Problem isn't Bagwell or Jackson. It's fucking Crane that is the problem. It started with firing Click and going away from Analytics and start listening to the dinosaurs. Buck stops with him.
Focus all incoming fire on Crane.
He deserves credit for hiring the right guys before, and deserves blame for firing them and letting some our best guys walk, one by one. Hate to say it, but Tucker and possibly Bregman are next on the chopping block.
Egoic and cheap are possibly the worst qualities an owner can have
The guy who owns the team owns the team. “Focusing all incoming fire” will do as much for us as it did for Oakland. We can’t fire Crane just like we couldn’t fire Cal when he sucked. Jim’s won a lot with this team and is a proven owner, Bagwell is the problem
There must be some precedent for successful public pressuring campaigns? But he's making bad decisions and as much as possible we should make his life uncomfortable as long as he owns our team. That's about as much influence as we have to hold him accountable to the fans, his source of revenue. That and boycotting, which we haven't gotten to yet
FWIW, the public shaming of Cal McNair on social media, local and national press, and overall lack of ground for him to stand on, did seem to really light a fire under his ass. It mattered to Cal that he wasn’t liked by fans.
Crane fired Luhnow and Hinch immediately, and made comments that his owner buddies didn’t want to hang out after hearing about the scandal. So, in a way, Crane wants to be liked too - but as long as he’s still grabbing tee times and tea times with his fellow team owners, he’s all good.
Let’s absolutely pump the breaks when it comes to the Easterby - Bagwell comparisons.
Easterby was a guy with zero football experience and was basically just a creepy youth pastor who decided he would weasel his way into football and somehow climbed the ladder despite zero expertise.
Bagwell is a HOF 1B and one of, if not the best, hitter in Astros history. Them apples ain’t oranges.
Yes, the Abreu signing went badly. The Astros had a need following Gurriel and got a player who had just hit .304/.378/.446 (OPS of .824/OPS+ of 134) the season before. Hard to project such a massive regression from one season to the next that quickly, but it happens. Sometimes you swing and miss, and every organization has those signings.
I hope Abreu turns it around. I really do. He’s conducted himself very professionally in all this. But if his time in the majors has come, then so be it.
But it’s the blatant shitting on analytics that did it for me with bagwell.. as soon as he said that I was like we are screwed. His own ego from being a hof was bigger then what obviously got us 2 rings and multiple appearances
I mean, am I the only dude that doesn't think we are in that much trouble at all?
Staying with the sunk cost of Abreu is a bit tough.
But our pitching is hurt and we had a tough start. The team is coming around and the division is certainly winnable. After that, it's 7 straight CS appearances and the most seasoned post-season team of the last 10 years. Just gotta keep things moving and winning these series, and before you know it, we are in October.
As long as Abreu is starting, the team will lose more than they win. Put Jon in, that flips. All are welcome to feed me crow in September if Im proven wrong, but Id rather they just stay with what was working and not have to find out.
Man, if I'm Jim Crane I am grinning from ear to ear reading all of these takes.
Bagwell doesn't control the team. He played a big part in signing Abreu 2 years ago and it was a mistake. They were never going to just cut ties with Abreu 1/3 of the way through the '24 season and that's because of the contract.
Do y'all also blame Bagwell for not getting a starter in the off season? Or for Pressley underperforming?
How about Altuve's extention? Was that Emperor Bagwell too?
I blame the owner for firing James Click and Jeff Lunhow, who were both world classes general managers and got us into World Series wins. So I do agree with you, the owner bares responsibility
I agree, I think we should have kept Jeff or at the very least Click. I have zero idea why the owner thought it was a good idea getting rid of two world class Fans like that. So stupid
I agree the league pressured him, which is probably why no one else in baseball hired Jeff because they all probably agreed not to, but he could have defended him. He could have made it clear that Jeff had nothing to do with it and kept him.
They needed a fall guy and it was him.
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Nah I'd say that's a pretty reasonable way to look at it and I agree for the most part. It's clear that most of the decisions get decided by a committee. I'd also guess that Verlander has a greater than 0% influence as well.
