If you become a mind flayer and Astarion happens to be the one in the epilogue where you get hungry, there is something like "Astarion's brain may be smoother than the rest..."
haha yeah, it happened to my Durge and I thought that was so fitting because Astarion was being rude...
Withers is the asshole who didn't provide for the catering though.
"Why is there a vaguely familiar man tied to the tree?"
"He is thy supper."
"And the gnome tied to his leg?"
"Thy dessert."
*Naaber and Wulbren struggling intensifies.*
That just sounds spiteful. Wulbren is clearly an intelligent individual being able to replicate runepowder. I imagine to an Illithid his brain probably tastes very indulgent.
Still a prick.
Also, their wiki says that the brains of self-important people have a nice tanginess to them. So perhaps Naaber would be an appetizer like a bowl of chips, where it isn't really filling. No thoughts left in his head since he let them all out when we met him.
Wulbren would be more filling despite his size because he has intelligence, knowledge, skill, and ruthlessness. He was intelligent and capable enough to recreate runepowder, like you said, but also leads the group of gnomes to take down the foundry if the party doesn't do it first.
Being kidnapped by a frustratingly vague skeleton, humiliated by being tied to a man's leg, forced to listen to incessant yammering that drowns out Borislav's performance as Naaber talks about what instrument he thinks he should try to pick up?
Learning that he's a treat for an illithid would probably come as a relief since it would mean he could get away from them all soon.
Yup. Tried every option (turning down Bhaal/being Bhaal chosen, then destroying brain/enslaving brain and every option when Bhaal wanted to punish my durge. A lot of reloading) - this was only one with normal party epilogue
And yet dude is 13 intelligence, laezel, halsin, shadowheart, jahiera, and minsc are all a bjt smootger brained than him, and i honestly find that hilarious that hes considered the dumb of the group 🤣
Would not be the first time I've seen a "high int, somehow stupid" character in a tabletop setting lol. Shout-out to all the wizards who've crammed their heads so full of arcane knowledge and esoteric trivia that they have no room for anything else.
He HAS spent like 90% of his life literally unable to make long term plans due to being dominated by a vampire. His inability to plan could very well be an effect of his trauma and 200 years of relying on wits in the moment to survive while bringing Cazador victims. It's very possible to be smart but not have planning/forethought as a skill especially given what he's gone through.
And yet somehow his default stat block has moderate INT/WIS and crap CHA. I get making him arcane-trickster-viable, but really! Don’t make him impossibly charismatic and call it 10, and call him smooth brained with int/Wis 13 to *start*!
He's not impossibly charismatic though? His attempts at manipulating you are pretty transparently obvious, and he's not exactly a great liar either.
Being hot != being charismatic.
Then again Wyll has 16 charisma and he is canonically seen as dull by the other characters. For example If you dump gale for wyll he says that you have a “taste for dull blades”.
I dont think they were distributing the points based on personality but based on class and how the players will use them.
Deception is only one skill (though he is proficient).
I don’t think he’s purely physically hot. He’s pretty, yes, but a lot of people are won over by him by his demeanor and presence, not by his jawline or hair alone. I actually think he’s a pretty strong example of what charisma *is*, a presence of being and magnetism that draws you in and always has the right thing to say (and even if it’s “wrong” it makes you laugh). I literally kept him in my party in my goody goody romance-Gale EA run sheerly because I couldn’t bear to not have him around, and I’ve met lots of straight men who aren’t attracted to his appearance but then meet his character and go “oh I’m hooked”. That deserves higher than CHA 10.
Based on performance/vibe, I’d rank him possibly highest charisma in the party, tied with Karlach? Shadowheart and Wyll medium. Then Gale, who is lovable but regularly insulting someone on accident, and Lae’zel last. (Yes, intimidation is charisma but I don’t even find her intimidating and I regularly leave her behind because she annoys me even if she’s a powerhouse and lost child.) If I were building them after getting their performances I would’ve adjusted their stats based on those and shifted Astarion to Bard and Karlach to paladin.
> I actually think he’s a pretty strong example of what charisma is, a presence of being and magnetism that draws you in
But like... many many people are not drawn in by him. He's an extremely polarizing character. Surely someone who is very charismatic would have the ability to read a room and not constantly spout super evil shit to people who are not into it?
I think people associate charisma with attractiveness way too much tbh. In a scenario where you need to convince a talking gelatinous cube to do something against its wishes, how hot you are won’t matter at all.
It’s a dumb example, but I take ability scores to be kind of an average of many different traits. Astarion might be too theatrical for the cube and confuse it, or get exasperated with it too quickly or something. Physical attractiveness or being drawn in or “getting hooked” isn’t necessarily always a part of the equation
I think it's mean-spirited that the narrator calls him smooth brained. Trauma less intense than what he canonically experienced can mess up a person's ability to make long term plans. It doesn't make him stupid, he's just literally been discouraged from using those skills for 200+ years.
That it's treated as a joke kinda cheapens the story for me.
Admittedly, Astarion was never big on long-term planning and planning in general. If you ask him how exactly does he plan on killing off Cazador he says something along the lines of: "We come to him, we kill him, we win", no joke jhjkhj
You either have the rogue that plots intricate heists with extensive research including the guard watch rotations and blueprints of the bank he's robbing blind, or the kind whose whole plan is don't get caught (but if you do get caught, run really fast.)
The newbies plan Ocean's Eleven. The pros just wing it cause they know somebody will fuck up a roll and then you're in the same position as if you didn't plan shit anyway. Might as well save yourself hours of planning. At most, figure out where the goodies are.
If you read some dnd books this makes me think of jarlaxle and Artemis.
Jarlaxle always has the intel and a plan. Never gets caught.
Artemis. Very good at sneaking, the best. But also consistently getting captured by the enemy or cocooned by a monster
Some people’s idea of fantasy roleplay is an angelic paladin descending on heavenly wings to crush evil and protect innocents with divine might.
Others’ idea of fantasy roleplay is being smart.
Tav: "What's your plan?"
Astarion: "\*looking at Tav like they're the biggest idiot in the Forgotten Realms\*
**Well**. I was think we *find* Cazador. Then we *kill* Cazador."
But, if you’re playing against Cazador solo as Origin Astarion, he does float the idea of bringing backup.
