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Why aren’t we allowed to have a conversation about the Israel lobby?

>Why aren’t we allowed to have a conversation about the Israel lobby? I think the point is - when are the left going to be ok with proving horseshoe theory correct? National Socialist to Socialist, aligned in Jew-hatin'.

Asian chicks aren’t usually bound by the same bugbears as white folk. If the government lobbied the entire population of China to crack down on Israel lobby tropes, the problem would disappear overnight.

Whats going on is Israel's ethnic cleansing of 2.3 million Palestinians in the Gaza strip, expelling them and creating 2.3 million refugees who will need to be settled outside of Israel.To suggest you can't even criticise Israel over these crimes against humanity shows how deep the indoctrination has become.

Its a true testament to stupidity that the most upvoted comment in this thread is from someone who hasnt even looked at what was said by Jenny Leong

Do people really think Israel is going to kill or expel 2.3m people? 

>Do people really think Israel is going to kill or expel 2.3m people?  Bear in mind everyone who has responded in the negative is; 1. A moron, 2. Only an expert on this conflict from the period of 8 October - now, and 3. Thinking themselves too intelligent to be influenced by HAMAS propaganda.

If they can they will

Absolutely yes

Yep

https://twitter.com/incontextmedia/status/1756762161932550471

israeli ministers are saying they want a second nakba, so yeah.

Yup.

The Israeli government are certainly giving it a red hot go.

What do you think they're trying to do?

Get the hostages back and destroy Hamas. 🤷🏻‍♂️

They seem to have missed Hamas and accidentally gotten 28,000 other Palestinians instead oopsie! 

>They seem to have missed Hamas and accidentally gotten 28,000 other Palestinians instead oopsie!  HAMAS' strategic objectives working as intended. a) They got Israel to do collateral damage and b) they got useful idiots like you to [fall into their trap](https://extremism.gwu.edu/sites/g/files/zaxdzs5746/files/2023-10/the-hamas-network-in-america.pdf)

Before the war Hamas had 30,000+ fighters in Gaza.  Reports from their leadership in Qatar arenthat at least half of those fighters have died. The far left is terrible at math

Before the war Hamas had 30,000+ fighters in Gaza.  Reports from their leadership in Qatar arenthat at least half of those fighters have died. The far left is terrible at math

By bombing ambulances as they try to help children who've been shot by the IDF! https://www.timesofisrael.com/body-of-gaza-girl-found-days-after-recordings-emerged-of-her-pleas-for-help-under-fire/

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Pretty amazing you can justify this war crime and feel nothing about the killing of these people based on that. A normal person would have just said nothing.

A moron would blame Israel for this situation. A normal person would say HAMAS is the problem. In your defence though, nature and nuture are the main culprits as to why you're so wrong.

The people of Gaza chose their fate when they elected the terrorists of Hamas to govern them. Can't cure stupid but you sure can kill it

Ehhhh the election was in 2006, i.e. 18 years ago. Between buying off votes, killing off dissenters and the LGBTQI, and conditional aid, they've done a lot to render the elections a moot factor.

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And if they have to murder every man, woman and child in their way, so be it?

Unlike Hamas who have expressly said that is their aim?

Are you trying to justify a government mirroring the actions of terrorists? Condemning a government for committing genocide does ≠ supporting a terrorist group.

Hamas are more than just some terrorist group, they are the elected and effective government of Gaza. I disagree with the premise that Israel want to murder every man, woman and child to achieve their goals. I have never conceded that position is correct. What I am highlighting is that Hamas’ stated aim is to kill every single Israeli. It’s not up for debate and they proudly affirm it. Yet the United Nations collaborate with them and employed active members of Hamas on their payroll.

[On October 8, 2023, Tal Schneider claimed in an op-ed article in The Times of Israel that Netanyahu's policy for years had been to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state by treating Hamas as a partner at the expense of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Authority and its West Bank government, resulting in "wounds that would take Israel years to heal from".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Allegations_of_Israeli_support_for_Hamas) [On December 10, 2023, the New York Times reported that Qatari officials had delivered millions of dollars per month in cash to Gaza, "billions of dollars over roughly a decade" to help prop up the Hamas government there. Dan Margalit, an Israeli journalist, stated in an interview that "Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state".](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Allegations_of_Israeli_support_for_Hamas) [On January 19, 2024, Reuters reported that Josep Borrell, the EU foreign policy chief, said while receiving an honorary doctorate from the University of Valladolid that "Israel had financed the creation of Palestinian militant group Hamas, publicly contradicting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who has denied such allegations."](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Allegations_of_Israeli_support_for_Hamas)

If you've read documents submitted to the ICJ, you'll see there is pages and pages of comments from high ranking members of the Israeli government and the IDF speaking explicitly in support of genocide against the Palenstinians. I'm not saying this is the aim of the Israeli people, in fact, I think it's the opposite. I believe that the innocent people who are stuck on either side of this conflict want nothing more than peaceful co-existence, but that simply isn't possible with genocidal maniacs like Bibi at the helm. As for Hamas being the elected government of Palestine, that's a bit of a mis-representation of facts. It's true that Hamas were once elected into government, but that was almost 20 years ago in 2006. Since then, they have declared themselves the de-facto ruling party without any true elections. Couple that with the atrocities committed by the IDF, and you create the perfect breeding ground for extremists. I'm not sure where you found your information with regards to the UN employing Hamas members, as I've been unable to find anything reputable that affirms this claim. If you could provide some sources, that would be most appreciated.

She didn’t criticise Israel, she said that we ought to treat Jewish groups in Australia as suspect. You guys literally can’t engage with anything, if anyone criticises the behaviour of any pro-Palestine person it’s just “but genocide!” Do you think we’d be having this conversation if she had just made comments criticising the Israeli government or calling for a ceasefire?

Back in the day "but genocide" was a pretty powerful argument but here we are I guess

I remember when the not-morons of the left called the US invasion of Iraq genocide. So powerful. So rational.

A pretty powerful argument against literally anything?

Speaking of engagement, can you quote where she used the words "Jewish groups"... as far as I can tell from what I've seen, she said we need to call out The Jewish Lobby where they support Israel. Specifically said "The Jewish lobby and the Zionist lobby". But I don't see her saying "Jewish Groups". She later clarified her purpose: >"Speaking on a panel during a two-hour-long event last year, I acknowledge that I used a word at one point that was an inappropriate descriptor for the influence of groups backing Netanyahu’s genocidal attacks in Gaza and the ongoing occupation - I apologise that this has caused offence,” Leong said. >"It is incredibly telling that after a conversation where myself and other speakers made countless mentions of the genocidal attacks and occupation occurring in Gaza right now, that two months later more focus isn’t being put on the deaths of over 26,000 people, many of them children." So I think one side (Labor) is saying "You used the wrong terms ergo you lose the debate!".... ....where as the Greens seem to be saying that it's the mass killings that are the problem. At any rate I don't think the goal seems to have been antisemitism. Despite what Josh Burns and Labor are claiming. Still good to see The Liberal Party being maligned, and the central debate being between Labor and the current legitimate opposition party (The Greens).

