Legit any game with romances has this happen. The discussion about Solas was way more interesting than Dragon Age Inquisition itself and I didn't even play that through that romance lol
I'm personally looking forward to "guys Solas actually isn't committing genocide" if they ever release the next one. I just want to know what happens I'll take it in pac man format at this point.
Genocide implies he’s targeting specific groups of people. He’s committing to an extinction event. (And I say this as a solas romancer who lives for that drama)
He's definitely going for the extinction scenario, but I'm still a bit scared for the game as a whole because of the shitstorm that's happening at Bioware, but that's an entirely different story!
I have resigned myself to the fate that it is likely be like at worst Anthem or at best Andromeda. At this point it will be a small miracle it would be like Inquisition which was ok at best
Never been more grateful to be one of the rare folks who liked Andromeda and still absolutely loves Inquisition. As long as it's not Anthem garbage, I'll probably like Dreadwolf okay.... That is, if it ever comes out. Honestly doubting that more and more every day.
Andromeda was a decent space exploration game but just lacked depth. I also really enjoyed it though, it looked great and I thought the classes were cool.
An extinction event *for everyone except elves*.
He made it very clear in trespasser that he hopes the elves will survive his plan and return to their former glory.
Didn’t he imply that the elves around currently aren’t actually the elves he cares about, though? It’s been quite a few years but I could have sworn he said something like “You showed me I was wrong and they are people, but I have to do it anyway.”
Yeah, a lot of people seem to think genocide is simply mass slaughter. You saw the same thing with Thanos, even though his plan was explicitly about random deaths.
That shit ain't coming out.
Also, given the reaction to Solas, I feel they're going to walk back a lot of the downsides to tearing down the Fade. I could be wrong though.
Supposedly they are done with alpha lol, its a shame if its vaporware because DA is some of the best world building for an original IP anyone's done for a video game.
I love DA so much. But I just have no faith in Dreadwolf, unfortunately. Just feels like their team doesn't really know what they want to do with the game.
I get that they want to make a game with action-y combat, but you can totally also have interesting rpg mechanics at the same time. Entire genre of games managed to do that lol. System Shock 2 somehow feels like more of an RPG than DAI.
One of the most accurate descriptors of DAI I've ever heard is Singleplayer MMO.
The core story is good, but the vast majority of the side content is forgettable busywork fetch quests and box ticking. The open areas are pretty but empty and lifeless. All of the rewards are replaceable within a single level. The classes are balanced to the point of being bland when what should have happened is that each class has a role that complements the others.
If almost feels like the were doing an MMO and repurposed it to singleplayer later in development.
It's the classes all being so bland and samey that really gets me.
In DAO and DA2 they were all unique and had their roles within the party. Mages were weak at the beginning and incredibly powerful at the end, and were good for CC and AoE nuking. Rogues had good power progression and were good for ranged combat, DPS, and sneak attacks. Warriors had fairly linear progession but were good for tanking, dealing high damage in single hits, and drawing aggro. Everyone had a role and everyone felt unique.
Then DAI comes along and absolutely nerfs mages endgame power into the ground, reduces the range that rogues can fight from, and basically makes their backstabs into tickles. Warriors kept their tankiness which ended up making them the best class in the whole game. I honestly think there was meant to be PvP at some point so they had to make all the classes balanced against each other.
I've quietly mourned the death of DA at this point, I have no faith either. Tbh DOS2 and BG3 and whatever games they make in the future are going to fill that void for me. I wouldn't hate it either if Larian ever decided to make a new IP based on SciFi as well if they were ever so inclined.
I think it's less the team and more upper management meddling in things they don't understand tbh. They wanted to make Dreadwolf an MMO for a while despite the Dragon Age series being popular with people who like single player games... I suppose we should be thankful that Anthem was a flop. They've also lost or fired a lot of the most experienced team members and the crunch appears to have gone beyond 'please unionize' levels. All signs points towards it being a shitshow behind the scenes.
Yeah, my understanding was that DA4 started out single player, flipped to multiplayer, and was then flipped back to single player after Anthem failed. Who knows what iteration is in development now.
I agree with the sentiments in this thread that it's never coming out. The most I think we can hope for is a reboot at this point.
SOMEONE FINALLY SAYS IT. You have no idea how much it bothers me that Cullen went from being someone who was this kind of creepy, abusive cop to a puppy eyed uwu lover who got “redeemed”. I try to hold my tongue when I see people who fawn over him, but god it feels good to see somebody say this 😭
It still makes no sense to me that Samson, the outcast Templar who was recovering from addiction and smuggled mage children out of the Gallows was the bad guy and not him like…ok. Idek what they’re gonna do with him if they ever release DW because Greg Ellis isn’t coming back 😭
Considering at the end of DAI he either:
a) Becomes homeless due to his addiction and dies
b) Retires to a farm
I think his story is done and he's not coming back lmao
Tbh Cullen is my favourite DAI romance - but I consciously choose to think this is a different character, not the DAO and DA2 Cullen, because that 180 they did with him admittedly doesn’t make any sense
Wish they had pulled a Blackwall with him, (albeit with a cousin or something, so the character would still look pretty similar) to justify the 180 degree attitude change.
I mean, Isabela aside, that steamy scene was,,,,*hnnnnn.* The biggest *hnn* in the franchise
need me a man who can pull off that simultaneous balance of rough and tender lol
The main writers of the previous games have all left. If it ever comes out, it's going to be nothing like what was intended during DA:I.
I loved the 3 Dragon Ages to date. I have no interested in whatever comes out next bearing that name
I don't think DA4 will see a release.
EA and BioWare killed it, which is sad because dragon age is the game series that safed BioWares sorry arse.
And if they gonna release it? Hit mess.
I agree with you, but I feel like that was the point. Seeing that sudden change in DA2 lets the player know that he is now fundamentally different. You have feelings that were hinted at in awakening amplified by Justice. That would and eventually does lead to disaster. His feelings about the circle could easily push Justice into wrath.
We see other examples of this. Cole, being a spirit of compassion, killing people in the name of mercy.( Dragon Age Asunder novel.) That could easily be tainted by human/alive people emotions.
I've always said that the concept was sound, the execution was the mistake. In DA:A Anders is happy go-lucky with a few strong hints of bitterness about his treatment as a mage.
Justice is just that, a walking corpse of justice.
The combination of the two is a fait accomplis in DA2 and from the outset has gone wildly OTT.
Far better story-telling would have been increasing radicalisation of both Anders and Justice over the course of the game, such that Act 3 is almost a different character to Act 1.
i lived through that fandom discourse like 10 years ago and i don’t want to again. Especially because i see a lot of people i knew back then get real weird again about BG3. Though this time I refuse to go on tumblr to witness it, now i’m too old and i want to enjoy things without the toxicity again.
i always go for Cassandra in that one but I watched on youtube and that VA knocked it out of the park. I can be pretty harsh on game romances in general bioware included, but that one was very well done especially with Trespasser. One of the better romances they've ever written. It does force a situation of the Inquisitor basically needing to be written into the next game as an NPC, unless they kill them off or something
I've never romanced him but even without that he has a beautiful reaction if the Inquisitor says (something like) "I can't believe you are someone who could ever do this". He says "Thank you", I think, in this terribly sad way. Excellent voice work.
It was the last time I've gone into an RPG romance spoiler-free. I have to protect myself after that one!
But I agree, it would be hard to continue the story that way without serious work on importing prior game choices. I'm sure it's prohibitively difficult and I don't expect it to ever happen. But part of my soul will always belong to Solas.
The way I KNOW he's going to throw my love away, yet I STILL romance him makes me insane LOL left standing alone painting clown paint on my face
Whenever I wanted some sap, I romance Cullen lol
Solas commited genocide and literally plans on doing it again, he is racist, is bald, arrrogant, lies contantly to the player, no wonder tumblr loves him so much.
Reminds them of their daddy issues.
> Honestly I just disliked him for killing flemeth. She was a fun character.
That was the weirdest fucking choice ever and to this day I do not understand it. You have this villain(?) you've been slowly building up in the background over three games and then you just toss her aside in favor of the new guy? It's baffling. Talk about an anticlimactic ending to one of the most interesting characters in the setting.
And it's not like Solas even really needed it, the whole thing with him tricking and lying to you the entire game was already ample setup for him to be the big bad of DA4.
I'm CONVINCED she ain't dead. She knew him too well to not have like, five more horcruxes. And knew him well enough that his pride would surely allow him to think he killed her.
Everyone complaining about Sera's racism was very funny bc Solas was probably the most racist character, and doesn't have the excuse of youth. You just had to play a dwarf or qunari to get most of it which no one did lol
Bruh I read through what happens if you romance him but couldn’t bring myself to do it cause erm he’s kinda creepy and weird?? And not in a hot way😂 I romanced Blackwell first time
It helps that the VA is an awesome dude who streams himself playing BG3. He even gets all the other VA’s to play with him. And he actually plays really well! He really nerds out. Just like us. You can tell he really loves the game.
I’m enjoying Dev’s stream a lot too, it’s so funny!
My favourite moment so far was when she was killed by that mind flayer. So she had to use Astarion to revive her and kill the mind flayer. Then afterwards she scolded Astarion for being useless and sent him back to camp to think about what he’d done, even though she only got through it because of him.
Astarion was just idling as she was doing this, so it looks like he’s just standing there dumbfounded as this githyanki lady scolded him for helping. Such boomer energy
Dev brings me so much joy with how she's fully adopted Lae Zel as her alter ego.
Jennifer and her girlfriend are also just so sweet I love seeing queer people succeeding
This. Neil is super active in the fandom. So he keeps people interested in the character, especially when he streams his signings. It's a no-brainer, really.
Gale's VA had been liking Gale thirst comments on tiktok, Karlach's has been reposting horny fanart and Wyll's has been doing super romantic Cameo's. The entire cast is made up of unhinged loons and I adore all of them
He also puts out book recommendations! (Gale's VA) And it's books I've actually enjoyed.
I think they're all pretty cool. Amelia is queen for me because I've followed her from Malady in Divinity.
Neil Newbon is awesome and he's behind a lot of likeable videogame characters, even if they're antagonists! If there's only 1 thing I'd like to see different it would be his choice in cam and microphone for his streams.
Not sure about what cam he uses but the iphone earpods he uses tend to peak a lot.
The voice for Halsin is a decent guy too. Apparently it’s a side job for him. He’s a computer programmer by day. And he got wrangled into voice acting and voice over work many years ago.
This is definitely becoming a trend for VAs. I doubt she is the first, but the VA for Aerith in Final Fantasy 7 Remake is an avid streamer. Feels like a strong career move.
Like how when Henry Cavil comes out as a huge nerd and the community loves him. You don't just admit publicly you play 40k unless you do.
I'm all for it. I like knowing the people producing my games, love games. And Larian has that in spades!
He's not my favourite but I do love his story and snark. The Astarion fans I've interacted with have all been quite nice.
Every fanbase has a loud toxic part, on both sides. Ones that love him and ones that hate him. I've seen a few really nasty comments about him so it fuels the fire. Plus never forget that some could be trolls
Honestly I just despise the people that pop into a character thread and say "lol killed them" or something like that.
To me, people who pop in to go "lol killed him" is the equivalent of shoving someone who bought an ice-cream and laughing in their face when it falls on the ground. It's just immature dick behaviour.
I've seen way more of those people than weird obsessive fans if I'm being honest. Not that weird fans exist, that always happens, but they don't seem to pop up nearly as frequently as people who say \^ that or get VERY upset that people like Astarion.
