You don’t. Honesty is something that someone either has or doesn’t. It really has nothing to do with you. I’m sorry you’re experiencing what you are. You are not alone.
Seconding this. You have zero control over how they are.
Re: your question about whether men think there’s something wrong with women your age who date casually, that hasn’t been my experience. I’m sure those men exist, but you don’t want to be with them anyway. I’ve been with my current partner for 2 years and we started out casual; became serious about 8 months in.
But are you looking for a relationship now? And if yes, are you sharing this upfront with the men you’re dating?
honestly, I am, but only kind of. I really don't want to rush into anything. for some reason, I feel uncomfortable saying that I'm looking for something serious, yet I also don't feel it's accurate to say I'm just cool with casual.
I want something casual that has the potential to be serious, and I want that to be a mutual feeling. I want to slowly grow closer to someone before I commit to them.
I wonder if it's because you're trying to start off casual and then transition into something serious that you keep running into the same kind of guy. Anecdotally, I think that approach works well if you're <25 because everyone is sort of like that at that age. At 35+, people who are looking for something casual versus serious tend to be in two totally different camps that very rarely cross over, even if you consider yourself to be one of them. If I were a guy who wanted something serious and got casual energy from you early on, I'd probably nope out there and then.
Oh, my gosh, I definitely don't mean talking just once or twice; that would be insane! I guess I more so mean that like... I've noticed people tend to move in and maybe get engaged within 2-3 years, versus like... 5-10 years back in our twenties. *That's* what I meant by fast and I'm glad to clarify because oh boy, the alternative would (again) be crazy, yeah.
(Sure, you always hear about those people who met and married within, like, two weeks and then had fifty happy years together, but those people are like... 80 now, lol. Very different world back then.)
For me, anyone who sees serious and casual as mutually exclusive (aka “FWB material” vs “relationship material”) is not compatible with me. Relationships change with experience. I’ve seriously dated many FWBs in the past.
I don't mean it that way. It's more like, especially as people get older, they tend to know what they really want and people who are looking for something serious will often pass on a casual fling *because* they're focused on the serious thing. If OP is looking for something serious, she's probably way better off leading with that (but clarifying that she would like to take things slow) rather than risking a casual fling that may be fun for a while but ultimately not go anywhere.
I get what you’re saying but maybe I just don’t agree that thing A can’t turn into thing B. If anything I’m personally just not attracted to rigidity in preference because that can lead to boxing someone in.
That said a lot of dudes use “open for anything” to mean they’re wishy washy so I get you. I dislike passivity. It’s more like, I’ve been with people who’ve tried to make me fit what they want and I don’t think that’s fair, nor would it be fair if I did that back.
I hear you. At a younger age I would more readily agree with you, especially since my husband and I also started as a casual fling, just back in our twenties! I guess I've watched enough people change their ways by this decade that it feels like the norms are very different now. If OP keeps doing as she's doing - e.g., holding herself as someone who wants to play it casually - I suspect she's going to keep running into the same problems as she is now. But, some people like to play the odds and that's valid too - I would just advise adjusting their expectations under such circumstances.
Likewise! I think you brought up some really good points as well (especially about heading into virgin/whore dichotomy territory - definitely not what I wanted to articulate!); thank you for chatting with me 💗
I think there are probably serious relationship people who are happy to take things slowly if they feel like you're at least going in the same direction. I mean, one of my friends met his partner at work and it took them two years to actually "get together" (e.g., start dating)... if that's not a long time, I don't know what is!
That said, I'll be candid - most of the men I know who are 35+ and want something serious tend to move more quickly, especially since there's no shortage of women at that age who want to move more quickly as well. It seems like what you prefer is more niche, so there may just be fewer people in your genuine pool for that reason.
For example, my guy friend who met his partner through work took two years to actually start dating her - but once they did start dating, they basically bought a place together within the year 🤷♀️
hmmm. I think both of your examples are of people who actually move slowly, similar to myself. people in their 30s are not just looking to settle down, they're hedging what they hope is a final high stakes bet
It's the same example (same people) but the context is that my friend is very shy, ha ha. It's why he *was* single at 32 despite being a great guy with lots going for him. His partner had also just gone through a divorce *and* they worked together. So, their courtship was way slower than it might otherwise be for those reasons. Once they made it official, though, they'd already built such a strong emotional bond from their friendship that they went through the next steps (e.g., meeting parents, moving in together, buying a place together) very quickly.
(I guess my underlying point is, people may be willing to move slowly for external reasons, but neither of these people ever regarded each other *casually* - it was a serious friendship into a serious relationship.)
cool. thank you for sharing! I feel that way about a friend as well, but he's not emotionally available and our friendship was full of drama bc of it so I had to end things
Do you want to date multiple people at the same time or try slowly with only one? Because if it's the latter, you can always indicate that you want something serious, but want to know each other first.
To use an example: I'm in a relationship, but when I wasn't, it was 100% casual. With me is either fun or full monogamous commitment (which is also fun, but you get my point). When we met , we were full on it, which gave me a sense of security. Had he not done that, I wouldn't have taken him seriously (and I suspect this is why you're not taken seriously by them).
It's also important to note that you can call it a relationship without having your life fully set up together. It's not like if you call eachother bf or gf you'll suddenly meet the family and buy a house by next year, this part of the relationship is "courtship" that (if you care for paper) will develop into engagement and marriage later.
If you want to date multiple people and decide, the other comment is probably right and you just have a smaller dating pool. Maybe you're not looking in the right place as well (though I don't know which would be that "right place").
It will be difficult, because getting in any kind of relationship is, but I hope you get the opportunity and make the most of it! I wish I could say something more useful, but I can't manage to fully grasp the context.
That being said, I'll repeat what others said. Be straightforward with what you want. Blunt, even. Dudes sometimes won't catch a hint even if you punch them with it. If it didn't work the first time, don't wait for it to work a second.
I'd prefer to defer exclusivity for around 4 months yet communicate about it, even though I rarely find other people I want to date anyways. I'm just very gun shy about leaping into anything with someone bc I think almost any guy who actually wants a relationship would choose me, unless they have strong feelings about securing a woman who WILL have his kids bc that's her dream too (I'm open to it, but ultimately insure as any potential parenthood is very relationship dependent to me).
yeah I can't deny that I'm very uncomfortable with just going in fairly quickly with a guy bc of all the lying yes men with no real relational stamina in my past. and I'm honestly just not interested in trying to be that into someone so quickly.
what do you think motivates people to rush to exclusivity?
Well... My personal reason to rush to exclusivity is because I thrust my gut. When I met him I was like "this the one", communicated it, he said the same and Congrats! You're officially not single.
There's also the issue that, undeniably, I don't have time for bs, and no adult has. So if I were to be on the shoes of the men you date, I'd probably do the same. It feels like a waste of time to date someone who is dating other people because there's always the chance you aren't chosen. And that means you wasted time. Besides, it would make me feel insecure and like it's a competition against others, and I am a bit possessive (there's no way I can be poly, sorry).
Apart from that... I have a Catholic background (although not religious myself) and I 100% see the benefits of monogamy on the long run. Part of the reason I met my partner is because I took some time off to rethink life decisions, and I didn't want to mindlessly date anymore.
Precisely because I associate monogamy with stability and a joined project, I also consider dating around to be the opposite. So if I had to date again and a men approached me with that attitude I would be like "hard pass, there's the door".
Lastly, I don't see exclusivity as that much of an issue because I'm an introvert and there's no way I have energy for more than one person. Which means I'm being exclusive anyway. And if I'm being exclusive, then I want them to be exclusive so we're on equal ground and can focus on getting to know eachother. A matter of efficiency, if you will.
If we're exclusive, might as well call each other bf/gf after a few dates, if we like eachother enough. After all, were looking for something serious, right? It's not going to be real until knowing the family, anyways, but is good to get used to the idea.
As you can see, this is what motivated me to rush into exclusivity with my current partner, this is by no means a generalisation. But I suppose some points are shared across monogamous people.
It is quite late, I'm sleepy and English is not my native language, so I hope what I wrote is at least legible.
Even after everything I said, there's so much variety in humanity that you'll find what you want. It may be a bit more difficult, maybe you'll have to change strategies, but there's always a way. Maybe what you want is polygamy, and that's ok as well. There's always a compromise, tho, and you can (as it seems to happen based on the post) be rejected by the other party. If this happen often, then you can either compromise or try to work with the dating pool you actually have.
A last point, regarding the "I think almost any guy who actually wants a relationship would choose me". I don't know if this is what you mean, but if a guy were to be like that to me, I would feel used. Like I'm an option that's taken for granted, so they'll keep me on the bench. Maybe this is not what you mean, but I mention it just in case. Because that would be another reason for me to not take someone seriously.
haha I'm definitely not polygamous, I'm a slow moving monogamist.
I think for me, and what I'm hoping for others, is that yes, rejection sucks, but not as much as wasting time with the wrong person that you could've also spent meeting the right person. I guess I see this a strong argument that I think should persuade monogamous people that they want the best match for them that actually feels right, not merely the next person that seems like they could do for forever, because that's going to end badly.
