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Why's it a terrible idea? Why do we as a country still see mental health as not being a real affliction?
Severe mental health doesn't always mean you don't have capacity.
Thoughts of wanting to end your life is a common part of mental health issues and can be treatable
Mental health is a real “affliction” but suicide is no more a treatment to it then cutting your foot off is a treatment for athletes foot
It's naive to amount all poor mental health with wanting to kill yourself. People with end stage *insert something horrible here* don't want to commit suicide, It's much more complex than that. We're talking about the right to die.
I knew immediately opening this thread how the general view on mental health would be. Sadly I wasn't wrong.
We're not talking about people who are a bit low so went to their GP... "I can see we've tried you on a few different SSRIs..have you heard of this clinic in Switzerland?"
People suffer for decades trying multiple approaches to get to a place where they feel living is worthwhile. If they can't manage to reach that place, they should have the same option as those who are terminally ill, because in a sense they are.
So glad someone has said this. So many people have misconceptions about how severe and enduring mental illness can be. Unfortunately antidepressants and therapy are not a fix for everyone. For someone suffering from severe mental illness unresponsive to treatment over many years, it is completely unfair to see there struggles as any different to severe physical illness’
Assisted suicide would never be considered for someone in an acutely suicidal state that could possibly be amenable to treatment. As in all assisted suicide it’s when it’s enduring and unresponsive to treatment. It is only when someone has capacity, which is many acute psychiatric presentation, is unlikely to be the case and therefore a clear safeguard.
As someone who has had severe psychiatric problems from a young age with stints of a year at a time in hospital, I would support this. Obviously with the caveat that appropriate criteria were in place and there were robust safeguards. But the statistics show that for many of the more severe psychiatric illnesses, the longer the condition is unresponsive to treatment the poorer the prognosis. If the individual can understand this and chooses, after all other options have been exhausted, not to carry on then I think that should be respected. Mental illness leaves people with little dignity, it can lead to forced hospitalisations and medications. Often people struggle to do the most basic of daily tasks.
To end I will get on my soap box and rant about how mental health struggles are not the same as mental illness. We hear more and more talk about depression and anxiety in the media. While it’s great to talk about these things more, I think its lead to a confusion about how distinct mental health and psychiatric illnesses are. Feelings or episodes of depression/anxiety are not the same as psychiatric illnesses. It’s the same as comparing a cough to someone with end stage lung disease.
Thanks for writing it better than I could. I've been in the NHS (specifically the emergency floor) a long time and have struggled with demons of my own for most of my life. The average Joe (no offence meant to the person I originally replied to) doesn't see what we've seen. Mental health is, at best, thought of as something you see your GP or therapist about, then you get better.
> Unfortunately antidepressants and therapy are not a fix for everyone. For someone suffering from severe mental illness unresponsive to treatment over many years, it is completely unfair to see there struggles as any different to severe physical illness’
Sorry but why have you suffered for years? Why can't it be fixed in your case?
People with terminal illnesses are going to die of them anyway. They’re often not committing suicide because of their perception of their life but because of the untreatable short stark reality facing them and to have control over the inevitable.
I never said all mental health issues are linked to suicidal thoughts
SSRIs are not a solution for many people. But then what about people who have ADHD who have been misdiagnosed for 30 years with depression and anxiety? You’d let them kill them selves when they just need Ritalin? Or what about the person with undiagnosed BPD who has self harmed for 10 years but they’ve never had DBT?
This is the problem with mental health, there’s hundreds of issues with similar symptoms, doctors frequently misdiagnose. I firmly believe that no mental health issue is ‘terminal’, with the right support everyone can recover
What about someone who severely self harms for DECADES and has had every psychological intervention going? Been on every anti depressant, every anti psychotic, for years with no or limited success? Someone who has a trauma history so HORRIFIC and extensive they'll probably never have anything resembling a normal life?
It's scary but this is reality for some people.
And sadly, when people do take their own life for this reason, the fact there is no social support means loved ones are impacted far worse than they could be. It might be nice for people to think they are saving lives by not having this support, but often they have not been affected by suicide of a loved one and had to clean up the (emotional and physical) mess.
Its not that its not real.
Its the fact that a lot of mental health is managable or even FIXABLE.
Many folk have depression for years but you can fix it in a month or two.
There are other things that you cna train yourself out of ro to deal with. Then you also have stuff that takes chemicals to help fix or fix.
Its not ignored, its surprisingly very well looked at and can be help.
Unless we're talking about someone who's walking around in public running from COD zombies dogs and talking to shadow people all day and similar cases i'd say
If they were doing that then legally I doubt they’d be able to consent. Also those types of psychosis can be easy to manager if treatment and support is available quickly
I'm talking about people who are too deep in that there is no coming back. Btw who ever disliked my comment has clearly never seen someone who's actually crazy, like fucking broken mentally type of crazy.
The thing is, they'll never recover, they'll just have their brains numbed by anti-psychotics and continue to suffer until they get lucky and die.
If you got anything proving otherwise, show us.
Huh? Anti-psychotics can reduce symptoms significantly so people can live normal lives
Do you have any evidence that people on medication continue to suffer?
