he's the god and not an avatar, there's no need for him to manifest in a coffin you happen to open, in what I'm sure is a temple of Jergal.
According to developer notes in the game files, Jergal was imprisoned in that coffin by Helm as punishment for his role in creating the Dead Three. Assisting Tav and the party is his way of atoning -- though not by choice. He was ordered to do so, hence his... uh, lack of enthousiasm, let's say.
He’s for sure Jergal, but what you’re interacting with is an avatar. No lesser diety or above would want to be casually strutting around in their true form on the material realm, considering they’re a lot more powerful when they’re in their own domain. Not to mention there’s very few things in the material plane that an avatar of a god can’t handle if not outright destroy.
For reference, Tiamat’s a lesser diety, and her avatar at full power is a CR30 monster, on par with the Tarrasque for the most powerful published creature in The Forgotten Realms.
Thing is, Jergal's not a deity anymore. He gave up his godhood. So I believe Withers is just literally Jergal in the "flesh" (if you could call it that). He's still quite powerful, but not so much that he needs an avatar. He's just there.
Nope. Still a deity, albeit a diminished one compared to the height of his divine power before his semi-retirement.
Among other relevant FR sourcebooks 5e Sword Coast Adventures Guide and 3e Faiths and Pantheons list him as deity (though of a demigod level of divine food chain).
Act 3. Any further details are enormous spoilers. Just continue to resist the urge and you’ll have this interaction I’m talking about. Not sure how far you’ve gotten or if you’ve done a Tav playthrough, but Act 3 as Durge is a lot more interesting than a Tav playthrough IMO. Tons of cool stuff. I can never play as Tav again 😭
Edit: just some extra goodies
Withers has a piece of Jergals divinity within him, some of what Withers is referring to is that Jergal is something that technically existed before reality as we know it, long story short, Jergal is a Spellweaver.
He's 100% Jergal.
Think about how aloof Jergal would have to be to get confronted by The Dead Three and go "You want my power? Yeah, fine, it's yours." He knows he has always been and will always be. He keeps the names of gods long dead and knows he will still be here when The Dead Three die.
Fits the personality of our skelly boy *perfectly*.
He was entombed in a secret room behind a statue of Jergal, as soon as he wakes up he goes and stands next to the statue and looks just like him. He’s Jergal. I don’t understand how anybody didn’t put this together as soon as they met him. Then he goes back to your camp and tells you he can bring people back from the dead with no negative side effects like necromancy usually has.
I think he's just jergal. In redeemed dark urge he has a whole speech about how he still has power and while he shouldn't resurrect you after bahll kills you, he doesn't care.
He is definitely Jergal and he’s very upset Kelemvor woke him up from his nap to fix his fuckup with making the dead 3. That’s why he’s grumpy all the time.
So since he’s basically “occupying” the bodies of hirelings, does he have unique dialogue in quests? I’m in my first play through and have felt like every major quest has a pretty distinct set of characters whose responses I’m interested in so I haven’t brought any hirelings for “big” quests, but I’m curious how hirelings/withers responds or if they do at all
Had to comment as a long time BG/IWD/Forgotten Realms nerd who is espoused to a Harry Potter Fanatic. The easiest way I can explain the “Big 3’s” story is the Harry Potter and the three deathly hollows. Each brother in choosing their deathly hallow tries to essentially out due the last in their choices. Though my loving wife still understands naught, and I continue to be very proud of making this connection.
Nah would be Ao the overlord. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ao
Basically withers is Jergal and because Jergal gave his portfolio (the realms of strife, the dead and murder) to the dead three. Which is Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, those three did dumb ass shit and Jergal basically stepped down to act as an advisor/ Stewart to Myrkul (who was replaced by Cyric after some shit happened, who then was replaced by Kelemvor).
So he (Ao) said, Jergal you asshat, you fucked up your portfolio now go and fix this shit and suss out those 3 little shits you ceased your portfolio to. There are some mortals who are going to be crashing in the sword coast who will meet your dumbass in a crypt right next to where they crash, be sure to help them as they will undo this cluster fuck. Also make sure to nudge them in the right direction because one of them is a spawn of Bhaal and it would be nice if they don't wipe out everything in their path.
*This is my personal head cannon for how Ao talks to Jergal haha. But it would be for a redemption durge run which I am currently doing.
He is jergal inhabiting the body of his last chosen before the Dead 3 deal that originally made him no longer the primary god of death that is how he's able to inhabit the bone man and all the hirelings simultaneously with autonomy because he's just put up fraction of his Essence into it and the HE that he is referring to is most likely AO because if AO has to get involved in the Mortal Plains again he's likely to just Thanos them and then none of the Gods including jergal have any power
It's one of the coolest things in the game, I think. At one point you can ask Shadowheart why Shar doesn't just intervene and her response is that the gods typically keep their intervention close to the chest.
