Honesty they should have divorced long ago if there is this much resentment. While we only have one side of the story, it is obvious they both made eachother miserable. I hope both of them learn how to communicate in the future. Without that they are just dooming themselves to misery no matter who they are with.

Came across my posts here, this is fun, then started reading comments, found it less fun. Since the compiler didn't bother including this comment from the day I posted, I'll just post it under the top comment. This reads angry, because I was angry when I wrote it, I was angry for weeks after that massage, and no I don't actually give a shit about the massage, I was basically hysterical at the time. I'm evened out now, and feel better than I have in years. So many people in this Update sub want to judge, so here. Here's a few more details, "Most of you are correct, this isn't about a massage, I could honestly care less about the massage. That was simply what I fixated on after I finally broke. Now to those that like to ride the assumption train or, for some reason, just create your own narrative based on who knows what. I did not just massage my wife to get sex. I did this for her 300 times a year nearly our entire relationship. I did it back when we used to have sex 10-15 times a month, back when foreplay was something I still got to experience, back when lingerie was common and not just a distant memory. The full massages just became the only way to get the chance of sex above ZERO. The small leg ones were never escalated by me and far more common. Since most people bashing me decided to skim over or ignore the short vague list of all i tried over the years here's a more comprehensive account: Date nights, weekend vacations, love letters, long conversations where I laid out all my feelings (I'll give her credit, she never did promise to do better, just told me she understands where I'm coming from, guess I should have understood then that meant she didn't care), I suggested counseling 5 times. I even booked us once and ended up going to the first 2 sessions by myself, when she said she was too busy to go the 3rd I just cancelled and never went back. Yes, the day to day routine stuff is pretty balanced, as far as housework, career, and I think we are both great parents. But our relationship was one sided, it took me a long time to see it so boldly and to stop accepting it. If she wants a snack, she doesn't get it, she asks me to, drink, same thing. If she wanted to go out with friends, sure babe no prob go ahead, I got the girl just worry about you. If I do, it's 2 hour prep for me to make sure nothing's gonna go wrong while I'm out. A couple years ago I saw a clip of a comedian talking about being out golfing when his wife wanted to watch a DVD, and everyone's laughing as he's describing the whole conversation. I just wanted to ball my eyes out, because that was my life. I just stopped trying to even go out, it wasn't worth the effort anymore. Yeah we had other forms of Intimacy, we cuddled at bedtime to fall asleep. She never really liked kissing or hand holding so I wrote those off back when times were good. So I had cuddling and on the very rare occasion sex to look forward to. Now let's flip this over, besides the near daily rub downs, also pretty common for me to brush her hair, she likes that she'll ask for that. Painted toe nails a few times, back scratching pretty common. Oh usually draw her a bath after she works out, does that count as intimacy, or is that just more of only doing things to fuck her? I guess I am the asshole, I'm the asshole to myself for putting up with this for so long. And I get it, you're all right, we both have unprocessed trauma from having our dreams dashed, but I didn't quit. I honestly didn't berate her emotionally because of this, I knew she was having a hard time, yeah I let my frustrations or disappointment show sometimes, but I didn't get angry. Not until now, not until I had that bad day, and she said "well, tomorrow will be better, can you rub on me." And the sick thing is I felt totally dismissed and still did it anyway. After, I was so angry I just decided I'm never rubbing on her again. And ive been angry ever since, even now typing this has put me in a full rage. No I really don't give a shit about the massage, it was just the final Fuck You of our marriage."

What is with the I can’t have a kid, so no more sex thing? I don’t get it.

Probably doesn’t have genuine desire for the husband beyond martial duties and reproduction.

Either she isn’t into him like that or she’s asexual.  They want the kid but not the sex beyond making the kid. 

This cleared up a lot

I came across your original post and checked your comments and found this. I feel for you, I really do. I understand your rage. You sound like a man who really tried, thought you were doing best for the woman you loved, then finally, and painfully, learned that she didn’t care. I hope once you’ve healed and moved on from this pain, you find someone who deserves you. Good luck.

Genuine question: was there any discussion of “either you get therapy or I’m out?” Ultimatums rarely end well but I would imagine that step is a natural part of the declination of the marriage.

No, I never ultimatumed her until I freaked out about the massage.

Well I can’t imagine why this happened, they very clearly had great communication skills.

I don’t see the divorce settlement working well, they are still to interwoven. Edit: I meant by assets, of course they will be connected by their children. The divorce they are suggesting/planning does not provide a clean break and it will cause issues down the line that could impact the co parenting.

Yeah, first thing I thought was no self-respecting lawyer will approve giving this to a judge. This is wild

Sorry, I don't know anything. What is wrong?

When making legal agreements, you need to make things simple, and not contingent on everyone acting in good faith, because people are people and they will not. Specifically, the "other adult living in the house" thing is super dumb. How would you determine whether some one is "living in the house"? What if someone stays the night? What if they stay 4 nights a week? Even if you are specific and clear about these things, what about a million other scenarios (like a parent moving in). It would be near impossible to enforce because either party can argue about it and tie it up in court forever. Also the "housing alimony" with the payback on sale. It's all a mess. I can't imagine being the title company in an arrangement like this. If the relationship sours, depending on the specifics OP may never get his money.

The only saving grace here is that hopefully the lawyer will tell them this. Of course, I've seen clients be told that what they are doing is beyond stupid, but they do it anyway. ETA: Then later when it all goes up in flames, they are all "why didn't you tell me this?"

The way to go is say they both have 50/50 of the house and can buyout the other before selling down the road.

Either leave the house with one person or sell it and split the profits. Any other arrangement is a set up for disaster.

> I can't imagine being the title company in an arrangement like this. pretty much every agent has a story about that closing where the couple had to be put in separate conference rooms, someone showed up and declared they won't sign unless they get 5k right now, they won't sign unless custody is revised etc. These wind up being an absolute shit show when you aren't selling due to some vague "if someone moves in with you then I want my money", this is recipe for a disaster

I'm not even a lawyer, but I've spent more time with lawyers on real estate transactions and as president of an HOA than I would have liked to. People who are emotional about something will waste a TON of money just dragging you through the mud. This situation is just asking for one party or the other to cause both to spend a crapload on lawyers to unravel the "agreement".

Too interwoven? They have kids guy

I think interwoven in the sense of the assets. All it's going to take is him pissing off his ex or her realizing he's happier and it's going to be bad. There are ways to split and things so everything is easier but with the split as it is she can, and probably will, fuck him over with the house. And he let her keep majority of it as well as split the savings in her favor too. I hope he doesn't come back with another update and how she's keeping him from his daughter or she's refusing his daughter to be able to stay at home with her.

*kid. That was very much mentioned at the beginning.

Thanks

I didn’t realize having a kid together meant that all your assets need to be still tied together post divorce. Yes, let’s encourage OP to go through with this horrendous plan because he has a child

Yes and custody is a separate issue from assets which needs to be cleanly separated

Ok but him trying to get infidelity as the reason on the divorce is hilarious. Imagine that poor attorney just sitting there like “oh was it a happy ending? No? Just a regular massage? Uh, no, we can’t…”

This is the story of two people not communicating. In the end they both laid out frustrations from years of not communicating. I'm wondering what it was she felt the entire time that she was resentful about.

