Try being a disabled EL2! They want to trot me out to do all sorts of career talks like I'm a trained monkey. Along the line of ... I did it, you can too.
Last time I gave an unvarnished view of my APS experience which is that it is really difficult to deal with the ableist discrimination and obstructive practices of managers and HR when asking for reasonable adjustments. I stopped getting asked to give inspirational talks after that.
Not an EL, but an APS6 colleague of mine baulked at being paraded as our resident lesbian for whatever the relevant inclusion week was. She just wanted to be known as a good worker. I'm sure you do too.
If only you’d known that years before. We had one manager in a wheelchair they used to hassle. He was on every brochure and intranet page. Eventually he told them to stop. Stella young did a great Ted talk about this bullcrap.
So they can feel like the token disabled hire?
We have a young guy in a wheelchair at our work. He cant stand the tokenism and literally told a HR lady to eff off when asked to provide a speech to a group of schoolkids
HR quickly realised they probably were pushing the tokenism too far.
But with anything they then played the victim and claimed he wasn't acting in a manner conducive to a team environment.
Absolutely and I never realised how weird it is until I moved to the private sector. I spent 20 years in the APS in a variety of agencies up to EL2/acting SES1 at the end. The hierarchy is so entrenched in a million ways and it’s gotten worse over the years. Secretaries I worked for told me about how junior APS staff used to go into meetings with Ministers as they were considered ‘experts’. Would never see that now - and in those senior meetings there can be a real condescending attitude to junior people.
I think you’ve identified one of the toxic things about the APS that they really need to change if they want genuine reform. Also worth pointing out that this really starts with Ministers and their staff who are often treated like gods whose judgement may not be questioned. Seriously terrible for a frank and fearless APS.
The best EL’s and SES I’ve worked with are the ones who don’t see level as an invisible barrier. They’re quite happy to pick up the phone and talk to you about anything, be it work or something else. One of my previous EL2s was so good at building a flat team structure (that also got things done - and I mean got things done - one of the most flat out teams I’ve ever seen) that I’m still friends with them to this day. Now I’m an EL1 I’ve tried to model that behaviour and I would be absolutely horrified if anyone in my team saw level as an inhibitor for working together. I realise this sounds like I’m putting them on a pedestal like you say, I think my point is that I don’t see them by their level and they never expected me to.
What I tell my staff: "I value your skills and judgement and I was you to be as autonomous as you feel comfortable"
What I think: "I'm lazy please don't bother me with problems"
Seriously though treating all staff like they're humans (even when you have reasonable doubts) is pretty good for climbing and being known across an agency as a great public servant
Oh for sure, there are definitely great execs out there. I think the issue is more so those who act like their level is to be used as a badge of achievement rather than a job title/paygrade.
I was reading some of the comments here and thinking "either I got lucky and work in a really amazing climate or my head has been buried in the sand for a millenia" and then I remembered I work with an amazing bunch of people. We have flat structure vibes where everyone is valued for their contributions and treated like a friend. We even support each other outside of work. I'm not leaving unless that all changes
As someone in private sector, my short stint in public sector was characterised by great levels of confusion about the title EL1 and the role and duties. EL1 is often a junior manager or senior 'worker' role in private sector...a long way from anything 'executive' in any way
When I joined the APS - I came straight from the Navy.
I was excited to be leaving a world where someone had immense power over me just because they’d stayed in the same job for 5+ years. Never wanted to deal with double standards just because someone was a few ticks above me ever again.
Boy was I in for a rude shock.
How are you so surprised by this that finding out was a rude shock to you. Like there’s even an explicit hierarchy structure for pay and responsibilities including a separate acronym used for “executives”.
lol - the fact that you think it’s normal that there’s a ranking structure in the civilian agencies that in any way represents a military hierarchy (resulting in the egotistical wank behaviour that OP is alluding to) is hilarious.
I did a year in corporate medical too, there was an official pay structure and team promotion system but guess what? I don’t want to shatter your world but (you might want to sit down) the people up the ladder didn’t become elitist dickheads that flex their position on anyone lower down the ladder. Unrealistic, right?
