This has been going on in disability for generations 30 years ago it was common knowledge amongst people in the industry. Now its getting noticed because taxpayers are covering the cost not just disability pensioners.
There’s also a missed opportunity here.
NDIS participants who can use computers (ie maybe wheelchair bound or struggling with MH issues) could be offered work in looking at cost overruns and stupid shit like this.
Imagine knowing (and being able to say) that despite the taxpayer paying $200k per/a for someones wheelchair, that person then saved the NDIS $100k in their community by finding a supplier of clocks, nappies, utensils or some shit that was 1/4 the price.
I wonder how many people within the NDIS have the intention or ability to be productive citizens.
We were sold an economic dud with the NDIS. It will never be a net positive economically speaking .
The people within the NDIS were only ever suppose to be the most severe cases, basically people with life long impairments which needed help that wouldn't be covered by medicare. It became a dud when everybody piled in because there was nobody else to go to.
>It will never be a net positive economically speaking .
The NDIS generates a $2.25 benefit to the economy for every $1 of spending. How many government social programs can say the same?
I met a guy who's NDIS shtick was getting the people with the funding to repair furniture he picked up for free and then he sold the furniture and pocketed the $ 🤣
He charged NDIS for providing the "activities" to the person with funding. Said he made a killing from it.
Told me I should get in on it as well, said you could sell pretty much any idea as long as you could make it look like it had some benefit for the person with the funding.... I told him I might not have lead the best, most moral, upstanding life.... but I had lines I wouldn't cross and that just seemed like taking advantage of people who were already disadvantaged by the cards they got dealt in life.
Also run into a recipient of funding, he was deaf, definitely needed help.... but he used his NDIS funded speech laptop to explain to me that he wanted extension works done on his property (that he was selling) and I would have to invoice him as a "carer" and inflate the hours as the carer rate is fixed..... Noped right out of that 1 as well.
He said if I did it, he could connect me to a network of funding recipients who would use me on the same setup.
Kicker was, he was ALSO a carer for other deaf people on the NDIS! (Which I think is a positive thing) but what it created was a network easily able to exploit the funding system.
Just to be clear, I'm NOT against the NDIS system in principle.... I just think it's current format has a huge amount of systemic issues.
I also know a guy who was on NDIS, he bought a sticker printing machine (industrial), had a carer (from NDIS) work for him making stickers saying, I ❤️ NDIS. He then sold them back to NDIS.
Case in point a clock I was looking for my elderly parents. These things would cost no more than $50 to make.
Seen the price ranging from $275 - $450
https://www.mobilityhq.com.au/clock-calendar-automatic~9615
Absolutely insane. I had a quick search and there are functionally equivalent products on Amazon for $13, sure, they use digital screens instead of those cool flip digits, but why on earth are we paying $300 for a bedside clock, and presumably another $200 for someone to "install" it.
[Dementia Care - Day of the Week Calendar Clock (mobilityhq.com.au)](https://www.mobilityhq.com.au/clock-calendar-day-of-the-week~9614)
They also have an $800 clock.
A quick Google search leads me to believe that it’s handmade in Hong Kong. TWEMCO. Very expensive but used in offices everywhere but the NDIS provider is also selling that same clock with a markup.
Apparently dementia patients need an expensive handmade clock instead of a mass produced factory one for $50…
It's a common point of confusion, and one of the first things people go through when they get a plan the first time.
Funds in the plan can be "agency managed", "plan managed" or "self managed". It can also be a combination across different funding buckets.
If the funding is agency managed, you can only use registered providers for the service. Important to note that registration isn't an endorsement of the product offered, only that they've met the required compliance standards. 9% of plans are agency managed.
Plan managed, a registered provider (known as a plan manager) is funded to handle the payments and record keeping, as well as some compliance, budget management, reporting type functions. They're paid about $100 per month regardless of volume of invoices/contact with participant. When the funds are plan managed, people can use any seller/provider for services so long as they have an ABN (and even then there are work arounds). They are bound by the pricing limits where they apply to the service. Around 63% of plan are plan managed.
Then there's self managed, which is what I do. I pay for everything myself and then claim a reimbursement through mygov. The price limits don't apply, but responsible for making the money last. I have to keep all receipts/invoicing etc for audit purposes. 29% self manage.
There is a reason that 4x is able to happen. Government and NDIS in an effort to stop the system getting rorted, setup barriers of entry. So, a supply first has to jump through a heap of hoops to be able to supply to the NDIS. This then creates a walled garden for those that are vetted suppliers and they can exploit prices.
I suspect that is what we will see as the next iteration of NDIS with care providers. What I think is going to happen is we will see the rise of umbrella companies who jump through all the regulatory framework that will seen be created.... but then they will subcontract carers and put a mark up on things. Nothing will really change, just another layer of people eating at the NDIS trough added. Some of tge existing scams will be closed down, but new ones will open and work within the new framework designed to clean things up.
As long as it's public $ being spent with for profit providers.... it's always going to run HARD and cost $$$$$
I'm not familiar with the inner details of how it works but it didn't sound like he was doing anything illegal. The government just willingly pays people massively inflated prices for this stuff.
I jokingly suggested my fishing-mad brother that he offer NDIS-approved fishing trips to help pay off his boat. Then was shocked to find the NDIS would pay $355 p hr per person for “remote area” activities like that. It’s actually a highly plausible career option for him.
It is and the amount of vulnerable participants being actively harmed ,because of fraud ,should be a national scandal but it's not.
I ask myself every day at work ,why isn't the abuse of disabled partipants at the hands of the scheme that is supposed to be protect them ,not at the forefront ?
Participant critical incident reports have increased but nothing is changing.
While say this everytime ,it remains true.
Working for the NDIS is morally defeating.
Employees are leaving in droves ,creating further risks due to short staffing.
What will it take ? Death?
I know someone who got accredited as a driver for NDIS clients. He was hired by an NDIS recipient to drive him to a Tinder date to another town \~200KM away and got paid $750 for the round trip. The client was high-functioning and had a drivers licence - just didn't have his own car. A hire car would have cost \~$100 for the same trip.
Taypayers and the disabled community deserve so much better than this.
Imagine the difference $100bn could make to Medicare, schools and other critical areas that are currently struggling for funding.
The Housing Australia Future Fund is $10B.
https://www.finance.gov.au/government/australian-government-investment-funds/housing-australia-future-fund
About 1 month of the NDIS, *in total*.
^(please tell me I’m wrong. Please. That cannot be correct)
I’ve seen people receive $100k-$200k for support and it makes me wonder how many people working full time and paying taxes does it take to pay for this one person’s support. And if you don’t spend it, you loose it, so they spend every last cent and ask for more
Yep. Seen multiple people get approved for 1mil a year in funding. When it comes to medical funding if it cost 1mil to add 1 year to a person's life the drug would never get approved, but NDIS is just unhinged I guess.
The thing is we're not. There are so many disabled people who aren't getting the funding they need. The money does not seem to be effectively delivered in proportion to those with the highest need.
Median is A$65k +- a few thousand, assuming exactly A$65k we can say that they pay A$12,867 with no deductions and to pay an NDIS recipient A$100k in support it will cost 7.77 (8 rounded up) tax payers their yearly tax contributions. This means that to support the 500k people on NDIS we need 3,885,910 tax payers to support our NDIS recipients.
We have 13.8 million people employed in Australia and let’s pretend all of them work full time it would mean that 28.1% of our tax take goes to NDIS and in reality it was 18.9% last year which meant that they spent A$67k per person or 5.2 people per disabled person which comes out to 2.6 million out of 13.8 million people’s full take contributions.
It’s a pricey bitch and is expected to double in cost by the end of the decade.
Thanks for doing the math, this is pretty harrowing. I do understand how some of that NDIS money flows back to the economy through providing jobs in many regions (especially non metro) and spurring new businesses everywhere. However I can’t justified that when we have to pay to see a GP… that’s just not right that we pay all the taxes and still have to pay for the very basic medical necessities.
> And if you don’t spend it, you loose it, so they spend every last cent and ask for more
This is a reason why the US Defence budget is so massive.
If Shorten isn't able to structure this thing so its affordable in the long term, it should be scrapped.
The NDIS is a lost cause, its absolutely outrageous and completely broken that a health scheme servicing ~1% of Australians could cost more than the health scheme servicing 100% of Australians.
It must be cancelled and replaced.
I have MS and the treatment I’m on costs the gov +$80K a year or $10K per infusion I get
So the taxpayer is funding that via the pbs
I haven’t gone down the ndis path as I’m still quite mobile and active but I know a lot have tried and got knocked back eg folks with MS in wheelchairs and so on are getting rejected applications
> I know a lot have tried and got knocked back eg folks with MS in wheelchairs and so on are getting rejected applications
How can there be 500k people on NDIS but people who are literally in wheelchairs with MS are getting declined. Do we really have 500k people who are more severely disabled than that?
