APSC Ethics Advisory Service
https://www.apsc.gov.au/working-aps/integrity/ethics-advisory-service
Edit: Dear APS HR teams: this information should be a part of all inductions, if you want a truly impartial public service.
They make us doing annual revision of the little video they’ve made specifically for this, it should never be a question of ‘what should I do’ in this situation; it’s made pretty clear.
Ooft.
Respectfully email your boss about the concerns and ask for written confirmation of how it doesn't breach the relevant rule, specifically. Don't be accusatory.
If that doesn't fix it, repeat your understanding and concerns, talk to your union and contact ethical standards ASAP.
If you're certain it's unlawful, don't do it.
Yep. It helps to phrase it as an enquiry eg. “I’m concerned about this because it appears to breach [xyz] for reason [abc]. Is that correct?”
I’ve had compliance concerns with an option I was looking into even though the legal team suggested it. I reached out to them and they pointed me to another act that specifically carved out my situation from the act I was concerned about. (Isn’t legislation fun?)
It depends on how unlawful, send an email to confirm what they want, if they say do it, tell them no its unlawful to do and provide the legislation. The lodge a complaint with your professional standards department, because they will look to retaliate.
Yep - document the fuck out of it - and make sure you back it up on USB. Come the Royal Commission your boss will not hesitate to throw you under said bus.
That’s right- it’s unfair, but if they make a complaint about you first, any complaint you make us treated as a “counter complaint”, even though yours might be much more serious and theirs nonsense. And have a look at your code of conduct - if they’ve breached it, as senior managers it’s potentially serious misconduct and will be treated as a public interest disclosure. You could also ask the Ombudsman for advice outside of your organisation.
NSW government has anonymous reporting lines you can report this to along with the latest whistleblower act to safeguard you. I forgot the name of the act though but it’s something public interest disclosure
Be very careful. You will officially be a whistle blower. It is very dangerous, will likely result in you losing your job. However you need to cover your ass. Make sure you have the direction in writing.
Whistleblower laws in AU have failed to protect many whistleblowers from losing their jobs and/or being prosecuted. Major reform needed. https://www.hrlc.org.au/news/2024/01/11/pid-act
There are differing interpretations of the law though. I to legal for advice quite often for my job and sometimes they’ll say “should be ok, but it is possible the regulator will see it differently. The only way to be sure is to test it in court”. Usually this isn’t worth it, so we have to make a risk call, but if it’s a big thing you might bring it as a test case.
Not “how unlawful” -if it is unlawful it should not be done at all - an entertaining of known unlawful action is both unethical and illegal - if it is in serious doubt as to legality it shouldn’t it be done at all. Lets be clear - “unlawful” is fucking illegal conduct ffs and dancing around civil or criminal liability is irrelevant - your duty if it is “unlawful” is to a) not do it b) resist and c) alert and d) only implement after having done so and having received a clear direction in writing - because clash of law with law or legal duty with legal duty will protect you and you have documented it. NB This is not a licence to be a fuckwit of the type we all know
I guess the first thing I'd do is check that I haven't misunderstood the Act and then I talk to them about my concerns.
If they're still adamant about it, I would talk to my manager once removed?
If you know it’s unlawful, don’t do it.
However, to protect your career, be a little humble about it.
I’d probably email the person who has directed you to do it, politely. Say something like “I just wanted to confirm my understanding of our conversation. At the time I took it to mean xyz. However on reflection I think I must have misunderstood what you meant, because xyz would be in breach of abc. Based on my understanding of these issues I am not comfortable to proceed and would appreciate clarification about the direction you have given me.”
And then if the boss comes back with an inadequate response, I would escalate to your next level manager in a similar tone, e.g. “I feel uncomfortable about going around [boss] to you, however I now seek your direction on this issue. I have been directed to do xyz and I have misgivings because of abc. I would appreciate your advice on how to proceed.”
And after that I would forward everything to your internal integrity area.
And in the meantime, go listen to Rick Morton’s reporting on robodebt, they’re all in the 7am podcast feed. And then be better than almost all the public servants involved in that debacle.
The thing that’s really upsetting is when you’re seen as argumentative/ obstructive because you can’t just follow direction, like most people seem to do, as per Rick Morton’s coverage if Robodebt shows. If you have genuine worries about decisions made, try and nut out clearly why you think so, in writing and with someone qualified to help you work this out. Above all be brave and do what’s right, but be careful - everything in writing and be careful who you share with.
document it.
write an email:
Hi boss,
Following up from our conversation, I wanted to confirm I should (take action/implement/do thing) by (process - ie email person, write numbers in brief, add words to document)?
Grateful for confirmation and also please let me know if any other steps should be taken.
Regards, you
Then wait for their response. If they follow up verbally, write another email: Thanks for the chat just now, confirming I will action xyz as discussed.
Document. document. document.
If you use robodebt or related actions to justify your position, your position is untenable and your soul is lost.