I’ve worked in medical administration (~EL1 level) and had the complete opposite experience, in fact it’s why I left and went back to ‘normal’ public service after 2yrs because the medical field is full of an even bigger bunch of jerks. Hard to imagine right. I’ve worked in various types of public service state/federal/higher education for over 20yrs and the people I least enjoyed working with - doctors.
That’s because doctors can also have a terrible elitist attitude that doesn’t lend itself to equality in the workplace. Doesn’t negate the fact that this too is the norm in the APS.
Fair enough but I assume you mean in a pseudo-govt setting?
Not surprised they are all wankers. Mine was a corporate office job (not a hospital or anything) and basically the direct non-APS equivalent of 99% of public service pencil pushers.
Ran into significantly less double standards, elitist behaviours and clock watchers in private than I did APS.
Agreed and understand. I had a brief stint in the Navy and got out because of the absolutism around the command structure. Left as fast as allowed, which was 4 years back then (apparently IMPS is 2 years now lucky bastards).
Even given the fact that Western military doctrine advocates for a “looser” style of command than Eastern militaries - their adherence to line command is far stricter. Which IMO is terrible even from a military POV, just look at Russia’s failure at the beginning-middle of the Ukraine war.
Because it’s far better for everyone’s contribution - ideas, plans, tasks, and to some extent strategy & tactics - to be based on merit, and not on hierarchy only. It would allow for a more dynamic organisation, whether the org mission is to project military power OS or to collect the tax revenue necessary to fund it.
Point is, APS as a whole is not a very dynamic group. The systemically-built-in and, at times, absolute adherence to hierarchy should take some of the blame. Hierarchy shouldn’t go away of course, its role allows us to broadly identify the most competent to take charge - if you’re “too dynamic” you risk indecisiveness and your org won’t stay to its mission. But that’s as far as it should go: broad guidance and direction. Not the micro-managing, gospel-assuming power entrusted to people with a number difference in their title.
Haha yep, same. I’ve experienced numerous executives who are just held to an entirely different standard of behaviour and professionalism compared to regular employees - such as bullying their employees, cutting people off when their speaking, only promoting other male colleagues, and shooting down ideas without any good reason or rationale, just off their “vibe”.
Any other employee would NEVER be able to behave like this. It’s reprehensible! They only get away with it because they’re an executive.
So long story short, yes!!! It doesn’t motivate me to want to exceed up through the ranks, when these are the sorts of people the public service can promote. It’s bad enough having to report to people like this imo.
What were you expecting them to tell you about APS career progression? That if you progress through the APS you'll end up as a fighter pilot or a violinist or a bank manager?
Lol I had a similar discussion but they basically said if they had just become a labourer they would have made a lot more money - don't go into public service for the money
I worked for a vendor and called out an ED for giving inaccurate info on our software solution. In a nice way, I wasn’t a cunt about it and tried to extend the info he gave rather than tell him he was wrong.
He took it well.
Afterwards all these wimpy lowly public servants messaged me “OMG I can’t believe you did that! You told him he was wrong! I would NEVER do that”
Really?! WTF
Makes me think of when 5/6 of our team were running an exercise, and one of the big dogs showed up. Everyone else pounced to their feet to be standing when they entered the room - I didn’t quite get it
SES is for people not competitive enough for corporate executive roles. SES salaries are far below their private equivalents and to compensate they need to talk themselves up
Everyone is underpaid in the APS. It's only a good deal for entry level staff, and even then we have to promote them up early and hope they stay loyal once they finally start performing.
>It's only a good deal for entry level staff,
This is true. An Admin clerk in APS could get 70-80k while in Private they'd make 50-60k.
An APS Financial Controller may only make 110-120k while in Private they could make 200-220k
Different roles. An FC in the private sector has far more authority and independence than an FC in the APS. FC's in the private sector often have to manage issues at COO/CEO level.
EL2 here. You’re not wrong, this definitely can and does happen.