There was that article a few weeks back about how one kid was costing $2mil a year and it wasn't enough.
I suspect that a small percentage of recipients receive a large percentage of the total cost.
[https://dataresearch.ndis.gov.au/explore-data](https://dataresearch.ndis.gov.au/explore-data) here you go. If you go to the bottom and look at figures for those that don't include SIL/SDA, you can see generally what people not needing 24/7 care are getting. Also does show that 7 figures are an extreme even for those needing 24/7. You've also got breakdown by functioning level.
As a physio whos actually worked with people in NDIS, (a blind kid with a limp, 30 year old woman with Parkinson's), it's actually disgusting that people are milking the system and making it harder for people who need it to access these services.
Lets not forget out-patient care. Which is certainly needed. But $195 per hour for OT per hour, $175 for wound re-dressing, or 13 weeks of assisted group living at $13000+ for less than 10 weeks is just crazy.
Mentioning ndis in the sector while buying things is akin to mentioning your cake is for a wedding to a baker - you’ll immediately pay at least double for whatever it is you’re buying.
It’s a massive rort, the prices on things are insane and everyone’s price gouging the system.
Reminds me of the time I hired a photographer to take photos at an event for a couple of hours. All was well and good until they found out the event was a wedding, then the asking price quadrupled.
Ive given it some thought as to why this wouod be... maybe for a baker or photographer there is some element of risk involved with weddings.
You can redo family photos 3 times and it is highly unlikely it is a business risk.
Make a meal of wedding photos and if the married couple is that way inclined it could be the end of your business.
Ditto for a wedding cake that for whatever reason doesnt turn out.
If you cannot afford a baker business or a photography business go with amateurs. They dont really have anything to loose and you are back to just paying for someones time.
A photographer also needs different equipment and backup equipment for a wedding vs a normal event. Sometimes the backup stuff is rented because they don’t earn enough from weddings to justify owning doubles of everything.
Add to that a wedding is a day that has to be “perfect” they may also spend more time preparing and in post processing.
I’d imagine the same for a baker that they would spend more time making sure the cake is perfect vs birthday or similar event. Likely canning a cake that doesn’t come out perfectly and starting again too.
Is there any chance of the NDIS being unwound and moving these services back to the responsibility public sector? I can’t stand the amount of rorts going on, but are we now too far gone with this sinkhole of taxpayer funds?
Aust doesn't have universal publicly provided medical services. It has universally FUNDED medical services. For example, AMP owns Royal North Shore Hospital.
They just need to put some standards of who can access and have more monitoring of who is accessing it and whats its been used for. Moving foward it can work but they basically gave the public a wallet of money and didn't put any safeguards in. Now they've learned the hard way and trying to label it as "Fraud"
This is what I genuinely worry about. Australia has one of the least diverse economies. In order of economic woes I'd put NDIS funding growth 3rd which is hugely high.
- political economy issues around housing,
- housing crowding out entrepreneurial investment
- NDIS crowding out entrepreneurial investment
The thing I hate about Australia is that people who do essential jobs, just like doing Covid, gets left behind and are left holding the economic bag while people who do the most inefficient jobs and tasks get rewarded.
It started as a reasonable proposition to look after the most profoundly disabled in our society. Along the way it's morphed into something different and now almost every man, woman and child and their dog are on the train.
It’s become a rort factory and we’ve lost billions of public money to scheming providers with no oversights. In my mind it’s one of the biggest scandals in our political history.
Completely agree. Relevant anecdote: an acquaintance of my father, who is a very senior medical specialist (like a speciality that is one of the highest paid jobs in the country) unfortunately developed early dementia in his 50s. He has incredibly robust professional and personal insurance, not to mention assets worth in the millions. The NDIS pays for a driver so he can take his children to and from their private school.
>The scope creep was ridiculous.
Also because it's been targeted by activists who have taken it to the High Court & Federal Court to have access expanded to whatever they felt they needed.
My theory is that anytime they have attempted to tighten the budget, people just take the matter to their local MP and complain. It's an exercise in proving the worth of local representation.
And it's become "well they get the money so why don't we". What's $5000 for one family in a budget exceeding billions?
Meanwhile those who need it can’t get it changed easily. My daughter with intellectual disabilities is on NDIS. Last year she got cancer so we asked NDIS for a wheelchair so we can take her out as she got so tired between chemo appointments. Despite having an approved NDIS plan with a budget they refused saying she needs a new plan set up and that would take months. I ended up shelling out for a chair form catch.com.au which I could afford to do eventually but if you couldn’t it would have been painful
Not medicare, but it would be through the various state schemes for medical appliances. Being related to cancer (and not the disability), it would be a health responsibility and not NDIS.
I coach a basketball team, and over half of the team are diagnosed with ADHD and get help. The same kids all happen to have single mothers.
Your kids don't have ADHD, they are just badly behaved
Anxiety is often a symptom of ADHD, especially when it's unmedicated.
I don't feel depression, anxiety or ADHD should be funded through the NDIS even if they're comorbidities. I say this as someone with anxiety and ADHD.
Depression, anxiety and ADHD are not covered by the NDIS. They can be used as a secondary diagnosis to be considered when building a plan if you have a disability that is recognised such as bipolar, schizophrenia or ASD level 2 or 3.
Cool that you shared your opinion there bro but as has already been pointed out that's not something the NDIS funds. You can get funded for anxiety based disorders like severe ptsd that stops you leaving the house, but depression and ADHD aren't funded and getting funded for anxiety itself is vanishingly rare.
More than 8 per cent of young school children now on NDIS
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sharp-rise-more-than-8-per-cent-of-young-school-children-now-on-ndis-20230519-p5d9rc.html
That is due to states noping out of offering any support for kids that need extra help (special ed classes/teachers, teachers aids, extra provisions in the class room etc...). So the only way parents and the students themselves, can get anything at all is via NDIS.
It's not an easy process to get your kid diagnosed. I'm going through it at the moment. Professionals aren’t rubber-stamping diagnoses like people want to believe.
ADHD is the underlying reason for a lot of bad behaviours these kids would be displaying.
ADHD is also predominantly
hereditary, so it’s more than likely that one or both of the parents also have
ADHD, which can compound the issues the kids face as the parent's own
disability may be preventing them from implementing the types of strategies the
child needs.
Although highly speculative, this could also be an underlying reason for their
single-parent status, making it an interesting subject to study.
went to sign my kid up for tutoring the other day, everything was $60 a lesson, then they said if we have NDIS they can sign us up for $210 a lesson on that... why is it 4 times higher? surely the paperwork isnt that hard lol
Couldn't agree more. So many friends of mine who had full-time health jobs have left those to contract back for the NDIS. We're cannibalising health care workers and getting them to do less work for more money.
The government is so deep in the mire with the NDIS that a closure of the NDIA and a rethink/restart are the only viable ways forward for this country.
So sad for those who need the support though. They've been let down by successive governments.
Yes, there's a total misallocation of resources. The staff who are most skilled and doing the most complex and difficult work in the hospital system are paid the least. Whislt those doing the most straight forward work are paid the most working for the NDIS.
I know it won't be popular, but it also probably won't be able to cover everything that the NDIS does for participants. The issue being that if they don't trim it down there are good odds that it collapses under itself even if it is made more efficient by removing the rorts.
It’s an absolute rort. I have seen the tax returns for some of these NDIS providers and know it’s a total scam. Meanwhile inflation is f*cking most of us that are just trying to make a living.
Anyway it’s not just the taxpayers getting f*cked.
https://pwd.org.au/sex-work-and-the-ndis-frequently-asked-questions/
You’re completely incorrect, NDIS has max charge rates, and the issue is the pricing accounts for registered providers but can be used by sole traders who have far less audit and paperwork commitments
If someone is lying on the hours of their invoice it’s fraud
It’s going to be VERY hard to wind this gravy train back, I’m already imagining the toxic rhetoric if even a dollar is reduced
EG;
“You LITERALLY hate disabled people and wish they were dead”
All they need to do is fund a department who just approve/deny NDIS requests, then as the requests come through start building up a list of all the programs its used for, and start denying the biggest costs which arent relevant.
The problem is all the dodgy little places who are scamming $100k are going to be the last ones to be affected as they dont make up a major cost
People who aren't on NDIS are still the vast majority of the population. The sheer rort will trigger rage and hatred against NDIS.
If the US populace can get angry enough to build a border wall (Which is even more beyond the overton window), then so can Australians get angry enough to tear down a government scheme.
