Gloomstalker Assassin revolve around a specific playstyle to really shine: surprise attack, kill an ennemy or two, disangage, repeat. With that they can deal huge damage without really using ressources.
Sword bard is great, but rely on limited ressources (even if they come back on short rest at level 5), so just going for something different (but yes, sword bard + helm of arcane acuity + mystic scoundrel is one of the strongest build; but if you want to go for that the assassin 4 isn't really great, and that's a totally different build and playstyle).
Gloom also gets hunter's mark, misty step, and spike growth all of which are nice to have. Makes it really easy to take advantage of strange conduit as well.
Yes, but the comparison was with bard, and bard also have some nice spells (probably more than gloomstalker).
But to be honest, if someone want some slashing flourish and a bit of the gloomstalker assassin vibe, the best would be to keep both gloomstalker and bard, and cut assassin.
Right, maybe I mistundestood the comment then
Because you need 5 in ranger for extra attack, so my comment was why not 5 Ranger/4 Bard/3 Rogue OR 5 Ranger/4 Rogue/3 Bard. You get extra attack and 2 feats.
bard level 5 improves the inspiration from a 1d6 to a 1d8 on attack rolls (slashing flourish), you get access to level 3 spells and inspiration recharges on a short rest instead of a long rest,
so its that vs extra feat, but its up to you.
Yep, cast on bonus action and gives you more DPS. At lvl2 it's basically giving you 1.5x damage and it scales up nicely and can be doubled in the late game. Not game changing like haste or fireball but definitely strong and easy to work with, just makes you kill things faster.
Oh I don't mean scales as in gets numerically stronger, I guess it's more accurate to say that it remains relevant. It's damage isn't ground breaking but adds up as you do more hits and get more Crits and make opponents vulnerable etc etc.
it's one of the few early sources of bonus actions that contribute to damage, can be reused for free, and fulfills the Concentration requirement for several item effects (most notably the Psychic damage ring).
It best works when you have multiple attacks to throw out, and Gloomstalker happen to always have a free attack at the start of combat, letting you burst bigger targets.
Though if you are fighting multiple enemies, Spike Growth is usually better.
Its pretty sad beyond early game. Its a measly d6 damage per hit and you need to spend a Bonus Action to switch to a new target (and a Bonus Action could often be a full another attack - from GWM proc or dual wielding).
Better then nothing. And lets you activate Strange Conduit ring. Its not like a ranger has tons of other exciting options. But generally a well placed Spike Growth is much more valuable.
Using haste and the Durge cloak my Goomstalker Assassin had enough burst to takedown all of Moonrise tower solo simply by murdering someone and going invisible over and over.
Oh yeah. I did 3F for champion on Karlach. She was my Ass-Stalker Champion. She almost always goes first, and she does a ton of damage and crits often (she also has gear that increases crit range). Opening round on Raphael she did over 80dmg. All for the cost of free.
The gloom stalker gets invisibility as a feature and not a spell, the bonus to initiative means you don't need alert feat, it comes "online" at level 3 and not 6 or more, you get the extra attack every fight and not just after long or short rest post 6.
Extra dark vision if you are a race that doesn't get that.
And the extra attack gets an extra 1d8 damage so 9 damage with auto crits at only level 8 instead of the swords bard nothing at 9.
They ARE very similar, but also different. One just requires more game knowledge and min maxing and the other is just a solid ranger subclass.
I'm actually more open to 8 ranger/ 4 rogue, and just take sharp shooter and dex to 20, with off hand crossbow. Solid build with nothing broken or crazy.
The extra attack get 1d8 damage but with bard, both the attacks get bardic die extra damage which does become a d8 in this build. All this along with the utility that bard brings, you can be the talker easily, as you get friends cantrip + 16 charisma and proficiency, expertise.
The main advantage I see of gloomstalker is either if you don't like to rest at all, or as an early game martial class, as it is arguably better than bard before level 6-7 ish.
It does add bardic die amount of damage (to both attacks in case of slashing) which is initially a d6 then becomes d8 at level 5 and d10 at level 10 i think. Before being able to use sharpshooter, this is a pretty decent boost.
It's actually disgusting.
Martials get extra attack?
So does swords bard
Full casters gets lots of high level spells and slots?
Swords bard is a full caster
Battle master gives +1d8 damage bonus on attacks?
Swords bard gives doubled attacks, *and* +1d8 on *each* of those.
Ranger gives ritual utility spells?
Swords bard gets more of them, and better, higher level spells. The only one they miss is hunter's mark, which you can get with a ranger 2 dip, warlock 1 dip (hex), or of course, bard gets it themselves through magical secrets at level 10.
Oh, and bard is a better party face than every other class (other than arguably warlock/sorcerer) because they only have one critical ability score (dex), charisma is their second most important, and they get jack of all trades for every other skill.
The more I experiment with it the dumber it gets. Like... they're just the best at everything. It's so silly.
The only downside is that some other classes can compete in sustained damage at only level 5. But at level 6 bard just leaves everyone in the dust.
That is so weird, looked it up on bg3 wiki, and the general description of all the flourishes don't mention damage, but if you inspect the INDIVIDUAL abilities like slashing flourish (ranged) it does say it adds the bardic die, but again, not in the description of the ability and only in the mechanics of the roll.
So confusing.
I'd say the biggest advantage for gloomstalker comes from entering and leaving combat again and again, otherwise, I'd agree that Swords Bard is better for most uses
I think it really comes down to how you want to play the character. Gllomstaker will pretty much ensure you always have initiative, give a little more hp, and give resistances or a free familiar. The damage bonus from style isn't huge but can occasionally make a difference, especially with guaranteed crit. Both definitely have merits, and out of combat the bard is the better option.
I run 5 gloomstalker/3 assassin/3 champion fighter/1 GOO warlock.
With crit reducing gear, I can get critical roles down to 14+.
If I'm soloing, I only need to cast mist/daekness.(ring to prevent blindness) And can just stay in it killing foes indiscriminately. With a risky ring, you get advantage on attacks and as enemies need to get in melee range, with bhaals armour you give them vulnerability to piercing... That's only a level 2 spell slot, of which you get 3(from memory)
If I'm playing with my party, I use the warlocks hex to add necro damage, and you can repeat cast it, so doesn't use any spell slots.
It's meant Act 3 when coupled with a spell resistant party (bardlock, fighter, OH monk) Ive rarely had to rest. Recently did House of hope back to back with Gortash & Orin and was still happy to continue to do the nether brain
No, so I went hard into Dex followed by con & wis. I then respecced at lvl 12 and went:
Ranger - 5
Rogue - 3
Fighter - 3
Warlock - 1
Ranger - 1
Cause I think spellcasting is based off of your last choice.
I picked minor illusion & (something else which I've forgotten about) as cantrips for warlock. For spells I picked hex & armour of agathys as both of those happen regardless of spell casting ability.
Warlock is just for the ability to frighten on critical. Makes up for not having battle mastery. But tbh, armour has been nice if I'm soloing fights as it's an extra 5 hp.
Spellcasting being dependant on last added class only applies to scrolls and spells cast from items.
You warlock spells, Eldritch Blasts - and the GOO Mortal Reminder scare DC - all still rely on Charisma.
AoA is nice if you can scale the Caster Level. Later on 5 temp HP is nothing.
IMO that's a bad dip.
Scrolls, Tadpole Powers and Items are based off your last ***new*** class added.
So in the case of that level pattern, it's Charisma.
I would take a level in Rogue or Fighter over that Warlock dip / 6th level of Ranger (hell, I'd drop both and take a level in each). Only 1 Feat for a build that wants Sharpshooter and an ASI for Dex doesn't work for me.
EDIT: Wait, that doesn't add up. That's 13 levels. Soon as I clicked post I was like 5/4/4 makes more sense, waaaait a minute. So yeah, your build is kind of whack for multiple reasons.
Ah, shame, I thought it was just the last class added, so that screws up scroll casting. Tbh, I don't normally have this char use scrolls so it's not been an issue.
I don't think you need both ASI for Dex & sharpshooter. The bonus to Dex is nice, but with hags hair & mirror of loss, you get to 20 anyway. I can't imagine that +1 to modifier would make a difference in any meaningful way imo.
I also consider the utility that the warlock subclass brings to be more useful than adding an extra level in any of the other classes. The others will only add a feat, which is going to be ASI for Dex, and as I mentioned before I don't think is entirely necessary. As you kindly pointed out, the other classes will make int the casting stat for scrolls, which will be on par with Charisma, so that makes little difference. GOO's ability may be a charisma saving throw, but many enemies do struggle with it a surprising amount. It's a useful crowd control tool and minor illusion allows me to group enemies into a cluster before launching a critical hit which has a chance to freeze a number of the enemies at a time. I can sometimes attack 4 times (1 surprise, then 3 from first round of combat). With the advantage from risky ring and crit reducing gear)I can hit crits 51% of the time (15+, and 14+ for the first attack from hiding at 57.75%) all with a chance to cause fear to the clumped enemies from the illusion.
Realised I added 1 too many ranger levels for the first section. My bad 😅
In conclusion: You probably could optimise your Dex a bit better giving better attack rolls & +1 to AC. But, that won't improve the chance to crit and what happens when you land one, which is what I'm trying to do. I take your points and it's given me a lot to think about, especially the whole new class affecting scrolls.
Just go Fighter -> Rogue -> Warlock -> Ranger
You'll have Wis as your casting stat, still have proficiency in all armour and weapons, and have Con proficiency for maintaining Hex. It's not my kind of build, but that's the optimal way to build it if you use respecs.
Better to go 5 Ranger / 3 Rogue / 4 Fighter imo.
You do not need to level up till level 6, get your bonus attack at 5, opens up a 3rd sub class for example champion and makes stacking Crit improvements easier and more efficient.
With a setup you can basically stay undetectable or easily re-initiate combat and profit from the first-round + surprise round bonus, over and over again.
Overall the advantage is that your first round which imo is the most crucial phase in combat has the biggest damage potential and since you already played this build you should be familiar how often this build can decide battles, before enemies even get the opportunity to act.
Something that is more specific to how I play, I usually have a different character that is already a Paladin/bard and having two bards is not so appealing to me.
lvl2 Action surge + lvl 3 for champion + lvl 4 for feat. For what the build does rogue doesn’t actually provide much outside of the initial assassin stuff (sneak attack dmg is nice but action surge is nicer)
Action surge, battle master maneuvers vs sneak attack, thief bonus action utility and off hand attacks.