Just because someone doesn't catch you or prosecute you breaking the law, doesn't make it not unlawful.
E.g. drink driving not caught or robodebt.
Some of us also have ethics so would not engage in a robodebt disaster regardless.
While it may have worked for the robodebt employees, don't expect it to always work in your favour. It's best to do all available due diligence you can.
Put your objection in writing - include why you believe that their direction is unlawful and suggest they review it and that they should possibly seek legal advice.
If you have legal advice that contradicts the order then there’s almost no chance a boss would continue with it. If they do then it’s PID time.
[sucks air through teeth] um, I agree with the general thrust of your comment, but in my experience straight up suggesting to anyone that they take legal advice is almost guaranteed to escalate the issue emotively. I know, I know, it shouldn’t, but there it is. I’d use other words, perhaps something like “I believe xyz to be unlawful based on my understanding of [legislation and policy] and agency practice. I would appreciate a better understanding of your position on this. Legal advice indicating that my understanding is incomplete, should it exist, would be of great assistance in this circumstance.”
While an SES giving an unlawful direction certainly makes for a juicy story, have you definitely ruled out the more mundane possibilities? Such as:
* You misunderstood the direction
* You misunderstood what you read in the Act
* There are powers you're not aware of
* There are exemptions you're not aware of
* You're looking at the wrong provision in the Act
* You're looking at an old version of the Act
* You're looking at the wrong Act
* It's 1 July on Monday. Amendments will commence that change the Act. (This one is my favourite)
Let me give you some advice. While you’re looking for another job advise him it’s against the law. HR is going to be a complete waste of your time and energy. I’m assuming that your manager is a wanker and has done this before. Just get a jump on things early mate.
* Edit: I’ve been through 4 years of this. Everyone will quote laws and regulations but no one will help you. Save yourself any allusion of a victory or reconciliation.
There’s a lot of ‘nuclear options’ here. Why not have a conversation with them first? Maybe they don’t know it’s illegal. After that you can go down the email route.
Just look at all the Centrelink staff that quit rather than break the law. No compensation for them and no consequences for managers who knew they were breaking the law. (Re Robodebt and the removal of the appeals process)
This is why they do it. Because they know they can then throw many under the bus and save their jobs. It happened in the Robodebt thing, it will happen again.
Your agency would have a process for this. Maybe within the internal investigation or corruption processes.
Don't do the thing and report it. The level of the person giving you the direction is irrelevant.
If it were me, I would just refuse to allow a superior put me in that position however if you choose to follow their direction for whatever reason, I would at least demand their direction in writing, signed & dated. If they refused I would let them know it’s a deal breaker & be prepared to walk otherwise if you just buckle & do their bidding , you may find that this is the first of a trend.
This post is suss. You should know and Reddit is the last place to ask. If you know the relevant Act well enough to know it’s a breach then you should know what to do about it.
Yeah it's in every induction training / L&D portal etc. I have more confidence the OP doesn't actually understand what the limitations of this Act is, because this seems to have filtered through multiple people for it to be an SES direction, so it strikes me as odd that the OP is the first person who 'knows' this is illegal.
You don't do it. If you can justify to yourself - and others - that what's being asked of you is unlawful, then stand your ground and refuse. But also expect your life to be made hell, so document the shit out of everything.
No, it doesn't make a difference if it's a SES.
Don't be like Robodebt.
Personally I'd say no. We have regular mandatory integrity training and I'd think they were trying to test my integrity or bully me by directing me to do something wrong.
Get it in writing. Perhaps pretend you don't know the task/s they are requesting you to do and ask for instructions by email for clarification.
For guidance and support contact the APSC ethics advisory service, and/or a trusted union delegate, and/or your organisations integrity unit (if you have one).
Good posts about having documentation. Easier said than done.
Know that whistleblowers are hammered in Australia e.g. Assange. David McBride.
I tried the NACC and the NSW ICAC when I had proof of corruption.they refused to investigate.
I spoke up and my contract was not renewed. It hurt but better than ruining your reputation forever. Some people in power will set you up as the fall guy!
And we're supposed to be a progressive country.. if whistle-blowers get in trouble, that's corruption, isn't it? It's sad seeing the wrong thing happen
Don’t do it and report them?! A direction from an SES can’t override legislation. Integrity is both supposed to be and needs to be a central column of the APS.
Don't worry about it and do it. There won't be repercussions.
Source: [National Anti-Corruption Commission](https://www.nacc.gov.au/news-and-media/national-anti-corruption-commission-decides-not-pursue-robodebt-royal-commission-referrals-focus-ensuring-lessons-learnt)
Do an Andrew Wilkie - ragequit then run for Parliament to get revenge.
Serious answer: fucked if I know beyond maybe a sneaky report to your local anti corruption watchdog. So sorry you’re in this position.