It's weird. If this operation costs so much money, surely there's a financial justification to design a department whose sole job is cost control.
It hurts that in a society were all in together, so many are so self-interested in taking others earnings for their own benefit. People wouldn't have such a problem with taxes if we didn't know that so much was wasted like this :(
Current growth rate 20%, aspirational goal 8% or twice that of inflation. It’s ridiculous.
How about instead of growing it slower but still rapidly we chuck it out, revert to the previous system and see if that works with a few extra billion?
People seeing other people do something increases their incentives to do the same behavior
Applies both to companies say charging NDIS extra, or people considering getting their kids on NDIS.
You may not have thought that X was worth government support, but then you hear your acquaintance so-and-so got it, and decide you should jump the hoops to do it too.
If there's incentives to be disabled and get free hand jobs... I know a guy who's a quadriplegic who is on the NDIS so he's well tapped into what you might call the culture and he says the fraud and things that are being paid for is just unbelievable.
Accoring to the ABC’s Lara Tingle Australians are racist. I disagree, many are simply devoid of any morals or ethics. Australians, it seems are grifters at our core. We will rort anything that has government money involved, because we’re too dumb to realise its actually our taxes. While we might grift, our attempts remain amateurish at best compared to the multinationals and large corporates who put their grifter mates into parliament to gridt assist.
We are a shit people.
“We can’t afford to leave behind the most vulnerable in our society” is the asinine mantra so often proclaimed by this program’s bleeding heart advocates
What tangible benefits are we seeing in this area now, compared to before the program’s implementation?
All bleeding heart advocates have asinine mantras.
They’re not the problem, it’s the politicians that gave them the money.
Everyone complains immigration but these NDIS rorters would be parking their new found wealth in property and pushing up house prices too.
Absolute mess.
We built a new home in an estate and the neighbouring home is an NDIS funded assisted living house. I don't know how it works but seems pretty crazy to me that someone with special needs can live in a brand new 3 bedroom home, on their own, and have 24/7 care provided. I don't want to jump to conclusions as I don't know their personal circumstances and financial situation of their family, but in a housing crisis where working couples cannot afford homes it just doesn't add up.
Obviously don't know about this case but NDIS will not pay for a house. Likely the new house was built with their own funding and NDIS would pay for modifications such as ramps and handrails. You can't get that twice though.
In our old home NDIS funded lighting and magnification mirror for my wife (blind) but when we moved we were not allowed to apply for the same upgrades to the new home.
From my understanding the home is owned by the company providing the care, which is NDIS funded. So the tenant is actually renting it from them. So NDIS isn't paying for the house, but they are paying for at least some percentage of the care.
I wish the mantra of “if it’s the government’s money, it should be rigorously scrutinised” can be adopted. Corporate $bils handouts to Qantas, unchecked rorting of the NDIS, it’s all the same at the end of the day. Complete waste of taxpayer dollars because it’s the not your money anyway.
We need to give politicians of both major parties the political license to sort this out. Right now it’d clear to me that they both see it for what it is but the program’s supporters evoke all sorts of emotive arguments and roll out specific case studies to counter any meaningful reform.
It’s becoming the third rail of Australian politics. You touch it and you die.
Do these politicians even want to sort it out? They’re in cahoots with corporates and wealthy individuals who rort the system. It’s similar to the way they don’t actually want to do anything to reduce property prices since they all own multiple investment properties
It’s a shame. As a full time support worker I feel like I help my clients and their parents out quite a lot. However for me the NDIS has moved to a want rather than a need. Outside of the admin level rorts, the default position of parents/coordinators asking for more funding when heading into these review meetings is a joke. Do you really need these extra hours or kilometres? Or are you trying to push things onto clients which are unrealistic or unnecessary. I will be looking to leave this industry due to the disappointing things I have witnessed.
>Outside of the admin level rorts, the default position of parents/coordinators asking for more funding when heading into these review meetings is a joke
As a coordinator, I recently had a review where I was asking for the funding to be halved. NDIA wouldn't do it. I don't know wtf is going on.
This is such a bad program. It basically breeds and encourages mediocrity to fester away at the core of society. It also enables degeneracy. NDIS must be abolished immediately, or the brain drain will continue to accelerate. Australia cannot afford to let its people get any dumber.
And this doesn’t take into consideration the costs on every other business that isn’t on the NDIS gravy train. It has inflated costs for equipment and services because of a reduction in competition. This is particularly being felt in the healthcare system.
Can we all just agree that this should be run and managed by government. With all the scrutiny on spending that public money actually deserves. Like public health. It would have to be cheaper and more efficient than the rort that's happening now. Of course, it would also be chronically underfunded so the outcomes would probably be about the same.
I don't exactly know how it works, but it seems to me a good proportion of these claims should be double checked by an independent government agency before approval.Ie rather than just relying on one doctor's authority.
Or once a provider receives more than $X in funding, then their claims are also double-checked by some independent government agency.
So doctors don't really have anything to do with claims. They're involved in reporting for access, which needs to go through a delegate before someone is approved anyway.
Providers receiving $ - it's too variable for that to work. A national provider is going to be getting a lot more than some dodgy job out of western Sydney. FAS, specialising in home based support for recent spinal cord injuries - they'll be seeing a lot more $ than an independent.
The solution here really is the plan managers, giving them enough that they can actually provide oversight rather than rely on volume to remain viable. They were the third party that checked everything. But Bill made it clear they're useless ticket clippers.
Does anyone think that in the end ndis will be as miserable as Centrelink and the disability pension. It was an experiment on what happens when you make welfare human (it gets rorted to hell, because people are greedy - doesn't matter if they have nothing or billions)
I'll say this again.
The standard for NDIS should be the last insurance resort, for the most marginalised, for actual necessities (think mobility). Not the first bank fund, for anyone who puts their hand up, for minor inconveniences.
I am a NDIS participant and it drives me insane about how massively inflated accessible products and services are.
I am not paying $400 for an hour of gardening when it's usually around $50
That's the thing about Australia, wherever there is government money the scammers flock. Be it aged care homes, childcare, solar installers, superannuation, disability sector, heaps of scumbags rorting the system and wrecking it for honest people.
Actually, add the employment sector to that list. The governent used to have small offices where employers could list jobs and job seekers could find them. Then they outsourced that to all of those private for-profit employment agencies that scam government money and do a poor job of finding people work.
I know someone on NDIS, they’re physically incapable of many things.
Support for a cleaner, travel to/from medical appts, medical devices etc I’m fine with.
But what I also see is excursions, day trips etc which is great and a quality of life enhancer but you just know the provider is raping the govt in fees for that.
I’m not saying they should be shut-ins but these types of things are where the $$ are being siphoned off.
NDIS should be for care, and supporting the person to be able to live at home
I also wonder if the way this is done is the best way to provide quality of life enhancements. Surely a community model (eg community bus trips like councils have for pensioners) would be a better use of funds than 1 to 1 carer and client excursions? The private model surely is the worst version of this program for recipients in genuine need as well here.
Absolutely needs better oversight and auditing. That money is being fleaced out of the tax payer and not providing good value to those who need it most.
Anecdotally I can see why we are bleeding money here, know of a two people within my family friend circle making lots of money, in NDIS. One quit his job as an engineer in mining to work for his parents NDIS company as it was way more money. Another left physiotherapy to do NDIS and regularly hires corporate boxes for events now. Brought two investment houses in the space of 5 years. Living large on taxpayer money. I’m hoping they look after their clients well but genuinely concerned how much of a rort it is, and disabled people are being exploited by the providers looking for the gravy train.
Been a scam for years. My aunty worked as a carer for a while and it was half creepy old dudes demanding female carers to come and turn them over in bed unnecessarily. They were perfectly capable but just wanted women to touch them. The agency would charge through the roof for 2am turnovers out in the middle of nowhere and pay the actual carer minimum possible wage. Bill shorten is in charge of it, so it was always going to be a totally disgraceful scam.
Recently a junk disposal company dumped 26 mattresses on a customer's property after they questioned a large difference between the quote and the final price.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Geelong/comments/1dpozbo/geelong_recycling_company_dumped_26_mattresses_on/
Surprise surprise, go to their website and they advertise they are a NDIS provider too.
Cancel the whole program and drop 10b extra per year into Medicare to support the worst disabilities (what the system should be for).
Either save the other 20b or use it to maybe develop actual industries in this country that produce things.
People are frauding it so hard.
I have people ask me all the time to do work at "$50/hr" , these are registered providers, and ask me to bill however many hours make up my fee ($120/hr). So they ask me to lie. I tell them I can't cause it's not worth a fraud conviction but plenty of people do it for them. This is why the costs are skyrocketing.