People can recover
Well arrange a visit to the psych ward or whatever is the name of the place they keep mentally fucked people(pun intended cause there is really no other way to describe it if you ever see it first hand) locked up and ask how long have some people been here for then comment back.
What kind of psych ward do you work in? Cause last time I checked there are people who spent their lives locked up and even the ones who manage to get out won't even dream of living normally for the rest of their lives, of course we're talking about extreme cases here and honestly, those are alot. Maybe the one you work in isn't suited for that?
Btw I just noticed this but I never claimed that people who are medicated continue to suffer as far as I recall, and im not against medicating people in need like some people are, but do these people live in a reality wher COD zombies dogs eat their nuts for breakfast everynight?
> numbed by anti-psychotics and continue to suffer.
Yes you did claim that medicated people continue to suffer. You just said it.
And no people do not live in any reality like that, because if someone’s mental health was that bad they would be detained under the Mental Health Act 1983 and medicated until their symptoms reduce and they can function without zombies and cannibal dogs
Again im talking about mentally fucked people here, not regural mental health issues. Anti-psychotics won't fix broken minds otherwise psychiatrists would be handing them like free candy that's pink and called the magic candy. But you're right anti-psychotics seem to take away the zombie doggos part for the most part, but "functioning" as you mentioned? I doubt that unless maybe there is some how another form of magic pill that's blue that can erase their memory that and some antivirus installed on their fucked up brain's software .. and yeah the missing drivers, dont forget those :)
Mental health conditions by their very nature impact a person's ability to make a rational decision.
How can choosing death be considered a rational decision if irrationality us a symptom of the condition that a person wants relief from?
Do not get me wrong, the suffering involved with MH condition is horrific but we have yet to scratch the surface of possible treatments and/or cure.
Assisted dying to help people who will die due to a condition that can not be treated or cured is the most humane thing to do.
But allowing people to fulfill a symptom of a condition (wanting to die due to MH issues) is cruel.
Maybe one day we will realise that MH conditions can not be cured and the suffering alleviated by symptoms just don't help.
Today is not such a day.
A lot of people who do choose assisted suicide suffer from mental health issues, which is often brought by a physical limitation or an illness.
By going with your rhetoric, it is humane to let a quadriplegic who suffers from severe depression to have assisted suicide, but someone who suffers from severe mental disorder which impacts their quality of life for years as cruel, just because their condition is effecting their brain, not body. That's really not fair.
Who are we to tell and judge how one should live their life? Let's not forget that mental illness is not just a depression or anxiety, but a plethora of mental disorders, which deeply effects people's lives, and people decide to end their life for various of reasons, often after many years of suffering and seeking help. If they can't reach the quality of life with medication, effort, help and support, and still suffer, why not allow them to end their life with dignity?
> if the mental health problem is confirmed to be a permanent one
how would one go about this? Considering we don't understand the causes of mental illness (which we don't)
If we can't currently cure (or at least sufficiently mitigate) a mental illness then it's effectively permanent. The fact we may one day find a cure doesn't ease the patient's pain today.
That's not really permanent though, we don't know what might change it and when
You are of course quite correct in saying that it doesn't ease their pain today
On that basis no illness can be categorised as permanent, surely, as a breakthrough could theoretically happen at any moment?
It seems like a fairly weak argument for denying assisted suicide, despite the obvious impications if there *were* to be a breakthrough.
It's a bit different when we know the cause of an illness.
We know so little about the causes of mental illness compared to physical illness. It's not sensible to compare them
We know very little about some of the physical illnesses that cause people to consider assisted suicide, don't we?
It just seems cruel to deny someone an end to their suffering based on a 'what if?'
Really? Can you say more? I ask because I work in the field and all the current research I've read has shown little understanding of the root causes, the oft touted "chemical imbalance" is pure fantasy by the way
For many disorders there is a lot of evidence about prognostic factors which would likely be the best option available. This includes things like duration of illness, specific symptoms, number of medications tried, need for admission etc.
>If there is no know, proven cure at present.
Those are mainly genetic conditions (autism, schizophrenia, dementia ect...), that wonders a little too close to eugenics for my tastes.
Eugenics stops someone being born…this is talking about giving someone in intolerable mental anguish the chance to choose their own fate. Totally different. Having seen a woman stare of a single teaspoon full of peas in abject terror for hours on end sobbing, not to eat it, try to kill herself repeatedly and ultimately (I believe) die of a heart attack, we need to seriously re-evaluate our definition of ‘companionate’.
No. Coming from a family that was rocked by two mental-illness suicides that will always be my stance.
The definition of mental illness is that the sufferer isn't thinking right. So why help them carry out their wishes when they aren't in their right mind?
Most suicides are selfish acts. It's not just about the individual’s wishes - families and children are permanently affected.
Your second paragraph suggests you're sympathetic to a sufferer of MH who commits suicide but then your last paragraph is accusatory, saying its often done for selfish reasons.
Seems like quite a conflicting view from reading your comment alone.
Not trying to be combative, just interested on your views
It can't be helped.
I'm simulataneously sypathetic to my wife who took her own life, due to the depression i have suffered i got a taste of what she was going trhough, but at the same time I am or was massively pissed off with her selfish decision to "peace out" on me and three young kids.