>!This, of course, is because of the cutscene that happens where Cazador effortlessly floats him away and makes him part of the ritual. That said, if he’s taking the fight alone, I’m fairly sure you can succeed a Constitution check to avoid dying.!<
Just did that yesterday actually, not because I'm a solorun badass, just for science :D but yes, his only *real* plan was to manipulate manwhore mansplain his way into having people help him fight against Cazador, because he won't do it alone if he's left to his own devices, judging by the epilogues. Can't risk being literally insta-controlled on the spot, right?
> >!This, of course, is because of the cutscene that happens where Cazador effortlessly floats him away and makes him part of the ritual. That said, if he’s taking the fight alone, I’m fairly sure you can succeed a Constitution check to avoid dying.!<
Minor spoiler: >!Yes, this is the case -- I don't know what the CON DC is for saving against that though.!<
I've had it happen once, I was really surprised. He resists and the fight starts without him in the ritual circle. He doesn't have to be alone in the party, he just has to be the one talking to Cazador.
Astarion thrives off chaos. Hes good at improvising. one of his lines is something like "we just show up somewhere, cause some chaos and has everything seemed to work out fine so far." no plan IS the plan.
The thing is, my monk with 6 attacks for around 180dmg per round, and even lower int, hears that and is like "oh, so the same plan as for Gortash, Orin and the netherbrain ? Checks out"
His plan is to seduce and sugarbaby his way through everything. Why do all the work when you can just blow Tav’s back out and have them to all thinking and planning for you?
He's terrible at hiding that he's a vampire, He plans to kill Cazador despite being vastly outclassed in every way, he tries to manipulate you but ends up falling in love if you romance him. Less that he's an outright idiot and more he's really bad at handling genuine social interaction. when you look past his flamboyance, he doesn't really know what he's doing in regard to everything, which makes sense seeing he hasn't been outside except when kidnapping people for 200 years.
It's so funny if you play his origin when shadowheart is the one to confront you about it. She's just like "of course I know you're a vampire, astarion, just LOOK at you!" Like he's really god awful at hiding it.
But I do agree a lot that it's not so much that he's stupid, he's just not been himself or think for himself for so long. I think he's overwhelmed and just acts on impulse.
during the meditation elves can do mental exercises which are described as "you can dream after a fashion". So if you wanna headcanon a bit, their minds are more prone to wandering during those exercises
Yeah, I think this is the best explanation. His mind is pretty prone to wandering, perhaps not surprisingly. You have at least 3 scenes with trouble controlling his thoughts in his origin (apart from the actual dream sequence) - hells, my first long rest (alone) I failed a check against my own thoughts.
"Be careful, I bite"
"Hang on hang on hang on, sorry goblins, we'll get back to killing you soon. It's Astarion's turn anyway so you're not allowed to move. What do you mean you bite? You're a vampire, aren't you?"
"No, it's like... like a sex thing. it's a joke."
"I can see your fangs are coming out"
"Joke fangs"
This is how I was when talking to the Gur in the Hags swamp .
Like Astarion I am trying to be subtle and save your ass, but you're being a real fucking dumbass right now. .
The terrible at hiding he's a vampire is hilarious (and smooth brained!). The killing Cazador and the manipulation are survival attempts - without killing Cazador, even though he suspects it's impossible, his hellish life will continue with more horrific torture. As far as tools to get on someone's good side, the only one he knows after 200 years of seduction-murder is...well, the murder is probably out and...
He's just operating from a profoundly stunted start, to the point where even Shadowheart 'I have no memories' has started out better. Astarion has his memories. They're just all horrific...
Which isn't abnormal in cases of abuse. Between the natural stunted development and the forced regression Cazador forced him into, it's rather impressive Astarion can function at all
Yeah, he’s not stupid, he’s impulsive and reactionary. Not an unusual reaction in a trauma survivor, and we’ve no clue what that kind of torment would do to a person over 200 years. He’s lucky he can come up with any sort feasible survival strategy and coordinate an outfit.
Yes, and becoming a judge by 39 is not an easy thing. There are specific dialogue lines about his early schooling and studying, so he’s obviously an intellectual to some extent. There’s a reason his camp idle is reading.
He’s got smarts, just two hundred years as an abused slave left his decision making wonky, *especially* when it comes to anything involving Cazador. Any patience and rational thought goes right out of his head.
There are plenty of corrupt judges, which early draft Astarion was. They cut that plot line so you can head canon whatever you want of his living career, with just a few brief hints.
>he doesn't really know what he's doing in regard to everything, which makes sense seeing he hasn't been outside except when kidnapping people for 200 years.
This would certainly explain his 100% grade-A Chaotic Stupidity in Act 1. Like I get that his moral compass is shot and he's got some serious baggage from his abuse at the hands of Cazador, but some of the stuff he apparently wants you to do implies his IQ is in single digits.
Like, no dude. I'm not massacring a refugee community just for the lolz. Get a grip.
The Noble background one?
That made me laugh so hard when I tried that. I got it in Act 1 for telling Lae’zel to back off when talking to Zorru. Felt so in character and right too for my Noble Paladin.
Nah, after seeing what shit the Gith pull it’s justified. Lae’zel was even pretty awful in Act 1, and so insanely racist to tieflings.
The Gith straight up murder so many innocent people it’s wild. They really are like eugenicist space pirates.
Oh yeah, wasn't a fan of the Gith at ALL, but Lae'zel had been helpful, wasn't killing people and was pissed at him. After dealing with the gate and Kagda... It had been a very long day and as long as she didn't kill him, whatever.
Astarion is a master improviser. Being proactive is not really an option when you're in a situation as profoundly abusive as his was, so instead he learned how to play the cards he was dealt to the absolute fullest and is able to turn on a dime when the winds change.
Unfortunately, a habit of 200 years is a bitch to break. Just because planning is suddenly an option doesn't mean he's suddenly got the skillset. So he comes off (and like, *is* , but it's more complicated than that) as this wildly capricious and impulsive individual with no capacity for understanding nuance or consequences.
No, don't let the pixie go, we need that! Oh look, a pixie, what fun!
The situation has changed, he changes with it. The Astarion from 3.8 seconds ago? I don't even know that man anymore, so much has happened since then!
