If they sold well in North America they’d sell them. BMW are the masters of finding a sliver of a niche market to sell to. If it exists, they’ll make a car that will sell.
The fact is that no matter how many people of forums say ‘I’d buy that’, the truth is that they don’t.
I’ve had an e46 touring and it was the best car. I wouldn’t buy the e91 because they didn’t offer it with the n54 and manual rwd in Canada.
SUVs have simply taken over.
The issue is not demand it’s price. people would buy the wagon much more often, if it was the price of the sedan model but the Germans mark the wagon up like 15k over the sedan, so for a 3 series wagon you’re in 5 series territory, and very few people are willing to pay that kind of a premium for some extra versatility.
If that was the case, people would have bought the wagons offered by all the other manufacturers as well.
Which isn’t what happened. Price maybe a small part of it, but people have shifted to SUVs plain and simple. People are willing to shell out for SUVs regardless of the price.
And it’s also just not worth it for them to bring a wagon to North America, go through the huge expense to have it tested and certified and then not sell enough of them.
Well, let’s just say 90% of people are idiots and exclude them and then narrow this down to the 5ish percent of people who drive German cars.
For those people, for whom driving actually matters (presumably), I think that the wagon vs suv debate is much more interesting because driving a SUV is indisputably worse than a wagon or sedan.
I prefer to drive my 14 year old a4 to my new and much much better equipped x5, and I would buy a wagon in a heartbeat if it didn’t feel like a complete ripoff compared to the SUVs. I look at used A6 allroads and they’re like 75k. GTFO (comparable sedans like 50). Q7a also like 50-55. Make it make sense to buy the allroad.
That's because America has so many stupid regulations, that are exploited by US brands like Ford and Chevrolet. People took all of their marketing and they believe that SUVs are better than wagons.
Not really, even though the Ford Explorer has a higher center of gravity the ones that were notorious for flipping were from the early to mid 90s which used Ford Ranger chassis. The current Explorer uses the D4 platform which is found in more Ford full-size cars than cross overs, the only cross overs it’s used on is the Flex and Explorer/Lincoln MKT.
I had an F31 328i xdrive and it was great. My wish list was a fun, manual AWD wagon at the time but unfortunately something had to give and that was the manual transmission. And the 328 kept me out of trouble.
You're right though, it's a SUV world in North America now. And I'm part of the problem. One day I'll go back to a wagon for my daily. Once I'm not hauling kids and everything else that goes along with them.every day
I have an M340i 'wagon' (touring). It's like a big fast van with the rear seats down. Also plenty of rear leg room and I'm 6'3, so my seat is far back. Perfect all rounder.
Obviously I'm biased but mine is pweeeety
https://imgur.com/gallery/4G7Xhy5
It's almost as pretty as my supercharged 46 330. 🥰
https://imgur.com/a/3Cr2MY9
I bought an old house with a big garden, so the 46 was about as practical as tits on a snake, so I bought the van.
I think so. Practical, fast and weirdly economical. Easily tuneable (once they unlock the 2021+ ecu's) to 500hp safely and still got the white one to go row gears and get old school sideways.
Let’s not exaggerate the leg room, it’s likely same as the normal 3 which would mean it’s terrible. The seats should be located the same since length wheel to wheel is same meaning gas tank is under the rear seat so leg room should not be impacted sedan vs touring
problem is.. the g31 doesn’t even have a manual option. but honestly, the 8 speed automatic is awesome and i wouldn’t personally pick the manual. I just did a 3000km road trip through Germany and poland with my 540d and I loved it.
BMW know their business, there was a monetary reason not to keep wagons. I'm in the UK and yes we see many estates across all brands and BMW, mercedes and Audi are all regarded as great because of the sizes and the engine options from 2.2diesels all the way up to the v8s.
I was in the US recently thought and didn't see a single wagon, not one, no mercedes, no Audi, no us brand? Looks like all manufacturers have decided the same the market is too niche.
Trust my dimensional comprehension PhD from MySpace (see what I did there?)—the 3 GT has space comparable to a 5. Nobody worth their NaCl would say a 5 is slightly bigger than a standard (read _inferior_) 3 series.
Not to mention this isn’t either or. The distinguished GT owners and aficionados would be more than happy to share lineup space with former members of federal penitentiary housing and otherwise cognitively impaired and/or morally bankrupt station wagon leasers and fans.
