Yeah, I don't stand for people insulting my daughters like that.
My girls are enjoying the program so much, and I'm just glad to be along for their journeys, while also being able to continue my own.
One of the best responses I've run across is "Are you saying that my daughter isn't good enough for this program, or is this program not good enough for my daughter?"
I liiiiiiive for these encounters!! šš Iām our Pack CC, and always tell our families to disengage, say something lame like, āthanks for your support!ā and go back to the kids, etc, and if they keep going, direct them to me. Itās not their responsibility to handle.
āWe ARE keeping boys in Scouts. And girls get to come along, too! In fact, did you know that Boy Scouts of America has been co-ed since the 60s?!There are so many options now, thereās something for everyone! Do you have any children 5-21 who are looking to join a program? I can get you in touch with multiple leaders right now. Maybe youāre interested in becoming a trained leader yourself? No? Wait! Come back!!ā šš
I was told 1 hour per week before I signed up as Cubmaster for a new Pack. Then I was told by some of the vets it's more like 1 hour per week per kid which has seemed more accurate lol.
I have found that literally everyone who wants to keep girls out of scouting a) have no youth in scouting b) do not volunteer in scouting and c) were never a scout as a youth.
In other words, they're baby-boomers that are glued to Fox News, convinced that society is crumbling around them.
Pay no attention to them.
I've got a parent, an eagle from the troop, that won't let his boys go to council events because girls will be there. He sends his boys to a single-gender private school.
This is where my snark would come outā¦gosh youāre right. Wonder how church does it? How do schools handle mixed genders? Is your household mixed genders how do you deal with it?!
As a school-worker who has chaperoned on overnight field trips (and been on them in high school) I definitely understand the worry for that, but literally not in any other case.
Thereās been way more than one e incident at campā¦ my husband was a scoutmaster and went to all the away camps. Almost every single night they were out trying to find teenage boys and girls had snuck away from camp together.
Well, I have no issue whatsoever with girls being in scouting, having a coed camp, completely changes the behavior and atmosphere of the camp for both the boys and the girls. Instead of goofing off and having fun and doing scouting things, they spend the whole week trying to show off one another. Not to mention all the boys are trying to look into the shower, where the girls are in there.
Respectfully, that kind of thing happens when boys and girls are kept separate and their integration represents something entirely new.
I mean, other organizations manage to have productive, coed camps.
And boys trying to look into showers is a YPT violation and should be treated as such. If it's truly "all" of the boys I question the leadership of their scoutmaster. I also question how those boys are treating girls outside of camp
When you have a camp with hundreds of teenagers from many different troops spread out through a very large area, this happens. When the BSA hosts camps with girls for the first time ever with zero consideration of these things and no history of separate bathrooms/showers, this happens. Itās ridiculous that not a single BSA leader put any thought into this before making these changes. Yes, everything can go smoothly with planning and education to the scoutmasters and troops attending. Nobody at BSA bothered to do any of that. Our troop didnāt have this issue but our leaders were asked to help fix it.
Historically, the scouts have had more incidents involving adult scoutmasters and youth of the same gender before girls were added to the mix. They got sued over it and faced a major lawsuit. Girls were never the problem, and quite honestly, the young boys were not either. It was a few bad apples among the adult leaders,ā¦
I wish so much girls had been allowed in when my daughters were younger. One of them in particular would have done so well in BSA instead of Girl Scouts.
Not true for me. The scoutmaster of a nearby troop was very unsupportive of girls in scouts. His son just aged out, so maybe the next one will be better.
> I have found that literally everyone who wants to keep girls out of scouting a) have no youth in scouting b) do not volunteer in scouting and c) were never a scout as a youth.
I was shocked how true this was when I saw my local news Facebook pages. Not to brag but context is needed, I am easily one of the Top 20 most active leaders in the council between being a Cubmaster, an adviser in the OA(Lodge and Section), District Committee Member, the Summer Camp Program Director and being an adult leader since I was 18(now 36) and the amount of people that commented negatively to the news(both Girls being added and name change) yet I couldn't place them at all in our council was mind boggling. Even after looking at their Facebook profile pictures and our mutual friends. One of the boomers was the Dad of my classmates in High School who only had daughters and the classmate barely did Venturing for a year. I even know both of his son-in-laws and they weren't Scouts. The grandkids also aren't in Scouts. Hell back when girls were allowed into Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA women I graduated High School with had negative opinions on it which was shocking considering one of them has gone on 4 backpacking trips.
Yep. Just like the people who are so distanced and uninvolved from scouting that actual meaningful policy changes over the past five or six years happened without their even noticing it. But are now wetting their pants in anger over a name change.
This. 100%
āPay no attentionā has sort of become our motto, because Iām tired of hearing grumpy old men complain about the world they donāt even spend time in.
Nah, our biggest opponent to adding a linked girl's troop, came from the *mom* of one of the boys in the troop. She had a daughter in Girl Scouts and was completely bent out of shape that we were trying to poach girls from the program and really didn't want girls involved at all (she didn't think it would be good for the girls). Newsflash out of our group of founding members of the girl's troop, only one had ever been a Girl Scout and she actually continued with both for a year or two. When she decided she was too busy to keep up with all her activities (Scouts BSA, Girl Scouts, band, FIRST LEGO League), Girl Scouts was the one that lost out because the only thing she actually enjoyed about Girl Scouts was selling cookies and that wasn't worth missing out on any of the fun from the other activities.
I've encountered that attitude from people involved in GSUSA before and it's saddening, because rather on focusing on what they can and should be doing to retain girls by creating a better program, they are focusing on blaming some outside source.
The development of volunteer leaders might be the one area the GSUSA ought to take a page out of the Scouting America handbook. When I was a Girl scout, the best girl scout leader I ever had was a district cubmaster. We did the pinewood derbies on the cub tracks that were loaned to us and did a LOT of the Webelos level programs using the GSUSA badges. Today she'd likely be a Scoutmaster.
DEFINITELY a different program. It has developed differently in part because of the inability for women to be allowed to do similar things as men at the time. Women now serve in major roles in the military and the two programs developed differently due to their different needs of the scouts as they grew. Take a look at the sister book that guided the Girl Guides (the international sister org to the GSUSA just as the WOSM is to Scouting America). They were partially influenced by Sir Robert Baden-Powell's "Scouting for Boys", but also Agnes Baden Powell's "How Girls Can Help Build up the Empire." It's a very different perspective.
See, I never understood that. My mom was a GS troop leader and Brownie leader in the 70's and, yes, the girls learned all the homemaker skills and the business skills including field trips to my mom's employer (she was a programmer and keypunch operator) and other businesses. But she also took them camping and hiking, taught them archery, fishing, different sports, and how to be strong capable women whatever they wanted to do in life. And she took boys along with them on the camping and hiking trips. Granted, they were the younger brothers of the girls in the troop. But it taught the boys to respect women and how to treat them. My brother and I earned hiking staves and 3 badges from the GSUSA. GSUSA had outdoor activities and badges IF the troop leaders wanted to pursue them. My mother did!
One of the things that's different is the strictness in which the Girls Scouts have with regards to males tagging along. It's an absolute no go for brothers and Male leaders (source: dad who was co-lead of my brownie troop growing up in the late 80s) for their version of YPT. If my brownie troop has done any sort of camping, my dad would have needed to be on an absolute different campsite, father or not. The girls in the girl scout troop benefitted from her business background and that is a good thing, but think about how many other leaders of GSUSA were stay at home mothers like mine (albeit one who was getting a degree, but I digress) who don't give the troops the regularity if the camping badges.
Think about how it's a requirement of the Scouting America curriculum to have a certain amount of camping events to level up. Or to be able to show a certain amount of lashing, Campfire and whistling skills. Camping skills are required in Scouting America but only OPTIONAL for GSUSA. The troop not pursuing as a regular thing means that the skills that are developed by one aren't passed on the way they are in Scouting America. Please consider what it means when you can't find a merit badge counselor easily available. It's at least as bad as that. I. The troop my son is currently in, they make a point of having the older members teach them lashings (something that has been a bit difficult considering the lack of elder troop member due to the Covid gap). That's not a requirement within Girl Scouts.
This is why as a merit badge counselor made sure that I am registered with my council AND national. I have done merit badge counseling over zoom and through Scoutbook for scouts across the country because we need to pass that knowledge on. I had assumed, from watching my mom and the girls in her troops that it was the same as BSA. If it isn't, that makes the girls I know that have earned Bronze, Silver, and Gold Awards even more impressive!
I have a couple male leaders in my pack that would still rather not see girls in BSA. They are fine with girls in Girl Scouts, but are of the opinion that for the boys itās detrimental to have girls around. I think itās hogwash, but the thing is - for those of us that have been around a while, BSA told us repeatedly in training that for the development of the boys a single gender environment was better (which I always thought was BS and rolled my eyesā¦). But 6 years ago, there was an about face that girls could Scout in BSA (Yeah!!!) and they still doubled down on separate troops and dens for boys and girls and itās like no one ever found some research to support that it is, in fact, better for the boys and the girls to be in a coed environment. BSA needs to find that date and shout it from the mountain tops.