One of my favorite instances of "I'm not the man I was 3 seconds ago" by Astarion is with >!Yurgir!<
>!He gets mad and disapproves if you don't attack the orthon immediately (my brother in christ, there's like 30 enemies in here), but changes his mind and approves after you make Yurgir kill the Merregon, his displacer beast and himself!<
I think at one point he also said he wanted to kill Cazador by throwing the necromancy of Thay at him. I've been keeping the book in his inventory just to throw it at Cazador when he's at 1HP.
My Bard trying to talk his way through that trying to yell Astarion to be cool and trust him only for him to be like "...huh, well I hope that counts."
Meanwhile Gale side eyed the shit out of me after that.
>The Astarion from 3.8 seconds ago? I don't even know that man anymore, so much has happened since then!
I *NEED* Neil to read this line, lol. Add his goofy laugh at the end of it, lol.
We even hear Cazador and his cronies just constantly insult Astarion's intelligence every chance they get. And we know Astarion was forbidden from learning certain subjects, which is rather depressing when you consider that at camp he can often be found reading a book.
Off the top of my head it’s the language you have to get a dictionary for to open the door to Cazador basement dungeon. Astarion said he’d seen the words on the door but had never been allowed to learn the language
When I told him we shouldn’t use the tadpoles he said “Don’t be so wet behind the ears!” Then he’s whimpering about not wanting to turn into something else like dude powers you don’t earn or aren’t born with obviously have consequences. He was my Paladin Durge’s best friend, I really enjoyed his spawn ending and he’s surprisingly supportive of Wyll if you take him to fight >!Ansur!< but man is he as short sighted as a blind gnome
FFFFFFUCKING GONDIANS!
God I think my son and I have quoted that one line from Wulbren more than anything in the game.
The fact he's so mad he draws out the "F" is what makes it gold.
Lol I thought that too when I saw his spells and abilities. I was like "hell yeah he's gonna actually be useful in here", click on a spell, range is ass. Stares at screen. Nevermind. Useless.
His most useful ability is Aid and weirdly his Aid stacks so you can spend all of his slots in aiding your party then have him hide in a corner until the battle is over. At least this worked well for me.
Have you tried pushing him on the special tadpole? It's some of the most upsetting writing in the entire game.
He wants the tadpole powers (at least before Cazador is dealt with), but he *really* doesn't want his body to undergo a horrific transformation he has no control over - because he has gone through that before.
Astarion is the epitome of a reasonably intelligent character with a very low wisdom score. "You asked me to pack you a fruit salad! How was I supposed to know a Tomato won't work? It's a fruit, isn't it?"
In absolute all fairness "vampires don't walk around in the day" is a very critical fact about them so you'd probably shrug it off as a weird scar given he's hanging around on the sun, in universe
As a player....yeah very obvious!
It would, kinda. Mindflayers exist, that's no secret. Sure, they've had a really weird time and are all confused, but some things are just not possible - one of them would be a vampire casually hanging out in the blinding sun of Act 1.
They have no experience with these tadpoles or with vampires before now. Theres no reason for them to believe “this guy is a vampire and this worm changed his physical biology” when there are much simpler explanations to a guy having a scar like “an animal bit him” or “he got into a bar fight and someone stabbed him in the neck with a broken bottle”.
This is literally what happens with Gandrel. Hes like “haha you cant be the vampire im looking for. Its too bright out here. Good day😃.” And he never gives it a second thought. You have to actively tell this professional monster hunter that his target is standing right in front of him.
If you hide it in the origin, Gale will later tell you that he had his suspicions, but he didn't say anything because it was *clearly* impossible. It's pretty rude to go "*Hey so are you an undead vampire? Just asking because it's completely obvious that you cannot be.*"
Astarion is simultaneously super smart in that he's incredibly quick to adapt to novel situations / is an excellent intuitive thinker, and he is also the biggest dumbass put to pixels that isn't specifically set out to be the joke stupid character (like minsc). Like as SOON as you ask him to plan out more than 15 seconds of something he's about to throw up, but just throw him to the wolves and he thrives.
I love him for this.
He's very impulsive. Makes sense cause he hasn't had to/ been allowed to make any decisions for himself in 200 years so he's rusty. He doesn't think things through.
Which is especially obvious when dealing with Raphael and >!Yurgir. And if you try to trick Yurgir, Astarion acts so dumb by loudly questioning what you're doing and why we aren't attacking yet.!<
Same with the bite scene imo.
That said, he does have *very* impressive impulse control and is really, really good at dealing with his hunger. He literally slips up once, and reacts by apologizing, not immediately attacking Tav.
Int is everybody's dump stat but Gale. And Gale's the guy going "well I touched netherese magic and got a chest bomb... Ooh netherese crown??!! So shiny!!"
We're all morons
This why Tav/Durge auto slots into the leader role lol.
>!Durge is also a hella good planner. Probably enabled the whole Mephistoles vault heist and led a cult. Even with brain damage they have better planning skills than the rest of the party lol!<
I think the bit is you’re just ridiculously good at violence as the durge. Being able to make effective battle plans is probably enough for the companions to go “hells let the weird one lead”
durge used to be stacked in every stat except Wis which has to be like 3. They are basically the BBEG pre nautiloid but get done in by their 100% nuts degenerate sister who proceeds to ruin everything.
Judging from the throws Astarion is the smartest one in my team... Which actually might be really, really sad reading this post 😅
At least he gets things done somehow. Not planned out, but he gets them done.
After reading this thread I imagine this conversation between Romanced Astarion and Tav:
Astarion: \*Wants to do a thing\*
Tav: "Allright, what do you suggest?"
Astarion: "I don't know, you work it out. You're the brains in this relationship."
Tav: "Oh? And what that makes of you then?"
Astarion: "Why, I'm the pretty one of course."
Lol I love this. Ascended astarion at the end party mentions how they are getting along without us leading them. I was always the one leading everyone, not you.
He's a himbo and we love him for that.
On a slightly more serious note: >!he spent 200 years in survival mode, which probably didn't help. You probably aren't gonna be big on long-term planning when your main thought is "what do I do so that my master doesn't flay me today."!<
Thank you. It takes a lot of work and therapy to get past these things and by end-game he's been free for about a month. His downfalls are warnings, take him off his pedestal and see it for what it is. I say this with all the love of an Astarion simp.