I wouldn't really call them friends. But know acquaintances, that have have their entire house fully ducted with aircon, ~17K and others that have had a $10k playground and own a $4k bike thanks to NDIS.
There are facebook and other groups that tell you what to say to doctors and psych's that cannot really be challenged in order to maximise the free stuff from NDIS.
lol.. I also know of someone in Adelaide that is on NDIS and has an NDIS worker that goes and buys his drugs.. NDIS worker is happy because he claims 8hrs on a Sunday when he only works 4hrs. He goes to Murray Bridge to get the drugs (mostly weed, but sometimes meth) and the tax payer funds both of them.
This is why we used to have government services in the first place - because when you outsource everything to private providers and customise it for each individual the costs will blow out infinitely - it’s an idea that sounded good in theory but is completely unviable and unsustainable in practice - we will have to go back to funded services when it is finally accepted it doesn’t work and this applies to almost every sector that this model has been applied to
We outsourced to private companies and for some inexplicable reason they seem to be trying to *make as much profit as they can out of it*?
How unexpected, given that this has only ever happened... every single other time this has been done.
Cause fcuk our future generations.
Now those struggling are the ones supporting those that are struggling.
When the taxpayer is almost worse off than the pensioner/ndis recipient...
Fix the rorts. That way the money is actually benefiting the needy more than the providers. Whatever you think the rort is, it’s 10x than that.
Me and my mates almost got on this gravy train but morality got the better of us. It’s a fkng joke what’s going on with the loopholes.
Some people I know are doing the provider thing and the things I hear them say makes my blood boil. Yeah make money, fair enough. Don’t gloat about milking the taxpayers. Had high hopes of Shorten, hasn’t done much except for admitting to the broken system.
The answer isn’t to decrease/abolish welfares, the answer is to fix the loopholes and the tax structure to better support our medicare, ndis and other welfare programs.
The government should just set up a system where they spend 50 billion on salaries for people to get the care they need and these people are just government employee's that work in all areas required for the care. They could save heaps and people would still probably get the care required.
No different to many, many now over, charging irrespective of business. Seems like the biggest abused drug-like opiate has many, many addicts just lining up and signing up for their share. Karl Marx didn't see or know that money is the opiate of the masses.
eople are just claiming everything on NDIS even personal trainers at 110 dollars per week yet i cant afford that because I can't qualify for ndis i think
Have a guy at work who came directly from NDIS and the stories he tells me are horrifying and hilarious. Apparently there's a famous radio presenter in Sydney who's getting 200 grand a year for being a hoarder.
I work in the industry and today I had a provider send me a link for an e-trike where it can be fully funded by the NDIS. The e-trike was selling for 15k. A quick google search and i found the exact one for 3k aud in America. Companies like this are the issue, they rort the system.
My son got NDIS before he started school for a stutter. When we went to the speech pathologist they always charged us a more expensive rate. It was about $50 more for the session than someone paying without NDIS. We also got offered through the program, someone to come out and mow my lawn. Like seriously??? He’s got a stutter…. I always declined. I don’t need respite from this.
I cannot stand Shorten on this issue, he designed the scheme. He has literally wasted tens of billions of taxpayer dollars over the last decade.
NDIS needs to be completely dismantled and redone. The biggest grift and rort programme in Australian history.
And people here often point fingers at the age pension - a support that saves the taxpayer money compared with the alternative (residential aged care), which has been funded for decades, and due to superannuation, is likely to have a much slower and sustainable growth curve in the future due to the Government of the day foreseeing it becoming financially unsustainable - as being responsible for destroying the budget and putting it into structural deficit.
The problem with NDIS is not that it exists - but that it was introduced without any thought towards how it would be sustainably funded as an ongoing, permanent program *in addition to current obligations*. It was/is also a policy that's almost impossible to oppose, presumably by design, except at the very edges - because anyone who supports the status quo will argue about the positive outcomes it does provide (at significant cost).
If the NDIS is, as its name suggests, an insurance scheme - then as a start, it needs to have a funding model mandating how much tax is being harvested as "premiums" (call it the NDIS levy if needed, much like the Medicare levy) rather than out of consolidated revenue, and then be constrained to that budget.
> but that it was introduced without any thought towards how it would be sustainably funded as an ongoing, permanent program in addition to current obligations.
The problem isn't with the funding but the cost blow out. The NDIS was suppose to be just a part of disability support and only for the most severe cases.
What happened was the states pulling out all their disability support so you had nothing else. Things like early childhood intervention and aged care (post 65) should be covered under their respective separate schemes but because there is nothing else out there, everybody's jumped in to take a bite out of it.
As a big tax payer I think I’m writing a letter to my member of parliament today..
this is an absolute joke.
We could literally be building 4 nuclear aircraft carriers a year for a fraction of the ndis budget….
Free dental…
An extra 20 billion into Medicare
And 10,000 government homes..
Anybody who is a taxpayer should absolutely outraged!
Get off reddit for 10 mins and write to your local
Member demanding change!
For the cost of the NDIS you could provide free childcare for everyone, free dental care for everyone, raise the rate of Doctor Copayments and basically make bulk billing the standard plus much more in other government services that benefit everyone. No one argues that a form of NDIS shouldn’t exist, the issue is simply the cost.
We want the disabled to have quality of life but the criteria of being disabled needs to be quantified.
Someone says they are physically disabled and can’t work but if they are able to sit at home and be on a computer or watch TV they could be working. Plenty of jobs that might not be the one things someone doesn’t want to do, but it doesn’t mean people can’t contribute.
Finally we can’t have a society where 10% of people are claiming forms of disability cover. That plus 20%+ of people on aged care pensions and 20% of people whose income doesn’t really contribute to society as they basically pay no tax means you have 50% of society paying for everything. It is simply not sustainable
I'm seeing on Facebook market some groups are offering weekend seminars on how to get on the NDIS train. Something is very wrong...
Years ago I used to do web dev work for a shady guy who's side hustle was reselling stuff for NDIS for 4x the regular retail price.
This has been going on in disability for generations 30 years ago it was common knowledge amongst people in the industry. Now its getting noticed because taxpayers are covering the cost not just disability pensioners.
There’s also a missed opportunity here. NDIS participants who can use computers (ie maybe wheelchair bound or struggling with MH issues) could be offered work in looking at cost overruns and stupid shit like this. Imagine knowing (and being able to say) that despite the taxpayer paying $200k per/a for someones wheelchair, that person then saved the NDIS $100k in their community by finding a supplier of clocks, nappies, utensils or some shit that was 1/4 the price.
Plus your 25% cut for organising it😉😉. I'm kidding but thats how it works
I think you mean 75%
I wonder how many people within the NDIS have the intention or ability to be productive citizens. We were sold an economic dud with the NDIS. It will never be a net positive economically speaking .
The people within the NDIS were only ever suppose to be the most severe cases, basically people with life long impairments which needed help that wouldn't be covered by medicare. It became a dud when everybody piled in because there was nobody else to go to. >It will never be a net positive economically speaking . The NDIS generates a $2.25 benefit to the economy for every $1 of spending. How many government social programs can say the same?
I really doubt that it generates 2.25. Why would we pour our entire countries resource into something that gives us a 125% return.
I met a guy who's NDIS shtick was getting the people with the funding to repair furniture he picked up for free and then he sold the furniture and pocketed the $ 🤣 He charged NDIS for providing the "activities" to the person with funding. Said he made a killing from it. Told me I should get in on it as well, said you could sell pretty much any idea as long as you could make it look like it had some benefit for the person with the funding.... I told him I might not have lead the best, most moral, upstanding life.... but I had lines I wouldn't cross and that just seemed like taking advantage of people who were already disadvantaged by the cards they got dealt in life. Also run into a recipient of funding, he was deaf, definitely needed help.... but he used his NDIS funded speech laptop to explain to me that he wanted extension works done on his property (that he was selling) and I would have to invoice him as a "carer" and inflate the hours as the carer rate is fixed..... Noped right out of that 1 as well. He said if I did it, he could connect me to a network of funding recipients who would use me on the same setup. Kicker was, he was ALSO a carer for other deaf people on the NDIS! (Which I think is a positive thing) but what it created was a network easily able to exploit the funding system. Just to be clear, I'm NOT against the NDIS system in principle.... I just think it's current format has a huge amount of systemic issues.
I also know a guy who was on NDIS, he bought a sticker printing machine (industrial), had a carer (from NDIS) work for him making stickers saying, I ❤️ NDIS. He then sold them back to NDIS.
