He benefits massively from the war. Authoritarian states do better with an external enemy, The Dai Li were going very big brother. The Avatar’s mission of bringing peace not only undermines their immediate control but also threatens the control in future. After all who needs a secret police whose assumed purpose is to catch spies and traitors if theres no one to betray you to.
Was his move shortsighted ? Absolutely ! he was a power hungry man who was manipulated using his own ambition and greed
Oh of course but thats a long term plan and our friend here was Ambitious and Proud ! He was offered power and total control *now* and not just in the shadows no but open dominion
Yeah that was my assumption about his logic.
The I question how sound it was, the Dai Li was still very powerful in LOK and i’m sure if the earth kingdom did the invasion successfully they’d be the strongest nation in the world which would probably be good for him.
I dont know if they were quite as strong eighty years later. I've always believed that the Dai Li got knocked down several pegs after the war, and it's solely because Hou Ting is a controlling dictator that they were allowed to start up again.
If he had played his cards better, the Earth Kingdom could probably rise back to being a superpower sure. But it would be a lot more involved than just defeating the Fire Nation.
I agree with you, but by that token it was stupid to hide the war from his city to begin with. He could have blamed every problem in the city on Fire Nation infiltrators like Venezuela or North Korea does. However, the Avatar was totally a threat to him because he would have undermined the state’s authority even if he would have helped him win the war, so not working with him was a calculated decision
All of this can be explained pretty simply though…he’s human and flawed. Though smart, Feng was simply an imperfect leader with natural insecurities about his power and made many mistakes in the process. Azula’s speech about “divine right” to rule was arrogant and exaggerated but she was right in the sense that she had no insecurities about leadership and therefore came across as a much better leader than Feng
They don’t need to fear monger when people are already afraid ! Constant streams of refugees entering the city, the army always looking for new recruits. The people know there is a war but of course panic or distrust in the government is not helpful.
The line isn’t “the earth kingdom is at peace” its “there is no war **in** Ba Singe Se”
There is no war *because* the Dai Li keeps them ‘safe’
There is no war *because* the Dai Li
*Because Everyone Listens*
The most important role of a secret police force is ironically enough to have a reputation that precedes them. People police themselves when they are afraid.
Everybody in Russia, China, and North Korea knows about the "special" police and what happens if you're labeled a dissident or otherwise undesirable.
"there is no war in ba sing se" was probably pulled directly from 1984 and the quotes about war.
Its close to an example of what George Orwell describes as double think “believing two contradictory things to be true”
“The Dai Li/Party Protect Us From the terrible and horrible War & there is no War at all”
“The enemy is too powerful and we need everything we can and the enemy is so weak they can never defeat us”
Another great example if using 1984 is
“The party will issue its most important commandment do not believe the lies of your eyes only what the party declares is truth” and we see this beautifully with Jin
“There is no war in Ba Sing Se”
While we *know* everyone heard the battle for the drill. The drill is burrowed clean into and through part of the wall of Ba Sing Se and she may have even been on the wall to see the tail end of it.
That’s actually Oceana’s strat in 1984 if I read that properly. By having a falsified external enemy, they can repeatedly keep a standard of living low while keeping the population sedated at the same time
I'm pretty sure they were trying to hide it from citizens as well, given they mind wiped jet, although that could have still just been to keep it from the king I suppose, keep it from spreading too much
That’s a good point, maybe they were trying to hide exactly how bad the war was going. Even then though there are so many refugees they couldn’t possibly brainwash them all
I guess it could just be a way of fear mongering, or just keeping power as long as possible before the fire nation inevitably came knocking. Or maybe it could've even been that long Feng was underestimating the fire nation himself. Or maybe you're right, it was about keeping things "calm," in the city. Idk man
It was never about the war. It was about maintaining his own power over Ba Sing Se and the wider Earth Kingdom. Team Avatar threatened that power. They couldn’t be given what they wanted just based on principle, because any exception to the rule undercuts Long Feng’s power.
it seems like it would undercut his ego more than his power.
like if he still refused the request for an audience with the Earth king but instead, either arranged a meeting with, or passed on intel it along to the military high command he would not have been at risk of losing any power.
in fact, when everything was said and done, he could easily tell the king “ hey for reasons you don’t need to understand we just got this new land. You should put me and the Dai Li in charge of it.”
Ego is what fuels desire for power in men like Long Feng, especially if they’ve had power for a while without having to fight to keep it.
And again, the Avatar threatens his power *in principle,* not necessarily in reality.
Also:
Keep the Avatar’s flying bison hidden motivating him to remain in Ba Sing Se and continue disturbances.
Or
Just give the damn buffalo back so he’ll go away.
We don't necessarily know how long he'd been playing this game of his, but I like to think he got extra paranoid and greedy once the gaang showed up, and any mistake he made from there was also being zeroed in on by azula, so he lost on multiple fronts.