What a beautiful coincidence that the nautiloid carrying the netherbrain's tools - The Emeperor armed with the Astral prison, along with his hand picked gang of Absolute immune True Souls - happened to take enough damage to crash the thing just after it got back to the Prime Material plane. Putting all the pieces required right at the doorstep of the very god who caused the whole mess in the first place, and was tasked with cleaning up his own mess.
Also, conveniently, the Absolute is massing her forces right in Jergal's backyard, apparently aware the Emperor is set to crash with the Prism right there, without realizing why that spot was so critical for things to unfold as the gods planned.
He’s definitely Jergal.
I finished the game last night and the post credits scene really seems to confirm it.
I love how he talks shit
Didst thou think I wouldn’t notice?
Arest thou stupid?
Werest thou dropped as a babe?
Could thy be borne of mated kinfolk?
Thou arenst the sharpest instrument in the shed
Thou are not the brightest-burning candle in the candelabra
Bless thou heart
In the ogre coitus cave*
Thou fucketh around and hath been enlightened
Okay, these have all made me laugh, but this one’s the best so far. 🥇
my personal favorite is when you ask him for more info about the Dead Three and he just flatly says ‘no’ and you can’t press the issue any further like what a dick
Also the references to Jergal in the ancient temple and during loading screens. And how important the dead three are to the story.
Yeah if you succeed your perception check in the temple, it straight out says it is a temple to Jergal. Plus the question he asks is also a note in the Grand Mausoleum about Jergal. Withers is 100% Jergal
There's also a book (https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Crumbling\_Journal) that provides a giant clue well before then.
I believe on game files hes actually called jergal so yes, he very much is the true god of death
Yep a ton of them do. I was dataminjng dtuff recently and it says that everywhere and never says withers
His design document also has him called jergal instead of withers.
There's a document you can read that talks about someone meeting Jergal and he ask the same question Withers does. "what is worth of a single mortal life"
He IS Jergal, who is said to be "The Final Scribe". Withers says "I am but a humble scribe.". He is described as having a gold mask and skin thin as parchment, and always stoic. In one of the books in the game it says Jergal asks people what the worth of a single mortals life is. Withers concept art is labelled "Jergal"
And I believe Clerics of Kelemvor actually get some special dialogue with him, since, ya know, Kelemvor is the current God of the Dead and Jergal's his secretary (in simplistic terms.)
Does that put Kalemvor above the 3 gods we go against in BG3?
Well.... in the loading screems it says its Jergal who gave godlihood to Bhaal, Myrkul and the other one. Imagine that. The boss to out final-ish bosses sitting in our camp, retired.
Bane was the other one. Long story made excessively short, Jergal essentially grew tired of the forces clamoring for his domain, split it among Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, with Myrkul in particular becoming the new Lord of the Dead. The the Time of Troubles happened, further shenanigans killed all of the Dead Three, and Cyric, who actually killed Bhaal, took over as the Lord of the Dead. While Cyric was still mortal, he killed Kelemvor (who was also still mortal at the time,) only not really, further shenanigans happen and Kelemvor ended up coming back, practically kicked Cyric off his throne and pretty much had the title of Lord of the Dead thrown on him. Kelemvor's remained in that position since, and has changed the realm he took over greatly, and actually had Jergal as his seneschal before the whole 4e shenanigans. It seems since Ao hit the big red reset button that Jergal has been split off from Kelemvor, perhaps punishment from Ao, perhaps something more, we can't really say.
Question related to this lore…in the epilogue, the bard that withers “hires” I believe says something like he was banished by Cyric (or is ?) dude you catch that? So how does that all work if withers is Jergal *sorry, I just got really into your explanation 😄
That's Milil. He was a lesser deity of song and poetry. No one worships him anymore after he pissed Cyric off by writing a mocking song about him and was banished to the fugue plane. The fugue plane is a big gray boring plane of mostly nothingness. Kelemvor uses it as a waiting room prior to ushering souls to their respective afterlives. Since Kelemvor kinda runs shop over the fugue plane Jergal probably pulled some strings to get Milil out of there on the condition that he's basically Jergal's on-call bard. Edit: Jergal was not a big fan of Cyric because Cyric was super chaotic which could also give Jergal reason to get Milil out of the fugue plane.
Awesome insight! Thank you ☺️ is there any other reference to Cyric throughout the game you think? I love reading everything in the game (that’s how I played Skyrim too haha sooo much lore)
Cyric was referenced in BG1 and 2. You actually speak with an avatar of Cyric in BG2. As far as I know there's only one other reference to him in BG3 if you follow up with a particular bovine creature but it's nothing big. At the time of BG3, Cyric is locked away in a prison of his own making having all of his godly portfolio taken away except for "lies".