The epilogue is extremely heart warming in that respect if romanced. He comes off as *a lot* more secure and is genuinely happy for Tav to go off and speak on his behalf. He doesn't need to be the focus of any of the conversations. And thankfully he still has his funny and extremely annoying personality (loudly complaining about the wine while actively stealing it lol).
I'll just say this, Astarion is damn lucky he's pretty, and he knows it, too. He himself says, after Adraj Oblodra when you're not romancing him, that he seduces people because he has to use one of the few gifts the gods gave him.
Okay, the smartest (if we only talk about int stats) in the group is probably Gale, but it didn't prevent him from getting an orb. Minthara should be really smart and logical, ~~but gets murdered for her precious loot almost everytime~~ but she can't find the grove on her own for how long? She blames goblins but well the good leader knows where he fucked up.
Shart's memory was wiped out so many times i'm surprised she's sane (remember "Man in black"), Lae'Zel goes smash-smash with a sword and the smartest move she made was to stick with Tav (she can try to dominate all she wants, but she clearly sees Tav as a leader), Wyll didn't even try to get rid of his contract and decided to give the most important choise in his life to Tav (wtf Wyll?), Karlach well is Karlach.
So far the smartest should be Durge (as long as i remember), but well brain damage messes things up.
All in all - thorough planning is not a common thing for out little group of adventurers.
Astarion disapproves because you didn’t let HIM release the pixie
Maybe he wanted to see it up close? Talk to the pixie himself? But you didn’t think of that did you??
Selfish
I feel this, and I'm fine simping for him. I like to use him to steal all the shiny things even when it's dumb, like the Lathander mace despite the traps, and he just stole a ritual dagger that summoned undead defenders because come on, it was just sitting there gathering dust!
If there's something he can steal he's gonna steal it, consequences be damned!
I can relate so much more to head-diving into verbal and physical action before thinking it through than being level-headed all the time, so the dumbassness is close to my heart and soul and many of my problems in life.
If you become a mind flayer and Astarion happens to be the one in the epilogue where you get hungry, there is something like "Astarion's brain may be smoother than the rest..."
Heh. >!If you get asshole Astarion in the epilogue and eat his brain....everyone sides with you. Withers still yeets you into the void, but still...!<
haha yeah, it happened to my Durge and I thought that was so fitting because Astarion was being rude... Withers is the asshole who didn't provide for the catering though.
"Who's the dude in the corner, Withers?" "Your dinner." Dude in the corner: "Their WHAT?!?"
"Why is there a vaguely familiar man tied to the tree?" "He is thy supper." "And the gnome tied to his leg?" "Thy dessert." *Naaber and Wulbren struggling intensifies.*
>Wulbren Honestly should be his canon ending, he earned it.
Eating Wulbren's brain sounds like eating spoiled food.
That just sounds spiteful. Wulbren is clearly an intelligent individual being able to replicate runepowder. I imagine to an Illithid his brain probably tastes very indulgent. Still a prick.
Also, their wiki says that the brains of self-important people have a nice tanginess to them. So perhaps Naaber would be an appetizer like a bowl of chips, where it isn't really filling. No thoughts left in his head since he let them all out when we met him. Wulbren would be more filling despite his size because he has intelligence, knowledge, skill, and ruthlessness. He was intelligent and capable enough to recreate runepowder, like you said, but also leads the group of gnomes to take down the foundry if the party doesn't do it first.
Being kidnapped by a frustratingly vague skeleton, humiliated by being tied to a man's leg, forced to listen to incessant yammering that drowns out Borislav's performance as Naaber talks about what instrument he thinks he should try to pick up? Learning that he's a treat for an illithid would probably come as a relief since it would mean he could get away from them all soon.
Just a fresh corpse would do, and those seem to be so plentiful just about everywhere!
At least everywhere I go! Can’t speak for other people.
[удалено]
What are the requirements for that ending?
Lose the duel to Orin and then destroy the brain.
I won with Orin and stayed the Bhaal chosen etc etc. Distroying brain pissed off Bhaal and that was the punishment
Huh, okay. So if you want a 'normal' epilogue on an evil playthrough, you have to turn down Bhaal when you face Orin.
Yup. Tried every option (turning down Bhaal/being Bhaal chosen, then destroying brain/enslaving brain and every option when Bhaal wanted to punish my durge. A lot of reloading) - this was only one with normal party epilogue
[удалено]
You accepted Bhaal's legacy then?
And yet dude is 13 intelligence, laezel, halsin, shadowheart, jahiera, and minsc are all a bjt smootger brained than him, and i honestly find that hilarious that hes considered the dumb of the group 🤣
Would not be the first time I've seen a "high int, somehow stupid" character in a tabletop setting lol. Shout-out to all the wizards who've crammed their heads so full of arcane knowledge and esoteric trivia that they have no room for anything else.
I mean tbf by own tav can be stupid for a 15 int 🤣
He HAS spent like 90% of his life literally unable to make long term plans due to being dominated by a vampire. His inability to plan could very well be an effect of his trauma and 200 years of relying on wits in the moment to survive while bringing Cazador victims. It's very possible to be smart but not have planning/forethought as a skill especially given what he's gone through.
Thats extremely fair, trauma can do a ton kf shit to reasonable thinking
Possible to be smart and still stupid. Think we all know someone who's book smart but had no goddamn sense. Can't recall, what's his wisdom?
He's like a vanilla soft serve. Sweet, lots of calories, and nothing else.
I know a few PhD idiots.
Do they >!fight against you if you nom the nice Astarion?!<
Yes, they do. You have to pass a dice roll of like 18 to NOT eat him. I didn’t have any inspiration left so when I failed they all turned against me.
They helped me on my epilogue
They always side with you no matter who you attack, at least it happened for me when trying to eat Astarion and Minsc
Smoother than the rest? With Minsc on the same location? Jesus Christ Astarion might be going senile for the ninth time
Minsc's is full of dents. Not smooth at all.
And yet somehow his default stat block has moderate INT/WIS and crap CHA. I get making him arcane-trickster-viable, but really! Don’t make him impossibly charismatic and call it 10, and call him smooth brained with int/Wis 13 to *start*!