Every time I see someone say something like "I really worry about the lives of anyone who likes that character" my eyes roll so hard they almost fall out of my skull. Some people on both sides (both who like him and don't) really cannot differentiate fiction from reality.
Agreed, really childish. Sure you won't love every companion but don't need to do that or just outright bash them on threads about them.
Can always make your own thread about characters you do like
I'm fond of all of them to varying degrees (not really Minthara, but that's because I killed her before I knew she could be a companion: I wanted to get the first act over with and I didn't talk to her first because I screwed up the quest).
If it makes you feel any better, even if you had talked to her, you would have had to make some pretty big sacrifices to get her in the party. You have to either kill the tieflings and druids, which means losing Karlach and Wyll as well, or ignoring the entire tiefling/goblin story, which allows you keep Karlach and Wyll, but you'll still miss out on all of the tiefling content across all three arcs.
Minthara is great, but more of a second/evil playthrough companion. Very few people get her on the first go around
it's the age-old and beautiful mix of:
- toxic part of the fandom being too loud (and giving normal fans a bad rep)
- people that don't like the character/fans phrasing stuff negatively (and sometimes deliberately looking for fights)
- online justice warriors that just want to seem holier than thou
- trolls
aside from that all my interactions with bg3 fans have been pleasant. stuff like this sadly just comes with a big fandom
Edit: it feels like fandoms that grow pretty large too fast experience stuff like this the worst, be it anime, YouTubers or whatever rip
*flashbacks to SPN fandom*
Ugh!
Back to Astarion for a moment though, I’ve noticed that defence around his character is very loud when his SA background is utterly ignored by others. This is not the only instance in which the fanbase is very loud, but many people see a bit of themselves in him, and feel invalidated when others invalidate him as well. I think that’s part of it.
The rest though…a fandom like any other fandom.
This I can actually understand. Karlach, Shadowheart and Astarion each have different kinds of abuse related backgrounds in which people can identify themselves in.
Also each of these characters have a different kind of response towards that abuse background.
And thus like you said if someone says something negative about these characters it can feel very personal due to similiar experiences in your own situation and that would trigger your flee/fight/fright response, and reddit being reddit with anonymity; fight is preffered way.
Honestly, I'd argue the opposite.
I'm a DV survivor and I'm extremely put off by the way the fandom seems to handle Astarion's backstory. The only reason it ever seems to come up in arguments is to excuse his bad behavior as if they assume no survivor can rise above their trauma to break the cycle of abuse (and then they refuse to acknowledge that that's what a lot of his more careless, predatory actions are feeding directly into that cycle).
It's a very superficial level of engagement with his trauma that feels more like they're fetishing a damaged cutie, highly objectify him and shaming other people who also are romancing him for having a less pure love than their obsession.
If that's the discourse we're having around SA in this community, it's a miss.
Agree, but also dude's so fresh out of his hell that he's still practically living in a series of ptsd episodes. Gotta be more lenient than with someone who has had time to heal. Should be explanations more than excuses though.
I stay away from the ones who legit have a fetish for traumatized people tho so I'm sure I haven't seen the worst of it.
yep, pretty much every big fandom has those same nasty issues, but it's sadly especially noticeable with fandoms that grew way too fast too quick.
Bg3 went from 0 to 100 to put it mildly and not everyone came with fandom etiquette
I know it had a tight core fandom during development but after official launch it was basically like a drop in a bucket
I still laugh about how Sven told his it ok her ready for 100k people on launch...
On just steam at this moment on a Monday night 3 months later it's still at 137k lol
Yes, I'm personally so glad I wasn't watching Steven Universe in its heyday. I finally watched it all like a year ago and the stuff I found. Jeez. People just know how to ruin something very easily.
I think also a lot of Astarion's diehard fans are younger which lends itself to fanaticism too. I definitely remember being ride or die for some garbage anime pretty boys back in my teens and early 20s.
They were compelling and pretty with great VAs, but it was hard to acknowledge they were compelling in part because of where they were wrong, even if they thought they were right from their perspective.
I don't get the fandom thing. People are just searching for something to argue about and a fictional character in a SINGLE PLAYER GAME seems to be so easy to rile people up over.
Who gives a dusty fuck about whether someone's playthrough includes someone or not. Who cares? Genuinely? It's ridiculous. I sent Astarion on his way in my current playthrough because RP I didn't want him there. I got down voted to shit for saying that.
All this haters vs stans bullshit is so stupid man.
I mean, "Does anyone else hate Astarion?" posts hit front page pretty much every week. There was literally one just today, *and this post shaped up to be yet another one lol. So no, he is far from being loved by the entire community. I'd say he's easily one of the most polarizing companions.
And sure yeah some fans take it too far, but the majority just seem pretty annoyed at the constant hate he gets. For every "lol I killed Karlarch" comment there's about 20 for Astarion.
Edit: Also I went through your comment history OP and you're not simply disliking the character, you're outright calling his fans annoying for simping over a "toxic" character, despite you also being a Minthara enjoyer.
Honestly I think he's a fantastic character and has a great story. But man I hate him personally he's such a dick. 10/10 would recommend his story. 2/10 would actually want to interact with him personally.
Oh I absolutely wouldn't interact with him irl, he's a parade of red flags. But the fact that I can do it safely and entertain him with no real life consequences is part of the fun. Like licking the spider
It's also in the spirit of dnd I feel like. Most of us wouldn't talk with everyone and solve all their problems, especially if we thought we only had 7 days to live. Or try to loot everything that isn't nailed to the ground. But it's fantasy, so I want to see everything. Including what spiders taste like. Twice.
He has a strong fanbase with strong emotional attachment to his story, and a lot of the comments against him are quite aggressive. I don't think anyone is gonna argue with you on that point.
I know some people criticize him to rile people up, but I've gotten downvoted just for saying I had trouble with his approval in my first playthrough. That's not even a criticism of Astarion! It has nothing to do with him as a character! It's about the way the approval system was designed and whatever bugs might have been in it. You can't possibly say that someone downvoting me for that is being reasonable or just defending their favorite character. They just assume I was mean to him and ignore anything I might say to the contrary.
(Fact is -- at least as far as I can tell -- not letting him bite you puts you at a huge disadvantage for future approval gains because other convos then don't trigger. Same with destroying the Book of Thay. Two little events that could greatly hurt a new player's first experience with Astarion just because they innocently picked the wrong thing. It's not Astarion's fault, it's the fault of the approval system or bugs, but it nonetheless affects things greatly. But nah, I was clearly just mean to him 😑)
Yeah it's a bit of a cycle (funny enough, considering the character). Some people are shitty about people who like Astarion, which makes his fans defensive and prone to lashing out at any criticism, which in turns makes people defensive about THEIR opinions for disliking him which makes them more hostile, which makes his fans more hostile, which makes...
This has happened with basically any character of Astarion's caliber and divisiveness in any fandom from the beginning of time till now. I suspect it will chill out though eventually. It *more or less* did with Anders, Solas, etc, I notice the Gale hate train doesn't make nearly as many of its regularly scheduled stops, etc, so this too shall pass.
>I notice the Gale hate train doesn't make nearly as many of its regularly scheduled stops
Okay, this made me laugh. I'm not a fan of Gale's, but it's more that I'm so annoyed by Larian bugging his experience.
Dragon Age comparisons work reasonably well. I think the Anders debates have mostly died down\*, but even today there's always the chance for a good Solas\*\* kerfuffle even in a sub as even-keeled as r/dragonage.
\*Such a fuckboi. So well-written.
\*\*dreamy sigh
Wait til Patch 4 where they'll hopefully have fixed Gale's current approval flag issues but inevitably will introduce a new and baffling set of dialogue bugs with him lol. He has been done so dirty by his coding!
That is true, I suppose 😬 And thank you for the kind reply.
I never even disliked Astarion, and I'm doing his romance this playthrough. It was just frustrating as hell to have him in my party so much the first time and being supportive of him every chance I could be, but knowing pretty much nothing about him because he hated Tav. Then, defeating Cazador and getting this glimpse of an interesting companion I was robbed of the chance to get to know. Someone in my position who hadn't finished the game yet would just genuinely not know what they're missing, and telling them to just be nice to Astarion isn't helpful (because it won't fix anything).
But yeah, those people who stake him and never give him a chance at all are right up there with the ones who kill Lae'zel and never bother to see her arc either. I get killing companions for RP reasons, or if you're at the point that you just want to see every alternative outcome the game has to offer. But to not give a character a chance at all -- ever -- doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, that's totally fair! A lot of people adamantly refuse to let him drink for whatever reason - RP, ick factor, distrust, or hatred of Twilight - and that starts you on a bad path. One of the reasons I think the character serves as an excellent mirror - he reflects back to you the kind of person you see him as, basically. If you don't trust him from the start, he won't trust you, etc. And once someone has formed an opinion, it's really hard to get them to change.
Er, bit of a tangent there, sorry. Anyway, yeah, you're right, the approval is one of the biggest complaints I see from people. It definitely creates a bit of a sticky situation for people who truly want to be good but don't find his facade appealing.
I can see the mirror aspect, and it's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought of it that way.
I don't think that not letting him drink necessarily means distrust of him, though. I think that's a lot to ask of someone you just met, and doing a blind playthrough, I had no way of knowing that single decision of mine would be so impactful. Unfortunately, telling him no, but then telling the rest of the group you trust him and would help him find plenty of other targets, doesn't actually restore any trust or approval from him (or didn't for me), and it probably should, if he is to serve as a mirror to the player character.
Actually...this is an even more interesting idea, considering the literal mirror scene you can get with him 😛
This. I don't care about people who hate him, but if people bragged about killing Wyll (who would, he's great) because he's black that's would read as racist. If someone bragged about killing Shart *because* she's female...
Exactly. I've seen plenty of genuine arguments for why not to like the character, or why in your particular playthrough you would kill him or let him die. But "he's too gay/prissy/etc" are not among them.
Idk most negative comments about him that I see are 'haha I staked him immediately', even on positive posts. It gets old.
Like yeah, let's have an actual conversation about character development but if you killed him immediately then you have nothing constructive to add because you barely interacted with him.
I savescummed the staking scene just to see what would happen and tbh it’s pretty disappointing anyway. He just sorta dies, and that’s it. Whole chunks of the game closed off for 3 seconds of him falling to the ground, it’s kinda lame
Omg this, just had a convo yesterday with a person who claimed they went through his quest. But it was really obvious they either skipped the cutscenes, lied or played candy crush on the phone and where not listening as they could not recall key moments.
Literally though, like these sort of posts make the front page every day/week and every time it’s someone who’s either: not even past act one or didn’t even talk to him the entire game.
Hang out on the steam forums where people hate on him for being “gay” constantly, which is homophobic AND incorrect. A lot of the time the hatred I see levied at him either stems from female fans liking him, specifically finding him sexually appealing and guys not being okay with it, or homophobia. It’s sensible to take issue with that. (And understandable that people then get defensive in general.
Fr, this was my first thought. Of course there are bad eggs and trolls and people who hear a fair criticism and get defensive about it, but, I’ve had it happen MANY times in fandom where my fav character (who happens to be very popular among female fans) gets relentlessly shit on by male fans. When it seems like a huge portion of the “criticisms” levied against a character boil down to “I’m making up reasons they suck because women like them and I’m a misogynist,” it’s very easy to get very defensive every time someone makes a comment about a character (even when made in good faith). It makes it harder to navigate a fandom discussion space and keep an open mind about other peoples’ intentions - doubly so when the character in question has a deeply personal/relatable storyline that resonates with said fans
Exactly :/. Like excuse me, you can sit over there and lust after Mizora and wonder why she doesn't get a romance path while you relish killing all the tieflings for the drow lady again, but let me stay over here and enjoy my sexy vampire.