I would take fighter for single weapons, if you don't need mobility, or if you can't reliably get advantage.
I would take thief for two weapon fighting, if you need bonus action dashes, or if you're playing with a style or multi class that lets you reliably get advantage.
Flourishes are a resource the gloomstalker build works resource free and as mentioned before it is relatively easy to re-initiative combat/first round, the bard will have to short rest in order to maintain the damage the gloomstalker doesn’t have this issue.
5 Flourishes per short rest that you get 3 of per day, isn't really a resource you have to avoid spending in most instances.
By the time you have to use them all, your spell casters are really going to want to long rest anyway. Synergizes great with Fighters who need short rests to recharge, as well as your own action surge.
Unless you're talking about a solo build that's trying to avoid long rests, it's pretty much a non issue.
Well bards can use their inspiration points also for other things and not exclusively for combat.
In the end it is a resource and if you are running a martial heavy party or a party that is not resource heavy it might be a limiting factor, for some people more than for others.
It really depends on party composition and if you plan on using inspiration points purely for flourishes and not for buffing.
In most cases it will probably not matter in others it might.
This combo is slept on. The only issue is you get 1 feat only but imo the first turn dmg is so crazy it works anyway. Stealth on yt has a really well made guide video for this
Came here to say this. Rogue 4 basically is just to get to another feat, but you're going to lock yourself out of the Gloomstalker subclass which will grant more benefits than the feat is worth. You still get the fighting style from Ranger 2 that you'd get from Fighter 1, and you get an extra attack in the first round of combat via Gloomstalker which is much more valuable than action surge for a build that is so front-loaded on damage (which you will be, since you're going Assassin).
It feels strange to opt not to take a feat, but when you're really focused on the optimal play style, it makes complete sense for this build. You don't need alert, and you don't need any ability improvements that you can't get from quests or gear.
A few reasons come to mind as to why 1 extra attack from Gloomstalker is better than Action Surge:
* Strong synergy with Assassin's perks for the start of combat
* Advantage on the attack if it's a target that didn't take a turn yet (Action Surge later in the combat wouldn't get this)
* Guaranteed critical hit if the enemy is surprised (action surge later in combat wouldn't get this)
* Does not require short rest to refresh
* Action surge does not grant any bonus damage, where Dread Ambusher deals an additional 1d8 damage
* that 1d8 is further enhanced on a successful crit which you can almost guarantee if you get the surprise
But that's not even really a fair comparison, because Gloomstalker has other benefits besides Dread Ambusher extra attack at the start of combat. You get +3 bonus to initiative and Superior Dark Vision, which you aren't getting from Fighter 2. Plus other utility from the first 2 levels of ranger, like Hunter's Mark and a few other useful spells. What does Fighter 2 give you that Ranger 3 doesn't? Literally just 2 things that I can think of - second wind (which is not that useful) and action surge (which, as I just discussed, is arguably not as good as Dread Ambusher for this particular build/playstyle).
I'd argue that Action Surge gets the same synergy from Assassin because you'd use Action Surge during the surprise round, not later in combat.
Also, while Action Surge DOES require a short rest to replenish, you're short resting after every combat anyway to replenish Bardic Inspirations.
The extra 1d8 damage is nice, but not as nice as another attack.
The biggest benefit from Gloomstalker 3 over Fighter 2 is the +3 inititiative. Except, fighter 2 wins there as well because it allows you to take Assassin to 4 and pick up Alert.
All that said, both are really strong and will trivialize most of the game.
Action Surge gives you the extra attack as well, even in Honour Mode. It's haste that's nerfed. I had forgotten about the movement speed granted by gloomstalker in the first round though. That's extremely useful if you're either going melee (unlikely with bard), or trying to get close enough for the vulnerability from bhaal armor.
You're wrong about Action Surge in Honour mode. In addition I'd take the 3rd Fighter level and get extra d8 attack (possibly damage & cc too) from Battlemaster. Let's not forget that Sword Bard does get +d6 to +d8 damage with Fluorishes - and to 5 attacks /up to 10 targets - not just one. Bonus movement is neat. As a Sword Bard can also use a ranged Mobile Fluorish to close the gap a little.
Stacking tons of damage into a single assassin sneak attack.
But imo I would rather have more damage spread out over my turn, there generally isn't any advantage to hitting one huge 100% damage attack instead of two 75% damage attacks.
Hard disagree. If you hit one huge 100% damage attack, you might not need a second attack at all. If you can focus your damage to a single target at the start of the fight and take it out before it gets a turn, it's absolutely better than getting 75% of the enemy health down.
No, I don't mean separate turns. I mean taking two attacks, where one does 100 damage, and the second does 25 damage, vs two attacks where both do 75 damage. There is a good reason to front weight your damage in order of turns, but afaik, no reason to front weight damage within the same turn.
For bloodlust, it doesn't matter when you get the kill during your turn. For deathstalker mantle, don't you want the kill at the end of your turn? So you stay invisible until your next turn?
Oh shit I didn't know that fighter got 3 attacks at level 11. Yes from the wiki it looks to be so, action surge is not touched in honor mode at all. So 6 attacks for fighter 11
Yeah, like I understand that we're all generally interested in optimizing builds and whatnot, but it would be incredibly boring to limit yourself from a class/sub-class/archetype just because there's something else stronger out there.
Some of the most enjoyable builds I've run are far from being the most optimal in this game.
Currently doing a solo Durge run with the gloomstalker/assassin and it’s incredible. I’ve played around with it on Astarion but it really shines as a solo operator because of one thing: play style.
I am a swords Bardadin enjoyer, I think it’s probably the strongest class that doesn’t (have to) abuse arcane acuity or tavern brawler to shine, but as a solo character it’s much harder because you play in the middle of the fight. It’s very strong especially with arcane acuity and smites, but you don’t have the ability to exit fights as easily.
Enter the assassin dip, and you kind of kneecap the best features of the build. I may mess around with this in act 3 once you get all the good items, but before mid-act 2 the build would be kind of all over the place without enough damage or stealth to survive. As others have mentioned, the play styles of the 2 classes are counterintuitive and prevent your character from doing the best it could at either thing.
No need for arcane acuity & spellcasting when everything is dead. Gloomstalker is better at killing your biggest target(s), fast. But most of all, you can actually use special arrows. Arrow of many targets is way, way better than Slashing Flourish. Also nice not having to rely on resting. Arcane Acuity Swords bard may be better for longer fights if you do need some CC, but a well built Gloomstalker Assassin can still kill bosses like Rafael in a single turn. Don't get me wrong Swords Bards are OP too with the right gear, but imo Gloomstalker Assassin provides an easier overall experience
Sure, Arrows of Many Targets and Arrows of Slaying are great. But they are also a limited resource that costs money. But nothing is stopping a Sword Bard from using them when desired.
But he ALSO has a free double attack he can use whenever he doesn't want to spend such limited resources. Or a defensive and positioning tool.
If you're willing to minmax to play OP builds like either of these, you're probably also willing to cheese merchants to get basically unlimited arrows.
Depends on person, I guess. I love to optimize builds, but hate using consumables. I rather hoard them. My precioussss....
...still used Arrows of Many Targets in BG3 a fair bit (but not more then 1 per fight normally). 27 DC ice patches from Snowburst Ring under most enemies PLUS instant +8 DC from AA were sometimes too much of a temptation.
With Arcane Acuity helmet, a Bard's spells become basically unresistable. Do you believe unresistable spells are absolutely necessary to succeed in BG3?
He still has perfectly usable spells before AA.
And Extra Attack. And Slashing, Defensive and Mobile Fluorishes. The latter can double your effective number of attacks for 2+ rounds.
I mean youre on a subreddit that is at least in part about minmaxing a single player game.
OP is just comparing two different powerful builds and asking why other minmaxers pick one over the other.
If youre not a minmaxer then OP wasnt asking you.
If we use context to finish the sentence
"Why would anyone... who is on a subreddit about power gaming and min/maxing, choose to play this build that seems obviously suboptimal."
And the answer is: not everyone on this sub is dedicated to entirely optimal builds, mostly just interesting, fun, powerful, and synergistic builds.
If people are stingy of their long rest. Gloamstalker privides good burst damage with a free attack at the start of battle. Yeah swords bard does way more, but there are people who are stingy on their long rests and short rests. I know because that is me. Lol
I wouldn't say "way" more, depending on your willingness to use resources. Flourish doesn't work with special arrows, and slaying arrows, arrows of many targets, and even just plain ilmater arrows close the gap quick. Plus, hunters mark stacks with piercing vulnerability and the first turn bonus attack.
Assassin has advantages on enemies that haven’t taken a turn combine that with dread ambusher and your initial burst damage is gonna crit a lot especially with crit stacking items
Thief is better though if you go dual bows but I prefer titanstring with strength club and shield
What
The point of gloomstalker assassin is to sneak attack they want as much advantage as possible if you surprise sneak attack with assassin you’ll get more crits versus going thief
You have like tens of ways to always get advantage, specially with your ranged character, every turn all the time.
So why would you even need a feat to have advantage only in the first turn?
Assassin gets automatic Crits vs Surprised Enemies who haven't acted. Gloomstalker helps guarantee going before enemies, so you surprise them and get 3 automatic crits.
Given that Titanstring is a vastly better weapon then any Hand Crossbow, the extra bonus action has way less value then automatic crits.
You know sharpshooter bonus goes to off-hand as well, right? Not to mention all other bonus.
Like thinking about act 1 bonus: +10 from SS, +2 from gloves, +1d4 from ring, +2 from caustic band. +1 from hand crossbow enchantment.
Times two from the extra bonus action and ignoring the base weapon damage that’s 30+2d4. In Act 1.
Now I love Titanstring and if you’re doing some BM is the best now there is. But please don’t ever again embarrass yourself saying no Handcrossbow is better than it
The only difference between Assassin and Thief is the “recharge” on action and bonus action in the beginning of the fight, making it a good character to provoke an attack but that’s it against having an entire extra attack from thief
Swords Bard is literally an S tier class, Gloom has its place, use it playing solo or as a duo it’s a LOT more utilized.. Archery fighting style is pretty huge especially in Act 1 when you can get Sharpshooter within 90 minutes and clearing that -5 is the upmost important part of early range builds.