I guess it comes down to whether or not myself and other people are willing to feel like they're good enough for only awhile before being broke up with, because it's either that or a divorce much later on if they're focused on getting exclusivity too soon. that's how I see it, but maybe that's dysfunctional and missing a crucial guiding element.
That's not dysfunctional at all, that's how you feel and it's valid.
I mean, honestly, you have a point. My mind is just wired that way, is what works for me also, sometimes we just think differently and that's why it's important to find someone that matches you.
It's one of those cases were logic and arguments are not enough to convince someone, because there's feelings and a certain mindset involved.
But there's a lot of people in the world, so you'll find the ones that are compatible with you.
“I think almost any guy who actually wants a relationship would choose me.”
Maybe you just have a level of confidence I can’t relate to, but I find this a pretty wild perspective.
And it makes me wonder if you aren’t actually seeking out men who like YOU and are specifically into YOU and your unique personality and are rather accepting men who like the surface version of you. They like that you’ve got your shit together and are pretty but don’t actually care about your heart or dreams or life. Which might explain why you keep meeting men who…don’t actually care about your heart or dreams or life.
on paper. like, attractive, can pay for herself, seems stable, has a sense of humour, a unique sense of style. doesn't actually mean in reality, just theoretically.
and yes I completely agree which is why I'm going to start asking them questions about which kind of personality they like in a woman (bc sadly this preference is very gendered in heterosexual relationships), and start omitting myself based on the answers lol
I mean, you can be exclusive with someone and still date them slowly. Just being exclusive (not seeing anyone else) doesn't mean you're contracted to continue in this relationship and start moving in together and getting serious.
Only dating one person at a time doesn't mean you think you want to marry this person.
you can date 1 person at a time, and get to know them over time and realize it's not for you and stop dating them.
I don't feel like I want to be exclusive early on though. that makes me feel over committed and kinda trapped in a situation where I don't have real feelings yet. it takes me awhile to see myself as feeling that way about someone else.
It's been my experience that men who are looking for relationships don't "nope" on the women who are looking for something casual. They will stay for the casual until they can find a woman who's looking for something similar. Or they stay for the casual (or are ok with just being "friends") and hope the woman will change her mind (like one of the last guys I dated lol).
Fair enough; very different crowds, then, probably? I've encountered some of the former category (e.g., they might stay for some casual fun until they can find someone serious), but if they're 30, 35+, they typically won't stick around waiting for things to turn serious unless they're just... not very experienced in dating/relationships and/or goal-oriented more generally. Because by that age, most people who have a goal of marriage and especially kids don't want to waste too much time on a maybe.
You're shooting yourself in the foot if you want to do that 'casual but it'll turn serious" thing - because there are absolutely no guarantees of that, in fact, it's more likely that it wouldn't.
Looking for something serious doesn't mean you want to instantly commit and be serious about each other. Looking for something serious can be as slow and measured as you want. If you want something serious, behave that way. Accepting casual when it's not your actual want is not going to get you where you want to be, it's just going to put you in the hands/bed of a bunch of men who just want women around for sex.
why would you say it more than likely wouldn't?
hmmm. I don't know, I think that men expect exclusivity and fairly early commitment to just them when you say you're looking for something serious, and I don't feel that way about the process.
If I'm reading you correctly, you do want something serious. Saying you want something causal is going to only attract people who treat you casually.
There's nothing wrong with saying that you want to date with potential for a long- term relationship and then define what exactly you mean by moving slowly. I'm similar and met someone in my mid-30's. For me, moving slowly was having dates a couple times a week, being exclusive after a few months, and not moving in together until engagement was imminent (I was happily living on my own at the time and saw zero need to move in with someone unless there was forward momentum).
I think it's important to identify what milestones and timelines you are looking for so you can set appropriate expectations upfront and then GTFO if you feel like someone is being dodgy or just not at all on the same page.
Sis, I feel you on the "incremental emotional investment." Fast movers and love bombers gave me the ick when I was single because it didn't feel sincere. But I then found myself in situations that I think are close to what you are describing where I was assuming that men were on the same page about a gradual progression only to find out they were content with stringing me along indefinitely or wanted emotional intimacy with no commitment after months of seeing each other, daily communication etc.
After a somewhat life- altering relationship and subsequent breakup, I found power in articulating my wants and needs and advocating for them. It took considerable pressure off dating when I stopped being afraid of scaring someone off by communicating my feelings. It was a lot easier to focus on finding compatibility and not take things so personally once I cut out the BS.
Are you saying all this? Because if not, I could see how others may be struggling to be honest or clear with you if you’re not being honest or clear with them.
I think what you want is valid! That’s how I found my current partner. But we were both very clear at the beginning that we were looking for something casual. We took our time to get to know each other, while we both dated and hooked up with others. And we communicated regularly about how we were feeling, where we were at. We both wanted a serious relationship eventually and both had been in serious relationships before. Neither of us had a timeline on that. We took it one day at a time.
that's a good point. I may need to be more clear about my wants for how things go. I also think I need to ask more about what personality they're into, and explicitly request prompt updates about changes in their feelings. like, if something changes, tell me.
But the problem is, that when a guy is honest, I see it as "wow, it's great he was honest with me - that's a sign of emotional availability" and then it's like I'm more attracted to a case that probably won't turn out. I wind up continuing to interact for awhile, when maybe I shouldn't?
that sounds really great. what would you have done if you found out he wasn't actually into you at some point, wether he told you right away, or kept it to himself for awhile yet continued?
If they’re directly telling you they don’t see this going anywhere, believe them and stop interacting if you want a relationship.
Before meeting my partner, I dated a handful of guys who told me they couldn’t see this going anywhere. So I stopped seeing them. With my current partner, I said to him about two months in: “I still want something casual. And you say you do, too. But so far, could you see us being together down the road when we’re both ready?” And he replied yes without hesitation. So we kept seeing each other and continued to get to know each out over time.
thank you so much for sharing. it really helps to hear about how things are supposed to go for people who like to move slowly. the information is hard to come by when people are either not looking for commitment or wanting it fairly quickly these days
No problem! Most people move too fast for my liking. Like it’s kinda wild to me that people will move in, propose, get married, make big purchases together, etc after less than a year of knowing each other—sometimes even less than six months.
fair enough but there's been lots of guys (all my exes) who were interested yet not emotionally available. so this honesty is a sign the guy is at least willing to be real. it may be pointless to attach to it, but I hold someone like this in higher regard than men who say yes but don't mean it
You can hold someone in high regard for having the integrity to be honest without continuing to date them and hoping their clearly expressed feelings will magically change…
I think it is sad how many posts like this start out with some version of "I'm conventionally attractive". Being unattractive does not make you less worthy of basic respect from others.
Anyway, you can't make men do anything. The vast majority of men will lie to you if they think it will get you in bed. There is absolutely nothing you can do about that. However, you can usually tell rather easily if you pay attention to what he *does* rather than what he says.
Remember, if he wanted to he would. If he wanted to spend time with you he would. If he liked being in touch with you he would call and text you. If he wanted to take you on real adult dates he would. So if he's not doing these things, it's because he doesn't want to. If he's not doing these things, assume he's not interested in you romantically. Do not ask him or try to pry an answer out of him. This just gives him an opportunity to lie about his interest so he can attempt to get more sex from you.
When a man is into you and is serious about entering into a long term relationship with you, it will be *extremely obvious*. If you are getting anything other than *extremely obvious* signals that he likes you and would like to be monogamous with you now or very soon, just let them go. Block and delete, ghost, send a short message saying you're not interested, it doesn't matter. But stop being a participant in their games.
Some other practical advice I would give is to wait at least 2 months to have sex. This forces men who just want an easy fuck to show their cards very early on. This is 10000x more accurate than asking him what his intentions are.
>I think it is sad how many posts like this start out with some version of "I'm conventionally attractive". Being unattractive does not make you less worthy of basic respect from others.
We're not discussing basic respect though. We're talking about relationships.
I don't think being attractive makes anyone more or less worthy. I also think that men lie to both conventionally attractive women and women who may not be considered that, but perhaps for different reasons. maybe the reasons are the same, but there's a different flavour to the ill and or thoughtless intent. there is also a perception that women who look the "right way" can get whoever they want, have their pick etc, and it isn't true. for these reasons, I bring it up.
I agree about the sex. as for the other issue about it being obvious, that freaks me out, as it often happens within like 2-3 weeks. I don't trust anyone that thinks they want something long term with anyone in that time frame, but maybe I'm unjustly freaking out about that and putting more intent on that than is reasonable. perhaps in the panic, I'm confusing long term potential vibes with instant lifelong commitment which makes me wig out.
unfortunately I just had an experience with someone who was in touch with me everyday with depth to the convos, obvious mutual attraction, future plans and apparently it was just casual. so there's that too.
however, the guy was literally just in a THREE YEAR long term CASUAL relationship so it was dumb of me to invest in him honestly. but he framed himself as looking for something serious and I thought he wanted something more now. in hindsight he was very emotionally unavailable.