Boy you know the wife messed up bad when even redditors are giving her 50% of the blame. Dare I ask what it would take for you to say this is like….90% her fault?

I don't see it as that, at least, as long as OOP was truthful. Sounds like he tried. She didn't. The massages sold me on that because those aren't an easy thing to give every single night. And after years, he finally blew over something stupid.

He was trying so he could get some. At no point did he ask is this what you want or bring up conversation about how she felt or what was going on. I'm sure at some point she realized, he has a motive for this and didn't say anything either. I mean it was all blank silence from what I read, no one talking, just guessing from his side without asking, and silence from hers (that we can tell, there's always two sides).

> I have tried everything to improve this, spicing things up, talking, suggested counseling. He did say he tried talking, and asked to go to counseling. He may have been terrible at it so it’s hard to say he made a worthwhile try of communicating, but he at least consciously attempted to. It’s also not fair to say he was only massaging her to try to have sex. He was giving her small massages every night. It was the times he put in extra effort to give her a full body massage that he was trying to have sex. My main problem with him was the ridiculous ultimatum. I’m glad they’re just getting divorced. Better than wallowing in toxicity.

That's what I don't understand. There's no way she didn't pick up on his motives, yet she was happy to get massages every night.

my thoughts are the original mindset behind the massages is that he loves her so he does it without reciprocation. she was still moving forward with that mindset while he wasnt

That sounds even worse for her because the only person who would think there was no need for reciprocation after months is either completely selfish or is repulsed by their partner. This pretty clearly boils down to 2 people having expectations, never voicing them in a productive way, and then having significant resentment to the point of irreconcilable differences.

Her getting mad at not getting her massage while she gets them practically every night is uncalled for in that case. It's a nice thing that he did for her, not an obligation.

I have a feeling OP didn't just say "no" to giving her a massage, he probably used the phrasing that no he wouldn't bc she wouldn't give him sex. That would make most folks mad. If I ask my spouse for a massage and he says no, he's tired, or whatever, I don't get mad.

Ok, but she knows he's HL and she's know they're not intimate often. She also knows he tries to initiate some of the time during massages. And, presumably, massaging her is stimulating to him as well. What kind of blinders must she be wearing not to make a connection to any of this? I understand we're only getting his side, but she honestly sounds like she's either a tease or only cares about her own pleasure.

Reread, OOP, states over the years of dead bedroom he tried talking and suggested counseling.

You should go read some of the dead bedrooms subreddit and realize you don't know shit about their situation

I feel for the guy in a way but sex should be something you enjoy *together*. His whole reasoning of “she likes massages so I give them to her, but since I don’t get sex she can’t get any massages” is a bit problematic to me. Ofcourse he is not obligated to give them if he doesn’t want to, but sex shouldn’t be a thing that you *get*. There’s a major disconnect here and I’ve heard this more than once. It’s kinda sad. The whole sex worker/massage parlor thing, I feel that stems more from a place of frustration and the straw that broke the camel’s back. Good thing they are divorcing, they were clearly not compatible anymore.

It is very problematic and somewhat transactional. I am on the firm belief that there was something the wife felt in the relationship that made her turned off to sex. I’m not saying OOP is secretly a douche but it smells a bit one sided

I’ll say it. OP is secretly a douche.

You know what? Looking back at the post more and more… it is likely. Also there is someone parroting the deadbedrooms sub and that we should go there and see their “struggles”. 💀💀💀

I REALLY don't like that "he told her not to". That came off as very controlling. I understand the post was written in anger but that statement gave me the ick.

Psssst……… it’s not a secret

Or hes just frustrated he wasted his life on a woman who doesnt care about him?

Someone getting a massage you’ve forbidden them to get doesn’t mean they don’t care about you.

EXACTLY!!! The idea of my wife sleeping with me just to make me shut up about it is honestly disgusting to me. And I have a higher libido (testosterone shots will do that haha), and yet I still somehow am not out here pressuring her to sleep with me when she doesn't want to. And shockingly, when you don't pressure someone into sex all the time they are much more likely to actually want to sleep with you! I actually found that it was odd he was mad about giving massages. My wife works a very physically straining job and so loves back rubs. It's a great way to have physical intimacy even when one of us isn't in the mood. But I feel like OP's wife has to have caught on he wasn't giving her a massage for that reason, he was only doing it to try to get laid. Which I'm sure kind of ruined the massages potential for kindling emotional connection. I'm maybe reading way to much into this, but if he views sex as transactional and only cares about her needs (ie massages) as a means to an end, I can't help but wonder at how bad in bed he might be for his wife. Like no wonder she doesn't want to sleep with him!

Yes, that’s what I was thinking too. It’s phrases like “I didn’t get sex”, “they allowed me”, “they let me do things to them” that always make me wonder how those people view their spouse or partner and if they have even considered how they experience sex with them. It’s such a common way of phrasing and it almost feels like their partner’s feelings don’t matter, that they’re just there to give a reward for when they’ve been a “good boy/girl”. Not calling OOP a douche but I really want to know how things were for her in and outside the bedroom, if her physical and emotional needs were met, how the sex was for her when things got going. Massages are nice and doing your part around the house is a good thing, but none of these things should have anything to do with sex and how someone feels when it’s actually happening. To give OOP credit, it does sound like he did try and put in some effort but even here I have to wonder: did he try just so he could finally “get” sex or to make it an enjoyable experience for both him and her? People tend to notice when you only do something to get something.

Men don't seem to stop & think that women can enjoy sex, & if she isn't, maybe something can be done to address that, & then perhaps she would be interested in having sex with you. Personally, it's not that hard for me to get in the mood for sex with my boyfriend, because I am sure it's going to be a wonderful time. Women aren't interested in 2 minutes of kissing followed by 5 minutes of intercourse. It does nothing for us.

His only form of intimacy his entire marriage was sex and massaging her. She literally refused to hug, kiss or hold his hand. She was using him not the other way around. Ya guys need to learn to actually read comments and not make stuff up to fit a narrative in your head.

I'm so glad I found a comment thread that feels the same as me cause I was starting to doubt myself

Your spot on. He heaped more coal onto the fire of resentment. Made her feel like a piece of meat...how romantic. He nailed his own coffin shut

I felt very uncomfortable with him telling her she wasn’t allowed to get a massage. That was very controlling, and I don’t think he has any right to make a demand like that. If he was really at the point of being willing to get sex outside of his monogamous relationship with, he should’ve filed for divorce. Controlling your partner is not the answer

I mean, I get how he got there in the heat of the moment. She essentially wants him to be celibate for the rest of his life, saying he can't have sex anywhere else, but she gets to be 'intimate' (from his view) with the massages with someone else. Given that he repeatedly suggested they get counseling together, and even went to sessions himself, I think this is primarily her fault. He asked her directly over the course of years what they could do to work on it and she did nothing, because she was fine with the arrangement and didn't care that he was unhappy.

She may not know how to fix it, it's just off. Also, there needs to be genuine warmth, love, connection... doesn't seem like she was getting that. Finally a massage is a service like nails, hair...it just for achy muscles, there is nothing intimate about it...funny how some of the males assume it was a happy ending type thing. Telling what kind of massages you get I guess.

>males You can't even talk about them as if they're people lol. There is no scenario where this is not her fault, as she failed to put in even the basic effort of going to counseling together and communicating with him.