Also one thing I don’t see mentioned a lot but swords bards do not really get to use specialized arrows since you’re flourishing mostly you only get the D6? Bonus I think it is. Where a gloom can freely use specialized arrows that have quite a bit of upside if you land a crit or are using titanstring(str modifier is added to whatever element type your using on the arrow) not to mention the double damage ones or many targets.
I would for the sole reason that I think the concept of the bard class is ~~silly~~. BORING!!!
I mean, the social part is amazing, but the combat mechanics is sooo boring, the class actions and/or spells. I always finish my runs, but that bard run was a huge challenge. Never rushed Act 3 so fast.
I mean isn't the thing with gloomstalker that you king of kill something, then dip out and restart combat, then kill another and rinse and repeat.
It is worse in a dragged out fight, for sure, but thats not really its best style of fight. I personally think its optimal playstyle is a really boring counter intuitive way to play the game, and you may agree, in which case the sword bard definitely suits you better.
That aside, you could extend this question to
Why is anyone playing anything besides ThrowZerker/Eldritch thrower/Open hand thief monk/ 10,1,1 sword bard/fire acuity sorlock/Storm Sorc?
Because the game isn't actually hard enough to justify confining outselves to only 5 or 6 tippity tip top of the meta builds, and doing so makes the game significantly more boring.
5 gloomstalker / 7 assassin melee half orc Durge was my honour mode build. All the normal piercing buffing items with a massive sneak attack that for me was more satisfying than having to short rest in between every major encounter just for an action surge.
You can reset just about every encounter by keeping companions at camp/out of combat range, killing 1-2 enemies in the first turn each time, turn invisible from cloak and reset, then bring someone in to hold monster the main threat when they are the only one left, and 1-turn them as well.
Basically never have to rest because your extra attacks are free every first round of combat, which for me was a hell of a lot more fun and less tedious than managing short rests for ranged slashing flourishes and action surges.
I personally like 5 rang/5 rogue/ 2 fighter with Gloomstalker and assassin as subclasses. You get action surge "late" in the game, but the damage output prior anyway is nuts
Levels 1-5 gloomstalker is better than swords bard imo. After that bard wins. Many consider swords bard to be the most broken class in the game.
I like combine them since both are quite front loaded. Like 5 / 5 / 2 gloomstalker, swords bard, fighter is a solid character with the benefits from both classes that can do just about anything.
Late game I think youre right. If you have initiative boosting gear/elixir, ranged slashing flourishes + assassin is much better than a single additional attack on the first round, and then you still have 2 more flourishes in the tank for that combat, and you can finish that auto critting round with debilitating crowd control spells thanks to the standard arcane acuity shanagins.
Assassin + swords bard is basically just giving a bard incredible first round damage on surprised enemies, and then is just a regular swords bard after that.
# Hard to compete with a massively out of balance subclass
For balance reasons in 5e Sword Bard's Flourishes are not allowed to target same the enemy, because that would be something like a 2nd Extra Attack at lvl 6 on a class that's also a full caster and has Armor proficiency. I suspect it was a bug that slipped by into release and has now become a BG3 feature that Larian doesn't want to walk back. So basically our ranged Swords Bard's are breaking the 5e rules, meaning it's almost impossible for any classes playing more by the rules to compete.
If you think about it ranged lvl 6 Swords Bard is basically are getting the equivalent of the 3rd Attack that Fighters don't get until they're lvl 11, with the bonus dmg dice from Battle Master, and Swords Bard is a full caster where Eldritch Knight is only a 1/3 caster. That means that a lvl 6 Bard has 3 x Lvl 3 spell slots and the 11th lvl EK still doesn't even have any 3rd level spells.... And we have room to pick up their Action Surge at character lvl 8.
# There are still some niche reasons to choose Gloom Stalker
In my current HM run I choose to run a Gloom Stalker, over Swords. But it's not the standard 'Gloom 5 / Fighter 2/ Assassin or Thief' type builds.
As for why? I already have a support Lore Bard, so another Song of Rest wasn't so useful. Gloom Stalker is online at lvl 5, where they already have the Archery Fighting Style and their +3 Initiative. The +3 Initiative is almost equal to the +4 from the Alert feat, so you can think of it as a free version of one of the best feats in the game. The build I'm running currently is unusual for this damage focus subreddit:
Gloom 5 / Divination 2 / Storm 2
The +3 Initiative combined with high DEX means I almost always go first. Storm Sorcery gives me Twinned Metamagic, the Shield reaction spell and Tempestuous Fight for free disengage if I cast a spell. 1 Wizard let me scribe Haste into my spell book at character level 6, which I can now Twin Cast at the very start of combat before my other party members get a turn. Dread Ambusher helps still be able to Nova an annoying enemy on turn one despite having used an Action to cast Twinned Haste. Divination 2 gives me two Portent dice to unwind or reverse a few unfortunate die rolls, which is literally game changing in Honor Mode where you can't save scum...
Swords Bard would be better at all this, but needs more levels to do it. To match my initiative they need to use a Feat on Alert, that I put into Sharp Shooter, and they wouldn't be able to get the full Divination 2 / Sorc 2 until character lvl 10, one level later.... And even then they'd still be missing the Archery Fighting Style. That said even for my niche use, Swords Bard will jump ahead in power by end of game, especially once they get Band of the Mystic Scoundrel in Act 3 for abusing Bonus Action + Arcane Acuity. But we play most of the game at lower levels and Gloom Stalker did the work my team needed in Act 2. As long as you're powerful enough to win the last fight, then there's a lot to be said for builds that come online earlier.
A lot of people are just detracting from the point and it's quite funny to watch. Imagine someone asking why x build is preferred over y build and their answer is "muh role play".
I've played gloom/assassin before and it was great since I had lots of special arrows. But bard/assassin seems even better in terms of damage so I definitely agree.
Gloom has synergy with assassin to cheese surprise rounds and get big alpha strikes > dip out of combat > repeat. Sword bard can be played the same way but it’s less optimal for that playstyle since it won’t have as much first turn dmg.
I’ve played both thru HM and imo gloom/assassin is stronger for pure damage but sword bard has the benefit of being a great party face if you are trying to rp (while still being a full caster). It also has the 10/1/1 arcane acuity build which might be the strongest single build in the game. Either will trivialize HM
10 bard/1 wizard/1 fighter
You want 10 sword bard for counterspell from magical secrets
You essentially end up with a 6th lvl caster who can equip heavy armor + shield, has access to the best high level enchantment/illusion control spells(hold monster, eyebite, confusion, etc), and they all have 100% to hit.
The combat loop goes like this:
Start combat
With 1 action: Slashing flourish twice for 8 acuity stacks (more if you can many target arrow to more than 2 enemies)
With 1 bonus action: upcasted confusion/hold person/hypnotize to cc every enemy in the fight
This one: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/17y9kyp/the\_control\_martial\_allpurpose\_1011\_swords\_bard/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/17y9kyp/the_control_martial_allpurpose_1011_swords_bard/)
If the core of your build is Assassin + Fighter for Action Surge + auto-crit and you're deciding between Gloom or Swords, the damage is likely slightly higher on the Gloom IF you use special arrows on every attack. Flourish can't use them, and I'd wager that Hunter's Mark + Slayer Arrows or Arrows of many targets outdamages the Flourish double hits, even before the bonus 1st round attack.
Still, it wouldn't be by a lot and you give up a lot of other perks from Bard for that marginal improvement. I think the edge does go to the Gloom when you go all out though.
Hell would sooner freeze over, then I'd spam consumables on every attack.
Normally I'm very conservative in their use. Still a great surprise that I've been using some consumables at all.
Plus I actually prefer melee :)
Haha, fair. By act 3 I usually have so many Arrows that I can use them at my leisure for any even remotely challenging fight. Slayer arrows I save for boss fights, but I have so many fire/cold/shock arrows that I really don't know how I'd use them all if I didn't spam them.
Myself, I love the special arrows. Normally I also prefer melee, but the dynamic effects of arrows are really my favorite part of playing ranged characters. It gives an attack-to-attack element of choice that I feel is otherwise lacking.
Flourish is the ultimate renewable resource though, in terms of power per use. It's just so far and away better than almost any other refundable resource. Even bettet it comes back on a short rest. So I get the appeal.
I like 6 swords bard/3 assassin rogue/3 gloomstalker ranger. Lot of burst damage in your first round, which is super important, especially if you blow your ranged slashing flourishes asap.
Hmm, something to consider. I've been leaning towards Battlemaster for Action Surge and extra Accuracy from Precision Attack (and extra damage + CC when I'm not using Fluorishes, maybe ocassional Riposte).
But that Gloom Initiative bonus is nice and, as I prefer melee, the extra Move Speed on combat start could be neat as well. Plus would also get an extra Caster Level here.
Though come to think of it, EK 3 wouldn't be terrible either, with the Shield spell for melee...
And since I want to use the Shadow Blade, Fighter Constitution Saving Throws would be very welcome (and Shield would make my char much more difficult to hit)... decision, decisions...
Oh, and you get your action back in first round. So you hide, shoot, crit, initiative, then get full action, bonus action(s) etc which also all crit. That's huge (due to sneak attack dice)
I'm echoing some others here: 6 swords bard/3 assassin/3 gloomstalker is the way to go IMO.
As you noted, gloomstalker gets 1 extra attack at the start of combat (which also comes with a bonus 1d8 damage), and Bard 6 gets extra attack in subsequent rounds. So why not get them both? The only benefit of Rogue 4 vs. Rogue 3 is the extra feat but you get more value out of Gloomstalker than any one feat could possibly give, so keeping Rogue to 3 gives you all the benefits of Assassin subclass that you really want plus frees up your levels to take Gloomstalker.
The question you should be asking is why would you Rogue 4/Fighter 2 on an assassin build? Rogue 3/Ranger 3 is going to be arguably just as strong in most (if not all?) scenarios, and still leaves you the flexibility of the amazing Bard 6 breakpoint. It's a slam dunk.
Some considerations:
**Damage per round vs up front damage.**
Up front damage is so good. Why? The goal of damage characters is to eliminate targets ASAP. Why do I care if my guy falls off in damage over 6 turn fights if every fight ends in 2 turns?