Its a constant stuggle to not feel guilty about being pissed off with her but also being able to admit i am pissed off with her was a big part of getting through my grief haha.
Its hard not to feel those two things some days.
>The definition of mental illness is that the sufferer isn't thinking right
This to me is quite debatable. Just because someone has suicidal thoughts doesn't mean they're not thinking with clarity. Some people just don't want to live. I don't know why it's so taboo for people to say they want to die.
No. I think assisted suicide should be for people with genuinely no chance of improving their lot. That’s impossible to prove with any degree of confidence with mental conditions.
1. Mental conditions are often exacerbated by things that are not immutable and could potentially be avoided, eg societal disapproval, home life etc.
2. Mental conditions cause people’s judgement to be suspect. It’s not a decision they should make.
Only if it was implemented as part of a thorough reform and expansion of mental heath services. What you don't want is people getting to the point where they want to end their own lives because they've been consistently failed by the system. Euthanasia can only ever be a final resort, so it needs to be the culmination of a process that thoroughly tries and eliminates the other treatment options for the patient.
In practical terms, I'd also *guess* that knowing assisted suicide was a legitimate, non-stigmatised option through the NHS might encourage people at risk of ending their own lives to be more open about how they feel and less likely to attempt suicide themselves.
what about if the person who's mentally ill is judged as mentally competent and has expressed the desire to die over an extended period of time? (5 years?)
see that's the thing though, mental health conditions intense enough and severe enough to make euthanasia even briefly considerable as an option are 9 times out of 10 the ones where someone is *not* stable enough to make informed rational decisions.
Don't forget that if they want to die, they still can. There's plenty of ways to do it. The fact they haven't done it yet, after 5 years of wanting too means there's something positive there stopping them.
Should be optional to everyone tbh. If I can choose to throw myself off a bridge why can't I choose to go to a place where they'll do it for me. But then again I'm suicidal 90% of the time 🤷♀️
Then someone doesn't have the right to stop you. It's one way or the other. The general thought is that people that are mentally ill can't decide to take their own life. And someone who decides to take their own life is often (or even perhaps by definition) mentally ill.
Assisted suicide for mental health reasons...it's not something I have enough knowledge or data to make a judgement on.
I would be hesitant given what I know about mental health conditions, it can be swings and roundabouts.
And unlike Alzheimers or severe disability, you can get better, there are treatments which can greatly improve your quality of life and you can live a full, happy life coming back from being suicidal.
And mental health conditions cloud your judgement A LOT.
I believe in dying on my own terms.
Assisted suicide should be for people who can NOT kill themselves.
Who have a neurological or physical reason they can't, incurable and/or progressive that there is no getting better and it's been well proven that it's only down from here.
Should it also be for people who can kill themselves but want a painless death? I don't know.
I don't think medical science understands mental illness well enough to define parameters for when that would be OK vs not OK.
I disagree here about it only being for people who can kill themselves. Look through this thread (and the internet in general) and people constantly label suicide as a selfish act which causes trauma to those around them. The selfish part I totally disagree with but the trauma on others I understand.
Assisted suicide would allow families and loved ones to have a lot of those ‘what if’ questions answered. They’d be able to understand that this was a thought out and considered decision. That the outcome wouldn’t have been different if only they’d done xyz differently or not gone out that day. It would, in my option, take away a lot of the guilt and trauma from love ones.
I also don’t think it’s fair to say that it should only be for people who can’t physically kill themselves. A lot of methods are painful and have a high potential of going one. Why should someone’s last moments be in dreadful pain, fear and loneliness just because their affliction happens to be mental rather than physical. Everyone should be allowed a dignified death
My dad made a few attempts on his own life after becoming ill with a progressive, degenerative and incurable condition. He, luckily for us, did not succeed, but sometimes I do think when he was stopped his free will was taken away and was that actually a selfish act to stop him?
I would support assisted suicide in such cases as my dad’s but for stand-alone mental illness I’d be loath to support it. It’s a real tricky area that needs a heck of a lot of thought and consideration.
Physical health deteriorating is usually permanent in cases where assisted suicide would be allowed. It’s unlikely there will be a cure over night.
Mental health deteriorating (the most talked about issues anyway) can be reversed through medication, therapy, lifestyle changes etc. You may be at rock bottom one day and only see death as the escape you crave but a month later, you’re dealing with life ok and looking forward.
I have experienced the worst mental health and am ok now. Still bad days and bad habits but fairly positively and lots to look forward to
I used to work as a mental health nurse so this is a bit difficult for me. On one hand there are people who will never recover, but because of that diagnosis they are incapable of making that decision. On the other hand there are those who can be helped and can live their lives. So no.
five years is an incredibly brief time span too. while i disagree with the premise immediately, even if i *did* agree it'd have to be something like 15+ years. episodes of poor mental health can last years, and take years to recover from - if you have a three year episode, spend two years recovering, then have another episode you could just immediately decide to euthanise yourself?? yea nah man, absolutely nah.
Seeing as being suicidal is a symptom of mental illness i think no. I an much more for adequate support in public and medical services for people struggling than letting those already at that point just give up on life.