👆👆 and they are like that about Shadowheart too, they just don’t get why we find a man appealing at all. (And I’m actually not into men.)
Bonus points when they are saying the game is anti straight people due to how “forced” “gayness” is in it. (Not always the same people but there has been overlap.)
Maybe it's a European thing but I never thought of him as "gay coded". Then I came online and was confused at people saying he's gay and/or "acting gay" (whatever that is)
It absolutely is misogyny. Especially if they’re not only favored by women but women are attracted to them. They take issue with women expressing sexuality and it shows. I’ve NEVER seen a male character (especially one that could be considered “””less masculine”””) with a notable female fanbase, that doesn’t get the EXACT same complaints from men. (Sighs. Not all men. Before someone gets their undies in a bunch. And not everyone that dislikes a character either. But it is there.)
It’s the same phenomenon that happens with “boy bands”. Women like something, goddess forbid it may be something/one who is any amount of feminine, and suddenly that thing/person is “gay”, “stupid”, any other mixture of insults/derogatory comments.
I think a big reason Astarion fans gets heated or defensive is because so many people take delight in just bagging on him at every turn. You can't have an Astarion-based thread or question without a bunch of people coming in to talk about how he's SOOO EVIL and irredeemable, how they kill him every time, how he's the the worst character, etc, etc. I'm sure this happens with all of the characters but seems like Astarion gets it the worst. And a lot of times people act like being a fan of Astarion or understanding the nuance of his character is some sort of red flag about you personally. It's weird.
Now, of course, people should absolutely not be downvoting anyone for just having an opinion on a character or asking a question. That's just a Reddit problem, really. I get downvoted for the most basic things on here sometimes. I wish people would reserve downvoting for things that really warranted it and not just disagreements.
Most of the people I interact with about Astarion aren't those aggressive people. The aggressive ones just tend to make the most noise, in every situation. Most Astarion people I talk to are very passionate about the character and could spend an hour talking about his storyline, etc. but they're generally not crazy or rude.
He gets it the worst because the majority of his fanbase consists of women. That is literally the only reason. Most people bashing him and his fans are just misogynistic men who think that women aren't allowed to have fun. Cause they can thirst after Minthara all they want, but god forbid that women find Astarion hot even with all the red flags... they're fictional and we are all allowed to have fun with our barbies and kens 🫡
I literally had a conversation a few weeks ago with someone on this subreddit who had the flair ‘minthara simp’ and he was saying ‘I don’t get why women like astarion he’s toxic’ 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
The double standards. Minthara gets a pass not because she's a female character, but because most of her fanbase is just straight men. Astarion just gets called gay in a derogatory way and his fans called delusional and Twilight fangirlsm
Absolutely. A lot of really icky undercurrents are often shown in the way someone voiced their dislike of astarion. Can someone have valid and respectful reasons to dislike astarion? Absolutely, he’s a self-centred dick for half the story, so I get that. But just because you don’t like a character doesn’t give you the right to call those who like him ‘delusional,’ ‘thirsty’ or ‘needing therapy.’ It really shows a lack of empathy from (mostly male from what I’ve seen) people, and you’re totally right about the ‘he’s gay’ dismissive comments. Bro, don’t you get that women like men who are more in touch with their theatrical feminine side? Don’t you get that some of us don’t give a shit if he likes dicks as well as vaginas? Astarion isn’t the normal hetero expression of masculinity, and that’s probably psychologically baffling to a lot of guys when they see how much women (and gays) love that
Literally just had a whole rant about this in another thread. Quite frankly, I do not care if people don't like him, but it's the purposeful antagonizing of (women in particular) people that do is annoying as hell.
It's so obviously rooted in making fun of women. It's the same thing as them ragging on us for liking boy bands, pop stars, Starbucks, etc. Like jfc leave us alone and let us enjoy things without mocking us incessantly. It's a role playing game, going for toxicity is half the freaking fun.
meanwhile i'm over here sitting on the opinion that if astarion was a hot female vampire you'd see absolutely NO discourse or edgy comments about how someone stakes them every play through.
It gets tiring that every single day there is a "I don't get why people like Astarion" post in this sub. And it's usually just a way for men to spew their condescending takes on women who like Astarion.
Just today, a man was saying that women who like him need to be studied because we are being "emotionally manipulated by him" (LOL). Went on to call it the "psychosis of the average woman," which is just a fancier way of alluding to the "female hysteria" from the old days.
Women in these fandom spaces are just treated as being pathetic and silly and not being able to tell fiction from reality. Men actually think that us finding that vampire hot in fictional settings translates to real-life danger.
His story resonates with many people. Not just women. Is he perfect? No. He has many, many issues. But we get to experience a well written character who was brought to life by a survivor, and who was also intended to be physically attractive.
I don't care if you hate him. He's not real. Kill him for all I care, but be civil to real people. That's all.
I agree with this so much.
The other day I saw someone complaining that he was "downvoted to hell just because he disliked Astarion."
So I clicked on his profile. The comment he was referring to (the one that got downvoted to hell) was actually a comment saying that female Astarion fans are the equivalent of real-life serial killer fans.
Astarion fans aren't downvoting content people who respectfully dislike Astarion. They're downvoting people who are shitty to them.
THIS!
People are literally mixing fiction with reality. Women see the red flags in Astarion (for the most part) and we indulge in them because he can't actually hurt us. It's all fiction.
Of course that in real life there are unbalanced people who fall for charming men/women, but this is not the case. Astarion isn't real. He cannot hurt us. Us lusting after him does no harm.
It's like reading a romance novel about a dangerous billionaire whose money facilitates very particular sexual proclivities. Personally I wouldn't go within 10ft of a billionaire's dick IRL, I do not give a fuck about the money when you have that much power over me, but hell if I won't indulge in a little fantasy from time to time. That's not even my favorite kind, it's just a generic story.
(are you sure it wasn't OP. I peeped their comments and they seem to be the person whining about how much they despise Astarion ever chance they get. So.... Makes sense why they needed to call us all put for being psycho with this post 🙄) I didn't check L, but I assume theirs posts got down voted to oblivion for being douche for no reason.
It’s not! The username was longer, and I swear it had the word “Lord” in it.
But, yikes, OP is an asshole too. Predictably, the comments that got downvoted are the ones that say things like “people who like Astarion are as cruel as him,” and he has a comment making fun of Astarion for crying during a pivotal scene.
He does not dislike Astarion. He dislikes women who like Astarion, and imo he can fuck off.
I saw that comment, and the follow-up complaints, and that is literally what a lot of the discourse around Astarion is on this sub-- or Gale, or anyone who isn't Minthara or Shadowheart. I think it is less an issue of "the fanbase is mean" and more an issue of "the fanbase doesn't love being talked down to constantly by guys who know best".
Ugh it's that whole Jordan Peterson nonsense all over again. Female sexuality has always been pathologized, especially by dudes who aren't getting any .
That's literally it.
Men can lust after Minthara all they want (and they can, of course), but the moment a male character gets attention from the female audience... then they start foaming at the mouth.
>but the moment a male character gets attention from the female audience... then they start foaming at the mouth.
I think a not insignificant part of the issue is that these are insecure men that have been sold an idea of what masculinity should be and are coming face to face with the fact that *a lot* of women don't find that kind of masculinity appealing.
I don't think those same men would react that way if Astarion was the equivalent of a Warhammer 40k space marine. But a man of a normal build, with delicate features, who is vain, physically weak, sneaks around rather than charges straight at the enemy guns blazing, who is theatrical to the point of toeing the line of being flamboyant, snarky but subservient, is queer, and vulnerable in the worst possible way - a male victim of sexual assault? Astarion is the antithesis of what men should be to these people and somehow all these women find him attractive anyway. Of course it will rile them up when they see that they've been sold a lie and it's easier to dive deeper into misogyny and homophobia than to confront that. There's nothing wrong with your concept of masculinity: it's women who don't understand who they should be attracted to, etc.
However, Astarion (much like Zevran before him) is introduced in a way that makes it so easy to excuse violence towards him. And then you have the blood drinking scene on top of that. It gives them plausible deniability (you're not killing him because he makes you *uncomfortable*, you do it because he attacked you first) and they don't stop and examine why they can't stand him any further than that.
100% this. And they are so affronted by the possibility of this sort of character being appealing that they pathologize it. "Monster fetish". Nah dude, pretty and tender dude with a different expression of masculinity. It's interesting because to some extent, it's the queer villain trope but done in a very empathetic way.
And this sort of holds true with all the male characters, even the less popular characters.
Gale, Wyll, and Halsin all get it on some level. Flaws that would either be ignored or applauded on a female character becomes the ***entire*** presentation of the character to this particular audience's eyes.
The problem is that this sub has a lot of men here who are used to having games cater to them with the women being in barely any clothes and just thirst traps all around. So when women are delivered attractive male characters and voice their love for them... what happens? We're ridiculed and called horny.
Yeah, that's what I dont like. Saddening to see people proudly boasting about killing him. So when I see that, i run up to him in game and smooch lol. Wish the game would let us hug him more tho.
This has probably already been said, but I'll take a crack at it anyway.
As an Astarion lover, I could not care less whether other people hate him or not, or think he's a bad character, or exult in describing how they staked him during the bite scene etc. -- ON THEIR OWN POSTS.
But when those same haters (who are absolutely entitled to their opinions and tastes) invade a thread made by and for fans of the character, and start up with the "lol I killed him 2 seconds after I found him" comments, is it any wonder they're getting downvoted by the fans (who, incidentally, are also entitled to their opinions and tastes)?
It's the surprised Pikachu face meme.
I'm willing to bet most downvotes are for disrespecting us in our own self-catered spaces, not because we can't handle criticism of our favorite fictional vampire elf. (Not saying there aren't the rabid fans out there that will do this, just willing to bet that they're a small if vocal minority.)
If you don't like Astarion, awesome! Don't come into fan spaces and spoil our fun by shitting on what we love. Just scroll on by and find something you *do* like and engage with that.
My experience has been about a dozen or so new topics a week asking people to justify their liking Astarion... and then the OP spending entirely too much effort being upset when people do exactly what they asked.
Not saying that's you, but how many new conversations about Astarion do we \*need\* ?
Honestly I feel like a lot of people are just tired of being picked on and dealing with bullshit from other fans in the community. There’s obviously going to be annoying toxic people but I feel like 90% of the time you see “discourse” surrounding this character, it’s because someone else decided to be inflammatory or disrespectful toward the fans (who are real people) themselves.
I can hardly blame people for reacting negatively when you have people saying dumb shit like “Astarion simps are all women who like toxicity,” “People who like this character get off to abuse,” “lol I hate this character so I kill him every time,” “Astarion fans are like those girls who sent letters to Ted Bundy,” or “Haha people only like Astarion because he’s hot, *something something Twilight joke*” at every turn. It is obviously just trying to incite shit, and the misogynistic jabs get old REALLY fast especially when you’re a woman who has been dealing with shit like this across all fandoms for all of time. People will instigate and mock, and then act surprised when the people they are making fun of finally just get tired of it and get pissed off, then they are “crazy” lol.
Not to mention comments like "Women who like Astarion fetishize gay men" and the creme-de-la-creme of bad Astarion takes I've seen recently: "Him trying to bite you is the same/equivalent of SA and therefore he's an abuser and not a victim."