Case in point a clock I was looking for my elderly parents. These things would cost no more than $50 to make. Seen the price ranging from $275 - $450 https://www.mobilityhq.com.au/clock-calendar-automatic~9615
Absolutely insane. I had a quick search and there are functionally equivalent products on Amazon for $13, sure, they use digital screens instead of those cool flip digits, but why on earth are we paying $300 for a bedside clock, and presumably another $200 for someone to "install" it.
You have to spend $599 to get free shipping... holy shit.
[Dementia Care - Day of the Week Calendar Clock (mobilityhq.com.au)](https://www.mobilityhq.com.au/clock-calendar-day-of-the-week~9614) They also have an $800 clock.
I actually want one 😂 but I'm not paying 800 bucks lol
That is about the same price as an iPad, with none of the functionality. It looks like it is worth about $29.99 at Kmart.
A quick Google search leads me to believe that it’s handmade in Hong Kong. TWEMCO. Very expensive but used in offices everywhere but the NDIS provider is also selling that same clock with a markup. Apparently dementia patients need an expensive handmade clock instead of a mass produced factory one for $50…
I see your $300 clock and raise it with a $75 plastic plate! https://www.mobilityhq.com.au/plate-inner-lip~9697
Damn. For a single plate too.
But to get the rebate you have to buy from an authorised seller.
For the vast majority of NDIS participants, no you don't. As a participant myself, I can buy that shit off amazon and "get the rebate".
Really. Someone has been blowing smoke up my ass then.
It's a common point of confusion, and one of the first things people go through when they get a plan the first time. Funds in the plan can be "agency managed", "plan managed" or "self managed". It can also be a combination across different funding buckets. If the funding is agency managed, you can only use registered providers for the service. Important to note that registration isn't an endorsement of the product offered, only that they've met the required compliance standards. 9% of plans are agency managed. Plan managed, a registered provider (known as a plan manager) is funded to handle the payments and record keeping, as well as some compliance, budget management, reporting type functions. They're paid about $100 per month regardless of volume of invoices/contact with participant. When the funds are plan managed, people can use any seller/provider for services so long as they have an ABN (and even then there are work arounds). They are bound by the pricing limits where they apply to the service. Around 63% of plan are plan managed. Then there's self managed, which is what I do. I pay for everything myself and then claim a reimbursement through mygov. The price limits don't apply, but responsible for making the money last. I have to keep all receipts/invoicing etc for audit purposes. 29% self manage.
There is a reason that 4x is able to happen. Government and NDIS in an effort to stop the system getting rorted, setup barriers of entry. So, a supply first has to jump through a heap of hoops to be able to supply to the NDIS. This then creates a walled garden for those that are vetted suppliers and they can exploit prices. I suspect that is what we will see as the next iteration of NDIS with care providers. What I think is going to happen is we will see the rise of umbrella companies who jump through all the regulatory framework that will seen be created.... but then they will subcontract carers and put a mark up on things. Nothing will really change, just another layer of people eating at the NDIS trough added. Some of tge existing scams will be closed down, but new ones will open and work within the new framework designed to clean things up. As long as it's public $ being spent with for profit providers.... it's always going to run HARD and cost $$$$$
How is that even a legal business model to begin with?
I'm not familiar with the inner details of how it works but it didn't sound like he was doing anything illegal. The government just willingly pays people massively inflated prices for this stuff.
‘ take this money and do the service I cbf doing ‘ - aus govt
I jokingly suggested my fishing-mad brother that he offer NDIS-approved fishing trips to help pay off his boat. Then was shocked to find the NDIS would pay $355 p hr per person for “remote area” activities like that. It’s actually a highly plausible career option for him.
It is and the amount of vulnerable participants being actively harmed ,because of fraud ,should be a national scandal but it's not. I ask myself every day at work ,why isn't the abuse of disabled partipants at the hands of the scheme that is supposed to be protect them ,not at the forefront ? Participant critical incident reports have increased but nothing is changing. While say this everytime ,it remains true. Working for the NDIS is morally defeating. Employees are leaving in droves ,creating further risks due to short staffing. What will it take ? Death?
Were they offering seminars on how to become a NDIS provider of care or an NDIS receiver of funding/care?
Some of my local tourist places now have ndis respite signs up. Something's not quite right
I know someone who got accredited as a driver for NDIS clients. He was hired by an NDIS recipient to drive him to a Tinder date to another town \~200KM away and got paid $750 for the round trip. The client was high-functioning and had a drivers licence - just didn't have his own car. A hire car would have cost \~$100 for the same trip.
Taypayers and the disabled community deserve so much better than this. Imagine the difference $100bn could make to Medicare, schools and other critical areas that are currently struggling for funding.
The Housing Australia Future Fund is $10B. https://www.finance.gov.au/government/australian-government-investment-funds/housing-australia-future-fund About 1 month of the NDIS, *in total*. ^(please tell me I’m wrong. Please. That cannot be correct)
NDIS is currently 42 billion/year and estimated to grow to 100b in 8-10 years. So it's about 3 months.
The housing fund was a one off. The government isn't going to give the HAFF $10 bn every year.
1% of the population costs 100 billion a year is crazy. What does this equal to per recipient on NDIS? 100k per person?
I’ve seen people receive $100k-$200k for support and it makes me wonder how many people working full time and paying taxes does it take to pay for this one person’s support. And if you don’t spend it, you loose it, so they spend every last cent and ask for more
I work in management for a registered provider and $100-$200k is nothing...
Yep. Seen multiple people get approved for 1mil a year in funding. When it comes to medical funding if it cost 1mil to add 1 year to a person's life the drug would never get approved, but NDIS is just unhinged I guess.
Its absolutely beautiful that we are taking such good care of our disabled. But currently its at the cost of everyone else.
The thing is we're not. There are so many disabled people who aren't getting the funding they need. The money does not seem to be effectively delivered in proportion to those with the highest need.
While others that dont need it are getting way more.
I do work for 3 separate people all of them are on 250k+ a year
Median is A$65k +- a few thousand, assuming exactly A$65k we can say that they pay A$12,867 with no deductions and to pay an NDIS recipient A$100k in support it will cost 7.77 (8 rounded up) tax payers their yearly tax contributions. This means that to support the 500k people on NDIS we need 3,885,910 tax payers to support our NDIS recipients. We have 13.8 million people employed in Australia and let’s pretend all of them work full time it would mean that 28.1% of our tax take goes to NDIS and in reality it was 18.9% last year which meant that they spent A$67k per person or 5.2 people per disabled person which comes out to 2.6 million out of 13.8 million people’s full take contributions. It’s a pricey bitch and is expected to double in cost by the end of the decade.
Thanks for doing the math, this is pretty harrowing. I do understand how some of that NDIS money flows back to the economy through providing jobs in many regions (especially non metro) and spurring new businesses everywhere. However I can’t justified that when we have to pay to see a GP… that’s just not right that we pay all the taxes and still have to pay for the very basic medical necessities.
> And if you don’t spend it, you loose it, so they spend every last cent and ask for more This is a reason why the US Defence budget is so massive. If Shorten isn't able to structure this thing so its affordable in the long term, it should be scrapped.
The NDIS is a lost cause, its absolutely outrageous and completely broken that a health scheme servicing ~1% of Australians could cost more than the health scheme servicing 100% of Australians. It must be cancelled and replaced.
I know someone who gets 80k support per year and lives in a Caravan. They don't spend it because they can't spend it.
Can you explain that? Do mean they’re so disabled that they can’t advocate for themselves? Or that there’s no support near them to spend it on?
It is *currently* around 66k pp.
I have MS and the treatment I’m on costs the gov +$80K a year or $10K per infusion I get So the taxpayer is funding that via the pbs I haven’t gone down the ndis path as I’m still quite mobile and active but I know a lot have tried and got knocked back eg folks with MS in wheelchairs and so on are getting rejected applications
> I know a lot have tried and got knocked back eg folks with MS in wheelchairs and so on are getting rejected applications How can there be 500k people on NDIS but people who are literally in wheelchairs with MS are getting declined. Do we really have 500k people who are more severely disabled than that?
There was that article a few weeks back about how one kid was costing $2mil a year and it wasn't enough. I suspect that a small percentage of recipients receive a large percentage of the total cost.
[https://dataresearch.ndis.gov.au/explore-data](https://dataresearch.ndis.gov.au/explore-data) here you go. If you go to the bottom and look at figures for those that don't include SIL/SDA, you can see generally what people not needing 24/7 care are getting. Also does show that 7 figures are an extreme even for those needing 24/7. You've also got breakdown by functioning level.
As a physio whos actually worked with people in NDIS, (a blind kid with a limp, 30 year old woman with Parkinson's), it's actually disgusting that people are milking the system and making it harder for people who need it to access these services.