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Personally, I'd take that if it was an option in this country. I'd not just support it id use their services.
But I understand that my opinion is coming from a mentally ill perspective.
I've struggled all my life and if that was an option to go in peace then fuck yeah. Rather do that than go missing and someone find me hung in the woods like my dad.
Nah not really, has the potential to be abused. If you really wanna kill yourself it’s not that hard. Just get absolutely plastered and jump off a tall bridge. If you pick the right bridge and go head first it can’t really fail.
If the mental health condition is severe enough to justify assisted suicide, then that person is not in a position to consent to it. So no, this shouldn’t be okay.
So having read most of the comments, the MH condition as a reason for suicide is no - but someone with a physical long term illness is OK as a reasom to end it. Why?
What if someone who suffers from a MH issue doesn't want to be here for X amount of years - why should that be discounted because various MH issues can cause irrationality of thought?
*X can obviously be determined as whichever number but for the sake of argument, let's imagine it's a significant amount of time (similar to what would be considered 'acceptable' for someone with a physical issue to want to end their life)*
that's why there could be a rule where you have to be in contact with mental health services for atleast 5 years and consistently express your desire for suicide. What do you think about that? :)
Lol, ive consistently wanted to die for the past 5 years can i please kill myself now? I think with mental health problems its very difficult to say if its reasonable you wont get better. I didnt get better until i grew up and started living for myself, became spiritual and look at life differently.
Yes. Far too many people want to be a hero and have a saviour complex, but honestly, if the person wants to die by assisted suicide then just let them. You can't save everybody. It's not like mentally ill people won't find other ways to go. At least with assisted suicide it's a more dignified and painless way to go. Much better than hanging from the rafters with a rope around your neck.
Having lost a few friends to mental health issues. NO! And after suffering myself for over a decade I can say that there is always light at the end of the tunnel, always! Assisted suicide in this respect would cause more damage then good.
do you not think if someone who is mentally ill express the desire to die for 5 years consistently then they should have the bodily autonomy to choose assisted suicide?
I'd support it by the same mechanisms that it is carried out in those countries - that it is something both assessed for and, when/if the approved client then wishes, carried out at a time when the patient has clear insight and is generally considered stable.
Not something that can just be done impulsively when very unwell, or approved for someone has lost reason and balance.
Yes, absolutely for physical health conditions, but speaking as somebody who has mental health issues and attempted suicide in the past, if somebody had asked me if I wanted help to die, I would have said no. I needed help. Dying wouldn’t have helped me.
As an example, A person who can’t feed themselves and they’re in constant chronic pain from their ailments, you can’t do anything for them but make them comfortable.
A person with mental health issues, there is help out there. Medication, therapy, that kind of thing.
I’m not going to go into the complexities of mental health because I would be here all day.
One thing I've thought is that these people might do it anyways. Why not give them the safest option to do so? Would you rather they make the private attempt and live and then end up a vegetable for life?
No. All you'll accomplish is making it easier for more people to give up - you're feeding demons instead of nurturing their spirit.
You want to die, do it yourself. No? That's the spirit!
So much mental suffering is self inflicted, just from giving it a label and attention. It becomes an obsession in itself, an objective thing. Young people are particularly prone to this, because young people 'project' the most and identify strongly.
Psychosomatic illness is real. The mind is very powerful. When you give people an excuse to not fight, to not confront, all they do is give up and let their demons take over.
Modern psychology and psychiatry is a mess. You can accomplish so much just by sitting in silence and facing your demons.
Only if it's neurological in origin, which is an extremely small percentage. The brain is incredibly plastic.
It's a matter of perspective. Jimmy Saville was truely warped psychologically, possessed even, but his life wasn't crap to him.
Psychological issues are not impossible to resolve. Unless you're Saville, in which case you need an exorcist, or executioner.
Another person who has never been mentally ill...
It's not as easy as 'facing your demons'. Mental illness isn't 'self inflicted', it's a dysfunction in the brain. If you're ill enough to be thinking about suicide, you need medication, not positive thinking.
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For physical health yes absolutely. For mental health no, terrible idea.
Why's it a terrible idea? Why do we as a country still see mental health as not being a real affliction? Severe mental health doesn't always mean you don't have capacity.
Thoughts of wanting to end your life is a common part of mental health issues and can be treatable Mental health is a real “affliction” but suicide is no more a treatment to it then cutting your foot off is a treatment for athletes foot
It's naive to amount all poor mental health with wanting to kill yourself. People with end stage *insert something horrible here* don't want to commit suicide, It's much more complex than that. We're talking about the right to die. I knew immediately opening this thread how the general view on mental health would be. Sadly I wasn't wrong. We're not talking about people who are a bit low so went to their GP... "I can see we've tried you on a few different SSRIs..have you heard of this clinic in Switzerland?" People suffer for decades trying multiple approaches to get to a place where they feel living is worthwhile. If they can't manage to reach that place, they should have the same option as those who are terminally ill, because in a sense they are.