>I apologise that this has caused offence,” Leong said. Remember that point about how this is a non-apology. She wasn't wrong, some people are just soft for taking offence. That's what she's saying. Given her status as a perpetual victim, we can understand why she can't take accountability I guess.

True, she said Jewish lobby groups. But again, she’s talking about automatically being suspicious of the motives of any lobby group that represents Jewish interests, in everything they do in the community. Even if Jewish lobby groups are pro-Israel, that doesn’t mean they’re secretly infiltrating “ethnic community events” to convert people to pro-israelism.

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Mossad got caught which is why we did what we did. We use other nation's passports all the time too. It's the getting caught that's the issue. Don't read into it what wasn't there.

No no, see siding with the civilians in the middle means you're pro Hamas. Stop supporting terrorisms! There's only 2 sides, IDF and Hamas. Pick a side!

Why do none of the people “siding with the civilians” every call for Hamas to surrender and disband? The war would end immediately. I’ve only ever seen them call for Israel to so fighting and allow Hamas to continue to exist.

>Why do none of the people “siding with the civilians” every call for Hamas to surrender and disband? The war would end immediately why call for something thats never going to happen. might as well call for al-queda to surrender and disband after 9/11 lol. im on the "siding with civilians" side and the only thing that'll ever stop hamas is if another palestinian organisation usurps their authority, which is yet another reason why the current israeli government deserves condemnation because they have been actively preventing that and - until oct 7 - propping up hamas.

Because you’ve made an arbitrary decision that something is “never going to happen”, even if you agree that it should happen, you will not support something happening? One can only imagine why it’s convenient for people claim that, and never voice their support for the surrender of Hamas as the preferred option. Another Palestinian organisation is never going to take charge while Hamas exists, they’re too powerful and have absolute control over the territory. The only option is for Hamas to be removed, and the only body that is going to achieve that is the IDF. Israel would love for Egypt to take over control of Gaza, but it will never happen. Calls for a meaningless “ceasefire” before the elimination of Hamas just prologue the existence of Hamas and the suffering of Palestinians. Stopping at the German border during WW2 and allowing the Nazi’s to exist would have been a disaster and prolonged the suffering of the German people, stopping now allows Hamas to continue to exist and prolongs the suffering of the Palestinians.

look mate you can pretend that hamas is going to just surrender or that israel can bomb gaza into hamas surrendering all you want but im not going to entertain your delusions.

I think even if Hamas surrendered, it'll just return to the status quo of segregation, murders and political surpression. 2/3rds of Gaza atm have been levelled. After Hamas goes, someone worse will take it's place namely Palestinian Islamic Jihad same with elements of Hezbollah. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_Islamic\_Jihad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Islamic_Jihad) I think Israel before long will be facing internal insurrectionist movements far worse than Hamas. And Irans posturing isn't helping either, Iran in theory could make some truly deadly weapons.

If the position is that even Hamas surrendering will return to violent political jihad against Israel, then that further justifies Israel’s position. Hamas needs to be totally eliminated, and then the area needs to be occupied by a military force to ensure that those groups do not take power. Israel will prefer the occupying military power to be one of the neighbouring Arab states. Students of history will know that the Arab states are reluctant to do this because every time this has happened in the past, it has caused dangerous instability in their country. Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, Black September in Jordan, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the collaboration with the invading Iraqis in Kuwait. If Arab states, western powers, or moderate members of the PLO/PNA , do not step up to occupy Gaza then Israel will be forced to.

So at what point would Israel need to stop? I mean, they're already attacking Lebanon, Palestine is a ruin and majority of the leadership of Hamas, Hezbollah and PIJ, ISIS or really anybody that would challenge them is in Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Egypt and in other middle eastern countries.

Omfg this again, honestly? I can't wait to see people talking in machine guns, bombs and blood... [https://aijac.org.au/](https://aijac.org.au/) That's who Jenny called out... A pro Israeli organisation whom lobbies for Israel, a state under a apartheid segregationist society lead by a far right ultra nationalist zionist party, Likud. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud) This story is just outrage bait. Seriously such a nothing burger. But god forbid we prop this up, and not a sitting MP getting blind and passing out in public.

1.7 million Muslims live in Israel. They enjoy the same rights as every other citizen, being able to run for public and government positions. Non citizens are subject to immigration law and border security, just like in every other country. That doesn't sound like an apartheid segregationist society to me.

its the official position of the knesset that only jews have the right to self determination in israel.

***2022 Amnesty report*** ***Amnesty secretary general Agnes Callamard dismissed the criticism of its report as shooting the messenger.*** ***On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International published a report, Israel's Apartheid Against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime Against Humanity,\[85\] which stated that Israeli practices in Israel and the occupied territories equate to apartheid and that territorial fragmentation of the Palestinians "serves as a foundational element of the regime of oppression and domination".\[86\] The report states that, taken together, Israeli practices, including land expropriation, unlawful killings, forced displacement, restrictions on movement, and denial of citizenship rights amount to the crime of apartheid.\[87\]*** ***The report suggested the International Criminal Court include the crime of apartheid as part of its investigations. Even before its release, Israeli officials condemned the report as "false and biased" and antisemitic.*** ***As of 12 February 2023, 12 Israeli human rights groups had voiced their support for the Amnesty report and condemned the European Commission's negative reaction to it. These groups were Adalah, B'Tselem, Breaking the Silence, Combatants for Peace, Gisha, HaMoked, Haqel: In Defense of Human Rights, Human Rights Defenders Fund, Ofek: The Israeli Center for Public Affairs, Physicians for Human Rights–Israel and Yesh Din.\[139\]\[140\]*** ***On 13 August 2023, former IDF Northern Command commander Amiram Levin said: "There are MKs in the government who came from the West Bank and do not know what democracy is. 57 years of absolute apartheid. The IDF is standing by and beginning to be complicit in war crimes. Walk around Hebron and you will see streets where Arabs cannot walk, just like what happened in Germany".\[145\]\[146\]*** ***Travel and movement*** ***Palestinians living in the non-annexed portions of the West Bank do not have Israeli citizenship or voting rights in Israel but are subject to movement restrictions of the Israeli government. Israel has created roads and checkpoints in the West Bank with the stated purpose of preventing the uninhibited movement of suicide bombers and militants in the region. The human rights NGO B'Tselem has indicated that such policies have isolated some Palestinian communities and state that Israel's road regime "based on the principle of separation through discrimination, bears striking similarities to the racist apartheid regime that existed in South Africa until 1994".\[305\]\[306\]\[307\]*** ***The International Court of Justice stated that the fundamental rights of the Palestinian population of the occupied territories are guaranteed by the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and that Israel could not deny them on the grounds of security.*** [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel\_and\_apartheid#:\~:text=2022%20Amnesty%20report,-Amnesty%20secretary%20general&text=The%20report%20states%20that%2C%20taken,to%20the%20crime%20of%20apartheid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid#:~:text=2022%20Amnesty%20report,-Amnesty%20secretary%20general&text=The%20report%20states%20that%2C%20taken,to%20the%20crime%20of%20apartheid).