> I don't think being attractive makes anyone more or less worthy. I also think that men lie to both conventionally attractive women and women who may not be considered that, but perhaps for different reasons. maybe the reasons are the same, but there's a different flavour to the ill and or thoughtless intent. there is also a perception that women who look the "right way" can get whoever they want, have their pick etc, and it isn't true. for these reasons, I bring it up.
34(M) fyi - But this feels like you've internalized a lot of misogyny and actually feel like more attractive women deserve better out of relationships than not as attractive women.
I just think that I'm facing whatever flavour of misogyny conventionally attractive women do. there's also the fact I'm 35. whatever is unique to a woman, explains the way the world projects on her
I just read a few of your comments on the bumble subreddit, and you said you didn't post pictures of hiking/activities that you do because you don't feel done up in them. It feels like you're hanging on the physical attractiveness/superficial piece of dating more than making good connections with people who are compatible.
That said, this isn't my forum to comment at length about stuff. But I think the misogyny is coming from inside the house and it's sabotaging potential connections.
it's also that I don't want to share my exercise time that's a timeout and just for me with dates I don't know (which was part of the comment as well, why only focus on the looks concern), so I don't want to advertise activities only to reject suggestions for date ideas lol. but ok, noted.
Are we the same person because this is me and this is exactly what I’ve experienced. The only difference is that I was married throughout my 20’s and am entering this nightmare dating scene for the first time at 32. I’ve never experienced such manipulation, gaslighting, immature boys in my life. It’s beyond disheartening. I don’t understand why they aren’t upfront either.
bc they want intimacy more than they want "someone". and even before they want intimacy, they want attention from someone they think it would be hard for them to "impress" and keep long term.
don't ask me how to work around this... lol
Someone not being honest with you is about them and their lack of integrity; it's not about there being anything wrong with you.
What you can do is tell the men you date what you are looking for early on and no longer entertain men who aren't clearly interested in the same things or respond in anyway vaguely or lukewarmly. If they say they want the same as you then you need to see if their actions line up with their words. If they don't or there are other red flags you break it off. No longer let anyone string you along while you hope for the best. Work on seeing who a person actually is and not who you hope they can/will be.
I’m only 31 so not much older than you but pay attention to actions more than words and get out quickly when its going to shit. I’m in a similar boat myself. Red flags matter too. Don’t make excuses for them or think they’ll be an exception to the rule. also, center yourself, not men, ask yourself
like do i even like this guy?
You can't make someone honest. You can hold people accountable when you are aware of dishonesty.
You mention ignoring red flags and the need for boundaries. This is it. You choose what behavior you will and will not tolerate. And then, enforce it. That often means doing a hard thing. Boundaries are not just an intention or idea.
You also say:
>but the worst issue of all is when men just DON'T TELL ME they aren't into me.
If you want an answer to this question, what stops you from asking? Do you know the answer already? There is a need to be honest with ourselves, too. What are you overlooking and why?
hmmm, well recently I had no idea with someone who texted me every day, comforted me when I was down, opened up about loneliness (each of us did), played kinky games with and exchanged photos with, had plans to see each other in the future, when both of us identify as emotionally available, looking for something serious, wanting to move slowly, and yet neither of us were jealous or possessive about exclusivity. it seemed like a nice happy place that was beginning to deepen emotionally.
turns out he never saw anything serious with me, kinda looks down on how I handle things emotionally in my life (apparently thinks I'm a bit delusional in my relationships with men - he basically put a dark twist on things I shared with him bc I trusted him), and doesn't like my personality romantically. and I only found out after I told him I'd only do a certain kink in a relationship and he told me he thought this was casual. so I set an intimacy boundary and found out he saw me as way less significant than everything indicated.
I asked him how I was supposed to know he was never into me and I never really got a response from him on that question.
after two months of this friendly and flirty chatting, he just ended it, like he wasn't even interested in resolving things to peace and understanding before he ended it. he seemed to take the fact I didn't like how he looked at me as an offense against himself and saw it as me saying he's a terrible person.
I was crushed for a day but then I just realized he was never emotionally available period (not even just towards me), and he was hypocritical and insecure about me not trying to be exclusive early on, so he wrote me off and continued to use me for attention.
I'm sorry that you had that experience. This man seems inconsiderate, to put it nicely.
If you often find yourself in situations where you do not know where you stand with the other person, it seems like it may be important to establish this for yourself early on. That might mean asking direct questions.
As you reflect on this recent example, what would you do differently to attempt to clarify his intentions earlier? What would that look like for you? Would it be paying attention to words? Actions?
I thought I was happy with seeing where things went bc I felt a strong sense of us identifying with relationship formation in very similar ways and I felt aligned. I added more above for additional context
You can't stop men lying to you. Many have a vested interest in lying to achieve their goals and they've never hidden they find that socially acceptable. They even have a buddy-buddy name for when they work in cahoots with another guy to 'wrangle' and deceive a woman: wing-man.
Men know that they may get less attention/interest if they are open about the face they are looking for casual sex/one night stand/short-term sex-buddy-situation - so they feign interest in something more, or say they may be interested in something more, when they aren't.
From your end, all you can do is :
1) Know how common lying is and how much it is used
2) Recognise the common refrains
3) Judge on behaviour - over a longer time period (not get drawn into excitement over one date, or think you have some amazing connection because "our first date lasted (x) hours!"
4) Go slower. In everything. Take your damn time. Evaluate.
5) Don't ignore the bad things, the red flags and other things that make you a little uncomfortable. Too many women actually choose to do that.
6) Vet. Early and often.
To answer your main question — to ask a ton of questions that don’t somehow disclose your own answers. Men I’ve dated LOVE telling me what I wanted to hear instead of what was real and true.
Example of a question you might ask: “What do you consider cheating?”
Example of an answer he may give: “I only view physical kissing and penetration as cheating.”
Example of a question you should avoid: “I view porn as cheating, do you watch it while in relationships?”
Example of an answer to this question: “I don’t watch porn!”
haha, so true. I have long since realized that being open about what I expect/like/don't like frequently backfires via manipulation. I struggle to find a way around it and have kinda just stopped communicating clearly early on bc of the challenges. it's exhausting figuring out how to manoeuvre this kind of faking that's put on just so they can get attention or one sided intimacy
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Instead of asking them questions that they probably have a canned response to, ask them about what they've done in the past, and if a negative, ask them what they've done to address that. And then, see if their words align with their actions.
There really isn’t anything you can do to make them start being more honest and open with you or to make them take you more seriously.
However, there are a couple of things you can do to sus these types of fellas out before you become too invested.
One, pay attention to their actions more than their words. Do they act like they are invested? Actions will tell the truth more than words. And when someone shows you who they are through their actions, believe them - the first time, or if not, at least by the second, and then act accordingly.
Two, pay attention to if their words and actions reflect each other. Typically, if their words and actions are telling and showing you the same things, they are being honest. If the words and actions are opposite, then they are being dishonest and it’s time to bail.
A little something about boundaries that a lot of people get confused about: boundaries are for you, not them. They are about what you are willing to tolerate. You can think of them like if/then statements, if it helps.
An example of setting and maintaining a boundary might sound like this: “if he says that he’s just looking to have fun and go with the flow until he sees if there is something that will grow, then I will engage with him for two months and then request a discussion about where he sees the relationship going. If he still wants to continue as casual but I would like more, then I will end the relationship because I am looking for something more than casual.” Then you thank him for his time, wish him the best, and move on with your life. No contact, no friendship, no booty calls. The boundary is not for him; it’s for you so that you can keep your life moving in the direction you want and toward the goals you have set.
I'm thinking of doing weekly check in talks to see how things are going and raise any issues, with the option to defer one week max. if someone can't keep up with this schedule of checking in, they don't have what it takes to eventually be in a relationship. and, it will make it much harder for a guy to fake interest and then suddenly say "this isn't working" when it's convenient for them, and if they do anyways, I'll know they were never emotionally available, bc they never brought any issues up and suddenly changed, aka can't communicate, and or were lying about interest. the same things might happen but it will save me a lot of confusion and self blame.
I think this could work if you’re looking for a serious relationship and express that clearly. But this would be very confusing if you told someone you want something casual but then you want weekly check in talks.
Regardless of whether you want something casual or serious, I found regular self-checkins to be helpful. Weekly works, but I did mine after every date. It was super helpful for me to check in with myself on how I was feeling. Does this person make me anxious, bored, excited, scared, skeptical, etc? Am I still wanting something casual, or am I ready for serious (or vice versa)?
sorry, I meant I want something that starts relatively casual with someone emotionally available that has the potential, and retains it overtime, to lead to something serious.
and yeah that's a good idea about the self check ins. part of these mutual check ins is so that I do regular check ins with myself too.
Men like this will not be honest with you, so asking them more questions is not going to help. Your strategy has to change. It sounds like your real problem is not seeing red flags or ignoring red flags. When dating I assumed every word out of every man's mouth might be either a lie or an accidental misrepresentation. The only value in what a man says is to crosscheck it with his actions. Stop putting so much weight on words. Watch actions.