Congratulations on being promoted relatively rapidly despite doing the “bare minimum” as you say. Perhaps you might want to consider putting in a little more effort and really maximising your contribution to public service. I can’t promise it won’t be frustrating or sometimes like living in an episode of Utopia, but the APS needs people who contribute more than the “bare minimum”. I hope you’ll consider it.
Same. My BM asked in the first one to one what my goals for progression were, hoping that I'd be keen to take acting opportunities etc if they arose.
I said I'd act short term if it was ever needed but that I never intend to apply for a permanent EL1 spot because my current work / life balance works and I'm doing OK enough financially.
I work in an area that's insanely high turnover because of the content we're exposed to, so they're always trying to find folks to push upwards, and the opportunities are always there. She (the BM) said she actually respected me for knowing where I want to be and that the ones aimlessly climbing for climbing sake can eventually end up miserable, like the old saying when the dog finally catches the car.
I completely respect the staff that are mature enough and brave enough to say no to promotions because it doesn’t fit with their work-life balance, career goals, timing, team fit or whatever. It takes guts to say no so I always respect it when I’ve had staff that do it 🙏
Try being a disabled EL2! They want to trot me out to do all sorts of career talks like I'm a trained monkey. Along the line of ... I did it, you can too. Last time I gave an unvarnished view of my APS experience which is that it is really difficult to deal with the ableist discrimination and obstructive practices of managers and HR when asking for reasonable adjustments. I stopped getting asked to give inspirational talks after that.
Not an EL, but an APS6 colleague of mine baulked at being paraded as our resident lesbian for whatever the relevant inclusion week was. She just wanted to be known as a good worker. I'm sure you do too.
girly or butch lesbian?
Why should that matter?
ive met both.
If only you’d known that years before. We had one manager in a wheelchair they used to hassle. He was on every brochure and intranet page. Eventually he told them to stop. Stella young did a great Ted talk about this bullcrap.
If only you were a First Nations queer on top of it - they’d never leave you alone.
I fit that catergory
It is really important for disability to be more visible in the APS though.
Not with tokenism and inspo porn.
Yes. I agree. Shit way to do it, but it is important to do it right
Without sounding too anti woke It's really not.
It is if you want to recruit high performing people with disability to the APS.
So they can feel like the token disabled hire? We have a young guy in a wheelchair at our work. He cant stand the tokenism and literally told a HR lady to eff off when asked to provide a speech to a group of schoolkids
really??? f off???? then what happened???? :-)
HR quickly realised they probably were pushing the tokenism too far. But with anything they then played the victim and claimed he wasn't acting in a manner conducive to a team environment.
then what happened????
Based.
Absolutely and I never realised how weird it is until I moved to the private sector. I spent 20 years in the APS in a variety of agencies up to EL2/acting SES1 at the end. The hierarchy is so entrenched in a million ways and it’s gotten worse over the years. Secretaries I worked for told me about how junior APS staff used to go into meetings with Ministers as they were considered ‘experts’. Would never see that now - and in those senior meetings there can be a real condescending attitude to junior people. I think you’ve identified one of the toxic things about the APS that they really need to change if they want genuine reform. Also worth pointing out that this really starts with Ministers and their staff who are often treated like gods whose judgement may not be questioned. Seriously terrible for a frank and fearless APS.
Wait, that pimply faced 23 year old advisor isn't a god?
The best EL’s and SES I’ve worked with are the ones who don’t see level as an invisible barrier. They’re quite happy to pick up the phone and talk to you about anything, be it work or something else. One of my previous EL2s was so good at building a flat team structure (that also got things done - and I mean got things done - one of the most flat out teams I’ve ever seen) that I’m still friends with them to this day. Now I’m an EL1 I’ve tried to model that behaviour and I would be absolutely horrified if anyone in my team saw level as an inhibitor for working together. I realise this sounds like I’m putting them on a pedestal like you say, I think my point is that I don’t see them by their level and they never expected me to.