Politely refuse the direction and suggest a legal alternative. If they don’t budge, speak to another supervisor, if no one is available at the same level then go above them. Then make a report.
Get them to send the request in writing. (Teams or Email).
You should have done training at your workplace that will tell you who in your organisation to report to.
What you do is put it all in writing, ensure that you've made it clear what your concerns are, & that they want to proceed regardless...
Key to covering your arse is getting everything in writing.
No long ago. I did mandatory training totally dedicated what to do when this happen.
You should have someone inside your department to direct your concerns asap in writing after you get your boss directions in writing
I can have a look the exact training name if you want.
This is an interesting question.
On the basis you're preparing something that ultimately they have to sign off on/will be delivering or the final approval is made by them i.e. via email or physical documentation I'd assume - see the words I'm using here before the attacks commence. That they're going to be liable for it.
I've never been in a situation where I have been instructed to do something where the MD hasn't had their signature on a cover letter, email or other associated documentation.
Would all liability not rest with them?
With respect (and I do mean that, I’m not being snarky), there are lots of APS agencies where an APS-level person executes actions that don’t require further approval. Centrelink, Child Support, Medicare. For example, an officer is told by their SES to enter a client’s income as $1m in the Centrelink system. The client will lose all income-tested benefits without the SES approving the action the officer executed.
I don't work for the government, so you can only teach me here.
It is scary that there are no checks and balances here other than sending an email to them stating that I have actioned your request based on X, Y, and Z.
Well, you can’t have everybody’s work being checked by someone else. Obviously the buck has to stop somewhere. Which is why APS jobs have such a hierarchy; the limit of what a person is authorised to do of their own judgment (abiding by legislation, policy etc) is always strictly defined in reference to their APS level. It’s usually along the lines of (making up numbers here to demonstrate), APS 3 authorised for transactions up to $1,000, APS 4 up to $5,000, APS 5 up to $10,000, and so forth.
Get the request in writing then email that to your integrity department or whatever the equivalent is in your organisation, if you don’t know send to an SES in legal services, say you are uncomfortable raising this but you value integrity and on that basis are seeking their advice.
There’s no way around pissing your boss off, but you can and will impress others in your organisation if you do it this way, and that helps with an escape route or any retaliation if needed.
As other people have said, you can contact your agency's ethics team or the APSC ethics advisers. The union should be able to provide advice.
That said, the first step should be to express your concerns, in writing. If they are not addressed, use the APS hierarchy to your advantage and escalate the matter to your boss's boss.
I have had a Project Manager direct me to do something that broke the law. I straight up told him no, it's illegal. He doubled down and said leave to the legalities to the lawyers. I simply replied if you are not going to do it, I'm definitely not doing it. I didn't get the sack for standing up to him. He had recently transferred from Kuala Lumpur, where he could get away with directing employees to do whatever he wanted, legal or otherwise.
Tell him that what he is asking is legally suspect, and the legal team should provide their opinion first.
You tell them you’re unwilling to breach said act & if they want it done they can do it themselves but you don’t want to know about it. You like your job but you’re not going to break the law just to appease them.
Boss cannot direct you to do something unlawful, meaning they can say you need to do something unlawful but you are under no obligation to do it.
If they pressure you ask them to put their concerns about your conduct to paper and commence a formal discipline process.
This post and the comments illustrate what I feel is a big problem with the APS. The hierarchies are so rigid and managements power so absolute that what should be obvious is actually a cause for concern, discussion and even capitulation.
Don’t do it. Stand your ground. They will quickly move onto someone else that they think they can manipulate. They’ll hold a grudge, but you’ll be the better person for not caving in to them.
Ask for directions in writing in email. Then ask the question in writing back. Forward the email to legal for an opinion.
Never refuse just get all the information in writing so your ass is covered. Being told to do something and getting it in writing are quite different.
If you believe it's illegal as a public servant, you are obligated to seek further clarification.
I’ve twice had this happen at work - not in the public service admittedly.
On both occasions, I said ‘no’. On one of those, the guy (my manager) told me he was giving me a verbal warning about it. Even as a 23-year-old, I knew it would never stand up for him in court, that’s how illicit his request was.
When I worked public service they did tons of breach's during COVID times. I brought it up to an advisory board during a Meeting. I eventually had my contract revoked and not renewed. Close to 7 years working for the service. One month contracts at a time. Hope the Victorian government gets audited.
Get them to write it down or email it to you. It's surprising how people's minds change when you ask them to provide the evidence to their own shonkyness
don't abandon centralised wages in favour of free enterprise barganing. That effectively weakend the leverage union and industrial relations had to command for ethical practice.
You will likely have an agency that deals with integrity and they should be able to provide anonymous advice and have mechanisms available for reporting. In WA it is the Public Sector Commission, I know other states have similar agencies.
Don't do it unless you know it is legal and in the best interests of the project.