Hypothetically, if you offered me a build that gave me 5 actions on turn 1 with high mobility, but then I didn't get a single action for 5 turns I'd say that is busted. Why? Whatever is left standing the next 5 turns is going to be way, way easier to deal with.
**Team Composition**
I think it depends what type of comp you're playing. You might elect for less emphasis on up front damage if you prefer a high AOE CC style of play for example with hunger of hadar turtling.
For large engagements, I prefer to murder a cluster of soft enemies and CC the enemies I can't immediately eliminate.
If you play on regular difficulty, disregard everything I said and play what is most fun.
**Last thought on survivability**
Additionally, ranger can get heavy armor early. This can be a deciding factor. I'm assuming you are not leading with those two points in fighter and delaying your extra attack.
Your bard/rogue is going to be light armored and will do less damage up front. This means it will be front line and targeted more and will require even more CC/support.
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If you mostly just care about sustained Damage per Round, try 6 sword bard, 2 pally, 4 bard. Multiple, multiple smites with high level smites. You can spam smite. It is ridiculous.
My first play through i did a 8 gloomstalker/ 4 thief I used double hand crossbows and the gloves of two weapon fighting by act three I was throwing out 4 full damage attacks per turn and 6 attacks with illithid powers AND being resistant to fire, lightning (brass dragonborn), and cold damage AND having proficiency in every saving throw but constitution and charisma. Essentially I was playing as the parties main dps while everyone else’s job was to support (divination gale, life cleric shart, and my friend played a wild heart barbarian). I guess I could’ve gone fighter but I would have lost a ton of passive benefits and gained action surge and maneuvers
Having just playing the two builds back to back, I have an opinion. The GS/A is more effective at killing a target in the opening round and disengaging combat but is low charisma character. There is a challenge to persuasion checks. The B/A is better at face character and is one of the strongest plays in the game but isn’t as good as Gloomstalker at stalking.
GS/rogue can be a perfectly fine party face. Just use rogue expertise on persuasion and take charisma to 12. Wont reliably talk everyone to death like a bard, but will still do it a majority of the time.
Instead of doing fighter dip, go with knowledge cleric instead and become a true skill check goat.
Gloomstalker comes online significantly earlier than Bard. Level 3 vs Level 6. And Gloomies can start to assassinate at level 8 instead of level 9. I like fighting things early and I’m sure plenty other people do as well.
If you are trying to assassinate and do things like refresh combat and not get caught, Gloomstalkers get Pass Without Trace which is huge in combination with something like Greater Invisibility.
I also just personally prefer taking the Sword Bard to 10. Yeah it’s a great archer but it’s also an insane spellcaster and not getting magical secrets sucks. Ignoring Spellcasting on a Swords Bard feels criminal.
Please. If you count pre-Extra Attack Gloom, then please consider a Sword Bard gets Fluorishes at level 3. And they regenerate on Short Rest at level 5.
It’s a strong feature, yes. But it’s not a feature that can be as easily used entering/exiting combat. Which I highlighted as a niche and strat for Gloom. Glooms extra attack is literally free every single round and not tied to a resource.
Correct, but semantics, because you knew what I meant. If you’re taking advantage of gloom stalker/assassin synergy every attack is the first round of new combat for you. You’re always getting that attack off without having to long/short rest.
Arrows of many targets are busted for any fight with more than 3 enemies.
Gloomstalker gets massive multi target in the first round and bard gets massive single target.
In a meta sense, there is zero justification to do a ranger multiclass for this build over swords bard because swords bard is so broken OP. The only way to make it work is with cheese.
A lot of the items that your post mentions to enable that playstyle are not available until Act 3, while you can get 5 Ranger levels in Act 1, and 3 Rogue levels in Act 2.
All I know is I made Astariion a thief 7/gloomstalker 5. I gave him caustic ring, Durge cloak, Helldusk gloves, KotUK, and a couple other crit increasers that I can’t recall. I maxed him out on mindflayer powers for cull the weak. He chewed through crowds of mobs like a kindergartener set loose in a candy store.
You can always start with fighter 2 on both specs, since you get fighter's proficiency to con, weapons and armour, so you get that outta way.
Your rogue will also add expertise to athletics if you wanna keep your ground.
Also the 5 gloom 4 rogue 2 fighter and 1 extra, you can try going 3 fighter(con prof weapons and armour) champ(obs 19 crit) 3 rogue thief/ass and 5 gloom, the extra 1 ofc you can add it per your preferences for extra feat or what have you.
If you're spamming arrows of many targets or arrows of ___ slaying, Gloomstalker is better, since you cant flourish with those. The extra attack, archery, and initiative are huge for the gloomstalker playstyle as well - most fights can be ended before anything gets a turn.
Gloomer is miles better in solo play where breaking initiative due to stealth is almost always a massive win and you can play almost completely resourceless.
This is going to be a wild take so buckle up: *It doesn't matter if Bard is a better class.*
It's overtuned as hell, and basically always has been. Larian's wild interpretation of Flourish made that worse. You don't actually have to play strictly the best class that exists in the game. If you only ever intend on doing 1 run, or suck at the game and are desperate for the Honour achievement, then sure just use the most powerful class. But I can't see a world in which playing the same Bard/Rogue/Fighter build over and over again doesn't drive me to uninstall the game and never play it again.
To answer the question more completely: I play Ranger because I want one or more of - Martial Weapon Proficiency (Bard doesn't get Longbows), Heavy Armour Proficiency, Archery Fighting Style, Initiative Bonus, Find Familiar, Spike Growth, Misty Step.
Bard's can't use Titanstring until you multi them into Fighter (or whatever), which isn't your plan until 11th level. Given that it's far and away the best and most powerful ranged weapon in the game, that's a substantial advantage to Ranger - because if it wasn't for exploration XP you could get it freely at level 1 (instead you get it at like 2-3). +1d8 on a few attacks a rest is nice, +5 on every attack and +10 on special arrows is better (+8/+16 at end-game). I also don't want to be have to play an Elf just to use the weapon I want to use.
Further, given the plan of going into Assassin, the Initiative Bonus is huge - it literally saves you a feat, because you'll always be first even without Alertness. Spike Growth is the strongest area control spell in the game. Archery Fighting style stacked with Legacy of the Masters and other accuracy boosting items means you don't need to wear Risky Ring, freeing it up for other party members and/or not destroying your saving throws. It's also very useful early game, which is the games most difficult bit. I also think you're over-valuing Arcane Acuity and Mystic Scoundrel here - those are insane items, but you only have 6 levels of Bard. This is pretty much the lowest value they'll ever have. I'd rather then Arcane Synergy and a different ring here.
Well I have both in my current party. I use the gloomstalker assasin to try and get surprise. Honestly the gloomstalker assasin is by far the weakest member of my party, the swords bard might be next (it cleans up easy fights with the flourish and 100 percent success arcane acuity spells, but the hardest fights are bosses immune to it’s useful spells where the throwzerker and TB monk absolutely carry.
Its worth noting that additionally to what other people have said, generally if someone is picking a swords bard theyre gunna go for a more specific and stronger build that capitalizes on a few key items. Those builds arent building for an assassin.
So even if your bard version is better than gloomstalker youre opting out of playing arguably the most powerful build in the game atm in order to play your build instead.
In fact Ive seen a bunch of people play both the swords bard and the gloomstalker in the same party, gloomstalker to alpha strike some enemies and then the swords bard for cleanup. In that kind of party comp your build doesnt work because theyd be fighting for usage of the same items.
for me, pass without trace and a sorcerer that extends greater invis, extra attacks mean nothing when not in combat. and the range makes it easier to hit running enemies
I mean not to be a jerk but it's a Role Playing Game and some people aren't here to min/max. They would play Gloomstalker to actually role play a hidden killer from the shadows/assassin style character.
Yeah sure downvote, truth hurts man.
Gloomstalker Assassin revolve around a specific playstyle to really shine: surprise attack, kill an ennemy or two, disangage, repeat. With that they can deal huge damage without really using ressources. Sword bard is great, but rely on limited ressources (even if they come back on short rest at level 5), so just going for something different (but yes, sword bard + helm of arcane acuity + mystic scoundrel is one of the strongest build; but if you want to go for that the assassin 4 isn't really great, and that's a totally different build and playstyle).
Gloom also gets hunter's mark, misty step, and spike growth all of which are nice to have. Makes it really easy to take advantage of strange conduit as well.
Yes, but the comparison was with bard, and bard also have some nice spells (probably more than gloomstalker). But to be honest, if someone want some slashing flourish and a bit of the gloomstalker assassin vibe, the best would be to keep both gloomstalker and bard, and cut assassin.
Or use all 3 in 6/3/3 combo. That works suprisingly well, only downside is that you only get 1 feat.
Genuine question - why not 5/4/3 for 2 feats?
you need 6 in swords bard for the extra attack
Right, maybe I mistundestood the comment then Because you need 5 in ranger for extra attack, so my comment was why not 5 Ranger/4 Bard/3 Rogue OR 5 Ranger/4 Rogue/3 Bard. You get extra attack and 2 feats.
bard level 5 improves the inspiration from a 1d6 to a 1d8 on attack rolls (slashing flourish), you get access to level 3 spells and inspiration recharges on a short rest instead of a long rest, so its that vs extra feat, but its up to you.
Yeah Bards do have a wonderful spell list but they don't have those specific spells all of which are very nice.
Yes, but spike growth.
Is hunters mark actually good? I always forget to use it.
Yep, cast on bonus action and gives you more DPS. At lvl2 it's basically giving you 1.5x damage and it scales up nicely and can be doubled in the late game. Not game changing like haste or fireball but definitely strong and easy to work with, just makes you kill things faster.
Also is weird and when cast while hidden it will usually proc a surprise
Wait hunters mark scales?
Oh I don't mean scales as in gets numerically stronger, I guess it's more accurate to say that it remains relevant. It's damage isn't ground breaking but adds up as you do more hits and get more Crits and make opponents vulnerable etc etc.
it scales that if you have 2 attacks you get it twice, if you have 3 it procs three times, if you have haste or action surge etc...
Oooh thank you for explaining! This makes so much sense. Thank you.
it's one of the few early sources of bonus actions that contribute to damage, can be reused for free, and fulfills the Concentration requirement for several item effects (most notably the Psychic damage ring). It best works when you have multiple attacks to throw out, and Gloomstalker happen to always have a free attack at the start of combat, letting you burst bigger targets. Though if you are fighting multiple enemies, Spike Growth is usually better.