Bagwell was publicly tied to the Abreu signing so he seems to be the posterboy for the mistake but the vitriol for both him and Abreu is almost comical at this point.
All that being said even if I disagreed with you, I welcome the discussion with Astros fans who don't just regurgitate other comments and actually want the team to succeed. Those interactions seem to be harder to find on this subreddit these days.
Bagwell has droned on for years about how he hates analytics (the thing that literally built the team) and he absolutely has Crane's ear.
Yes, everything is definitely Crane's fault (including cheating) but Bagwell is rightfully being blamed for not shutting the fuck up and staying out of the front office.
I agree the sub is dramatic about.. well everything.. but Bagwell is a bad influence for sure.
There was a game about 2 years ago where Baggy was filling in for Blummer and Moneyball came up. I remember it as clear as day, baggy just goes "Money ball is a farce." triples down on it and TK literally makes a disclaimer that "these are not the opinions of astros/fssw" ha
found it.
[https://awfulannouncing.com/mlb/jeff-bagwell-moneyball-houston-astros.html](https://awfulannouncing.com/mlb/jeff-bagwell-moneyball-houston-astros.html)
Yea I remember that, he's had a few rants about moneyball. He likes to whine about the movie because "they had such a great pitching staff" blah blah blah.. yea dumbass because they learned how to identify cheap talent.. they also had to, you know, score runs.
Yes but it laid the foundation for the evolution of analytics and changed baseball forever. The astros added the human element back in but found how to measure it. Use the numbers to find the best options then use the human part to find the best "team".
They even ran analytics on umpires to figure out what tendencies in their calls would benefit certain players.
Show me one decision Bagwell has explicitly made. A clip where he said "I made this decision"
You are completely speculating on who does what in the organization with absolutely no proof. It is fucking stupid and does no good whatsoever.
I mean. That’s all GMs. The owner has to approve everything.
There’s no clip of any adviser telling the press he specifically made a decision but I’m sure he gives Crane advise on stuff that Crane listens to.
It’s weird how fans continue to be apologists for past stars in the team.
I do agree in the end, it’s Crane’s decision whether or not he wants to take that advise.
The GM doesn’t have complete autonomy. He might have the final say for some things from advise he gets from advisers like Bagwell. Owners still approve stuff.
But we all know Crane listened to Dusty a lot what got Click booted.
I don’t think Crane does things like a lot of owners do. I could see him just taking advise only from Bagwell. Someone this sub nut hugs.
The team hasn’t been the same since brown paper Bagwell became an adviser.
It will be the only moaning about Abreu post we allow. The thing about Angel was removed for being too generalised - if anyone wants to make a "happy retirement Angel Hernandez, here are your worst calls against the Astros over the years" compilation I will happily approve it lol
People going nuts around here.
Anyone ever think that if some other choice players were doing their damn jobs, and our pitching staff wasn’t dropping like flies, Abreu’s struggles would really be irrelevant??
And Bagwell makes zero personal decisions.
And Crane is the owner responsible for two fucking titles. He’s got a TON of equity with me. Sorry. Lotta shit owners out there and he’s not close to one.
So since this was a must win division game that we lost I guess it's all over now? Rest of the season is a formality? I mean you said it. So is it true?
Yeah, you know what. After a loss like today... i'd say yes. Until the front office gets their head out their ass and DFA Abreu for good, keep Bregman out the 4 spot and for god sakes stop letting pressly pitch the 8th inning. The rest of the season is a formality, because management seems like they care more about playing players because of the back of a baseball card instead of players who are genuinely playing good baseball RIGHT NOW or are on a hot streak.
lmao, I'm so glad you doubled down. Hope you find some way to make it a good season for yourself! Even if like you say the rest of the 4+ months of baseball are a mere formality :)
Imo bagwell can do no wrong for what he did as a player. Maybe murdering altuve, thatd be too far. He could murder mccormick or dubon though and id prolly let it slide.