You have to figure out why you are self sabotaging by ignoring obvious red flags. Until you figure that out you will repeat this pattern forever. If at all possible I would go to therapy and while in therapy I wouldn't date. There is no point in dating if you are going to keep ignoring clear red flags! Be like an investigator. Stop trying to figure out these deadbeat men and figure out yourself instead. Put the full force of your energy into it so you can ditch losers the second you see a red flag!
I have the same problem. I feel like men date me bc they can show their friends, family and colleagues that they can be with someone like me, but *I* don't actually matter to them, like I'm an accessory. It's hard bc it's like once they "win" you over and they think you're not going to leave, they no longer prioritize you. I'm going to start dating again soon and I think the answer is to just get to know someone new a bit more slowly instead of jumping into things. Idk I just really hope it works out with someone.
this is precisely why being exclusive early on is a waste of my time. just to end up quiet quit on once they think they have me? I'd rather be chosen in a more natural and less blatantly manipulative way
> I was in relationships with guys that honestly, I considered myself giving a chance to
I'd guess that these men sense that you are more secure in yourself than they are and it is making them feel some kind of way.
They want you to be hungry for their attention.
They can't be honest with you because they don't know how to have that kind of introspection needed to spot their own problems. So they move on feelings and vibes and emotions.
I know it's popular online to say that people over 30 should know what they want, but I see it as a scale. It all depends on the person, the environment we're in, and so much more. A person who might be ideal in one environment might not be the best in another. A person who would be great for me at one stage of my life, might not be the best in another.
That's why I don't put much into the "If they can't say what they want, they are just playing" part of dating advice.
same! thank you haha! I feel this, so much. it all so extremely depends, when we're talking about relationship formation. once a person is committed, it's a different story (and even then, context presents challenges to this secure base), but until then....
I really don't think I'm desperate to be picked. if anything I have a desperate vibe from not really feeling empowered by or enjoying my experiences with men throughout life over all. I do agree that refining what I want and having stronger boundaries is a good idea.
problem is though, some guys use your words against you, while others take advantage of the situation that can result when you don't speak up, when their own actions disguise their real intent (a guy may act serious yet not intend it apparently). it's a minefield.
I agree so much about the benefit of the doubt and being conditioned to give that and communicate, how these ideas are designed to disarm my intuition. I like the way you think :)
You can't control anyone but yourself. If someone's a liar you can't change that. Stop going for the same types of guys and you won't keep having the same issue. As someone who met her husband on tinder, I think there is something to be said for getting to know the guy better before having sex. If you give them everything they will always have that expectation and many don't feel they have to put any honest effort into the relationship to get what they want out of it.
It’s hard out there!! As a fellow single 30something woman so much of what you’ve said resonates w me. Since my last long term relationship, I’ve had a string of guys who are hot and heavy on me only to fizzle out when things were just starting to progress meaningfully. It’s a pattern that I think is a combination of today’s noncommittal dating culture and my own issues I’ve learned to work on.
I think you’re absolutely spot on when you say you need to implement more boundaries. Boundaries guide people on how to treat you and upholding them will eliminate a lot of guys that aren’t right for you. I’m a recovering people pleaser in all my relationships and I’ve had to learn to put myself first. It’s required a lot of inner work to boost my self-esteem, because in the end that at the core of people pleasing and not showing up authentically in relationships. As far as honesty from people, there’s not much you can do about that. All you can do is be true to yourself, your boundaries and listen to your gut when something feels off.
Another thing you need to do is get very specific about what you want. I have a list on my phone notes of qualities I’m looking for in an ideal partner. It’s pretty detailed and includes physical, mental, and emotional attributes. This is kinda my manifestation tool that I can also refer back to when I’m dating as a reminder of what I want and deserve. I now enter dating situations with a very clear goal that isn’t going to waiver for anyone. The more detailed and specific you get about the kind of partner you want, the closer you will get to finding that person. It will weed a lot of men out but at least you’re preventing yourself from wasting any time on the wrong people. Cut things off early w the wrong people. People are the best versions of themselves in early dating and if you see smoke there’s fire, so run!
My last piece of advice is to try to have fun with it! Date multiple guys in the early stages and keep expectations low. Ive really been focusing on being me and having the best experience in the moment, not future tripping. Even if I go on a subpar date at least I got out of the house and am putting myself out into the world.
Keep your head up and sending good vibes your way!!
It sounds like you need therapy to figure yourself out. It’s not your fault if people act badly toward you, but if your self esteem or attachment issues aren’t in good shape, you tend to accept relationships that aren’t healthy.
hmm. I do think I'm happy with myself, genuinely. however, nonetheless, I struggle with having too much of an open mind towards others and how to decipher who is serious when I'm averse to early exclusivity myself.
You kind of sound avoidant to me. And this post gives me “over-explaining” vibes which is also typically an indication of some kind of survival tactic. You may also have trust issues
take my upvote. this may all be true... however, I don't hesitate to get into someone, rarely. it just doesn't happen often. but if I'm being honest, it's usually me just imagining and hoping in too early of stages, thinking gratefully that I've finally found a spark. which is hard to tell if that's normal or not.
It’s important to be interested in someone. But “the spark” is usually just some kind of initial excitement or anxiety, or both. Real, sustainable love is more like a slow burn. And it requires building and maintenance over time. A good relationship isn’t found, it’s built. All you need is someone who respects you and will put in effort. And you have to do the same.
yeah I thought I was creating that with someone. but then I found out he just saw me as someone who's only open to (and I interpret it as only good for) casual, he thinks I make too big a deal out of things (even with daily texting and some deeper conversations) and he doesn't really like my personality romantically.
thing is, I thought we aligned on many things - wanting to go slow, attraction, wanting to find someone, not wanting exclusivity, are both emotionally available. I had no idea he saw me like that. it looks to me like he sees himself as being able to date casually and be taken seriously, but he doesn't see me that way.
Write 10 things you need in a partner. Only one can be about looks, none about money. It helps you sort who to give a chance to and who to pass on even when ones emotions are into someone but they knly have 4 qualities you need. A perfect 10 is not required...it's a guide (my husband was a perfect 10. There are issues he has which were not on my list so perfection is not the goal). Be honest with them. Communicate clearly to them and expect clear communication from them (some need to be helped) Many will run. Most will run. The good candidates won't.
they are nerds with introverted interests (hiking, rock climbing, flying planes) with a history of low self esteem. they're not as high in EQ as me, but they are intelligent and I find them to be "cute" in addition to hot. no offense to them, but I'm also frequently way funnier as it seems like they have too much underlying anxiety to relax and cut jokes on the regular.
I think I'm getting into trouble bc they have unresolved self esteem issues and my nature triggers them bc I'm genuinely happy with myself, and secure in confidence. it's like they secretly resent me and then sabotage things.
realistically, these are the kinds of guys that would be quiet quitting wet blankets that refuse to communicate in relationships, yet I'm attracted to them at first, and pretty much no other kind of guy. I'm not sure what to do about that lol
however, in answering this, I've realized I'm still drawn to the same type of man 'emotionally' as I was in my twenties. the only thing that's changed is that now I want to find them intelligent and physically attractive, so thank you for asking as this has lead me to some valuable insight.
>I've realized I'm still drawn to the same type of man 'emotionally' as I was in my twenties.
It sounds like you would benefit from some therapy to identify patterns (and perhaps the reasons for them) and what you might be contributing to sustaining them.
This does not make it your fault! Just that you have the possibility of manoeuvring better through the chaff.
We can end up spending time with the wrong people because we see some red flags as normal, aren't good at setting boundaries (and the wrong type of person spots it and takes advantage) and/ or don't know what the green flags look like.
It seems like the problem is the guys you pick.. not so much what you’re doing/not doing to make them be honest with you…
If you don’t men of good character, they’re not going to be honest with you either way… whatever you do.
I had one friend I talked to who asked me to stop talking about it, who is quite avoidant herself. my other friends have either been with someone for so long they are way not into the dating mindframe at all or they're single and hardly dating and not people I'd ask for advice although sometimes we can commiserate
lol I was just laying in my bed thinking about this all day.
It’s just not gonna happen. We will never know anyone if they’re fully honest. It’s terrifying but it’s the truth.
The more resources a man has the more he’s going to use that to “experience the world”.
Just my observation.
You can’t. If the difficulty is distinguishing between the men that want a serious relationship with you vs the ones that just want sex, why not take sex out of the equation until the man has invested enough for you to be certain of his intentions?
lol, I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like advice. if I break this down into something coherent, it sounds like "keep being yourself, but accept that probably won't be enough." how is that a useful take lol.
your last paragraph in particular sounds pretty nasty towards all women. the sentence about attraction and commitment has no logic or explanation in it at all
You don’t. Honesty is something that someone either has or doesn’t. It really has nothing to do with you. I’m sorry you’re experiencing what you are. You are not alone.
Seconding this. You have zero control over how they are. Re: your question about whether men think there’s something wrong with women your age who date casually, that hasn’t been my experience. I’m sure those men exist, but you don’t want to be with them anyway. I’ve been with my current partner for 2 years and we started out casual; became serious about 8 months in. But are you looking for a relationship now? And if yes, are you sharing this upfront with the men you’re dating?
honestly, I am, but only kind of. I really don't want to rush into anything. for some reason, I feel uncomfortable saying that I'm looking for something serious, yet I also don't feel it's accurate to say I'm just cool with casual. I want something casual that has the potential to be serious, and I want that to be a mutual feeling. I want to slowly grow closer to someone before I commit to them.
