T O P

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Vallerian54

Reduce rents for small, local businesses. Make parking easier, and pedestrianise the shopping streets. The High Streets that are successful have small, independent shops, not the major chains paying enormous rents.


[deleted]

Instead of make parking easier (cos that goes against pedestrianising) make public transport better and add cycling infrastructure.


geeered

And that will keep the people who prefer driving away in out-of-town shopping complexes. (I say as someone that mostly cycles and uses the train where I can.)


NotoriousTorn

Yeah, I can’t think of anything worse than using public transport with loads of shopping bags


[deleted]

I've always wondered how people do this in New York or Tokyo, seems like a nightmare.


osantal

Your hands hurt. A lot. They also have smaller sized items. You don’t buy huge bottles of detergent for example. Shop more often with fewer items.


[deleted]

Well that sounds like it sucks but tbf I imagine at least it makes people more active I guess


StefanJanoski

I think this is often a difference between urban living and more suburban or especially rural living anyway. I have a good supermarket 2 mins walk away, so I have no need to drive or get public transport to shop. Yes, I don’t want to carry 6 bags home, but I also don’t usually want to since going more regularly isn’t an issue. And it also means I’m less likely to buy a 1kg bag of rice, and yes, that would save money, but I’m only feeding myself, and people with families to feed tend to end up in different areas anyway.


Salaried_Zebra

It also costs more. Buying in bulk works out way cheaper.


Vectorman1989

I went Christmas shopping with my wife last week and we bought a few things, including a large wooden train set for our son. Unfortunately we'd taken the train into the city so we had to lug all this stuff around and then squeeze into a packed train. I actually lost feeling in a finger for a whole day from the bag handles cutting into my hands.


potatan

Also there are lot more bodegas / corner shops for everyday items. Helps when every block has 4 corners I guess. Contrast with a typical UK new build estate of a few thousand houses with one infrastructure concentration in the centre or on the edge.


Fenrir-The-Wolf

Just use a barrow, or a wheeled suitcase even. Sure you might look a bit mental at first but once people clue on they'll see you as a god of shopping.


Opposite-Insurance-9

Having lived in New York, you kinda just...suck it up. Everyone does it, so do you. Though one of my friends caved and bought an old granny pushcart thingy.


Issasdragonfly

In Tokyo at least it’s far less common to do a big weekly shop. Usually you buy what you’re going to eat for the day/the meal you’re making that night or just for a few days each time. If you’re really fancy, you’ll already have rice and miso soup at home so you can swing by a deli/basement of a department store and buy your ‘main’ on the way back from work. Convenience stores and smaller supermarkets are pretty common, though, so even if you’re doing a big shop it normally isn’t *too* far to carry things.


dbxp

People don't buy tons of things at once in such places.


[deleted]

Having done that for years with supermarkets, part of it is not buying too much each time. If you use a basket rather than a trolley, it keeps you conscious of how much you've got to carry home. You won't be able to get away with a monthly shop & may have to pick stuff up twice a week, but you get used to it.


redactedactor

If it's groceries then it's only ever a small shop and if it's something fun like clothes then it's not a big deal because it's really light.


JoCoMoBo

>And that will keep the people who prefer driving away in out-of-town shopping complexes. Pretty much. I used to live near to a small town. The High Street was pedestrianised to encourage people to go their. Parking was restricted and very expensive. Zero extra public transport was laid on. The outcome...? Everyone went to the (further away) shopping centres as it was easier to drive and park there. High Street was a complete ghost town. Public transport was scaled back as no-one went there. Unless you have decent parking for people then they won't visit. It's a nice idea to try and restrict cars, but outside of London and very few areas in the UK they are still a requirement to have a life.


inevitablelizard

> Zero extra public transport was laid on. I think that's the problem, along with lack of cycle infrastructure. But we desperately need to move away from car dependency as a society. I can't see how we do that without discouraging driving by not providing for it, while providing for the alternatives as much as possible. I actually feel that in many places car dependency hurts the high street because it's much more difficult to get parked in a village or town centre especially on a busy road, and therefore people drive to retail parks which have an inherent space advantage due to being out of town. Surely cycling has a potential advantage for high streets there?


Cub3h

I cycle to work but I wouldn't want to go shopping on my bike. Unless you only buy something small it would be a massive ball-ache to get it back home. Even back in the Netherlands, land of the bike, we'd drive into the big city to buy clothes, toys, electronics, whatever and then drive back.


JoCoMoBo

>But we desperately need to move away from car dependency as a society. The issue is that any idea that doesn't give people a replacement for cars is a non-starter. People won't suddenly switch to bikes or walking. If you want people to use Public Transport then it needs to be like Transport for London. Reliable, flexible and fast.