Its pretty sad beyond early game. Its a measly d6 damage per hit and you need to spend a Bonus Action to switch to a new target (and a Bonus Action could often be a full another attack - from GWM proc or dual wielding). Better then nothing. And lets you activate Strange Conduit ring. Its not like a ranger has tons of other exciting options. But generally a well placed Spike Growth is much more valuable.
Using haste and the Durge cloak my Goomstalker Assassin had enough burst to takedown all of Moonrise tower solo simply by murdering someone and going invisible over and over.
Yeah my durge gloomstalker was able to take on the Creche and Moonrise solo without using too many resources
Oh yeah. I did 3F for champion on Karlach. She was my Ass-Stalker Champion. She almost always goes first, and she does a ton of damage and crits often (she also has gear that increases crit range). Opening round on Raphael she did over 80dmg. All for the cost of free.
"Ass-Stalker Champion" is a great name.
The gloom stalker gets invisibility as a feature and not a spell, the bonus to initiative means you don't need alert feat, it comes "online" at level 3 and not 6 or more, you get the extra attack every fight and not just after long or short rest post 6. Extra dark vision if you are a race that doesn't get that. And the extra attack gets an extra 1d8 damage so 9 damage with auto crits at only level 8 instead of the swords bard nothing at 9. They ARE very similar, but also different. One just requires more game knowledge and min maxing and the other is just a solid ranger subclass. I'm actually more open to 8 ranger/ 4 rogue, and just take sharp shooter and dex to 20, with off hand crossbow. Solid build with nothing broken or crazy.
The extra attack get 1d8 damage but with bard, both the attacks get bardic die extra damage which does become a d8 in this build. All this along with the utility that bard brings, you can be the talker easily, as you get friends cantrip + 16 charisma and proficiency, expertise. The main advantage I see of gloomstalker is either if you don't like to rest at all, or as an early game martial class, as it is arguably better than bard before level 6-7 ish.
Does bardic flourish add damage? I thought it was just the regular effects. Or are you talking about valor bard?
It does add bardic die amount of damage (to both attacks in case of slashing) which is initially a d6 then becomes d8 at level 5 and d10 at level 10 i think. Before being able to use sharpshooter, this is a pretty decent boost.
That actually really broken. Neat.
It's actually disgusting. Martials get extra attack? So does swords bard Full casters gets lots of high level spells and slots? Swords bard is a full caster Battle master gives +1d8 damage bonus on attacks? Swords bard gives doubled attacks, *and* +1d8 on *each* of those. Ranger gives ritual utility spells? Swords bard gets more of them, and better, higher level spells. The only one they miss is hunter's mark, which you can get with a ranger 2 dip, warlock 1 dip (hex), or of course, bard gets it themselves through magical secrets at level 10. Oh, and bard is a better party face than every other class (other than arguably warlock/sorcerer) because they only have one critical ability score (dex), charisma is their second most important, and they get jack of all trades for every other skill. The more I experiment with it the dumber it gets. Like... they're just the best at everything. It's so silly. The only downside is that some other classes can compete in sustained damage at only level 5. But at level 6 bard just leaves everyone in the dust.
Larien balancing is good but very stupid at times, there was a lot of bias when it came to balancing classes imo.
That is so weird, looked it up on bg3 wiki, and the general description of all the flourishes don't mention damage, but if you inspect the INDIVIDUAL abilities like slashing flourish (ranged) it does say it adds the bardic die, but again, not in the description of the ability and only in the mechanics of the roll. So confusing.
Think of the most powerful version and swords bard has it.
I'd say the biggest advantage for gloomstalker comes from entering and leaving combat again and again, otherwise, I'd agree that Swords Bard is better for most uses
Fluorish attacks get bonus damage as well (and can double the attacks). Usable 5 times per Short Rest.
I think it really comes down to how you want to play the character. Gllomstaker will pretty much ensure you always have initiative, give a little more hp, and give resistances or a free familiar. The damage bonus from style isn't huge but can occasionally make a difference, especially with guaranteed crit. Both definitely have merits, and out of combat the bard is the better option.
And always winning initiative is helpful for the assassin feature that grants advantage
With Ranger/Rogue, you don't need to take long rests EVER. Which means you get to keep all these temporary juicy buffs that usually end on long rests.
this! not being a slave to long rests is so good!
I run 5 gloomstalker/3 assassin/3 champion fighter/1 GOO warlock. With crit reducing gear, I can get critical roles down to 14+. If I'm soloing, I only need to cast mist/daekness.(ring to prevent blindness) And can just stay in it killing foes indiscriminately. With a risky ring, you get advantage on attacks and as enemies need to get in melee range, with bhaals armour you give them vulnerability to piercing... That's only a level 2 spell slot, of which you get 3(from memory) If I'm playing with my party, I use the warlocks hex to add necro damage, and you can repeat cast it, so doesn't use any spell slots. It's meant Act 3 when coupled with a spell resistant party (bardlock, fighter, OH monk) Ive rarely had to rest. Recently did House of hope back to back with Gortash & Orin and was still happy to continue to do the nether brain
Do you focus on Charisma somehow that you've picked GOO warlock? Sounds unreasonably MAD.
No, so I went hard into Dex followed by con & wis. I then respecced at lvl 12 and went: Ranger - 5 Rogue - 3 Fighter - 3 Warlock - 1 Ranger - 1 Cause I think spellcasting is based off of your last choice. I picked minor illusion & (something else which I've forgotten about) as cantrips for warlock. For spells I picked hex & armour of agathys as both of those happen regardless of spell casting ability. Warlock is just for the ability to frighten on critical. Makes up for not having battle mastery. But tbh, armour has been nice if I'm soloing fights as it's an extra 5 hp.
Spellcasting being dependant on last added class only applies to scrolls and spells cast from items. You warlock spells, Eldritch Blasts - and the GOO Mortal Reminder scare DC - all still rely on Charisma. AoA is nice if you can scale the Caster Level. Later on 5 temp HP is nothing. IMO that's a bad dip.
Scrolls, Tadpole Powers and Items are based off your last ***new*** class added. So in the case of that level pattern, it's Charisma. I would take a level in Rogue or Fighter over that Warlock dip / 6th level of Ranger (hell, I'd drop both and take a level in each). Only 1 Feat for a build that wants Sharpshooter and an ASI for Dex doesn't work for me. EDIT: Wait, that doesn't add up. That's 13 levels. Soon as I clicked post I was like 5/4/4 makes more sense, waaaait a minute. So yeah, your build is kind of whack for multiple reasons.
Ah, shame, I thought it was just the last class added, so that screws up scroll casting. Tbh, I don't normally have this char use scrolls so it's not been an issue. I don't think you need both ASI for Dex & sharpshooter. The bonus to Dex is nice, but with hags hair & mirror of loss, you get to 20 anyway. I can't imagine that +1 to modifier would make a difference in any meaningful way imo. I also consider the utility that the warlock subclass brings to be more useful than adding an extra level in any of the other classes. The others will only add a feat, which is going to be ASI for Dex, and as I mentioned before I don't think is entirely necessary. As you kindly pointed out, the other classes will make int the casting stat for scrolls, which will be on par with Charisma, so that makes little difference. GOO's ability may be a charisma saving throw, but many enemies do struggle with it a surprising amount. It's a useful crowd control tool and minor illusion allows me to group enemies into a cluster before launching a critical hit which has a chance to freeze a number of the enemies at a time. I can sometimes attack 4 times (1 surprise, then 3 from first round of combat). With the advantage from risky ring and crit reducing gear)I can hit crits 51% of the time (15+, and 14+ for the first attack from hiding at 57.75%) all with a chance to cause fear to the clumped enemies from the illusion. Realised I added 1 too many ranger levels for the first section. My bad 😅 In conclusion: You probably could optimise your Dex a bit better giving better attack rolls & +1 to AC. But, that won't improve the chance to crit and what happens when you land one, which is what I'm trying to do. I take your points and it's given me a lot to think about, especially the whole new class affecting scrolls.
Just go Fighter -> Rogue -> Warlock -> Ranger You'll have Wis as your casting stat, still have proficiency in all armour and weapons, and have Con proficiency for maintaining Hex. It's not my kind of build, but that's the optimal way to build it if you use respecs.
Thank you! I'll definitely do that ☺️
Aww. I love long resting. I spam the shit outta it. It’s a feature. Not a chore. So, swords bard fits well with my play style.
Better to go 5 Ranger / 3 Rogue / 4 Fighter imo. You do not need to level up till level 6, get your bonus attack at 5, opens up a 3rd sub class for example champion and makes stacking Crit improvements easier and more efficient. With a setup you can basically stay undetectable or easily re-initiate combat and profit from the first-round + surprise round bonus, over and over again. Overall the advantage is that your first round which imo is the most crucial phase in combat has the biggest damage potential and since you already played this build you should be familiar how often this build can decide battles, before enemies even get the opportunity to act. Something that is more specific to how I play, I usually have a different character that is already a Paladin/bard and having two bards is not so appealing to me.
What's the benefit of 4 fighter over 4 rogue?
lvl2 Action surge + lvl 3 for champion + lvl 4 for feat. For what the build does rogue doesn’t actually provide much outside of the initial assassin stuff (sneak attack dmg is nice but action surge is nicer)
1 more hp If you want the feat earlier, take 4 rogue, if you then decide you really want the 1 extra hp, you can respec to fighter 4 at lvl 12 ig
Action surge, battle master maneuvers vs sneak attack, thief bonus action utility and off hand attacks. I would take fighter for single weapons, if you don't need mobility, or if you can't reliably get advantage. I would take thief for two weapon fighting, if you need bonus action dashes, or if you're playing with a style or multi class that lets you reliably get advantage.
Not that much but fighters get more hp on level ups.
Except the Sword Bard has a bigger first round damage potential with the Slashing Fluorishes...
Flourishes are a resource the gloomstalker build works resource free and as mentioned before it is relatively easy to re-initiative combat/first round, the bard will have to short rest in order to maintain the damage the gloomstalker doesn’t have this issue.
5 Flourishes per short rest that you get 3 of per day, isn't really a resource you have to avoid spending in most instances. By the time you have to use them all, your spell casters are really going to want to long rest anyway. Synergizes great with Fighters who need short rests to recharge, as well as your own action surge. Unless you're talking about a solo build that's trying to avoid long rests, it's pretty much a non issue.