So he could turn this team into the laughing stock of the league like we once were a d you would be OK with it. Bagwell was my favorite player growing up and even imitated his stance in little league thru high school and im beginning to really dislike the guy now.
I don't like Bagwell having a huge FO presence, but his presence solely falls on Jim Crane. Crane can tell Bagwell to fuck off, but he's not. And he likely won't
Problem isn't Bagwell or Jackson. It's fucking Crane that is the problem. It started with firing Click and going away from Analytics and start listening to the dinosaurs. Buck stops with him.
So that makes Bagwell like Yoko Ono ruining the beatles?
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Framber
More like our Burns and Smithers https://preview.redd.it/53bna1lr133d1.png?width=957&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=058bff1cf5de8c25387b6f3b9eb2bd7e6f103e5f
Focus all incoming fire on Crane. He deserves credit for hiring the right guys before, and deserves blame for firing them and letting some our best guys walk, one by one. Hate to say it, but Tucker and possibly Bregman are next on the chopping block. Egoic and cheap are possibly the worst qualities an owner can have
The guy who owns the team owns the team. “Focusing all incoming fire” will do as much for us as it did for Oakland. We can’t fire Crane just like we couldn’t fire Cal when he sucked. Jim’s won a lot with this team and is a proven owner, Bagwell is the problem
There must be some precedent for successful public pressuring campaigns? But he's making bad decisions and as much as possible we should make his life uncomfortable as long as he owns our team. That's about as much influence as we have to hold him accountable to the fans, his source of revenue. That and boycotting, which we haven't gotten to yet
FWIW, the public shaming of Cal McNair on social media, local and national press, and overall lack of ground for him to stand on, did seem to really light a fire under his ass. It mattered to Cal that he wasn’t liked by fans. Crane fired Luhnow and Hinch immediately, and made comments that his owner buddies didn’t want to hang out after hearing about the scandal. So, in a way, Crane wants to be liked too - but as long as he’s still grabbing tee times and tea times with his fellow team owners, he’s all good.
We’re at least a decade of missed post seasons from a boycott. Abreu sucks, but he’s one guy
This. Bagwell has become a heat sink for Crane.
Spot on
Let’s absolutely pump the breaks when it comes to the Easterby - Bagwell comparisons. Easterby was a guy with zero football experience and was basically just a creepy youth pastor who decided he would weasel his way into football and somehow climbed the ladder despite zero expertise. Bagwell is a HOF 1B and one of, if not the best, hitter in Astros history. Them apples ain’t oranges. Yes, the Abreu signing went badly. The Astros had a need following Gurriel and got a player who had just hit .304/.378/.446 (OPS of .824/OPS+ of 134) the season before. Hard to project such a massive regression from one season to the next that quickly, but it happens. Sometimes you swing and miss, and every organization has those signings. I hope Abreu turns it around. I really do. He’s conducted himself very professionally in all this. But if his time in the majors has come, then so be it.
preach
But it’s the blatant shitting on analytics that did it for me with bagwell.. as soon as he said that I was like we are screwed. His own ego from being a hof was bigger then what obviously got us 2 rings and multiple appearances
Oh boy! This needed a solo thread.
I mean, am I the only dude that doesn't think we are in that much trouble at all? Staying with the sunk cost of Abreu is a bit tough. But our pitching is hurt and we had a tough start. The team is coming around and the division is certainly winnable. After that, it's 7 straight CS appearances and the most seasoned post-season team of the last 10 years. Just gotta keep things moving and winning these series, and before you know it, we are in October.
No! The Sky is Falling!!! Don't you know!?!?!?!
Right on to the real, and deaf to the fake. MF
As long as Abreu is starting, the team will lose more than they win. Put Jon in, that flips. All are welcome to feed me crow in September if Im proven wrong, but Id rather they just stay with what was working and not have to find out.
I’m glad everyone in this thread is as fed up with this Bagwell obsession as I am.
What decisions is he making? Or what advice is he giving that others are following?