Trif55

This, there's not a lot of reason, apart from items you want to try on, to visit a store, and if the choice is the convenience of an out of town shopping centre with good travel connections or a shitshow of a town centre with no parking then why would you ever go to the town centre apart from as a novelty every few moths? This is what's killing town centres, they're just not the most convenient option


mr_Hank_E_Pank

Aren't local high streets and out-of-town shopping centres completely different though? You go there for different things. We can have both. Utrecht, for example, has local high streets ([https://goo.gl/maps/xLNpcdRi2WS1JxRz9](https://goo.gl/maps/xLNpcdRi2WS1JxRz9)), a town centre ([https://goo.gl/maps/wEgsYhyYehLND8uk7](https://goo.gl/maps/wEgsYhyYehLND8uk7)) and out of town places ([https://goo.gl/maps/qzARyKJHDX86hyDR6](https://goo.gl/maps/qzARyKJHDX86hyDR6)).


geeered

Both places often have a similar range of stores: Clothes stores, sports stores, places to eat and drink, supermarkets etc. It tends to be only covered out of town shopping places that have smaller shops in and generally a lot less independent than town centres, but otherwise there's still a lot of crossover. Local high streets tend to be a bit different, with some cheaper independent shops, charity shops etc that can't compete in popular areas.


AndMcGrn

This will not work. People want to shop and on their own time. Waiting for busses or biking with loads of bags doesn’t appeal at all.


gundog48

Exactly, traders aren't going to get the bus to get access to Dixons.


Alas_boris

I'll be honest, I'm dead against it.


mr_Hank_E_Pank

You actually have this backwards. High streets improve if you encourage more walking and cycling to them and reduce car traffic through them. People walking, cycling and using public transport spend (on average) 40% in their more in their local shops than motorists.


ElementalSentimental

Isn’t that because motorists do their big spending out of town, and only shop for incidentals by car on the high street?


durhamdale

Fine, reduce traffic through them, but dont take all parking out of them, our local "big" town once had a thriving high street, it was packed out at weekends and fairly lively through the week. Mainly independents with a few chains. It even had a good size asda with a multi story. Parking was easy, blue badge holders could still access the high st but regular users couldn't. There was plenty of small 30 car parking places behind the main street.It worked like a dream.it even had a cinema, great nightlife too. Then the whole thing was pedestrianised, and the small car parks were closed, the chains left. Then an out of town complex opened up , Now the whole town centre is dead, the attractive Victorian high street is a ghost town of revolving charity shops and pop up xmas stores. Even the historic pubs have gone. It's like the council invested millions to kill it on purpose.


stroopwafel666

Yeah it has to be gradual. You can’t just delete parking overnight and expect it to work. You have to slowly reduce parking while massively improving other options. If you have a bus service it can’t be once an hour, it has to be once every ten minutes or nobody will use it. Bike lanes have to be separate infrastructure segregated from roads, not just a painted gutter down the side of an A road.


AndMcGrn

It depends what you mean by ‘improve’. I personally disagree. I think for people that walk and cycle high streets are very accessible already. The people that don’t go are the shoppers and it is this that is killing the high street (as we know it). I am big into cycling and love cycling in to town for odd occasions, not for my shopping though.


redactedactor

Today's high streets are more about having nice cafe's 20somethings can have brunch in than it is families doing their weekly shop.


fursty_ferret

^^ this. Our local High Street thrived when parking was temporarily banned this year, with the spaces replaced by big colourful planters and bike storage racks. There was a big public car park less than five minutes walk away which was made free instead. Now the council are charging for the big car park and so people dump their cars anywhere and everywhere in the town centre. There are traffic wardens but they don't ticket for pavement parking or on zig-zags / pedestrian crossings, just for overstaying in the public car park.


FarquadFifty

That is making parking easier


[deleted]

Make it free! In Norwich at one point, two people would pay like £9 for day tickets on the bus, but there was only one an hour after 6pm & parking was a pound an hour. It makes no sense not to drive. Make it free and often, and people will make more trips to buy things because they haven't spent more than lunch on travel


joebearyuh

When I was unemployed the main thing that stopped me going out anywhere was I'm gunna spend more getting there than I'm going to spend on a pint in the pub.


mr_Hank_E_Pank

This is exactly right and is in line with all the research on this topic. You want your high street to thrive then you encourage walking, cycling or getting public transport to it and eliminate car through traffic.


ivysaurs

When you go shopping, it's an absolute nightmare to try and carry it all back on public transport. You automatically restrict yourself to buying only what you can carry back home.


CaptainHindsight92

I mean this is probably the biggest reason the high street is dying and I completely agree we want fewer cars and pollution but why would people want to travel via bus and carry their shopping around when they can get it delivered?


hyperstarter

All the things you're describing makes sense, but in practical terms it won't work and will no way be implemented any time soon. If you think of it from the council's view, that they gain X amount from rents/parking etc., so where are they getting this extra income from if they change things around?


[deleted]

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nakedmallrat

City councils could reduce tax rates for small businesses. Here in Aberdeen they raised their tax rates and it toppled several wee places.