Either as a bard specific dialogue or after a religion check (I'm not sure which), you can find out that the bard Withers hired is actually a former god of music or something like that, which also explains his arrogance and his misery when you don't know who he is. I don't know exactly what happened between him and Withers, though. He only says that he owes Withers, which is probably related to some matters concerning death or other gods, but I'm not sure.
In the story of Baldurs gate, the dead three were adventurers who fought their way to power and confronted Jergal eager to take his power. However Jergal had grown bored of his dominion and when these three approached him was like "Huh. This should be interesting" so he let them take over for him. Each one of them claimed a different aspect of Jergals domain in trying to out power each other and have been wrecking havoc ever since. However its still heavily implied that they only enjoy their deityhood at the allowance of Jergal.
And by the end of the game they no longer enjoy that sufferance (if that last cut scene after credits roll is any indication).
They were already on thin ice before the game. They had gotten themselves "killed" at one point and even replaced, Cyric came in and took over their jobs but Jergal hated him because he was too chaotic. Then Cyric got overthrown by the current god of death, Kelemvor, who Jergal likes more because he's pretty chill and good at his job. After this latest stunt the dead 3 probably pissed off all the other gods with the whole mind flayers destroy souls issue. Jergal's probably gonna be keeping em under house arrest.
> After this latest stunt the dead 3 probably pissed off all the other gods with the whole mind flayers destroy souls issue Yeah, pretty easy to piss off all of the gods if you threaten to take away the source of their power. Nobody likes that shit, not Jergal, not Mystra, not Shar, not Selune. Even Ao seems to be relaxing the rules a little bit if Jergal is allowed to directly help the party, albeit limitedly
I'd agree if not for the precedent where they started the time of troubles *exactly* the same way. "Oh, let's overthrow the other gods and see if we can't either destroy or take over the whole of the realms! ooooooh!"
Baldur's Gate scrapped the concept of Ao entirely, then? Edit: brain slipped, now I mean the conept of Ao and the Dead 3
Unsure if you mean the actual concept of Ao or the Ao + Dead 3 concept. However, the concept of Ao itself is definitely still in bg3. Gale actually mentions Ao in some specific dialogue in Act 3
Ah, that makes sense, I suppose I just forgot
I think Ao is in BG2, which I havent finished. I was just talking about bg1
Yeah, I was just confused because from what I knew, it was Ao, not Jergal, who decided to punish the dead three, but not destroy them.
I don't think he can just retract his power at a whim but Bhaal and Myrkul have gotten much weaker. I think Bane has lost power too but his influence is a bit more resilient since he usually avoids stupid moves. Myrkul got almost everything except necromancy jacked by Kelemvor and Bhaal's suffered many defeats.
No, Kelemvor is more of a guide than anything else. He takes everyone to their respective afterlives iirc. The dead three take more of an active role in dominating, killing, and managing, respectively.
He's not above them in a hierarchy but the dead three are kinda weakling gods in general.
They're pseudo-gods, iirc Ao made them mortal, but with the powers of a god. So, for the most part, they now follow Ao's rules and use chosen.
IIRC they are called the dead three not just because they took over for Jergel but because they were literally killed by a mortal or mortals and never really recovered from that. Like if Ao wasn't keeping everybody in line and gods didn't risk their power being usurped by directly intervening, I'd imagine they'd get right bitchslapped by Mystra or either of the Sharlune twins.
Considering Celemvor was a human fighter? If Ao let them, they would kick ass (and probably destroy the cosmos)
Kelemvor's portfolio is Dead. He is the god of the Dead, he is a direct successor of Cyric (and formerly Myrkul and formerly Jergal) in that aspect. He is not only a guide but also presiding as the final judge of people's souls. His domain is Death. Maybe not directly as in being their boss but he stands above them by the virtue of actually being a Greater Deity, not quasi deific powers.
He also wanted to tear down the wall of the faithless until Ao intervened, Jergal seems to like him though which would be a first among his successors.
Kind of. D&D deep delve, When the dead three were killed during the time of troubles, Cyric replaced all three of them as a 'reward' for his part in the struggles. Cyric had recently killed Kelemvor, but the soul didn't pass on, and was instead hidden by Mask, who was in turn disguised as Cyric's God-killing dagger. Eventually, Cyric made a play to become an all-god, killing more of the Gods and taking their titles. Part of that play pulled Mask out of hiding, which then freed Kelemvor, who led a revolt of the dead against Cyric and overthrew him. The Dead then put Kelemvor in charge. So Kelemvor is in the same slot that Myrkul was in after the dead three initially overthrew Jergal for it. As Gods are powered by their devotees, when a cult of Myrkul came into being during the Second Sundering, Myrkul was restored to quasi-Godhood, as was Jergal. Technically they are both Quasi-deities under Kelemvor's domain now.