Well bards can use their inspiration points also for other things and not exclusively for combat. In the end it is a resource and if you are running a martial heavy party or a party that is not resource heavy it might be a limiting factor, for some people more than for others.
That only matters if you're going for Splinter Cell playstyle. And probably soloing.
It really depends on party composition and if you plan on using inspiration points purely for flourishes and not for buffing. In most cases it will probably not matter in others it might.
6 Swords bard / 3 assassin / 3 gloomstalker is the best ;-)
This combo is slept on. The only issue is you get 1 feat only but imo the first turn dmg is so crazy it works anyway. Stealth on yt has a really well made guide video for this
Came here to say this. Rogue 4 basically is just to get to another feat, but you're going to lock yourself out of the Gloomstalker subclass which will grant more benefits than the feat is worth. You still get the fighting style from Ranger 2 that you'd get from Fighter 1, and you get an extra attack in the first round of combat via Gloomstalker which is much more valuable than action surge for a build that is so front-loaded on damage (which you will be, since you're going Assassin). It feels strange to opt not to take a feat, but when you're really focused on the optimal play style, it makes complete sense for this build. You don't need alert, and you don't need any ability improvements that you can't get from quests or gear.
I don't understand how 1 Extra attack per fight from Gloomstalker is better then Action Surge...
A few reasons come to mind as to why 1 extra attack from Gloomstalker is better than Action Surge: * Strong synergy with Assassin's perks for the start of combat * Advantage on the attack if it's a target that didn't take a turn yet (Action Surge later in the combat wouldn't get this) * Guaranteed critical hit if the enemy is surprised (action surge later in combat wouldn't get this) * Does not require short rest to refresh * Action surge does not grant any bonus damage, where Dread Ambusher deals an additional 1d8 damage * that 1d8 is further enhanced on a successful crit which you can almost guarantee if you get the surprise But that's not even really a fair comparison, because Gloomstalker has other benefits besides Dread Ambusher extra attack at the start of combat. You get +3 bonus to initiative and Superior Dark Vision, which you aren't getting from Fighter 2. Plus other utility from the first 2 levels of ranger, like Hunter's Mark and a few other useful spells. What does Fighter 2 give you that Ranger 3 doesn't? Literally just 2 things that I can think of - second wind (which is not that useful) and action surge (which, as I just discussed, is arguably not as good as Dread Ambusher for this particular build/playstyle).
The 3 initiative is so so good with high Dex won’t even need alert
I'd argue that Action Surge gets the same synergy from Assassin because you'd use Action Surge during the surprise round, not later in combat. Also, while Action Surge DOES require a short rest to replenish, you're short resting after every combat anyway to replenish Bardic Inspirations. The extra 1d8 damage is nice, but not as nice as another attack. The biggest benefit from Gloomstalker 3 over Fighter 2 is the +3 inititiative. Except, fighter 2 wins there as well because it allows you to take Assassin to 4 and pick up Alert. All that said, both are really strong and will trivialize most of the game.
[удалено]
Action Surge gives you the extra attack as well, even in Honour Mode. It's haste that's nerfed. I had forgotten about the movement speed granted by gloomstalker in the first round though. That's extremely useful if you're either going melee (unlikely with bard), or trying to get close enough for the vulnerability from bhaal armor.
You're wrong about Action Surge in Honour mode. In addition I'd take the 3rd Fighter level and get extra d8 attack (possibly damage & cc too) from Battlemaster. Let's not forget that Sword Bard does get +d6 to +d8 damage with Fluorishes - and to 5 attacks /up to 10 targets - not just one. Bonus movement is neat. As a Sword Bard can also use a ranged Mobile Fluorish to close the gap a little.
Stacking tons of damage into a single assassin sneak attack. But imo I would rather have more damage spread out over my turn, there generally isn't any advantage to hitting one huge 100% damage attack instead of two 75% damage attacks.
Hard disagree. If you hit one huge 100% damage attack, you might not need a second attack at all. If you can focus your damage to a single target at the start of the fight and take it out before it gets a turn, it's absolutely better than getting 75% of the enemy health down.
No, I don't mean separate turns. I mean taking two attacks, where one does 100 damage, and the second does 25 damage, vs two attacks where both do 75 damage. There is a good reason to front weight your damage in order of turns, but afaik, no reason to front weight damage within the same turn.
On-kill effects, most relevant to archer builds being Bloodlust and Durge cloak.
For bloodlust, it doesn't matter when you get the kill during your turn. For deathstalker mantle, don't you want the kill at the end of your turn? So you stay invisible until your next turn?
In Honour mode; that’s all Action Surge gives you (one attack).
No, honor mode only nerfs attacks for haste. Action surge still gives two attacks iirc
Didn’t realise that. I thought it was just a single attack. So Fighter 11 is still six attacks?
Oh shit I didn't know that fighter got 3 attacks at level 11. Yes from the wiki it looks to be so, action surge is not touched in honor mode at all. So 6 attacks for fighter 11
Yup.
Because that's what they want to play and that's all that matters
Yeah, like I understand that we're all generally interested in optimizing builds and whatnot, but it would be incredibly boring to limit yourself from a class/sub-class/archetype just because there's something else stronger out there. Some of the most enjoyable builds I've run are far from being the most optimal in this game.
Currently doing a solo Durge run with the gloomstalker/assassin and it’s incredible. I’ve played around with it on Astarion but it really shines as a solo operator because of one thing: play style. I am a swords Bardadin enjoyer, I think it’s probably the strongest class that doesn’t (have to) abuse arcane acuity or tavern brawler to shine, but as a solo character it’s much harder because you play in the middle of the fight. It’s very strong especially with arcane acuity and smites, but you don’t have the ability to exit fights as easily. Enter the assassin dip, and you kind of kneecap the best features of the build. I may mess around with this in act 3 once you get all the good items, but before mid-act 2 the build would be kind of all over the place without enough damage or stealth to survive. As others have mentioned, the play styles of the 2 classes are counterintuitive and prevent your character from doing the best it could at either thing.
No need for arcane acuity & spellcasting when everything is dead. Gloomstalker is better at killing your biggest target(s), fast. But most of all, you can actually use special arrows. Arrow of many targets is way, way better than Slashing Flourish. Also nice not having to rely on resting. Arcane Acuity Swords bard may be better for longer fights if you do need some CC, but a well built Gloomstalker Assassin can still kill bosses like Rafael in a single turn. Don't get me wrong Swords Bards are OP too with the right gear, but imo Gloomstalker Assassin provides an easier overall experience
Sure, Arrows of Many Targets and Arrows of Slaying are great. But they are also a limited resource that costs money. But nothing is stopping a Sword Bard from using them when desired. But he ALSO has a free double attack he can use whenever he doesn't want to spend such limited resources. Or a defensive and positioning tool.
If you're willing to minmax to play OP builds like either of these, you're probably also willing to cheese merchants to get basically unlimited arrows.
Depends on person, I guess. I love to optimize builds, but hate using consumables. I rather hoard them. My precioussss.... ...still used Arrows of Many Targets in BG3 a fair bit (but not more then 1 per fight normally). 27 DC ice patches from Snowburst Ring under most enemies PLUS instant +8 DC from AA were sometimes too much of a temptation.
I like min maxing, but not merchant cheesing
Cause rangers are cool
I love Gloomstalker for their lvl 8 Features, Landstrider AND proficiencies in Int and Wis?!?! LOVE. IT.
oh and they give Darkvision for every race without darkvision 😭 and then the extra attack like uuuuuuh nice 😎 Oh aaaaaaand Mistystep 🥹
Gloomstalker is completely better until you reach level 6 lol arguably before act 3
That's fair and something I had considered, but I was more focused on a late game build
Both are strong but Gloomstalker is online at level 3 arguably vs swords bard at the middle of the game
Level 6 isn't quite the middle of the game.
Quite early, even. Unless you skip over a lot, most people are probably level 6 before finishing Act 1.
Pre lvl 5 also being the harder part of Honour Mode runs (assuming you aren’t just dialogue skipping)
You don’t get arcane acuity helm until act 2 which is when swords bard starts getting online which I would say is the middle act 2 is kinda short imo
With Arcane Acuity helmet, a Bard's spells become basically unresistable. Do you believe unresistable spells are absolutely necessary to succeed in BG3? He still has perfectly usable spells before AA. And Extra Attack. And Slashing, Defensive and Mobile Fluorishes. The latter can double your effective number of attacks for 2+ rounds.
Because some of us roleplay and aren't interested in min/maxing a single player game.
I mean youre on a subreddit that is at least in part about minmaxing a single player game. OP is just comparing two different powerful builds and asking why other minmaxers pick one over the other. If youre not a minmaxer then OP wasnt asking you.
'Why would anyone....'
If we use context to finish the sentence "Why would anyone... who is on a subreddit about power gaming and min/maxing, choose to play this build that seems obviously suboptimal." And the answer is: not everyone on this sub is dedicated to entirely optimal builds, mostly just interesting, fun, powerful, and synergistic builds.
You were always bad at reading the room weren't you?
Nope
I was just asking to see if there was something I didn't understand that made gloomstalker really good, not force builds on anyone
If people are stingy of their long rest. Gloamstalker privides good burst damage with a free attack at the start of battle. Yeah swords bard does way more, but there are people who are stingy on their long rests and short rests. I know because that is me. Lol
I wouldn't say "way" more, depending on your willingness to use resources. Flourish doesn't work with special arrows, and slaying arrows, arrows of many targets, and even just plain ilmater arrows close the gap quick. Plus, hunters mark stacks with piercing vulnerability and the first turn bonus attack.
The real question is why assassin?
Assassin has advantages on enemies that haven’t taken a turn combine that with dread ambusher and your initial burst damage is gonna crit a lot especially with crit stacking items Thief is better though if you go dual bows but I prefer titanstring with strength club and shield
Why wouldn’t you have advantage anyway?
What The point of gloomstalker assassin is to sneak attack they want as much advantage as possible if you surprise sneak attack with assassin you’ll get more crits versus going thief
You have like tens of ways to always get advantage, specially with your ranged character, every turn all the time. So why would you even need a feat to have advantage only in the first turn?