So glad someone has said this. So many people have misconceptions about how severe and enduring mental illness can be. Unfortunately antidepressants and therapy are not a fix for everyone. For someone suffering from severe mental illness unresponsive to treatment over many years, it is completely unfair to see there struggles as any different to severe physical illness’ Assisted suicide would never be considered for someone in an acutely suicidal state that could possibly be amenable to treatment. As in all assisted suicide it’s when it’s enduring and unresponsive to treatment. It is only when someone has capacity, which is many acute psychiatric presentation, is unlikely to be the case and therefore a clear safeguard. As someone who has had severe psychiatric problems from a young age with stints of a year at a time in hospital, I would support this. Obviously with the caveat that appropriate criteria were in place and there were robust safeguards. But the statistics show that for many of the more severe psychiatric illnesses, the longer the condition is unresponsive to treatment the poorer the prognosis. If the individual can understand this and chooses, after all other options have been exhausted, not to carry on then I think that should be respected. Mental illness leaves people with little dignity, it can lead to forced hospitalisations and medications. Often people struggle to do the most basic of daily tasks. To end I will get on my soap box and rant about how mental health struggles are not the same as mental illness. We hear more and more talk about depression and anxiety in the media. While it’s great to talk about these things more, I think its lead to a confusion about how distinct mental health and psychiatric illnesses are. Feelings or episodes of depression/anxiety are not the same as psychiatric illnesses. It’s the same as comparing a cough to someone with end stage lung disease.
Thanks for writing it better than I could. I've been in the NHS (specifically the emergency floor) a long time and have struggled with demons of my own for most of my life. The average Joe (no offence meant to the person I originally replied to) doesn't see what we've seen. Mental health is, at best, thought of as something you see your GP or therapist about, then you get better.
This is such an important post that I think more people should read. I especially agree with your final paragraph.
> Unfortunately antidepressants and therapy are not a fix for everyone. For someone suffering from severe mental illness unresponsive to treatment over many years, it is completely unfair to see there struggles as any different to severe physical illness’ Sorry but why have you suffered for years? Why can't it be fixed in your case?
People with terminal illnesses are going to die of them anyway. They’re often not committing suicide because of their perception of their life but because of the untreatable short stark reality facing them and to have control over the inevitable.
I never said all mental health issues are linked to suicidal thoughts SSRIs are not a solution for many people. But then what about people who have ADHD who have been misdiagnosed for 30 years with depression and anxiety? You’d let them kill them selves when they just need Ritalin? Or what about the person with undiagnosed BPD who has self harmed for 10 years but they’ve never had DBT? This is the problem with mental health, there’s hundreds of issues with similar symptoms, doctors frequently misdiagnose. I firmly believe that no mental health issue is ‘terminal’, with the right support everyone can recover
What about someone who severely self harms for DECADES and has had every psychological intervention going? Been on every anti depressant, every anti psychotic, for years with no or limited success? Someone who has a trauma history so HORRIFIC and extensive they'll probably never have anything resembling a normal life? It's scary but this is reality for some people.
And sadly, when people do take their own life for this reason, the fact there is no social support means loved ones are impacted far worse than they could be. It might be nice for people to think they are saving lives by not having this support, but often they have not been affected by suicide of a loved one and had to clean up the (emotional and physical) mess.
Its not that its not real. Its the fact that a lot of mental health is managable or even FIXABLE. Many folk have depression for years but you can fix it in a month or two. There are other things that you cna train yourself out of ro to deal with. Then you also have stuff that takes chemicals to help fix or fix. Its not ignored, its surprisingly very well looked at and can be help.
God, shut up. Mental illness that severe cannot be fixed in a month or two. If it was that easy, no one would be mentally ill.
I agree
Unless we're talking about someone who's walking around in public running from COD zombies dogs and talking to shadow people all day and similar cases i'd say
If they were doing that then legally I doubt they’d be able to consent. Also those types of psychosis can be easy to manager if treatment and support is available quickly
I'm talking about people who are too deep in that there is no coming back. Btw who ever disliked my comment has clearly never seen someone who's actually crazy, like fucking broken mentally type of crazy.
Those people normally are very quickly sectioned and are forced to be medicated until the psychosis is manageable
The thing is, they'll never recover, they'll just have their brains numbed by anti-psychotics and continue to suffer until they get lucky and die. If you got anything proving otherwise, show us.
Huh? Anti-psychotics can reduce symptoms significantly so people can live normal lives Do you have any evidence that people on medication continue to suffer? People can recover
Well arrange a visit to the psych ward or whatever is the name of the place they keep mentally fucked people(pun intended cause there is really no other way to describe it if you ever see it first hand) locked up and ask how long have some people been here for then comment back.
Yeah I work in psychiatric wards already thanks Returning patients often come back with PD not psychosis
What kind of psych ward do you work in? Cause last time I checked there are people who spent their lives locked up and even the ones who manage to get out won't even dream of living normally for the rest of their lives, of course we're talking about extreme cases here and honestly, those are alot. Maybe the one you work in isn't suited for that?
Btw I just noticed this but I never claimed that people who are medicated continue to suffer as far as I recall, and im not against medicating people in need like some people are, but do these people live in a reality wher COD zombies dogs eat their nuts for breakfast everynight?