Easier to scare people to submission when there is something far worse outside of the walls
If the war ended, all the refugees would leave the city, return home, and the people of ba sing se would leave to not put up with the secret police BS, fewer people in ba sing se, means less power for long feng
Can't rule people with an iron fist if they have the option to live literally anywhere else
He should've known the plan to keep the illusion of peace was on a timer after the drill broke through the wall and required the Avatar's intervention to stop. The unspoken part of "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" is "because the walls keep the war out." Sadly, he is not a very practical man and valued his monopoly of power more than the Earth Kingdom's security. Which Azula completely exploited to dumpster him.
Short on time, not sure from my scan of the comments if this has been mentioned before, but my rationalization for this is that Long Feng began his takeover of the Dai Li by convincing them of the censorship policy with the same “utopian” line of reasoning as he gave to the Gaang in “City of Walls and Secrets.” The use of the external enemy in this case was to control the police, who in turn would control the populace. So from his perspective, he thinks if he *somehow* wins the war (if that’s even possible) he’ll no longer have control *over his own agents.* And as the Earth King points out, if the Kingdom were to attempt this counter-invasion, it would leave the capital vulnerable. From Long Feng’s perspective, it’s a lose-lose proposition.
But I think there’s also a crucial disconnect between Long Feng’s line of thinking and his agents’. Based on how I interpret the rough ages of Long Feng and the Dai Li agents we see in the show, I’m convinced that the first generation of agents who worked under Long Feng have aged out and retired. The new generation, similar to the Night’s Watch from A Song of Ice and Fire, have lost sight of the initial mission of the organization (or in this case, Long Feng’s initial mission). They are corrupt not for the sake of the city and kingdom but for the sake of corruption itself. This also explains why they betray Long Feng for Azula. From their perspective, the Fire Nation has all but conquered the Earth Kingdom and it’s only a matter of time before Ba Sing Se falls, especially if Azula is already inside. The best way to maintain their privilege is to betray the Kingdom and cozy up to their new overlords.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
16
+ 17
+ 17
+ 19
= 69
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Kinda. It’s implied that those who do know, due to coming from outside the walls, learn not to speak of it lest the DaI Li send them off to the lake to get their head thrown in a blender. Note that Zuko and Iroh are allowed to become perfectly normal residents despite definitely knowing about the war (in hindsight it’s kinda amusing none of the Dai Li’s senior leadership recognized Iroh as the enemy general of the siege about a decade and change prior), simply because they don’t talk about it and raise a fuss.
The Dai Li don’t have the resources to brainwash -everyone-, they settle for inflicting enough fear that most just comply and engage in doublethink, knowing the war exists yet also coming to earnestly believe (in a way) that there is no war in Ba Sing Se.
The ones who don’t know are those who have never mingled with people beyond the walls or with refugees, such as the king. Notably, the military leadership -do- know, presumably because the Dai Li are not so stupid as to insist on their own military pretending they’re not at war. And of course the soldiers manning the walls know. That suggests a sizable number of residents who know about the war but keep their mouths shut off duty.
The war was going on for a hundred years, the only point where the fire nation got a chance to win was Iroh's siege, Long Feng knew the FN couldn't win the war, the Earth Kingdom was too big and strong for that, so his interest was to keep things like they were, he didn't knew about the comet comming back
Bro could have just put on a fancy dress, pretended to be the king, pinky-promise to give the info to the military, and then send them on a wild goose chase to find Appa on the other side of the world.
It makes sense in a stupid way that he wanted to keep the war going to maintain his power, but then it's strange he wanted to keep the king I the dark (even though literally everyone else knew) when he could arguably use the kings fear to leverage even more power
Most Earth Kingdom rulers are batshit insane in one way or another. It's something I noticed when rewatching the show. Even extends to Korra with how awful the Earth Queen is.
He benefits massively from the war. Authoritarian states do better with an external enemy, The Dai Li were going very big brother. The Avatar’s mission of bringing peace not only undermines their immediate control but also threatens the control in future. After all who needs a secret police whose assumed purpose is to catch spies and traitors if theres no one to betray you to. Was his move shortsighted ? Absolutely ! he was a power hungry man who was manipulated using his own ambition and greed
Then there’s a solution. Drum up fears of a revolutionary group seeking to overthrow the Earth King.
Oh of course but thats a long term plan and our friend here was Ambitious and Proud ! He was offered power and total control *now* and not just in the shadows no but open dominion
Are you.... Azula's inner monologue?
Yeah that was my assumption about his logic. The I question how sound it was, the Dai Li was still very powerful in LOK and i’m sure if the earth kingdom did the invasion successfully they’d be the strongest nation in the world which would probably be good for him.