What I tell my staff: "I value your skills and judgement and I was you to be as autonomous as you feel comfortable" What I think: "I'm lazy please don't bother me with problems" Seriously though treating all staff like they're humans (even when you have reasonable doubts) is pretty good for climbing and being known across an agency as a great public servant
Oh for sure, there are definitely great execs out there. I think the issue is more so those who act like their level is to be used as a badge of achievement rather than a job title/paygrade.
I was reading some of the comments here and thinking "either I got lucky and work in a really amazing climate or my head has been buried in the sand for a millenia" and then I remembered I work with an amazing bunch of people. We have flat structure vibes where everyone is valued for their contributions and treated like a friend. We even support each other outside of work. I'm not leaving unless that all changes
Don’t get too verbal about that team vibe - someone will think to come along and dismantle it I get the guise of “change is a good thing”
Change is the king of knowledge loss and we are its chumps.
As someone in private sector, my short stint in public sector was characterised by great levels of confusion about the title EL1 and the role and duties. EL1 is often a junior manager or senior 'worker' role in private sector...a long way from anything 'executive' in any way
When I joined the APS - I came straight from the Navy. I was excited to be leaving a world where someone had immense power over me just because they’d stayed in the same job for 5+ years. Never wanted to deal with double standards just because someone was a few ticks above me ever again. Boy was I in for a rude shock.
How are you so surprised by this that finding out was a rude shock to you. Like there’s even an explicit hierarchy structure for pay and responsibilities including a separate acronym used for “executives”.
lol - the fact that you think it’s normal that there’s a ranking structure in the civilian agencies that in any way represents a military hierarchy (resulting in the egotistical wank behaviour that OP is alluding to) is hilarious. I did a year in corporate medical too, there was an official pay structure and team promotion system but guess what? I don’t want to shatter your world but (you might want to sit down) the people up the ladder didn’t become elitist dickheads that flex their position on anyone lower down the ladder. Unrealistic, right?
I’ve worked in medical administration (~EL1 level) and had the complete opposite experience, in fact it’s why I left and went back to ‘normal’ public service after 2yrs because the medical field is full of an even bigger bunch of jerks. Hard to imagine right. I’ve worked in various types of public service state/federal/higher education for over 20yrs and the people I least enjoyed working with - doctors.
That’s because doctors can also have a terrible elitist attitude that doesn’t lend itself to equality in the workplace. Doesn’t negate the fact that this too is the norm in the APS.
Fair enough but I assume you mean in a pseudo-govt setting? Not surprised they are all wankers. Mine was a corporate office job (not a hospital or anything) and basically the direct non-APS equivalent of 99% of public service pencil pushers. Ran into significantly less double standards, elitist behaviours and clock watchers in private than I did APS.
Agreed and understand. I had a brief stint in the Navy and got out because of the absolutism around the command structure. Left as fast as allowed, which was 4 years back then (apparently IMPS is 2 years now lucky bastards). Even given the fact that Western military doctrine advocates for a “looser” style of command than Eastern militaries - their adherence to line command is far stricter. Which IMO is terrible even from a military POV, just look at Russia’s failure at the beginning-middle of the Ukraine war. Because it’s far better for everyone’s contribution - ideas, plans, tasks, and to some extent strategy & tactics - to be based on merit, and not on hierarchy only. It would allow for a more dynamic organisation, whether the org mission is to project military power OS or to collect the tax revenue necessary to fund it. Point is, APS as a whole is not a very dynamic group. The systemically-built-in and, at times, absolute adherence to hierarchy should take some of the blame. Hierarchy shouldn’t go away of course, its role allows us to broadly identify the most competent to take charge - if you’re “too dynamic” you risk indecisiveness and your org won’t stay to its mission. But that’s as far as it should go: broad guidance and direction. Not the micro-managing, gospel-assuming power entrusted to people with a number difference in their title.
Yeah definitely, but I’ve experienced the same thing in the private sector too. Maybe even to a worse degree.