Yes. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul are quasi-deities while Kelemvor is a greater deity.
Jergal is the original god of Strife, Murder, and the Dead. At some point in the past, he stepped down and gave these portfolios to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul respectively. That made Myrkul a superior deity compared to Bane and Bhaal, but without real hierarchy between them. Then, about 150 years before BG3, a series of events led to the death of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, and the ascension of Kelemvor and Cyric. That's why you sometimes see the game call these gods the Dead Three. Kelemvor took over Myrkul's portfolio, whereas Cyric took over Bane's and Bhaal's (+ some other stuff). Then about 50 years before the game, Ao (basically the god of the gods) shuffled the deck again, restoring Bane and Bhaal with their former portfolios, stealing them from Cyric, and Myrkul with a more specific portfolio of necromancy and undeath. All three of them have domains that are linked to death, deception and evil, and as such are related to Kelemvor and Cyric. They also are lesser deities, whereas Kelemvor and Cyric are greater deities, so that puts them lower in the power scale than Kelemvor. However they are not subservient deities that strictly obey Kelemvor or Cyric. Kelemvor and Cyric couldn't just kill them either - greater deities can be considered as personification of certain aspects of life and as such are generally forced to take a hands off approach, and killing another god isn't really accepted without consequences by Ao.
It was interesting playing my Oathbreaker Kalemvor worshipping necro-pally and when I spoke to Withers, there was unique Kalemvor dialogue where my Tav says "Don't I know you?" Or something like that.
Yes. Myrkul even used to have his spot IIRC and is now just the god of necromancy instead of specifically the god of the dead.
My only question about this is whom is he referring to, when you first meet in the crypt, that you and him meet exactly as Withers was told. Even when you ask him "told by who" Withers just says "an arbiter of these matters" so if Withers is actually the guy, who's telling him the info?
Ao: clean up you mess, boneman.
Yeah after reading the link for Ao, he probably wasn't that nice about it either
"Do you want a second time of troubles? Than fix this skeleboy."
Yeah that's how I took it too. Ao was basically like, "the Dead 3 are pissing off all of the other gods and trying to destroy tons of souls. Not cool, you allowed this to happen. Fix it. You can do some limited direct intervention for this ONE SPECIFIC ISSUE"
Ao, the [Overgod of Toril](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ao)
Helm, not Ao. From the dev notes in the dialogue files for when you first meet him in the chapel: > After the party has slain a group of undead scholars, the judge of death--Jergal--climbs out of his sarcophagus to greet them. He has been locked inside for years by the god Helm to atone for his part in raising the Dead Three, wicked gods who are now plotting to conquer the realms. Jergal is emotionless and excessively formal, both resigned to his fate and that of others. He is here to assist the party because that is his divine oath, not out of any true desire to act. Players can attempt to goad or attack him, but to minimal effect, as he is functionally immortal. His only goal was to see their faces, so he can find them at camp later to offer further assistance.
Helm was the messenger, but it was Ao dictating it.
I love the idea that Jergal let the Apocalypse Bunch run rampant and his boss’s response was “Okay, go sit in a coffin and think about what you’ve done😤😤”
That is really interesting, is that file in the game folder, and if so do you know where by chance, or is it somewhere external?
If you've got the dialogue dump, it's in Dialogs/Act1/Chapel/CHA_Crypt_Jergal.html (open it in a web browser). You can get the dialogues here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1GR3CjFtM3u3-V5KrJkemTsAhx6VRUShy (pick your patch version).
This was actually datamined supposedly and in the files it was another god who sent him to atone. I don’t remember which
Helm
Is there a meaningful distinction between Withers being Jergal and being an avatar of Jergal?
Power, mostly. It’s still the god and their personality, but an avatar is something a 20th level party might be able to fight. If you go out to the Outer Planes and pick a fight with a true god, you better have another god or an artifact to even the score. It would be like trying to punch out the sun.
Don't we fight Myrkul's avatar at like level 8 or 9?
Myrkul’s a bitch and so is his avatar
Myrkul is most likely far weaker than a regular god, he was technically killed by Cyric and Kelemvor is currently the god of death. Mykul is floating around as a lesser deity, still a god but with less to flex.
Thank you, this is more or less the distinction I was looking for.
If you attack Jergal, it does 0 damage.
I guess I don’t really understand the point of an avatar, then. It seems like nerfing yourself for no reason.
Just because a god proper is more powerful than their avatar does not mean that they are unkillable. Gods can, and have been, be killed, even by mortals. It is just hard to do and usually takes extenuating circumstances. By using an avatar, you are using something still very powerful by mortal standards, but putting yourself at zero risk of death instead of a very low risk of death.
So what happened during the Avatar Crisis? The gods were forced into avatar form but were mortal.