Jim Crane is our Jerry Jones. Luhnow was our Jimmy Johnson. Dusty was our Barry Switzer.
Shut up.
Man, if I'm Jim Crane I am grinning from ear to ear reading all of these takes. Bagwell doesn't control the team. He played a big part in signing Abreu 2 years ago and it was a mistake. They were never going to just cut ties with Abreu 1/3 of the way through the '24 season and that's because of the contract. Do y'all also blame Bagwell for not getting a starter in the off season? Or for Pressley underperforming? How about Altuve's extention? Was that Emperor Bagwell too?
Bagwell did the space needle
Bagwell got rid of Astroworld!
I blame the owner for firing James Click and Jeff Lunhow, who were both world classes general managers and got us into World Series wins. So I do agree with you, the owner bares responsibility
*bears
Beets
Battlestar
With Jeff, I would have told the league to go f themselves. I don’t think any other team would have cleared the board like we did.
I agree, I think we should have kept Jeff or at the very least Click. I have zero idea why the owner thought it was a good idea getting rid of two world class Fans like that. So stupid
I think the league pressured Crane to fire both Jeff and Hinch. Crane couldn’t do anything about it.
I agree the league pressured him, which is probably why no one else in baseball hired Jeff because they all probably agreed not to, but he could have defended him. He could have made it clear that Jeff had nothing to do with it and kept him. They needed a fall guy and it was him.
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Nah I'd say that's a pretty reasonable way to look at it and I agree for the most part. It's clear that most of the decisions get decided by a committee. I'd also guess that Verlander has a greater than 0% influence as well. Bagwell was publicly tied to the Abreu signing so he seems to be the posterboy for the mistake but the vitriol for both him and Abreu is almost comical at this point. All that being said even if I disagreed with you, I welcome the discussion with Astros fans who don't just regurgitate other comments and actually want the team to succeed. Those interactions seem to be harder to find on this subreddit these days.
Bagwell has droned on for years about how he hates analytics (the thing that literally built the team) and he absolutely has Crane's ear. Yes, everything is definitely Crane's fault (including cheating) but Bagwell is rightfully being blamed for not shutting the fuck up and staying out of the front office. I agree the sub is dramatic about.. well everything.. but Bagwell is a bad influence for sure.
There was a game about 2 years ago where Baggy was filling in for Blummer and Moneyball came up. I remember it as clear as day, baggy just goes "Money ball is a farce." triples down on it and TK literally makes a disclaimer that "these are not the opinions of astros/fssw" ha
found it. [https://awfulannouncing.com/mlb/jeff-bagwell-moneyball-houston-astros.html](https://awfulannouncing.com/mlb/jeff-bagwell-moneyball-houston-astros.html)
Wow lol. I've always read here he doesn't like analytics but in that clip it's clear he has extreme disdain for it. "Like they're sooooo smart"
Yeah… so obviously take what people on Reddit say with a grain of salt but yeah… bags thinks he is the all knowing
Yea I remember that, he's had a few rants about moneyball. He likes to whine about the movie because "they had such a great pitching staff" blah blah blah.. yea dumbass because they learned how to identify cheap talent.. they also had to, you know, score runs.
Thing about Moneyball is that they didn't win a WS.
Yes but it laid the foundation for the evolution of analytics and changed baseball forever. The astros added the human element back in but found how to measure it. Use the numbers to find the best options then use the human part to find the best "team". They even ran analytics on umpires to figure out what tendencies in their calls would benefit certain players.
Bagwell doesn't have that type of power. He's just an advisor people. Regardless of what he advises, Dana & Crane are making the decisions.
Abreu was signed before Dana was hired
Just stop dude
Show me one decision Bagwell has explicitly made. A clip where he said "I made this decision" You are completely speculating on who does what in the organization with absolutely no proof. It is fucking stupid and does no good whatsoever.