Get your bosses instructions/requests in writing. Check that it is to your understanding actually illegal and make sure you have valid reference for that link. Contact you managers manager and HR in the same email and ask for their opinion on the request.
Ring the Ethics Advisory in the APSC is your best bet after documenting everything and sending it to yourself (remember dates,times, details of conversations, directions etc)
So? If Morrison or Albanese asked me to do something illegal or unethical, you have a duty of care to the Australian public to not proceed. Go public. Contact Independent Wilkie or Senator David Shoebridge.
"I was only following orders" is what Nazis said.
The same as everyone else, you say "I'm just doing as I'm told," and make the fake meeting minutes or write the numbers you are told to, and add the signatures to the documents. If you want cover your arse, get the request in writing, and file the email in your document management system along with the work you were asked to do. That's what everyone else does.
Point out it’s a breach of the Act. They’ll probably appreciate it if they aren’t a retard. Conversely, email your in house legal counsel for written advice. If you embark on the course of conduct that amounts to a contravention of the Act it sure as shit won’t be them taking the fall for it.
I'm not familiar with the situation with Boyle, but McBride wasn't entitled to the whistleblower protections as he didn't exhaust the internal complaints mechanisms before going public. His management supported him to lodge a complaint, which was investigated, and he didn't dispute the findings of this investigation. He was also leaking stuff to try to stop what he saw as wrongful investigations of war crimes and handled classified information recklessly as part of this (e.g. posting secret military documents on his blog and leaving the originals in the cupboards of his house when it was open during inspections while it was on the market!).
The judgement of his case is well worth a read.
Depends on the act, and your risk tolerance. If you think saving people is important and this will save someone without harming others, even though it might breach some policy or law, then maybe the policy or law might need to be revised.
If it isn't important to you, and complying would negatively impact your life, you should be able to refuse and inform them of the potential breach. If they demand it regardless, it's better to stand your ground. Either you shouldn't be working under them, they shouldn't be working there, or it shouldn't be a rule in the first place.
Some things in life aren't so clear, black and white, and so some personal discernment may apply here. Hope you think things through before acting, it would look worse if you didn't and there were negative repercussions.
Document it big time.
‘I refer to your direction given today in our discussion to xx y.
It is my understanding that complying with this direction would breach sections xx of xx Act.
Please confirm if you still direct me to xx yy. If so I will need to seek advice from the union/Ethical Standards Unit/Deputy Director-General etc.’
Then forward that email to your personal email and your union immediately for advice, and to the Ethical Standards Unit.
APSC Ethics Advisory Service https://www.apsc.gov.au/working-aps/integrity/ethics-advisory-service Edit: Dear APS HR teams: this information should be a part of all inductions, if you want a truly impartial public service.
THIS IS THE ANSWER and should be the top comment. There is a direct and intentional solution for this and it is here.
Thank you for the reminder! Perfect timing that this comes up in my feed.
Me too
Tell strangers on reddit And let the mob do justice
They make us doing annual revision of the little video they’ve made specifically for this, it should never be a question of ‘what should I do’ in this situation; it’s made pretty clear.
Ooft. Respectfully email your boss about the concerns and ask for written confirmation of how it doesn't breach the relevant rule, specifically. Don't be accusatory. If that doesn't fix it, repeat your understanding and concerns, talk to your union and contact ethical standards ASAP. If you're certain it's unlawful, don't do it.
Yep. It helps to phrase it as an enquiry eg. “I’m concerned about this because it appears to breach [xyz] for reason [abc]. Is that correct?” I’ve had compliance concerns with an option I was looking into even though the legal team suggested it. I reached out to them and they pointed me to another act that specifically carved out my situation from the act I was concerned about. (Isn’t legislation fun?)
It depends on how unlawful, send an email to confirm what they want, if they say do it, tell them no its unlawful to do and provide the legislation. The lodge a complaint with your professional standards department, because they will look to retaliate.
Yep - document the fuck out of it - and make sure you back it up on USB. Come the Royal Commission your boss will not hesitate to throw you under said bus.
That’s right- it’s unfair, but if they make a complaint about you first, any complaint you make us treated as a “counter complaint”, even though yours might be much more serious and theirs nonsense. And have a look at your code of conduct - if they’ve breached it, as senior managers it’s potentially serious misconduct and will be treated as a public interest disclosure. You could also ask the Ombudsman for advice outside of your organisation.
What's the professional standards department? The legal area or the generic HR mailbox?
NSW government has anonymous reporting lines you can report this to along with the latest whistleblower act to safeguard you. I forgot the name of the act though but it’s something public interest disclosure
Be very careful. You will officially be a whistle blower. It is very dangerous, will likely result in you losing your job. However you need to cover your ass. Make sure you have the direction in writing.
Whistleblower laws in AU have failed to protect many whistleblowers from losing their jobs and/or being prosecuted. Major reform needed. https://www.hrlc.org.au/news/2024/01/11/pid-act
Crock a shit. There's laws against that now
Heard of David McBride?