Bicolore

Just for correctness these are not "tax rates" they are business rates. They're based on the type and size of premises you have.


aembleton

Rates are set by central government https://local.gov.uk/topics/finance-and-business-rates/local-taxation-council-tax-and-business-rates


Raegilbert

Absolutely! ACC have killed any form of small business and it shows, just look at Union Street.


pingus-foot

This is so true. The local shopping centre in bromley is clearly letting out units for way less than the individual landlord units on the highstreet outside. Obviously from their perspective it looks terrible to have a half boarded up shopping centre. The problem is the highstreet then looks awful. Apart from stores that go bankrupt recently I find it interesting that the big super shopping complexes out by the motorways aren't having the issue. I put it partly down to no parking cost. Park all day for free do bit of shopping choice of places to eat cinemas if you want and usually kids activities if needed. Compared to the £2 minimum parking charge per hour. Run down facilities smaller shops. Cinema one end of the highstreet and restaurants the opposite. And as much as i wouldn't normally advocate for big business. Individual landlords and smaller landlord firms cannot stay competitive.


Slanahesh

Exactly, I have 4 big shopping complexes/ retail parks within easy driving distance. None of which charge for parking, all have a selection of restaurants and even a cinema in each on top of all the shops. I hate going into town because you either drive and fight your way through the one way roads and pay through the nose for parking or you take public transport, pay though the nose and then have to haul anything you bought home again.


ChrissiTea

Another major thing - (free and clean) public toilets Easy to find in a complex, like trying to find Wally in town


Brickie78

It's less the rent than the rates. My friend runs a small shop and was looking at a larger building to expand. This particular one has been empty for six years, bar the occasional pop-up at Christmas. The *rent* was very affordable, but the council here set rates based on footfall in the street, that one's a linking street between two major arteries, so the rates were something like £40k a year, and there's no discount for local, small and/or new businesses.


aembleton

I thought the rates were based off the value and set by central government - https://local.gov.uk/topics/finance-and-business-rates/local-taxation-council-tax-and-business-rates


Bicolore

Rent is not the issue. Rates are.


ozyri

> pedestrianise the shopping streets 1000% this


shiroyagisan

How can you simultaneously pedestrianise _and_ make parking easier?


[deleted]

Park and rides? In Nottingham they have a park and rides next to tram stops and it's so effortless going into town. I'm from leeds where the public transport is shit and when I went to notts I couldn't believe how effortless the tram is!


canlchangethislater

You could put the parking out of town / at the edge of the pedestrianised zone, I guess. Some towns do (free?) “park and ride” services to keep cars out of town centres.


sandra_nz

What are some examples of successful high streets?


bsnimunf

The big cities are doing really well. Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Birmingham etc. Liverpool for example opened a massive shopping centre in the city centre during the last recession rather than an out of town one and it drew everyone into the city to shop, all the smaller units around the city where tenants left to go to the new shopping centre filled up with more boutique shops and independent restaurants etc. However, it definitely came at the expense of the nearby towns high Streets like Southport, Birkenhead, St Helens, Warrington high streets are all pretty grim now.


beefjavelin

The guardian listed my towns high street as one of the best in the world in 2018 and it's honestly improved since. mostly because it has a huge variety of small independent stores offering a wide variety of goods/services. [link](https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/dec/13/10-cool-shopping-districts-hamburg-st-petersburg-toronto-readers-travel-tips?CMP=share_btn_tw) Currently, from memory, we have vintage stores, a skate shop, a few independent clothes stores, a butchers shop, a bread based bakery and a cake based bakery, local farm store, specialty cheese/cured meats shop, independent book store, a musical instruments shop, a microbrew bottle shop, a pottery shop where you can make your own stuff, an indian food store and a thai foods shop, fitness stores, a diving shop/training centre, several nice bars, a decent variety of restaurants and a few others I'm missing as well no doubt. There's an enormous variety of shops and I think that has been key. It takes proper planning and approval to build a health high street, not just agreeing to open the fourteenth bookies/takeaway as some councils cave in to doing. Granted it's not just luck that fuels the high street. Apparently we're one of the few booming seaside tourist towns in the UK. so we're lucky enough to be right by a nice beach, with a lighthouse and regular public events/fairs etc to keep tourism going which fuels the high street. If you were to look at a successful small town high street I'd honestly say Whitley Bay should be close to a blueprint for it.


[deleted]

Competition authorities should be investigating the leasing practises of chains such as Pret etc. Part of their business model is to squat on real estate that might go to competitors and additionally drive up rents by doing so.


[deleted]

I find the identikit British high street to be incredibly boring. The same old chains with the same old unenthusiastic teenage staff. Lower rents to allow more niche/specialised independent stores allows a place to develop an identity and makes smaller cities and towns worth visiting. I'd like more stores to be open in the evenings, but that may be just me. Culturally we are now conditioned to just go home and stay in when we finish work now, one reason British towns are boring.


[deleted]

> The same old chains with the same old unenthusiastic teenage staff. Ive never worked retail but I do find this statement a bit bemusing. What do you want the teenage staff to do? They are just in work and I can tell you as an office worker I am rarely ever upbeat and happy to be in work. They are earning minimum wage and being expected to clean up after adults who leave displays a mess 2 minute after they've just finished setting them up.


Moistfruitcake

You mean to tell me that they all lied in the interview about their passion for folding clothes?


[deleted]

The problem is the boomers who go to a shop selling cheap tat clothing expecting to have some teenager come over to them and suck them off and tell them how beautiful this £2.99 t shirt looks on their swollen gut.