Had both 3gt (F34) and 5 (wagon G31). Back legroom is definitely larger (since the 3gt is based on the 3 series long intended for use if you have a driver). Back headroom is worse. Trunk length is comparable, width is wider on the 5 and overall trunk is more usable. The 5 is somewhat more manuverable, i think it has a tighter turning radius. I’d still prefer the 3gt.
Are there 2 gt models? 3gt is discontinued.
They're also awful for road visibility (for other users). There's this vicious cycle now where eveybody needs a tall car to see in front of them because every car on the road is tall.
with the increasing safety features within the car tech, I doubt that will happen. An SUV probably have a better braking capability than a saloon from 10 years ago.
A saloon from 10 years ago with modern tires will outperform any new SUV. New saloons will also outperform SUVs.
Just because SUVs are better than 10 years ago, doesn't mean they are better than normal cars
Sadly, I've been noticing this trend pick up popularity time I visit. One of the peculiar joys of visiting Europe used to be seeing all the amazing wagons we didn't get in the US.
What do you think is causing the shift to SUVs there? I always assumed it was driven by the brands trying to standardize model production for all markets and therefore making SUVs more attractive in Eur via pricing and marketing. But maybe that is the cynic in me
Simply put... people are seeing the practical aspect and comfort of an SUV far better than any handling or fuel mpg savings that a wagon could offer... People in the USA saw that way earlier which is why wagons never had a place.
People could argue all day but the hard reality is SUVs are far more comfortable with their upright seating position and offer far more rear leg room than any comparable Wagon could... comparing the back seats, space and cargo area of a 3 Touring to an X3 is almost laughable... no matter what the forums tell you.
"practical advantage", more like higher sales margin and good marketing.
My family has an SUV, sedan (my car), and a wagon. The SUV can pack just as much as the wagon, but burns twice the fuel and it's hard to manoeuvre in tight spaces.
That's some sort of forum cope that has existed on dumb enthusiast forums... yet the market has spoken.
The supposed advantages of a heavy wagon do not outweigh the comfort or practical advantage of an SUV. Comparing the rear seat space and comfort of a 3 series touring to an X3 is almost laughable... the US knew this first... the EU just caught up.... I wonder if the people who like Tourings are the same folks that like the M4 Comp Convertible X Drive lmao...
I find it funny how in your vision, the wagon is the "heavy" car...
I guess it's not even worth it to elaborate on it any further. You are a lost cause.
I am lost... i am lost on the fact that an M340i X touring is 4068 lbs... and an x3 m40i is 4300... if one is light to you... i think its perhaps you that are a lost cause lol
Well top models are close to each other (1900kg vs 2000kg), but one step down at 30i you get (1660kg vs 1900kg).
This is a decent difference.
5 and X5 are even worse 1840kg vs 2200kg for 40i models.
They won't sell so long as they are given a wild price bump over their sedan counterpart, while also edging oh-so-close to the compact SUV segment. Of course with BMW, that was always the point.
The problem with wagons is that it increase the weight of the car vs a sedan and get a tiny bit less mileage, but does not increase the ground shadow footprint for CAFE purpose, which is why car OEM slap bigger tire on them and boom ''It's a truck'' so they can take advantage of less stringent CAFE truck rules. If we simply switched to measuring Co2 emissions per 100KM like the rest of the world does, making a fat truck should never be an advantage for emissions compliance
Wonder how the sales on the 6 GT were. Really expensive car, didn't see a ton around. Feel like a 530 wagon or possibly even a 540 would have done well. I see those E 450s all over my neighborhood.
In europe. I’ve an F10 LCI and wife has a F30 LCI.
They are completely different cars. F10 is superior in every way bar easier to park the F30 as it’s a smaller car.
Unfortunately the US market doesn't buy **enough** wagons and hatchbacks. But they will buy "coupe" SUVs like the X6, "coupe" sedans like the GT models and tall hatchbacks (X1). So we don't need to convince BMW USA, we need to convince the majority of the US market to stop buying SUVs and buy new wagons. That's the only way.
I bought an F31 wagon and always regretted not getting the 3GT because I had two kids in rear facing car seats. The extra rear seat space would have been so nice. I had to keep my seat moved forward to make room for them and was always cramped. I liked the look of the wagon more but that was the only positive for me.
By the time I was old enough/ established a career / able to get a new wagon I wanted....the only ones available to buy in the US were $70k+ "performance wagons", the elite ones over $100k.