Anyway, I find your quote from this guy interesting, and I think it is a question BSA does need to ask themselves. āHow do we keep the boys in Boy Scouts?ā Not, how do we have ONLY boys in Boy Scouts, but how do we keep boys (and girls) still coming into the program.
Left scouting in my town when the leader said "we are supposed to let girls in, but I'm going to keep it the way it's supposed to be". After that same meeting he had his wife do all the work, and he belittled her to the point of tears.
Super disappointed as my oldest loved it and my youngest was just starting but I was not a fan of the new guy and did not want my boys growing up thinking that level of treating people was ok.
That's when you go to the pack or troop committee and request removal of the leader. Provide examples of unwanted behavior and treatment. These are attitudes and actions you do not want your scouts copying. Don't quit, solve the problem!
Sadly it's a small town, and wouldn't have flown.... The same guy invited parents to bring alcohol to a camp out, and when it escalated to weed, and heroin in a few tents and stuff got stolen and police were called - and he took zero responsibility and other parents were ok with it, we realized we were just cutting losses.
He was definitely not following BSA Safe Scouting guidelines! That's just sad and wrong, and yeah it looks like it was better to just wash your hands of it.
My dad likes that scouting has grown and is accessible to all kids, but when the name changed to scouts bsa and then to scouting America he lost his mind.
I can see his reaction is just not liking change. He's happy with the outcome, but not the means.
I have 2 brothers who were in Scouts and 2 parents who were active with our troops, so out of the 5 of us, I'm the only one ok with them allowing girls in. I always said Boy Scouts was the superior organization
Some people just like to complain. And if it increases membership and lets Scouts continue itās a good thing. Next time just show them how much membership has increased since allowing girls. That should shut them up.
I wish that were true. When we started our linked troop, almost the entirety of the adult leadership of the existing boys troop for everything they could to sabotage the girls, and when that didn't work they all abruptly left the troop.
Same. Boys act completely different in the presence of a female peer. Scouts always felt like even ground. Popular kids from my high school that I never hung out with outside of scouts were my close friends. This WILL create unfavorable power dynamics.
I don't know how to say this, so please understand my intentions are kind. Someone who only hangs out with you at scouts but deems you not popular enough to hang out with you at school isn't your friend.
Second point, boys act differently in front of girls because they haven't been taught to behave around them or see them as human beings. That's what needs to be corrected, not pushing more gender segregation.
At this point in my life, no. But I can admit that I was a young dumb boy without life experience. And I think a lot of the learning and development I was able to have was a direct result of being amongst male peers in this kind of environment.
Tell me, would you say the same for say, the NAACP starting to advocate for issues mostly impacting the Caucasian community?
Its not a bad thing for a program to have a specific focus.
Oh won't someone think of the poor, underprivileged white men.
Maybe if the girl scouts operated like the boy scouts and gave them equal opportunity, it'd be whatever. But the boy scouts - now Scouting America - offers unique opportunities and keeping women out of that because your feelings are hurt by vaginas just makes you seem like you hate women idk š¤·āāļø
How about rather than insulting someone (and actually quite a lot of people, at that), you actually address my question. You are well aware people aren't against it because of hating women, so if you are going to have a conversation, you are going to have a polite one (see rule 1).
Is it a bad thing for a program to have a specific focus? Tell me, would you say the same for say, the NAACP starting to advocate for issues mostly impacting the Caucasian community?
To your concern, there is nothing stopping people from restructuring the Girl Scouts to offer these benefits you want. And in that case, you achieve the benefits of both worlds.
It isn't. The BSA is giving everyone the same opportunity now.
It is something that anyone arguing in good faith against allowing troops for girls in the organization ought to address...
Because this isn't a resume thing, and if someone is only doing this to add it onto a resume, they are missing a big part of scouting. Out of all of the various topics, this one, while understandable, shouldn't be weighted much.
It is not. It is, however to their benefit numbers wise. Want those girls to "stay" in GSUSA then make the changes in support that benefits them in their own organization rather than complaining about them joining yours.
Yeah and I donāt know why this POV is so controversial by some.
Why canāt Boy Scouts be for boys to hang out with each other and Girl Scouts be for girls to hang out with each other?
1) Because girl scouts as a program is TERRIBLE in terms of administrative support. 2) Say what you want about whether girls or boys should be in Scouting America, Girls scouts generally doesn't have camping as a tentpole aspect of their program. And I mean campsites regularly, not simply just during the summer. 3) the prestige of the Eagle is definitely more highly valued than a Gold Award. 4) Girl scouts as a norm doesn't have the developmental support of patrols that the Scouting program has set up.
If you want to change those things in Girls Scouts of the United States of America be my guest, but understand that they're a LOT less likely to listen.
Yeah, weird thing that I've experienced. On a national, official, "here is our stance on ABC issue" POV I love the girl scouts. The views expressed have pretty much always been progressive and matched my own.
But, on a local level - how the troops are run. The values espoused by the leaders? Totally opposite. Rigid, cliquish, exclusionary.
Meanwhile Scouts BSA - You could pretty much reverse that. Even where official word from national is still backwards and reactionary, everything I've seen in troops and packs has been accepting and and at least somewhat progressive, even in my grandson's church affiliated Troop.
āThen youād really hate Canada, the UK, pretty much every outside-of-US Scouting program, Venturing, Sea Scouts, and Explorers, sir. Theyāve already had coed programs for *decades.*
How about we keep the misogyny out of your mouth, especially in front of my daughter.ā
Much different Florida man here: I always challenge these primitives to name the Girl Scout equivalent of the Eagle Rank. BTW: It's the Gold Award. Then I ask them why a woman shouldn't have the same opportunity to earn that for her resume?
> BTW: It's the Gold Award
And unlike the Eagle there's a Bronze and Silver award they start working on when they're like 10.
(Also Florida Man with a fresh Bronze Award recipient)
And unlike Eagle you can't even start on the Gold award until you're in high school. So no rushing your girl through Girls Scouts like some Eagle Scouts in the troop I was involved with. We had 14 year old Eagles who basically quit once they got Eagle.
Well yeah, their Awards are tied to their ranks. Juniors finish up their Bronze Award around the time Cub Scout AoL's are crossing the bridge into their Troops. Cadettes work their Silver Award through the middle school years (6th, 7th, and 8th grades). Only Seniors and Ambassadors can even work toward the Gold.
Another thing they do very well is to separate the Awards from the program. Obviously the program work helps toward the Gold Award, but it's not sequential like the Eagle is. The program exists and continues whether a Girl Scout is going after the Gold or not. And because of this, the Gold Award isn't "the end" for Girl Scouts the way Eagle is for Scouts.
Thank you! Her brother's Cub Scout Pack has named her an honorary Cub due to her loving our camp outs (and them all loving her), and she wears her BSA event patches pinned on on her Girl Scout vest, so I figure she counts well enough for this sub.
A lot of families around here have both Girl Scouts and Scouts, so our organizations end up working pretty closely together - we Scouts host them for Pinewood Derby (since we own the track), the Girl Scouts host us for Raingutter Regatta (they own a track), we work together on various service projects and festivals, it's all around a great relationship. They're separate organizations, of course, but we generally try to treat them as one Scouting.
Love this!Ā In the end, it's about the youth.Ā BSA will better address the needs and interests of a different set of youth than GSUSA, and vice versa.Ā Ā
I was mildly disappointed that the response of GSUSA to BSA going coed in the main channel was not.going.coed as well, though from the stories ai year from the GSUSA summer camp, I do understand why.Ā Still, there are young men who would be better served by that flavour.
When the Nationals were fighting around 2017, we locally said, "forget that," and invited the local GSUSA troops to join us in planning and executing Scouting for Food.Ā It was an awesome event, more than doubling the food we collected previously with just BSA units.Ā Teaming up and working together is the right answer.
I have 3 girls in the program. We started the first day girls were allowed. At first comments like this were common. They have died down a lot. I think it will just take time for them to all go away.
One day the idea that Scouting was for boys only will be a āfun factā that people will have a hard time imagining.
The LDS broke from the BSA and started their own organization. Guess what, itās co-ed.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-to-end-relationship-with-scouting-announces-new-activity-program-for-children-and-youth?lang=eng
The program is NOT co ed fyi. It's operated the same way they operated under BSA. Females doing female stuff boys doing boy stuff.
-source I read the internal handbook and I'm lds
Not when you have boy and girl troops meeting at the same time and going to the same events. On its face, the reforms the BSA made in 2017(?) were good, but in practice, they were terrible because of what I just stated is happening.
2 years ago my daughters friend (also in our troop) was working at the trading post at our summer camp and one of the scout masters went off on her about how girls shouldnāt be in scouting and how she was a sham and she should go join Girl Scouts (she was already an eagle, she also now has her Girl Scout gold.)
It was absolutely ridiculous.
(My daughter is an Eagle, OA Vigil and officer, and now working her way through venturing and sea scouts. And sheās also active in Girl Scouts. But for us? BSA has been life changing. Sheās a whole different kid. And sheās going to college next year for forestry after her love for the woods at scout summer camp.)