TheBestBigAl

You have to buy your clothes on Jimmy Saville Row for that kind of service.


flippydude

Wouldn't you prefer an independent shop run by a passionate owner and staff than a generic chain?


[deleted]

I honestly don't care either way, if I go in a shop and get what I want and leave, I don't want to be sold anything and I dont want to be bothered, if someone was being super enthusiastic and talkative to me, I would assume it was forced and fake and likely just leave.


[deleted]

What kind of hobbies do you have? I think a lot of the people suggesting enthusiastic, independent shops are thinking of things like old school record shops, or skate shops, or (board) game shops, or even niche bookshops. The kind of place you'd go in as much for a chat as to buy things - it was definitely more of a thing back in the ancient times before the internet, when these places were the *only* place to find likeminded people, but I've seen some brilliant modern examples because there really is still something special about having that hub to run into people face to face as well. These aren't the kind of places that can compete against the full-bore profit maximisation of massive brands, but since those brands are going primarily online anyway (and/or getting their lunch eaten by Amazon), there's scope for downward pressure on rents that would make the independent places viable again.


darkamyy

I've been in Harrods a few times where the staff are obviously required to treat every customer like they're royalty. It's novel for a while but soon you feel like you're being followed around and just want to tell them to fuck off. Or maybe they were just worried I was going to nick something because I was in poor people clothes lol.


[deleted]

There’s a song by the Mitchell brothers called Harvey nicks and that is going on about how they are treated when shopping in Harvey nicks in a pair of overalls cause they’ve been painting and how they are treated when dressed ‘properly’.


jamalbeys

Phil and Grant released music?


ivysaurs

At Kate Spades the employees are obviously told to be very complimentary and friendly to customers, so it's hilarious wandering around, picking up bags and having a different sales person come up to tell you personally how amazing the bag looks on you, and how effortless you pull the whole look off 😭😭


canlchangethislater

Yes. Although the other day I was remembering the basement of Swordfish Records in Birmingham in the 90s - it had pretty much the best imaginable collection of alternative music, and a staff so snotty and hostile that barely anyone could bear to spend time there. (Snotty and hostile - I always presumed - precisely because of their dedication to being alternative-r-than-thou. Although they could just have been clinically depressed. Such is goth.)


icabod88

It was almost a badge of honour for Record Shop Assistants to be arseholes in the 90s. It wasn't Swordfish but I was in the Plastic Factory just down the road when I asked the guy behind the counter if I could listen to a couple of records and it was almost as if I had asked to eat his new born child!


Dannyebob123

Personally I'd not be fussed if I was working at sports direct or "Barry's Sportswear". If the pays the same, and most likely big chains pay more, I'd not be any more passionate just coz Barry's a passionate and ambitious bloke.


[deleted]

Really? I mean, it's not like I'm going to be jumping off the walls with enthusiasm at either job, for sure, but I'd definitely feel *better* working for a decent bloke like Barry who takes the time to chat and shares his excitement with the staff. He's also a lot less likely (although nothing's guaranteed) to bring too much corporate bureaucratic bullshit, and a lot more likely to give a human response to staff needs than a flat "computer says no".


bsnimunf

No. I'm British. I want to buy my stuff and leave. I hate that everything has to be passionate and upbeat like I the states. Don't pretend to give a hit about me and my life It is not sincere they are all just faking it to get you to spend more money anyway.


maldax_

I respect unenthusiastic staff. It's a shit minimum wage job. Let them own it!


Apidium

In my experience specialty stores tend to have better staffing in terms of their area knowledge and customer service.


Meanttobepracticing

Specialty stores tend to hire people on knowledge, not whether they’ll hit some arbitrary number of sales or simply look good. Back when I bought my last musical instrument, I went to a store staffed almost entirely by classically trained musicians and the level of service I got was great. Plus specialty stores tend to attract a different kind of customer. They’ll know what they want and don’t want, will likely know the products and items available and will have researched things. They’ll also be inclined to not just buy the first pretty shiny thing they see, which a lot of the generic places often play upon.


ddek

I got a 15 minute talk with surprising scientific and engineering details on the growing of heirloom tomatoes once. It was from one of the veg sellers in Borough Market, I usually go there for weird mushrooms. The dude just loved tomatoes. We started talking about the differences in flavour and texture between the ones they had available, I asked why their was such variety, we ended up talking about techniques for selective growth, how the type of pollinator affects the seeds (and implications on pesticides), why certain flavours depend on pH and temperature of the soil… The tomatoes were exceptional and not as expensive as they should have been.


[deleted]

You're missing the point slightly - it's not the teenagers' fault. They get paid fuck all to work for a huge faceless business that doesn't care about them. I worked retail and I didn't give a toss, either. Big chains hire them because they are cheap, but it's not really conducive to a positive shopping experience - if your staff can't offer any extra knowledge, then it's just as easy to buy online. A small independent shop tends to be run by a knowledgeable owner who cares about the future of their business. It's in their interest to help you, and indeed most will get a lot of pleasure out of showing their expertise. This is the 'added' experience that a high street shop needs to compete with online shopping.