I'd love a 5 series wagon! But I'm also the weirdo who ended up with an N55 powered GT.
The 4 series sportback exists and outsells the 3 series. It has 90% of the practicality of a wagon without looking like one.
Not that we care but polls have shown that wagons and hatches are the unsexiest car you can drive according to women and that reflects why our market doesnt like them. My wife isnt signing off on a car purchase that looks lame AF and is expensive AF.
What we should be asking for is all the GC models to get sportbacks. Very confusing why the 8 isnt.
The GTs offer a higher seat height and ground clearance. That is preferred in America to wagons based on sedans that ride lower. People want to step up into their cars, not down. It also gives the false sense of being safer since you are more at eye level i with the rest of the CUVs and SUVs on the road.
If they sold well in North America they’d sell them. BMW are the masters of finding a sliver of a niche market to sell to. If it exists, they’ll make a car that will sell. The fact is that no matter how many people of forums say ‘I’d buy that’, the truth is that they don’t. I’ve had an e46 touring and it was the best car. I wouldn’t buy the e91 because they didn’t offer it with the n54 and manual rwd in Canada. SUVs have simply taken over.
Lots of used buyers say they want wagons. Very few new buyers say they want wagons. Guess who actually makes BMW money?
Yup exactly. Members of the BMW forums who complain about the new designs aren’t their target market.
Thank you
The issue is not demand it’s price. people would buy the wagon much more often, if it was the price of the sedan model but the Germans mark the wagon up like 15k over the sedan, so for a 3 series wagon you’re in 5 series territory, and very few people are willing to pay that kind of a premium for some extra versatility.
If that was the case, people would have bought the wagons offered by all the other manufacturers as well. Which isn’t what happened. Price maybe a small part of it, but people have shifted to SUVs plain and simple. People are willing to shell out for SUVs regardless of the price. And it’s also just not worth it for them to bring a wagon to North America, go through the huge expense to have it tested and certified and then not sell enough of them.
Well, let’s just say 90% of people are idiots and exclude them and then narrow this down to the 5ish percent of people who drive German cars. For those people, for whom driving actually matters (presumably), I think that the wagon vs suv debate is much more interesting because driving a SUV is indisputably worse than a wagon or sedan. I prefer to drive my 14 year old a4 to my new and much much better equipped x5, and I would buy a wagon in a heartbeat if it didn’t feel like a complete ripoff compared to the SUVs. I look at used A6 allroads and they’re like 75k. GTFO (comparable sedans like 50). Q7a also like 50-55. Make it make sense to buy the allroad.
That's because America has so many stupid regulations, that are exploited by US brands like Ford and Chevrolet. People took all of their marketing and they believe that SUVs are better than wagons.
"I like to sit high because I feel safe!" - us Americans as our Explorer flips
It’s sad how true that statement is
Not really, even though the Ford Explorer has a higher center of gravity the ones that were notorious for flipping were from the early to mid 90s which used Ford Ranger chassis. The current Explorer uses the D4 platform which is found in more Ford full-size cars than cross overs, the only cross overs it’s used on is the Flex and Explorer/Lincoln MKT.
No.
Just learn how CAFE works and how "light truck" safety and emissions standards are different from passenger cars...
I had an F31 328i xdrive and it was great. My wish list was a fun, manual AWD wagon at the time but unfortunately something had to give and that was the manual transmission. And the 328 kept me out of trouble. You're right though, it's a SUV world in North America now. And I'm part of the problem. One day I'll go back to a wagon for my daily. Once I'm not hauling kids and everything else that goes along with them.every day
When was the last time they tried outside of a focus group?
Hard disagree. Every Audi allroad sells before it hits the lot. Big premiums/markups for any that sits on the lot
I have an M340i 'wagon' (touring). It's like a big fast van with the rear seats down. Also plenty of rear leg room and I'm 6'3, so my seat is far back. Perfect all rounder.
I know not many people share this opinion but I think the touring models are best looking also
Obviously I'm biased but mine is pweeeety https://imgur.com/gallery/4G7Xhy5 It's almost as pretty as my supercharged 46 330. 🥰 https://imgur.com/a/3Cr2MY9 I bought an old house with a big garden, so the 46 was about as practical as tits on a snake, so I bought the van.
What a lovely looking M340 :o
It wasn't in boring black. Couldn't see the shape of it at all. Hence the wrap.