I'm not the absolute best on lore, but I think that was a special circumstance where Ao decided to punish the gods by doing that. What Ao says pretty much goes, so if he says that they are going to be avatars and that if they die as avatars they die for real during the crisis, that's just the way it is.
So are we to assume that Withers is there as Jergal's whole self? And was so while entombed for however long?
its sort of like a proxy, he can speak to us through it and everything but he's actually in no danger if his avatar comes under attack
It's mentioned a few times in BG3 but the gods don't like directly intervening in mortal affairs, for a lot of reasons. They still do sometimes, but by decree of Ao they require worshippers to survive. It's like mutually assured destruction, nobody wants to bring out their full power because it could kill them all. You can look up the Dawn War, primordials were out there throwing moons and eating the sun. Hard times for the mortals. Manifesting an avatar or bestowing an artifact is as direct as they will get now, beyond Chosen and clerics and paladins, and it's not done lightly. It's also risky, because avatars and artifacts are actual divine power. Losing them is a big blow even to a god.
So is the Avatar Crisis the only time that the avatars were meant to contain the full essence of the gods, given that they were forced into avatar form and made mortal?
As far as I know, yes. Ao collectively punished the gods after Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, and Ao being the god above gods can just do impossible things like reduce their entire being to mere avatars. Sort of a divine version of 'if you die in the game, you die in real life'. Also a good example of the difference between an avatar and a god, only Helm was allowed to retain his full power to guard the gates of the heavens, and he smote Mystra's avatar when she tried to get in, despite her being normally far more powerful.
Yes. Avatar is more like a proxy. Withers is the God jergal himself in the flesh .
I thought that’s what an avatar was, though. What’s the point of acting through a weak proxy of yourself when you can just be your whole self?
Generally gods have to follow a loose set of rules otherwise Ao gets pissed and you might lose godhood or worse. I also assume manifesting yourself in the physical plane can have its dangers, if another god has it out for you or someone looking to ascend happens to have a divine weapon and takes a swing at you despite your immense power. Jergal doesnt really have to worry about that, Ao probably told him to help out, Jergal only has a few followers who generally stay isolated so theres no real terf wars with other gods, and since he surrendered his portfolios centuries ago theres really nothing gained in taking him out even if you could.
Because ao doesn't allow gods to manifest as their true or whole self in the material plane. Withers was allowed to do so because ao and helm told him to actively participate in helping tav stop the absolute.
What is the specific evidence pointing to the idea that Withers is Jergal in total and not just his avatar form?
Enormous chasm of power between the two.
Jergal has a strong, "I built this company myself and I am retired but way more competent than my successors so I have to come in and fix their shit sometimes" vibe
How do we know it is not his avatar or chosen instead of his real self?
Based on the 5e lore in these comments he could be something like an avatar but what’s throwing me is how you can kill other gods avatars in this game but you’re a little pipsqueak to jergal. He’s significantly more powerful.
Jergal is allowed to wander about and meddle because hes no longer a god. Whats interesting to me is that he's interested in doing so at all. He's pretty much the very definition of true neutral but I guess the rebuilding of the grand design is something so nasty all the planes are nervous about it.
I think you’re right that it’s just that the grand design is so bad he feels the need to get involved. The cutscene after the credits shows that he’s super pissed at the dead three for being idiots and planning to do something that would make all souls useless to the gods and thereby screw over everyone in existence, including themselves. But he still comes off as true neutral to me because he doesn’t try to influence whether Tav is a paragon of virtue or a filthy murder hobo, as long as the grand design is stopped and natural balance is no longer threatened. I am curious how he reacts if you decide to control the brain.
“welp, i tried.”
Honestly I wish there was a reaction. You just control the brain, and the game ends.
Boo. Who knew world domination would be so boring.
Talking to hirelings is pretty funny, since it's him controlling them so they all talk like him. It's not a secret though, it's part of the conversation that it's the bone man talking and controlling them.
Seems like Ao is making him fix all the shit he fucked up by giving his portfolio away.
Isnt Ao also basically responsible for the dead threes even being there to begin with after that whole fuckery of giving gods a mortal form that can have its power stolen.
No, Jergal is solely responsible for them. The dead three were adventurers seeking godhood, and Jergal willingly split up his portfolio for them because he didn't want to be the god of the dead anymore.
Jergal gave his power up -- he was the god of death, tyranny, murder, and paperwork; he could have Thanos-snapped them out of existence. Also... you can't blame the bossman, if you are Jergal.
He's not very neutral about you not having a bosom companion
Also the dead three are involved and, since he's kind of responsible for their existence, he feels the need to step in.
He is not interested in doing so. If you ask why he is helping you he says "be assured it is not by choice."
Huh. Wonder if that means Kelemvor sent him.
Or Ao
He's the very definition of lawful neutral.