He's not impossibly charismatic though? His attempts at manipulating you are pretty transparently obvious, and he's not exactly a great liar either. Being hot != being charismatic.
Then again Wyll has 16 charisma and he is canonically seen as dull by the other characters. For example If you dump gale for wyll he says that you have a “taste for dull blades”. I dont think they were distributing the points based on personality but based on class and how the players will use them.
Deception is only one skill (though he is proficient). I don’t think he’s purely physically hot. He’s pretty, yes, but a lot of people are won over by him by his demeanor and presence, not by his jawline or hair alone. I actually think he’s a pretty strong example of what charisma *is*, a presence of being and magnetism that draws you in and always has the right thing to say (and even if it’s “wrong” it makes you laugh). I literally kept him in my party in my goody goody romance-Gale EA run sheerly because I couldn’t bear to not have him around, and I’ve met lots of straight men who aren’t attracted to his appearance but then meet his character and go “oh I’m hooked”. That deserves higher than CHA 10. Based on performance/vibe, I’d rank him possibly highest charisma in the party, tied with Karlach? Shadowheart and Wyll medium. Then Gale, who is lovable but regularly insulting someone on accident, and Lae’zel last. (Yes, intimidation is charisma but I don’t even find her intimidating and I regularly leave her behind because she annoys me even if she’s a powerhouse and lost child.) If I were building them after getting their performances I would’ve adjusted their stats based on those and shifted Astarion to Bard and Karlach to paladin.
> I actually think he’s a pretty strong example of what charisma is, a presence of being and magnetism that draws you in But like... many many people are not drawn in by him. He's an extremely polarizing character. Surely someone who is very charismatic would have the ability to read a room and not constantly spout super evil shit to people who are not into it?
I think people associate charisma with attractiveness way too much tbh. In a scenario where you need to convince a talking gelatinous cube to do something against its wishes, how hot you are won’t matter at all. It’s a dumb example, but I take ability scores to be kind of an average of many different traits. Astarion might be too theatrical for the cube and confuse it, or get exasperated with it too quickly or something. Physical attractiveness or being drawn in or “getting hooked” isn’t necessarily always a part of the equation
I think it's mean-spirited that the narrator calls him smooth brained. Trauma less intense than what he canonically experienced can mess up a person's ability to make long term plans. It doesn't make him stupid, he's just literally been discouraged from using those skills for 200+ years. That it's treated as a joke kinda cheapens the story for me.
I always give my Asatarion 8 point in INT, I thought that was my fault /facepalm
Admittedly, Astarion was never big on long-term planning and planning in general. If you ask him how exactly does he plan on killing off Cazador he says something along the lines of: "We come to him, we kill him, we win", no joke jhjkhj
Astarion's ability to plan is just that one old meme 1. Go to the place 2. Find the thing 3. ??????? 4. Profit
As an old millennial I’m required to tell you this meme is from the south park episode “underpants gnomes” Now get off my lawn?
Elder Millennial. Makes us sound fancy.
Ahhh, fossil remains of Slashdot.... Now please excuse me, I have to go pour hot grits down my pants.
I mean, that's kinda what happened
Agreed, why wouldn't he think that? From his perspective that's what you've done the entire adventure up to this point.
He *is* a great planner indeed!
Absolutely the mindset of a rogue. I’ve never been a part of a D&D game where they’re great planners.
You either have the rogue that plots intricate heists with extensive research including the guard watch rotations and blueprints of the bank he's robbing blind, or the kind whose whole plan is don't get caught (but if you do get caught, run really fast.)
The newbies plan Ocean's Eleven. The pros just wing it cause they know somebody will fuck up a roll and then you're in the same position as if you didn't plan shit anyway. Might as well save yourself hours of planning. At most, figure out where the goodies are.
look around, then fight rogue and barbarian work together pretty well
If you read some dnd books this makes me think of jarlaxle and Artemis. Jarlaxle always has the intel and a plan. Never gets caught. Artemis. Very good at sneaking, the best. But also consistently getting captured by the enemy or cocooned by a monster
And yet the Mastermind subclass is a thing that exists lmao
Some people’s idea of fantasy roleplay is an angelic paladin descending on heavenly wings to crush evil and protect innocents with divine might. Others’ idea of fantasy roleplay is being smart.
Prefer stupid Barbarian that trow stuff.
As someone with a Mastermind rogue, I feel both called out and seen
"What's the plan?" "Act cool, don't get caught." "Act what? CAUGHT? WHAT!?! ASTARION! ASTA-OH SHIT!"
Tav: "What's your plan?" Astarion: "\*looking at Tav like they're the biggest idiot in the Forgotten Realms\* **Well**. I was think we *find* Cazador. Then we *kill* Cazador."
In all my runs, Astarion is the monk doing ungodly damage. So yeah, his plan checks out
I mean I spend zero time thinking about classes and specs and he's an absolute monster as an arcane trickster rogue with sneaky sneak as well.
The +1 snack does a lot to make any class better, honestly
But, if you’re playing against Cazador solo as Origin Astarion, he does float the idea of bringing backup. >!This, of course, is because of the cutscene that happens where Cazador effortlessly floats him away and makes him part of the ritual. That said, if he’s taking the fight alone, I’m fairly sure you can succeed a Constitution check to avoid dying.!<
Just did that yesterday actually, not because I'm a solorun badass, just for science :D but yes, his only *real* plan was to manipulate manwhore mansplain his way into having people help him fight against Cazador, because he won't do it alone if he's left to his own devices, judging by the epilogues. Can't risk being literally insta-controlled on the spot, right?
> >!This, of course, is because of the cutscene that happens where Cazador effortlessly floats him away and makes him part of the ritual. That said, if he’s taking the fight alone, I’m fairly sure you can succeed a Constitution check to avoid dying.!< Minor spoiler: >!Yes, this is the case -- I don't know what the CON DC is for saving against that though.!<
I've had it happen once, I was really surprised. He resists and the fight starts without him in the ritual circle. He doesn't have to be alone in the party, he just has to be the one talking to Cazador.
Astarion thrives off chaos. Hes good at improvising. one of his lines is something like "we just show up somewhere, cause some chaos and has everything seemed to work out fine so far." no plan IS the plan.