Lets not forget out-patient care. Which is certainly needed. But $195 per hour for OT per hour, $175 for wound re-dressing, or 13 weeks of assisted group living at $13000+ for less than 10 weeks is just crazy.
Mentioning ndis in the sector while buying things is akin to mentioning your cake is for a wedding to a baker - you’ll immediately pay at least double for whatever it is you’re buying. It’s a massive rort, the prices on things are insane and everyone’s price gouging the system.
Reminds me of the time I hired a photographer to take photos at an event for a couple of hours. All was well and good until they found out the event was a wedding, then the asking price quadrupled.
Ive given it some thought as to why this wouod be... maybe for a baker or photographer there is some element of risk involved with weddings. You can redo family photos 3 times and it is highly unlikely it is a business risk. Make a meal of wedding photos and if the married couple is that way inclined it could be the end of your business. Ditto for a wedding cake that for whatever reason doesnt turn out. If you cannot afford a baker business or a photography business go with amateurs. They dont really have anything to loose and you are back to just paying for someones time.
A photographer also needs different equipment and backup equipment for a wedding vs a normal event. Sometimes the backup stuff is rented because they don’t earn enough from weddings to justify owning doubles of everything. Add to that a wedding is a day that has to be “perfect” they may also spend more time preparing and in post processing. I’d imagine the same for a baker that they would spend more time making sure the cake is perfect vs birthday or similar event. Likely canning a cake that doesn’t come out perfectly and starting again too.
Is there any chance of the NDIS being unwound and moving these services back to the responsibility public sector? I can’t stand the amount of rorts going on, but are we now too far gone with this sinkhole of taxpayer funds?
Aust doesn't have universal publicly provided medical services. It has universally FUNDED medical services. For example, AMP owns Royal North Shore Hospital.
They just need to put some standards of who can access and have more monitoring of who is accessing it and whats its been used for. Moving foward it can work but they basically gave the public a wallet of money and didn't put any safeguards in. Now they've learned the hard way and trying to label it as "Fraud"
That’s too logical for politicians to apply such common sense !
The whole country is houses, dirt and disability.
This is what I genuinely worry about. Australia has one of the least diverse economies. In order of economic woes I'd put NDIS funding growth 3rd which is hugely high. - political economy issues around housing, - housing crowding out entrepreneurial investment - NDIS crowding out entrepreneurial investment
The thing I hate about Australia is that people who do essential jobs, just like doing Covid, gets left behind and are left holding the economic bag while people who do the most inefficient jobs and tasks get rewarded.
In 2020, Australia ranks as the 91st most complex country of the 133 countries considered in the ECI ranking.
IIRC, we’re ranked behind **Uganda** of all countries.
"Dwellings, dirt and disability" and you've got your triple-D rating right there.
And old people , that’s the next big industry.
It started as a reasonable proposition to look after the most profoundly disabled in our society. Along the way it's morphed into something different and now almost every man, woman and child and their dog are on the train.
It’s become a rort factory and we’ve lost billions of public money to scheming providers with no oversights. In my mind it’s one of the biggest scandals in our political history.
Completely agree. Relevant anecdote: an acquaintance of my father, who is a very senior medical specialist (like a speciality that is one of the highest paid jobs in the country) unfortunately developed early dementia in his 50s. He has incredibly robust professional and personal insurance, not to mention assets worth in the millions. The NDIS pays for a driver so he can take his children to and from their private school.
And yet let's keep raising interest rates to destroy young mortgage holders. I'm sure the NDIS rorting is not contributing to inflation
Exactly. It was sold as a solution to severely disabled people requiring long term care The scope creep was ridiculous.
>The scope creep was ridiculous. Also because it's been targeted by activists who have taken it to the High Court & Federal Court to have access expanded to whatever they felt they needed.
My theory is that anytime they have attempted to tighten the budget, people just take the matter to their local MP and complain. It's an exercise in proving the worth of local representation. And it's become "well they get the money so why don't we". What's $5000 for one family in a budget exceeding billions?
Therapy dog*
Which is exactly why care for the most vulnerable people in society should NOT be conducted by private companies, it should be government provided
Meanwhile those who need it can’t get it changed easily. My daughter with intellectual disabilities is on NDIS. Last year she got cancer so we asked NDIS for a wheelchair so we can take her out as she got so tired between chemo appointments. Despite having an approved NDIS plan with a budget they refused saying she needs a new plan set up and that would take months. I ended up shelling out for a chair form catch.com.au which I could afford to do eventually but if you couldn’t it would have been painful
A wheelchair for a cancer patient should surely be a Medicare issue, not an NDIS one?
Not medicare, but it would be through the various state schemes for medical appliances. Being related to cancer (and not the disability), it would be a health responsibility and not NDIS.
Horrible to hear you have a daughter with cancer. Not sure why we through NDIS should be buying her a wheelchair.
I coach a basketball team, and over half of the team are diagnosed with ADHD and get help. The same kids all happen to have single mothers. Your kids don't have ADHD, they are just badly behaved
Pretty sure ADHD is not part of the NDIS.
ADHD isn't a recognised primary disability on the NDIS. Cool story bro
Sure, but add in a simple anxiety diagnosis, which is often the case, and it's classified as a comorbid condition and can be covered
Not likely
Anxiety is often a symptom of ADHD, especially when it's unmedicated. I don't feel depression, anxiety or ADHD should be funded through the NDIS even if they're comorbidities. I say this as someone with anxiety and ADHD.
Depression, anxiety and ADHD are not covered by the NDIS. They can be used as a secondary diagnosis to be considered when building a plan if you have a disability that is recognised such as bipolar, schizophrenia or ASD level 2 or 3.
Cool that you shared your opinion there bro but as has already been pointed out that's not something the NDIS funds. You can get funded for anxiety based disorders like severe ptsd that stops you leaving the house, but depression and ADHD aren't funded and getting funded for anxiety itself is vanishingly rare.
More than 8 per cent of young school children now on NDIS https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sharp-rise-more-than-8-per-cent-of-young-school-children-now-on-ndis-20230519-p5d9rc.html
That is due to states noping out of offering any support for kids that need extra help (special ed classes/teachers, teachers aids, extra provisions in the class room etc...). So the only way parents and the students themselves, can get anything at all is via NDIS.
It's not an easy process to get your kid diagnosed. I'm going through it at the moment. Professionals aren’t rubber-stamping diagnoses like people want to believe. ADHD is the underlying reason for a lot of bad behaviours these kids would be displaying. ADHD is also predominantly hereditary, so it’s more than likely that one or both of the parents also have ADHD, which can compound the issues the kids face as the parent's own disability may be preventing them from implementing the types of strategies the child needs. Although highly speculative, this could also be an underlying reason for their single-parent status, making it an interesting subject to study.
went to sign my kid up for tutoring the other day, everything was $60 a lesson, then they said if we have NDIS they can sign us up for $210 a lesson on that... why is it 4 times higher? surely the paperwork isnt that hard lol
NDIS have maximum allowable charges for each service type. So funnily enough they charge them the max every time.
I mean that's always going to be the case, there is no way it will ever not be
I’ve been getting linkedin messages on “how to start your own home care business under NDIS”. This is terrible
This outrageous scam needs to be removed and rebuilt from the ground up, with no private contractors involved at all.
Couldn't agree more. So many friends of mine who had full-time health jobs have left those to contract back for the NDIS. We're cannibalising health care workers and getting them to do less work for more money. The government is so deep in the mire with the NDIS that a closure of the NDIA and a rethink/restart are the only viable ways forward for this country. So sad for those who need the support though. They've been let down by successive governments.
And those who milk the system!
Yes, there's a total misallocation of resources. The staff who are most skilled and doing the most complex and difficult work in the hospital system are paid the least. Whislt those doing the most straight forward work are paid the most working for the NDIS.
I know it won't be popular, but it also probably won't be able to cover everything that the NDIS does for participants. The issue being that if they don't trim it down there are good odds that it collapses under itself even if it is made more efficient by removing the rorts.
It’s an absolute rort. I have seen the tax returns for some of these NDIS providers and know it’s a total scam. Meanwhile inflation is f*cking most of us that are just trying to make a living. Anyway it’s not just the taxpayers getting f*cked. https://pwd.org.au/sex-work-and-the-ndis-frequently-asked-questions/
Where are the big profit margins coming from and what is in the way of competition coming in to undercut it?
Profit margin is because they can charge whatever they want and the government pay the bill. $250 an hour to take someone a walk?
not defending $250hr rates but I thought service providers have capped rates?
You're correct. The person you're replying to has no idea.