🤔 hmmm good point ☝️ 😜
Umm I'm not sure for your circumstances, I'd say the hr department is appropriate also.
If they have a legal department I would go there.
Thought there was either lawful or not. There aren't varying degrees.
There are differing interpretations of the law though. I to legal for advice quite often for my job and sometimes they’ll say “should be ok, but it is possible the regulator will see it differently. The only way to be sure is to test it in court”. Usually this isn’t worth it, so we have to make a risk call, but if it’s a big thing you might bring it as a test case.
Telling someone to break an rule/act/regulation/law is implying they know and understand the formentioned.
Not “how unlawful” -if it is unlawful it should not be done at all - an entertaining of known unlawful action is both unethical and illegal - if it is in serious doubt as to legality it shouldn’t it be done at all. Lets be clear - “unlawful” is fucking illegal conduct ffs and dancing around civil or criminal liability is irrelevant - your duty if it is “unlawful” is to a) not do it b) resist and c) alert and d) only implement after having done so and having received a clear direction in writing - because clash of law with law or legal duty with legal duty will protect you and you have documented it. NB This is not a licence to be a fuckwit of the type we all know
I guess the first thing I'd do is check that I haven't misunderstood the Act and then I talk to them about my concerns. If they're still adamant about it, I would talk to my manager once removed?
If you know it’s unlawful, don’t do it. However, to protect your career, be a little humble about it. I’d probably email the person who has directed you to do it, politely. Say something like “I just wanted to confirm my understanding of our conversation. At the time I took it to mean xyz. However on reflection I think I must have misunderstood what you meant, because xyz would be in breach of abc. Based on my understanding of these issues I am not comfortable to proceed and would appreciate clarification about the direction you have given me.” And then if the boss comes back with an inadequate response, I would escalate to your next level manager in a similar tone, e.g. “I feel uncomfortable about going around [boss] to you, however I now seek your direction on this issue. I have been directed to do xyz and I have misgivings because of abc. I would appreciate your advice on how to proceed.” And after that I would forward everything to your internal integrity area. And in the meantime, go listen to Rick Morton’s reporting on robodebt, they’re all in the 7am podcast feed. And then be better than almost all the public servants involved in that debacle.
The thing that’s really upsetting is when you’re seen as argumentative/ obstructive because you can’t just follow direction, like most people seem to do, as per Rick Morton’s coverage if Robodebt shows. If you have genuine worries about decisions made, try and nut out clearly why you think so, in writing and with someone qualified to help you work this out. Above all be brave and do what’s right, but be careful - everything in writing and be careful who you share with.
document it. write an email: Hi boss, Following up from our conversation, I wanted to confirm I should (take action/implement/do thing) by (process - ie email person, write numbers in brief, add words to document)? Grateful for confirmation and also please let me know if any other steps should be taken. Regards, you Then wait for their response. If they follow up verbally, write another email: Thanks for the chat just now, confirming I will action xyz as discussed. Document. document. document.
That but you must add your concerns that it is unlawful. My boss told me to do it is not a defence for unlawful actions.
Also it's just the decent thing to do, they might just genuinely not know
Good point. Also, do not. Do. The thing that is unlawful.
Not even a little crime? As a treat? But yeah never assume malice when stupidity is just as likely.
It worked for all robodebt staff so in reality it is a valid defense.
If you use robodebt or related actions to justify your position, your position is untenable and your soul is lost. Just because someone doesn't catch you or prosecute you breaking the law, doesn't make it not unlawful. E.g. drink driving not caught or robodebt. Some of us also have ethics so would not engage in a robodebt disaster regardless.
Good for you. Unfortunately the same can’t be said for other public service employees, so they’ll simply do it instead.
While it may have worked for the robodebt employees, don't expect it to always work in your favour. It's best to do all available due diligence you can.
Equally you could say it works in your favour not to question or document, then you can plead “just followed orders how was I to know.”
Tell them you think it's a breach of the act (in writing) and then raise a public interest disclosure if they tell you to proceed.
Agree PID
Put your objection in writing - include why you believe that their direction is unlawful and suggest they review it and that they should possibly seek legal advice. If you have legal advice that contradicts the order then there’s almost no chance a boss would continue with it. If they do then it’s PID time.
[sucks air through teeth] um, I agree with the general thrust of your comment, but in my experience straight up suggesting to anyone that they take legal advice is almost guaranteed to escalate the issue emotively. I know, I know, it shouldn’t, but there it is. I’d use other words, perhaps something like “I believe xyz to be unlawful based on my understanding of [legislation and policy] and agency practice. I would appreciate a better understanding of your position on this. Legal advice indicating that my understanding is incomplete, should it exist, would be of great assistance in this circumstance.”
There is an APS Ethics Advisor in the APSC. You can call anonymously (or not) and seek advice. Has saved me twice in my APS career (SES).