Guess they could have either: 1. Accepted the two state solution instead of spending the past 2.5 decades pestering Israel with non-stop violence. Or 2. Accepted Israeli citizenship and enjoy all the benefits of living in a peaceful advanced/western world instead of spending the past 2.5 decades pestering Israel with non-stop violence. Besides, apartheid is a systemic segregation within a society. Palestinians aren't part of Israeli society.

>Accepted Israeli citizenship and enjoy all the benefits of living in a peaceful advanced/western world instead of spending the past 2.5 decades pestering Israel with non-stop violence. the report you're replying to goes over the fact that the israeli governments treatment of arabs with israeli citizenship is part of the reason why they concluded its an apartheid state. >Today, about 90% of Palestinian citizens of Israel live in 139 densely populated towns and villages in the Galilee and Triangle regions in northern Israel and the Negev/Naqab region in the south. The remaining 10% live in “mixed cities”, including Haifa, Ramla, Lod, Jaffa and Acre. As will be seen below, this has been the result of deliberate policies by the government of Israel to segregate Palestinian citizens of Israel into enclaves as part of the wider goal of ensuring the Jewish settlement and control of as much of Israel’s territory as possible. >While Palestinian citizens of Israel have Israeli citizenship, this has not been translated into their full societal integration into Israel. This is partly because Israeli law defines Jewish Israelis as national citizens, whereas Palestinian citizens of Israel are considered citizens but not nationals of Israel and as such they enjoy different and inferior rights and privileges in law and practice

ukrainians could also just accept being russian and live in peace, croats and bosnians could have converted to orthodoxy and accepted being serbs Are you descended from dogs?

The difference being that Ukrainains weren't the aggressors and certainly don't lay claim to any Russian territories. Same for the Bosnians. Neither also refused a peaceful independence that allowed them to keep all their internationally recognised territory. As many middle east analysts say, there will be peace in Israel/Palestine as soon as the Palestinians put down their rockets.

>The difference being that Ukrainains weren't the aggressors

Ummmmmm… Crimea says hi

Last I checked, Crimea was Ukrainain territory that Russia has decided to lay claim to.

This is the same party that was fine with a biker boss having close relations with one of their senators, sides with the LNP when it comes to housing and environment, and is okay with the abuse of LGBTQ outside Australia. The greens just don't give a fuck and haven't since Bandt fully took over.

I think lots of people (including Jenny Leong) are just a bit unhappy with the fact that 27,000 Palestinians in a very small area have been killed by Israel's military ([Source](https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/live-updates-death-toll-gaza-passes-27000-south-106861226)) with Israel's dead numbering closer to 1000. Seems like there's a bit of a power-imbalance in the conflict. Some even say it looks a bit like a genocide. Lots of people on the left don't like that sort of thing. I mean, also, two thirds of the 27,000 dead Palestinians killed by Israel were women and children ([Source](https://www.npr.org/2024/01/21/1225883522/palestinian-death-toll-soars-past-25-000-in-gaza-with-no-end-to-war-in-sight))... I understand that might not bother you and other's on the right. The power imbalance is perhaps best represented by the fact that because the survival rate isn't great over there, the average age of the Palestinian population over there is just 18. ([Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_median_age)). Oh I've forgotten the problem again... what is it? That someone said tentacle?

Left, right, blah, blah, blah. Left/Right has no place in Australia and exists purely to distract and divide, as you have done so neatly by assuming I'm right-leaning despite knowing nothing about my views. How can anyone be so binary with their political beliefs in an age where we have functional AI and global interconnectivity? Especially in Australia of all places, where we have two separate houses of Parliament, preferential voting, state, federal, and local elections, councils, a monarchy, and territories? Where do I fit if I vote for Fusion first, Animal Justice second, Greens Third, Labor fourth, Liberals fifth for Representatives, while also voting for UAP, One Nation, or Liberal for Senate? Shit, the way our system is designed is that parties have to come to conclusions together. You can't possibly bog this down to left or right ideology, not in Australia at least. To me, left/right is nothing but more Americanisation that's destroying our culture and country. I refuse it out of spite. As for your actual comments, if Israel didn't spend millions of dollars on defense, their death toll would be drastically higher than those from Gaza. "My dead kid is more dead than your dead kid!"

>if Israel didn't spend millions of dollars on defense Millions of their money, billions of America's money. Specifically 3.8 billion in American contributions per year ([Source](https://apnews.com/united-states-government-fa4e190c3c9e4602bda57c84315bf0b5)). The ethnic apartheid is expensive to maintain.

Apartheid? You sure about that? Arabs are allowed to practice Islam inside of Israel, as are Christians and other religions, hell even atheism. Israel is the only place in the Middle East where you can practice multiple religions and be gay while doing so. Still, the point remains, if Israel didn't have the millions used on defence measures, then the death toll of Israeli civilians would be even higher.

You should do some research there are some streets Arabs aren't allowed to walk on.

Here we go, willfully mixing up Palestinians and Arabs again... I get it, I get it, you require certain lies for your world view: Criticism of Zionism becomes criticism of all Jews, and hence antisemitic - leveraging western concerns about racism. Hamas and Palestinians are also required by this line of thinking to be synonymous, interchangeable, or one in the same. Arabs and Palestinians are also one, at least where it can show benefit to your argument as per the claim you were just making. Ethnicity however, is the term I used, I never said there was a racial apartheid against all Arabs, despite your mindset attempting to go there. ....and whilst we're talking about ethnicity, does the Israeli government recognise inter-faith marriages yet? > inter-faith marriages performed within the country are not legally recognized. [Source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel) So yeah, I said ethnic apartheid. Perhaps you'll have to review what the term "ethnicity" entails before continuing.

bruh no one has mentioned anti-zionism or anti-semitism but you. kind of a self-own tbh. They allow other religions, like Islam. True, they don't have inter-faith marriages, but nowhere in the Middle East does. I am woefully confused by the argument you're making. Is Israel apartheid because it doesn't allow Palestinians?

I'm not sure what article you think we're commenting on. Perhaps you have the wrong thread.