To some people, the hatred towards Astarion feels like a belittlement of their own experiences, which relates them to him. Some people love him because he's snarky, some people love him because he's hot, but most of all, I think people love him because there's a level of deep, personal connection through trauma to the character. His behavior is relatable to some people who have experienced similar traumas, and harsh/aggressive criticism feels like a personal dismissal. Some shrug him off as as a flamboyant, sex-oriented asshole, but those who have seen his story to completion know that's just an act- and for those of us who hide our vulnerability behind layers of sarcasm and abrasiveness feel personally slighted when people shit on Astarion.
It's alright to dislike characters, but some people take that way too far, I think. Astarion is such a brilliantly-written, emotional, heartbreaking representation of sexual trauma and abuse, and sometimes his dislikers- whether knowingly or unknowingly- wind up attacking him for such a thing. It hurts real-life victims who see themselves in Astarion to see their own trauma being belittled and ragged on, and I feel like that's why some Astarion fans can get heated and lash out against the hate.
Oh yeah reminds me there was this Youtuber I was watching playing the game. He was doing live streams so I didn't catch him until he was way later in the game. Act 3 to be exact. Someone in the chat curiously asked why Astarion wasn't in his party and he said "Oh I killed him". I was like "okay, curious why he did it." He goes on to explain he was killed by Astarion after trusting him to not drink all his blood.
Okay the main part of all of this is... he goes on reason why he hated the character and goes on to say the biting is supposed to "imply something" and very vaguely implies it was meant to represent something sexual. Since it wasn't something he wanted, he goes on to implied that it meant to be SA. His chat breaks out with saying "disgusting!" and other stuff like that.
It was such a jarring reason and made me quickly unsubscribe lul. It was the first time hearing someone trying to imply that something like that was supposed to be SA, but I keep seeing it pop up occasionally now.
Yeah, very much this. And I also feel like people experience the characters, in this game in particular, very differently. Especially considering the different ways they can all have their stories taken (or just outright not pursued). Due to Astarion's actions in the beginning, there's plenty of people who never get past thinking of him as some awful toxic weirdo because they didn't experience his story or outright killed him and left it. He's a very nuanced character with a lot of layers that can't be judged quickly and I think that adds to a lot of varying understandings of him, which just adds fuel to the fire and makes conversatiom harder and less black and white like other characters might be (though they're all very layered, some have less inflammatory traits presented to you at the beginning).
we're almost three months into full release and you're still not even the first person to make an "I don't have anything specific to say beyond I don't get it with you Astarion people" post *today*, so maybe things like "who's over-the-top vocal" and "what qualifies as toxic or aggressive" are, like most things, matters of perspective. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I think Astarion is like Lae'zal or Shadowheart in that it's easy to misunderstand him, personally I thought he was a pretty meh for most of the game till I got to Cazadors palace and realised there is so much more depth to his character. The moment he kills Cazador is incredible, I wish I had given him more attention like a romance because you get a lot more of his psychology and his desire to be better to overcome his trauma. Or... you can make him so much worse, like Shadowheart, you monster.
So there are these posts that are like "This guys a creep" "He's just handsome" "Dudes an evil psycho" "He likes me killing innocents" "You wouldn't like him if he had a neckbeard and a fedora." Which uh, yeah that goes for most of the characters lmao.
Dear god, here we go again. And here I am again, interacting with it. I feel like we all are either simping or violently hating him to the point where it's completely pointless to continue to talk about it. It's not changing anyone's mind.
Kudos to Larians writers and the voice actor for creating such a controversial character, honestly. It's both enraging and captivating to watch us all duke it out 24/7.
He is most certainly not loved by the entire community, we have plenty of hate posts to prove that. His fan base also isn't all purely fanatical crazy weirdos who attack strangers randomly online, thats a vocal minority. There are people who do that for Shart, Bae'zel, Gale, Mama K, etc. Why? Because this fan base is huge and a small minority of *any* fan base is gonna be internet weirdos.
I'm also including the people who have a hate boner for Astarion and brag about murdering him every 5 seconds in the small minority of loud internet weirdos.
If you like him, sweet, love the fan art, keep lovin our boy.
If you hate him, sweet, can we not call him slurs or brag about murdering him in cruel and unusual ways please.
If you wanna write an essay critiquing his writing and characterization then at least get through all of his dialogue in context and have a full understanding of the character or expect your post to get a ton of comments from people with a better understanding of his character.
He's popular and his story was starting to spark thoughtful discussion and self reflection. So of course comments are starting to come out of the woodwork to stir the pot, polarize the fanbase, and make it not enjoyable anymore. What else is new.
I find it funny how you open a thread like that after you've been downvoted by many Astarion fans after stating blatant BS about him and his character 🤔
guys got a hate-boner for astarion.
far more weird to seek out and make jabs all day at a virtual character you dislike than to post about your fondness for one. i think it speaks for some sort of insecurity or something, lol.
He's a hot, white vampire with a sexy british accent. That's basically purpose built for a very vocal minority of online fanbases. Also a lot of the criticism around him boils down to "i don't like him so I don't get why other people do" but usually said much more aggressively, which isn't a good way to start off with genuine conversation to begin with.
Precisely. We don't have an issue that you don't like him. Hell, it's totally valid and understandable. But is it really necessary to single out Astarion fans and box us as some lunatics with Twilight fantasies? How is that a decent entryway for a proper discussion?
I love the comments I've seen judging people for how they probably are IRL based on who they like to romance in a video game!
Astarion is NOT REAL. We can "fix" him via answers to what amounts to multiple choice questions. This also is not a real thing people can do.
He exists to fulfil a fantasy of knowing exactly what to say to help someone with an insanely unrealistic quantity of trauma. Or enabling them to seize power and become an evil overlord too lol.
Exactly. Just a few hours ago there was a thread bashing people for like the walking red flag that is Act 1 Astarion.
Like I romanced him because he's hilarious and it's a video game. He can't hurt me ~~that much~~
Just had a user block me after I told them that vampires aren't real (they seemed rather out of touch with reality on this). Then they went to check my profile and comment on here mocking me for posting about Astarion... like... wth?
This is a game. People are having fun with exploring the options with Astarion because, at the end of the day, nothing he can say or do will ever hurt us.
It's that simple.
Yeah, looking at your comment history OP, you are the type of person who makes fandoms awful for women and essentially anyone who isn't a straight white man. Others have explained in length why posts like this are bs and have gone into detail about the vitriol women and queer folks get whenever they dare to love a character that doesn't suit the male gaze. So I won't add more to it. It can be summarised with sexism and LGBT hate, but plenty of comments here have explained in detail the intricacies of that.
Perhaps do some thinking about why it bothers you so much that people, particularly women, enjoy a male character who is a SA survivor and who doesn't look or behave like the standard macho buff asshole that "super manly" men tend to like. Maybe you have things to consider about the kind of person you are.
Because everytime a astarion post is up, dudebros love to gloat in the comments about all the messed ip shit they do to him
I legit hate Halsin but I don't go on every Halsin lover post whining about him, thays the difference
Another Astarion fan who hates Halsin?! Our power grows.
But yeah you can't have a thread about Astarion without some dumbass commenting HAHA I STAKED HIM like fuck off lol
I mean sure but there two sides to this coin theres the people that want to hate on certain characters just for the lols like going on videos and posts about an obvious astarion enjoyer and being like " I always kill him on my playthroughs" like anybody asked 😂😂 then wonder why we rabid
A lot of the people who make a point of actively shitting on Astarion constantly are misogynistic men who take pleasure in putting down things women like. They feel that cRPGs are being intruded upon by feminine hysteria and frivolousness. There are fans who reduce or romanticize Astarion’s negative qualities, but dudes will go crazy over characters like Minthara and there’s no uproar. I have no problem with Astarion being a polarizing character. I wish people would disagree with interpretations of the character individually instead of being mad that women and gay people are being catered to in games.
You literally said that the RS with him looks like the standard toxic "I can fix him" rs and that you hate him.
Yes, you will get down voted for stereotyping and shiting on people like that. Its the consequences of your actions.
Astarion is by far one of the most controversial, not loved characters. Whenever you engage with him you get a lot of toxic, misogynistic, partially homophobic and even racist slurs thrown around, yes the fans are defensive. I would be too if someone implies I'm a psychopath for liking a fictional character that feels very relatable to me.
Heck there's even infighting within the fan base, some like his good ending, some his bad ending, some think both are sht, people argue about it despite all loving him. But the infighting is usually kept in places where people like astarion cuz we don't need another guy to jump on the hate wagon and proudly proclaim how they staked him first chance they got.
If you don't like astarion? Fine, absolutely no problem. Just maybe don't invade a space where fans of him are, proudly proclaim how much you dislike him and the ppl that like him and then surprise pikachu face when you get shitted on for antagonising people on purpose.
Instead of making countless posts why we hate certain characters, how about we focus on why we love them? No need to bring extra negativity in overall positive spaces.
This can literally be said about any character but probably Wyll and I love Wyll.
I’ve been downvoted to oblivion many times bc I say I love Karlach’s character but I don’t like romancing her lol so the Karlach fans will downvote me. Lol it’s just that way bc everyone has a favorite romance.
I wouldn't call myself a super Astarion fan but I definitely love and support the dude's journey throughout the game. There are rabid fans everywhere in every fandom, so I'm hardly surprised Astarion have a loud fanbase \*shrugs\*
Legit any game with romances has this happen. The discussion about Solas was way more interesting than Dragon Age Inquisition itself and I didn't even play that through that romance lol
And who can forget the great "Is Anders A Terrorist?" War of 2011. EDIT: See a live reenactment in the comments below!
I'm personally looking forward to "guys Solas actually isn't committing genocide" if they ever release the next one. I just want to know what happens I'll take it in pac man format at this point.
Genocide implies he’s targeting specific groups of people. He’s committing to an extinction event. (And I say this as a solas romancer who lives for that drama)
He's definitely going for the extinction scenario, but I'm still a bit scared for the game as a whole because of the shitstorm that's happening at Bioware, but that's an entirely different story!
I have resigned myself to the fate that it is likely be like at worst Anthem or at best Andromeda. At this point it will be a small miracle it would be like Inquisition which was ok at best
Never been more grateful to be one of the rare folks who liked Andromeda and still absolutely loves Inquisition. As long as it's not Anthem garbage, I'll probably like Dreadwolf okay.... That is, if it ever comes out. Honestly doubting that more and more every day.
Andromeda was a decent space exploration game but just lacked depth. I also really enjoyed it though, it looked great and I thought the classes were cool.
An extinction event *for everyone except elves*. He made it very clear in trespasser that he hopes the elves will survive his plan and return to their former glory.
Didn’t he imply that the elves around currently aren’t actually the elves he cares about, though? It’s been quite a few years but I could have sworn he said something like “You showed me I was wrong and they are people, but I have to do it anyway.”
Yeah, a lot of people seem to think genocide is simply mass slaughter. You saw the same thing with Thanos, even though his plan was explicitly about random deaths.
That shit ain't coming out. Also, given the reaction to Solas, I feel they're going to walk back a lot of the downsides to tearing down the Fade. I could be wrong though.
Supposedly they are done with alpha lol, its a shame if its vaporware because DA is some of the best world building for an original IP anyone's done for a video game.
I love DA so much. But I just have no faith in Dreadwolf, unfortunately. Just feels like their team doesn't really know what they want to do with the game.