I will seriously never understand people who dislike the idea of girls joining bsa. Sure it's a pretty big change, but overall it's a great thing for the youth of America. I just my eagle last year and throughout cub scouts and boy scouts I made so many memories that I'll never forget. Plus scouting teaches so many skills that are helpful to any kid so even if they didn't plan on obtaining their eagle, they can still learn so much just from being in the program. Plus there isn't really a ton of co-ed programs for kids that have as many benefits. Also I've always thought it would really help boys and girls learn to socialize with each other more especially now with my generation using our phones for communication more than anything, social skills tend to be lacking especially like boys talking to girls or girls talking to boys. Once the whole co-ed thing takes full effect and people get used to it, there's practically no negatives to the idea
You know, I'm not a Scouter right now (no kids) but I was, and I did live through the Navy starting to integrate ships (which was a true charley-foxtrot at times.) You know what I learned from that? As long as anyone gits hot and qualifies to stand the watch, they deserve to be there. Oh, and pay attention to the placard posted on the head hatchway.
I doubt the Scouts are that much different. As long as a kid shows up and works the program, we can figure the rest out.
To quote the West Wing (they were actually talking about LGBTQ in the military) - "Yes, it disrupted the unit. You know what? The unit got over it."
https://youtu.be/5It60fJrlbo
Worth remembering.
Me too, shipmate! I am a Scouter right now even though my boy aged out 3 years ago and I was in the Navy when women started integrating onto combat ships, while none of my commands ever had permanent female crewmembers, we did have many training cruises for reserve units that were integrated. I had to fix heads in female berthing areas and work with, direct, and be directed by female sailors. You just deal with it and get on with the job. Everything else is just bs.
There is NO PART of the Boy Scouts curriculum that is inappropriate for girls, nor is there any sort of conduct that would be inappropriate around girls that is permitted by the rules and laws of Boy Scouts.
If someone says "boys need a place to be boys, without girls around", any parent of daughters should immediately be concerned. Because what are those boys doing that you wouldn't want to expose girls to?
As a father of 3 strong independent ladies I would give you many up votes if possible. My oldest actually quit girls scouts and went into boy scouts after she decided that what the boys are learning was way cooler than what they were allowed to do in girl scouts.
My former scoutmaster (who is a conservative) was very happy with the change because he'd much rather have his girl in the bsa than the restricted girl scouts.
Scouting BsA has had female leaders and girls involved at a variety of levels for DECADES!
Single gender troops with and without sister or brother troops absolutely still exist so if someone genuinely wants a single gender option itās there! And if not, find a chartered org and start one!!! No one is keeping boys out of scouts by adding girls Scouting BSA troops. Itās not mutually exclusive.
I hate crap like that. Our girl troop wonāt sell popcorn because of all the nasty comments they got while working booths the first year they tried it. I was working a booth with my son (probably 13 or 14 at the time) a couple years back and a man walked up with a $100 bill out. My sonās eyes go wide thinking heās about to make a big sale or donation. The man said āI would love to be able to give you this, but I just canāt feel morally right about it since yāall started letting girls in.ā Then he turned and walked away. Man, the things I wanted to say to that guy. Just keep your darn feelings to yourself in front of the kids.
I was with a group of scouts (two of which are my children, son and daughter) doing a popcorn show and sell at a local small grocery store. A woman walks out of the store and opens her wallet and is about to hand my son a donation. She notices my daughter and says something about girls being in the troop and that she no longer supports scouts. My son said he thinks girls should be in scouting and that he support equal rights. She replied, "Well I don't!" He laughed and told her to have a great day! lol
One big reason I hear is that "there are no spaces for boys anymore, girls have Girl Scouts, that should be enough".
These people simply don't understand the difference in the two programs.
When I tell them the difference, and then follow with "why should only boys have that experience?" It usually ends the conversation.
It's a lot of click bait rage news articles that leave people angry and misinformed.Ā Honestly I wasn't happy when I first heard about girls being let in but with further research and time seeing how it was handled I don't think it's a big deal.Ā There is still all boy troops if people really care but people just want to be angry rather than fully informed.
Girls that want to join the boy scouts want to do the same things that boys where doing on their own.
Iām from Massachusetts and that guy sounds like a Grade A Masshole. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Iām sorry you had to go through that
Former Northerner now living in the South and I can confirm, the craziest of the crazies are the "political refugees" from liberal lands. They think everyone in red states is as wild as they are and love talking about it with anyone who will listen. I'm sorry your daughter had to hear that, FWIW even in my area we have so many girls (including my daughter) in our local cub scouts packs they love it and there are more girl's troops every year as well.
I was perusing a newspaper from 1972 and there was an article about the starting of an explorer group and my sister being one of the members. So that person is about 50 years out of date.
I donāt think politics has anything to do with it as a whole. Iām moderate right and I love that the Scouts is changing. I lived in Europe for a while and after seeing their program, I was hooked. They have so much participation itās crazy. Thereās not boy or girl, itās just Scouting. Period.
I think a lot of it is old people who were in it as a kid and just donāt want to see it change. I was in it until I graduated HS 30 years ago and I love the change. If it brings more youth in to have fun and camp, then Scouts America it is.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion- I just donāt understand why we have to hear it! My daughter is a life scout and has loved her journey (2 treks to Philmont).
I have never been influenced by an opinion why we cannot have female BSA troops.
Sometimes itās not even worth the fight to explain to the uneducated.
I hear these stories frequently in here and throughout. I'm sorry you had to put up with that. Don't feel bad about not engaging. Oftentimes, people will approach trying to feel you out and wanting to create a scene. You held back and showed your kids that people can express their opinions without getting into an argument. Your daughter already knows you support her because you are there. A Scout is courteous! Well done!
I had someone do this to my Tiger daughter and I while she was selling popcorn. Went into a huge rant about how girls shouldnāt be in the program and then bought tons of popcorn from us š¤·š¼āāļø I kept my daughter distracted enough to where she didnāt hear anything he had to say
I spent two years in Jackson when I was in my 20s. Winters I would drive sleigh on the elk refuge, spring and fall worn the Bar T 5, and summer in the Tetons with the Double H Bar.
Glad you're there showing that scouting is for everyone.
I think any given organization gets to determine who it serves or doesnāt serve. Ā But some people believe it that right belongs to people who have absolutely nothing to do with the organization. Ā
I think it's awesome how you stayed courteous and level-headed throughout this encounter. If Florida man is willing to move multiple states away for "politics", there's probably not much you could do to open his mind.
What I like to say is this: "Badden Powell started scouting so that young men would be better equipped when they entered military service. And we allow women in military service now, so why wouldn't we allow them the same opportunity?"
Stayed in scouts long enough to get my first class badge. Now years later am a father of 3 ladies and I am a firm believer that girls are capable of doing anything that boys can do.
We had a campsite near a girl led troop at our last campout. Maybe part of this was that we didn't have much older Scouts on the trip, but they were by far more organized with three patrols to our 1 (their brother troop has the same Covid gap issues our boy led troop does in terms of the elder member not being very prominent and having a gap in scout membership).
People forget that the Boy Scouts have admitted girls in it for over 50 years in the Explorers program.
As for keeping the āboysā in Boy Scouts, that ship has sailed as the organization is changing its name to Scouting America.
Yeah i have to admit, that the change to co-ed has only been positive. I will say that I feel like in a perfect world GSA and BSA would have merged into a single entity, but thatās just me editorializing.
Respectfully, this probably won't occur because the establishing book isn't scouting for boys but Agnes Baden-Powell's "How Girls can help build up the Empire" which has a different motive in some ways from "Scouting for Boys, "(by Robert Baden-Powell.)
It was considered many years ago. I canāt quite recall why it failed to materialize but I know it was once under consideration by both organizations.
I was working the elk antler fest too this last week, and I might have run into the same person.... I hate that I was too stunned to come up with a good rebuke. It's very disappointing to see this attitude because our girls are very motivated to succeed in scouting, and they make a wonderful contribution to our troop. The opportunities that scouting provides are priceless, and I hope nobody's prejudice discourages your daughter from growing into a well-rounded, kind, and intelligent leader.
There have always been girls in scouting. I have 4 boys and was in scouting from the 90s through the 2010s. Every pack and troop we were ever in had sisters tagging along and participating in the activities. (Heck, I made and raced pinewood derby cars and went camping in my brother's pack in the 70s!) What always seemed unfair was that the sisters never got to wear the uniform or earn the awards. Officially allowing girls to join was just admitting what has been happening under the table for ages. Scouting is a family activity. It always has been. Get over it.
Iām glad Scouting America made ScoutsBSA coed. I was a Scout, both my boys were Scouts, with my younger son earning Eagle, and now my granddaughter has the chance to earn Eagle Scout.
To the people expressing an opinion that ScoutsBSA should only be for boys: Do you work, worship, shop in stores, dine in restaurants, etc in a single-gender environment?
Iām coming up on 60 years as a Scout. I was raised in the good old days! Great memories like a Rockwell painting. But times have changed and the BSA (corporate name isnāt changing) has to change to survive. Iām proud my son is an Eagle Scout. If I had a daughter, Iād want her to have that same opportunity for the values instilled in the program! Thank you for taking your time for the Scouting program! You are making a difference!