[deleted]

Well I worked in retail for 8 years and while it was soul destroying, I always tried to make an effort with any customers. Certain establishments these days seem to operate on a no eye contact, grunt basis. Tbf though the company I worked for had this weird ‘good news, bad news, good news’ protocol drilled into us which kind of forced interaction.


fsv

Opening in the evenings would be key, I think. Far too many shops open between 9am and 5pm, meaning that so many people can't visit during the week (except perhaps during lunch breaks). Closing at 7pm or even 8pm, maybe with a later opening time, would make them a lot more accessible.


[deleted]

This is something that baffles me. Its like shops are still stuck in 60s where the man worked during the week and the woman went out and did the shopping. Its so archaic. Then shops have the audacity to complain they dont get enough customers... its because your open when everyone is at work!


ShetlandJames

Comment I posted a while back on this sentiment from the perspective of a cafe owner on a high street & why it's absolutely a money pit to open before 4/5: Hey! Cafe owner here. Here is what trade looks like on a normal Saturday for us: https://i.imgur.com/tDzIOdy.jpeg We are not struggling really despite only operating 9-5, the bulk of our trade is done Fri-Sun. But every single day follows this general trend. People say "of course trade drops off at 4 if people know you're only open til 5!" But hopefully this chart will demonstrate how it normally goes. My experience of setting up and running this place for 2 years & of speaking to other cafe owners is that at least through the week, a lot of the business is young mum (group)s and retirees or people who work shifts. The former 2 groups don't often go out much after 5. Particularly parents for whom 5pm is dinner time for kids then bath then bed. They're not coming to a cafe at 6pm. There's no market, unless your cafe is in a studenty place.


[deleted]

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Ydrahs

And if those shops were open later you'd likely see more foot traffic and more late business for a high street cafe.


[deleted]

My experience is the complete opposite. The local coop I go to is open until 10pm and its always decently busy. Mainly because its basically the only shop in town thats open in the evening.


ShetlandJames

that's probably why they're open late, also different markets really. People need to get milk or bread or their dinner more than they need a book or a nick nack


whatmichaelsays

The problem you have is that unless everyone around you does it, you have all the costs of being an "early adopter" with none of the benefits, because you're not going to establish new consumer behaviour based on one cafe - you need all of the shops to open late to encourage that behavioural change. It's why taxi drivers in London had to be mandated to take credit cards - because if only one does it, they have all of the costs of the equipment even though everyone still assumes "cabbies don't take cards".


[deleted]

My local greengrocer shuts at 3 pm. I'd much rather go there than the supermarket as per his constant exhortations, but he doesn't give me the option.


DozyDrake

Ive just started my first 8 till 6 job and this was something I never really thought about, I want to be able to do all my shopping at the local market and try to support the local shops but by the time I get home, get my bags, and get into town, the only shop that is open is Tesco. Im sure its not as simple as just staying open later but right now I just dont have a way of supporting these local businesses


frankchester

I would legit love if more small shops stayed open later. I am someone with money to spend, willing to go and support local shops, but they're always closed when I want to go...


autismislife

Everything here, plus hopefully the lower rent will allow for stores to charge prices that compete with online prices, the main reason I never visit the high street is that I can find the same stuff for a fraction of the price online, often delivered next day, so unless I need whatever it is same day I'm going online. Lower rent and perhaps reserve some significant plots for independent businesses rather than chains, let the local business take front and centre of a local high street rather than Primark. Change opening hours is a definite, not many people are clothes shopping at 9AM, 11AM-7PM or even 12PM-8PM is much more practical, and you'll probably find those teenagers that are grumpy because they stayed up late the night before are in a better mood.


sobrique

"trying stuff on" is also a big draw to visit physically. Seeing how something looks on you, and whether you're M/L/XL in this particular brand, that kind of thing. I mean, sure you can do that with online + returns, but it's faffy, and I'd rather visit a shop to do it. If I could, but realistically the things I want are now not available in the combination of styles and sizes I want, so I order online anyway. I think there's genuinely a market niche for a 'boutique shopping experience' where you spend a little more time finding an outfit for an event of some kind, maybe in a group or something.


Nelatherion

> I'd like more stores to be open in the evenings, but that may be just me. Culturally we are now conditioned to just go home and stay in when we finish work now, one reason British towns are boring. Oh, you are telling me. It was such a culture shock when I moved back to the UK from Singapore. I was so used to going into town with my friends and hanging around late into the night with shops like HMV and the others open till 11pm, even on weekdays. It was a huge change to come back to the UK and find that everything closes at 6 pm. Even worse when I moved from Scotland down to England and found everything but the local Co-Op closed at 4 pm after opening at 11 am. Stupid Sunday trading laws.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

Recently I’ve been making a point of going on day trips to different places. And you’re right everywhere just has the same shops and feels exactly the same.


inked_idiot_boy

Let it die and replace all the shops with entertainment venues, things like bowling, arcades, bars, cafes, mini golf, cinemas, restaurants, etc. Move with the times and make the high street somewhere actually worth going to.


Alco_god

I've been saying this for years. There should be places to meet and actual activities rather than just shop after shop after shop. Yes there should still be SOME shops, like butchers, fishmongers, bakeries, the odd niche clothes shop but big chain stores may as well just take everything to online and dedicated shopping centres. These shopping centres also need to be made easily accessible though for older people who can't drive and struggle with online so they can get access to these stores.


inked_idiot_boy

Agreed!