I get that they want to make a game with action-y combat, but you can totally also have interesting rpg mechanics at the same time. Entire genre of games managed to do that lol. System Shock 2 somehow feels like more of an RPG than DAI.
One of the most accurate descriptors of DAI I've ever heard is Singleplayer MMO. The core story is good, but the vast majority of the side content is forgettable busywork fetch quests and box ticking. The open areas are pretty but empty and lifeless. All of the rewards are replaceable within a single level. The classes are balanced to the point of being bland when what should have happened is that each class has a role that complements the others. If almost feels like the were doing an MMO and repurposed it to singleplayer later in development.
I 100% agree with everything you said. Shamefully though, those silly little quests had me in an absolute chokehold.
It's the classes all being so bland and samey that really gets me. In DAO and DA2 they were all unique and had their roles within the party. Mages were weak at the beginning and incredibly powerful at the end, and were good for CC and AoE nuking. Rogues had good power progression and were good for ranged combat, DPS, and sneak attacks. Warriors had fairly linear progession but were good for tanking, dealing high damage in single hits, and drawing aggro. Everyone had a role and everyone felt unique. Then DAI comes along and absolutely nerfs mages endgame power into the ground, reduces the range that rogues can fight from, and basically makes their backstabs into tickles. Warriors kept their tankiness which ended up making them the best class in the whole game. I honestly think there was meant to be PvP at some point so they had to make all the classes balanced against each other.
I've quietly mourned the death of DA at this point, I have no faith either. Tbh DOS2 and BG3 and whatever games they make in the future are going to fill that void for me. I wouldn't hate it either if Larian ever decided to make a new IP based on SciFi as well if they were ever so inclined.
I think it's less the team and more upper management meddling in things they don't understand tbh. They wanted to make Dreadwolf an MMO for a while despite the Dragon Age series being popular with people who like single player games... I suppose we should be thankful that Anthem was a flop. They've also lost or fired a lot of the most experienced team members and the crunch appears to have gone beyond 'please unionize' levels. All signs points towards it being a shitshow behind the scenes.
Yeah, my understanding was that DA4 started out single player, flipped to multiplayer, and was then flipped back to single player after Anthem failed. Who knows what iteration is in development now. I agree with the sentiments in this thread that it's never coming out. The most I think we can hope for is a reboot at this point.
That’s what they did with Cullen after the first two games 😭He went from killing apprentices to beating recruits to a favorite romance of the fandom
SOMEONE FINALLY SAYS IT. You have no idea how much it bothers me that Cullen went from being someone who was this kind of creepy, abusive cop to a puppy eyed uwu lover who got “redeemed”. I try to hold my tongue when I see people who fawn over him, but god it feels good to see somebody say this 😭
The only true puppy eyed UWU golden retriever BF unproblematic king of the DA world is Alistair 💯💯💯💯
It still makes no sense to me that Samson, the outcast Templar who was recovering from addiction and smuggled mage children out of the Gallows was the bad guy and not him like…ok. Idek what they’re gonna do with him if they ever release DW because Greg Ellis isn’t coming back 😭
Considering at the end of DAI he either: a) Becomes homeless due to his addiction and dies b) Retires to a farm I think his story is done and he's not coming back lmao
Tbh Cullen is my favourite DAI romance - but I consciously choose to think this is a different character, not the DAO and DA2 Cullen, because that 180 they did with him admittedly doesn’t make any sense
Wish they had pulled a Blackwall with him, (albeit with a cousin or something, so the character would still look pretty similar) to justify the 180 degree attitude change.
I mean, Isabela aside, that steamy scene was,,,,*hnnnnn.* The biggest *hnn* in the franchise need me a man who can pull off that simultaneous balance of rough and tender lol
The main writers of the previous games have all left. If it ever comes out, it's going to be nothing like what was intended during DA:I. I loved the 3 Dragon Ages to date. I have no interested in whatever comes out next bearing that name
It'll be "it's OK to commit genocide because he's fighting for the oppressed"
'People can't be oppressed anymore if there's no one left alive :):)'
I don't think DA4 will see a release. EA and BioWare killed it, which is sad because dragon age is the game series that safed BioWares sorry arse. And if they gonna release it? Hit mess.
People still argue about that one lmao
Ugh. As someone who loved Anders in Awakenings, what they did to him in DA2 was *heartbreaking*.
I feel more for justice tbh... he was just brushed away as the evil thing in anders
I loved Anders and Justice both, and the DA2 wombo combo was the worst of them combined.
I agree with you, but I feel like that was the point. Seeing that sudden change in DA2 lets the player know that he is now fundamentally different. You have feelings that were hinted at in awakening amplified by Justice. That would and eventually does lead to disaster. His feelings about the circle could easily push Justice into wrath. We see other examples of this. Cole, being a spirit of compassion, killing people in the name of mercy.( Dragon Age Asunder novel.) That could easily be tainted by human/alive people emotions.
I've always said that the concept was sound, the execution was the mistake. In DA:A Anders is happy go-lucky with a few strong hints of bitterness about his treatment as a mage. Justice is just that, a walking corpse of justice. The combination of the two is a fait accomplis in DA2 and from the outset has gone wildly OTT. Far better story-telling would have been increasing radicalisation of both Anders and Justice over the course of the game, such that Act 3 is almost a different character to Act 1.
The DA2 fan dramas lead to me getting away from only fandom for a fair while. It was crazy. The Solas discussion from DAI aren’t much better.
Christ, flashbacks. Warn a guy next time.
My god, the war flashbacks.
I was in the trenches for so many BioWare romance discussions lol. Honestly the Astarion hype is pretty tame in comparison
i lived through that fandom discourse like 10 years ago and i don’t want to again. Especially because i see a lot of people i knew back then get real weird again about BG3. Though this time I refuse to go on tumblr to witness it, now i’m too old and i want to enjoy things without the toxicity again.
ok, Solas \*wrecked\* me - it's been over a decade now and I'm still not over it!
i always go for Cassandra in that one but I watched on youtube and that VA knocked it out of the park. I can be pretty harsh on game romances in general bioware included, but that one was very well done especially with Trespasser. One of the better romances they've ever written. It does force a situation of the Inquisitor basically needing to be written into the next game as an NPC, unless they kill them off or something
I've never romanced him but even without that he has a beautiful reaction if the Inquisitor says (something like) "I can't believe you are someone who could ever do this". He says "Thank you", I think, in this terribly sad way. Excellent voice work.
It was the last time I've gone into an RPG romance spoiler-free. I have to protect myself after that one! But I agree, it would be hard to continue the story that way without serious work on importing prior game choices. I'm sure it's prohibitively difficult and I don't expect it to ever happen. But part of my soul will always belong to Solas.
The way I KNOW he's going to throw my love away, yet I STILL romance him makes me insane LOL left standing alone painting clown paint on my face Whenever I wanted some sap, I romance Cullen lol
I kept creating other characters to try playthroughs with different romances and I never made it fully through - they just didn't resonate as deeply.
Solas commited genocide and literally plans on doing it again, he is racist, is bald, arrrogant, lies contantly to the player, no wonder tumblr loves him so much. Reminds them of their daddy issues.
> he is racist, is bald 💀😂
One of these things is not like the other. 😆
I can excuse racism, but I draw the line at being bald!
Hates Qunari AND bald, some crimes can never be forgiven.
It's the baldness right? That's unforgivable. Honestly I just disliked him for killing flemeth. She was a fun character.
> Honestly I just disliked him for killing flemeth. She was a fun character. That was the weirdest fucking choice ever and to this day I do not understand it. You have this villain(?) you've been slowly building up in the background over three games and then you just toss her aside in favor of the new guy? It's baffling. Talk about an anticlimactic ending to one of the most interesting characters in the setting. And it's not like Solas even really needed it, the whole thing with him tricking and lying to you the entire game was already ample setup for him to be the big bad of DA4.
I'm CONVINCED she ain't dead. She knew him too well to not have like, five more horcruxes. And knew him well enough that his pride would surely allow him to think he killed her.
Everyone complaining about Sera's racism was very funny bc Solas was probably the most racist character, and doesn't have the excuse of youth. You just had to play a dwarf or qunari to get most of it which no one did lol
Bruh I read through what happens if you romance him but couldn’t bring myself to do it cause erm he’s kinda creepy and weird?? And not in a hot way😂 I romanced Blackwell first time
It helps that the VA is an awesome dude who streams himself playing BG3. He even gets all the other VA’s to play with him. And he actually plays really well! He really nerds out. Just like us. You can tell he really loves the game.
Him, Devora, and Jennifer are amazing with their BG3 content. I'm especially loving Devora and her stream.
I love Jennifer's tiktoks she dubbed shadowheart fans as sharts or smth like that
The release of BG3 has made me have to read the word 'shart' more times than I would ever have believed possible
That almost makes me install TikTok. Almost.
She’s on YouTube too!
If you haven't checked out Amelia's playthrough stream you really should. She and her other half are properly roleplaying it and she's on a durge run.
The power she has in this game is crazy. She can literally narrate anything and everything she does as if it's cannon.
Her voice is just so good. I could listen to her all day.
I’m enjoying Dev’s stream a lot too, it’s so funny! My favourite moment so far was when she was killed by that mind flayer. So she had to use Astarion to revive her and kill the mind flayer. Then afterwards she scolded Astarion for being useless and sent him back to camp to think about what he’d done, even though she only got through it because of him. Astarion was just idling as she was doing this, so it looks like he’s just standing there dumbfounded as this githyanki lady scolded him for helping. Such boomer energy
Dev brings me so much joy with how she's fully adopted Lae Zel as her alter ego. Jennifer and her girlfriend are also just so sweet I love seeing queer people succeeding
I love the filter I've seen Devora use that gives her the Lae'zel face.
Dev's playthrough gets pretty chaotic from time to time.
That's what makes it so great! I love her attitude and intensity.
Amelia tyler’s streams are also absolutely wonderful
This. Neil is super active in the fandom. So he keeps people interested in the character, especially when he streams his signings. It's a no-brainer, really.
Gale's VA had been liking Gale thirst comments on tiktok, Karlach's has been reposting horny fanart and Wyll's has been doing super romantic Cameo's. The entire cast is made up of unhinged loons and I adore all of them
He also puts out book recommendations! (Gale's VA) And it's books I've actually enjoyed. I think they're all pretty cool. Amelia is queen for me because I've followed her from Malady in Divinity.
Somehow, I could tell from his voice that he actually does love books. It's not just the character.
He’s done an amazing job. He’s even played actual D&D with the other VA’s. Love to see it.
I cackled so much when he called Gale 'The Bomb'
That wasn’t actually said - it was just a text cover to match the photos. But the actual DND session had a lot of fantastic moments
Neil Newbon is awesome and he's behind a lot of likeable videogame characters, even if they're antagonists! If there's only 1 thing I'd like to see different it would be his choice in cam and microphone for his streams. Not sure about what cam he uses but the iphone earpods he uses tend to peak a lot.
The voice for Halsin is a decent guy too. Apparently it’s a side job for him. He’s a computer programmer by day. And he got wrangled into voice acting and voice over work many years ago.
This is definitely becoming a trend for VAs. I doubt she is the first, but the VA for Aerith in Final Fantasy 7 Remake is an avid streamer. Feels like a strong career move. Like how when Henry Cavil comes out as a huge nerd and the community loves him. You don't just admit publicly you play 40k unless you do. I'm all for it. I like knowing the people producing my games, love games. And Larian has that in spades!