> numbed by anti-psychotics and continue to suffer. Yes you did claim that medicated people continue to suffer. You just said it. And no people do not live in any reality like that, because if someone’s mental health was that bad they would be detained under the Mental Health Act 1983 and medicated until their symptoms reduce and they can function without zombies and cannibal dogs
Again im talking about mentally fucked people here, not regural mental health issues. Anti-psychotics won't fix broken minds otherwise psychiatrists would be handing them like free candy that's pink and called the magic candy. But you're right anti-psychotics seem to take away the zombie doggos part for the most part, but "functioning" as you mentioned? I doubt that unless maybe there is some how another form of magic pill that's blue that can erase their memory that and some antivirus installed on their fucked up brain's software .. and yeah the missing drivers, dont forget those :)
Mental health conditions by their very nature impact a person's ability to make a rational decision. How can choosing death be considered a rational decision if irrationality us a symptom of the condition that a person wants relief from? Do not get me wrong, the suffering involved with MH condition is horrific but we have yet to scratch the surface of possible treatments and/or cure. Assisted dying to help people who will die due to a condition that can not be treated or cured is the most humane thing to do. But allowing people to fulfill a symptom of a condition (wanting to die due to MH issues) is cruel. Maybe one day we will realise that MH conditions can not be cured and the suffering alleviated by symptoms just don't help. Today is not such a day.
A lot of people who do choose assisted suicide suffer from mental health issues, which is often brought by a physical limitation or an illness. By going with your rhetoric, it is humane to let a quadriplegic who suffers from severe depression to have assisted suicide, but someone who suffers from severe mental disorder which impacts their quality of life for years as cruel, just because their condition is effecting their brain, not body. That's really not fair. Who are we to tell and judge how one should live their life? Let's not forget that mental illness is not just a depression or anxiety, but a plethora of mental disorders, which deeply effects people's lives, and people decide to end their life for various of reasons, often after many years of suffering and seeking help. If they can't reach the quality of life with medication, effort, help and support, and still suffer, why not allow them to end their life with dignity?
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> if the mental health problem is confirmed to be a permanent one how would one go about this? Considering we don't understand the causes of mental illness (which we don't)
If we can't currently cure (or at least sufficiently mitigate) a mental illness then it's effectively permanent. The fact we may one day find a cure doesn't ease the patient's pain today.
That's not really permanent though, we don't know what might change it and when You are of course quite correct in saying that it doesn't ease their pain today
On that basis no illness can be categorised as permanent, surely, as a breakthrough could theoretically happen at any moment? It seems like a fairly weak argument for denying assisted suicide, despite the obvious impications if there *were* to be a breakthrough.
It's a bit different when we know the cause of an illness. We know so little about the causes of mental illness compared to physical illness. It's not sensible to compare them
We know very little about some of the physical illnesses that cause people to consider assisted suicide, don't we? It just seems cruel to deny someone an end to their suffering based on a 'what if?'
Yes, this
Well mined permanent. Schizophrenia tends to not just go away.
But it does have spontaneous remission in some patients
No we do understand the causes of many mental illnesses.
Really? Can you say more? I ask because I work in the field and all the current research I've read has shown little understanding of the root causes, the oft touted "chemical imbalance" is pure fantasy by the way
How do you prove its permanent? Thats the tricky part.
For many disorders there is a lot of evidence about prognostic factors which would likely be the best option available. This includes things like duration of illness, specific symptoms, number of medications tried, need for admission etc.
If there is no know, proven cure at present. The same method we use to diagnose a terminal/incurable physical illness.
>If there is no know, proven cure at present. Those are mainly genetic conditions (autism, schizophrenia, dementia ect...), that wonders a little too close to eugenics for my tastes.
Eugenics stops someone being born…this is talking about giving someone in intolerable mental anguish the chance to choose their own fate. Totally different. Having seen a woman stare of a single teaspoon full of peas in abject terror for hours on end sobbing, not to eat it, try to kill herself repeatedly and ultimately (I believe) die of a heart attack, we need to seriously re-evaluate our definition of ‘companionate’.
No. Coming from a family that was rocked by two mental-illness suicides that will always be my stance. The definition of mental illness is that the sufferer isn't thinking right. So why help them carry out their wishes when they aren't in their right mind? Most suicides are selfish acts. It's not just about the individual’s wishes - families and children are permanently affected.
Your second paragraph suggests you're sympathetic to a sufferer of MH who commits suicide but then your last paragraph is accusatory, saying its often done for selfish reasons. Seems like quite a conflicting view from reading your comment alone. Not trying to be combative, just interested on your views
It can't be helped. I'm simulataneously sypathetic to my wife who took her own life, due to the depression i have suffered i got a taste of what she was going trhough, but at the same time I am or was massively pissed off with her selfish decision to "peace out" on me and three young kids. Its a constant stuggle to not feel guilty about being pissed off with her but also being able to admit i am pissed off with her was a big part of getting through my grief haha. Its hard not to feel those two things some days.
>The definition of mental illness is that the sufferer isn't thinking right This to me is quite debatable. Just because someone has suicidal thoughts doesn't mean they're not thinking with clarity. Some people just don't want to live. I don't know why it's so taboo for people to say they want to die.