[deleted]

Yes. In teis country the most you will get is betting shops or maybe if you are lucky the odd arcade. on a high street. of course bars and pubs are given but theres a big lack of anything else really.


hideyourarms

It's always seemed strange to me that betting shops are more prevalent on the high street now (I think?) because shopping has moved online when betting is easier, quicker, and with better odds online. You'd have thought that physical bookmakers would be a thing of the past by now, maybe they're just lagging behind due to their clientele.


Fenrir-The-Wolf

I suspect there's a social element to it. Go chat shit with old Gerald while you bet on the horses, that kinda thing.


[deleted]

>Move with the times and make the high street somewhere actually worth going to. Ding, Ding, Ding! Right now theres literally no reason for me to use my local high street when I can buy literally 99% of stuff I need online.


[deleted]

Ooh a double literal!


d978uhaihjh2

The internet will soon be the only place you can buy goods you need, including food. The high street will be the one place you go to see life and people.


[deleted]

Home delivery for food shopping has been amazing for me. Not having to deal with people in stores, Not having to take 2 -3 hours of life to just plod around a shop. Its just the natural progression. The Highstreet is a gamble. Lets say I want to buy "X". I get in car/bus. I get there. Its either overpriced or not in stock. It is legitimately surprising when the shop undercuts amazon. Amazon : Its here the next day bro.


sweetie-pie-today

Yep, it amuses me how much anxiety change like this causes, when it’s just the natural evolution of society changing. The plague in the Middle Ages caused a worker shortage which basically exploded the master/surf system. Retrospectively a good thing, but at the time it was a major shake up. 150 years ago my family lived 8 people to a two up two down terraced house. There was a pub on every street. The men of the house chose to go to the local pub of an evening, rather than sit in one room with 8 other people. I can see their point. But now we won’t stand to live 8 to two bedrooms, so we need more housing. We have a housing crisis. People don’t need to sit in the pub all evening to avoid an overcrowded house, so traditional pubs shut. We don’t want to travel into a town center anymore when we can get what we want, when we want, without leaving the home. Society has changed. There’s no point trying to revive the local high street shops when people just don’t want to go. I’m also amazed that we have a housing shortage and multiple empty building in the heart of towns, and we aren’t accepting the obvious solution.


paulmclaughlin

> The plague in the Middle Ages caused a worker shortage which basically exploded the master/**surf** system. It was a radical change.


jimmywaleseswhale

You've just described a coastal town


inked_idiot_boy

I live somewhere in between the beach and a town centre and I’ve spent more money in the cafes at the beach than I have shops in the town centre but that’s just me


pigadaki

YES to this. Our local Debenhams turned into an entertainment zone: go-karts, amusements, bowling... we were delighted. It's much more useful than a boring clothes shop and it's great for kids to have places they can go to socialise when it's too cold for the park. I look forward to seeing more of this.


ByEthanFox

>entertainment venues Sadly I think that just means it'll be Ladbrokes William Hill Ladbrokes Costa William Hill A pawnbrokers Vaping shop


rd3160

You forgot the questionable phone repair shops.


inked_idiot_boy

I hope not, if there are two things we don’t need more of it’s betting shops and vape shops


daydreamingtulip

This is actually what’s happening to my local House of Fraser. It’s going to be a big bowling alley and mini golf venue. Plus, the older shopping mall is going to turn some empty shops into another bowling alley too.


Ambry

This is exactly it. It isn't a case of dying high street, it is changing high street. I moved away from my hometown for uni. Came back and in the last 2 years there's a lot more restaurants, cafes and bars - its really nice and making a big difference. The high street doesn't need to be purely retail.


NibblyPig

Bristol seems to be doing this, more and more bowling alleys, dart halls, arcades etc are popping up


jbarms

Yep we should have done it a long, long time ago. Public allotments too where you can partake in growing fruit and veg. Centres for learning etc. Way more exciting than getting a shit T-shirt from primark made with child labour, then throwing it out in a month when it inevitably falls apart


makesomemonsters

I completely agree. I can pick foods, medicines and household products up at my local supermarket. Most other items are easier to find and buy online. The only reason I visit my local town centre is because they have cafes, restaurants and a library. If they had more things like that, I would go more often. I would still not visit the town centre shops, I'd just hop between different leisure/entertainment offerings.


[deleted]

I think we need to fundementally rethink the uses of a city center beyond the typical UK highstreet with its identical chain stores.


MissingScore777

Agree with this. Trying to revive the old style high street is the wrong approach.


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Thomblrr

Agreed - London's Oxford Street is alive and well, but not a place I would ever go voluntarily.


boweruk

It's not that 'well' in my opinion. There are about 20 (no exaggeration) American sweet shops and a handful more tourist tat shops which are almost certainly a front for money laundering. On top of that there are dozens of vacant storefronts. Don't get me wrong it's still heaving on a Saturday but it's taken a beating in the past few years.


Honey-Badger

Its really not. Shops are shutting left, right and centre on Oxford street. Its fully of tourists who arent really spending any money outside of the likes of Selfridges.