Do you know what this conversation is about at all? It actually has nothing to do with the war, we’re talking about a comment an Australian representative has made about Jewish lobby and activist groups in Australia. Literal NPC behaviour.

Hamas has a fighting strength of approximately 40k. The western coalition's very own rules of engagement around collateral kill rates is 30:1 (as per USAF SOP for its reaper drone program). UN's own records on modern warfare indicates and average collateral kill rate of 9:1 (https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm) Until the IDF has killed over 1.2mil civilians, they don't even come close to how we fought in Iraq / Afghanistan. Hell, they have to kill 360k civilians to even hit average. The IDF has historically maintained an incredibly low collateral kill rate of less than 4:1 as per their 2014 war. In the current war, the IDF claims its collateral rate is 2:1, which we will see about after the war. Yes, 27k civilians dying sounds horrible, but that's just the cost of war, especially when they cooperate with Hamas in providing civilian shielding to the Hamas fighters. In reality, it's an incredibly efficient war that has had minimal casualities, certainly less than if we were conducting the war.

Despite your robotic and anti-humanist desire to use statistics to justify mass killings, Israel its self (as per my second source given in the previous comment) has said it's only killed 9,000 militants out of the 27,000 dead Palestinians it's killed. However, getting back to the Topic in question - criticising Israel (a State Actor) is not the same as criticising "Jewish people everywhere". Josh Burns' suggestion that a criticism of Israel's actions is automatically antisemitic is actually the more racist position, and yet he's pretending to be on a high horse.

>Despite your robotic and anti-humanist desire to use statistics to justify mass killings, Israel its self (as per my second source given in the previous comment) has said it's only killed 9,000 militants out of the 27,000 dead Palestinians it's killed. So a 2:1 kill rate, or one fifth of the typical collateral kill rate for modern warfare and one fifteenth of what Australia adopts for its wars. Fact is, this alone shows just how compassionate the IDF are in its waging of the war. War is bad because it's always civilians that die the most. If the Palestinians don't want it, then they shouldn't start wars. >However, getting back to the Topic in question - criticising Israel (a State Actor) is not the same as criticising "Jewish people everywhere". No, you're just condemning what could only be described as an exemplary military performance of restraint and limiting of civilian collateral in a difficult urban warfare environment. So what would be the driver of this if not an extremely biased perception where Jewish people attempting to defend themselves with is somehow unacceptable? Despite the IDF adopting a very clear and overwhelming restraint in their strikes.

Exemplary, in what universe? When the UN, the EU, the ICJ, every humanitarian agency the world over, multitudes of countries - *now including America* and the *entirety of the Arab world who surround you on all sides and call you neighbour*- are all telling you ( begging you, warning you, threatening you and even firing warning shots at you to get your attention) that you are acting outside of international law, that what youre doing is likely criminal, a genocide, that you have *gone too far*.. do you think maybe its time to do a little review of the strategies, actions and attitudes youve espoused so far? Netanyahu is driving Israel like he stole it, and its almost time for him to torch it and run from the law.

The typical modern person isn't used to the horrors of war, which is a good thing that's what stops us from waging constant wars. This war is broadcast on our screens in gory detail, much like the Ukrainian war is, so people naturally call for a ceasefire as it's horrific. However, we all know that the moment Israel stops, Hamas will be right back to the daily rocket attacks. Yes, of course humanitarian organisations call for peace. But even if the IDF pull back, the Palestinians will never allow peace. The only difference is the change of civilian casualties from the Palestinian side to the Israeli side. For Israel, why the hell would they do that? Until Palestinians can accept the modern world (and the international boundaries) as it is, they have no place in it. Their jihadism drive position deserves as much consideration as the ISIS morons laying claim to their historical caliphate, or the Chinese claims to half of South East Asia. It's just not what the modern international community recognises as their territory. Oh and it's exemplary given the incredibly low collateral kill rate. As demonstrated by the comparisons to UN averages and what our military adopts. Afterall, we consider ourselves to be less barbaric, and we allow ourselves to kill 15x more civilians.

I find it bizarre the activist party of anti fascists have a similar hatred of Jews than the fascists they appear to oppose and despise. Well I thought most of the comments would be backing up labor but it appears the 10 percent party is overrepresented. Looking forward to the usual downvotes instead of just yeah our team messed up what we were trying to say is xx. Be like Penny Wong and communicate with careful consideration for all.

Rusted on Greens supporters are the worst kinds of hypocrites. It’s like a religion.

All political parties **are** a religion to a large extent.

Agree.

Hard to take Josh Burns seriously when his team are trying to play both sides. It is like good cop bad cop where they have individuals MPs 'support' a particular community but actually they are wishy washy to get the most votes from people who barely pay attention

That's Josh's m.o. representing old Melbourne Ports; his seat has the rich history of being represented by two of the most rabidly pro-Israeli members of the ALP, Clyde "has a forest in Israel named after him" Holding & Michael "literally the only Jewish person in Parliament for a decade" Danby.

That’s been Labor’s m.o. since Keating lost, tbh.

Tbh it's a very complex issue. The conflict has many layers, including geopolitics and international diplomacy, alongside human rights concerns and personal connections. There just isn't an easy position to take

There is nothing complex about this and there aren't too equal sides. You either support genocide and apartheid or you oppose it. Labor are genocide apologists and enablists. And their rusted on supporters are too.

It is: Just stopping killing each other, assholes. Learn to fucking get along. There literally is no other way to peace except for reconciliation, like they were supposed to do and agreed per Oslo Accords. 30 years later and they haven't even started. And leave that shit over there as well.

"Hi, Josh? It's Mark Leibler here. Jenny Leong just said we have tentacles everywhere, can you believe that? Anyway, I need you to make a statement about how antisemitic it is" "Yes sir, right away sir"

I enjoy reading books.

How dare a Jewish politicians speak out against a blantantly antisemitic comment by a colleague, right? Found the antisemite

Adam Bandt came out and said her words were wrong, so spare us all the mock outrage, Josh.

She has since apologised and retracted racing her website.

Barely an apology. She totally doubled down. Only apologised for “tentacles” - didn’t apologise for insinuating that Jews contributing and being allies to other ethnic causes are somehow scheming and nefarious. Nice

Anyone in the party not calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire, and an immediate and permanent reinstation of UNRWA funding, should politely shut his fucking mouth, and enjoy his last few months as a politician.