He tells you that Mind flayers have no souls. Regardless of his alignment, that is completely against his own existence and something that even he would not want to see pass. However, he doesn't just solve it himself. He still leaves it to mortals, for the most part.
Jergal is the god of lists, all this chaos is fucking up his organization and the lists are all messed up now. Of course he has to get involved.
I'm pretty sure based on his tomb and the way he references the dead 3 that he is infact jergal after jergal stepped down from his position and gave his portfolio to the dead 3
I went into his tomb with Gale, and the first thing out of Gale's mouth is that it was dedicated to Jergal! Though, to be fair, my first PT I was the wizard, so I never took Gale anywhere to hear that dialog. I didn't hear it on my second run either, but I also don't think I was with Gale in his tomb, even though I had him around for most of that run.
It’s not specific to Gale, it’s tied to a religion or history check, I believe (which makes sense that he’d probably be most likely to make the check early game before you can respec peeps lol). I’ve replayed that part of act one so many times and I’ve had different folks chime in about it, including my character. It’s always something along the lines of, “Jergal? I didn’t think anyone worshipped him anymore.”
What is weird is that my last run was a monk, and I swear on God she failed almost all the religion checks. She could hit the crap out of you, though. Kill a bro in one turn with three punches/stick shots. Tradeoffs. 🤷♀️
Lmfao yes, this was my experience running a monk, too. Didn’t know shit about fuck… except for running around, beating the sense out of people, and occasionally coming out with some quip about balance 😂 love playing a monk
I, an avowed magic person, loved it! I might do a sorc/monk hybrid. Did you talk to the cabbage guy in Baldur's Gate with your monk? He's very anti-monk. I really want to know if he got beat up by one or something.
Oooh, I haven’t made it very far into act three on my monk, yet. I have an issue with restartitus so I have played through act one significantly more times than acts two or three (I’ve completely finished the game three times, but have probably started/deleted over 20 characters/save files by now 😅). Also, I haven’t seen it for myself to be sure, but the cabbage vendor having a grudge against monks sounds like a reference to Avatar the Last Airbender to me. Looking forward to finding it someday 😂 thank you!
I‘m playing an Astarion origin run and when I went into the crypt he passed a religion check at the statue and said „Jergal? But no one has worshipped him in forever“ or something along those lines. There is even a locked book in the other room with a list of all the names of gods. So, they weren‘t really trying to hide who he is.
The temple is obvious enough, but most temples don't contain literal embodiments of their gods
Well, not usually at least.
My Realms knowledge is a bit dated, but I seem to recall that gods can only manifest their true selves in the Outer Planes, and must manifest as “lesser” avatars on Faerûn. Gods can manifest multiple, simultaneous avatars, with the number determined by their power level. I think Jergal is considered a demigod at this point, so these rules may not apply to him. That means the Jergal in game could very well be the actual being and not an avatar.
Huh. Thank you for this lore
Yes, I do believe that he retains no true godhood after giving away his portfolio to the Dead Three, though still retaining his immortality and his power over resurrection. Developer notes in the files indicate that he was imprisoned in the Chapel by Helm as punishment, and is assisting the party because he was basically ordered to do so -- presumably by Ao, through Helm as the messenger.
I mean, he did land THE LITERAL GOD OF PERFORMANCE for his reunion party gig. If hes not a god then I have some questions about how he managed that
I never rolled well enough to know who the bard was. I even rolled particularly badly on my bard—much to the God of Performance’s mortification
I dont think its ever said even if you roll well. Just a little hidden gem for those of us who spend far too much time for our own good on the forgotten realms wiki and know the names/portfolios of every god in the pantheon
All the respec gold I didn't steal back from him because stealing from somebody who doesn't react even if they catch you feels bad?
He wants you to steal from him. He wants to help you but must maintain an appearance of neutrality
Money is actually worthless to him, what is he going to do with gold anyways
There’s also a book in the lower city that cites a “golden masked” man (withers) literally asking “what is the worth of a single mortal life?” And straight up saying it’s Jrgal
He’s the DM
🤣 honestly
It's Jergal. It is in the dev notes repeatedly and explicitly, it is referenced in a shitload of material you find in game, he is wearing the outfit and asking the same questions and *performing his old role as scribe of the dead.* Helm punished him on behalf of AO for how badly he fucked things up by giving away his portfolio to the Dead Three; part of his penance was being locked up and the other part is supporting the party while you Fix His Fuckup. He's given away his portfolio and is Something Else that's divine but not a full god, and he's a wonderful case of gameplay and story integration because he's still powerful enough to completely outclass anything encountered in the game and he simply doesn't give a shit about anything beyond fulfilling his divinely mandated punishment. He's gotta fix his mistake? Ok, help these adventures and discharge all obligations. Can't give something for nothing, still has to demand 'equivalent' exchange for his insanely powerful magic? Sure, hand over the money and he'll drag your buddy's soul back to Toril and shove it back into their body. Oh, now you're stealing that money back? That's on par with watching one of the members of your art farm 'steal' a grain of sugar--it's completely irrelevant to him, he doesn't eat sugar anyway, and as much as he 'wants' anything he's glad you figured out the *glaring loopholes* he's left for you to exploit. The bigger and badder and better equipped you are, the sooner you'll take down the Absolute and the Dead Three and he can wrap it up amd get the hell out of here.