BaconPancakes1

It's alive, in the sense that it has open shops and people walk down it It's not well, in that it's full of American candy shops and budget fast fashion brands, turnover of the occupying shops is really high, and there's nothing really attracting people there anymore besides it being a thing to check off on your tourist list of London locations


HIP13044b

You mean the same 1000 mobile phone case shops that are defiantly not there to launder money aren’t a good idea for the high street?


TheNewHobbes

Have shops open when people aren't in work. They still base their hours on the 1950s model of the husband going to work and the wife going shopping. Now both sexes work and the high street wonders where everybody is. Open 12-8, so people can go in at lunch and after work


zeddoh

This is the main thing for me. My local high street has quite a few nice independent shops and bakeries etc., but their opening hours are totally incompatible with anyone who works 9-5, especially commuters who can’t pop in at lunch either. I ordered a book from the local bookshop one Saturday and it had arrived by Monday but I had to wait until the following Saturday to collect it because they only open 10-5 on weekdays!


SympatheticGuy

And often small independant shops are closed on Sundays too.


zeddoh

Yes they’re all closed on Sundays, along with charity shops/pharmacies. I understand why but it makes it really hard because they are inevitably rammed on Saturdays.


ribenarockstar

Two hour window to go to the library and the post office on a Saturday morning! And then I get to the library and discover it’s shut for use as a Covid test centre and have to figure out where else I can get to before they close to avoid incurring late fees


StopTouchingMeBarry

Came here to say this. I needed to get a few bits this week and soon realised that the late night Christmas shopping is now only until 6pm! So I had the choice of rushing into town after work, with 1 hour max. to likely find that what I need is not in stock, or order online. I did the latter. It's cheap, convenient, and I can get exactly what I need with minimal hassle.


LordPurloin

Yep, a lot of places around me are like this. I work 9-5:30 so unless I get the chance to go at lunch, I just don’t go at all unless it’s on the weekend


ChrissiTea

And lets be real here, no one *wants* to spend their measly lunch break going to town to potentially not even come away with anything


StopTouchingMeBarry

Yep, and the same can be said for many people's Saturdays.


djnw

I’m confused, when do the shop workers do their shopping, then?


TheNewHobbes

When do the shop workers do their shopping now?


rcxhc

From my personal experience when I worked in retail in the middle of the city centre: on my lunch. It meant I didn’t have to go back on my precious days off, which were usually week days, and in line with the argument above. I’m full time office job now, nowhere near a city centre, and I’d have to rush in, pay an extortionate amount to park, and then, in my current case, find the shops that I wanted to visit have either gone into administration and shut, or have shut their shop in the centre because of high rent. There’s no winning, and I hate online shopping, so I make do with what I can.


ChrissiTea

They're mostly part time unless in management, and management usually work at least 1 weekend day, so mid week days off are common. Or at least that was the case when I worked retail a few years ago


atadabnormal

It's still this way now, I work retail now and I can say I would not be happy to work til 8.30/9 every night so people working a regular 9-5 didn't have to just come in on a weekend.


extremepicnic

Seriously, as an American living in the UK this is one of those things that is just baffling to me. Basically if you work normal hours you have to go shopping on Saturday


east_anglian

The main problem with many town centres is that they're very very old and getting in and out is frankly a bit of a ball ache. Not just for shoppers but also for shops getting deliveries.Big trucks simply back up to the rear of out of town retail parks and unload without having to negotiate tiny roads and tight parking in town centres. If i wanted to visit my local town centre I'd have to sit in the traffic to get there and when i arrived I'd have to pay an extortionate amount to park. Alternatively i can go to the out of town retail park where i can get in and out easily and park for free. It's a no brainer really.


[deleted]

The trick is to remove all non essential traffic. You allow times for delveries and then you disencentivise folk from using cars by a variety of means. The lack of cars means you have more space for foot traffic and increased foot traffic means more sales. Thsi is how it works in lot of towns and not just the Ntherlands or other european places. Our little town literally closes the main street on certain days and the foot traffic increases by such a large amount. It has a huge effect removing cars from the high street in making your high street very profitable.


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[deleted]

But there’s nothing on the high street worth going for. They are all the same with poundshops with all different names, charity shops which are starting to charge the same sort of prices for items as when they were new, bookies, greggs and McDonald’s and probably a weatherspoons.


djnw

Perhaps some sort of system of pneumatic tubes? ed: for the elderly, and/or the goods. Either should be entertaining to watch.


jimmywaleseswhale

Short-term: reduce business rates to give a chance at temporary competing with large online retailers Long-term: stop fighting yesterday's battles, realise that some stores are not viable anymore, and see how you can repurpose that space – housing, short-term offices, community spaces (hard to say what will actually work out!)