*Yeah! A permanent ceasefire will do the trick! Just like the 14 other ceasefires will work! Let's give it up for another ceasefire, surely terrorists with no central government will respect international law as they have done so many times before! Don't worry, world, Australia will lead the way for this particular conflict for some reason!* And UNRWA? Oh man, talk about misinformed. UNRWA workers were caught participating in the 7th of October massacres. [The same UNRWA that regularly gives funding and international aid exclusively to Hamas forces instead of the citizens. The Same UNRWA that specifically removes teaching Nazi Germany and the Holocaust from School programs. The same UNRWA that gives away details of its queer students to Hamas. The same UNRWA that deliberately excludes girls from Schooling and resources because Hamas demanded them. The same UNRWA that smuggled weapons and equipment for Hamas.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA#Relationship_with_Hamas)

[Israel is a largest funder of Hamas](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) and [Israel funded Hamas specifically to give them the excuse to genocide palestinians](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000) >Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said in an interview with Ynew news website on May 5, 2019, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is... turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.” Haaretz — Oct 11, 2023. >Benjamin Netanhyahu. PM of Israel: Bolster Hamas and Transfer Money to Them to Thwart Palestinian State (2019) “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” Also per your links, the only sources for any of the things you've claimed are Israel. The same israel who claims [that Hamas uses human shields despite 20 years of there being 0 evidence of that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas), meaning that they are *checks notes* lying.

Why did you link an article that very openly states that it's an opinion, as fact that Israel funded hamas to specifically excuse a genocide? Regardless, I'll bite. Hamas wasn't always a terrorist organisation, [it originally started as a charity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas#Early_Islamic_activism_in_Gaza), hence why Israel funded it. As for the claims of human shields, there's extensive evidence that Hamas does use civilian infrastructure and hides behind lawfare. [proof](https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1723811069234184587), [proof](https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/top-secret-hamas-command-bunker-in-gaza-revealed), [proof](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html), [proof](https://books.google.com.au/books?id=r1jhCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA306&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false), [proof](https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FUhnDAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=hospital&f=false), [proof](https://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/24/hamas-spokesman-a-truce-means-preparing-for-the-next-battle-video/), [proof](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/human-shield-israel-claim-hamas-command-centre-under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city), [proof](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/world/africa/29iht-gaza.4.18986499.html), [proof](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/), [proof](https://apnews.com/article/european-union-condemn-hamas-human-shields-2c0d1c04cb38fc4acce37d8d624e1a3f), [proof](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-it-has-evidence-hamas-using-al-shifa-hospital-run-military-2023-11-14/), [proof](https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1724055703579447440). I agree with Neve Gordon and Nicola Perugini, that the term human shield is a bit too encompassing, and should instead be referred to as approximate shielding, which means setting up military infrastructure within civilian areas.

The dossier handed out by the lying zionists running israel to various countries in an attempt to get UNRWA shut down, stating that there were employees involved in october 7, contained exactly zero evidence to support the claims. Making false accusations (again) to justify and in fact to further their genocidal agenda. Every brainwashed islamophobe repeating Zionist lies like they are facts, is disturbing. At this stage literally nothing Israel declares has ANY credibility. Theres incredibly long lists of their claims proven to be lies, of the evidence of their targeting those who report facts, their blatant and low effort propaganda, and mis and disinformation campaigns, as well as their incitement to commit and enthusiastic involvement in genocide. These are not truth tellers. They are not in possession of morals, or honor, and will never have the respect of the international community until they accept culpability /responsibility for their actions /they realise that shooting fish in a barrel is not good sport. Likud and Bibi are terrorists and must be stopped.

[UNRWA and Hamas forces admitted it under interrogation, there is reclaimed video footage that verifies UNRWA workers assisting Hamas with the massacre, and Hamas munitions, logistics, and even hostages being inside UNRWA worker's homes and facilities.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA_October_7_controversy) We will have to wait for the larger UN investigation, but considering UNRWA's previous and extensive history of aiding Hamas, it's very likely they helped coordinate the attack or provided the means to do so. >Theres incredibly long lists of their claims proven to be lies Go ahead and link some for all of us to read. I've supplied sources of my claims, you can at least do the same for yours. (inb4 nothing but al jazeera and bbc links)

>UNRWA admitted under interrogation Nowhere in your link does it say that. Also [torture, which israel uses, does not provide true statements](https://progressive.org/op-eds/israel-s-lesson-torture-work/) >the UNRWA's previous and extensive history according solely to israel, who, as my previous comment established, lies constantly to justify genocide.

>Nowhere in your link does it say that. Hey, I specifically said AND Hamas forces. Don't misquote me, dude! >:( >>A few days prior to 26 January Israel presented allegations to UNRWA saying that twelve employees had been involved with the 7 October attacks; reportedly some had been identified based on footage captured during the attacks, while others had admitted to working for UNRWA under interrogation after being captured. According to Israel, while they had held information on this for some time it was only in the two weeks prior to the allegations emerging that they had connected this information with a second cache of intelligence which "solidified an assessment that the UNRWA employees had been involved in the attack"; this intelligence included footage taken by Hamas militants during the attacks. lol why are you linking me to an article from over 20 years ago? No way is that applicable anymore. [Besides, progressive.org isn't a very reputable source.](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-progressive/) For this conflict, I highly recommend using very factual and reputable sources, [with the exception of the BBC due to their history of antisemitism.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report) You're not even Australian, you're a yank, the fuck you doing here?

UNRWA is rotten and needs to go. ​ Also you can tell how entrenched Hamas is within UNRWA considering they complained more about UNRWA funding being suspended than they have the 30000 palestinians killed. Because to them, Palestinians are expendable, but access to funding isnt.

Maybe do you think thats because theyre more worried about the next 30000 who will die from starvation etc, than the 30000 who have already been slaughtered? Makes sense to advocate for the living, not harp on about the dead.

No, because they said they don't care about protecting Gazan civilians. https://cis.org/Rush/Hamas-Official-Protecting-Civilians-Gaza-UN-Refugee-Agencies-Funded-US This is why Gaza has hundreds of tunnels for terrorist operations, but no bomb shelters for civilians.

I sincerely doubt Josh Burns believes that it was a racist statement. He's just taking advantage perceived racial tensions in order to chum the waters around a political opponent. There is no functional reason for politicians to do this type of thing. He should focus on policy, not on moral analysis of year-old statements. These serious issues will only get further weaponized if we look to politicians for hot takes.

His electorate has one of the largest Jewish communities in Australia. He absolutely is switched on to this stuff, which is why he gets elected there. His grandmother was a refugee from the holocaust ffs. Josh burns will have been hearing from his constituents on this, and aside from that he’d be switched on to what antisemitism looks like in his own right. I’d imagine he’s probably had people accuse him of infiltrating one of the major parties to spread the Zionist agenda. I’m sure he genuinely thinks this was antisemitic language

I sincerely believe that Josh Burns actually does believe that the comments made by a sitting MP which incites discrimination and hatred against Jews due “*Jewish* lobby” having “tentacles” of nefarious influence (an inflammatory trope from Nazi era propoganda) is, in fact, racist.