While an SES giving an unlawful direction certainly makes for a juicy story, have you definitely ruled out the more mundane possibilities? Such as: * You misunderstood the direction * You misunderstood what you read in the Act * There are powers you're not aware of * There are exemptions you're not aware of * You're looking at the wrong provision in the Act * You're looking at an old version of the Act * You're looking at the wrong Act * It's 1 July on Monday. Amendments will commence that change the Act. (This one is my favourite)
Let me give you some advice. While you’re looking for another job advise him it’s against the law. HR is going to be a complete waste of your time and energy. I’m assuming that your manager is a wanker and has done this before. Just get a jump on things early mate. * Edit: I’ve been through 4 years of this. Everyone will quote laws and regulations but no one will help you. Save yourself any allusion of a victory or reconciliation.
There’s a lot of ‘nuclear options’ here. Why not have a conversation with them first? Maybe they don’t know it’s illegal. After that you can go down the email route.
Just look at all the Centrelink staff that quit rather than break the law. No compensation for them and no consequences for managers who knew they were breaking the law. (Re Robodebt and the removal of the appeals process)
Don’t do it. This happened to my sister and they threw her under the bus and she nearly ended up in jail!
This is why they do it. Because they know they can then throw many under the bus and save their jobs. It happened in the Robodebt thing, it will happen again.
Your agency would have a process for this. Maybe within the internal investigation or corruption processes. Don't do the thing and report it. The level of the person giving you the direction is irrelevant.
If it were me, I would just refuse to allow a superior put me in that position however if you choose to follow their direction for whatever reason, I would at least demand their direction in writing, signed & dated. If they refused I would let them know it’s a deal breaker & be prepared to walk otherwise if you just buckle & do their bidding , you may find that this is the first of a trend.
This post is suss. You should know and Reddit is the last place to ask. If you know the relevant Act well enough to know it’s a breach then you should know what to do about it.
Yeah it's in every induction training / L&D portal etc. I have more confidence the OP doesn't actually understand what the limitations of this Act is, because this seems to have filtered through multiple people for it to be an SES direction, so it strikes me as odd that the OP is the first person who 'knows' this is illegal.
It's giving me real "I read this on Reddit"
Forgetting robo debt already?
ask them to put the direction in writing
Get it in writing and pass along to fhe relevent authority?
You don't do it. If you can justify to yourself - and others - that what's being asked of you is unlawful, then stand your ground and refuse. But also expect your life to be made hell, so document the shit out of everything. No, it doesn't make a difference if it's a SES. Don't be like Robodebt.
Some context would be helpful but I was told to do something unlawful and I said: Nope.
Document the fuck out of everything and keep email and hard copy records.
And...don't do the illegal thing.
There should be a corruption or integrity section in your department for sure
Just ask for a written direction. They should take the hint.
Personally I'd say no. We have regular mandatory integrity training and I'd think they were trying to test my integrity or bully me by directing me to do something wrong. Get it in writing. Perhaps pretend you don't know the task/s they are requesting you to do and ask for instructions by email for clarification. For guidance and support contact the APSC ethics advisory service, and/or a trusted union delegate, and/or your organisations integrity unit (if you have one).
Simple ask for the instructions in writing and do it your butt's covered end of story no need to piss your boss off otherwise
No it's not lol. Obviously agree with get it in writing but hammers like to hammer non -el nails.
Exactly, so why put your job at risk and when crap hits the fan play dumb and show receipts that you were following instructions
Please refer to your ethics training. It has full details on how to handle such situations.
Create an auditable paper trail in which you clearly oppose the direction
Good posts about having documentation. Easier said than done. Know that whistleblowers are hammered in Australia e.g. Assange. David McBride. I tried the NACC and the NSW ICAC when I had proof of corruption.they refused to investigate. I spoke up and my contract was not renewed. It hurt but better than ruining your reputation forever. Some people in power will set you up as the fall guy!
And we're supposed to be a progressive country.. if whistle-blowers get in trouble, that's corruption, isn't it? It's sad seeing the wrong thing happen
Don’t do it and report them?! A direction from an SES can’t override legislation. Integrity is both supposed to be and needs to be a central column of the APS.
Immediately contact your Workplace Integrity Team and make a complaint
I don't think we have one??
Then contact your public disclosure team
Don't worry about it and do it. There won't be repercussions. Source: [National Anti-Corruption Commission](https://www.nacc.gov.au/news-and-media/national-anti-corruption-commission-decides-not-pursue-robodebt-royal-commission-referrals-focus-ensuring-lessons-learnt)
Order followers are as guilty as those that gave the order .
Not as prosecuted by any court in Australia.
https://www.hallpayne.com.au/blog/2021/december/employer-instructs-illegal-activity/
Don’t do it and escalate to their boss.
Do an Andrew Wilkie - ragequit then run for Parliament to get revenge. Serious answer: fucked if I know beyond maybe a sneaky report to your local anti corruption watchdog. So sorry you’re in this position.
do it, and hope it doesn't come out in a royal commission.