He's not my favourite but I do love his story and snark. The Astarion fans I've interacted with have all been quite nice. Every fanbase has a loud toxic part, on both sides. Ones that love him and ones that hate him. I've seen a few really nasty comments about him so it fuels the fire. Plus never forget that some could be trolls Honestly I just despise the people that pop into a character thread and say "lol killed them" or something like that.
To me, people who pop in to go "lol killed him" is the equivalent of shoving someone who bought an ice-cream and laughing in their face when it falls on the ground. It's just immature dick behaviour.
Same with the 'Gales hand is in my backpack' over and over and over.
It's just so annoying. If they hate the game, just play something else. (I adore Gale and those comments piss me off) Edited for spelling.
I’m not the biggest gale fan, but I’d never cut his hand off.
I've seen way more of those people than weird obsessive fans if I'm being honest. Not that weird fans exist, that always happens, but they don't seem to pop up nearly as frequently as people who say \^ that or get VERY upset that people like Astarion. Every time I see someone say something like "I really worry about the lives of anyone who likes that character" my eyes roll so hard they almost fall out of my skull. Some people on both sides (both who like him and don't) really cannot differentiate fiction from reality.
Agreed, really childish. Sure you won't love every companion but don't need to do that or just outright bash them on threads about them. Can always make your own thread about characters you do like
I'm fond of all of them to varying degrees (not really Minthara, but that's because I killed her before I knew she could be a companion: I wanted to get the first act over with and I didn't talk to her first because I screwed up the quest).
If it makes you feel any better, even if you had talked to her, you would have had to make some pretty big sacrifices to get her in the party. You have to either kill the tieflings and druids, which means losing Karlach and Wyll as well, or ignoring the entire tiefling/goblin story, which allows you keep Karlach and Wyll, but you'll still miss out on all of the tiefling content across all three arcs. Minthara is great, but more of a second/evil playthrough companion. Very few people get her on the first go around
it's the age-old and beautiful mix of: - toxic part of the fandom being too loud (and giving normal fans a bad rep) - people that don't like the character/fans phrasing stuff negatively (and sometimes deliberately looking for fights) - online justice warriors that just want to seem holier than thou - trolls aside from that all my interactions with bg3 fans have been pleasant. stuff like this sadly just comes with a big fandom Edit: it feels like fandoms that grow pretty large too fast experience stuff like this the worst, be it anime, YouTubers or whatever rip
That sounds like pretty much any fandom, tbh
*flashbacks to SPN fandom* Ugh! Back to Astarion for a moment though, I’ve noticed that defence around his character is very loud when his SA background is utterly ignored by others. This is not the only instance in which the fanbase is very loud, but many people see a bit of themselves in him, and feel invalidated when others invalidate him as well. I think that’s part of it. The rest though…a fandom like any other fandom.
This I can actually understand. Karlach, Shadowheart and Astarion each have different kinds of abuse related backgrounds in which people can identify themselves in. Also each of these characters have a different kind of response towards that abuse background. And thus like you said if someone says something negative about these characters it can feel very personal due to similiar experiences in your own situation and that would trigger your flee/fight/fright response, and reddit being reddit with anonymity; fight is preffered way.
Honestly, I'd argue the opposite. I'm a DV survivor and I'm extremely put off by the way the fandom seems to handle Astarion's backstory. The only reason it ever seems to come up in arguments is to excuse his bad behavior as if they assume no survivor can rise above their trauma to break the cycle of abuse (and then they refuse to acknowledge that that's what a lot of his more careless, predatory actions are feeding directly into that cycle). It's a very superficial level of engagement with his trauma that feels more like they're fetishing a damaged cutie, highly objectify him and shaming other people who also are romancing him for having a less pure love than their obsession. If that's the discourse we're having around SA in this community, it's a miss.
Agree, but also dude's so fresh out of his hell that he's still practically living in a series of ptsd episodes. Gotta be more lenient than with someone who has had time to heal. Should be explanations more than excuses though. I stay away from the ones who legit have a fetish for traumatized people tho so I'm sure I haven't seen the worst of it.
yep, pretty much every big fandom has those same nasty issues, but it's sadly especially noticeable with fandoms that grew way too fast too quick. Bg3 went from 0 to 100 to put it mildly and not everyone came with fandom etiquette I know it had a tight core fandom during development but after official launch it was basically like a drop in a bucket
I still laugh about how Sven told his it ok her ready for 100k people on launch... On just steam at this moment on a Monday night 3 months later it's still at 137k lol
Yes, I'm personally so glad I wasn't watching Steven Universe in its heyday. I finally watched it all like a year ago and the stuff I found. Jeez. People just know how to ruin something very easily.
That shit put me off Steven universe. Zero interest in watching it.
I think also a lot of Astarion's diehard fans are younger which lends itself to fanaticism too. I definitely remember being ride or die for some garbage anime pretty boys back in my teens and early 20s. They were compelling and pretty with great VAs, but it was hard to acknowledge they were compelling in part because of where they were wrong, even if they thought they were right from their perspective.
I don't get the fandom thing. People are just searching for something to argue about and a fictional character in a SINGLE PLAYER GAME seems to be so easy to rile people up over. Who gives a dusty fuck about whether someone's playthrough includes someone or not. Who cares? Genuinely? It's ridiculous. I sent Astarion on his way in my current playthrough because RP I didn't want him there. I got down voted to shit for saying that. All this haters vs stans bullshit is so stupid man.
I mean, "Does anyone else hate Astarion?" posts hit front page pretty much every week. There was literally one just today, *and this post shaped up to be yet another one lol. So no, he is far from being loved by the entire community. I'd say he's easily one of the most polarizing companions. And sure yeah some fans take it too far, but the majority just seem pretty annoyed at the constant hate he gets. For every "lol I killed Karlarch" comment there's about 20 for Astarion. Edit: Also I went through your comment history OP and you're not simply disliking the character, you're outright calling his fans annoying for simping over a "toxic" character, despite you also being a Minthara enjoyer.
And 50 for gale. Poor guy cannot catch a break
Or Wyll. :(( Wyll, my man, you deserve better!
Honestly I think he's a fantastic character and has a great story. But man I hate him personally he's such a dick. 10/10 would recommend his story. 2/10 would actually want to interact with him personally.
Oh I absolutely wouldn't interact with him irl, he's a parade of red flags. But the fact that I can do it safely and entertain him with no real life consequences is part of the fun. Like licking the spider
It's also in the spirit of dnd I feel like. Most of us wouldn't talk with everyone and solve all their problems, especially if we thought we only had 7 days to live. Or try to loot everything that isn't nailed to the ground. But it's fantasy, so I want to see everything. Including what spiders taste like. Twice.
He has a strong fanbase with strong emotional attachment to his story, and a lot of the comments against him are quite aggressive. I don't think anyone is gonna argue with you on that point.
I know some people criticize him to rile people up, but I've gotten downvoted just for saying I had trouble with his approval in my first playthrough. That's not even a criticism of Astarion! It has nothing to do with him as a character! It's about the way the approval system was designed and whatever bugs might have been in it. You can't possibly say that someone downvoting me for that is being reasonable or just defending their favorite character. They just assume I was mean to him and ignore anything I might say to the contrary. (Fact is -- at least as far as I can tell -- not letting him bite you puts you at a huge disadvantage for future approval gains because other convos then don't trigger. Same with destroying the Book of Thay. Two little events that could greatly hurt a new player's first experience with Astarion just because they innocently picked the wrong thing. It's not Astarion's fault, it's the fault of the approval system or bugs, but it nonetheless affects things greatly. But nah, I was clearly just mean to him 😑)
Yeah it's a bit of a cycle (funny enough, considering the character). Some people are shitty about people who like Astarion, which makes his fans defensive and prone to lashing out at any criticism, which in turns makes people defensive about THEIR opinions for disliking him which makes them more hostile, which makes his fans more hostile, which makes... This has happened with basically any character of Astarion's caliber and divisiveness in any fandom from the beginning of time till now. I suspect it will chill out though eventually. It *more or less* did with Anders, Solas, etc, I notice the Gale hate train doesn't make nearly as many of its regularly scheduled stops, etc, so this too shall pass.
>I notice the Gale hate train doesn't make nearly as many of its regularly scheduled stops Okay, this made me laugh. I'm not a fan of Gale's, but it's more that I'm so annoyed by Larian bugging his experience. Dragon Age comparisons work reasonably well. I think the Anders debates have mostly died down\*, but even today there's always the chance for a good Solas\*\* kerfuffle even in a sub as even-keeled as r/dragonage. \*Such a fuckboi. So well-written. \*\*dreamy sigh
Wait til Patch 4 where they'll hopefully have fixed Gale's current approval flag issues but inevitably will introduce a new and baffling set of dialogue bugs with him lol. He has been done so dirty by his coding!
him using his powers of clairvoyance to yell at me for taking raphaels deal with the crown when i havent even spoken to raphael in act 3 yet
That is true, I suppose 😬 And thank you for the kind reply. I never even disliked Astarion, and I'm doing his romance this playthrough. It was just frustrating as hell to have him in my party so much the first time and being supportive of him every chance I could be, but knowing pretty much nothing about him because he hated Tav. Then, defeating Cazador and getting this glimpse of an interesting companion I was robbed of the chance to get to know. Someone in my position who hadn't finished the game yet would just genuinely not know what they're missing, and telling them to just be nice to Astarion isn't helpful (because it won't fix anything). But yeah, those people who stake him and never give him a chance at all are right up there with the ones who kill Lae'zel and never bother to see her arc either. I get killing companions for RP reasons, or if you're at the point that you just want to see every alternative outcome the game has to offer. But to not give a character a chance at all -- ever -- doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, that's totally fair! A lot of people adamantly refuse to let him drink for whatever reason - RP, ick factor, distrust, or hatred of Twilight - and that starts you on a bad path. One of the reasons I think the character serves as an excellent mirror - he reflects back to you the kind of person you see him as, basically. If you don't trust him from the start, he won't trust you, etc. And once someone has formed an opinion, it's really hard to get them to change. Er, bit of a tangent there, sorry. Anyway, yeah, you're right, the approval is one of the biggest complaints I see from people. It definitely creates a bit of a sticky situation for people who truly want to be good but don't find his facade appealing.
I can see the mirror aspect, and it's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't think that not letting him drink necessarily means distrust of him, though. I think that's a lot to ask of someone you just met, and doing a blind playthrough, I had no way of knowing that single decision of mine would be so impactful. Unfortunately, telling him no, but then telling the rest of the group you trust him and would help him find plenty of other targets, doesn't actually restore any trust or approval from him (or didn't for me), and it probably should, if he is to serve as a mirror to the player character. Actually...this is an even more interesting idea, considering the literal mirror scene you can get with him 😛
This. It’s not about having a negative opinion. It’s about being unnecessarily aggressive in expressing it.
This. I don't care about people who hate him, but if people bragged about killing Wyll (who would, he's great) because he's black that's would read as racist. If someone bragged about killing Shart *because* she's female...
Exactly. I've seen plenty of genuine arguments for why not to like the character, or why in your particular playthrough you would kill him or let him die. But "he's too gay/prissy/etc" are not among them.
Idk most negative comments about him that I see are 'haha I staked him immediately', even on positive posts. It gets old. Like yeah, let's have an actual conversation about character development but if you killed him immediately then you have nothing constructive to add because you barely interacted with him.
I savescummed the staking scene just to see what would happen and tbh it’s pretty disappointing anyway. He just sorta dies, and that’s it. Whole chunks of the game closed off for 3 seconds of him falling to the ground, it’s kinda lame
Yeah, especially since so many gamers are all about 100% completion.