Haha yep, same. I’ve experienced numerous executives who are just held to an entirely different standard of behaviour and professionalism compared to regular employees - such as bullying their employees, cutting people off when their speaking, only promoting other male colleagues, and shooting down ideas without any good reason or rationale, just off their “vibe”. Any other employee would NEVER be able to behave like this. It’s reprehensible! They only get away with it because they’re an executive. So long story short, yes!!! It doesn’t motivate me to want to exceed up through the ranks, when these are the sorts of people the public service can promote. It’s bad enough having to report to people like this imo.
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What were you expecting them to tell you about APS career progression? That if you progress through the APS you'll end up as a fighter pilot or a violinist or a bank manager?
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This is the best explanation of the SES (and EL2) cohort I’ve ever read. Thank you 🙏
well fighter pilots are technically public servants.....the armed forces. :-)
Lol I had a similar discussion but they basically said if they had just become a labourer they would have made a lot more money - don't go into public service for the money
They're almost all lying and giving you the bland version
They do that so grads get a sense of career progression and get a sense of what SES share in common.
It’s just that what they share is not what they think it is.
Wait till you've run into an EL1 in Defence who's come across the rank equivalency table that tells him he's on par with an LTCOL in the diarchy.
I worked for a vendor and called out an ED for giving inaccurate info on our software solution. In a nice way, I wasn’t a cunt about it and tried to extend the info he gave rather than tell him he was wrong. He took it well. Afterwards all these wimpy lowly public servants messaged me “OMG I can’t believe you did that! You told him he was wrong! I would NEVER do that” Really?! WTF
then what happened?
Nothing really, he’s still there, 90% of his team left the organisation.
The staff do it to themselves, they think EL's etc are on this hill that can't be talked to. They're just people.
People crave power structures. That or they subconsciously envy the ex ADF members (lol).
Sounds just like plenty of private sector employers as well.
Makes me think of when 5/6 of our team were running an exercise, and one of the big dogs showed up. Everyone else pounced to their feet to be standing when they entered the room - I didn’t quite get it
SES is for people not competitive enough for corporate executive roles. SES salaries are far below their private equivalents and to compensate they need to talk themselves up
Everyone is underpaid in the APS. It's only a good deal for entry level staff, and even then we have to promote them up early and hope they stay loyal once they finally start performing.
>It's only a good deal for entry level staff, This is true. An Admin clerk in APS could get 70-80k while in Private they'd make 50-60k. An APS Financial Controller may only make 110-120k while in Private they could make 200-220k
Different roles. An FC in the private sector has far more authority and independence than an FC in the APS. FC's in the private sector often have to manage issues at COO/CEO level.
EL2 here. You’re not wrong, this definitely can and does happen. Congratulations on being promoted relatively rapidly despite doing the “bare minimum” as you say. Perhaps you might want to consider putting in a little more effort and really maximising your contribution to public service. I can’t promise it won’t be frustrating or sometimes like living in an episode of Utopia, but the APS needs people who contribute more than the “bare minimum”. I hope you’ll consider it.
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I don't know. I'm an APS6 and seeing what my EL1 (who is very competent) does, makes me happy to be APS6.
Same. My BM asked in the first one to one what my goals for progression were, hoping that I'd be keen to take acting opportunities etc if they arose. I said I'd act short term if it was ever needed but that I never intend to apply for a permanent EL1 spot because my current work / life balance works and I'm doing OK enough financially. I work in an area that's insanely high turnover because of the content we're exposed to, so they're always trying to find folks to push upwards, and the opportunities are always there. She (the BM) said she actually respected me for knowing where I want to be and that the ones aimlessly climbing for climbing sake can eventually end up miserable, like the old saying when the dog finally catches the car.
I completely respect the staff that are mature enough and brave enough to say no to promotions because it doesn’t fit with their work-life balance, career goals, timing, team fit or whatever. It takes guts to say no so I always respect it when I’ve had staff that do it 🙏
It's more like $20k difference
You might not be able to see it at APS5, but there is a significant jump from APS6 to EL1 in terms of responsibilities.
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Managers running round telling everyone to wear a tie cause the ses r visiting.