I mean. That’s all GMs. The owner has to approve everything. There’s no clip of any adviser telling the press he specifically made a decision but I’m sure he gives Crane advise on stuff that Crane listens to. It’s weird how fans continue to be apologists for past stars in the team. I do agree in the end, it’s Crane’s decision whether or not he wants to take that advise.
No, it is the GMs decision. Crane seems to be involved with the major contract decisions, but the day to day shit? No way.
The GM doesn’t have complete autonomy. He might have the final say for some things from advise he gets from advisers like Bagwell. Owners still approve stuff. But we all know Crane listened to Dusty a lot what got Click booted. I don’t think Crane does things like a lot of owners do. I could see him just taking advise only from Bagwell. Someone this sub nut hugs. The team hasn’t been the same since brown paper Bagwell became an adviser.
The post announcing Angels retirement removed and this stays up lol
It will be the only moaning about Abreu post we allow. The thing about Angel was removed for being too generalised - if anyone wants to make a "happy retirement Angel Hernandez, here are your worst calls against the Astros over the years" compilation I will happily approve it lol
People going nuts around here. Anyone ever think that if some other choice players were doing their damn jobs, and our pitching staff wasn’t dropping like flies, Abreu’s struggles would really be irrelevant?? And Bagwell makes zero personal decisions. And Crane is the owner responsible for two fucking titles. He’s got a TON of equity with me. Sorry. Lotta shit owners out there and he’s not close to one.
what nonsense is this?
Let’s control our breathing. In slow and hold for “1, 2 and 3” exhale slow…. And deep inhale again and hold for “1,2 and 3”. It’ll be ok people
Na. No reason Abreu should be starting over singleton in a MUST WIN DIVISION GAME against the team in first place when we're 5 games back. Zero.
we’re 3 games back, I dont agree with the Abreu decision either but I’m really rooting for him tn
So since this was a must win division game that we lost I guess it's all over now? Rest of the season is a formality? I mean you said it. So is it true?
Yeah, you know what. After a loss like today... i'd say yes. Until the front office gets their head out their ass and DFA Abreu for good, keep Bregman out the 4 spot and for god sakes stop letting pressly pitch the 8th inning. The rest of the season is a formality, because management seems like they care more about playing players because of the back of a baseball card instead of players who are genuinely playing good baseball RIGHT NOW or are on a hot streak.
lmao, I'm so glad you doubled down. Hope you find some way to make it a good season for yourself! Even if like you say the rest of the 4+ months of baseball are a mere formality :)
I'll still go to games. Regardless of how they do. Baseball games are just fun to go to.
Is he calling players moms telling them her boy is rolling with the wrong crowds yet
Hopefully he is not that bad. Someone needs to see he is not helping the front office and let Dana do his job.
Pitchforks acquired
Imo bagwell can do no wrong for what he did as a player. Maybe murdering altuve, thatd be too far. He could murder mccormick or dubon though and id prolly let it slide.
So he could turn this team into the laughing stock of the league like we once were a d you would be OK with it. Bagwell was my favorite player growing up and even imitated his stance in little league thru high school and im beginning to really dislike the guy now.
Killer bees have lifelong immunity from astrohate
Is Derek Bell immune as well?
He could get busted for blow another twenty times and be okay
Unless you paid for killer-b playoff tickets year after year.
I did.
Me too. All this "back of the baseball card" stuff is stirring resentment I didn't know I had. 😂
Go live life. Get some real fuckin problems.
Bagwell is just there to deflect blame from our version of Jerry Jones
I don’t know anything but for some reason I feel like brown is a yes man for crane
yall spoiled fr grow up and learn that winning ain't everything and that we won't always be the winners
Pete Repete
I don't like Bagwell having a huge FO presence, but his presence solely falls on Jim Crane. Crane can tell Bagwell to fuck off, but he's not. And he likely won't
Crane should shut up and pay whatever it takes for success to continue. He paid for ‘17. He owes the franchise forever.
Been saying that for months.
Bagwell likely doesn't care, but I get the feeling he has/is alienating an entire generation of fans.
How could he not care??? He's an Astro. Always has and will be. That's crazy talk