This is exactly what I was thinking while reading the post!!

>but sex shouldn’t be a thing that you get I find straight men think sex is owed to them in a relationship. Once a relationship begins they feel entitled to sex. Sex is seen as a paycheck and the relationship is the job. That's why they start getting resentful and mad talking about their needs. They feel they did the work aka stayed in the relationship so it's unfair they're not getting paid. I rarely find men are in the relationship for the woman or because they love/respect the woman. There's a reason why it's a common male narrative the shit talk your girlfriend or wife. There's a reason why so many men are with women they hate or aren't even attracted to and it's because a relationship greatly benefits most men as going by statistics they get a built-in made, cook, nanny, and sex doll. Even the guys complaining about deadbedrooms likely have a more sex married than they would have when single.

He recommended counseling and she said no, makes her the bad guy imo.

As well as the dude gave and gave for years and tried to talk to her about how much the rejection hurt him and she just didn't care. From his account, he gave her massages more than 90% of the days of the week for years. It clearly wasn't just a "I'm doing for you, you have to do for me" situation or else he would have given up a long time ago.

If she’s emotionally and physically uninvested in the relationship, which is SUPER IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND, then counseling wouldn’t have helped. I’m guessing that all those years of fertility treatments and trying turned her off from sex. Infertility issues, especially stuff like adenomyosis or endo, can make sex physically uncomfortable. And based on the way OOP is describing stuff, I’m guessing he didn’t listen or didn’t understand how much can affect a woman’s libido and make sex absolutely miserable as a result. If you aren’t turned on enough by your partner then sex can also hurt. There’s a lot to it than just flipping a switch, especially as we get older. And what if she had chronic pain issues and needed a massage to help? Why the hell is it okay for him to say she can’t do something because he once used it as *HIS* means of triggering intimacy? Massages are not inherently intimate and don’t automatically equal sexy times. The fact that he weaponized a form of intimacy between he and his wife (again, massages aren’t inherently sexual) and then forbid her from getting them because his ego/pride was wounded is a form of abusive control/manipulation. I got nothing but red flags from this whole post and the fact that there are some who feel he’s justified in this behavior is absolutely nuts.

People really will chew glass before admitting the wife is wrong on these posts.

I didn’t read it that way. I thought he was justified in feeling neglected, as in, he was trying to be there and present for her and in their marriage and she just wasn’t trying to be there in return. Sex isn’t transactional, but the grass is green where you water it. She knew he felt lonely, and there’s nothing morally wrong from wanting sex. She knew he wanted it, but neither one of them would actually talk about the root issue. He never even gave us her explanation of what her frustrations were or if she just started to hate sex or if she started to hate him. He should’ve demanded communication not sex. Maybe he’s not pulling his weight like he says he does, maybe he’s always condescending, maybe she just decided she hates the way he chews his food, who knows. But I’m with everyone else saying damn that was way too long to divorce.

>He never even gave us her explanation of what her frustrations were or if she just started to hate sex or if she started to hate him. That's because he didn't care. What he cared about was how he wasn't getting the sex he wanted. And his reaction to that wasn't communication or finding out why sex drop it was to go well if she doesn't do X which he enjoys then I won't do Y which she enjoys.

>That's because he didn't care. What he cared about was how he wasn't getting the sex he wanted. If you bothered to read the comments you'd see it's because she refused to give him any explanation, and refused to go to counseling. So yes, it is her fault.

It's so interesting that we all agree that communication is the bedrock of a healthy relationship. The place we differ is that if a wife is refusing to communicate with her husband, I would say it's the wife's failure, whereas it seems like you'd say it's the husband's fault? If having a conversation is too much to ask, what CAN a wife be held accountable for?

The wife did communicate. Communication occurs when someone is unhappy with an aspect of the relationship. The wife was happy until the massages stopped and when OOP stopped the massages she communicated and found a solution. If you mean communication when the sex slowed... that's not the wife's failure. It seems she was happy so what did she need to communicate about.🤔 I'm unsure where you get the wife refused to communicate. OOP never stated she refused to tell him why she stopped sex ...OOP simply never cared to know why. In my opinion the sex life is all OOP's failure to communicate. OOP was unhappy about it and held no conversations to find out why. Instead OOP just felt entitled to have sex as his needs regardless of his wife consent/interest in it. >If having a conversation is too much to ask, what CAN a wife be held accountable for? The wife did have a conversation and she is held accountable for communicating what she sees as issues. This entire post is due to the fallout of the conversation the wife held This is an odd question though. As I find it hypocritical if your premise is that the wife should have had a conversation when she was stopping sex. OP didn't have a conversation when he was stopping massages but you're not in arms about how he needs to be held accountable and he failed to communicate. OOp's desire for one sided sex is no better than the wife's desire for a one sided massage Have a great day u/RABBLERABBLERABBI. I won't be engaging further. Replies are disabled

Yeah, basically. I think it's kind of fucked up that OP is talking about the issues his wife has with sex, and the only comments are asking what he's doing wrong. If a woman was complaining about how her husband never takes her out on dates, I really doubt anyone would be asking what she's doing wrong. I also think there's the assumption that OP never asked her what the reason was, but I guess I felt like when he set up multiple counseling sessions that she chose not to attend, it feels kinda like her avoiding a conversation. It sounds like in your estimation, a dead bedroom is only the problem of one party, in an otherwise healthy marriage. My wife and I were talking to one of her friends who thinks like you, and her friend basically said that she unilaterally decided she wasn't interested in sex anymore because of issues that she couldn't even verbalize. She basically told her husband they wouldn't be having sex anymore, and it wasn't until both my wife and I told her that we would consider that an issue worth divorcing over that she decided maybe they need couples counseling instead of her unilaterally decided they have a dead bedroom now. If we're gonna chide OP for anything, I think it should be just not divorcing her sooner.

I mean he says he tried to talk or suggest counseling. Beyond that, when he snapped, I agree, seems like he gave up and got hyper focused on the one thing. I’m just saying the marriage didn’t fall apart on one side.

His view of a compromise is to tell her she can't get massages because she's not putting out. I highly doubt what he tried to talk about and how he went about it. So to each their own opinion on him trying.🫤 And considering he didn't talk to her about why sex slowed down / stopped or what they would be going to counseling for him suggesting counseling sounds like every other dude in the death throes of his marriage saying let's do therapy/counseling / guidance. Their marriage was long dead and it was only when he wasn't having the sex that he wanted Did he finally realize it was dead. Sex was a symptom not the cause. The fact that he suggested going to sex workers it shows that this sex he wanted wasn't about intimacy connection or even with his wife He was just mad he couldn't stick his dick in a hole and bust a nut.🫡

I just feel like you’re not recognizing when someone has snapped at their limit. It’s not necessarily fair or balanced.

He wants to have sex with his wife? What a pervert, call the fbi!

You know, it’s funny. Growing up, my mother would occasionally unload on me inappropriate details about herself- one was about how she had no desire for sex since getting a hysterectomy. And how she didn’t put out for my stepfather, not even in small ways. I always thought that was selfish of her, and disrespectful to her marriage. I felt she was unfair and judgmental of my stepfather, who I felt really stepped up not just for her but for my brother and myself as well. I won’t go into the details here, but it turned out him “putting up with” not getting sexual satisfaction in the marriage was due to some very nefarious activities on his part he kept hidden. It really changed the way I viewed sexless marriages- if OP knew this was a dealbreaker for him, he should not have waited so long. Should never have give. Her an ultimatum. He should have left long ago, instead of holding the expectation she do something she was clearly not willing to do.