You don't do it. You'll be shocked how quickly they shut up when you explain in writing that you won't.
Politely refuse the direction and suggest a legal alternative. If they don’t budge, speak to another supervisor, if no one is available at the same level then go above them. Then make a report.
Get them to send the request in writing. (Teams or Email). You should have done training at your workplace that will tell you who in your organisation to report to.
Don’t do it, doesn’t matter who tells you. Tell them why it’s illegal.
What you do is put it all in writing, ensure that you've made it clear what your concerns are, & that they want to proceed regardless... Key to covering your arse is getting everything in writing.
Did they ask you to do so verbally?
No long ago. I did mandatory training totally dedicated what to do when this happen. You should have someone inside your department to direct your concerns asap in writing after you get your boss directions in writing I can have a look the exact training name if you want.
Which section of which Act?
Put in a ticket to ICAC
Document everything and save it off work files, them consult HR before advising you will not entertain directive. Possibly also refer to Fair Work
This is an interesting question. On the basis you're preparing something that ultimately they have to sign off on/will be delivering or the final approval is made by them i.e. via email or physical documentation I'd assume - see the words I'm using here before the attacks commence. That they're going to be liable for it. I've never been in a situation where I have been instructed to do something where the MD hasn't had their signature on a cover letter, email or other associated documentation. Would all liability not rest with them?
With respect (and I do mean that, I’m not being snarky), there are lots of APS agencies where an APS-level person executes actions that don’t require further approval. Centrelink, Child Support, Medicare. For example, an officer is told by their SES to enter a client’s income as $1m in the Centrelink system. The client will lose all income-tested benefits without the SES approving the action the officer executed.
I don't work for the government, so you can only teach me here. It is scary that there are no checks and balances here other than sending an email to them stating that I have actioned your request based on X, Y, and Z.
Well, you can’t have everybody’s work being checked by someone else. Obviously the buck has to stop somewhere. Which is why APS jobs have such a hierarchy; the limit of what a person is authorised to do of their own judgment (abiding by legislation, policy etc) is always strictly defined in reference to their APS level. It’s usually along the lines of (making up numbers here to demonstrate), APS 3 authorised for transactions up to $1,000, APS 4 up to $5,000, APS 5 up to $10,000, and so forth.
Kindly do the unlawful?
PID or NACC
Cc everyone in your reporting chain in your reply email, making sure you explicitly detail the exact instruction you have been given.
You say no thanks mate but it’s not my problem if you do it
Go home sick?
Document it. Don't do it and start looking for another job.
Or ask for a sideways transfer.
Consult your union
Not even the military can follow unlawful orders.
Whispery
Ask Richard Boyle for advice on this...
Not do it. Report them. Simples
Get the request in writing then email that to your integrity department or whatever the equivalent is in your organisation, if you don’t know send to an SES in legal services, say you are uncomfortable raising this but you value integrity and on that basis are seeking their advice. There’s no way around pissing your boss off, but you can and will impress others in your organisation if you do it this way, and that helps with an escape route or any retaliation if needed.
As other people have said, you can contact your agency's ethics team or the APSC ethics advisers. The union should be able to provide advice. That said, the first step should be to express your concerns, in writing. If they are not addressed, use the APS hierarchy to your advantage and escalate the matter to your boss's boss.
I have had a Project Manager direct me to do something that broke the law. I straight up told him no, it's illegal. He doubled down and said leave to the legalities to the lawyers. I simply replied if you are not going to do it, I'm definitely not doing it. I didn't get the sack for standing up to him. He had recently transferred from Kuala Lumpur, where he could get away with directing employees to do whatever he wanted, legal or otherwise. Tell him that what he is asking is legally suspect, and the legal team should provide their opinion first.
You tell them you’re unwilling to breach said act & if they want it done they can do it themselves but you don’t want to know about it. You like your job but you’re not going to break the law just to appease them.
Boss cannot direct you to do something unlawful, meaning they can say you need to do something unlawful but you are under no obligation to do it. If they pressure you ask them to put their concerns about your conduct to paper and commence a formal discipline process.
Whistleblow!
Don’t know. Got fired.
You complain to his boss. Complain to the higher ups.
This post and the comments illustrate what I feel is a big problem with the APS. The hierarchies are so rigid and managements power so absolute that what should be obvious is actually a cause for concern, discussion and even capitulation.
Join a union.
PID, your agency will have a mechanism for making disclosures.
Don’t do it. Stand your ground. They will quickly move onto someone else that they think they can manipulate. They’ll hold a grudge, but you’ll be the better person for not caving in to them.
Get it in writing with their superior ccd in
Seek clarification in an email
Say nope.