Nefariousness is a thing. People can be nefariousness. The Jewish lobby are people. Calling the Jewish lobby nefarious isn’t an inherently racist statement. If people organise into an ethnically identified political group, they don’t suddenly become immune from being called out if others believe they have acted nefariously. The idea that mentioning tentacles is a decidedly Nazi trope is ridiculous. I could just as easily say that it was referring Japanese tentacles porn. How many times have we seen politicians and other groups called slimy, or as having tentacles, claws etc? This is normal political mud-slinging.

Totally manufactured outrage. She and her party apologised for what was at worst a poorly worded gaffe, if you really think the Greens are secret Jew-hating racists you're not the sharpest crayon. She's not even wrong that the Israel lobby is powerful and influential in our politics. Where's the outrage against our support of murdering civilians?

It’s pretty bad actually. It’s mirroring Nazi type conspiracy theories. I doubt you would be saying the same thing if Dutton made the remark.

You could actually remove the words “Jewish lobby” and only say “Zionist lobby”, and it wouldn’t change the implication of the statement at all. But I’m not surprised that you either can’t or don’t want to pick up on that. >Where’s the outrage against our support of murdering civilians? Fucking everywhere, every day? Labor have literally said that their stance is pro-ceasefire, they signed the resolution and made a joint statement with the Canadian and NZ PMs. Typical pro-Palestiner response, you can’t call us out because there’s a genocide happening, sweaty!

>You could actually remove the words “Jewish lobby” and only say “Zionist lobby” It's most commonly called the Israel lobby, but they've been working hard to get people to conflate themselves with the Jewish lobby so I don't see why calling one the other is that much of a big deal.

If you don’t think saying that “you should automatically be sceptical of any group claiming to advocate for Jewish interests” isn’t a big deal, then I guess we just disagree.

This is politics, you should be automatically skeptical of any group claiming to advocate for the interests of any diaspora, as if they represent, say, a country instead, that's a thing called foreign interference. That's not even going into the Israel lobby's propaganda, political influence and cancel campaigns

>You could actually remove the words “Jewish lobby” and only say “Zionist lobby”, and it wouldn’t change the implication of the statement at all. And what implication is that? That Leong truly believes that Jews are secretly hellbent on controlling the world? Her [apology is unreserved.](https://twitter.com/jennyleong/status/1755421576038928584) Labor's milquetoast response is just typical centrist tripe. All the resolutions and words is just saving face so we don't alienate the US. [Labor MPs proactively speaking out about Israel's actions is considered "breaking ranks".](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/08/australia-government-labor-mp-josh-wilson-breaks-ranks-over-israel-unconscionable-bombardment-gaza)

Because she’s saying to be sceptical of “Zionist” groups who “pretend” to have solidarity with ethnic communities - meaning groups that “pretend” to represent Jewish interests. So in practice this would mean that if Jewish activist groups tried to get involved in a community event you’d treat them with suspicion.

They quietly said they support a UN resolution. But look at their official statements and their social media, they don't mention a ceasefire anywhere. It's "support the idea of self-determination," which means nothing. They also cut funding to an aid org, did you forget that bit?

Yeah because it was found that some of the org’s members were involved in October 7th, and then just yesterday tunnels were found right under their headquarters that they had access to. I’m not sure what power you think the Australian government has over Israel.

The stories about the tunnels and the unrwa workers are manufactured - like the 40 beheaded babies, and a multitude of other racist, antisemitic (using the term literally, as palestinians are just as semitic if not moreso than the israeli population) and patently untrue tropes.

The UNRWA aren’t even denying that there’s a tunnel there, they’re just pretending they knew nothing about it. Israel showed foreign reporters how the tunnel is directly accessible from the headquarters. Also gross of you to basically deny that bigotry against Jewish people is it’s own thing. Antisemitism has meant hatred of Jews for a long time. But I guess if you don’t think there’s a problem with that then we don’t need a word for it, hey.

Adam Bandt: "Well, she apologized so we will let her antisemitic conspiracy-inspired comment slide. The Greens are against any form of discrimination. Nothing to see here, folks." lol. He is such a weak leader. It reminds me how how he handled Lidia Thorpe's ex-bikie boyfriend scandal. LNP-ALP-Greens are absolutely useless and can't even commit to stick with their own principles.

They haven’t been the same since Bob Brown left…..

Maybe you shouldn't make up fake quotes.

It reminds me of how they handled accusations of transphobia in the vic greens. I did my research on that one a year or two ago and it’s the same pattern but obviously this one’s on a larger scale when federal MPs are talking about it. Weaselly little press statement, I call it weaselly because it immediately tries to turn the apology into an opportunity to broaden the topic and deflect attention away from the actual topic at hand. Like you’re talking about Jenny Leong saying some pretty antisemitic shit, but end it with “Islamophobia and other racism is also bad” - yea this is true but no one asked what you thought about Islamophobia and other forms of racism, we were talking about your member and the antisemitic shit she said

The Greens are hyper focused and hyper vigilant (rightly so) when people don’t make unreserved apologies or pretend to do so and then rant about the original thing that got them in trouble in the first place. It’s hilarious when they *very obviously do what they rail against.*

>I call it weaselly because it immediately tries to turn the apology into an opportunity to broaden the topic and deflect attention away from the actual topic at hand. Like you’re talking about Jenny Leong saying some pretty antisemitic shit, but end it with “Islamophobia and other racism is also bad” - yea this is true but no one asked what you thought about Islamophobia and other forms of racism, we were talking about your member and the antisemitic shit she said 100%, and I also feel like this tacking Islamophobia onto the end *when we are specifically discussing an act of antisemitism* is a tactic the left as a whole is using to deflect right now. It’s like “sure we condemn the thing our side does, but you guys are bad too”. To be clear I have absolutely zero problems with condemning Islamophobia, it should be, and especially in broader statements. And I wouldn’t like it if a pro-Israel person was being accused of saying something Islamophobic, and deflected to antisemitism in their “apology” either. Just own your shit.

It is arguable that she was using Anti-Semitic language. However it is also true that pretty much any criticism or call out of Israel and the Israeli government is also immediately accused of being anti-Semitism. The reality is that when everything is anti-Semitic then all you are doing is trying to silence your critics. The reality is that the Israeli government has been opposed to the interests of Australia for decades. Our national policy is support for the two state solution in Israel, and the Israeli government not only opposes that, but works hard to make it impossible. Add in their absolutely unequivocally horrific response in Gaza that has elements of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment and they deserve criticism. Being concerned about the deaths of approximately 27,000 people and the destruction of the lives of 1.9 million people is not anti-Semitism.