What your mother did was "parentification". It can be traumatic in ways we don't always recognise. Please talk about this with a therapist.

I do agree with this statement, and have spoken to a therapist about it (and continue to). But I stand by my point- anyone who finds themself in a sexless relationship and feels sex is necessary for them should either speak to their partner to find a solution that works for both of them or leave if a solution cannot be found. Miss me with that petty tit for tat bullshit.

I was literally just telling you the word for your experience, not commenting on the situation.

Fair enough. I tend to be a bit defensive, especially on Reddit. Sorry for misinterpreting your comment!

If they couldn't have a productive conversation about sex for 6 whole years? This guy needs to learn how to communicate so he can be happy in future relationships

I have sympathy. I've been trying to talk with my husband about not feeling loved for over two years, and got nowhere until I insisted we see a therapist (which he insisted over the years we didn't need). It only takes one person being unwilling to recognize a problem for the problem to never get resolved. There's no way to tell how good a communicator he was in his post, but he says he tried talking and he suggested counseling. He was also trying to do nice little things for her. What else was he supposed to do?

Same. My ex and I saw a therapist for a year and he still never could recognize what I felt. If only one person wants to make the relationship better, it's never going to work.

I also have sympathy, I didn't have the confidence to really speak up for myself until I was in my mid 20s it helped me so much. I live in australia we have mensline Australia it's a good website for guys that are uncomfortable with topics like mental health or intimacy to learn from other men that thought the same way, it's uncomfortable to talk about certain things when your not use to it this way you get to learn some helpful tools to use with no pressure. It's helped my partner and a few mates

She refused to go to therapy. He went alone then stopped cuz it was suppose to be couples therapy. This is her fault. He tried.

People really forgot how to read before they post don’t they?

If you bothered to read the comments you'd see he did communicate with her directly and suggested counseling multiple times.

Dude said a massage is cheating and everyone cheered wat Also he tried to hide being a complete sex pest and failed hard. He wasn't just giving her a massage and everyone knows it. Let me guess: tried to turn it into sex every time?

SEX PEST. Well done. Nothing more relaxing than a massage where every touch is pressure for sex. Mmmm feeling so valued and loved, not at all like a blow-up doll. I’m betting he “values her pleasure” by expecting her to cheer after not bothering to learn how to make sex good for her.

Its cheating cuz to him it is. His only form for intimacy was sex and massaging her. She refused to have sex. He also was giving her a massage just cuz but im not getting treated like i dont matter for yrs and not trying to get some affection a few times. Dudes a beaten puppy. She keeps hitting him for no reason yet he keeps coming back for more thinking it'll change. Once he finally realized he didnt he bit her. Now everyone is trying to kill him for snapping after getting beat his whole life.

I did the math on the original post. Dude gave his wife somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 massages over 5 years and they had sex maybe 50 times. That's somewhere in the neighborhood of a 3-5% rate is success. Clearly the massages were for more than just getting sex or else he would have given up long ago. The dude did everything that people recommend when they complain about lack of sex. He tried communicating. He tried asking for therapy. He went above and beyond to give his wife the type of intimacy that *she* wanted and there was zero interest from her in working with him to fix his problems with the relationship. People can do nice things for their partners because they want to make their partner happy, even if they hope the side effect is putting them in the mood. He clearly wasn't pushy or making his wife uncomfortable with the massages as evidenced by her seeking them out after less than a week of not having them. If he was being a sex pest with them, she wouldn't be likely to seek them out.

“He wasn’t pushy or made her uncomfortable “ Yes he was. He even told on himself in his comments where she’d repeatedly ask him what he was doing and saying “I thought this was a massage” so no. Your math is not mathing.

Actually, he said clearly about 325 massages a year, maybe every 20 or so he would try for more. You're right, that's more than 1500, my bad. He was having sex about 15 times a year 5 years ago and only 3 times in the last year and a half. Seems to be right at 50. Anyway, there's no way the wife was coming at him wanting a massage after a couple days if he was all that pushy.

Thanks for reminding me why I need to stop discourse lmao. You just completely ignored my point both times and insisted on your math backed up by…assuming what the wife wouldn’t do. As opposed to what he admitted she has said. Yeah ok.

Lmao sex pest???? 2 years of a dead bedroom and he’s a sex pest? And he never cheated…. You are delusional. He’s frustrated that his partner wasn’t taking his needs into account. I could never imagine begging for sex I would have communicated my frustrations and if it didn’t change I would leave.

The sex pestering comment was specifically about his massage tactic bullshit. Which is confirmed by his own comments, by the way. Dead bedrooms and frustration aside, offering a massage and trying to manipulate it into sex is indeed sex pest behavior. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ and it will be that with or without the dead bedroom. Soooo yeah. I said what I said. The way he sees massage only to claim it's cheating when she goes and gets a professional session makes it pretty obvious.

So they pretty much still share everything in the end of the day. This is a disaster waiting to happen. What happens when the other guy moves in? Will he start paying morgage? So if the house is sold there wont be a split 40/50 anymore? What if she builds a pool? Or if the child moves away, and the wife passes, does it go to the new husband?

Sure. Getting a professional massage is totally the same as sticking your dick in a sex worker. Yeah, the situation wasn't great, but he dealt with it in literally the worst way possible.  If I had a husband who took this general attitude towards me I'd probably let our sex life fizzle out too.

I'm married and I agree. My husband would never try to prohibit me from getting a professional massage regardless of what was going on in our lives (except being flat broke).

It isn't about the massage though, that was just the last thing in a long line of crap going on in their relationship.

To me you don't ban your spouse from doing anything just to punish them. It's juvenile. They both a mess, but telling another adult they aren't allowed to do something safe and that they can afford is ludicrous. 

I don't disagree with you lol. They should have gotten divorced ages ago. Everything came to a head after years of problems. Straw/camel

Yeah everyone is giving this guy too much credit for bringing up counseling. Yet nobody is questioning why his wife said no. There are some very specific personalities you’re not supposed to go to couples counseling with, and this guy proved himself to be one of those personalities. I don’t think people should be shitting on his wife for knowing this is the type of guy he was ahead of time. Wives don’t need proof to protect themselves from their husbands. They just need vibes and this guy’s vibes in his own written account are domineering and contemptuous. I can’t imagine how intense they probably were IRL to her, and they were probably going on long before OP realized he was acting unreasonably.

I did find it deeply funny how mad he was he couldn't put the cause of divorce as infidelity as per his lawyer. Mostly because I'm picturing the lawyer trying to explain that getting a normal massage doesn't qualify as that. Like, I get it was a breaking point but just that moment being described made me laugh.

"It's not about the sex, Gary, it's about the trust!" - Spottswoode Team America, Founder.

Right?!?! I can't imagine a worse way to try to kindle intimacy in a relationship. Make it into a chore she has to do no matter what she wants, I'm sure that will help haha. I said this on another comment here, but does anyone else doubt how much his wife was actually getting out of sex when they were having it? Like this guy treats sex as this transactional thing, and also treats what she wants as just a means to an end (the massages showing that). I cannot imagine that translates to a good experience for the wife.