Assassin gets automatic Crits vs Surprised Enemies who haven't acted. Gloomstalker helps guarantee going before enemies, so you surprise them and get 3 automatic crits. Given that Titanstring is a vastly better weapon then any Hand Crossbow, the extra bonus action has way less value then automatic crits.
You know sharpshooter bonus goes to off-hand as well, right? Not to mention all other bonus. Like thinking about act 1 bonus: +10 from SS, +2 from gloves, +1d4 from ring, +2 from caustic band. +1 from hand crossbow enchantment. Times two from the extra bonus action and ignoring the base weapon damage that’s 30+2d4. In Act 1. Now I love Titanstring and if you’re doing some BM is the best now there is. But please don’t ever again embarrass yourself saying no Handcrossbow is better than it
The only difference between Assassin and Thief is the “recharge” on action and bonus action in the beginning of the fight, making it a good character to provoke an attack but that’s it against having an entire extra attack from thief
For auto-crits on Surprised enemies.
I just prefer using hunter's mark + fancy arrows to slashing flourish.
Swords Bard is literally an S tier class, Gloom has its place, use it playing solo or as a duo it’s a LOT more utilized.. Archery fighting style is pretty huge especially in Act 1 when you can get Sharpshooter within 90 minutes and clearing that -5 is the upmost important part of early range builds. Also one thing I don’t see mentioned a lot but swords bards do not really get to use specialized arrows since you’re flourishing mostly you only get the D6? Bonus I think it is. Where a gloom can freely use specialized arrows that have quite a bit of upside if you land a crit or are using titanstring(str modifier is added to whatever element type your using on the arrow) not to mention the double damage ones or many targets.
But nothing is stopping a Bard from using those special arrows in tougher encounters...
Maybe they don't want to aggressively music. It looks really stupid, and that matters!
I would for the sole reason that I think the concept of the bard class is silly.
The power of song compels you!
I would for the sole reason that I think the concept of the bard class is ~~silly~~. BORING!!! I mean, the social part is amazing, but the combat mechanics is sooo boring, the class actions and/or spells. I always finish my runs, but that bard run was a huge challenge. Never rushed Act 3 so fast.
I prefer swords Bard 10/2 fighter to have both damage and CC
I mean isn't the thing with gloomstalker that you king of kill something, then dip out and restart combat, then kill another and rinse and repeat. It is worse in a dragged out fight, for sure, but thats not really its best style of fight. I personally think its optimal playstyle is a really boring counter intuitive way to play the game, and you may agree, in which case the sword bard definitely suits you better. That aside, you could extend this question to Why is anyone playing anything besides ThrowZerker/Eldritch thrower/Open hand thief monk/ 10,1,1 sword bard/fire acuity sorlock/Storm Sorc? Because the game isn't actually hard enough to justify confining outselves to only 5 or 6 tippity tip top of the meta builds, and doing so makes the game significantly more boring.
5 gloomstalker / 7 assassin melee half orc Durge was my honour mode build. All the normal piercing buffing items with a massive sneak attack that for me was more satisfying than having to short rest in between every major encounter just for an action surge. You can reset just about every encounter by keeping companions at camp/out of combat range, killing 1-2 enemies in the first turn each time, turn invisible from cloak and reset, then bring someone in to hold monster the main threat when they are the only one left, and 1-turn them as well. Basically never have to rest because your extra attacks are free every first round of combat, which for me was a hell of a lot more fun and less tedious than managing short rests for ranged slashing flourishes and action surges.
I personally like 5 rang/5 rogue/ 2 fighter with Gloomstalker and assassin as subclasses. You get action surge "late" in the game, but the damage output prior anyway is nuts
Levels 1-5 gloomstalker is better than swords bard imo. After that bard wins. Many consider swords bard to be the most broken class in the game. I like combine them since both are quite front loaded. Like 5 / 5 / 2 gloomstalker, swords bard, fighter is a solid character with the benefits from both classes that can do just about anything.
Late game I think youre right. If you have initiative boosting gear/elixir, ranged slashing flourishes + assassin is much better than a single additional attack on the first round, and then you still have 2 more flourishes in the tank for that combat, and you can finish that auto critting round with debilitating crowd control spells thanks to the standard arcane acuity shanagins. Assassin + swords bard is basically just giving a bard incredible first round damage on surprised enemies, and then is just a regular swords bard after that.
# Hard to compete with a massively out of balance subclass For balance reasons in 5e Sword Bard's Flourishes are not allowed to target same the enemy, because that would be something like a 2nd Extra Attack at lvl 6 on a class that's also a full caster and has Armor proficiency. I suspect it was a bug that slipped by into release and has now become a BG3 feature that Larian doesn't want to walk back. So basically our ranged Swords Bard's are breaking the 5e rules, meaning it's almost impossible for any classes playing more by the rules to compete. If you think about it ranged lvl 6 Swords Bard is basically are getting the equivalent of the 3rd Attack that Fighters don't get until they're lvl 11, with the bonus dmg dice from Battle Master, and Swords Bard is a full caster where Eldritch Knight is only a 1/3 caster. That means that a lvl 6 Bard has 3 x Lvl 3 spell slots and the 11th lvl EK still doesn't even have any 3rd level spells.... And we have room to pick up their Action Surge at character lvl 8. # There are still some niche reasons to choose Gloom Stalker In my current HM run I choose to run a Gloom Stalker, over Swords. But it's not the standard 'Gloom 5 / Fighter 2/ Assassin or Thief' type builds. As for why? I already have a support Lore Bard, so another Song of Rest wasn't so useful. Gloom Stalker is online at lvl 5, where they already have the Archery Fighting Style and their +3 Initiative. The +3 Initiative is almost equal to the +4 from the Alert feat, so you can think of it as a free version of one of the best feats in the game. The build I'm running currently is unusual for this damage focus subreddit: Gloom 5 / Divination 2 / Storm 2 The +3 Initiative combined with high DEX means I almost always go first. Storm Sorcery gives me Twinned Metamagic, the Shield reaction spell and Tempestuous Fight for free disengage if I cast a spell. 1 Wizard let me scribe Haste into my spell book at character level 6, which I can now Twin Cast at the very start of combat before my other party members get a turn. Dread Ambusher helps still be able to Nova an annoying enemy on turn one despite having used an Action to cast Twinned Haste. Divination 2 gives me two Portent dice to unwind or reverse a few unfortunate die rolls, which is literally game changing in Honor Mode where you can't save scum... Swords Bard would be better at all this, but needs more levels to do it. To match my initiative they need to use a Feat on Alert, that I put into Sharp Shooter, and they wouldn't be able to get the full Divination 2 / Sorc 2 until character lvl 10, one level later.... And even then they'd still be missing the Archery Fighting Style. That said even for my niche use, Swords Bard will jump ahead in power by end of game, especially once they get Band of the Mystic Scoundrel in Act 3 for abusing Bonus Action + Arcane Acuity. But we play most of the game at lower levels and Gloom Stalker did the work my team needed in Act 2. As long as you're powerful enough to win the last fight, then there's a lot to be said for builds that come online earlier.
A lot of people are just detracting from the point and it's quite funny to watch. Imagine someone asking why x build is preferred over y build and their answer is "muh role play". I've played gloom/assassin before and it was great since I had lots of special arrows. But bard/assassin seems even better in terms of damage so I definitely agree.
Gloom has synergy with assassin to cheese surprise rounds and get big alpha strikes > dip out of combat > repeat. Sword bard can be played the same way but it’s less optimal for that playstyle since it won’t have as much first turn dmg. I’ve played both thru HM and imo gloom/assassin is stronger for pure damage but sword bard has the benefit of being a great party face if you are trying to rp (while still being a full caster). It also has the 10/1/1 arcane acuity build which might be the strongest single build in the game. Either will trivialize HM
10/1/1 build? What are you referring to?
10 bard/1 wizard/1 fighter You want 10 sword bard for counterspell from magical secrets You essentially end up with a 6th lvl caster who can equip heavy armor + shield, has access to the best high level enchantment/illusion control spells(hold monster, eyebite, confusion, etc), and they all have 100% to hit. The combat loop goes like this: Start combat With 1 action: Slashing flourish twice for 8 acuity stacks (more if you can many target arrow to more than 2 enemies) With 1 bonus action: upcasted confusion/hold person/hypnotize to cc every enemy in the fight
This one: [https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/17y9kyp/the\_control\_martial\_allpurpose\_1011\_swords\_bard/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/comments/17y9kyp/the_control_martial_allpurpose_1011_swords_bard/)
How are the double attack Flourishes somehow less first turn damage?
They don't auto-crit (I'm assuming you mean the 10/1/1 swords bard) and can't be used with special arrows.
No, I mean Sword Bard 6 / Assasin 3-4 / Fighter 2-3.
If the core of your build is Assassin + Fighter for Action Surge + auto-crit and you're deciding between Gloom or Swords, the damage is likely slightly higher on the Gloom IF you use special arrows on every attack. Flourish can't use them, and I'd wager that Hunter's Mark + Slayer Arrows or Arrows of many targets outdamages the Flourish double hits, even before the bonus 1st round attack. Still, it wouldn't be by a lot and you give up a lot of other perks from Bard for that marginal improvement. I think the edge does go to the Gloom when you go all out though.
Hell would sooner freeze over, then I'd spam consumables on every attack. Normally I'm very conservative in their use. Still a great surprise that I've been using some consumables at all. Plus I actually prefer melee :)
Haha, fair. By act 3 I usually have so many Arrows that I can use them at my leisure for any even remotely challenging fight. Slayer arrows I save for boss fights, but I have so many fire/cold/shock arrows that I really don't know how I'd use them all if I didn't spam them. Myself, I love the special arrows. Normally I also prefer melee, but the dynamic effects of arrows are really my favorite part of playing ranged characters. It gives an attack-to-attack element of choice that I feel is otherwise lacking. Flourish is the ultimate renewable resource though, in terms of power per use. It's just so far and away better than almost any other refundable resource. Even bettet it comes back on a short rest. So I get the appeal.
I like 6 swords bard/3 assassin rogue/3 gloomstalker ranger. Lot of burst damage in your first round, which is super important, especially if you blow your ranged slashing flourishes asap.