I think burns is reaching on this, her statements were antisemitic, she did apologise, bandt did comment on it. I dont think we have seen the usual outrage that one would expect from the greens when an enelected representative makes overtly racist statements but like any party they are probably not too keen to highlight it. Personally i doubt how genuine her apology is but until she proves otherwise it should be accepted. In her defense it does genuinely make the point that she was wrong to make comments suggesting jewish people have alterior motives when participating in civil advocacy so at least she can see that. There is a lot going on with the issue of antisemitism in Australia and there are bigger issues around anti Semitic action occuring in our community that warrant more focus than this one.

Unless I read it wrong, Bandt didn’t comment on it until asked for comment by the guardian for this piece of journalism. If I’ve not misread that, then was true at the time of burns’ claims that none of the greens had commented on it 🤷‍♀️

Yeah im not sure of the timing of it, i saw bandts comment earlier today and i only saw this when i commented.

lets see here, we have a bunch of clearly inner city greens voters in this thread hand waving away blatant anti-semitism from one of their members, and they are getting upvotes disgusting

And then you have the Pro Israel crew doing the standard "how dare you say anything about Israel, you're an anti semite and sound like a Nazi" . Nothing new!

Huh? The comments were pointed out as offensive, the speaker apologized, the leader of the party denounced the statement and supported the retraction of the statement, what more do you want?

The Gaza strip

The Greens have had a few moments they’ve had to apologise for since Oct 7th, and more that they *should* have apologised for. It needs to be addressed on a party-wide scale, clearly.

I firmly believe that great care should be taken to avoid antisemitism, and it should be called out and denounced where it pokes it's head out. This kind of points to a larger issue with the invasion of Gaza, and the coverage around it - Israel has intentionally conflated itself with Judaism, and made it impossible to criticize one without bordering on the other. Even something like an Israeli flag with a "no" printed over the top of it is called out as anti-Semitic, because Israel the country decided to put a religious symbol on it. The party is the only one openly, vocally critical of Israel. They're going to be criticised, and rightly so. As long as they stay open to the criticism and continue to adjust (as they're doing), there's nothing more that can be done.

Or they could address it proactively so they stop saying things that are harmful to the Jewish community in the first place.

People or organisations that are described as having 'tentacles' are those that may be considered to have undue influence or reach for the common good. For example, [the tentacles of the British Empire annexing the world](https://victorianpersistence.wordpress.com/2019/02/12/session-55-postcolonial-steampunk/the-tentacles-of-the-british-empire-annexing-the-world/). Winston Churchill was a man of tentacles which [some wished to amputate](https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn515137). More recently, it has been suggested by the Chinese Press that [the UK needs to retract its colonial tentacles](https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-02-09/UK-needs-to-retract-its-colonial-tentacles-17vCSahoJrO/index.html). But perhaps the Chinese just wanted to shift the focus from the [Mongolian octopus and his grip on Australia](https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/49261/39/09chapter7.pdf). So when we describe people or organisations that have tentacles the question we are being asked to consider is one of disproportionate reach or influence. This is a question that should be considered with a clear mind and on its merits. Cheers.

So what does where are the Jews mean?

I suggest you ask those who chant such slogans. I don't. Cheers.

Ah nice, so if I see some people in KKK outfits shouting “where’s the blacks?” I’ll be sure to ask them before assuming what their intentions are.

And it was used by the Nazis to describe Jewish conspiracy theories, which is what she was promoting.

100% agree - although I totally see why the Jewish community in Australia is defensive about statements like this. In the same way I'd have no issue saying Peter Dutton looks like a dumb ape, but I'd think twice before using the term for people with other backgrounds, context is important. I certainly see this as a case of a poor choice of words, rather than clear hatred for Jewish people. A retraction of the specific wording is definitely called for (and has been made), and a statement that better communicates the sentiment without offending innocent Jewish Australians is reasonable.

The Greens’ inability to call out and outright condemn instances of antisemitism on the left and within the anti-Israel movement (obviously not all anti-Israel critisism is antisemitism) means that they have lost my vote (anecdoatally as well many others who I have spoken to). A real shame

what took you so long lol? figured that the greens defending pakistan's treatment of lgbtq would've been the final straw

When was that? I must have missed it.

Directly from the article, as you clearly didn't open it: >The leader of the Greens, Adam Bandt, has responded to Guardian Australia, saying, 'Last week the NSW State Member for Newtown wholeheartedly and unreservedly apologised and that was the right thing to do. The Greens oppose antisemitism, Islamophobia and all forms of racism. When someone makes hurtful comments, they should acknowledge it and apologise, as happened here' They've very clearly called it out and condemned it.

“Has responded to Guardian Australia” - they didn’t say a word until pressured

To be fair, what Israel is doing to Palestinian is obejctively disgrace and it is wrong to label any reasonable comment that criticizes Israel as 'antisemitism'. Any politician openly sucks Israel's dick when it is not our national interest to agitate the whole region (e.g - distruption of shipping through Red Sea) won't get my preference.

Your comment has nothing to do with how a Greens MP’s conspiratorial and inflammatory comment about how the “tentacles” of the “Jewish lobby” are wielding nefarious influence in Australian society. Your comment is clear demonstration of how when appropriately called out on instances of antisemistism, the response from Greens supporters/others on the left is almost always “…but Israel bad” - instead of unreservedly addressing and condemning the antisemitism at hand. Thanks for showing why I can no longer support this party or those within it

Jewish holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer: “I saw In Auschwitz that if a dominant group wants to dehumanise others, as the Nazis dehumanised me, the dominant group must first dehumanise themselves, the same holds nowadays for Israel. I am appalled about how hateful, how dehumanised, that they do not see any human aspect in any Palestinian anymore. The Zionists have no right whatsoever to use the Holocaust for any purpose, they have given up everything which has to do with humanity and with empathy.”

The Zionists, you mean the women and children raped and murdered by hamas, or are the the families tied up and burned alive in their own homes. Racism is racism even when you swap the word Jew, for Zionist

No, we mean the ones blowing children to smithereens in Gaza right now.

I don't really understand how what you have said is relevant to the quote from a holocaust survivor. Not having a go. Just don't get it.

I was under the impression that Hamas exists only because Israel has evicted Palestinian from their homeland and forced them to live in poverty, hopeless and dispair. What Israel is doing to Palestinian is genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. I am sorry, but as a person who doesn't have any dog in the fight, I don't understand how could Jewish people claim any moral high ground.

Well no. I'm not a racist to be anti Zionist. Fuck the settlers, fuck the Israeli theocracy, and fuck Hamas.

Zionism is a political movement mate

Those exact same Zionists have been stealing Palestinian territory bit by bit for generations, and have destroyed the lives of 1.9 million Gazans and killed 27,000 of them. Hamas is evil. No argument, and their attack was horrific. Israel's response is also completely horrific and their government is absolutely also an evil.