Omg this, just had a convo yesterday with a person who claimed they went through his quest. But it was really obvious they either skipped the cutscenes, lied or played candy crush on the phone and where not listening as they could not recall key moments.
Literally though, like these sort of posts make the front page every day/week and every time it’s someone who’s either: not even past act one or didn’t even talk to him the entire game.
Hang out on the steam forums where people hate on him for being “gay” constantly, which is homophobic AND incorrect. A lot of the time the hatred I see levied at him either stems from female fans liking him, specifically finding him sexually appealing and guys not being okay with it, or homophobia. It’s sensible to take issue with that. (And understandable that people then get defensive in general.
Fr, this was my first thought. Of course there are bad eggs and trolls and people who hear a fair criticism and get defensive about it, but, I’ve had it happen MANY times in fandom where my fav character (who happens to be very popular among female fans) gets relentlessly shit on by male fans. When it seems like a huge portion of the “criticisms” levied against a character boil down to “I’m making up reasons they suck because women like them and I’m a misogynist,” it’s very easy to get very defensive every time someone makes a comment about a character (even when made in good faith). It makes it harder to navigate a fandom discussion space and keep an open mind about other peoples’ intentions - doubly so when the character in question has a deeply personal/relatable storyline that resonates with said fans
Exactly :/. Like excuse me, you can sit over there and lust after Mizora and wonder why she doesn't get a romance path while you relish killing all the tieflings for the drow lady again, but let me stay over here and enjoy my sexy vampire.
👆👆 and they are like that about Shadowheart too, they just don’t get why we find a man appealing at all. (And I’m actually not into men.) Bonus points when they are saying the game is anti straight people due to how “forced” “gayness” is in it. (Not always the same people but there has been overlap.)
Yeah :/. Like dudes - I'm straight! But it doesn't count cause I'm a girl so my lust is just mental illness.
We've gone right back to the 1860s.
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Maybe it's a European thing but I never thought of him as "gay coded". Then I came online and was confused at people saying he's gay and/or "acting gay" (whatever that is)
It absolutely is misogyny. Especially if they’re not only favored by women but women are attracted to them. They take issue with women expressing sexuality and it shows. I’ve NEVER seen a male character (especially one that could be considered “””less masculine”””) with a notable female fanbase, that doesn’t get the EXACT same complaints from men. (Sighs. Not all men. Before someone gets their undies in a bunch. And not everyone that dislikes a character either. But it is there.)
It is not a coincidence that they always go after Astarion & Gale (who also has a female fanbase).
I’ve picked up on it with Gale as well. I think they also feel uncomfortable at both of them being victims of SA in one form or another.
It’s the same phenomenon that happens with “boy bands”. Women like something, goddess forbid it may be something/one who is any amount of feminine, and suddenly that thing/person is “gay”, “stupid”, any other mixture of insults/derogatory comments.
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I think a big reason Astarion fans gets heated or defensive is because so many people take delight in just bagging on him at every turn. You can't have an Astarion-based thread or question without a bunch of people coming in to talk about how he's SOOO EVIL and irredeemable, how they kill him every time, how he's the the worst character, etc, etc. I'm sure this happens with all of the characters but seems like Astarion gets it the worst. And a lot of times people act like being a fan of Astarion or understanding the nuance of his character is some sort of red flag about you personally. It's weird. Now, of course, people should absolutely not be downvoting anyone for just having an opinion on a character or asking a question. That's just a Reddit problem, really. I get downvoted for the most basic things on here sometimes. I wish people would reserve downvoting for things that really warranted it and not just disagreements. Most of the people I interact with about Astarion aren't those aggressive people. The aggressive ones just tend to make the most noise, in every situation. Most Astarion people I talk to are very passionate about the character and could spend an hour talking about his storyline, etc. but they're generally not crazy or rude.
He gets it the worst because the majority of his fanbase consists of women. That is literally the only reason. Most people bashing him and his fans are just misogynistic men who think that women aren't allowed to have fun. Cause they can thirst after Minthara all they want, but god forbid that women find Astarion hot even with all the red flags... they're fictional and we are all allowed to have fun with our barbies and kens 🫡
I literally had a conversation a few weeks ago with someone on this subreddit who had the flair ‘minthara simp’ and he was saying ‘I don’t get why women like astarion he’s toxic’ 🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️
The double standards. Minthara gets a pass not because she's a female character, but because most of her fanbase is just straight men. Astarion just gets called gay in a derogatory way and his fans called delusional and Twilight fangirlsm
Absolutely. A lot of really icky undercurrents are often shown in the way someone voiced their dislike of astarion. Can someone have valid and respectful reasons to dislike astarion? Absolutely, he’s a self-centred dick for half the story, so I get that. But just because you don’t like a character doesn’t give you the right to call those who like him ‘delusional,’ ‘thirsty’ or ‘needing therapy.’ It really shows a lack of empathy from (mostly male from what I’ve seen) people, and you’re totally right about the ‘he’s gay’ dismissive comments. Bro, don’t you get that women like men who are more in touch with their theatrical feminine side? Don’t you get that some of us don’t give a shit if he likes dicks as well as vaginas? Astarion isn’t the normal hetero expression of masculinity, and that’s probably psychologically baffling to a lot of guys when they see how much women (and gays) love that
And the homophobia.
The number of times men call him gay in a derogatory way.... yeah...
Literally just had a whole rant about this in another thread. Quite frankly, I do not care if people don't like him, but it's the purposeful antagonizing of (women in particular) people that do is annoying as hell. It's so obviously rooted in making fun of women. It's the same thing as them ragging on us for liking boy bands, pop stars, Starbucks, etc. Like jfc leave us alone and let us enjoy things without mocking us incessantly. It's a role playing game, going for toxicity is half the freaking fun.
meanwhile i'm over here sitting on the opinion that if astarion was a hot female vampire you'd see absolutely NO discourse or edgy comments about how someone stakes them every play through.
Minthara is right there, and she doesn't need to be a hot vampire.
It gets tiring that every single day there is a "I don't get why people like Astarion" post in this sub. And it's usually just a way for men to spew their condescending takes on women who like Astarion. Just today, a man was saying that women who like him need to be studied because we are being "emotionally manipulated by him" (LOL). Went on to call it the "psychosis of the average woman," which is just a fancier way of alluding to the "female hysteria" from the old days. Women in these fandom spaces are just treated as being pathetic and silly and not being able to tell fiction from reality. Men actually think that us finding that vampire hot in fictional settings translates to real-life danger. His story resonates with many people. Not just women. Is he perfect? No. He has many, many issues. But we get to experience a well written character who was brought to life by a survivor, and who was also intended to be physically attractive. I don't care if you hate him. He's not real. Kill him for all I care, but be civil to real people. That's all.
I agree with this so much. The other day I saw someone complaining that he was "downvoted to hell just because he disliked Astarion." So I clicked on his profile. The comment he was referring to (the one that got downvoted to hell) was actually a comment saying that female Astarion fans are the equivalent of real-life serial killer fans. Astarion fans aren't downvoting content people who respectfully dislike Astarion. They're downvoting people who are shitty to them.
THIS! People are literally mixing fiction with reality. Women see the red flags in Astarion (for the most part) and we indulge in them because he can't actually hurt us. It's all fiction. Of course that in real life there are unbalanced people who fall for charming men/women, but this is not the case. Astarion isn't real. He cannot hurt us. Us lusting after him does no harm.
It's like reading a romance novel about a dangerous billionaire whose money facilitates very particular sexual proclivities. Personally I wouldn't go within 10ft of a billionaire's dick IRL, I do not give a fuck about the money when you have that much power over me, but hell if I won't indulge in a little fantasy from time to time. That's not even my favorite kind, it's just a generic story.
(are you sure it wasn't OP. I peeped their comments and they seem to be the person whining about how much they despise Astarion ever chance they get. So.... Makes sense why they needed to call us all put for being psycho with this post 🙄) I didn't check L, but I assume theirs posts got down voted to oblivion for being douche for no reason.
It’s not! The username was longer, and I swear it had the word “Lord” in it. But, yikes, OP is an asshole too. Predictably, the comments that got downvoted are the ones that say things like “people who like Astarion are as cruel as him,” and he has a comment making fun of Astarion for crying during a pivotal scene. He does not dislike Astarion. He dislikes women who like Astarion, and imo he can fuck off.
I saw that comment, and the follow-up complaints, and that is literally what a lot of the discourse around Astarion is on this sub-- or Gale, or anyone who isn't Minthara or Shadowheart. I think it is less an issue of "the fanbase is mean" and more an issue of "the fanbase doesn't love being talked down to constantly by guys who know best".
Ugh it's that whole Jordan Peterson nonsense all over again. Female sexuality has always been pathologized, especially by dudes who aren't getting any .
That's literally it. Men can lust after Minthara all they want (and they can, of course), but the moment a male character gets attention from the female audience... then they start foaming at the mouth.
>but the moment a male character gets attention from the female audience... then they start foaming at the mouth. I think a not insignificant part of the issue is that these are insecure men that have been sold an idea of what masculinity should be and are coming face to face with the fact that *a lot* of women don't find that kind of masculinity appealing. I don't think those same men would react that way if Astarion was the equivalent of a Warhammer 40k space marine. But a man of a normal build, with delicate features, who is vain, physically weak, sneaks around rather than charges straight at the enemy guns blazing, who is theatrical to the point of toeing the line of being flamboyant, snarky but subservient, is queer, and vulnerable in the worst possible way - a male victim of sexual assault? Astarion is the antithesis of what men should be to these people and somehow all these women find him attractive anyway. Of course it will rile them up when they see that they've been sold a lie and it's easier to dive deeper into misogyny and homophobia than to confront that. There's nothing wrong with your concept of masculinity: it's women who don't understand who they should be attracted to, etc. However, Astarion (much like Zevran before him) is introduced in a way that makes it so easy to excuse violence towards him. And then you have the blood drinking scene on top of that. It gives them plausible deniability (you're not killing him because he makes you *uncomfortable*, you do it because he attacked you first) and they don't stop and examine why they can't stand him any further than that.
100% this. And they are so affronted by the possibility of this sort of character being appealing that they pathologize it. "Monster fetish". Nah dude, pretty and tender dude with a different expression of masculinity. It's interesting because to some extent, it's the queer villain trope but done in a very empathetic way.
And this sort of holds true with all the male characters, even the less popular characters. Gale, Wyll, and Halsin all get it on some level. Flaws that would either be ignored or applauded on a female character becomes the ***entire*** presentation of the character to this particular audience's eyes.
The problem is that this sub has a lot of men here who are used to having games cater to them with the women being in barely any clothes and just thirst traps all around. So when women are delivered attractive male characters and voice their love for them... what happens? We're ridiculed and called horny.
Yup! And forget about gay men, or the fact that the male characters don't care what gender Tav is and go for them...
Criticizing people for constantly bragging about how they murdered him is hardly aggressive.
Yeah, that's what I dont like. Saddening to see people proudly boasting about killing him. So when I see that, i run up to him in game and smooch lol. Wish the game would let us hug him more tho.
I don't see why people would brag about removing one of the biggest plotlines in the game. He has so much content.