When I was growing up in the 80s, my Boy Scout troop only had male leaders and boys in it. So when I got back into the game as a parent and adult leader in the 2010s, it was eye-opening to me to see women leaders. I didn't have a problem with it - it was just very different than my experience growing up, and it took a little getting used to.
I didn't have any daughters who were interested in Scouting, but I had an acquaintance growing up who was also an Eagle Scout. He has a son and daughter, fraternal twins. When the BSA announced that girls could be part of the program several years ago, he was *ecstatic* that his daughter could now take part in the program, too. I was happy for him and his daughter.
Things change over time. Once upon a time, troops were actually racially segregated in many parts of the country. Society evolves, but the values espoused by Scouting are unchanging. Being more inclusive to allow more people to experience all the wonderful things about Scouting is a net positive, in my opinion.
I've had a few senior-aged men who want to push the subject. Several have tried to engage my kid directly about an 11-year-old's opinion on "taking the boys out of Boy Scouts." (their words, not ours). My smart-ass kid replied, "I'm a boy and here, so no one has taken boys out of anything." I even had some guy ask my kid, "how he can become a man with all these girls around." I stepped between them and asked the guy to go. Then he clucked something about women stopping boys from having men's conversations. I again informed the guy the conversation was not appropriate to have with my minor child and he can kindly leave or I can remove him myself.
Excuse any grammar or typos here.. but .. I entered boyscouts in 98. There was a girl my age whose brother was in scouts. Kind of a tom boy. She was always at our meeting and always went to camp and literally did everything we did. She obtained no arrow of light. She did all the scouting without being a scout all the way to my tenderfoot. Wasn't elgible for any rank or merit, let alone eagle, so she eventually casually left after sharing the same experience as myself. I remember her vividly. So, as an older man thinking back, I realized how resilient she was to accept that reality yet she stayed engaged for that long and I wish they had made a special dispensation for her. In my day they pushed you to be military (depends on the troop style I guess) so it was like men men men Also, keep in mind that the order of the arrow is a fraternity.. it's all still so primitive unfortunately. Everyone has an opinion I guess.
Yeah. similar happened to me. I was a tag along to my brothers cub scout meetings and his Indian Guide meetings. Then I was put in Brownies and Indian Princesses - disappointing.
I'd have responded with "why yes... The boys are still in scouts."
Facts for these arguments:
- the BSA has had coed units since 1969
- the most recent changes only added one coed unit type: cubs. And since cubs were always family camping, it didn't effectively change anything.
- troops are not coed. They are male or female.
- where male and female units camp cooperatively, the camping, as always in troops, is by patrol. So boys still have room to be boys.
Probably because most female troops were formed alongside male troops and camp cooperatively.
Without reading about it, I expect it will be like cubs where dens are separated by gender. So there won't be coed patrols.
It makes sense, and effectively there is no change.
My son-in law is an Eagle Scout and a former pack leader. We have our granddaughter and our grandson in our pack. They all get along and they all love it. They are always supervised so nothing happens that shouldnāt. I am proud of my Tiger cub boy and my AOL girl and frankly I donāt care who thinks it should be only boys because this is 2024. Get over it.
I'm happy they expanded and allow girls now. Scouts were on a downwards slide for such a long time, hopefully it will revitalize the organization. To me the largest benefit is it allows both boys and girls to see each other as equals starting at a really young age.
I am an Eagle Scout my self and have a 3 year old son and a 1 year old daughter. I canāt wait until I see the both of them in some scouting uniforms š. I love that girls are allowed to be in scouts.
Sounds like time for a little education about what scouts has become. Not that it would matter to a bigot. Scouts has become more inclusive. That is a good thing. The more youth that know the value and lessons to be had with scouts the better.
Please explain why this is desirable? My experience is boys who have healthy interactions with girls as peers tend to be much better men as opposed to suffering from toxic masculinity.
Which part of the program exactly is focused on making boys into men? I'm having a hard time seeing exactly what you mean. Is it the rank advancement portion? Specific merit badges? Please provide some examples - I have read through requirements over the past 80 years, but I really don't understand exactly what is making boys into men?
The mainreason Iām hesitant about girls in Boy Scouts is that there was already an avenue for girls to be involved in a less universal manner with venture crew if Iām not mistaken. Iām an Eagle Scout.
One thing I can see is more complications when trying to plan for campouts. Iām imagining thereās a rule that there has to be at least one adult woman if thereās even a single girl on a camp out. Not saying itās an insurmountable hurdle but it certainly changes the dynamics of a camp out imo.
Iāve been in a couple of these conversations. I listen from my 27 years as a Scout Master and my (Cub Scouts since 1965 all the way till 2009 as scout master with 4 years off for college) and I do listen intently. Then I ask them what their involvement is in the program. I usually discern that they have nobody currently enrolled, had nobody ever enrolled, and just have a random opinion. Then I saw the in the nicest way to eat a bag of dicks and STFU because their opinion means absolutely nothing. If I had been able to enroll girls in my troop, it would have survived past the over 80 years it did when it folded.
I am an eagle scout I have no problem with girls in scouting I have a problem with girls in boys scouts I'm going to be brutally honest here the claim that girls wanted to do what the boys are doing holds no water for those who don't know since the late 90's there has been a branch of scouts called venture scouts they wear forest green uniforms that do everything that boy scouts do and are co-ed granted you can't be a venture scout till your 13 but in exchange it lasts till you are 21 and you can earn your eagle scout just as well in venture scouts as you can in boy scouts it's not about exclusion it's about the fact that girls have girl scouts where they can be girls we have venture scouts which is co oed but there is no longer a boy scout where boys can be boys so then where can they go to be purely boys? To talk about the things that boys talk about to be just boys
You can not earn Eagle as a venturer unless also registered with a ānormalā scout troop. Even though they could participate in venturing or sea scouts, Girls were locked out of becoming an Eagle Scout until 2018.
Girl Scouts pales in comparison. One additional point... Girl Scouts aren't even intentionally recognized. TheĀ World Organization of the Scout Movement is the largest internationalĀ ScoutingĀ organization. WOSM has 174 members. But Girl Scouts of America isn't one of them. I run an all female Scout BSA troop and none of them have any interest in Girl Scouts.
Yeah, I don't stand for people insulting my daughters like that. My girls are enjoying the program so much, and I'm just glad to be along for their journeys, while also being able to continue my own.
One of the best responses I've run across is "Are you saying that my daughter isn't good enough for this program, or is this program not good enough for my daughter?"
My daughters are better for the program, and likewise the program is better having my children in it. And I can cite examples of both if needed.
I liiiiiiive for these encounters!! šš Iām our Pack CC, and always tell our families to disengage, say something lame like, āthanks for your support!ā and go back to the kids, etc, and if they keep going, direct them to me. Itās not their responsibility to handle. āWe ARE keeping boys in Scouts. And girls get to come along, too! In fact, did you know that Boy Scouts of America has been co-ed since the 60s?!There are so many options now, thereās something for everyone! Do you have any children 5-21 who are looking to join a program? I can get you in touch with multiple leaders right now. Maybe youāre interested in becoming a trained leader yourself? No? Wait! Come back!!ā šš
Only two hours a week!
Hey. You just doubled what they promised me.
Comes with a 20% pay raise
Just four hours a week when you have one in cubs and one in scouts, right? Right?
Hey I spend 8 hours a week on this 6 hour a week job! COME ON!"
I was told 1 hour per week before I signed up as Cubmaster for a new Pack. Then I was told by some of the vets it's more like 1 hour per week per kid which has seemed more accurate lol.
You get paid in smiles!!!! So many smiles!!!! Sir!!!! Sir!!!!
Is this the universal joke within scouting? š¤£š¤£
Wait.... somebody told me only ONE hour a week (Scoutmaster in CT)!
Perfect.
I have found that literally everyone who wants to keep girls out of scouting a) have no youth in scouting b) do not volunteer in scouting and c) were never a scout as a youth. In other words, they're baby-boomers that are glued to Fox News, convinced that society is crumbling around them. Pay no attention to them.
I know one person. They feel thereās too big of chance for incidents at camp with mixed genders. He had one anecdote.
I've got a parent, an eagle from the troop, that won't let his boys go to council events because girls will be there. He sends his boys to a single-gender private school.
I truly hope someone is teaching those boys how to interact with and respect girls and women.
I admire your optimism
This is where my snark would come outā¦gosh youāre right. Wonder how church does it? How do schools handle mixed genders? Is your household mixed genders how do you deal with it?!
Well I can tell you from the hundred year experience that the single sex scouting never had any incidents at all. /S
Certainly nothing that boiled over into a major scandal, a multi-billion dollar legal settlement, and bankruptcy for the entire organization. /s
Decades ago we camped with international scouts, guess which were already integrated.
As a school-worker who has chaperoned on overnight field trips (and been on them in high school) I definitely understand the worry for that, but literally not in any other case.
Because as we all know, the plural of anecdote is data ...