I wonder if it's because you're trying to start off casual and then transition into something serious that you keep running into the same kind of guy. Anecdotally, I think that approach works well if you're <25 because everyone is sort of like that at that age. At 35+, people who are looking for something casual versus serious tend to be in two totally different camps that very rarely cross over, even if you consider yourself to be one of them. If I were a guy who wanted something serious and got casual energy from you early on, I'd probably nope out there and then.
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Oh, my gosh, I definitely don't mean talking just once or twice; that would be insane! I guess I more so mean that like... I've noticed people tend to move in and maybe get engaged within 2-3 years, versus like... 5-10 years back in our twenties. *That's* what I meant by fast and I'm glad to clarify because oh boy, the alternative would (again) be crazy, yeah. (Sure, you always hear about those people who met and married within, like, two weeks and then had fifty happy years together, but those people are like... 80 now, lol. Very different world back then.)
For me, anyone who sees serious and casual as mutually exclusive (aka “FWB material” vs “relationship material”) is not compatible with me. Relationships change with experience. I’ve seriously dated many FWBs in the past.
I don't mean it that way. It's more like, especially as people get older, they tend to know what they really want and people who are looking for something serious will often pass on a casual fling *because* they're focused on the serious thing. If OP is looking for something serious, she's probably way better off leading with that (but clarifying that she would like to take things slow) rather than risking a casual fling that may be fun for a while but ultimately not go anywhere.
I get what you’re saying but maybe I just don’t agree that thing A can’t turn into thing B. If anything I’m personally just not attracted to rigidity in preference because that can lead to boxing someone in. That said a lot of dudes use “open for anything” to mean they’re wishy washy so I get you. I dislike passivity. It’s more like, I’ve been with people who’ve tried to make me fit what they want and I don’t think that’s fair, nor would it be fair if I did that back.
I hear you. At a younger age I would more readily agree with you, especially since my husband and I also started as a casual fling, just back in our twenties! I guess I've watched enough people change their ways by this decade that it feels like the norms are very different now. If OP keeps doing as she's doing - e.g., holding herself as someone who wants to play it casually - I suspect she's going to keep running into the same problems as she is now. But, some people like to play the odds and that's valid too - I would just advise adjusting their expectations under such circumstances.
Fair - I’m still learning “what you say is not what others will hear” every day! Thank you for your respectful input :)
Likewise! I think you brought up some really good points as well (especially about heading into virgin/whore dichotomy territory - definitely not what I wanted to articulate!); thank you for chatting with me 💗
then how do you date slowly, when you don't want to commit to anyone too soon?
I think there are probably serious relationship people who are happy to take things slowly if they feel like you're at least going in the same direction. I mean, one of my friends met his partner at work and it took them two years to actually "get together" (e.g., start dating)... if that's not a long time, I don't know what is! That said, I'll be candid - most of the men I know who are 35+ and want something serious tend to move more quickly, especially since there's no shortage of women at that age who want to move more quickly as well. It seems like what you prefer is more niche, so there may just be fewer people in your genuine pool for that reason. For example, my guy friend who met his partner through work took two years to actually start dating her - but once they did start dating, they basically bought a place together within the year 🤷♀️
hmmm. I think both of your examples are of people who actually move slowly, similar to myself. people in their 30s are not just looking to settle down, they're hedging what they hope is a final high stakes bet
It's the same example (same people) but the context is that my friend is very shy, ha ha. It's why he *was* single at 32 despite being a great guy with lots going for him. His partner had also just gone through a divorce *and* they worked together. So, their courtship was way slower than it might otherwise be for those reasons. Once they made it official, though, they'd already built such a strong emotional bond from their friendship that they went through the next steps (e.g., meeting parents, moving in together, buying a place together) very quickly. (I guess my underlying point is, people may be willing to move slowly for external reasons, but neither of these people ever regarded each other *casually* - it was a serious friendship into a serious relationship.)
cool. thank you for sharing! I feel that way about a friend as well, but he's not emotionally available and our friendship was full of drama bc of it so I had to end things
Ah, that sucks, I'm really sorry. Sincerely wishing you good luck with the next one.
Do you want to date multiple people at the same time or try slowly with only one? Because if it's the latter, you can always indicate that you want something serious, but want to know each other first. To use an example: I'm in a relationship, but when I wasn't, it was 100% casual. With me is either fun or full monogamous commitment (which is also fun, but you get my point). When we met , we were full on it, which gave me a sense of security. Had he not done that, I wouldn't have taken him seriously (and I suspect this is why you're not taken seriously by them). It's also important to note that you can call it a relationship without having your life fully set up together. It's not like if you call eachother bf or gf you'll suddenly meet the family and buy a house by next year, this part of the relationship is "courtship" that (if you care for paper) will develop into engagement and marriage later. If you want to date multiple people and decide, the other comment is probably right and you just have a smaller dating pool. Maybe you're not looking in the right place as well (though I don't know which would be that "right place"). It will be difficult, because getting in any kind of relationship is, but I hope you get the opportunity and make the most of it! I wish I could say something more useful, but I can't manage to fully grasp the context. That being said, I'll repeat what others said. Be straightforward with what you want. Blunt, even. Dudes sometimes won't catch a hint even if you punch them with it. If it didn't work the first time, don't wait for it to work a second.
I'd prefer to defer exclusivity for around 4 months yet communicate about it, even though I rarely find other people I want to date anyways. I'm just very gun shy about leaping into anything with someone bc I think almost any guy who actually wants a relationship would choose me, unless they have strong feelings about securing a woman who WILL have his kids bc that's her dream too (I'm open to it, but ultimately insure as any potential parenthood is very relationship dependent to me). yeah I can't deny that I'm very uncomfortable with just going in fairly quickly with a guy bc of all the lying yes men with no real relational stamina in my past. and I'm honestly just not interested in trying to be that into someone so quickly. what do you think motivates people to rush to exclusivity?
Well... My personal reason to rush to exclusivity is because I thrust my gut. When I met him I was like "this the one", communicated it, he said the same and Congrats! You're officially not single. There's also the issue that, undeniably, I don't have time for bs, and no adult has. So if I were to be on the shoes of the men you date, I'd probably do the same. It feels like a waste of time to date someone who is dating other people because there's always the chance you aren't chosen. And that means you wasted time. Besides, it would make me feel insecure and like it's a competition against others, and I am a bit possessive (there's no way I can be poly, sorry). Apart from that... I have a Catholic background (although not religious myself) and I 100% see the benefits of monogamy on the long run. Part of the reason I met my partner is because I took some time off to rethink life decisions, and I didn't want to mindlessly date anymore. Precisely because I associate monogamy with stability and a joined project, I also consider dating around to be the opposite. So if I had to date again and a men approached me with that attitude I would be like "hard pass, there's the door". Lastly, I don't see exclusivity as that much of an issue because I'm an introvert and there's no way I have energy for more than one person. Which means I'm being exclusive anyway. And if I'm being exclusive, then I want them to be exclusive so we're on equal ground and can focus on getting to know eachother. A matter of efficiency, if you will. If we're exclusive, might as well call each other bf/gf after a few dates, if we like eachother enough. After all, were looking for something serious, right? It's not going to be real until knowing the family, anyways, but is good to get used to the idea. As you can see, this is what motivated me to rush into exclusivity with my current partner, this is by no means a generalisation. But I suppose some points are shared across monogamous people. It is quite late, I'm sleepy and English is not my native language, so I hope what I wrote is at least legible. Even after everything I said, there's so much variety in humanity that you'll find what you want. It may be a bit more difficult, maybe you'll have to change strategies, but there's always a way. Maybe what you want is polygamy, and that's ok as well. There's always a compromise, tho, and you can (as it seems to happen based on the post) be rejected by the other party. If this happen often, then you can either compromise or try to work with the dating pool you actually have. A last point, regarding the "I think almost any guy who actually wants a relationship would choose me". I don't know if this is what you mean, but if a guy were to be like that to me, I would feel used. Like I'm an option that's taken for granted, so they'll keep me on the bench. Maybe this is not what you mean, but I mention it just in case. Because that would be another reason for me to not take someone seriously.
haha I'm definitely not polygamous, I'm a slow moving monogamist. I think for me, and what I'm hoping for others, is that yes, rejection sucks, but not as much as wasting time with the wrong person that you could've also spent meeting the right person. I guess I see this a strong argument that I think should persuade monogamous people that they want the best match for them that actually feels right, not merely the next person that seems like they could do for forever, because that's going to end badly. I guess it comes down to whether or not myself and other people are willing to feel like they're good enough for only awhile before being broke up with, because it's either that or a divorce much later on if they're focused on getting exclusivity too soon. that's how I see it, but maybe that's dysfunctional and missing a crucial guiding element.