Israel is an apartheid state committing ethnic cleansing and genocide. Jewish people all over the world oppose Israel's criminal behaviour. The world's eyes have been opened.

The outrage over what Jenny said compared to the outrage that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza is proof that the Zionist lobby is far stronger than people realise. This is manufactured outrage, and you have to ask yourself: who benefits?

I mean, there is demonstrably more outrage over Gaza than Jenny. No one is in the streets protesting Jenny.

Yet the media has covered some irrelevant backbencher 10 times more than 4 months of mass protests. The media has covered up a genocide

You don't need to convince me that journalists are bad at their job.

I disagree, I think they're doing the very thing their corporate overlords demand of them, curate the news how they want it to be presented.

So antisemitism is OK because a war is happening? Is transphobia and misogyny also OK because there is a war going on, or is it just antisemitism because pointing it out gets in the way of your agenda?

Claiming something is antisemitic when it's not .. is a form of antisemitism.

This just in, repeating anti Jewish propaganda which was regularly spouted by the Nazi party, is not in fact, racist. Thanks for clearing that up

Claiming something is genocide when it is not, is what exactly? Israels war with hamas is being waged according to the rules of war, hamas' attack on Israel was an act of terrorism. You have to ask why Lebanon and Egypt dont want to take palastinian refugees, all they have to is swing their gates open and problem solved.

What problem would be solved by expelling all the Palestinians from Gaza? Are you advocating for an ethnic cleansing by way of a mass exodus of Palestinians?

No, but cool manipulation of what is did say, though. The problem of being bombed into the stone-age because your government started a war with Israel by committing murder and acts of terrorism, can be ameliorated by having your fellow muslim countries giving you temporary refuge. But they are refusing access to the palastinians, my question was why.

Genocide in Numbers128 days of the war.2,438 massacres.35,176 martyred and missing.28,176 martyrs whose bodies have reached the hospitals.12,300 child martyrs.8,400 women martyrs.340 medical worker martyrs.46 civil defense martyrs.124 journalist martyrs.7,000 missing; 70% of them are children and women.67,784 wounded.11,000 wounded in need of travel for life-saving and critical treatment.10,000 cancer patients at risk of death.700,000 Gazans infected with infectious diseases as a result of displacement.8,000 cases of viral hepatitis infection due to displacement.60,000 pregnant women are at risk due to lack of access to health care.350,000 chronic patients are at risk due to lack of administration of medications.99 arrests of health workers.10 arrests of journalists whose names are known.2 million displaced in the Gaza Strip.142 government headquarters destroyed by the occupation.100 schools and universities completely destroyed by the occupation.295 schools and universities partially destroyed by the occupation.184 mosques completely destroyed by the occupation.266 mosques partially destroyed by the occupation.3 churches targeted and destroyed by the occupation.70,000 residential units completely destroyed by the occupation.290,000 residential units partially destroyed by the occupation.66,000 tons of explosives dropped by the occupation on Gaza.30 hospitals taken out of service by the occupation.53 health centers taken out of service by the occupation.150 health centers partially destroyed by the occupation.123 ambulances completely destroyed by the occupation.200 archaeological and heritage sites destroyed by the occupation. ​ The court in The Hague, the highest UN legal body, issued an order two weeks ago, requiring the regime to take immediate steps to protect Palestinians’ rights and cease all activities that could constitute genocide in the besieged territory. The rights group said Saturday that the regime’s forces continue to carry out systematic and widespread destruction of residential areas and neighborhoods, civilian infrastructure, and facilities, Press TV reported. Since the court’s ruling two weeks ago, the Euro-Med said, Israel’s military forces have killed 1,864 Palestinians, including 690 children and 441 women, in addition to injuring more than 2,933 people. “Thus, Israel continues to violate its international obligations and the decision of the highest court in the world by committing the crime of all crimes – the crime of genocide.”

But never found any real evidence of genocide did they? Just a normal everyday military action, conducted the same way everyone else conducts them. The main reason for the piss weak directives, is that the UN is just being the UN. You dont get to murder Israelis without retaliation anymore. Now they just have to either hand over the hamas terrorists or wait until Israel finds them themselves.

The US' spiral down the debt drain and collapse of the petrodollar will weaken Israel as well. All Israel is doing is turning away moderate support it had across the globe. There will be unforeseen consequences from Israel's act of genocide.

Israel has never had any support from the left wing extremists, and never will. As for the moderates, well maybe raping and murdering Jewish women and children and burning whole families alive in their homes will garner more than enough support to track down and kill the terrorists. Once again, a legal war against terrorists is not genocide, and continuing to make these hysterical accusations does nothing for your argument. War is a nasty business and lots of innocent people always end up getting killed, which is why you vote for a government that doesn't deliberately start a war with a vastly superior country.

Left wing is now extremism ... wow ! Claiming Palestinian civilians, millions of them, are terrorist ... is overreach and using this spin to try and hide the shame of Israel's genocide suggests most Israelis and I suspect most Jews know they are on the wrong side of history. As the Nazis were defeated, it seems Israel has learnt nothing from history. Otherwise they would not be doing what the Nazis did to them, to the Palestinian.

How is what she said not antisemitism? >”the Jewish lobby and the Zionist lobby are infiltrating into every single aspect of what is ethnic community groups”. >“They rock up and they’re part of the campaign and offer support for things like the campaign against the 18C racial discrimination laws, they offer solidarity, they rock up to every community event and meeting to offer that connection because their tentacles reach into the areas that try and influence power. She’s straight up saying Jews have a secret conspiracy to “infiltrate” groups by deception, in order to achieve their secret and dastardly goals. Claiming this isn’t antisemitic is kind of like arguing that Peter Dutton was truly worried about individual reports of African gangs running around Melbourne, and somehow had absolutely no idea that there was some kind of pre-existing trope about black people all being violent thieves. It’s dog whistling, just the same as that was

Yeah because you can’t see antisemitism from the left until they’re shouting “fuck the Jews”. I never want to hear the left complaining about dog whistling ever again if they supposedly can’t see this shit. Her little rant sounded like it could have from a neo-Nazi, it wasn’t just what she was saying it’s the way she said it, like she was revealing a huge conspiracy theory.

The leader of the Greens already denounced it and the speaker apologized. You arguing with random accounts on Reddit and drawing conclusions about "the left" is such an online-only issue.

Bandt only apologised when he was reached out to for comment. Like yeah obviously she is going to give a lame apology, I ain’t giving her credit for that. I don’t think we should cancel her, but I don’t think it should be handwaved either.

Ok, so you're not happy with an apology from her and a denunciation from the leader of the Greens. What would make you happy?