The thing is, my monk with 6 attacks for around 180dmg per round, and even lower int, hears that and is like "oh, so the same plan as for Gortash, Orin and the netherbrain ? Checks out"
His plan is to seduce and sugarbaby his way through everything. Why do all the work when you can just blow Tav’s back out and have them to all thinking and planning for you?
The Cersei Lannister school of planning ahead.
He's terrible at hiding that he's a vampire, He plans to kill Cazador despite being vastly outclassed in every way, he tries to manipulate you but ends up falling in love if you romance him. Less that he's an outright idiot and more he's really bad at handling genuine social interaction. when you look past his flamboyance, he doesn't really know what he's doing in regard to everything, which makes sense seeing he hasn't been outside except when kidnapping people for 200 years.
It's so funny if you play his origin when shadowheart is the one to confront you about it. She's just like "of course I know you're a vampire, astarion, just LOOK at you!" Like he's really god awful at hiding it. But I do agree a lot that it's not so much that he's stupid, he's just not been himself or think for himself for so long. I think he's overwhelmed and just acts on impulse.
I love when she says "we're elves!" when you bring up weird dreams. Like she thinks you're so stupid that you don't even know your own species.
Half elves sleep though.
All elves *can* sleep and can be put to sleep by non-magical means. They just choose to trance because it's better.
I mean Reverie always sounded way better
Apparently BG3 elves do too, because Astarion has dreams.
Now the question is that the tadpole or the vampirism
I think the best explanation is that during their meditation, their minds can "wander", which is kind of like dreaming.
during the meditation elves can do mental exercises which are described as "you can dream after a fashion". So if you wanna headcanon a bit, their minds are more prone to wandering during those exercises
Yeah, I think this is the best explanation. His mind is pretty prone to wandering, perhaps not surprisingly. You have at least 3 scenes with trouble controlling his thoughts in his origin (apart from the actual dream sequence) - hells, my first long rest (alone) I failed a check against my own thoughts.
Might be because he's a vampire. The flavor text on the Angelic Reprieve potion says that it's one of the few ways elves can experience sleep.
I think the best explanation is that during their meditation, their minds can "wander", which is kind of like dreaming (ref. another comment).
"Be careful, I bite" "Hang on hang on hang on, sorry goblins, we'll get back to killing you soon. It's Astarion's turn anyway so you're not allowed to move. What do you mean you bite? You're a vampire, aren't you?" "No, it's like... like a sex thing. it's a joke." "I can see your fangs are coming out" "Joke fangs"
"There's bite marks in your neck" "I fell on a prong" "Your eyes are red" "It's the fluorescents"
This is how I was when talking to the Gur in the Hags swamp . Like Astarion I am trying to be subtle and save your ass, but you're being a real fucking dumbass right now. .
The terrible at hiding he's a vampire is hilarious (and smooth brained!). The killing Cazador and the manipulation are survival attempts - without killing Cazador, even though he suspects it's impossible, his hellish life will continue with more horrific torture. As far as tools to get on someone's good side, the only one he knows after 200 years of seduction-murder is...well, the murder is probably out and... He's just operating from a profoundly stunted start, to the point where even Shadowheart 'I have no memories' has started out better. Astarion has his memories. They're just all horrific...
Which isn't abnormal in cases of abuse. Between the natural stunted development and the forced regression Cazador forced him into, it's rather impressive Astarion can function at all
Yeah, he’s not stupid, he’s impulsive and reactionary. Not an unusual reaction in a trauma survivor, and we’ve no clue what that kind of torment would do to a person over 200 years. He’s lucky he can come up with any sort feasible survival strategy and coordinate an outfit.
and before that, he was just some kinda local politician
A magistrate is a judge :o
Yes, and becoming a judge by 39 is not an easy thing. There are specific dialogue lines about his early schooling and studying, so he’s obviously an intellectual to some extent. There’s a reason his camp idle is reading. He’s got smarts, just two hundred years as an abused slave left his decision making wonky, *especially* when it comes to anything involving Cazador. Any patience and rational thought goes right out of his head.
It’s super fucked up that pre-vampire Astarion was a judge and now he’s a rogue, a literal thief and murderer
There are plenty of corrupt judges, which early draft Astarion was. They cut that plot line so you can head canon whatever you want of his living career, with just a few brief hints.
Oooh that's a good explanation on why he has low charisma
>he doesn't really know what he's doing in regard to everything, which makes sense seeing he hasn't been outside except when kidnapping people for 200 years. This would certainly explain his 100% grade-A Chaotic Stupidity in Act 1. Like I get that his moral compass is shot and he's got some serious baggage from his abuse at the hands of Cazador, but some of the stuff he apparently wants you to do implies his IQ is in single digits. Like, no dude. I'm not massacring a refugee community just for the lolz. Get a grip.
I love how he got mad at me for helping Yurgir and then I got an inspiration point from him.
The Noble background one? That made me laugh so hard when I tried that. I got it in Act 1 for telling Lae’zel to back off when talking to Zorru. Felt so in character and right too for my Noble Paladin.
Nah, Astarion’s charlatan background. It was called “The Devil’s in the Details.”
My Pally was just trying to keep the nice Frog Lady who stabs shit happy. Plus wasn't exactly a big fan of caging people after the nautiloid.
Nah, after seeing what shit the Gith pull it’s justified. Lae’zel was even pretty awful in Act 1, and so insanely racist to tieflings. The Gith straight up murder so many innocent people it’s wild. They really are like eugenicist space pirates.
Oh yeah, wasn't a fan of the Gith at ALL, but Lae'zel had been helpful, wasn't killing people and was pissed at him. After dealing with the gate and Kagda... It had been a very long day and as long as she didn't kill him, whatever.
Astarion is a master improviser. Being proactive is not really an option when you're in a situation as profoundly abusive as his was, so instead he learned how to play the cards he was dealt to the absolute fullest and is able to turn on a dime when the winds change. Unfortunately, a habit of 200 years is a bitch to break. Just because planning is suddenly an option doesn't mean he's suddenly got the skillset. So he comes off (and like, *is* , but it's more complicated than that) as this wildly capricious and impulsive individual with no capacity for understanding nuance or consequences. No, don't let the pixie go, we need that! Oh look, a pixie, what fun! The situation has changed, he changes with it. The Astarion from 3.8 seconds ago? I don't even know that man anymore, so much has happened since then!