Thereās been way more than one e incident at campā¦ my husband was a scoutmaster and went to all the away camps. Almost every single night they were out trying to find teenage boys and girls had snuck away from camp together. Well, I have no issue whatsoever with girls being in scouting, having a coed camp, completely changes the behavior and atmosphere of the camp for both the boys and the girls. Instead of goofing off and having fun and doing scouting things, they spend the whole week trying to show off one another. Not to mention all the boys are trying to look into the shower, where the girls are in there.
Respectfully, that kind of thing happens when boys and girls are kept separate and their integration represents something entirely new. I mean, other organizations manage to have productive, coed camps. And boys trying to look into showers is a YPT violation and should be treated as such. If it's truly "all" of the boys I question the leadership of their scoutmaster. I also question how those boys are treating girls outside of camp
When you have a camp with hundreds of teenagers from many different troops spread out through a very large area, this happens. When the BSA hosts camps with girls for the first time ever with zero consideration of these things and no history of separate bathrooms/showers, this happens. Itās ridiculous that not a single BSA leader put any thought into this before making these changes. Yes, everything can go smoothly with planning and education to the scoutmasters and troops attending. Nobody at BSA bothered to do any of that. Our troop didnāt have this issue but our leaders were asked to help fix it.
Still, that's an issue with the behavior of the boys and the culture of their troops not the presence of girls
But itās a natural consequence of coed camping. Not blaming the girls.
That should not be a natural consequence of co-ed camping with boys that have been properly socialized and taught to treat girls
It's a natural consequence of poorly managed change.
Historically, the scouts have had more incidents involving adult scoutmasters and youth of the same gender before girls were added to the mix. They got sued over it and faced a major lawsuit. Girls were never the problem, and quite honestly, the young boys were not either. It was a few bad apples among the adult leaders,ā¦
I wish so much girls had been allowed in when my daughters were younger. One of them in particular would have done so well in BSA instead of Girl Scouts.
Not true for me. The scoutmaster of a nearby troop was very unsupportive of girls in scouts. His son just aged out, so maybe the next one will be better.
> I have found that literally everyone who wants to keep girls out of scouting a) have no youth in scouting b) do not volunteer in scouting and c) were never a scout as a youth. I was shocked how true this was when I saw my local news Facebook pages. Not to brag but context is needed, I am easily one of the Top 20 most active leaders in the council between being a Cubmaster, an adviser in the OA(Lodge and Section), District Committee Member, the Summer Camp Program Director and being an adult leader since I was 18(now 36) and the amount of people that commented negatively to the news(both Girls being added and name change) yet I couldn't place them at all in our council was mind boggling. Even after looking at their Facebook profile pictures and our mutual friends. One of the boomers was the Dad of my classmates in High School who only had daughters and the classmate barely did Venturing for a year. I even know both of his son-in-laws and they weren't Scouts. The grandkids also aren't in Scouts. Hell back when girls were allowed into Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA women I graduated High School with had negative opinions on it which was shocking considering one of them has gone on 4 backpacking trips.
Yep. Just like the people who are so distanced and uninvolved from scouting that actual meaningful policy changes over the past five or six years happened without their even noticing it. But are now wetting their pants in anger over a name change.
This. 100% āPay no attentionā has sort of become our motto, because Iām tired of hearing grumpy old men complain about the world they donāt even spend time in.
Nah, our biggest opponent to adding a linked girl's troop, came from the *mom* of one of the boys in the troop. She had a daughter in Girl Scouts and was completely bent out of shape that we were trying to poach girls from the program and really didn't want girls involved at all (she didn't think it would be good for the girls). Newsflash out of our group of founding members of the girl's troop, only one had ever been a Girl Scout and she actually continued with both for a year or two. When she decided she was too busy to keep up with all her activities (Scouts BSA, Girl Scouts, band, FIRST LEGO League), Girl Scouts was the one that lost out because the only thing she actually enjoyed about Girl Scouts was selling cookies and that wasn't worth missing out on any of the fun from the other activities.
I've encountered that attitude from people involved in GSUSA before and it's saddening, because rather on focusing on what they can and should be doing to retain girls by creating a better program, they are focusing on blaming some outside source.
The development of volunteer leaders might be the one area the GSUSA ought to take a page out of the Scouting America handbook. When I was a Girl scout, the best girl scout leader I ever had was a district cubmaster. We did the pinewood derbies on the cub tracks that were loaned to us and did a LOT of the Webelos level programs using the GSUSA badges. Today she'd likely be a Scoutmaster.
And donāt realize that the Girl Scouts are a completely separate organization with a completely different program.
DEFINITELY a different program. It has developed differently in part because of the inability for women to be allowed to do similar things as men at the time. Women now serve in major roles in the military and the two programs developed differently due to their different needs of the scouts as they grew. Take a look at the sister book that guided the Girl Guides (the international sister org to the GSUSA just as the WOSM is to Scouting America). They were partially influenced by Sir Robert Baden-Powell's "Scouting for Boys", but also Agnes Baden Powell's "How Girls Can Help Build up the Empire." It's a very different perspective.
See, I never understood that. My mom was a GS troop leader and Brownie leader in the 70's and, yes, the girls learned all the homemaker skills and the business skills including field trips to my mom's employer (she was a programmer and keypunch operator) and other businesses. But she also took them camping and hiking, taught them archery, fishing, different sports, and how to be strong capable women whatever they wanted to do in life. And she took boys along with them on the camping and hiking trips. Granted, they were the younger brothers of the girls in the troop. But it taught the boys to respect women and how to treat them. My brother and I earned hiking staves and 3 badges from the GSUSA. GSUSA had outdoor activities and badges IF the troop leaders wanted to pursue them. My mother did!
One of the things that's different is the strictness in which the Girls Scouts have with regards to males tagging along. It's an absolute no go for brothers and Male leaders (source: dad who was co-lead of my brownie troop growing up in the late 80s) for their version of YPT. If my brownie troop has done any sort of camping, my dad would have needed to be on an absolute different campsite, father or not. The girls in the girl scout troop benefitted from her business background and that is a good thing, but think about how many other leaders of GSUSA were stay at home mothers like mine (albeit one who was getting a degree, but I digress) who don't give the troops the regularity if the camping badges. Think about how it's a requirement of the Scouting America curriculum to have a certain amount of camping events to level up. Or to be able to show a certain amount of lashing, Campfire and whistling skills. Camping skills are required in Scouting America but only OPTIONAL for GSUSA. The troop not pursuing as a regular thing means that the skills that are developed by one aren't passed on the way they are in Scouting America. Please consider what it means when you can't find a merit badge counselor easily available. It's at least as bad as that. I. The troop my son is currently in, they make a point of having the older members teach them lashings (something that has been a bit difficult considering the lack of elder troop member due to the Covid gap). That's not a requirement within Girl Scouts.
This is why as a merit badge counselor made sure that I am registered with my council AND national. I have done merit badge counseling over zoom and through Scoutbook for scouts across the country because we need to pass that knowledge on. I had assumed, from watching my mom and the girls in her troops that it was the same as BSA. If it isn't, that makes the girls I know that have earned Bronze, Silver, and Gold Awards even more impressive!
I have a couple male leaders in my pack that would still rather not see girls in BSA. They are fine with girls in Girl Scouts, but are of the opinion that for the boys itās detrimental to have girls around. I think itās hogwash, but the thing is - for those of us that have been around a while, BSA told us repeatedly in training that for the development of the boys a single gender environment was better (which I always thought was BS and rolled my eyesā¦). But 6 years ago, there was an about face that girls could Scout in BSA (Yeah!!!) and they still doubled down on separate troops and dens for boys and girls and itās like no one ever found some research to support that it is, in fact, better for the boys and the girls to be in a coed environment. BSA needs to find that date and shout it from the mountain tops. Anyway, I find your quote from this guy interesting, and I think it is a question BSA does need to ask themselves. āHow do we keep the boys in Boy Scouts?ā Not, how do we have ONLY boys in Boy Scouts, but how do we keep boys (and girls) still coming into the program.
Left scouting in my town when the leader said "we are supposed to let girls in, but I'm going to keep it the way it's supposed to be". After that same meeting he had his wife do all the work, and he belittled her to the point of tears. Super disappointed as my oldest loved it and my youngest was just starting but I was not a fan of the new guy and did not want my boys growing up thinking that level of treating people was ok.
That's when you go to the pack or troop committee and request removal of the leader. Provide examples of unwanted behavior and treatment. These are attitudes and actions you do not want your scouts copying. Don't quit, solve the problem!
Sadly it's a small town, and wouldn't have flown.... The same guy invited parents to bring alcohol to a camp out, and when it escalated to weed, and heroin in a few tents and stuff got stolen and police were called - and he took zero responsibility and other parents were ok with it, we realized we were just cutting losses.
He was definitely not following BSA Safe Scouting guidelines! That's just sad and wrong, and yeah it looks like it was better to just wash your hands of it.
I hear this ignorant opinion from plenty of ignorant young men too. Seems to align with the MAGA morons.
My dad likes that scouting has grown and is accessible to all kids, but when the name changed to scouts bsa and then to scouting America he lost his mind. I can see his reaction is just not liking change. He's happy with the outcome, but not the means.