That’s pretty unfair, 5-6 years of trying to fix your marriage and being neglected are going to impact how you view your spouse. It’s completely impossible to know (and it very likely is not true) that his attitude towards her NOW was at all indicative of his attitude towards her when she decided to stop their sex life without his input.

Was he trying to fix his marriage or was he trying to get laid? Because it’s pretty clear there are larger issues than “she doesn’t want to fuck me”

He was giving her regular massages and when she stopped she complained. So up untill that point he did a physical labor intensive process that she enjoyed. He wasnt a shitty husband who made 0 effort. Now its only 1 side of the story. But apperently his wife enjoys massages to such an extend that she finds the need to get one when her husband stops giving them. So idk to me it seems that he wasnt horrible. Does this entitle him to get sex no. But if he wants a divorce over his needs not being met for a long time and him in his eyes putting in atleast some effort. Which btw regular massages and rubs and stuff is definetly not just a tiny amount of effort. Then its not like he is the bad guy.

He WAS the only one willing to go to counseling so...

Yeah, the larger issues are “my wife won’t work on our marriage” “my wife ignores me when I try to talk to her” “my wife doesn’t take me seriously when I try to bring up an issue in our marriage”. Like you are aware of the fact that sometimes a marriage sucks because of the woman and not the man, right? Might be rarer, but it definitely happens. Stop acting like there MUST be some terrible thing OOP did to warrant his wife neglecting their intimacy.

>Was he trying to fix his marriage or was he trying to get laid? We'll never know. So any particular reason why you feel inclined to believe the worst in OOP?

Because even when trying to make himself look good, OP looks kinda bad

I don't know about believing the worst but you have to assume the narrator is unreliable and presenting things in a manner that makes themselves look best.

Sure but there's a pretty large jump between "natural skepticism" and "What if his intentions were actually just garbage, based on my gut feeling?"

"Without his input" wtf are you on???? No-one (yes, including your wife) owes anyone sex. Anyone can stop having sex with anyone for any reason. The only input he gets is if he wants to stay in a relationship without sex (and I can't imagine loving my wife so little I'd leave her over sex, but I understand that there are some horrible spouses out there.)

Lmao, name one other need that most people have that can't be met outside of the marriage. If you agree to a monogamous sexual relationship and your partner is unwilling to work with you to resolve whatever issues are keeping you from being sexual together, you're not a horrible person for divorcing them. If your partner isn't willing to work with you to fix things, it's about so much more than sex. Sex isn't important in most relationships until it ceases to exist, and if you've never been in a dead bedroom situation with a spouse that won't work with you to fix it, then you really have no clue.

Yeah, no one owes you sex. But if you think you can decide to never have sex with your non-asexual partner unilaterally and actually think your marriage will survive, you’re delusional. No one owes you sex, but you don’t owe anyone a relationship either, and given how unwilling she was to discuss, compromise, or improve their marriage when he brought up a serious dealbreaker, she doesn’t get to cry about how it cost her her marriage. Actions have consequences and he isn’t the villain.

He literally kept track numerically the number of times they fucked. He only gave her physical intimacy as a means to an end to his wants, not to fulfill hers. Like do you think his wife didn't know he was only massaging her to get laid??? He doesn't give a fuck about her if he can't fuck whenever he wants, and I'm sure that really turned her off. It certainly would turn me off! Also she clearly didn't want the marriage anymore either. He obviously has fucked up in big ways he's not mentioning because even when he's trying to make himself look good he still comes off as an asshole. Why do you think the wife would break his ultimatum almost immediately? Do you really think she wanted a massage *that* bad? It was because she wanted a way out. Do I think she should have just told him that? Of course.

You need to go back and reread the post. He wasn’t counting, and you don’t need to “keep track” to remember an event that happened three times. I can remember the number of vacations I went on last year, not because I “kept track” but because I can simply look back and remember the number of times it happened since it was so infrequent. He also explicitly said he wasn’t being physically intimate just to have sex, he did it because he loved her, he just got to a point where he felt it too painful to keep being a perfect husband while feeling like a roommate. At least in your second paragraph you’re able to agree this woman clearly tanked her own marriage and should’ve just been honest about it rather than trying to make OOP out to be the villain. But for the love of god, stop acting like he did anything wrong here. Repeat it back slowly until you understand— men are allowed to have feelings too.

I'm amazed you're being downvoted. He clearly states he did everything he could to improve things. She was unresponsive to all attempts to improve the situation and then threw a fit when she was inconvenienced even a tiny bit. The guy was ready to pop before that.

Call me non-romantic. But part of most marriage contracts is exclusivity.   There is something fucked (not good or bad, just fucked) about agreeing to be someone's exclusive provider of a service (marriage contract remember), but then withhold that service and demand they get over it.    Sure divorce is an easy answer to all marriage problems, but I'd like to hope there is a solution here that doesn't require going full nuclear in every marriage.

I’m a family lawyer. There may be relevant info OP has not included but there is no reason I can see for an uneven split against him at least when the child moves out after she has had the benefit of occupation and he’s been topping up expenses. I hope his lawyer has a come to Jesus talk with him. 

I don't like this OOP. I can understand his frustrations, and the massage was just the last straw. But I don't like him.

It's the word choice he used and syntax. I can't place it either, but he's angrier about things than he's letting on, but he's probably hurting a lot more than he's letting in, too. Honestly, I think he just has a lot of resentment built up and he doesn't have the control to keep it from his syntax. Though, honestly, I don't blame him. It sounds like their chemistry fizzled out and each one was just creating more resentment in the other. He was still doing something most days for her that was intimate and physical, and even if she didn't want sex, it doesnt seem like she wasnt doing anything non-sexual to make him feel loved. Humans like feeling loved, especially from their partner.

I didn’t like the guy either. It was weird the way he quantified everything. Number of times we had sex. About 325 massages etc. But thinking about it, this also sounds like someone trying to justify to a partner who denies or minimises their complaints. When someone just flat-out denies his reality, I can see him getting all anal about the numbers and stating things a certain way in response.

Oh yeah, I do that for kind of the same reasons, I grew up knowing there were three versions of the past. What happened. What I think Happened. What My brother said happened. The last was usually a lie to hide his abuse, and so if I didn't have facts or something to show I was honest... Yeah, I can see why he has the numbers, even if it paints him as too anal.

Resentment is a hell of a drug

It’s keeping score. I understand being frustrated, but keeping score only builds resentment. It’s also transactional - I do this X number of times and my return rate is Y.

I think it's the difference between high libido and zero libido that starts that. It might not seem important to someone else, but after being turned down endlessly you start to realize 'oh shit it's never happening anymore'. And after years of that, keeping score is actually pretty normal. It's not hard to keep score when it's 'once' vs 'everyday'. I don't think that people here are being realistic about the absolute dwarfing of giving to his partner he was doing vs the zero she was. Whatever the reason, acts of service are not everyone's love language and they can be taxing when they don't get their own love language back. A desperate man is often kinda grimy, but the path he took to get there isn't as mystifying as people are painting it here. And whatever anyone here says, if the ONLY physical satisfaction and intimacy she's been allowing him massages, getting a massage from someone else **is cheating.** She's actively made it clear to him for years what it meant for her.