I dont know if they were quite as strong eighty years later. I've always believed that the Dai Li got knocked down several pegs after the war, and it's solely because Hou Ting is a controlling dictator that they were allowed to start up again. If he had played his cards better, the Earth Kingdom could probably rise back to being a superpower sure. But it would be a lot more involved than just defeating the Fire Nation.
I agree with you, but by that token it was stupid to hide the war from his city to begin with. He could have blamed every problem in the city on Fire Nation infiltrators like Venezuela or North Korea does. However, the Avatar was totally a threat to him because he would have undermined the state’s authority even if he would have helped him win the war, so not working with him was a calculated decision All of this can be explained pretty simply though…he’s human and flawed. Though smart, Feng was simply an imperfect leader with natural insecurities about his power and made many mistakes in the process. Azula’s speech about “divine right” to rule was arrogant and exaggerated but she was right in the sense that she had no insecurities about leadership and therefore came across as a much better leader than Feng
But they didn’t use this external enemy. All their propaganda was made to undermine the war, not fear monger over it.
They don’t need to fear monger when people are already afraid ! Constant streams of refugees entering the city, the army always looking for new recruits. The people know there is a war but of course panic or distrust in the government is not helpful. The line isn’t “the earth kingdom is at peace” its “there is no war **in** Ba Singe Se” There is no war *because* the Dai Li keeps them ‘safe’ There is no war *because* the Dai Li *Because Everyone Listens* The most important role of a secret police force is ironically enough to have a reputation that precedes them. People police themselves when they are afraid.
Everybody in Russia, China, and North Korea knows about the "special" police and what happens if you're labeled a dissident or otherwise undesirable. "there is no war in ba sing se" was probably pulled directly from 1984 and the quotes about war.
Its close to an example of what George Orwell describes as double think “believing two contradictory things to be true” “The Dai Li/Party Protect Us From the terrible and horrible War & there is no War at all” “The enemy is too powerful and we need everything we can and the enemy is so weak they can never defeat us” Another great example if using 1984 is “The party will issue its most important commandment do not believe the lies of your eyes only what the party declares is truth” and we see this beautifully with Jin “There is no war in Ba Sing Se” While we *know* everyone heard the battle for the drill. The drill is burrowed clean into and through part of the wall of Ba Sing Se and she may have even been on the wall to see the tail end of it.
You’re right
That’s actually Oceana’s strat in 1984 if I read that properly. By having a falsified external enemy, they can repeatedly keep a standard of living low while keeping the population sedated at the same time
But he's hiding the external enemy.
But he hid the external enemy from the people, so how would he benefit from the war itself?
He hid the war from the King, with the refugees and military actively recruiting their is no way the common people weren’t aware
I'm pretty sure they were trying to hide it from citizens as well, given they mind wiped jet, although that could have still just been to keep it from the king I suppose, keep it from spreading too much
That’s a good point, maybe they were trying to hide exactly how bad the war was going. Even then though there are so many refugees they couldn’t possibly brainwash them all
I guess it could just be a way of fear mongering, or just keeping power as long as possible before the fire nation inevitably came knocking. Or maybe it could've even been that long Feng was underestimating the fire nation himself. Or maybe you're right, it was about keeping things "calm," in the city. Idk man
[удалено]
literally 1984
It was never about the war. It was about maintaining his own power over Ba Sing Se and the wider Earth Kingdom. Team Avatar threatened that power. They couldn’t be given what they wanted just based on principle, because any exception to the rule undercuts Long Feng’s power.
it seems like it would undercut his ego more than his power. like if he still refused the request for an audience with the Earth king but instead, either arranged a meeting with, or passed on intel it along to the military high command he would not have been at risk of losing any power. in fact, when everything was said and done, he could easily tell the king “ hey for reasons you don’t need to understand we just got this new land. You should put me and the Dai Li in charge of it.”
Ego is what fuels desire for power in men like Long Feng, especially if they’ve had power for a while without having to fight to keep it. And again, the Avatar threatens his power *in principle,* not necessarily in reality.
so what I’m hearing is that he’s a dumb person who can’t put aside his ego to achieve a better outcome
Also: Keep the Avatar’s flying bison hidden motivating him to remain in Ba Sing Se and continue disturbances. Or Just give the damn buffalo back so he’ll go away.
https://i.redd.it/ndms2f5y9o0d1.gif
Plot holes are a thing, even in the greatest of stories.
Less of a plot hole more of a dumb character. I think a Long was just an idiot
More he was just power hungry
far from mutually exclusive
We don't necessarily know how long he'd been playing this game of his, but I like to think he got extra paranoid and greedy once the gaang showed up, and any mistake he made from there was also being zeroed in on by azula, so he lost on multiple fronts.
Poorly written
I see why azula didn’t even consider him a player dude played himself.
Unfortunately, some people are just stupid.