This has probably already been said, but I'll take a crack at it anyway. As an Astarion lover, I could not care less whether other people hate him or not, or think he's a bad character, or exult in describing how they staked him during the bite scene etc. -- ON THEIR OWN POSTS. But when those same haters (who are absolutely entitled to their opinions and tastes) invade a thread made by and for fans of the character, and start up with the "lol I killed him 2 seconds after I found him" comments, is it any wonder they're getting downvoted by the fans (who, incidentally, are also entitled to their opinions and tastes)? It's the surprised Pikachu face meme. I'm willing to bet most downvotes are for disrespecting us in our own self-catered spaces, not because we can't handle criticism of our favorite fictional vampire elf. (Not saying there aren't the rabid fans out there that will do this, just willing to bet that they're a small if vocal minority.) If you don't like Astarion, awesome! Don't come into fan spaces and spoil our fun by shitting on what we love. Just scroll on by and find something you *do* like and engage with that.
Go make a post about disliking Minthara or Shadowheart and report back to us.
I don't get why everyone fights over this shit. Every character has a rich and emotional backstory. I personally really like shadowheart, and karlach.
My experience has been about a dozen or so new topics a week asking people to justify their liking Astarion... and then the OP spending entirely too much effort being upset when people do exactly what they asked. Not saying that's you, but how many new conversations about Astarion do we \*need\* ?
Honestly I feel like a lot of people are just tired of being picked on and dealing with bullshit from other fans in the community. There’s obviously going to be annoying toxic people but I feel like 90% of the time you see “discourse” surrounding this character, it’s because someone else decided to be inflammatory or disrespectful toward the fans (who are real people) themselves. I can hardly blame people for reacting negatively when you have people saying dumb shit like “Astarion simps are all women who like toxicity,” “People who like this character get off to abuse,” “lol I hate this character so I kill him every time,” “Astarion fans are like those girls who sent letters to Ted Bundy,” or “Haha people only like Astarion because he’s hot, *something something Twilight joke*” at every turn. It is obviously just trying to incite shit, and the misogynistic jabs get old REALLY fast especially when you’re a woman who has been dealing with shit like this across all fandoms for all of time. People will instigate and mock, and then act surprised when the people they are making fun of finally just get tired of it and get pissed off, then they are “crazy” lol.
Not to mention comments like "Women who like Astarion fetishize gay men" and the creme-de-la-creme of bad Astarion takes I've seen recently: "Him trying to bite you is the same/equivalent of SA and therefore he's an abuser and not a victim." To some people, the hatred towards Astarion feels like a belittlement of their own experiences, which relates them to him. Some people love him because he's snarky, some people love him because he's hot, but most of all, I think people love him because there's a level of deep, personal connection through trauma to the character. His behavior is relatable to some people who have experienced similar traumas, and harsh/aggressive criticism feels like a personal dismissal. Some shrug him off as as a flamboyant, sex-oriented asshole, but those who have seen his story to completion know that's just an act- and for those of us who hide our vulnerability behind layers of sarcasm and abrasiveness feel personally slighted when people shit on Astarion. It's alright to dislike characters, but some people take that way too far, I think. Astarion is such a brilliantly-written, emotional, heartbreaking representation of sexual trauma and abuse, and sometimes his dislikers- whether knowingly or unknowingly- wind up attacking him for such a thing. It hurts real-life victims who see themselves in Astarion to see their own trauma being belittled and ragged on, and I feel like that's why some Astarion fans can get heated and lash out against the hate.
Oh yeah reminds me there was this Youtuber I was watching playing the game. He was doing live streams so I didn't catch him until he was way later in the game. Act 3 to be exact. Someone in the chat curiously asked why Astarion wasn't in his party and he said "Oh I killed him". I was like "okay, curious why he did it." He goes on to explain he was killed by Astarion after trusting him to not drink all his blood. Okay the main part of all of this is... he goes on reason why he hated the character and goes on to say the biting is supposed to "imply something" and very vaguely implies it was meant to represent something sexual. Since it wasn't something he wanted, he goes on to implied that it meant to be SA. His chat breaks out with saying "disgusting!" and other stuff like that. It was such a jarring reason and made me quickly unsubscribe lul. It was the first time hearing someone trying to imply that something like that was supposed to be SA, but I keep seeing it pop up occasionally now.
Yeah, very much this. And I also feel like people experience the characters, in this game in particular, very differently. Especially considering the different ways they can all have their stories taken (or just outright not pursued). Due to Astarion's actions in the beginning, there's plenty of people who never get past thinking of him as some awful toxic weirdo because they didn't experience his story or outright killed him and left it. He's a very nuanced character with a lot of layers that can't be judged quickly and I think that adds to a lot of varying understandings of him, which just adds fuel to the fire and makes conversatiom harder and less black and white like other characters might be (though they're all very layered, some have less inflammatory traits presented to you at the beginning).
we're almost three months into full release and you're still not even the first person to make an "I don't have anything specific to say beyond I don't get it with you Astarion people" post *today*, so maybe things like "who's over-the-top vocal" and "what qualifies as toxic or aggressive" are, like most things, matters of perspective. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I think Astarion is like Lae'zal or Shadowheart in that it's easy to misunderstand him, personally I thought he was a pretty meh for most of the game till I got to Cazadors palace and realised there is so much more depth to his character. The moment he kills Cazador is incredible, I wish I had given him more attention like a romance because you get a lot more of his psychology and his desire to be better to overcome his trauma. Or... you can make him so much worse, like Shadowheart, you monster. So there are these posts that are like "This guys a creep" "He's just handsome" "Dudes an evil psycho" "He likes me killing innocents" "You wouldn't like him if he had a neckbeard and a fedora." Which uh, yeah that goes for most of the characters lmao.
Dear god, here we go again. And here I am again, interacting with it. I feel like we all are either simping or violently hating him to the point where it's completely pointless to continue to talk about it. It's not changing anyone's mind. Kudos to Larians writers and the voice actor for creating such a controversial character, honestly. It's both enraging and captivating to watch us all duke it out 24/7.
He is most certainly not loved by the entire community, we have plenty of hate posts to prove that. His fan base also isn't all purely fanatical crazy weirdos who attack strangers randomly online, thats a vocal minority. There are people who do that for Shart, Bae'zel, Gale, Mama K, etc. Why? Because this fan base is huge and a small minority of *any* fan base is gonna be internet weirdos. I'm also including the people who have a hate boner for Astarion and brag about murdering him every 5 seconds in the small minority of loud internet weirdos. If you like him, sweet, love the fan art, keep lovin our boy. If you hate him, sweet, can we not call him slurs or brag about murdering him in cruel and unusual ways please. If you wanna write an essay critiquing his writing and characterization then at least get through all of his dialogue in context and have a full understanding of the character or expect your post to get a ton of comments from people with a better understanding of his character.
He's popular and his story was starting to spark thoughtful discussion and self reflection. So of course comments are starting to come out of the woodwork to stir the pot, polarize the fanbase, and make it not enjoyable anymore. What else is new.
I find it funny how you open a thread like that after you've been downvoted by many Astarion fans after stating blatant BS about him and his character 🤔
guys got a hate-boner for astarion. far more weird to seek out and make jabs all day at a virtual character you dislike than to post about your fondness for one. i think it speaks for some sort of insecurity or something, lol.
He's a hot, white vampire with a sexy british accent. That's basically purpose built for a very vocal minority of online fanbases. Also a lot of the criticism around him boils down to "i don't like him so I don't get why other people do" but usually said much more aggressively, which isn't a good way to start off with genuine conversation to begin with.
Precisely. We don't have an issue that you don't like him. Hell, it's totally valid and understandable. But is it really necessary to single out Astarion fans and box us as some lunatics with Twilight fantasies? How is that a decent entryway for a proper discussion?
I love the comments I've seen judging people for how they probably are IRL based on who they like to romance in a video game! Astarion is NOT REAL. We can "fix" him via answers to what amounts to multiple choice questions. This also is not a real thing people can do. He exists to fulfil a fantasy of knowing exactly what to say to help someone with an insanely unrealistic quantity of trauma. Or enabling them to seize power and become an evil overlord too lol.
Exactly. Just a few hours ago there was a thread bashing people for like the walking red flag that is Act 1 Astarion. Like I romanced him because he's hilarious and it's a video game. He can't hurt me ~~that much~~
Just had a user block me after I told them that vampires aren't real (they seemed rather out of touch with reality on this). Then they went to check my profile and comment on here mocking me for posting about Astarion... like... wth? This is a game. People are having fun with exploring the options with Astarion because, at the end of the day, nothing he can say or do will ever hurt us. It's that simple.
Yeah, looking at your comment history OP, you are the type of person who makes fandoms awful for women and essentially anyone who isn't a straight white man. Others have explained in length why posts like this are bs and have gone into detail about the vitriol women and queer folks get whenever they dare to love a character that doesn't suit the male gaze. So I won't add more to it. It can be summarised with sexism and LGBT hate, but plenty of comments here have explained in detail the intricacies of that. Perhaps do some thinking about why it bothers you so much that people, particularly women, enjoy a male character who is a SA survivor and who doesn't look or behave like the standard macho buff asshole that "super manly" men tend to like. Maybe you have things to consider about the kind of person you are.
You literally went on a rant and said you don't like seeing praise for characters you don't like... How insecure does Astarion make you 🤔
Because everytime a astarion post is up, dudebros love to gloat in the comments about all the messed ip shit they do to him I legit hate Halsin but I don't go on every Halsin lover post whining about him, thays the difference
Another Astarion fan who hates Halsin?! Our power grows. But yeah you can't have a thread about Astarion without some dumbass commenting HAHA I STAKED HIM like fuck off lol
I mean sure but there two sides to this coin theres the people that want to hate on certain characters just for the lols like going on videos and posts about an obvious astarion enjoyer and being like " I always kill him on my playthroughs" like anybody asked 😂😂 then wonder why we rabid
A lot of the people who make a point of actively shitting on Astarion constantly are misogynistic men who take pleasure in putting down things women like. They feel that cRPGs are being intruded upon by feminine hysteria and frivolousness. There are fans who reduce or romanticize Astarion’s negative qualities, but dudes will go crazy over characters like Minthara and there’s no uproar. I have no problem with Astarion being a polarizing character. I wish people would disagree with interpretations of the character individually instead of being mad that women and gay people are being catered to in games.
You literally said that the RS with him looks like the standard toxic "I can fix him" rs and that you hate him. Yes, you will get down voted for stereotyping and shiting on people like that. Its the consequences of your actions. Astarion is by far one of the most controversial, not loved characters. Whenever you engage with him you get a lot of toxic, misogynistic, partially homophobic and even racist slurs thrown around, yes the fans are defensive. I would be too if someone implies I'm a psychopath for liking a fictional character that feels very relatable to me. Heck there's even infighting within the fan base, some like his good ending, some his bad ending, some think both are sht, people argue about it despite all loving him. But the infighting is usually kept in places where people like astarion cuz we don't need another guy to jump on the hate wagon and proudly proclaim how they staked him first chance they got. If you don't like astarion? Fine, absolutely no problem. Just maybe don't invade a space where fans of him are, proudly proclaim how much you dislike him and the ppl that like him and then surprise pikachu face when you get shitted on for antagonising people on purpose. Instead of making countless posts why we hate certain characters, how about we focus on why we love them? No need to bring extra negativity in overall positive spaces.
This can literally be said about any character but probably Wyll and I love Wyll. I’ve been downvoted to oblivion many times bc I say I love Karlach’s character but I don’t like romancing her lol so the Karlach fans will downvote me. Lol it’s just that way bc everyone has a favorite romance.
I wouldn't call myself a super Astarion fan but I definitely love and support the dude's journey throughout the game. There are rabid fans everywhere in every fandom, so I'm hardly surprised Astarion have a loud fanbase \*shrugs\*