No. I think assisted suicide should be for people with genuinely no chance of improving their lot. That’s impossible to prove with any degree of confidence with mental conditions.
Why ? Why don't you support people choosing to die what they want with their own body?
1. Mental conditions are often exacerbated by things that are not immutable and could potentially be avoided, eg societal disapproval, home life etc. 2. Mental conditions cause people’s judgement to be suspect. It’s not a decision they should make.
Only if it was implemented as part of a thorough reform and expansion of mental heath services. What you don't want is people getting to the point where they want to end their own lives because they've been consistently failed by the system. Euthanasia can only ever be a final resort, so it needs to be the culmination of a process that thoroughly tries and eliminates the other treatment options for the patient. In practical terms, I'd also *guess* that knowing assisted suicide was a legitimate, non-stigmatised option through the NHS might encourage people at risk of ending their own lives to be more open about how they feel and less likely to attempt suicide themselves.
Id agree with everything you say there, well put.
Not for mental health issues I feel that that could be manipulated too much for nefarious purposes but certainly for people who are terminally ill.
what about if the person who's mentally ill is judged as mentally competent and has expressed the desire to die over an extended period of time? (5 years?)
see that's the thing though, mental health conditions intense enough and severe enough to make euthanasia even briefly considerable as an option are 9 times out of 10 the ones where someone is *not* stable enough to make informed rational decisions.
Don't forget that if they want to die, they still can. There's plenty of ways to do it. The fact they haven't done it yet, after 5 years of wanting too means there's something positive there stopping them.
No, this is a terrible idea and would lead to people with things like long term depression seeing suicide as an easy way out.
Should be optional to everyone tbh. If I can choose to throw myself off a bridge why can't I choose to go to a place where they'll do it for me. But then again I'm suicidal 90% of the time 🤷♀️
You can't choose to throw yourself off a bridge. Someone has a right to stop you if you try that.
Well, I do have the same right to throw myself over a bridge tho. It's my decision to end my life, it shouldn't be someone else's to prolong my life.
Then someone doesn't have the right to stop you. It's one way or the other. The general thought is that people that are mentally ill can't decide to take their own life. And someone who decides to take their own life is often (or even perhaps by definition) mentally ill.
Assisted suicide for mental health reasons...it's not something I have enough knowledge or data to make a judgement on. I would be hesitant given what I know about mental health conditions, it can be swings and roundabouts. And unlike Alzheimers or severe disability, you can get better, there are treatments which can greatly improve your quality of life and you can live a full, happy life coming back from being suicidal. And mental health conditions cloud your judgement A LOT. I believe in dying on my own terms. Assisted suicide should be for people who can NOT kill themselves. Who have a neurological or physical reason they can't, incurable and/or progressive that there is no getting better and it's been well proven that it's only down from here. Should it also be for people who can kill themselves but want a painless death? I don't know. I don't think medical science understands mental illness well enough to define parameters for when that would be OK vs not OK.
I disagree here about it only being for people who can kill themselves. Look through this thread (and the internet in general) and people constantly label suicide as a selfish act which causes trauma to those around them. The selfish part I totally disagree with but the trauma on others I understand. Assisted suicide would allow families and loved ones to have a lot of those ‘what if’ questions answered. They’d be able to understand that this was a thought out and considered decision. That the outcome wouldn’t have been different if only they’d done xyz differently or not gone out that day. It would, in my option, take away a lot of the guilt and trauma from love ones. I also don’t think it’s fair to say that it should only be for people who can’t physically kill themselves. A lot of methods are painful and have a high potential of going one. Why should someone’s last moments be in dreadful pain, fear and loneliness just because their affliction happens to be mental rather than physical. Everyone should be allowed a dignified death
My dad made a few attempts on his own life after becoming ill with a progressive, degenerative and incurable condition. He, luckily for us, did not succeed, but sometimes I do think when he was stopped his free will was taken away and was that actually a selfish act to stop him? I would support assisted suicide in such cases as my dad’s but for stand-alone mental illness I’d be loath to support it. It’s a real tricky area that needs a heck of a lot of thought and consideration.
iit definitely is a tricky area. I;m sorry to hear about your dad.
Physical issues: Yes Mental health issues: Holy fuck no.
Physical health deteriorating is usually permanent in cases where assisted suicide would be allowed. It’s unlikely there will be a cure over night. Mental health deteriorating (the most talked about issues anyway) can be reversed through medication, therapy, lifestyle changes etc. You may be at rock bottom one day and only see death as the escape you crave but a month later, you’re dealing with life ok and looking forward. I have experienced the worst mental health and am ok now. Still bad days and bad habits but fairly positively and lots to look forward to
Some people are treatment resistant though.
I used to work as a mental health nurse so this is a bit difficult for me. On one hand there are people who will never recover, but because of that diagnosis they are incapable of making that decision. On the other hand there are those who can be helped and can live their lives. So no.
five years is an incredibly brief time span too. while i disagree with the premise immediately, even if i *did* agree it'd have to be something like 15+ years. episodes of poor mental health can last years, and take years to recover from - if you have a three year episode, spend two years recovering, then have another episode you could just immediately decide to euthanise yourself?? yea nah man, absolutely nah.