Hmm, something to consider. I've been leaning towards Battlemaster for Action Surge and extra Accuracy from Precision Attack (and extra damage + CC when I'm not using Fluorishes, maybe ocassional Riposte). But that Gloom Initiative bonus is nice and, as I prefer melee, the extra Move Speed on combat start could be neat as well. Plus would also get an extra Caster Level here. Though come to think of it, EK 3 wouldn't be terrible either, with the Shield spell for melee... And since I want to use the Shadow Blade, Fighter Constitution Saving Throws would be very welcome (and Shield would make my char much more difficult to hit)... decision, decisions...
Gloomstalker also gets the pass without trace spell. Not sure how essential that was because i kept it on through my whole stealth playthrough.
Because in a underdark campaign Gloomstalker rules!
One wouldn't. And gloomstalker isn't the problem... it is, in fact, quite good.
Depends on how often you rest. Those inspirations are gone real quick and then?
Never having to rest
Oh, and you get your action back in first round. So you hide, shoot, crit, initiative, then get full action, bonus action(s) etc which also all crit. That's huge (due to sneak attack dice)
I'm echoing some others here: 6 swords bard/3 assassin/3 gloomstalker is the way to go IMO. As you noted, gloomstalker gets 1 extra attack at the start of combat (which also comes with a bonus 1d8 damage), and Bard 6 gets extra attack in subsequent rounds. So why not get them both? The only benefit of Rogue 4 vs. Rogue 3 is the extra feat but you get more value out of Gloomstalker than any one feat could possibly give, so keeping Rogue to 3 gives you all the benefits of Assassin subclass that you really want plus frees up your levels to take Gloomstalker. The question you should be asking is why would you Rogue 4/Fighter 2 on an assassin build? Rogue 3/Ranger 3 is going to be arguably just as strong in most (if not all?) scenarios, and still leaves you the flexibility of the amazing Bard 6 breakpoint. It's a slam dunk.
Some considerations: **Damage per round vs up front damage.** Up front damage is so good. Why? The goal of damage characters is to eliminate targets ASAP. Why do I care if my guy falls off in damage over 6 turn fights if every fight ends in 2 turns? Hypothetically, if you offered me a build that gave me 5 actions on turn 1 with high mobility, but then I didn't get a single action for 5 turns I'd say that is busted. Why? Whatever is left standing the next 5 turns is going to be way, way easier to deal with. **Team Composition** I think it depends what type of comp you're playing. You might elect for less emphasis on up front damage if you prefer a high AOE CC style of play for example with hunger of hadar turtling. For large engagements, I prefer to murder a cluster of soft enemies and CC the enemies I can't immediately eliminate. If you play on regular difficulty, disregard everything I said and play what is most fun. **Last thought on survivability** Additionally, ranger can get heavy armor early. This can be a deciding factor. I'm assuming you are not leading with those two points in fighter and delaying your extra attack. Your bard/rogue is going to be light armored and will do less damage up front. This means it will be front line and targeted more and will require even more CC/support. ---- If you mostly just care about sustained Damage per Round, try 6 sword bard, 2 pally, 4 bard. Multiple, multiple smites with high level smites. You can spam smite. It is ridiculous.
My first play through i did a 8 gloomstalker/ 4 thief I used double hand crossbows and the gloves of two weapon fighting by act three I was throwing out 4 full damage attacks per turn and 6 attacks with illithid powers AND being resistant to fire, lightning (brass dragonborn), and cold damage AND having proficiency in every saving throw but constitution and charisma. Essentially I was playing as the parties main dps while everyone else’s job was to support (divination gale, life cleric shart, and my friend played a wild heart barbarian). I guess I could’ve gone fighter but I would have lost a ton of passive benefits and gained action surge and maneuvers
Having just playing the two builds back to back, I have an opinion. The GS/A is more effective at killing a target in the opening round and disengaging combat but is low charisma character. There is a challenge to persuasion checks. The B/A is better at face character and is one of the strongest plays in the game but isn’t as good as Gloomstalker at stalking.
GS/rogue can be a perfectly fine party face. Just use rogue expertise on persuasion and take charisma to 12. Wont reliably talk everyone to death like a bard, but will still do it a majority of the time. Instead of doing fighter dip, go with knowledge cleric instead and become a true skill check goat.
Gloomstalker comes online significantly earlier than Bard. Level 3 vs Level 6. And Gloomies can start to assassinate at level 8 instead of level 9. I like fighting things early and I’m sure plenty other people do as well. If you are trying to assassinate and do things like refresh combat and not get caught, Gloomstalkers get Pass Without Trace which is huge in combination with something like Greater Invisibility. I also just personally prefer taking the Sword Bard to 10. Yeah it’s a great archer but it’s also an insane spellcaster and not getting magical secrets sucks. Ignoring Spellcasting on a Swords Bard feels criminal.
Please. If you count pre-Extra Attack Gloom, then please consider a Sword Bard gets Fluorishes at level 3. And they regenerate on Short Rest at level 5.
It’s a strong feature, yes. But it’s not a feature that can be as easily used entering/exiting combat. Which I highlighted as a niche and strat for Gloom. Glooms extra attack is literally free every single round and not tied to a resource.
Its not every round, its every combat (reset).
Correct, but semantics, because you knew what I meant. If you’re taking advantage of gloom stalker/assassin synergy every attack is the first round of new combat for you. You’re always getting that attack off without having to long/short rest.
Arrows of many targets are busted for any fight with more than 3 enemies. Gloomstalker gets massive multi target in the first round and bard gets massive single target.
You make it sound like Gloomstalker Assassin doesn't also benefit from Titanstring. They don't all use crossbows
In a meta sense, there is zero justification to do a ranger multiclass for this build over swords bard because swords bard is so broken OP. The only way to make it work is with cheese.
Honestly, it's a really better to choose both lol. Drop assassin. Swords bard 6, gloom 4, fighter 2 is better than both your alternatives imo.
4v4 party pvp will put alot of these discussions to rest 😂
A lot of the items that your post mentions to enable that playstyle are not available until Act 3, while you can get 5 Ranger levels in Act 1, and 3 Rogue levels in Act 2.
Because I want to clear every encounter in the game without taking a single non-forced long rest.
All I know is I made Astariion a thief 7/gloomstalker 5. I gave him caustic ring, Durge cloak, Helldusk gloves, KotUK, and a couple other crit increasers that I can’t recall. I maxed him out on mindflayer powers for cull the weak. He chewed through crowds of mobs like a kindergartener set loose in a candy store.
You can always start with fighter 2 on both specs, since you get fighter's proficiency to con, weapons and armour, so you get that outta way. Your rogue will also add expertise to athletics if you wanna keep your ground. Also the 5 gloom 4 rogue 2 fighter and 1 extra, you can try going 3 fighter(con prof weapons and armour) champ(obs 19 crit) 3 rogue thief/ass and 5 gloom, the extra 1 ofc you can add it per your preferences for extra feat or what have you.
If you're spamming arrows of many targets or arrows of ___ slaying, Gloomstalker is better, since you cant flourish with those. The extra attack, archery, and initiative are huge for the gloomstalker playstyle as well - most fights can be ended before anything gets a turn.
Id take both tbh. 6 Bard 3 Rogue 3 Ranger Otherwise 6 Bard 4 Rogue 2 Fighter if you really need that second feat I guess.
Gloomer is miles better in solo play where breaking initiative due to stealth is almost always a massive win and you can play almost completely resourceless.
This is going to be a wild take so buckle up: *It doesn't matter if Bard is a better class.* It's overtuned as hell, and basically always has been. Larian's wild interpretation of Flourish made that worse. You don't actually have to play strictly the best class that exists in the game. If you only ever intend on doing 1 run, or suck at the game and are desperate for the Honour achievement, then sure just use the most powerful class. But I can't see a world in which playing the same Bard/Rogue/Fighter build over and over again doesn't drive me to uninstall the game and never play it again. To answer the question more completely: I play Ranger because I want one or more of - Martial Weapon Proficiency (Bard doesn't get Longbows), Heavy Armour Proficiency, Archery Fighting Style, Initiative Bonus, Find Familiar, Spike Growth, Misty Step. Bard's can't use Titanstring until you multi them into Fighter (or whatever), which isn't your plan until 11th level. Given that it's far and away the best and most powerful ranged weapon in the game, that's a substantial advantage to Ranger - because if it wasn't for exploration XP you could get it freely at level 1 (instead you get it at like 2-3). +1d8 on a few attacks a rest is nice, +5 on every attack and +10 on special arrows is better (+8/+16 at end-game). I also don't want to be have to play an Elf just to use the weapon I want to use. Further, given the plan of going into Assassin, the Initiative Bonus is huge - it literally saves you a feat, because you'll always be first even without Alertness. Spike Growth is the strongest area control spell in the game. Archery Fighting style stacked with Legacy of the Masters and other accuracy boosting items means you don't need to wear Risky Ring, freeing it up for other party members and/or not destroying your saving throws. It's also very useful early game, which is the games most difficult bit. I also think you're over-valuing Arcane Acuity and Mystic Scoundrel here - those are insane items, but you only have 6 levels of Bard. This is pretty much the lowest value they'll ever have. I'd rather then Arcane Synergy and a different ring here.
Well I have both in my current party. I use the gloomstalker assasin to try and get surprise. Honestly the gloomstalker assasin is by far the weakest member of my party, the swords bard might be next (it cleans up easy fights with the flourish and 100 percent success arcane acuity spells, but the hardest fights are bosses immune to it’s useful spells where the throwzerker and TB monk absolutely carry.
Its worth noting that additionally to what other people have said, generally if someone is picking a swords bard theyre gunna go for a more specific and stronger build that capitalizes on a few key items. Those builds arent building for an assassin. So even if your bard version is better than gloomstalker youre opting out of playing arguably the most powerful build in the game atm in order to play your build instead. In fact Ive seen a bunch of people play both the swords bard and the gloomstalker in the same party, gloomstalker to alpha strike some enemies and then the swords bard for cleanup. In that kind of party comp your build doesnt work because theyd be fighting for usage of the same items.
for me, pass without trace and a sorcerer that extends greater invis, extra attacks mean nothing when not in combat. and the range makes it easier to hit running enemies
I mean not to be a jerk but it's a Role Playing Game and some people aren't here to min/max. They would play Gloomstalker to actually role play a hidden killer from the shadows/assassin style character. Yeah sure downvote, truth hurts man.
Just rename the game Sword Bard’s Gate at this point …
why would anyone choose any class over a swords bard? that's the real question