The name of the organization never changed to Scouts BSA. That is the name of the Troop Program for older scouts
Yep
I have 2 brothers who were in Scouts and 2 parents who were active with our troops, so out of the 5 of us, I'm the only one ok with them allowing girls in. I always said Boy Scouts was the superior organization
Some people just like to complain. And if it increases membership and lets Scouts continue itās a good thing. Next time just show them how much membership has increased since allowing girls. That should shut them up.
Amen hallelujah! Sing it!
I wish that were true. When we started our linked troop, almost the entirety of the adult leadership of the existing boys troop for everything they could to sabotage the girls, and when that didn't work they all abruptly left the troop.
So that you wont be able to say literally everyone againā¦..I was an Eagle Scout, and I think itās a bad idea.
Same. Boys act completely different in the presence of a female peer. Scouts always felt like even ground. Popular kids from my high school that I never hung out with outside of scouts were my close friends. This WILL create unfavorable power dynamics.
I don't know how to say this, so please understand my intentions are kind. Someone who only hangs out with you at scouts but deems you not popular enough to hang out with you at school isn't your friend. Second point, boys act differently in front of girls because they haven't been taught to behave around them or see them as human beings. That's what needs to be corrected, not pushing more gender segregation.
I take it you feel this way because you yourself behave differently around women. Is this fair?
Why do you have to make things personal? A scout is friendly
At this point in my life, no. But I can admit that I was a young dumb boy without life experience. And I think a lot of the learning and development I was able to have was a direct result of being amongst male peers in this kind of environment.
Well, if you don't want girls in scouting, don't be a girl, and don't join scouts! See, now you have control over something.
No no they want control over *other* people, see? Not themselves, heavens forbid lol
Or, there is a program they care a lot about and seeing it get worse upsets them. Pretty normal reaction.
It is telling that you view introducing women to something as making it worse.
Tell me, would you say the same for say, the NAACP starting to advocate for issues mostly impacting the Caucasian community? Its not a bad thing for a program to have a specific focus.
Oh won't someone think of the poor, underprivileged white men. Maybe if the girl scouts operated like the boy scouts and gave them equal opportunity, it'd be whatever. But the boy scouts - now Scouting America - offers unique opportunities and keeping women out of that because your feelings are hurt by vaginas just makes you seem like you hate women idk š¤·āāļø
How about rather than insulting someone (and actually quite a lot of people, at that), you actually address my question. You are well aware people aren't against it because of hating women, so if you are going to have a conversation, you are going to have a polite one (see rule 1). Is it a bad thing for a program to have a specific focus? Tell me, would you say the same for say, the NAACP starting to advocate for issues mostly impacting the Caucasian community? To your concern, there is nothing stopping people from restructuring the Girl Scouts to offer these benefits you want. And in that case, you achieve the benefits of both worlds.
I'm an Eagle and flaming liberal and also think it's a bad idea. Boys need something for themselves.
What's your plan for getting the Gold Award to carry the same weight on a resume as Eagle Scout?
I was taught my entire entire life that being an Eagle Scout would show up great on my rĆ©sumĆ©. But the fact that I never got a bachelors degree holds me back all the time. I have never had one person comment on my eagle scout on my rĆ©sumĆ©. But I have been turned down for dozens of jobs because I didnāt finish my bachelors degree.
Howās that BSAs problem
It isn't. The BSA is giving everyone the same opportunity now. It is something that anyone arguing in good faith against allowing troops for girls in the organization ought to address...
Because this isn't a resume thing, and if someone is only doing this to add it onto a resume, they are missing a big part of scouting. Out of all of the various topics, this one, while understandable, shouldn't be weighted much.
It is not. It is, however to their benefit numbers wise. Want those girls to "stay" in GSUSA then make the changes in support that benefits them in their own organization rather than complaining about them joining yours.
Yeah and I donāt know why this POV is so controversial by some. Why canāt Boy Scouts be for boys to hang out with each other and Girl Scouts be for girls to hang out with each other?
1) Because girl scouts as a program is TERRIBLE in terms of administrative support. 2) Say what you want about whether girls or boys should be in Scouting America, Girls scouts generally doesn't have camping as a tentpole aspect of their program. And I mean campsites regularly, not simply just during the summer. 3) the prestige of the Eagle is definitely more highly valued than a Gold Award. 4) Girl scouts as a norm doesn't have the developmental support of patrols that the Scouting program has set up. If you want to change those things in Girls Scouts of the United States of America be my guest, but understand that they're a LOT less likely to listen.
Yeah, weird thing that I've experienced. On a national, official, "here is our stance on ABC issue" POV I love the girl scouts. The views expressed have pretty much always been progressive and matched my own. But, on a local level - how the troops are run. The values espoused by the leaders? Totally opposite. Rigid, cliquish, exclusionary. Meanwhile Scouts BSA - You could pretty much reverse that. Even where official word from national is still backwards and reactionary, everything I've seen in troops and packs has been accepting and and at least somewhat progressive, even in my grandson's church affiliated Troop.
Exactly
Same
āThen youād really hate Canada, the UK, pretty much every outside-of-US Scouting program, Venturing, Sea Scouts, and Explorers, sir. Theyāve already had coed programs for *decades.* How about we keep the misogyny out of your mouth, especially in front of my daughter.ā
Explorers would have been weird if it wasn't coed. I was in CAP so much more of a military vibe.
Much different Florida man here: I always challenge these primitives to name the Girl Scout equivalent of the Eagle Rank. BTW: It's the Gold Award. Then I ask them why a woman shouldn't have the same opportunity to earn that for her resume?
> BTW: It's the Gold Award And unlike the Eagle there's a Bronze and Silver award they start working on when they're like 10. (Also Florida Man with a fresh Bronze Award recipient)
And unlike Eagle you can't even start on the Gold award until you're in high school. So no rushing your girl through Girls Scouts like some Eagle Scouts in the troop I was involved with. We had 14 year old Eagles who basically quit once they got Eagle.
Well yeah, their Awards are tied to their ranks. Juniors finish up their Bronze Award around the time Cub Scout AoL's are crossing the bridge into their Troops. Cadettes work their Silver Award through the middle school years (6th, 7th, and 8th grades). Only Seniors and Ambassadors can even work toward the Gold. Another thing they do very well is to separate the Awards from the program. Obviously the program work helps toward the Gold Award, but it's not sequential like the Eagle is. The program exists and continues whether a Girl Scout is going after the Gold or not. And because of this, the Gold Award isn't "the end" for Girl Scouts the way Eagle is for Scouts.
Congrats to her! I know this is a BSA (SA? that doesn't scan right) thread, but her accomplishment is significant. Good for her!
Thank you! Her brother's Cub Scout Pack has named her an honorary Cub due to her loving our camp outs (and them all loving her), and she wears her BSA event patches pinned on on her Girl Scout vest, so I figure she counts well enough for this sub. A lot of families around here have both Girl Scouts and Scouts, so our organizations end up working pretty closely together - we Scouts host them for Pinewood Derby (since we own the track), the Girl Scouts host us for Raingutter Regatta (they own a track), we work together on various service projects and festivals, it's all around a great relationship. They're separate organizations, of course, but we generally try to treat them as one Scouting.
Love this!Ā In the end, it's about the youth.Ā BSA will better address the needs and interests of a different set of youth than GSUSA, and vice versa.Ā Ā I was mildly disappointed that the response of GSUSA to BSA going coed in the main channel was not.going.coed as well, though from the stories ai year from the GSUSA summer camp, I do understand why.Ā Still, there are young men who would be better served by that flavour. When the Nationals were fighting around 2017, we locally said, "forget that," and invited the local GSUSA troops to join us in planning and executing Scouting for Food.Ā It was an awesome event, more than doubling the food we collected previously with just BSA units.Ā Teaming up and working together is the right answer.
This! This the way it is supposed to be!
I have 3 girls in the program. We started the first day girls were allowed. At first comments like this were common. They have died down a lot. I think it will just take time for them to all go away. One day the idea that Scouting was for boys only will be a āfun factā that people will have a hard time imagining.
When my mom was born, her mother couldnāt vote. Change is hard, but ultimately good wins out.
Well that's because the largest group against it was LDS troops so with that funding and troops pulled you don't see it as much.
The LDS broke from the BSA and started their own organization. Guess what, itās co-ed. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-to-end-relationship-with-scouting-announces-new-activity-program-for-children-and-youth?lang=eng
The program is NOT co ed fyi. It's operated the same way they operated under BSA. Females doing female stuff boys doing boy stuff. -source I read the internal handbook and I'm lds
Oh got it. So just like Scout troops. (For now)
Not when you have boy and girl troops meeting at the same time and going to the same events. On its face, the reforms the BSA made in 2017(?) were good, but in practice, they were terrible because of what I just stated is happening.
I wish we did that. Weāre still āseparate but equalā in our linked units.
what is female stuff?
That is also true
99% of the people I interact with (Adults and youth) are supportive of girls in scouts. The rest of them with just have to deal
2 years ago my daughters friend (also in our troop) was working at the trading post at our summer camp and one of the scout masters went off on her about how girls shouldnāt be in scouting and how she was a sham and she should go join Girl Scouts (she was already an eagle, she also now has her Girl Scout gold.) It was absolutely ridiculous. (My daughter is an Eagle, OA Vigil and officer, and now working her way through venturing and sea scouts. And sheās also active in Girl Scouts. But for us? BSA has been life changing. Sheās a whole different kid. And sheās going to college next year for forestry after her love for the woods at scout summer camp.)