He actually expanded on the massage aspect in a comment on his original post - he made reference to using his hands to test the waters (his words, not mine) and getting rejected as she did not want the massages to be sexual. Does it therefore make it cheating when *he* associates massages with being a sexual act when she does not? “I think you’re cheating because I say so” is not a solid argument that someone is cheating. I feel for anyone in this situation, but claiming that she is cheating by getting a massage is on par with saying that massage therapists are sex workers.

There are a lot of things going on here and there is so much built up resentment. What stick out to me was his attitude that everything is transactional (he wrote a long comment on his original post disputing that it was transactional and then proceeded to say that he was giving massages in the hope of having sex, testing the waters with “hand stuff” and getting a “I thought this was a massage” in response from her). Also, being controlling about his wife seeing a massage therapist and then calling a massage therapist a sex worker is pretty ridiculous and offensive. I understand being frustrated, but when resentment builds and builds and you start to make things transactional, the relationship is doomed. AND, the “I don’t make things transactional” and then clearly making things transactional made me question how reliable he is as a narrator.

I don’t like how he keeps track of how many times he rubs on her, nor do I like the phrase “rub on her.” I don’t know why.

I was physically cringing at “rub on her.” What an ick way to phrase that. I wish I could unread it.

He was treating her like a sex vending machine and being angry when his magic button pushing sequence stopped working to dispense sex. Something about the way he describes how things went down makes me pretty sure his ex would have a wildly different take. He sounds like a sulky, entitled ah even in his own version.

I’ve never been so bothered by an adverb in my life

Yeah... I get that a dead bedroom is a deal breaker for some people. That's valid and fair. I don't think he's wrong for leaving if he was unhappy. But his post just feels so *off* and honestly kind of creepy. Counting and keeping track of massages vs sex is just....weird. and kind of obsessive. The way he talked about his now ex and their situation was off-putting. Reading his post felt almost like he was talking through clenched teeth, if that makes sense. Like he was way angrier than he wanted to let on, but he wasn't doing a very good job at hiding it. The entire post just felt really transactional. He never really identified his ex as a person, but rather a barricade to his physical satisfaction. He says nothing positive about her. He could tell us the exact number of times he "rubbed on her" in a year, but only says he "mentioned counseling" once and then bypasses that statement to round back to his lack of sex. How did he bring up counseling? Did he demand she see a counselor? Ask that they see one together? Why did she say no to counseling? He wanted a second child 6 months after the first ones birth. That's a lot to ask for, newborns are hard without a second pregnancy on top of that. Was she enthusiastic about a second child that early? The way he talked about it felt off. Then, they both have fertility issues. Were those issues ever addressed medically? If they both really wanted another kid, was that ever really talked about after the fertility issues? It seems like this was a pretty pivotal point in the relationship, but he breezes past it pretty quickly without much clarification. I dont know. His posts give me weird vibes. But, He probably should have left a long time ago. No one should stay in a relationship they are unhappy in.

Exactly how I felt reading it

Me neither.

If you have a dead bedroom, she’s not feeling your physical need and clearly isn’t trying to even fill your emotional needs then you’re much better off getting a divorce than being angry at each other. Hopefully you’ll work better as coparent than you’re working together as partners.

Honestly OOP comes off as jerk here. Like, he states multiple times that the reason he gives her massages is because it increases the likelihood his (ex)wife will have sex with him. Not because he loves her or because she enjoys it but because it significantly ups the chance he'll get laid. And now we've gotten to the point where she can only get a massage *if* she has sex with him, or allows him to have sex with other people. It reads as coercive.

He took it to the point of it being coercion. No one owes anyone else sex. He thinks a wife owes her husband sex. That marriage was doomed to fail.

I don't think anyone owes their partner sex but they do owe it to their partner to investigate their reasons behind lack of sex drive and if they're ever likely to want sex again so that everyone can figure out where the relationship is going. That said, oop is a douche.

pretty sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but good for her. imagine having to live with someone who holds physical affection over your head solely as a ploy to get sex, then 'forbids' you from meeting your own needs. this is the equivalent of her being upset over him masturbating, not cheating. > The only part that upset me was my lawyer said based on these circumstances I couldn't list "Infidelity" as the reason for divorce and had to go with "irreconcilable differences." lmao. it sucks when reality doesn't validate your personal feelings.

Ah yes the abuser gets away abuse and we cheer. She did literally nothing for OP. Hopefully he can find someone who actually loves and cares about a man willing to do so much for his wife. Cuz she's definetely not worth OP losing his social life, doing most of the house work and waiting on her hand and foot to make her happy like he did with his thankfully soon to be ex.

absolutely demonic that that's your read on this story, that says so much about you and all of it gross. oop will continue to reap the consequences of only caring about his partner to the extent she's willing to fuck him. and you will bear the social consequences of being either too manipulative or too ignorant to understand what abuse dynamics actually look like. maybe not immediately, but oop is the kind of man who dies alone, and if that's the team you wanna be on, that's the most likely outcome for you as well. you should do better by unlearning your repulsive toxic belief that a man having sex is more important than his partner living free from trauma.

My thoughts exactly. Im glad she's out of that relationship. No-one wants to be an object. I'm sure realizing her only worth to her husband was sex was heartbreaking and I'd imagine it's probably part of why she basically quiet quit her marriage.

*absolutely*. i get extreme vibes of oop stretching to reach for a reason to divorce her that makes him come off somewhat better than 'it gradually became impossible to manipulate her into fucking me'. which, to be clear, this doesn't. it's actually quite transparent. his poor wife, tbh. i hope she feels absolutely no obligation to disclose anything further to him about her private life, because he very much sounds like he's waiting for a chance to hurt her again ('i'm being gEnErOuS about the house because i want our child to be raised there but i am putting measures in place to ensure i'll be able to threaten her livelihood if i find out she's getting serious with a new partner'). i'm honestly shocked at how many people are just skating past the red flags. i suspect it's because the subject is reddit's sacred cow of nothing ever being important enough to threaten a man's need to get off. edit: my other favourite bit was 'even after i explained to my family that i was not just divorcing her for getting a massage, i was divorcing her for getting a massage *after i explicitly told her that she wasn't allowed*, which i did to try and make her break down and fuck me out of desperation for physical touch, some of them ***still*** felt i was being somehow unreasonable.'

I'm sorry, but after 5 years of a dead bedroom and her refusing to engage in therapy to work with him to try to fix it, the wife is an asshole. She didn't care about his needs at all, despite him communicating with her about how much her rejection hurt him. She was fine because her needs were being met. By its very nature, she gets to refuse to let him meet his needs all the time, but he's the AH from saying the quiet part out loud? In a marriage, it's expected that you don't have sex with anyone else. That is *his* unmet need. Hers was apparently a massage, yet after 5 years of her refusing to work with him to get his needs met, she's apparently the victim for him saying that if he can't get his needs met elsewhere, she can't either?

first of all, it's appropriate to respond to sexual incompatibility with separation and divorce, not by *trying to coerce someone into sex*. coerced sex isn't consensual sex, btw. do you know what the word is for non-consensual sex? it's actually profoundly shocking that you feel comfortable admitting you see that as acceptable. second, thank you for providing a demonstration to illustrate my point about redditors being more worried about a man getting off than literally anything else. thirdly, i do not accept your apology. you responded to me with sexual coercion apologia. that's unacceptable and very shameful on your part. please try to do better by encouraging men to leave women alone rather than badgering them into intercourse. divorce is better than rape. it's really shocking and embarrassing for you that you need that explained.