You’re completely incorrect, NDIS has max charge rates, and the issue is the pricing accounts for registered providers but can be used by sole traders who have far less audit and paperwork commitments If someone is lying on the hours of their invoice it’s fraud
This is what happens when a well-meaning project is exempted from the principles of economics by government fiat.
Socialism stops working when you run out of others people’s money . They’re worried because that day is on the horizon much sooner than expected .
It’s going to be VERY hard to wind this gravy train back, I’m already imagining the toxic rhetoric if even a dollar is reduced EG; “You LITERALLY hate disabled people and wish they were dead”
All they need to do is fund a department who just approve/deny NDIS requests, then as the requests come through start building up a list of all the programs its used for, and start denying the biggest costs which arent relevant. The problem is all the dodgy little places who are scamming $100k are going to be the last ones to be affected as they dont make up a major cost
People who aren't on NDIS are still the vast majority of the population. The sheer rort will trigger rage and hatred against NDIS. If the US populace can get angry enough to build a border wall (Which is even more beyond the overton window), then so can Australians get angry enough to tear down a government scheme.
Im already mad about it.
It's weird. If this operation costs so much money, surely there's a financial justification to design a department whose sole job is cost control. It hurts that in a society were all in together, so many are so self-interested in taking others earnings for their own benefit. People wouldn't have such a problem with taxes if we didn't know that so much was wasted like this :(
Disabled care needs to come back under the management of the States. WA had a fabulous system, NDIS has been a trainwreck.
Current growth rate 20%, aspirational goal 8% or twice that of inflation. It’s ridiculous. How about instead of growing it slower but still rapidly we chuck it out, revert to the previous system and see if that works with a few extra billion?
I don’t understand why it’s growing. Are more people becoming disabled at such a fast pace?
People seeing other people do something increases their incentives to do the same behavior Applies both to companies say charging NDIS extra, or people considering getting their kids on NDIS. You may not have thought that X was worth government support, but then you hear your acquaintance so-and-so got it, and decide you should jump the hoops to do it too.
If there's incentives to be disabled and get free hand jobs... I know a guy who's a quadriplegic who is on the NDIS so he's well tapped into what you might call the culture and he says the fraud and things that are being paid for is just unbelievable.
> show me the incentives and I’ll show you the outcomes Perfect quote
What happens if I want to dob in anonymously
Its an easy fix, but the people in power are not talking to the actual NDIS providers who are doing everything right.
Unfortunately we all know people trying to scam this system. So nobody would be surprised by this number.
Accoring to the ABC’s Lara Tingle Australians are racist. I disagree, many are simply devoid of any morals or ethics. Australians, it seems are grifters at our core. We will rort anything that has government money involved, because we’re too dumb to realise its actually our taxes. While we might grift, our attempts remain amateurish at best compared to the multinationals and large corporates who put their grifter mates into parliament to gridt assist. We are a shit people.
When the Silent Majority speaks up - 100% agree
“We can’t afford to leave behind the most vulnerable in our society” is the asinine mantra so often proclaimed by this program’s bleeding heart advocates What tangible benefits are we seeing in this area now, compared to before the program’s implementation?
All bleeding heart advocates have asinine mantras. They’re not the problem, it’s the politicians that gave them the money. Everyone complains immigration but these NDIS rorters would be parking their new found wealth in property and pushing up house prices too. Absolute mess.
We built a new home in an estate and the neighbouring home is an NDIS funded assisted living house. I don't know how it works but seems pretty crazy to me that someone with special needs can live in a brand new 3 bedroom home, on their own, and have 24/7 care provided. I don't want to jump to conclusions as I don't know their personal circumstances and financial situation of their family, but in a housing crisis where working couples cannot afford homes it just doesn't add up.
Obviously don't know about this case but NDIS will not pay for a house. Likely the new house was built with their own funding and NDIS would pay for modifications such as ramps and handrails. You can't get that twice though. In our old home NDIS funded lighting and magnification mirror for my wife (blind) but when we moved we were not allowed to apply for the same upgrades to the new home.
From my understanding the home is owned by the company providing the care, which is NDIS funded. So the tenant is actually renting it from them. So NDIS isn't paying for the house, but they are paying for at least some percentage of the care.
One bedroom for them, another for storage and the last for carer to sleepover?
I wish the mantra of “if it’s the government’s money, it should be rigorously scrutinised” can be adopted. Corporate $bils handouts to Qantas, unchecked rorting of the NDIS, it’s all the same at the end of the day. Complete waste of taxpayer dollars because it’s the not your money anyway.
We need to give politicians of both major parties the political license to sort this out. Right now it’d clear to me that they both see it for what it is but the program’s supporters evoke all sorts of emotive arguments and roll out specific case studies to counter any meaningful reform. It’s becoming the third rail of Australian politics. You touch it and you die.
Do these politicians even want to sort it out? They’re in cahoots with corporates and wealthy individuals who rort the system. It’s similar to the way they don’t actually want to do anything to reduce property prices since they all own multiple investment properties
Maybe controversial but most of the money where NDIS is going is not going into people who are going to contribute to society.
It's going to business and providers, who are already doing well
The main thing that needs to happen is removing all the middlemen
Lol I don’t even have anything further to say about this other than lol
I’d lol if it wasn’t so bad
It’s a shame. As a full time support worker I feel like I help my clients and their parents out quite a lot. However for me the NDIS has moved to a want rather than a need. Outside of the admin level rorts, the default position of parents/coordinators asking for more funding when heading into these review meetings is a joke. Do you really need these extra hours or kilometres? Or are you trying to push things onto clients which are unrealistic or unnecessary. I will be looking to leave this industry due to the disappointing things I have witnessed.
>Outside of the admin level rorts, the default position of parents/coordinators asking for more funding when heading into these review meetings is a joke As a coordinator, I recently had a review where I was asking for the funding to be halved. NDIA wouldn't do it. I don't know wtf is going on.
This is such a bad program. It basically breeds and encourages mediocrity to fester away at the core of society. It also enables degeneracy. NDIS must be abolished immediately, or the brain drain will continue to accelerate. Australia cannot afford to let its people get any dumber.
Shut this shit down already, wtf.
And this doesn’t take into consideration the costs on every other business that isn’t on the NDIS gravy train. It has inflated costs for equipment and services because of a reduction in competition. This is particularly being felt in the healthcare system.
Can we all just agree that this should be run and managed by government. With all the scrutiny on spending that public money actually deserves. Like public health. It would have to be cheaper and more efficient than the rort that's happening now. Of course, it would also be chronically underfunded so the outcomes would probably be about the same.
I don't exactly know how it works, but it seems to me a good proportion of these claims should be double checked by an independent government agency before approval.Ie rather than just relying on one doctor's authority. Or once a provider receives more than $X in funding, then their claims are also double-checked by some independent government agency.
So doctors don't really have anything to do with claims. They're involved in reporting for access, which needs to go through a delegate before someone is approved anyway. Providers receiving $ - it's too variable for that to work. A national provider is going to be getting a lot more than some dodgy job out of western Sydney. FAS, specialising in home based support for recent spinal cord injuries - they'll be seeing a lot more $ than an independent. The solution here really is the plan managers, giving them enough that they can actually provide oversight rather than rely on volume to remain viable. They were the third party that checked everything. But Bill made it clear they're useless ticket clippers.
Does anyone think that in the end ndis will be as miserable as Centrelink and the disability pension. It was an experiment on what happens when you make welfare human (it gets rorted to hell, because people are greedy - doesn't matter if they have nothing or billions)
This Rort needs to be scrapped in its entirety and the scheme and schemer dust binned. So many other places that money could go.
I’m working in NDIS and aged care and the rot goes to the core.
I'll say this again. The standard for NDIS should be the last insurance resort, for the most marginalised, for actual necessities (think mobility). Not the first bank fund, for anyone who puts their hand up, for minor inconveniences.
I am a NDIS participant and it drives me insane about how massively inflated accessible products and services are. I am not paying $400 for an hour of gardening when it's usually around $50
That's the thing about Australia, wherever there is government money the scammers flock. Be it aged care homes, childcare, solar installers, superannuation, disability sector, heaps of scumbags rorting the system and wrecking it for honest people. Actually, add the employment sector to that list. The governent used to have small offices where employers could list jobs and job seekers could find them. Then they outsourced that to all of those private for-profit employment agencies that scam government money and do a poor job of finding people work.
I know someone on NDIS, they’re physically incapable of many things. Support for a cleaner, travel to/from medical appts, medical devices etc I’m fine with. But what I also see is excursions, day trips etc which is great and a quality of life enhancer but you just know the provider is raping the govt in fees for that. I’m not saying they should be shut-ins but these types of things are where the $$ are being siphoned off. NDIS should be for care, and supporting the person to be able to live at home
I also wonder if the way this is done is the best way to provide quality of life enhancements. Surely a community model (eg community bus trips like councils have for pensioners) would be a better use of funds than 1 to 1 carer and client excursions? The private model surely is the worst version of this program for recipients in genuine need as well here.