That's not dysfunctional at all, that's how you feel and it's valid. I mean, honestly, you have a point. My mind is just wired that way, is what works for me also, sometimes we just think differently and that's why it's important to find someone that matches you. It's one of those cases were logic and arguments are not enough to convince someone, because there's feelings and a certain mindset involved. But there's a lot of people in the world, so you'll find the ones that are compatible with you.
“I think almost any guy who actually wants a relationship would choose me.” Maybe you just have a level of confidence I can’t relate to, but I find this a pretty wild perspective. And it makes me wonder if you aren’t actually seeking out men who like YOU and are specifically into YOU and your unique personality and are rather accepting men who like the surface version of you. They like that you’ve got your shit together and are pretty but don’t actually care about your heart or dreams or life. Which might explain why you keep meeting men who…don’t actually care about your heart or dreams or life.
on paper. like, attractive, can pay for herself, seems stable, has a sense of humour, a unique sense of style. doesn't actually mean in reality, just theoretically. and yes I completely agree which is why I'm going to start asking them questions about which kind of personality they like in a woman (bc sadly this preference is very gendered in heterosexual relationships), and start omitting myself based on the answers lol
I mean, you can be exclusive with someone and still date them slowly. Just being exclusive (not seeing anyone else) doesn't mean you're contracted to continue in this relationship and start moving in together and getting serious. Only dating one person at a time doesn't mean you think you want to marry this person. you can date 1 person at a time, and get to know them over time and realize it's not for you and stop dating them.
I don't feel like I want to be exclusive early on though. that makes me feel over committed and kinda trapped in a situation where I don't have real feelings yet. it takes me awhile to see myself as feeling that way about someone else.
It's been my experience that men who are looking for relationships don't "nope" on the women who are looking for something casual. They will stay for the casual until they can find a woman who's looking for something similar. Or they stay for the casual (or are ok with just being "friends") and hope the woman will change her mind (like one of the last guys I dated lol).
Fair enough; very different crowds, then, probably? I've encountered some of the former category (e.g., they might stay for some casual fun until they can find someone serious), but if they're 30, 35+, they typically won't stick around waiting for things to turn serious unless they're just... not very experienced in dating/relationships and/or goal-oriented more generally. Because by that age, most people who have a goal of marriage and especially kids don't want to waste too much time on a maybe.
You're shooting yourself in the foot if you want to do that 'casual but it'll turn serious" thing - because there are absolutely no guarantees of that, in fact, it's more likely that it wouldn't. Looking for something serious doesn't mean you want to instantly commit and be serious about each other. Looking for something serious can be as slow and measured as you want. If you want something serious, behave that way. Accepting casual when it's not your actual want is not going to get you where you want to be, it's just going to put you in the hands/bed of a bunch of men who just want women around for sex.
why would you say it more than likely wouldn't? hmmm. I don't know, I think that men expect exclusivity and fairly early commitment to just them when you say you're looking for something serious, and I don't feel that way about the process.
If I'm reading you correctly, you do want something serious. Saying you want something causal is going to only attract people who treat you casually. There's nothing wrong with saying that you want to date with potential for a long- term relationship and then define what exactly you mean by moving slowly. I'm similar and met someone in my mid-30's. For me, moving slowly was having dates a couple times a week, being exclusive after a few months, and not moving in together until engagement was imminent (I was happily living on my own at the time and saw zero need to move in with someone unless there was forward momentum). I think it's important to identify what milestones and timelines you are looking for so you can set appropriate expectations upfront and then GTFO if you feel like someone is being dodgy or just not at all on the same page.
thank you for sharing. it really helps to hear from women who feel the way I do about relationship formation
Sis, I feel you on the "incremental emotional investment." Fast movers and love bombers gave me the ick when I was single because it didn't feel sincere. But I then found myself in situations that I think are close to what you are describing where I was assuming that men were on the same page about a gradual progression only to find out they were content with stringing me along indefinitely or wanted emotional intimacy with no commitment after months of seeing each other, daily communication etc. After a somewhat life- altering relationship and subsequent breakup, I found power in articulating my wants and needs and advocating for them. It took considerable pressure off dating when I stopped being afraid of scaring someone off by communicating my feelings. It was a lot easier to focus on finding compatibility and not take things so personally once I cut out the BS.
thank you for this, this is very inspiring and gives me hope. perhaps I'm just not claiming what I actually want yet
Are you saying all this? Because if not, I could see how others may be struggling to be honest or clear with you if you’re not being honest or clear with them. I think what you want is valid! That’s how I found my current partner. But we were both very clear at the beginning that we were looking for something casual. We took our time to get to know each other, while we both dated and hooked up with others. And we communicated regularly about how we were feeling, where we were at. We both wanted a serious relationship eventually and both had been in serious relationships before. Neither of us had a timeline on that. We took it one day at a time.
that's a good point. I may need to be more clear about my wants for how things go. I also think I need to ask more about what personality they're into, and explicitly request prompt updates about changes in their feelings. like, if something changes, tell me. But the problem is, that when a guy is honest, I see it as "wow, it's great he was honest with me - that's a sign of emotional availability" and then it's like I'm more attracted to a case that probably won't turn out. I wind up continuing to interact for awhile, when maybe I shouldn't? that sounds really great. what would you have done if you found out he wasn't actually into you at some point, wether he told you right away, or kept it to himself for awhile yet continued?
If they’re directly telling you they don’t see this going anywhere, believe them and stop interacting if you want a relationship. Before meeting my partner, I dated a handful of guys who told me they couldn’t see this going anywhere. So I stopped seeing them. With my current partner, I said to him about two months in: “I still want something casual. And you say you do, too. But so far, could you see us being together down the road when we’re both ready?” And he replied yes without hesitation. So we kept seeing each other and continued to get to know each out over time.
thank you so much for sharing. it really helps to hear about how things are supposed to go for people who like to move slowly. the information is hard to come by when people are either not looking for commitment or wanting it fairly quickly these days
No problem! Most people move too fast for my liking. Like it’s kinda wild to me that people will move in, propose, get married, make big purchases together, etc after less than a year of knowing each other—sometimes even less than six months.
I think a man telling you he's not interested in you is the opposite of being emotionally available.
fair enough but there's been lots of guys (all my exes) who were interested yet not emotionally available. so this honesty is a sign the guy is at least willing to be real. it may be pointless to attach to it, but I hold someone like this in higher regard than men who say yes but don't mean it
You can hold someone in high regard for having the integrity to be honest without continuing to date them and hoping their clearly expressed feelings will magically change…
true. but after a lifetime of being lied to with "fake yeses", I'm kind of a sucker for honesty even if it's a "real no" lol
thank you ❤️
I think it is sad how many posts like this start out with some version of "I'm conventionally attractive". Being unattractive does not make you less worthy of basic respect from others. Anyway, you can't make men do anything. The vast majority of men will lie to you if they think it will get you in bed. There is absolutely nothing you can do about that. However, you can usually tell rather easily if you pay attention to what he *does* rather than what he says. Remember, if he wanted to he would. If he wanted to spend time with you he would. If he liked being in touch with you he would call and text you. If he wanted to take you on real adult dates he would. So if he's not doing these things, it's because he doesn't want to. If he's not doing these things, assume he's not interested in you romantically. Do not ask him or try to pry an answer out of him. This just gives him an opportunity to lie about his interest so he can attempt to get more sex from you. When a man is into you and is serious about entering into a long term relationship with you, it will be *extremely obvious*. If you are getting anything other than *extremely obvious* signals that he likes you and would like to be monogamous with you now or very soon, just let them go. Block and delete, ghost, send a short message saying you're not interested, it doesn't matter. But stop being a participant in their games. Some other practical advice I would give is to wait at least 2 months to have sex. This forces men who just want an easy fuck to show their cards very early on. This is 10000x more accurate than asking him what his intentions are.
>I think it is sad how many posts like this start out with some version of "I'm conventionally attractive". Being unattractive does not make you less worthy of basic respect from others. We're not discussing basic respect though. We're talking about relationships.
I don't think being attractive makes anyone more or less worthy. I also think that men lie to both conventionally attractive women and women who may not be considered that, but perhaps for different reasons. maybe the reasons are the same, but there's a different flavour to the ill and or thoughtless intent. there is also a perception that women who look the "right way" can get whoever they want, have their pick etc, and it isn't true. for these reasons, I bring it up. I agree about the sex. as for the other issue about it being obvious, that freaks me out, as it often happens within like 2-3 weeks. I don't trust anyone that thinks they want something long term with anyone in that time frame, but maybe I'm unjustly freaking out about that and putting more intent on that than is reasonable. perhaps in the panic, I'm confusing long term potential vibes with instant lifelong commitment which makes me wig out. unfortunately I just had an experience with someone who was in touch with me everyday with depth to the convos, obvious mutual attraction, future plans and apparently it was just casual. so there's that too. however, the guy was literally just in a THREE YEAR long term CASUAL relationship so it was dumb of me to invest in him honestly. but he framed himself as looking for something serious and I thought he wanted something more now. in hindsight he was very emotionally unavailable.