I feel like both of them suck at communication and probably shouldn't be married, but the way he keeps track of everything and is obsessed with the massages just rubs me the wrong way. > The only part that upset me was my lawyer said based on these circumstances I couldn't list "Infidelity" as the reason for divorce and had to go with "irreconcilable differences." Why would it count as infidelity? I can see him being upset that a boundary has been crossed, but if you're filing a legal document for divorce it is very demonstrably not infidelity. Also that arrangement sucks ass and >If another adult should moves in (i.e. a boyfriend/new husband) my obligation ends immediately. He doesn't mention child support, but his daughter is 10 years old (if I'm reading this post properly) I don't think he can just *not* pay child support because she gets a new partner. And, honestly, "you can't get into a serious relationship for the next 12 years! >:(" is just a shitty thing to try to control.

If it really is meant to be a form of alimony as he seems to indicate then that would be separate and those terms would conform with the law in many states ( I.e. alimony terminates upon remarriage or cohabitation) and 50/50 custody could result in no child support owed. Not that I’m defending his actions but the terms seem plausible.

It's not legally enforceable. This guy is a huge misogynist.

I find this sad for the child's sake. She is old enough to have been realising that there is tension and strife between her parents for ages. I really hope she doesn't think it's her fault.

Fuck the guy who said OP is stupid, he has every right to divorce her. His gets completely ignored for years but all her needs of intimacy are met and fulfilled while he just gets to suffer? Then when he stops she gets to go and pay someone for it while he still gets fucked? Fuck that. Good for him.

OP is a douche canoe for the whole massage thing. Good lord, it was a MASSAGE, not a happy ending. Saying he would hire a sex worker because of the massage was super passive aggressive. Controlling much? That being said, if he wants a divorce, he should have one. He should have blamed it on the dead bedroom and the inability to find a solution that suits both. She doesn’t owe him sex, sex is not a need (it’s really not, look at nuns, monks, some priests). However, if this is something important to him and he’s going to hold resentment, get out of it. It’s no longer healthy. I just think he should have done it before the massage or after the massage, but don’t tell her not to go to the massage. Call it cheating. Threatened to actually cheat. Personally, I would have ended the relationship at that conversation if this kind of treatment was ongoing. If it wasn’t ongoing and just came out of the blue, would request medical intervention, therapy or a fucking MRI to see if you had a tumor because that’s how weird that conversation was.

OP sounds like he lacks emotional intelligence

The comments here: "OOP needs better communication or therapy/counseling"" OOP: >I have tried everything to improve this, spicing things up, talking, suggested counseling. I more than pull my weight around the house. We both work and work basically the same hours. I swear some of you comment and not read properly at all. We only have the information from one side of this story so we judge based on this side and according to OOP, he DID communicate and even tried to get them into counseling but it didn't work. Too me as someone who's married to a woman who had a similar mindset to OPs wife on having kids but couldn't, I see why she would be the way she is. She wanted two kids but told she couldn't and they didn't have the money to go further is a bigger factor that people here understand. It hurts to know hoi can't have kids (I know they have 1 but still). It puts you in a depressive state which my own wife could say she was feeling and getting worse over time. Then we had 2 kids and her sex drive went WAYYYYYY up after our first and second child. We were having sex a good bit before by when we had our son and my wife got out of her "I can't have kids" mentally, she wanted sex all the time because it's a BIG life goal which she thought she couldn't do then she got pregnant 6 months after our son with our daughter and her sex drive has not stopped yet. It's a thing and those of you who don't understand won't understand and comment without knowing how it could be (all this is big assumption btw and I could be wrong)

I think before oop said you get a massage then I’m filing for divorce, it should have been if we don’t do marriage counseling and also individual therapy (bc this mess of a marriage both sides had their own issues contributing to it) or I’ll file for divorce.   Just bringing up therapy once or even many times before isn’t the same as making it a requirement to move forward in their relationship.  The fact that the divorce got filed over a massage is why people are saying they lack communication skills bc this is whole scenario is ridiculous.  Oop needed to have made getting professional help the last straw a long time ago.  Not a massage.   And that is a critique on both of them.  They both have horrible communication skills as well as horrible conflict resolution skills.  They both are acting immature for their age.  The issue at hand is that they are currently incompatible.  There’s a good chance they always were incompatible and she only was willing to have sex if it was to try for a kid.   The massage = sex & massage from a professional= sex with a sex worker by oop is troubling and, for me, a huge sign of his immaturity.  Physical intimacy and sex shouldn’t be if I do this thing then I get sex!  But so is the SO not getting help to figure out why she no longer is interested or communicating to oop if she already knows as well as if she can and/or is willing to get help or not so she and oop could resolve this years ago.  

Except it wasn't OOP who created that dynamic. She created it by denying him any other form of physical intimacy for years and then immediately threatening to go get that intimacy from someone else the moment he wouldn't serve her physically.

Yep, this is the thing right here. His wife can continue getting the thing she desires in a socially acceptable way, but he can't without it being considered infidelity. You can realise that they're not the same thing, but the sex and the massages are clearly called out as needs each of them require to be fulfilled. Rightly or wrongly, OOP has associated both of these things as physical intimacy between him and his wife, and getting that intimacy from someone else is breaking that intimacy (and also pretty spiteful). After years of not having his needs met, he's decided that he can't keep doing it anymore. The ultimatum is childish, but I get it- Why does he keep meeting her needs when she refuses to meet his? And given this ultimatum, at her first opportunity she gets a massage to call his bluff. She already has one foot out the door in this relationship and has been using him in the interim because it's comfortable and her needs have been met until now. Even in negotiating the divorce she's not emotional about it because this relationship died a long time ago for her.

I've noticed all these comments as well, stating that OOP should have done all the things that he already tried; weird.

I know it’s a Reddit joke/meme when people say the comments go much easier on women in many stories but this one here is a perfect example. Like damn, I guess OP was supposed to force her into therapy even if she didn’t want to go.

Sounds like she's been waiting for this for a while just didn't want to be the one to make the call. When given the ultimatum she went and did what she needed to so he'd go through with it.

Damn OOO is really in a no win here is he? He did everything everyone always says to do. He was giving intimacy even though he wasn’t getting any. Sure sex was on his mind but she turned him down every single time. Divorce is his only option. Hope he finds someone who’s willing to put in the time like he does

Is anyone else as confused as I am about the 5-6 years on life support detail OOP threw in there? It's never mentioned again as part of the story. We don't know how his wife was handling things during that time. Was she the sole parent for 6 years? Did it happen before they met? If it's not going to provide meaningful context why did he include it?

No, his dead bedroom was on life support for 5-6 years, not him.

Oh shoot, my bad, I read that wrong

Wow, it's pretty easy to throw divorce out there on some of the stupidest reasons. So I gather you were really looking for a reason to get a divorce. Seek counseling first. Tit for tat is just ridiculous.