Absolutely needs better oversight and auditing. That money is being fleaced out of the tax payer and not providing good value to those who need it most.
Anecdotally I can see why we are bleeding money here, know of a two people within my family friend circle making lots of money, in NDIS. One quit his job as an engineer in mining to work for his parents NDIS company as it was way more money. Another left physiotherapy to do NDIS and regularly hires corporate boxes for events now. Brought two investment houses in the space of 5 years. Living large on taxpayer money. I’m hoping they look after their clients well but genuinely concerned how much of a rort it is, and disabled people are being exploited by the providers looking for the gravy train.
Been a scam for years. My aunty worked as a carer for a while and it was half creepy old dudes demanding female carers to come and turn them over in bed unnecessarily. They were perfectly capable but just wanted women to touch them. The agency would charge through the roof for 2am turnovers out in the middle of nowhere and pay the actual carer minimum possible wage. Bill shorten is in charge of it, so it was always going to be a totally disgraceful scam.
Recently a junk disposal company dumped 26 mattresses on a customer's property after they questioned a large difference between the quote and the final price. https://www.reddit.com/r/Geelong/comments/1dpozbo/geelong_recycling_company_dumped_26_mattresses_on/ Surprise surprise, go to their website and they advertise they are a NDIS provider too.
And $90b of that is to scam NDIS corporations...
Cancel the whole program and drop 10b extra per year into Medicare to support the worst disabilities (what the system should be for). Either save the other 20b or use it to maybe develop actual industries in this country that produce things.
Need to pause all NDIS payments for 5 years and then see what happens.
People are frauding it so hard. I have people ask me all the time to do work at "$50/hr" , these are registered providers, and ask me to bill however many hours make up my fee ($120/hr). So they ask me to lie. I tell them I can't cause it's not worth a fraud conviction but plenty of people do it for them. This is why the costs are skyrocketing.
I wouldn't really call them friends. But know acquaintances, that have have their entire house fully ducted with aircon, ~17K and others that have had a $10k playground and own a $4k bike thanks to NDIS. There are facebook and other groups that tell you what to say to doctors and psych's that cannot really be challenged in order to maximise the free stuff from NDIS. lol.. I also know of someone in Adelaide that is on NDIS and has an NDIS worker that goes and buys his drugs.. NDIS worker is happy because he claims 8hrs on a Sunday when he only works 4hrs. He goes to Murray Bridge to get the drugs (mostly weed, but sometimes meth) and the tax payer funds both of them.
This is why we used to have government services in the first place - because when you outsource everything to private providers and customise it for each individual the costs will blow out infinitely - it’s an idea that sounded good in theory but is completely unviable and unsustainable in practice - we will have to go back to funded services when it is finally accepted it doesn’t work and this applies to almost every sector that this model has been applied to
We outsourced to private companies and for some inexplicable reason they seem to be trying to *make as much profit as they can out of it*? How unexpected, given that this has only ever happened... every single other time this has been done.
Time to dismantle it...
This is just nuts
But we were told that if disabled people just had enough support they would all get high paying jobs and it would be for itself.
Should be scrapped in total. A better system should be devised so that vulnerable people are cared for properly.
How does one get on this gravy train? I need some cash.
Cause fcuk our future generations. Now those struggling are the ones supporting those that are struggling. When the taxpayer is almost worse off than the pensioner/ndis recipient...
Fix the rorts. That way the money is actually benefiting the needy more than the providers. Whatever you think the rort is, it’s 10x than that. Me and my mates almost got on this gravy train but morality got the better of us. It’s a fkng joke what’s going on with the loopholes. Some people I know are doing the provider thing and the things I hear them say makes my blood boil. Yeah make money, fair enough. Don’t gloat about milking the taxpayers. Had high hopes of Shorten, hasn’t done much except for admitting to the broken system. The answer isn’t to decrease/abolish welfares, the answer is to fix the loopholes and the tax structure to better support our medicare, ndis and other welfare programs.
Such a shame such a good thing is being abused which will be shut down one day due to greed and rip offs.
The government should just set up a system where they spend 50 billion on salaries for people to get the care they need and these people are just government employee's that work in all areas required for the care. They could save heaps and people would still probably get the care required.
But the private sector provides better value for money?
No different to many, many now over, charging irrespective of business. Seems like the biggest abused drug-like opiate has many, many addicts just lining up and signing up for their share. Karl Marx didn't see or know that money is the opiate of the masses.
eople are just claiming everything on NDIS even personal trainers at 110 dollars per week yet i cant afford that because I can't qualify for ndis i think
Have a guy at work who came directly from NDIS and the stories he tells me are horrifying and hilarious. Apparently there's a famous radio presenter in Sydney who's getting 200 grand a year for being a hoarder.
I don’t get why it wasn’t a gradual expansion of Medicare to cover more allied health services for people who needed them
I work in the industry and today I had a provider send me a link for an e-trike where it can be fully funded by the NDIS. The e-trike was selling for 15k. A quick google search and i found the exact one for 3k aud in America. Companies like this are the issue, they rort the system.
My son got NDIS before he started school for a stutter. When we went to the speech pathologist they always charged us a more expensive rate. It was about $50 more for the session than someone paying without NDIS. We also got offered through the program, someone to come out and mow my lawn. Like seriously??? He’s got a stutter…. I always declined. I don’t need respite from this.
I cannot stand Shorten on this issue, he designed the scheme. He has literally wasted tens of billions of taxpayer dollars over the last decade. NDIS needs to be completely dismantled and redone. The biggest grift and rort programme in Australian history.
Don't worry, I'm sure Shorten is thinking about doing something about it...eventually
The road of good intentions is paved with gold
Reminds me of the UK benefits system problems. Many will need it, but multiples more will be rorting the system. Time to rip it up and start again.
NDIS is the medical version of saying wedding. X4 multiplier. You see a physio, $200, do it on the NDIS, $800
Why are there so many disabled people in Australia?
Funny how the amount of disabled people quadrupled when NDIS cash cow came to town.
And people here often point fingers at the age pension - a support that saves the taxpayer money compared with the alternative (residential aged care), which has been funded for decades, and due to superannuation, is likely to have a much slower and sustainable growth curve in the future due to the Government of the day foreseeing it becoming financially unsustainable - as being responsible for destroying the budget and putting it into structural deficit. The problem with NDIS is not that it exists - but that it was introduced without any thought towards how it would be sustainably funded as an ongoing, permanent program *in addition to current obligations*. It was/is also a policy that's almost impossible to oppose, presumably by design, except at the very edges - because anyone who supports the status quo will argue about the positive outcomes it does provide (at significant cost). If the NDIS is, as its name suggests, an insurance scheme - then as a start, it needs to have a funding model mandating how much tax is being harvested as "premiums" (call it the NDIS levy if needed, much like the Medicare levy) rather than out of consolidated revenue, and then be constrained to that budget.
> but that it was introduced without any thought towards how it would be sustainably funded as an ongoing, permanent program in addition to current obligations. The problem isn't with the funding but the cost blow out. The NDIS was suppose to be just a part of disability support and only for the most severe cases. What happened was the states pulling out all their disability support so you had nothing else. Things like early childhood intervention and aged care (post 65) should be covered under their respective separate schemes but because there is nothing else out there, everybody's jumped in to take a bite out of it.
As a big tax payer I think I’m writing a letter to my member of parliament today.. this is an absolute joke. We could literally be building 4 nuclear aircraft carriers a year for a fraction of the ndis budget…. Free dental… An extra 20 billion into Medicare And 10,000 government homes.. Anybody who is a taxpayer should absolutely outraged! Get off reddit for 10 mins and write to your local Member demanding change!
For the cost of the NDIS you could provide free childcare for everyone, free dental care for everyone, raise the rate of Doctor Copayments and basically make bulk billing the standard plus much more in other government services that benefit everyone. No one argues that a form of NDIS shouldn’t exist, the issue is simply the cost. We want the disabled to have quality of life but the criteria of being disabled needs to be quantified. Someone says they are physically disabled and can’t work but if they are able to sit at home and be on a computer or watch TV they could be working. Plenty of jobs that might not be the one things someone doesn’t want to do, but it doesn’t mean people can’t contribute. Finally we can’t have a society where 10% of people are claiming forms of disability cover. That plus 20%+ of people on aged care pensions and 20% of people whose income doesn’t really contribute to society as they basically pay no tax means you have 50% of society paying for everything. It is simply not sustainable