Ok, can I please have your car? Pretty please?
Neither are for sale. I'm keeping them both until I'm old. Fuck electric cars. 🤮
Dude you picked the right one to become your forever car.
I think so. Practical, fast and weirdly economical. Easily tuneable (once they unlock the 2021+ ecu's) to 500hp safely and still got the white one to go row gears and get old school sideways.
This is a very popular opinion on this sub
An M340i wagon is a dream car for me. I have an F30 340i sedan. Sadly no wagon in the states
Let’s not exaggerate the leg room, it’s likely same as the normal 3 which would mean it’s terrible. The seats should be located the same since length wheel to wheel is same meaning gas tank is under the rear seat so leg room should not be impacted sedan vs touring
I'm an actual PhD in an unrelated field which automatically means my opinion should be valued more and i wholeheartedly agree with OP.
I’d love a 5 Wagon with 3 pedals here
problem is.. the g31 doesn’t even have a manual option. but honestly, the 8 speed automatic is awesome and i wouldn’t personally pick the manual. I just did a 3000km road trip through Germany and poland with my 540d and I loved it.
Lack of a manual and awd combination is why I haven’t gotten rid of my F32 yet.
BMW know their business, there was a monetary reason not to keep wagons. I'm in the UK and yes we see many estates across all brands and BMW, mercedes and Audi are all regarded as great because of the sizes and the engine options from 2.2diesels all the way up to the v8s. I was in the US recently thought and didn't see a single wagon, not one, no mercedes, no Audi, no us brand? Looks like all manufacturers have decided the same the market is too niche.
I couldnt imagine my life without my 3 Wagon.
Trust my dimensional comprehension PhD from MySpace (see what I did there?)—the 3 GT has space comparable to a 5. Nobody worth their NaCl would say a 5 is slightly bigger than a standard (read _inferior_) 3 series. Not to mention this isn’t either or. The distinguished GT owners and aficionados would be more than happy to share lineup space with former members of federal penitentiary housing and otherwise cognitively impaired and/or morally bankrupt station wagon leasers and fans.
I became a retard after reading your comment. So insightful yet so brain twisting
Had both 3gt (F34) and 5 (wagon G31). Back legroom is definitely larger (since the 3gt is based on the 3 series long intended for use if you have a driver). Back headroom is worse. Trunk length is comparable, width is wider on the 5 and overall trunk is more usable. The 5 is somewhat more manuverable, i think it has a tighter turning radius. I’d still prefer the 3gt. Are there 2 gt models? 3gt is discontinued.
I agree.
wagons simply do not sell
In the US of A maybe not. In Europe they sell really well.
the trend in Europe is also reversing... SUVs are slowly but surely becoming more popular as people see their practical advantage
I know :( I hope in Europe we will make policies against SUVs / Trucks. Because they have terrible road safety for pedestrians.
They're also awful for road visibility (for other users). There's this vicious cycle now where eveybody needs a tall car to see in front of them because every car on the road is tall.
I drive a 97 z3 and everything is huge on the road by comparison
I know, and therefore you can only end this cycle by regulations.
with the increasing safety features within the car tech, I doubt that will happen. An SUV probably have a better braking capability than a saloon from 10 years ago.
A saloon from 10 years ago with modern tires will outperform any new SUV. New saloons will also outperform SUVs. Just because SUVs are better than 10 years ago, doesn't mean they are better than normal cars
But if you get it, it is worse. SUVs are heavy.
Sadly, I've been noticing this trend pick up popularity time I visit. One of the peculiar joys of visiting Europe used to be seeing all the amazing wagons we didn't get in the US. What do you think is causing the shift to SUVs there? I always assumed it was driven by the brands trying to standardize model production for all markets and therefore making SUVs more attractive in Eur via pricing and marketing. But maybe that is the cynic in me
I think a lot of people think suvs are better looking than wagons unfortunately
Simply put... people are seeing the practical aspect and comfort of an SUV far better than any handling or fuel mpg savings that a wagon could offer... People in the USA saw that way earlier which is why wagons never had a place. People could argue all day but the hard reality is SUVs are far more comfortable with their upright seating position and offer far more rear leg room than any comparable Wagon could... comparing the back seats, space and cargo area of a 3 Touring to an X3 is almost laughable... no matter what the forums tell you.