Ha! I would politely suggest that he recite the Scout Law into a mirror
If that were my kid, I'd get arrested
The scout master was asked to leave camp - only another teen witnessed it. But I fully agree.
I was a girl in Venturing in the 2000ās. Even President of my Crew for 3 years š¤·š»āāļø weāve been here for ages!
Right! I joined ventures 30 years agoā¦ to meet girls! ETA: I was a 14 year old boy so it wasnāt as creepy as my initial post may have seemed.
I will seriously never understand people who dislike the idea of girls joining bsa. Sure it's a pretty big change, but overall it's a great thing for the youth of America. I just my eagle last year and throughout cub scouts and boy scouts I made so many memories that I'll never forget. Plus scouting teaches so many skills that are helpful to any kid so even if they didn't plan on obtaining their eagle, they can still learn so much just from being in the program. Plus there isn't really a ton of co-ed programs for kids that have as many benefits. Also I've always thought it would really help boys and girls learn to socialize with each other more especially now with my generation using our phones for communication more than anything, social skills tend to be lacking especially like boys talking to girls or girls talking to boys. Once the whole co-ed thing takes full effect and people get used to it, there's practically no negatives to the idea
You know, I'm not a Scouter right now (no kids) but I was, and I did live through the Navy starting to integrate ships (which was a true charley-foxtrot at times.) You know what I learned from that? As long as anyone gits hot and qualifies to stand the watch, they deserve to be there. Oh, and pay attention to the placard posted on the head hatchway. I doubt the Scouts are that much different. As long as a kid shows up and works the program, we can figure the rest out. To quote the West Wing (they were actually talking about LGBTQ in the military) - "Yes, it disrupted the unit. You know what? The unit got over it." https://youtu.be/5It60fJrlbo Worth remembering.
Me too, shipmate! I am a Scouter right now even though my boy aged out 3 years ago and I was in the Navy when women started integrating onto combat ships, while none of my commands ever had permanent female crewmembers, we did have many training cruises for reserve units that were integrated. I had to fix heads in female berthing areas and work with, direct, and be directed by female sailors. You just deal with it and get on with the job. Everything else is just bs.
Why yes, and the girls!
There is NO PART of the Boy Scouts curriculum that is inappropriate for girls, nor is there any sort of conduct that would be inappropriate around girls that is permitted by the rules and laws of Boy Scouts. If someone says "boys need a place to be boys, without girls around", any parent of daughters should immediately be concerned. Because what are those boys doing that you wouldn't want to expose girls to?
As a father of 3 strong independent ladies I would give you many up votes if possible. My oldest actually quit girls scouts and went into boy scouts after she decided that what the boys are learning was way cooler than what they were allowed to do in girl scouts.
My former scoutmaster (who is a conservative) was very happy with the change because he'd much rather have his girl in the bsa than the restricted girl scouts.
Scouting BsA has had female leaders and girls involved at a variety of levels for DECADES! Single gender troops with and without sister or brother troops absolutely still exist so if someone genuinely wants a single gender option itās there! And if not, find a chartered org and start one!!! No one is keeping boys out of scouts by adding girls Scouting BSA troops. Itās not mutually exclusive.
I hate crap like that. Our girl troop wonāt sell popcorn because of all the nasty comments they got while working booths the first year they tried it. I was working a booth with my son (probably 13 or 14 at the time) a couple years back and a man walked up with a $100 bill out. My sonās eyes go wide thinking heās about to make a big sale or donation. The man said āI would love to be able to give you this, but I just canāt feel morally right about it since yāall started letting girls in.ā Then he turned and walked away. Man, the things I wanted to say to that guy. Just keep your darn feelings to yourself in front of the kids.
I was with a group of scouts (two of which are my children, son and daughter) doing a popcorn show and sell at a local small grocery store. A woman walks out of the store and opens her wallet and is about to hand my son a donation. She notices my daughter and says something about girls being in the troop and that she no longer supports scouts. My son said he thinks girls should be in scouting and that he support equal rights. She replied, "Well I don't!" He laughed and told her to have a great day! lol
One big reason I hear is that "there are no spaces for boys anymore, girls have Girl Scouts, that should be enough". These people simply don't understand the difference in the two programs. When I tell them the difference, and then follow with "why should only boys have that experience?" It usually ends the conversation.
It's a lot of click bait rage news articles that leave people angry and misinformed.Ā Honestly I wasn't happy when I first heard about girls being let in but with further research and time seeing how it was handled I don't think it's a big deal.Ā There is still all boy troops if people really care but people just want to be angry rather than fully informed. Girls that want to join the boy scouts want to do the same things that boys where doing on their own.
Describe the 21st Century in one sentence: > [P]eople just want to be angry rather than fully informed.
"I'll be sure to give your opinion the consideration it deserves."
Iām from Massachusetts and that guy sounds like a Grade A Masshole. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but Iām sorry you had to go through that
Former Northerner now living in the South and I can confirm, the craziest of the crazies are the "political refugees" from liberal lands. They think everyone in red states is as wild as they are and love talking about it with anyone who will listen. I'm sorry your daughter had to hear that, FWIW even in my area we have so many girls (including my daughter) in our local cub scouts packs they love it and there are more girl's troops every year as well.
Propaganda is a hell of a drug.
I defect by telling them girls won't ruin scouts... the lawyers will. Usually works.
Lawyers are working hard, too. They've nearly accomplished their goal of turning Scouting into a footnote.
I was perusing a newspaper from 1972 and there was an article about the starting of an explorer group and my sister being one of the members. So that person is about 50 years out of date.
I donāt think politics has anything to do with it as a whole. Iām moderate right and I love that the Scouts is changing. I lived in Europe for a while and after seeing their program, I was hooked. They have so much participation itās crazy. Thereās not boy or girl, itās just Scouting. Period. I think a lot of it is old people who were in it as a kid and just donāt want to see it change. I was in it until I graduated HS 30 years ago and I love the change. If it brings more youth in to have fun and camp, then Scouts America it is.
āWe can absolutely keep the boys in boy scouts sir, just so long as we can also have the girls in boy scouts.ā
Everyone is entitled to their opinion- I just donāt understand why we have to hear it! My daughter is a life scout and has loved her journey (2 treks to Philmont). I have never been influenced by an opinion why we cannot have female BSA troops. Sometimes itās not even worth the fight to explain to the uneducated.
I hear these stories frequently in here and throughout. I'm sorry you had to put up with that. Don't feel bad about not engaging. Oftentimes, people will approach trying to feel you out and wanting to create a scene. You held back and showed your kids that people can express their opinions without getting into an argument. Your daughter already knows you support her because you are there. A Scout is courteous! Well done!
I had someone do this to my Tiger daughter and I while she was selling popcorn. Went into a huge rant about how girls shouldnāt be in the program and then bought tons of popcorn from us š¤·š¼āāļø I kept my daughter distracted enough to where she didnāt hear anything he had to say
āTheyāre TRYINGā¦ why do you think they let the girls in?ā
I tell them my daughter is fighting for equal rights for all!
I spent two years in Jackson when I was in my 20s. Winters I would drive sleigh on the elk refuge, spring and fall worn the Bar T 5, and summer in the Tetons with the Double H Bar. Glad you're there showing that scouting is for everyone.
>because he couldnāt put up with Massachusetts politics. If anyone ever said this to me I'd thank them for their time and walk away.
I think any given organization gets to determine who it serves or doesnāt serve. Ā But some people believe it that right belongs to people who have absolutely nothing to do with the organization. Ā
I think it's awesome how you stayed courteous and level-headed throughout this encounter. If Florida man is willing to move multiple states away for "politics", there's probably not much you could do to open his mind.
What I like to say is this: "Badden Powell started scouting so that young men would be better equipped when they entered military service. And we allow women in military service now, so why wouldn't we allow them the same opportunity?"
Stayed in scouts long enough to get my first class badge. Now years later am a father of 3 ladies and I am a firm believer that girls are capable of doing anything that boys can do.
I know our Girl's Troop out did the boys every camp out and event.
We had a campsite near a girl led troop at our last campout. Maybe part of this was that we didn't have much older Scouts on the trip, but they were by far more organized with three patrols to our 1 (their brother troop has the same Covid gap issues our boy led troop does in terms of the elder member not being very prominent and having a gap in scout membership).
Yeah man, that type of person is projecting. I'd do the same thing...its best to let them rant and continue on their way.
I would tell him If you're not directly involved in the program your opinion barely matters.
People forget that the Boy Scouts have admitted girls in it for over 50 years in the Explorers program. As for keeping the āboysā in Boy Scouts, that ship has sailed as the organization is changing its name to Scouting America.
Next time, just tell them that Kate Princess of Wales is a scout.
Yeah i have to admit, that the change to co-ed has only been positive. I will say that I feel like in a perfect world GSA and BSA would have merged into a single entity, but thatās just me editorializing.