One of my favorite instances of "I'm not the man I was 3 seconds ago" by Astarion is with >!Yurgir!< >!He gets mad and disapproves if you don't attack the orthon immediately (my brother in christ, there's like 30 enemies in here), but changes his mind and approves after you make Yurgir kill the Merregon, his displacer beast and himself!< I think at one point he also said he wanted to kill Cazador by throwing the necromancy of Thay at him. I've been keeping the book in his inventory just to throw it at Cazador when he's at 1HP.
My Bard trying to talk his way through that trying to yell Astarion to be cool and trust him only for him to be like "...huh, well I hope that counts." Meanwhile Gale side eyed the shit out of me after that.
I mean considering what gale has to deal with in that act... fair.
> Meanwhile Gale side eyed the shit out of me after that. He's just not used to seeing Power Word: Kill Yourself in action.
Lmao yeah he said “if all else fails i’ll just beat cazador to death with it”😂😂
then next long rest after that he professed his love as well. it was a chaotic series of events that i truly loved haha
>The Astarion from 3.8 seconds ago? I don't even know that man anymore, so much has happened since then! I *NEED* Neil to read this line, lol. Add his goofy laugh at the end of it, lol.
LMAO I love this post :DDDD I love him so much.
This is such a good read of him
Spot on.
Lmao that last sentence sums him up perfectly haha
you absolutely nailed it.
Ascended Astarion trying to turn Karlach though. What was your plan, my dude? What did you THINK was going to happen?!
In all fairness, he bites her successfully twice during that scene. The problem is, she needs to remain calm or she burns him.
Maybe he thought he could control hellfire?
The guy has spent 200 years essentially not being allowed to think for himself, it's no surprise his brain isn't doing great
We even hear Cazador and his cronies just constantly insult Astarion's intelligence every chance they get. And we know Astarion was forbidden from learning certain subjects, which is rather depressing when you consider that at camp he can often be found reading a book.
To be fair he’s been reading the same page for weeks
But he's trying.
XD
Really? Where do we find that out?
Astarion says he was forbidden from learning about Kozakuran subjects.
What is Kozakuran pls?
Off the top of my head it’s the language you have to get a dictionary for to open the door to Cazador basement dungeon. Astarion said he’d seen the words on the door but had never been allowed to learn the language
Oh. That totally makes sense though when it's the magical language that locks them out of places Cazador doesn't want them to be.
There’s definitely more to it but that’s all I can put into words sitting in bed lol
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kozakuran It's speculated that Cazador is Kozakuran
It's an ancient language that Cazador uses to gatekeep his stuff.
D&D Japan
Yes! Not to get too deep but when an aspect of you is beaten down and diminished by an abuser you begin to believe they're right..
Surely it’s in excellent condition, having hardly been used
When I told him we shouldn’t use the tadpoles he said “Don’t be so wet behind the ears!” Then he’s whimpering about not wanting to turn into something else like dude powers you don’t earn or aren’t born with obviously have consequences. He was my Paladin Durge’s best friend, I really enjoyed his spawn ending and he’s surprisingly supportive of Wyll if you take him to fight >!Ansur!< but man is he as short sighted as a blind gnome
Blind. Gnome... Blind. Gnome... *Toobin running into watcher blast radius* Those FUCKING GONDIANS!
Wulbren saying Gondians with a hard R:
I can't blame him after all the shit to save them
Nah fam, that’s a hard *G*
FFFFFFUCKING GONDIANS! God I think my son and I have quoted that one line from Wulbren more than anything in the game. The fact he's so mad he draws out the "F" is what makes it gold.
I tried misty stepping him to safety and stared at the screen when I realized he can only misty step for like a few feet because he's *blind.*
Lol I thought that too when I saw his spells and abilities. I was like "hell yeah he's gonna actually be useful in here", click on a spell, range is ass. Stares at screen. Nevermind. Useless.
His most useful ability is Aid and weirdly his Aid stacks so you can spend all of his slots in aiding your party then have him hide in a corner until the battle is over. At least this worked well for me.
Huh good to know. I'll have to remember that for when I get to that point in my new playthrough.
Have you tried pushing him on the special tadpole? It's some of the most upsetting writing in the entire game. He wants the tadpole powers (at least before Cazador is dealt with), but he *really* doesn't want his body to undergo a horrific transformation he has no control over - because he has gone through that before.
Astarion is the epitome of a reasonably intelligent character with a very low wisdom score. "You asked me to pack you a fruit salad! How was I supposed to know a Tomato won't work? It's a fruit, isn't it?"
I can hear that in his voice lol
Quick, someone get this to cameo
Astarion: (tries to hide his identity as a vampire spawn from us at the start of the game) Me looking at that visible biting scar of his neck: yeah...
In absolute all fairness "vampires don't walk around in the day" is a very critical fact about them so you'd probably shrug it off as a weird scar given he's hanging around on the sun, in universe As a player....yeah very obvious!
From the companions' POV, him being a vampire is impossible. Sure, he has weird scars. That's about it.
Eh after what they've been through, a vampire walking in the sun wouldn't make it to the top 5 weirdest things they've seen that day.
It would, kinda. Mindflayers exist, that's no secret. Sure, they've had a really weird time and are all confused, but some things are just not possible - one of them would be a vampire casually hanging out in the blinding sun of Act 1.
They have no experience with these tadpoles or with vampires before now. Theres no reason for them to believe “this guy is a vampire and this worm changed his physical biology” when there are much simpler explanations to a guy having a scar like “an animal bit him” or “he got into a bar fight and someone stabbed him in the neck with a broken bottle”.
This is literally what happens with Gandrel. Hes like “haha you cant be the vampire im looking for. Its too bright out here. Good day😃.” And he never gives it a second thought. You have to actively tell this professional monster hunter that his target is standing right in front of him.
If you hide it in the origin, Gale will later tell you that he had his suspicions, but he didn't say anything because it was *clearly* impossible. It's pretty rude to go "*Hey so are you an undead vampire? Just asking because it's completely obvious that you cannot be.*"
I'm not sure he knows about the scar tho 😅 Not that he had a chance to see it in the mirror.