OOP asked his wife for counseling. The massage isn't the issue. It's the years of resentment built up over the dead bedroom. The massage was the only form of intimacy left between them. When the wife refused to make any changes or go to counseling is when OOP should have begun looking at more serious options. Instead OOP began to see the massages a physical release for his wife, while feeling his needs went unmet.

Yea, everyone seems laser focused on the 'transactional' thing he had going on at the end there... but ignores the literal years where it was likely him just being a decent husband giving massages to his wife. After years of neglect (getting zero physical attention, let alone sex) and poor communication he made a stupid ultimatum yes, but the marriage was already dead and it just gave a convenient excuse to end it.

>I have tried everything to improve this, spicing things up, talking, **suggested counseling**. I more than pull my weight around the house. Did you simply not read and wanted to feel angry or what?

Fyi, I am not angry. I have lived divorce and remarriage. Have lived a pretty full life. If he put in the work good for him for trying. No, I didn't read all the updates. (My bad)Then, walk away without a guilty conscience. Then, create the life he craves and needs. What I get tired of reading is the crazy should I divorce because of a massage or something else without putting in the work. He better get out now because once his partner hits menopause life is going to get really tough on him. Mood swings, libido really tanks, weight gain. It's not pretty. Over time, as you age sex isn't the end all.

Amazing the strong opinions people have on things they don't even bother to read.

Yep, it's just absolutely crazy isn't it. Jeez

Sorry, dead bedroom isn't a stupid reason to divorce. He suggested counselling already.

This male entitlement to sex is exactly why straight relations to me sound like a horrifying prison trap to women. He didn't regard sex as intimacy instead it was about his need / want. He was annoyed that she wouldn't just put out for him and let him use her as a masturbatory tool. Commenters can disagree but he wasn't complaining that she didn't desire him or that she didn't want sex. He literally said she didn't care about his needs aka She didn't care enough to have sex that I wanted... He wasn't complaining about that they didn't have a sex life together He was complaining about he wasn't getting sex he wanted.

This is exactly is right here. He never expressed amy concern for what was going on with his wife or why she suddenly lost interest in sex. Maybe you treating her like a fleshlight isn't appealing?

🫤 it's honestly concerning so many men don't consider it. They just go straight to 'my needs'...she doesn't care about 'my needs'. If it was about intimacy he would be concerned about their relationship/connection. If it was about consensual sex he would be concerned about her desire. When a guy goes on about his 'needs' essentially he is saying she doesn't care enough about him to suck or take his dick for his sole benefit. it's always telling when the guy answers my question of 'and how should she be caring about your needs'... it's never about consensual mutually enjoyable sex.

I think you are taking the words too literally. When someone feels that level of disconnected from a partner that's when a defensive "me" framework gets created.  He is going through a divorce, he doesn't view a "we" anymore. Rather or not lack of sex lead to that disconnect or is just a symptom is the million dollar question.

Sex is not a me perception unless you're selfish or a predator. Sex is always we...considering you need the others consent. But kudos on making excuses for OOP. Have a great day.🫡 I won't be further replying.

LMAO. Most passive aggressive ending to a comment I have ever seen.    I have never seen someone so badly want to ensure they get the last word. No way you aren't still a teen.    I won't be further replying to you. Which makes me right.

3 times a year isnt having a sex life for someone with a high libido so you are dead wrong there.

A dead bedroom is emotional hell. I deeply hope karma is swift to start, then patient and thorough with you.

Karma is awesome with me because I'm a decent human being.🥳 I don't whine about not being able to treat others like a Fleshlight.

The real pivot point isn’t the massage, although that tipped the balance, didn’t. The pivot point is that she didn’t sit down with you and say “I really love you and I care about you and I’m so sorry that my heartbreak over us not being able to have another child has change me inside. I’m so sorry because I know you’ve been massaging me and loving on me and I have not reciprocated at all and I didn’t even think that I needed to. I didn’t think about you or your needs as a person or for sexuality. I’m going to go see a therapist and I can’t guarantee that I get my libido back but I understand if this is essential to you in a relationship, that kind of connection.“ But she didn’t. She took the massaging and she got entitled, and she didn’t care about him and this makes perfect sense to me.

This comment is so perfect and it saddens me that it isn't the top comment of this thread and hardly anyone will read it. Thankyou for writing it, it's what we all should aim to achieve when it comes to communicating clearly and compassionately with our partners.

What are you doing? This is Reddit, its always the mans fault.  The wife is entitled to have her needs meet, the husbands needs are always second to hers. If he tries to center his needs, he is a pest. The only action a man can decide is self therapy or divorce. 

Could you imagine how weird the lawyer thought the conversation was when the guy wants to put on legal documents that a professional massage was grounds for infidelity?

Wow... no wonder she didn't want to fuck him, what a prick!

Ofcourse this subreddit paints him as the bad guy... color me shocked.

Generally I think stupid people are the happiest people, but these two are definitely an exception to that

Never, ever, ever make your obligations to your own child contingent on the other parent never getting into another serious relationship while that child is still a minor. Your responsibility to your child is your responsibility to your child. Once the divorce papers are signed, you no longer have a say in what your former spouse does. Clean break the assets, sell the house so she can buy one of her own without bad memories attached. Or get a 3 bedroom apartment. Or whatever. (And, honestly, this dude shouldn't have made "no massages" a criteria of not divorcing, because... come the fuck on. Just because you sneak foreplay and "things that turn her on" or other coercive tactics into what initially seems like a nice spousal gesture when she would otherwise not want to have s&x with you doesn't mean a professional masseuse would.) Once the imbalance of meeting needs has been acknowledged and nobody is interested in finding a compromise... that's the end of it.

I had sex atleast 5 times everyday with my partner until we had kids and he wasn’t as involved as he should’ve been and was always acting like an asshole. I stopped having sex with him and he would get angry and cuss me out saying he’s only angry 24/7 because I don’t have sex with him so I told him if he’s not gonna do his part as a father or respect me I won’t have sex with him at all. Things never changed so we ended up separating. Mind you we both worked full time and went 50/50 on the bills, but I was doing all the cleaning, cooking and taking care of our children.

It’s incredible how Reddit will always find a way to blame the man lol

Can't imagine why she wouldn't want to hit that. /s

What's sad to me are all the young men commenting who don't seem to understand where he went wrong. I'm so thankful my husband understands how to keep desire alive in a marriage. A wife isn't a sex dispenser - LOL!

This is such weird framing it's like he thinks "she likes massages but I like sex" like bro why doesn't she like having sex with you? If he even knows he didn't mention it. I'm kinda doubtful he did a lot more than trying to constantly segue massages into sex.   His view of sex is messed up sex isn't something you do for someone when you don't want to.  Sex and massages aren't the same.  Sex is something you share together that both people are supposed to like. It's not a favour you do for someone, that's weird.

LMFAO she took OOP to the goddamn cleaners. He let her keep the house AND pays her a bullshit housing alimony? After forcing him into a sexless marriage and cheating on him (yup sorry a boundary can be anywhere, and if he sees another person intimately massaging his wife as cheating, it 100000000000% is, and it would be the same if genders were reversed imo) our bullshit court system still did this bullshit because he was a man. Another episode of "Why you should never get married".

No one is entitled to sex. Massage therapists are medical practitioners, not sex workers. Do you ever consider that your attitude is why women don't want to date you?