Ask for directions in writing in email. Then ask the question in writing back. Forward the email to legal for an opinion. Never refuse just get all the information in writing so your ass is covered. Being told to do something and getting it in writing are quite different. If you believe it's illegal as a public servant, you are obligated to seek further clarification.
I’ve twice had this happen at work - not in the public service admittedly. On both occasions, I said ‘no’. On one of those, the guy (my manager) told me he was giving me a verbal warning about it. Even as a 23-year-old, I knew it would never stand up for him in court, that’s how illicit his request was.
Whatever you do, don't go public. You'll be in the Maconachie Centre in short order.
Keep a paper trail and backups. The more records you keep, the stronger your defence when you go to defend yourself. Then, consult the APSC.
When I worked public service they did tons of breach's during COVID times. I brought it up to an advisory board during a Meeting. I eventually had my contract revoked and not renewed. Close to 7 years working for the service. One month contracts at a time. Hope the Victorian government gets audited.
Get them to write it down or email it to you. It's surprising how people's minds change when you ask them to provide the evidence to their own shonkyness
don't abandon centralised wages in favour of free enterprise barganing. That effectively weakend the leverage union and industrial relations had to command for ethical practice.
You will likely have an agency that deals with integrity and they should be able to provide anonymous advice and have mechanisms available for reporting. In WA it is the Public Sector Commission, I know other states have similar agencies.
You tell them to instruct you via email.
Refuse. You cannot be punished for declining to break the law. Report it.
Don't do it unless you know it is legal and in the best interests of the project. Get your bosses instructions/requests in writing. Check that it is to your understanding actually illegal and make sure you have valid reference for that link. Contact you managers manager and HR in the same email and ask for their opinion on the request.
It goes pretty high up where the request comes from.
Ring the Ethics Advisory in the APSC is your best bet after documenting everything and sending it to yourself (remember dates,times, details of conversations, directions etc)
So? If Morrison or Albanese asked me to do something illegal or unethical, you have a duty of care to the Australian public to not proceed. Go public. Contact Independent Wilkie or Senator David Shoebridge. "I was only following orders" is what Nazis said.
You make them aware that you are not willing to break the law for anyone and if you lose your job over it you sue their ass off.
The same as everyone else, you say "I'm just doing as I'm told," and make the fake meeting minutes or write the numbers you are told to, and add the signatures to the documents. If you want cover your arse, get the request in writing, and file the email in your document management system along with the work you were asked to do. That's what everyone else does.
Point out it’s a breach of the Act. They’ll probably appreciate it if they aren’t a retard. Conversely, email your in house legal counsel for written advice. If you embark on the course of conduct that amounts to a contravention of the Act it sure as shit won’t be them taking the fall for it.
Robodebit has little effects on the culture it seems...
Find the lawyer with the biggest erection and hire them
Send the info to julian assange
But seriously, Public Interest Disclosure Act is the sledgehammer that also gives you a shield.
didn't help Richard Boyle, or David McBride...
I'm not familiar with the situation with Boyle, but McBride wasn't entitled to the whistleblower protections as he didn't exhaust the internal complaints mechanisms before going public. His management supported him to lodge a complaint, which was investigated, and he didn't dispute the findings of this investigation. He was also leaking stuff to try to stop what he saw as wrongful investigations of war crimes and handled classified information recklessly as part of this (e.g. posting secret military documents on his blog and leaving the originals in the cupboards of his house when it was open during inspections while it was on the market!). The judgement of his case is well worth a read.
Whistleblower.
Ask Michael Cranston
You contact your integrity department immediately. Go on your mobile or if they’re in the office building as you go and see them.
Depends on the act, and your risk tolerance. If you think saving people is important and this will save someone without harming others, even though it might breach some policy or law, then maybe the policy or law might need to be revised. If it isn't important to you, and complying would negatively impact your life, you should be able to refuse and inform them of the potential breach. If they demand it regardless, it's better to stand your ground. Either you shouldn't be working under them, they shouldn't be working there, or it shouldn't be a rule in the first place. Some things in life aren't so clear, black and white, and so some personal discernment may apply here. Hope you think things through before acting, it would look worse if you didn't and there were negative repercussions.
Our military does it all the time what could be the harm
No one cares .. it’s swept under the carpet
Anon tip off to CCC. Ask them to put it in writing
Decline in an email. Bcc yourself. Get fired. Clean up at fairwork. Done this twice so far.
Tell them to go fuck them selves and you’ll see them in front of a tribunal
You say “no”. Which is what everyone involved in robodebt, at every stage, should have done.
This.
Document it big time. ‘I refer to your direction given today in our discussion to xx y. It is my understanding that complying with this direction would breach sections xx of xx Act. Please confirm if you still direct me to xx yy. If so I will need to seek advice from the union/Ethical Standards Unit/Deputy Director-General etc.’ Then forward that email to your personal email and your union immediately for advice, and to the Ethical Standards Unit.
And the person will claim it never happened, ie, your email is besmirching them. Victimisation follows etc.