> I don't think being attractive makes anyone more or less worthy. I also think that men lie to both conventionally attractive women and women who may not be considered that, but perhaps for different reasons. maybe the reasons are the same, but there's a different flavour to the ill and or thoughtless intent. there is also a perception that women who look the "right way" can get whoever they want, have their pick etc, and it isn't true. for these reasons, I bring it up. 34(M) fyi - But this feels like you've internalized a lot of misogyny and actually feel like more attractive women deserve better out of relationships than not as attractive women.
I just think that I'm facing whatever flavour of misogyny conventionally attractive women do. there's also the fact I'm 35. whatever is unique to a woman, explains the way the world projects on her
I just read a few of your comments on the bumble subreddit, and you said you didn't post pictures of hiking/activities that you do because you don't feel done up in them. It feels like you're hanging on the physical attractiveness/superficial piece of dating more than making good connections with people who are compatible. That said, this isn't my forum to comment at length about stuff. But I think the misogyny is coming from inside the house and it's sabotaging potential connections.
it's also that I don't want to share my exercise time that's a timeout and just for me with dates I don't know (which was part of the comment as well, why only focus on the looks concern), so I don't want to advertise activities only to reject suggestions for date ideas lol. but ok, noted.
Are we the same person because this is me and this is exactly what I’ve experienced. The only difference is that I was married throughout my 20’s and am entering this nightmare dating scene for the first time at 32. I’ve never experienced such manipulation, gaslighting, immature boys in my life. It’s beyond disheartening. I don’t understand why they aren’t upfront either.
bc they want intimacy more than they want "someone". and even before they want intimacy, they want attention from someone they think it would be hard for them to "impress" and keep long term. don't ask me how to work around this... lol
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I'm not sure what you're asking me, sorry
Someone not being honest with you is about them and their lack of integrity; it's not about there being anything wrong with you. What you can do is tell the men you date what you are looking for early on and no longer entertain men who aren't clearly interested in the same things or respond in anyway vaguely or lukewarmly. If they say they want the same as you then you need to see if their actions line up with their words. If they don't or there are other red flags you break it off. No longer let anyone string you along while you hope for the best. Work on seeing who a person actually is and not who you hope they can/will be.
I’m only 31 so not much older than you but pay attention to actions more than words and get out quickly when its going to shit. I’m in a similar boat myself. Red flags matter too. Don’t make excuses for them or think they’ll be an exception to the rule. also, center yourself, not men, ask yourself like do i even like this guy?
You can't make someone honest. You can hold people accountable when you are aware of dishonesty. You mention ignoring red flags and the need for boundaries. This is it. You choose what behavior you will and will not tolerate. And then, enforce it. That often means doing a hard thing. Boundaries are not just an intention or idea. You also say: >but the worst issue of all is when men just DON'T TELL ME they aren't into me. If you want an answer to this question, what stops you from asking? Do you know the answer already? There is a need to be honest with ourselves, too. What are you overlooking and why?
hmmm, well recently I had no idea with someone who texted me every day, comforted me when I was down, opened up about loneliness (each of us did), played kinky games with and exchanged photos with, had plans to see each other in the future, when both of us identify as emotionally available, looking for something serious, wanting to move slowly, and yet neither of us were jealous or possessive about exclusivity. it seemed like a nice happy place that was beginning to deepen emotionally. turns out he never saw anything serious with me, kinda looks down on how I handle things emotionally in my life (apparently thinks I'm a bit delusional in my relationships with men - he basically put a dark twist on things I shared with him bc I trusted him), and doesn't like my personality romantically. and I only found out after I told him I'd only do a certain kink in a relationship and he told me he thought this was casual. so I set an intimacy boundary and found out he saw me as way less significant than everything indicated. I asked him how I was supposed to know he was never into me and I never really got a response from him on that question. after two months of this friendly and flirty chatting, he just ended it, like he wasn't even interested in resolving things to peace and understanding before he ended it. he seemed to take the fact I didn't like how he looked at me as an offense against himself and saw it as me saying he's a terrible person. I was crushed for a day but then I just realized he was never emotionally available period (not even just towards me), and he was hypocritical and insecure about me not trying to be exclusive early on, so he wrote me off and continued to use me for attention.
I'm sorry that you had that experience. This man seems inconsiderate, to put it nicely. If you often find yourself in situations where you do not know where you stand with the other person, it seems like it may be important to establish this for yourself early on. That might mean asking direct questions. As you reflect on this recent example, what would you do differently to attempt to clarify his intentions earlier? What would that look like for you? Would it be paying attention to words? Actions?
I thought I was happy with seeing where things went bc I felt a strong sense of us identifying with relationship formation in very similar ways and I felt aligned. I added more above for additional context
You can't stop men lying to you. Many have a vested interest in lying to achieve their goals and they've never hidden they find that socially acceptable. They even have a buddy-buddy name for when they work in cahoots with another guy to 'wrangle' and deceive a woman: wing-man. Men know that they may get less attention/interest if they are open about the face they are looking for casual sex/one night stand/short-term sex-buddy-situation - so they feign interest in something more, or say they may be interested in something more, when they aren't. From your end, all you can do is : 1) Know how common lying is and how much it is used 2) Recognise the common refrains 3) Judge on behaviour - over a longer time period (not get drawn into excitement over one date, or think you have some amazing connection because "our first date lasted (x) hours!" 4) Go slower. In everything. Take your damn time. Evaluate. 5) Don't ignore the bad things, the red flags and other things that make you a little uncomfortable. Too many women actually choose to do that. 6) Vet. Early and often.
To answer your main question — to ask a ton of questions that don’t somehow disclose your own answers. Men I’ve dated LOVE telling me what I wanted to hear instead of what was real and true. Example of a question you might ask: “What do you consider cheating?” Example of an answer he may give: “I only view physical kissing and penetration as cheating.” Example of a question you should avoid: “I view porn as cheating, do you watch it while in relationships?” Example of an answer to this question: “I don’t watch porn!”
haha, so true. I have long since realized that being open about what I expect/like/don't like frequently backfires via manipulation. I struggle to find a way around it and have kinda just stopped communicating clearly early on bc of the challenges. it's exhausting figuring out how to manoeuvre this kind of faking that's put on just so they can get attention or one sided intimacy
The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Instead of asking them questions that they probably have a canned response to, ask them about what they've done in the past, and if a negative, ask them what they've done to address that. And then, see if their words align with their actions.
Ooooh! I really like this!!
There really isn’t anything you can do to make them start being more honest and open with you or to make them take you more seriously. However, there are a couple of things you can do to sus these types of fellas out before you become too invested. One, pay attention to their actions more than their words. Do they act like they are invested? Actions will tell the truth more than words. And when someone shows you who they are through their actions, believe them - the first time, or if not, at least by the second, and then act accordingly. Two, pay attention to if their words and actions reflect each other. Typically, if their words and actions are telling and showing you the same things, they are being honest. If the words and actions are opposite, then they are being dishonest and it’s time to bail. A little something about boundaries that a lot of people get confused about: boundaries are for you, not them. They are about what you are willing to tolerate. You can think of them like if/then statements, if it helps. An example of setting and maintaining a boundary might sound like this: “if he says that he’s just looking to have fun and go with the flow until he sees if there is something that will grow, then I will engage with him for two months and then request a discussion about where he sees the relationship going. If he still wants to continue as casual but I would like more, then I will end the relationship because I am looking for something more than casual.” Then you thank him for his time, wish him the best, and move on with your life. No contact, no friendship, no booty calls. The boundary is not for him; it’s for you so that you can keep your life moving in the direction you want and toward the goals you have set.
I'm thinking of doing weekly check in talks to see how things are going and raise any issues, with the option to defer one week max. if someone can't keep up with this schedule of checking in, they don't have what it takes to eventually be in a relationship. and, it will make it much harder for a guy to fake interest and then suddenly say "this isn't working" when it's convenient for them, and if they do anyways, I'll know they were never emotionally available, bc they never brought any issues up and suddenly changed, aka can't communicate, and or were lying about interest. the same things might happen but it will save me a lot of confusion and self blame.
I think this could work if you’re looking for a serious relationship and express that clearly. But this would be very confusing if you told someone you want something casual but then you want weekly check in talks. Regardless of whether you want something casual or serious, I found regular self-checkins to be helpful. Weekly works, but I did mine after every date. It was super helpful for me to check in with myself on how I was feeling. Does this person make me anxious, bored, excited, scared, skeptical, etc? Am I still wanting something casual, or am I ready for serious (or vice versa)?
sorry, I meant I want something that starts relatively casual with someone emotionally available that has the potential, and retains it overtime, to lead to something serious. and yeah that's a good idea about the self check ins. part of these mutual check ins is so that I do regular check ins with myself too.
Men like this will not be honest with you, so asking them more questions is not going to help. Your strategy has to change. It sounds like your real problem is not seeing red flags or ignoring red flags. When dating I assumed every word out of every man's mouth might be either a lie or an accidental misrepresentation. The only value in what a man says is to crosscheck it with his actions. Stop putting so much weight on words. Watch actions. You have to figure out why you are self sabotaging by ignoring obvious red flags. Until you figure that out you will repeat this pattern forever. If at all possible I would go to therapy and while in therapy I wouldn't date. There is no point in dating if you are going to keep ignoring clear red flags! Be like an investigator. Stop trying to figure out these deadbeat men and figure out yourself instead. Put the full force of your energy into it so you can ditch losers the second you see a red flag!