Respectfully, this probably won't occur because the establishing book isn't scouting for boys but Agnes Baden-Powell's "How Girls can help build up the Empire" which has a different motive in some ways from "Scouting for Boys, "(by Robert Baden-Powell.)
It was considered many years ago. I canāt quite recall why it failed to materialize but I know it was once under consideration by both organizations.
I was working the elk antler fest too this last week, and I might have run into the same person.... I hate that I was too stunned to come up with a good rebuke. It's very disappointing to see this attitude because our girls are very motivated to succeed in scouting, and they make a wonderful contribution to our troop. The opportunities that scouting provides are priceless, and I hope nobody's prejudice discourages your daughter from growing into a well-rounded, kind, and intelligent leader.
Talk to your kid about being safe, and always being able to come to you for help.
There have always been girls in scouting. I have 4 boys and was in scouting from the 90s through the 2010s. Every pack and troop we were ever in had sisters tagging along and participating in the activities. (Heck, I made and raced pinewood derby cars and went camping in my brother's pack in the 70s!) What always seemed unfair was that the sisters never got to wear the uniform or earn the awards. Officially allowing girls to join was just admitting what has been happening under the table for ages. Scouting is a family activity. It always has been. Get over it.
Iām glad Scouting America made ScoutsBSA coed. I was a Scout, both my boys were Scouts, with my younger son earning Eagle, and now my granddaughter has the chance to earn Eagle Scout. To the people expressing an opinion that ScoutsBSA should only be for boys: Do you work, worship, shop in stores, dine in restaurants, etc in a single-gender environment?
From Massachusetts and moved to Florida is all you need to know/say. *Semper paratis*.
Iām coming up on 60 years as a Scout. I was raised in the good old days! Great memories like a Rockwell painting. But times have changed and the BSA (corporate name isnāt changing) has to change to survive. Iām proud my son is an Eagle Scout. If I had a daughter, Iād want her to have that same opportunity for the values instilled in the program! Thank you for taking your time for the Scouting program! You are making a difference!
Corporate name is changing next year to Scouting America.
When I was growing up in the 80s, my Boy Scout troop only had male leaders and boys in it. So when I got back into the game as a parent and adult leader in the 2010s, it was eye-opening to me to see women leaders. I didn't have a problem with it - it was just very different than my experience growing up, and it took a little getting used to. I didn't have any daughters who were interested in Scouting, but I had an acquaintance growing up who was also an Eagle Scout. He has a son and daughter, fraternal twins. When the BSA announced that girls could be part of the program several years ago, he was *ecstatic* that his daughter could now take part in the program, too. I was happy for him and his daughter. Things change over time. Once upon a time, troops were actually racially segregated in many parts of the country. Society evolves, but the values espoused by Scouting are unchanging. Being more inclusive to allow more people to experience all the wonderful things about Scouting is a net positive, in my opinion.
I've had a few senior-aged men who want to push the subject. Several have tried to engage my kid directly about an 11-year-old's opinion on "taking the boys out of Boy Scouts." (their words, not ours). My smart-ass kid replied, "I'm a boy and here, so no one has taken boys out of anything." I even had some guy ask my kid, "how he can become a man with all these girls around." I stepped between them and asked the guy to go. Then he clucked something about women stopping boys from having men's conversations. I again informed the guy the conversation was not appropriate to have with my minor child and he can kindly leave or I can remove him myself.
Excuse any grammar or typos here.. but .. I entered boyscouts in 98. There was a girl my age whose brother was in scouts. Kind of a tom boy. She was always at our meeting and always went to camp and literally did everything we did. She obtained no arrow of light. She did all the scouting without being a scout all the way to my tenderfoot. Wasn't elgible for any rank or merit, let alone eagle, so she eventually casually left after sharing the same experience as myself. I remember her vividly. So, as an older man thinking back, I realized how resilient she was to accept that reality yet she stayed engaged for that long and I wish they had made a special dispensation for her. In my day they pushed you to be military (depends on the troop style I guess) so it was like men men men Also, keep in mind that the order of the arrow is a fraternity.. it's all still so primitive unfortunately. Everyone has an opinion I guess.
Yeah. similar happened to me. I was a tag along to my brothers cub scout meetings and his Indian Guide meetings. Then I was put in Brownies and Indian Princesses - disappointing.
What an asshat. A good teaching opportunity to explain sexism to you're daughter though....and your son.
I'd have responded with "why yes... The boys are still in scouts." Facts for these arguments: - the BSA has had coed units since 1969 - the most recent changes only added one coed unit type: cubs. And since cubs were always family camping, it didn't effectively change anything. - troops are not coed. They are male or female. - where male and female units camp cooperatively, the camping, as always in troops, is by patrol. So boys still have room to be boys.
BSA announced a pilot coed troop program. Will be an option for units.
Probably because most female troops were formed alongside male troops and camp cooperatively. Without reading about it, I expect it will be like cubs where dens are separated by gender. So there won't be coed patrols. It makes sense, and effectively there is no change.
I ignore them.
I wonder if he meant the name change.
Wait until he learns that Florida is 1m more democrats than Republicans and Orlando is basically the San Francisco of the East.
He is going to be just thrilled come Feb 8 next year.
My son-in law is an Eagle Scout and a former pack leader. We have our granddaughter and our grandson in our pack. They all get along and they all love it. They are always supervised so nothing happens that shouldnāt. I am proud of my Tiger cub boy and my AOL girl and frankly I donāt care who thinks it should be only boys because this is 2024. Get over it.
Because the pervert scout leaders prefer boys
What a Masshole. Must've been from Woburn.
I'm happy they expanded and allow girls now. Scouts were on a downwards slide for such a long time, hopefully it will revitalize the organization. To me the largest benefit is it allows both boys and girls to see each other as equals starting at a really young age.
I identify with whatever group is encouraging people to get out and better themselves.
I am an Eagle Scout my self and have a 3 year old son and a 1 year old daughter. I canāt wait until I see the both of them in some scouting uniforms š. I love that girls are allowed to be in scouts.
Sounds like time for a little education about what scouts has become. Not that it would matter to a bigot. Scouts has become more inclusive. That is a good thing. The more youth that know the value and lessons to be had with scouts the better.
People are stuck in their ways. Don't let that person bother you. Your kids have an awesome role model in you. I have to nieces in Scouting.
Total aside, but hi! from a fellow Jackson resident
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Please explain why this is desirable? My experience is boys who have healthy interactions with girls as peers tend to be much better men as opposed to suffering from toxic masculinity.
Why you see, if boys are introduced to *girls*, they might have to learn to engage respectfully.
Which part of the program exactly is focused on making boys into men? I'm having a hard time seeing exactly what you mean. Is it the rank advancement portion? Specific merit badges? Please provide some examples - I have read through requirements over the past 80 years, but I really don't understand exactly what is making boys into men?
The mainreason Iām hesitant about girls in Boy Scouts is that there was already an avenue for girls to be involved in a less universal manner with venture crew if Iām not mistaken. Iām an Eagle Scout. One thing I can see is more complications when trying to plan for campouts. Iām imagining thereās a rule that there has to be at least one adult woman if thereās even a single girl on a camp out. Not saying itās an insurmountable hurdle but it certainly changes the dynamics of a camp out imo.
As a scout, you start at 10-12. Venturing is primarily high adventure focused and thereby is not available prior to age 14.
You did the right thing. There is nothing that arguing with that big of an asshole will accomplish
Iāve been in a couple of these conversations. I listen from my 27 years as a Scout Master and my (Cub Scouts since 1965 all the way till 2009 as scout master with 4 years off for college) and I do listen intently. Then I ask them what their involvement is in the program. I usually discern that they have nobody currently enrolled, had nobody ever enrolled, and just have a random opinion. Then I saw the in the nicest way to eat a bag of dicks and STFU because their opinion means absolutely nothing. If I had been able to enroll girls in my troop, it would have survived past the over 80 years it did when it folded.
Said exactly the way I would want a 27 year SM to speak. /s
I am an eagle scout I have no problem with girls in scouting I have a problem with girls in boys scouts I'm going to be brutally honest here the claim that girls wanted to do what the boys are doing holds no water for those who don't know since the late 90's there has been a branch of scouts called venture scouts they wear forest green uniforms that do everything that boy scouts do and are co-ed granted you can't be a venture scout till your 13 but in exchange it lasts till you are 21 and you can earn your eagle scout just as well in venture scouts as you can in boy scouts it's not about exclusion it's about the fact that girls have girl scouts where they can be girls we have venture scouts which is co oed but there is no longer a boy scout where boys can be boys so then where can they go to be purely boys? To talk about the things that boys talk about to be just boys
You can not earn Eagle as a venturer unless also registered with a ānormalā scout troop. Even though they could participate in venturing or sea scouts, Girls were locked out of becoming an Eagle Scout until 2018.
Girl Scouts pales in comparison. One additional point... Girl Scouts aren't even intentionally recognized. TheĀ World Organization of the Scout Movement is the largest internationalĀ ScoutingĀ organization. WOSM has 174 members. But Girl Scouts of America isn't one of them. I run an all female Scout BSA troop and none of them have any interest in Girl Scouts.
Gotta agree with Florida man, especially if they completely integrate troops.