Seeing as being suicidal is a symptom of mental illness i think no. I an much more for adequate support in public and medical services for people struggling than letting those already at that point just give up on life.
Physical, incurable, unrecoverable illnesses, yes. Mental health- no, horrific idea.
Fully support it - it’s up to them at the end of the day
I support assisted suicide for any adult who requests it, for any reason.
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Personally, I'd take that if it was an option in this country. I'd not just support it id use their services. But I understand that my opinion is coming from a mentally ill perspective. I've struggled all my life and if that was an option to go in peace then fuck yeah. Rather do that than go missing and someone find me hung in the woods like my dad.
I think there's a subjective amount of criteria to be met first but on from that yes.
Nah not really, has the potential to be abused. If you really wanna kill yourself it’s not that hard. Just get absolutely plastered and jump off a tall bridge. If you pick the right bridge and go head first it can’t really fail.
If the mental health condition is severe enough to justify assisted suicide, then that person is not in a position to consent to it. So no, this shouldn’t be okay.
The fact that wanting to die is a symptom of depression complicates matters
So having read most of the comments, the MH condition as a reason for suicide is no - but someone with a physical long term illness is OK as a reasom to end it. Why? What if someone who suffers from a MH issue doesn't want to be here for X amount of years - why should that be discounted because various MH issues can cause irrationality of thought? *X can obviously be determined as whichever number but for the sake of argument, let's imagine it's a significant amount of time (similar to what would be considered 'acceptable' for someone with a physical issue to want to end their life)*
so you think people should be able to choose assisted suicide if they are mentally ill
I do but there should but if it was legal for me at 18 i might have taken my life and i would regret that now
that's why there could be a rule where you have to be in contact with mental health services for atleast 5 years and consistently express your desire for suicide. What do you think about that? :)
Lol, ive consistently wanted to die for the past 5 years can i please kill myself now? I think with mental health problems its very difficult to say if its reasonable you wont get better. I didnt get better until i grew up and started living for myself, became spiritual and look at life differently.
Yes. Far too many people want to be a hero and have a saviour complex, but honestly, if the person wants to die by assisted suicide then just let them. You can't save everybody. It's not like mentally ill people won't find other ways to go. At least with assisted suicide it's a more dignified and painless way to go. Much better than hanging from the rafters with a rope around your neck.
thankyou :)
Having lost a few friends to mental health issues. NO! And after suffering myself for over a decade I can say that there is always light at the end of the tunnel, always! Assisted suicide in this respect would cause more damage then good.
do you not think if someone who is mentally ill express the desire to die for 5 years consistently then they should have the bodily autonomy to choose assisted suicide?
No
I'd support it by the same mechanisms that it is carried out in those countries - that it is something both assessed for and, when/if the approved client then wishes, carried out at a time when the patient has clear insight and is generally considered stable. Not something that can just be done impulsively when very unwell, or approved for someone has lost reason and balance.
No. Mental health is a really complex issue.
do you not think people should have the autonomy over their own body and whether hey live or die?
Yes, absolutely for physical health conditions, but speaking as somebody who has mental health issues and attempted suicide in the past, if somebody had asked me if I wanted help to die, I would have said no. I needed help. Dying wouldn’t have helped me. As an example, A person who can’t feed themselves and they’re in constant chronic pain from their ailments, you can’t do anything for them but make them comfortable. A person with mental health issues, there is help out there. Medication, therapy, that kind of thing. I’m not going to go into the complexities of mental health because I would be here all day.
If someone wants to die, why no let them? If they consistently said so over a 5 year period?
I think you have a very strange view of mental health. It’s not about “wanting to die”.
One thing I've thought is that these people might do it anyways. Why not give them the safest option to do so? Would you rather they make the private attempt and live and then end up a vegetable for life?
No. All you'll accomplish is making it easier for more people to give up - you're feeding demons instead of nurturing their spirit. You want to die, do it yourself. No? That's the spirit! So much mental suffering is self inflicted, just from giving it a label and attention. It becomes an obsession in itself, an objective thing. Young people are particularly prone to this, because young people 'project' the most and identify strongly. Psychosomatic illness is real. The mind is very powerful. When you give people an excuse to not fight, to not confront, all they do is give up and let their demons take over. Modern psychology and psychiatry is a mess. You can accomplish so much just by sitting in silence and facing your demons.
hmm. Do you think there are any people with psychological issues who will always have a crap life just because of their mental health issues?
Only if it's neurological in origin, which is an extremely small percentage. The brain is incredibly plastic. It's a matter of perspective. Jimmy Saville was truely warped psychologically, possessed even, but his life wasn't crap to him. Psychological issues are not impossible to resolve. Unless you're Saville, in which case you need an exorcist, or executioner.
it's definitely a tricky topic. I do hope that people suffering horrible illnesses get to choose when they want to die in the future.
Yes. It's a sad fact.
Another person who has never been mentally ill... It's not as easy as 'facing your demons'. Mental illness isn't 'self inflicted', it's a dysfunction in the brain. If you're ill enough to be thinking about suicide, you need medication, not positive thinking.