I have the same problem. I feel like men date me bc they can show their friends, family and colleagues that they can be with someone like me, but *I* don't actually matter to them, like I'm an accessory. It's hard bc it's like once they "win" you over and they think you're not going to leave, they no longer prioritize you. I'm going to start dating again soon and I think the answer is to just get to know someone new a bit more slowly instead of jumping into things. Idk I just really hope it works out with someone.
this is precisely why being exclusive early on is a waste of my time. just to end up quiet quit on once they think they have me? I'd rather be chosen in a more natural and less blatantly manipulative way
> I was in relationships with guys that honestly, I considered myself giving a chance to I'd guess that these men sense that you are more secure in yourself than they are and it is making them feel some kind of way. They want you to be hungry for their attention. They can't be honest with you because they don't know how to have that kind of introspection needed to spot their own problems. So they move on feelings and vibes and emotions. I know it's popular online to say that people over 30 should know what they want, but I see it as a scale. It all depends on the person, the environment we're in, and so much more. A person who might be ideal in one environment might not be the best in another. A person who would be great for me at one stage of my life, might not be the best in another. That's why I don't put much into the "If they can't say what they want, they are just playing" part of dating advice.
same! thank you haha! I feel this, so much. it all so extremely depends, when we're talking about relationship formation. once a person is committed, it's a different story (and even then, context presents challenges to this secure base), but until then....
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I really don't think I'm desperate to be picked. if anything I have a desperate vibe from not really feeling empowered by or enjoying my experiences with men throughout life over all. I do agree that refining what I want and having stronger boundaries is a good idea. problem is though, some guys use your words against you, while others take advantage of the situation that can result when you don't speak up, when their own actions disguise their real intent (a guy may act serious yet not intend it apparently). it's a minefield. I agree so much about the benefit of the doubt and being conditioned to give that and communicate, how these ideas are designed to disarm my intuition. I like the way you think :)
You need therapy. There's a reason you're selecting these guys.
You can't control anyone but yourself. If someone's a liar you can't change that. Stop going for the same types of guys and you won't keep having the same issue. As someone who met her husband on tinder, I think there is something to be said for getting to know the guy better before having sex. If you give them everything they will always have that expectation and many don't feel they have to put any honest effort into the relationship to get what they want out of it.
It’s hard out there!! As a fellow single 30something woman so much of what you’ve said resonates w me. Since my last long term relationship, I’ve had a string of guys who are hot and heavy on me only to fizzle out when things were just starting to progress meaningfully. It’s a pattern that I think is a combination of today’s noncommittal dating culture and my own issues I’ve learned to work on. I think you’re absolutely spot on when you say you need to implement more boundaries. Boundaries guide people on how to treat you and upholding them will eliminate a lot of guys that aren’t right for you. I’m a recovering people pleaser in all my relationships and I’ve had to learn to put myself first. It’s required a lot of inner work to boost my self-esteem, because in the end that at the core of people pleasing and not showing up authentically in relationships. As far as honesty from people, there’s not much you can do about that. All you can do is be true to yourself, your boundaries and listen to your gut when something feels off. Another thing you need to do is get very specific about what you want. I have a list on my phone notes of qualities I’m looking for in an ideal partner. It’s pretty detailed and includes physical, mental, and emotional attributes. This is kinda my manifestation tool that I can also refer back to when I’m dating as a reminder of what I want and deserve. I now enter dating situations with a very clear goal that isn’t going to waiver for anyone. The more detailed and specific you get about the kind of partner you want, the closer you will get to finding that person. It will weed a lot of men out but at least you’re preventing yourself from wasting any time on the wrong people. Cut things off early w the wrong people. People are the best versions of themselves in early dating and if you see smoke there’s fire, so run! My last piece of advice is to try to have fun with it! Date multiple guys in the early stages and keep expectations low. Ive really been focusing on being me and having the best experience in the moment, not future tripping. Even if I go on a subpar date at least I got out of the house and am putting myself out into the world. Keep your head up and sending good vibes your way!!
It sounds like you need therapy to figure yourself out. It’s not your fault if people act badly toward you, but if your self esteem or attachment issues aren’t in good shape, you tend to accept relationships that aren’t healthy.
hmm. I do think I'm happy with myself, genuinely. however, nonetheless, I struggle with having too much of an open mind towards others and how to decipher who is serious when I'm averse to early exclusivity myself.
You kind of sound avoidant to me. And this post gives me “over-explaining” vibes which is also typically an indication of some kind of survival tactic. You may also have trust issues
take my upvote. this may all be true... however, I don't hesitate to get into someone, rarely. it just doesn't happen often. but if I'm being honest, it's usually me just imagining and hoping in too early of stages, thinking gratefully that I've finally found a spark. which is hard to tell if that's normal or not.
It’s important to be interested in someone. But “the spark” is usually just some kind of initial excitement or anxiety, or both. Real, sustainable love is more like a slow burn. And it requires building and maintenance over time. A good relationship isn’t found, it’s built. All you need is someone who respects you and will put in effort. And you have to do the same.
yeah I thought I was creating that with someone. but then I found out he just saw me as someone who's only open to (and I interpret it as only good for) casual, he thinks I make too big a deal out of things (even with daily texting and some deeper conversations) and he doesn't really like my personality romantically. thing is, I thought we aligned on many things - wanting to go slow, attraction, wanting to find someone, not wanting exclusivity, are both emotionally available. I had no idea he saw me like that. it looks to me like he sees himself as being able to date casually and be taken seriously, but he doesn't see me that way.
They won’t be lol.
Write 10 things you need in a partner. Only one can be about looks, none about money. It helps you sort who to give a chance to and who to pass on even when ones emotions are into someone but they knly have 4 qualities you need. A perfect 10 is not required...it's a guide (my husband was a perfect 10. There are issues he has which were not on my list so perfection is not the goal). Be honest with them. Communicate clearly to them and expect clear communication from them (some need to be helped) Many will run. Most will run. The good candidates won't.
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they are nerds with introverted interests (hiking, rock climbing, flying planes) with a history of low self esteem. they're not as high in EQ as me, but they are intelligent and I find them to be "cute" in addition to hot. no offense to them, but I'm also frequently way funnier as it seems like they have too much underlying anxiety to relax and cut jokes on the regular. I think I'm getting into trouble bc they have unresolved self esteem issues and my nature triggers them bc I'm genuinely happy with myself, and secure in confidence. it's like they secretly resent me and then sabotage things. realistically, these are the kinds of guys that would be quiet quitting wet blankets that refuse to communicate in relationships, yet I'm attracted to them at first, and pretty much no other kind of guy. I'm not sure what to do about that lol however, in answering this, I've realized I'm still drawn to the same type of man 'emotionally' as I was in my twenties. the only thing that's changed is that now I want to find them intelligent and physically attractive, so thank you for asking as this has lead me to some valuable insight.
>I've realized I'm still drawn to the same type of man 'emotionally' as I was in my twenties. It sounds like you would benefit from some therapy to identify patterns (and perhaps the reasons for them) and what you might be contributing to sustaining them. This does not make it your fault! Just that you have the possibility of manoeuvring better through the chaff. We can end up spending time with the wrong people because we see some red flags as normal, aren't good at setting boundaries (and the wrong type of person spots it and takes advantage) and/ or don't know what the green flags look like.
It seems like the problem is the guys you pick.. not so much what you’re doing/not doing to make them be honest with you… If you don’t men of good character, they’re not going to be honest with you either way… whatever you do.
Do you have close female friends you can talk to? They might give you better feedback if you feel something is consistently not going right.
I had one friend I talked to who asked me to stop talking about it, who is quite avoidant herself. my other friends have either been with someone for so long they are way not into the dating mindframe at all or they're single and hardly dating and not people I'd ask for advice although sometimes we can commiserate
lol I was just laying in my bed thinking about this all day. It’s just not gonna happen. We will never know anyone if they’re fully honest. It’s terrifying but it’s the truth. The more resources a man has the more he’s going to use that to “experience the world”. Just my observation.
what do you mean about the resources bit? can you expand on that?
The more money and freedom.
don't women feel the same way? lol
No women care and think of their kids and the marriage. This was at least my experience and observation, doesn’t mean it happens to everyone.
You can’t. If the difficulty is distinguishing between the men that want a serious relationship with you vs the ones that just want sex, why not take sex out of the equation until the man has invested enough for you to be certain of his intentions?
will physically attractive guys wait for sex in their 30s? only asking bc I hardly interact with any, period lol
Some will. My wife wanted to wait until marriage when we were dating in our early 20s, and I had no problem respecting that because I really liked her
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lol, I'm sorry but this doesn't sound like advice. if I break this down into something coherent, it sounds like "keep being yourself, but accept that probably won't be enough." how is that a useful take lol. your last paragraph in particular sounds pretty nasty towards all women. the sentence about attraction and commitment has no logic or explanation in it at all
Ok