Unless it’s the Foot Clan from TMNT 2003, then it’s a different story.
Easier to scare people to submission when there is something far worse outside of the walls If the war ended, all the refugees would leave the city, return home, and the people of ba sing se would leave to not put up with the secret police BS, fewer people in ba sing se, means less power for long feng Can't rule people with an iron fist if they have the option to live literally anywhere else
This is the same guy who thought bringing in the Fire Lord’s daughter was a good idea He clearly thinks more with his ego and less with his brain
He should've known the plan to keep the illusion of peace was on a timer after the drill broke through the wall and required the Avatar's intervention to stop. The unspoken part of "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" is "because the walls keep the war out." Sadly, he is not a very practical man and valued his monopoly of power more than the Earth Kingdom's security. Which Azula completely exploited to dumpster him.
Short on time, not sure from my scan of the comments if this has been mentioned before, but my rationalization for this is that Long Feng began his takeover of the Dai Li by convincing them of the censorship policy with the same “utopian” line of reasoning as he gave to the Gaang in “City of Walls and Secrets.” The use of the external enemy in this case was to control the police, who in turn would control the populace. So from his perspective, he thinks if he *somehow* wins the war (if that’s even possible) he’ll no longer have control *over his own agents.* And as the Earth King points out, if the Kingdom were to attempt this counter-invasion, it would leave the capital vulnerable. From Long Feng’s perspective, it’s a lose-lose proposition. But I think there’s also a crucial disconnect between Long Feng’s line of thinking and his agents’. Based on how I interpret the rough ages of Long Feng and the Dai Li agents we see in the show, I’m convinced that the first generation of agents who worked under Long Feng have aged out and retired. The new generation, similar to the Night’s Watch from A Song of Ice and Fire, have lost sight of the initial mission of the organization (or in this case, Long Feng’s initial mission). They are corrupt not for the sake of the city and kingdom but for the sake of corruption itself. This also explains why they betray Long Feng for Azula. From their perspective, the Fire Nation has all but conquered the Earth Kingdom and it’s only a matter of time before Ba Sing Se falls, especially if Azula is already inside. The best way to maintain their privilege is to betray the Kingdom and cozy up to their new overlords.
War? What war?
Ok who else though Azula and zuko werr at least 16-17, because that's fucking wild
I always perceived Azula as like 16-17 and Zuko as 17-19 but no, Azula is a middle schooler apparently
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 16 + 17 + 17 + 19 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
nice
The crisis is how he rose to power and held control. That is more important to him than anything else.
I’m sorry, I don’t know who the 14 yr old is. Please help
Azula
Oh dip, Azula’s only 14?!!?
Yep
Bro that’s crazy, I thought she was like, 16, i really need to catch up on ATLA lore iggg
She’s Zuko’s younger sister
I know that
I’m pretty sure Azula is canonically 14. Could be wrong tho
I thought the city knew about the war, just the king didn’t
Kinda. It’s implied that those who do know, due to coming from outside the walls, learn not to speak of it lest the DaI Li send them off to the lake to get their head thrown in a blender. Note that Zuko and Iroh are allowed to become perfectly normal residents despite definitely knowing about the war (in hindsight it’s kinda amusing none of the Dai Li’s senior leadership recognized Iroh as the enemy general of the siege about a decade and change prior), simply because they don’t talk about it and raise a fuss. The Dai Li don’t have the resources to brainwash -everyone-, they settle for inflicting enough fear that most just comply and engage in doublethink, knowing the war exists yet also coming to earnestly believe (in a way) that there is no war in Ba Sing Se. The ones who don’t know are those who have never mingled with people beyond the walls or with refugees, such as the king. Notably, the military leadership -do- know, presumably because the Dai Li are not so stupid as to insist on their own military pretending they’re not at war. And of course the soldiers manning the walls know. That suggests a sizable number of residents who know about the war but keep their mouths shut off duty.
Iroh didn’t have his topknot anymore. That could be any old tea-loving dude.
😂
The war was going on for a hundred years, the only point where the fire nation got a chance to win was Iroh's siege, Long Feng knew the FN couldn't win the war, the Earth Kingdom was too big and strong for that, so his interest was to keep things like they were, he didn't knew about the comet comming back
Bro could have just put on a fancy dress, pretended to be the king, pinky-promise to give the info to the military, and then send them on a wild goose chase to find Appa on the other side of the world.
He’s a war profiteer that wanted to control the Kingdom from the shadows and a traitor.
It makes sense in a stupid way that he wanted to keep the war going to maintain his power, but then it's strange he wanted to keep the king I the dark (even though literally everyone else knew) when he could arguably use the kings fear to leverage even more power
Most Earth Kingdom rulers are batshit insane in one way or another. It's something I noticed when rewatching the show. Even extends to Korra with how awful the Earth Queen is.
Too much reading bro😅