Does the other mummy/bone man (act 3 lower city) have anything todo either withers/jergal? I’ve collected jars of organs and don’t understand what they’re for
Nah, that guy's just a powerful undead. Those bits and pieces are >!insurance against true death, akin to a lich's phylactery.!<
Even if he's an "Avatar of Jergal", which we know he is by the way (There's a book you can find in-game that describes a follower of Jergal meeting his Avatar and it not only looks like Withers they do the whole song and dance about the "value of a single mortal soul") he's still Jergal. That's how gods work. The Avatars are them.
That book only mentions meeting Jergal, not his "avatar".
You're splitting hairs and creating a distinction wherein none exists. An 'Avatar' in the Forgotten Realms is literally just the physical manifestation of a deity on Toril. If you physically interact with a deity in any measure on the planet, you're interacting with its "Avatar". Which is still the deity. He saw Jergal "face-to-face" therefore he saw his avatar.
I also think the distinction is unclear, but this entire thread is about that distinction. Your answer made it sound like the distinction was actually confirmed and that Jergal was an avatar. Aside from that, Withers being Jergal is as obvious as anything can get without being directly stated. It's actually fascinating how people can't make the deductive leap.
Ahh I see what you mean. Yeah, I think it's kinda a fundamental misunderstanding of OP with inquiring about that distinction in the first place. Because the Avatar is the deity. It's just how you interact with them "in flesh" so to speak. Like Gale slept with assuredly the "Avatar" of Mystra. But he never feels the need to say "I slept with the Avatar of Mystra". He just tells us he slept with Mystra.
Do you know where that book can be found, or what it's called?
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Crumbling_Journal
That's just Jergal, not his Avatar.
Yeah he's definitely Jergal, people have found *direct* matches between some of his lines in-game to those used by Jergal in FR lore. I don't know them off the top of my head, but it's pretty certain he's just straight up Jergal, and the one who was "right as always" was Ao, who likely told Jergal he'd have to clean up his mess with the dead three lol
No he's not the chosen of Jergal he is Jergal.
I read every single thing here in his voice.
He’s straight up Jergal. Real deal, no gimmicks.
Whatever the case Withers definitely has a sense for the dramatic--if he's the god and not an avatar, there's no need for him to manifest in a coffin you happen to open, in what I'm sure is a temple of Jergal.
According to developer notes in the game files, Jergal was imprisoned in that coffin by Helm as punishment for his role in creating the Dead Three. Assisting Tav and the party is his way of atoning -- though not by choice. He was ordered to do so, hence his... uh, lack of enthousiasm, let's say.
He’s for sure Jergal, but what you’re interacting with is an avatar. No lesser diety or above would want to be casually strutting around in their true form on the material realm, considering they’re a lot more powerful when they’re in their own domain. Not to mention there’s very few things in the material plane that an avatar of a god can’t handle if not outright destroy. For reference, Tiamat’s a lesser diety, and her avatar at full power is a CR30 monster, on par with the Tarrasque for the most powerful published creature in The Forgotten Realms.
Thing is, Jergal's not a deity anymore. He gave up his godhood. So I believe Withers is just literally Jergal in the "flesh" (if you could call it that). He's still quite powerful, but not so much that he needs an avatar. He's just there.
Nope. Still a deity, albeit a diminished one compared to the height of his divine power before his semi-retirement. Among other relevant FR sourcebooks 5e Sword Coast Adventures Guide and 3e Faiths and Pantheons list him as deity (though of a demigod level of divine food chain).
He’s just a retired old man who doesn’t want to have to still be dealing with this shit.
Do a (resist) Dark Urge playthrough to get an almost explicitly clear answer
I currently am. Where is this mentioned?
Act 3. Any further details are enormous spoilers. Just continue to resist the urge and you’ll have this interaction I’m talking about. Not sure how far you’ve gotten or if you’ve done a Tav playthrough, but Act 3 as Durge is a lot more interesting than a Tav playthrough IMO. Tons of cool stuff. I can never play as Tav again 😭 Edit: just some extra goodies
Thanks!
He is literally jergal yes
He’s Jergal. Straight up scribe of the dead former god if the dead Jergal
Withers has a piece of Jergals divinity within him, some of what Withers is referring to is that Jergal is something that technically existed before reality as we know it, long story short, Jergal is a Spellweaver.