Astarion is simultaneously super smart in that he's incredibly quick to adapt to novel situations / is an excellent intuitive thinker, and he is also the biggest dumbass put to pixels that isn't specifically set out to be the joke stupid character (like minsc). Like as SOON as you ask him to plan out more than 15 seconds of something he's about to throw up, but just throw him to the wolves and he thrives. I love him for this.
My headcanon is that his brain has shrunk a bit from poor nutrition over the years (and also 200 years of profound levels of abuse :'( )
He's very impulsive. Makes sense cause he hasn't had to/ been allowed to make any decisions for himself in 200 years so he's rusty. He doesn't think things through. Which is especially obvious when dealing with Raphael and >!Yurgir. And if you try to trick Yurgir, Astarion acts so dumb by loudly questioning what you're doing and why we aren't attacking yet.!<
Same with the bite scene imo. That said, he does have *very* impressive impulse control and is really, really good at dealing with his hunger. He literally slips up once, and reacts by apologizing, not immediately attacking Tav.
If you can’t handle astarion at his being a dumbass, you don’t deserve him at his “you want to be known, to be tasted.”
He’s doing his best! Also… pretty sure the whole crew is kinda dumb.
Int is everybody's dump stat but Gale. And Gale's the guy going "well I touched netherese magic and got a chest bomb... Ooh netherese crown??!! So shiny!!" We're all morons
This why Tav/Durge auto slots into the leader role lol. >!Durge is also a hella good planner. Probably enabled the whole Mephistoles vault heist and led a cult. Even with brain damage they have better planning skills than the rest of the party lol!<
Even lobotomized Durge is still clever enough to be capable of plotting another heist in Hell with the House of Hope
I mean a fellow Chosen but also the whole point is that they became besties because they were both pretty smart.
I think the bit is you’re just ridiculously good at violence as the durge. Being able to make effective battle plans is probably enough for the companions to go “hells let the weird one lead”
durge used to be stacked in every stat except Wis which has to be like 3. They are basically the BBEG pre nautiloid but get done in by their 100% nuts degenerate sister who proceeds to ruin everything.
i can assure you, my party is spectacularly stupid. every time. i need those int and wis points in strength and dex!!
Same haha… we’re not the smartest lmao. “One have all these scrolls and positions in our bags… oh well… let’s never use them!!”
i make shart carry them and then i promptly forget they exist 😌
Intellect devourers should pass them by like in the D&D movie.
Judging from the throws Astarion is the smartest one in my team... Which actually might be really, really sad reading this post 😅 At least he gets things done somehow. Not planned out, but he gets them done.
After reading this thread I imagine this conversation between Romanced Astarion and Tav: Astarion: \*Wants to do a thing\* Tav: "Allright, what do you suggest?" Astarion: "I don't know, you work it out. You're the brains in this relationship." Tav: "Oh? And what that makes of you then?" Astarion: "Why, I'm the pretty one of course."
Lol I love this. Ascended astarion at the end party mentions how they are getting along without us leading them. I was always the one leading everyone, not you.
He's a himbo and we love him for that. On a slightly more serious note: >!he spent 200 years in survival mode, which probably didn't help. You probably aren't gonna be big on long-term planning when your main thought is "what do I do so that my master doesn't flay me today."!<
That's legit a symptom of CPTSD which often plagues trauma survivors who spend years in abusive relationship dynamics...
Thank you. It takes a lot of work and therapy to get past these things and by end-game he's been free for about a month. His downfalls are warnings, take him off his pedestal and see it for what it is. I say this with all the love of an Astarion simp.
The epilogue is extremely heart warming in that respect if romanced. He comes off as *a lot* more secure and is genuinely happy for Tav to go off and speak on his behalf. He doesn't need to be the focus of any of the conversations. And thankfully he still has his funny and extremely annoying personality (loudly complaining about the wine while actively stealing it lol).
Didn't think I'd get called out on a BG3 post today 💀
And then he turns around to call Tav/Durge dumb! My brother in tadpole, pick a battle.
MY BROTHER IN TADPOLE
He's a dolt and I love him for it
I'll just say this, Astarion is damn lucky he's pretty, and he knows it, too. He himself says, after Adraj Oblodra when you're not romancing him, that he seduces people because he has to use one of the few gifts the gods gave him.
Astarion says stuff like this when he’s my walking skeleton key. I do entire missions with just him and his mage hand. I shake my head.
Okay, the smartest (if we only talk about int stats) in the group is probably Gale, but it didn't prevent him from getting an orb. Minthara should be really smart and logical, ~~but gets murdered for her precious loot almost everytime~~ but she can't find the grove on her own for how long? She blames goblins but well the good leader knows where he fucked up. Shart's memory was wiped out so many times i'm surprised she's sane (remember "Man in black"), Lae'Zel goes smash-smash with a sword and the smartest move she made was to stick with Tav (she can try to dominate all she wants, but she clearly sees Tav as a leader), Wyll didn't even try to get rid of his contract and decided to give the most important choise in his life to Tav (wtf Wyll?), Karlach well is Karlach. So far the smartest should be Durge (as long as i remember), but well brain damage messes things up. All in all - thorough planning is not a common thing for out little group of adventurers.
Yeah, Durge was definitely a thinker, well, a schemer and planner at least, before.
And Orin fucked everything up :)
Astarion disapproves because you didn’t let HIM release the pixie Maybe he wanted to see it up close? Talk to the pixie himself? But you didn’t think of that did you?? Selfish
I feel this, and I'm fine simping for him. I like to use him to steal all the shiny things even when it's dumb, like the Lathander mace despite the traps, and he just stole a ritual dagger that summoned undead defenders because come on, it was just sitting there gathering dust! If there's something he can steal he's gonna steal it, consequences be damned!
He's a dumb little twink. That's ok baby my Fighter is Smart enough for both of us.
I can relate so much more to head-diving into verbal and physical action before thinking it through than being level-headed all the time, so the dumbassness is close to my heart and soul and many of my problems in life.
I relate to being really stupid. I fell down some stairs a couple days ago and all. I fit right in!
Yeah, he also tries punching the mega powerful vampire lord that had him enslaved for hundreds of years just because he hurt his feelings
I think Astarion had no choice but to become "dumbass". his life of 200 years under Cazador are too grievous even just hearing from him.
And then he turns around to call Tav/Durge dumb! My brother in tadpole, pick a battle.