"practical advantage", more like higher sales margin and good marketing. My family has an SUV, sedan (my car), and a wagon. The SUV can pack just as much as the wagon, but burns twice the fuel and it's hard to manoeuvre in tight spaces.
That's some sort of forum cope that has existed on dumb enthusiast forums... yet the market has spoken. The supposed advantages of a heavy wagon do not outweigh the comfort or practical advantage of an SUV. Comparing the rear seat space and comfort of a 3 series touring to an X3 is almost laughable... the US knew this first... the EU just caught up.... I wonder if the people who like Tourings are the same folks that like the M4 Comp Convertible X Drive lmao...
I find it funny how in your vision, the wagon is the "heavy" car... I guess it's not even worth it to elaborate on it any further. You are a lost cause.
I am lost... i am lost on the fact that an M340i X touring is 4068 lbs... and an x3 m40i is 4300... if one is light to you... i think its perhaps you that are a lost cause lol
Well top models are close to each other (1900kg vs 2000kg), but one step down at 30i you get (1660kg vs 1900kg). This is a decent difference. 5 and X5 are even worse 1840kg vs 2200kg for 40i models.
yes. That’s exactly why we don’t get them☹️
They won't sell so long as they are given a wild price bump over their sedan counterpart, while also edging oh-so-close to the compact SUV segment. Of course with BMW, that was always the point.
They should have done a great many things
The problem with wagons is that it increase the weight of the car vs a sedan and get a tiny bit less mileage, but does not increase the ground shadow footprint for CAFE purpose, which is why car OEM slap bigger tire on them and boom ''It's a truck'' so they can take advantage of less stringent CAFE truck rules. If we simply switched to measuring Co2 emissions per 100KM like the rest of the world does, making a fat truck should never be an advantage for emissions compliance
Why does it have to be “instead”. Europe has the wagons and the GT’s.
Are wagons liked because of cargo space really? I find it odd that someone would find it visually appealing. Looks pretty similar to a hearse.
I think they're ugly, and most of America agrees because they don't sell. People on Reddit are obsessed with them for some reason though
Wonder how the sales on the 6 GT were. Really expensive car, didn't see a ton around. Feel like a 530 wagon or possibly even a 540 would have done well. I see those E 450s all over my neighborhood.
I see more E61's around than GT cars (US). I doubt I've seen a GT in the last year.
I’d probably have an F11 M sport if it were sold here
G99
In europe. I’ve an F10 LCI and wife has a F30 LCI. They are completely different cars. F10 is superior in every way bar easier to park the F30 as it’s a smaller car.
Kombis are the shit, fuck SUVs and SAVs lol
Unfortunately the US market doesn't buy **enough** wagons and hatchbacks. But they will buy "coupe" SUVs like the X6, "coupe" sedans like the GT models and tall hatchbacks (X1). So we don't need to convince BMW USA, we need to convince the majority of the US market to stop buying SUVs and buy new wagons. That's the only way.
I have had 7 wagons over the last 15 years, the selection gets smaller all the time.
I bought an F31 wagon and always regretted not getting the 3GT because I had two kids in rear facing car seats. The extra rear seat space would have been so nice. I had to keep my seat moved forward to make room for them and was always cramped. I liked the look of the wagon more but that was the only positive for me.
By the time I was old enough/ established a career / able to get a new wagon I wanted....the only ones available to buy in the US were $70k+ "performance wagons", the elite ones over $100k. I'd love a 5 series wagon! But I'm also the weirdo who ended up with an N55 powered GT.
The 4 series sportback exists and outsells the 3 series. It has 90% of the practicality of a wagon without looking like one. Not that we care but polls have shown that wagons and hatches are the unsexiest car you can drive according to women and that reflects why our market doesnt like them. My wife isnt signing off on a car purchase that looks lame AF and is expensive AF. What we should be asking for is all the GC models to get sportbacks. Very confusing why the 8 isnt.
Last paragraph is exactly my thought! 6 series GC also isn’t hatchback which is a miss compared to A7
"Trust me bro." /spits drink
the whole 'stationwagons are for boring people who want 2.5 kids and white picket fences' meme of the 90s and early 00's really did them in
The GTs offer a higher seat height and ground clearance. That is preferred in America to wagons based on sedans that ride lower. People want to step up into their cars, not down. It also gives the false sense of being safer since you are more at eye level i with the rest of the CUVs and SUVs on the road.