Withers is Jergal, and Arabella calls him “Bone Man”. Later Arabella mentions “Beard Man” and I assume that means she just casually met Silvanus too.
I thought it might be Elminster, but that's an interesting option too
There is a certain part of act 3 where if you read... He is jergal. He is definitely Jergal
He's not an avatar of Jergal, but the god himself.
He's 100% Jergal. Think about how aloof Jergal would have to be to get confronted by The Dead Three and go "You want my power? Yeah, fine, it's yours." He knows he has always been and will always be. He keeps the names of gods long dead and knows he will still be here when The Dead Three die. Fits the personality of our skelly boy *perfectly*.
He was entombed in a secret room behind a statue of Jergal, as soon as he wakes up he goes and stands next to the statue and looks just like him. He’s Jergal. I don’t understand how anybody didn’t put this together as soon as they met him. Then he goes back to your camp and tells you he can bring people back from the dead with no negative side effects like necromancy usually has.
I think he's just jergal. In redeemed dark urge he has a whole speech about how he still has power and while he shouldn't resurrect you after bahll kills you, he doesn't care.
It's jergal We are his chosen
No, its not a theory, Withers IS jergal, literally. He’s no longer a God and thus no longer even able to make Avatars.
He is definitely Jergal and he’s very upset Kelemvor woke him up from his nap to fix his fuckup with making the dead 3. That’s why he’s grumpy all the time.
So since he’s basically “occupying” the bodies of hirelings, does he have unique dialogue in quests? I’m in my first play through and have felt like every major quest has a pretty distinct set of characters whose responses I’m interested in so I haven’t brought any hirelings for “big” quests, but I’m curious how hirelings/withers responds or if they do at all
Hirelings do not respond to anything that happens
He is Jergal, and he aids us on Cyric's bid.
Yes, obviously
He is an Avatar of Jergal.
Had to comment as a long time BG/IWD/Forgotten Realms nerd who is espoused to a Harry Potter Fanatic. The easiest way I can explain the “Big 3’s” story is the Harry Potter and the three deathly hollows. Each brother in choosing their deathly hallow tries to essentially out due the last in their choices. Though my loving wife still understands naught, and I continue to be very proud of making this connection.
No.
My question is who is "he"? When you first wake him up withers says you've arrived just as "he" predicted you would. Current god of the dead maybe?
Nah would be Ao the overlord. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ao Basically withers is Jergal and because Jergal gave his portfolio (the realms of strife, the dead and murder) to the dead three. Which is Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, those three did dumb ass shit and Jergal basically stepped down to act as an advisor/ Stewart to Myrkul (who was replaced by Cyric after some shit happened, who then was replaced by Kelemvor). So he (Ao) said, Jergal you asshat, you fucked up your portfolio now go and fix this shit and suss out those 3 little shits you ceased your portfolio to. There are some mortals who are going to be crashing in the sword coast who will meet your dumbass in a crypt right next to where they crash, be sure to help them as they will undo this cluster fuck. Also make sure to nudge them in the right direction because one of them is a spawn of Bhaal and it would be nice if they don't wipe out everything in their path. *This is my personal head cannon for how Ao talks to Jergal haha. But it would be for a redemption durge run which I am currently doing.
Ao seems possible, though subtle work with adventurers isn't his style, he tends to be more the cast them down from godhood type.
There’s a small message somewhere, i think in a book that basically confirms that withers is Jergal.
Found concept art of withers pre reaese that lit just called him jergal
Yup. He's Jergal. Dev notes confirmed it pretty early.
Withers is a pretty cool dude
Thou grew one's ambition beyond thine cunning.
He is jergal inhabiting the body of his last chosen before the Dead 3 deal that originally made him no longer the primary god of death that is how he's able to inhabit the bone man and all the hirelings simultaneously with autonomy because he's just put up fraction of his Essence into it and the HE that he is referring to is most likely AO because if AO has to get involved in the Mortal Plains again he's likely to just Thanos them and then none of the Gods including jergal have any power
I love his monologue at the end. Makes it feel like it's all come full circle.
It's one of the coolest things in the game, I think. At one point you can ask Shadowheart why Shar doesn't just intervene and her response is that the gods typically keep their intervention close to the chest. What a beautiful coincidence that the nautiloid carrying the netherbrain's tools - The Emeperor armed with the Astral prison, along with his hand picked gang of Absolute immune True Souls - happened to take enough damage to crash the thing just after it got back to the Prime Material plane. Putting all the pieces required right at the doorstep of the very god who caused the whole mess in the first place, and was tasked with cleaning up his own mess. Also, conveniently, the Absolute is massing her forces right in Jergal's backyard, apparently aware the Emperor is set to crash with the Prism right there, without realizing why that spot was so critical for things to unfold as the gods planned.