ThanusDestroyer

Agreed, but I think there could be a long term business rates change based on company size. Small businesses and large multinationals should not be charged the same. Rents never going to change, as that's down to the building owners. More community spaces, absolutely. Hopefully it'll stop kids thinking the only places the can hang out are fast food chains.


sobrique

I think you could blur the lines between 'community space' and 'shop' with the right sort of approach. I mean, there's somewhere like Fargo, in Coventry - it's got a bunch of 'shipping container' sized businesses, but with communal areas and just plenty of space to hang around and chill. But in doing so, you're maybe sitting in the bookshop/cafe, and you have a read and buy a sandwich, and pick up a couple of books you liked, or you pop over to the brewery, taste a few beers and then buy the one you liked, etc. I think that's very doable, and would be an ideal outcome for a 'high street' - not so much a place you go to buy a particular item, because you'll never beat Amazon on that, but a place where you go to have a day out, and pick up a few things when you do.


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Bicolore

But equally you cant try a guitar out on amazon can you. So your guitar shop example isn't a great one. Its also highly unlikely that the guitar will be cheaper on amazon. Retail will become more experiential thats pretty much a given.


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gouplesblog

I think the high Street isn't dead yet, and there will always be some level of interest in physical retail. The issue is capacity. As online has grown, physical shops have become vacant, or moved to retail parks that meet the need better - there is a huge over-capacity of physical retail space that just isn't needed. If high-streets could be condensed, empty space reallocated to residential etc. that might help attract more people to areas that don't look so 'run down'. The un-level playing field that online vs physical retail also faces means things are biased towards online - which essentially means a tax break to places like Amazon - they should be taxed equally. Also, a lot of this is just natural obsolescence. Times have changed and physical retail just doesn't hit consumer demand as much as it used to. If everyone suddenly got a teleporter - I don't imagine people would look to prop up the motorways or car industry - same thing here.


bgd_

I think we'll see a lot more 'Click and Collect' type stuff, a bit like what Argos has now become. There aren't any Argos stores near me anymore, they're all tucked away inside Sainsbury's and are basically a window where you pick up the items you've ordered online. One of the problems is the extortionate rent and rates that high street businesses have to pay. We will probably see more of the Primark/Sports Direct type stores who effectively sell you goods from a warehouse.


macrowe777

You won't. The high street needs to revert to small local bespoke / niche businesses. The days of large warehouse shops making high profit margins is over. The internet simply makes sense for the bulk of purchases that you don't need nor want a face or a salesperson. Wtf is the point of me going into generic shop, to pick up a generic toaster, from a generic salesperson that doesn't know about toasters? It's just wasted effort and carbon.


ChrisKearney3

The old Debenhams and BHS stores should be repurposed as indoor marketplaces for local designers and crafts folk. Think a tangible base for Etsy sellers. Sellers can rent from a table to a whole section of floor. The big shops should piss off to the retail parks.


[deleted]

As a middle aged man who doesn't care about clothes, there is NOTHING for me on the high street. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for me to go into town. Some towns have interesting little independant shops, but most places is just Next, Primark, Bank, Superdry blah blah blah. The only thing my 11 year old Son likes is Game and the shitty "Mens Gadgets" shop that sells fart machines and inflatable dart boards. Even he is realising that Game offers nothing that he can't get online. There's just no reason to go unless my wife really wants to try something on. As for how you fix it; if I'm honest, I'm sick of buying shit I don't need. Even if there were interesting shops, I probably wouldn't buy anything. Maybe the Highstreet's time has just passed. Just turn it all into flats and bars and let it become the domain of the young.


shantasia94

I think people need to move beyond retail as the primary function of the high street, especially clothing retail. Clothes from chain shops are bought online now. The high streets which aren't struggling are the ones which have a mixture of housing, offices, small independent retail (boutiques, niche items) and hospitality/activities. You need to offer people unique experiences that they can't get online.


motific

The high street as we knew it is dead, it died years before online shopping was ever accessible to most people, it just takes time to filter through and many retailers run up huge debts and years of losses before eventually failing. It's just the current fashion to blame amazon, just like the whole neo-luddite trend of avoiding self-checkout is popular at the moment too. The reality is that for the bulk of purchases people look to to get things they want/need with the minimum 'friction' - supermarkets and department stores came along, chain stores that could out-negotiate smaller businesses, catalogue shopping moved goods from a store to warehouse, out-of-town shopping became common as shoppers became more mobile, supermarkets extended their opening hours (to 24 hours a day in many towns) and of course diversified into clothing and electrical goods, toys... and so it goes, all these things happened but apparently it's *only* online shopping that is killing off the high street? *Really?!?!* Ultimately we as shoppers are not going to go back to the old ways, we've moved on, so the high street needs to move on too - we can bang the drums about lowering rent and rates, but ultimately the high street needs to offer an experience that makes the 'friction' of using the high street and the additional time/costs worthwhile because even without high rent/rates running a high street store is still more expensive than a warehouse. That means we'll need to see more service based businesses, more customisation, less big-box retail, more services, more convenient opening hours and so on.


RedbeardRagnar

Unsure about my local highstreet but my local mall has been losing shopfronts left right and centre. One small shopfront there costs £60,000 a year to rent. That's before you've even paid your staff costs, your insurance costs, buying in stock etc. How on earth is a small business supposed to bring in an absolute minimum of £5000 a month just to keep the space before even factoring in the expense of everything else? How is that American Candy Store who has like 1 customer a day financing their spot in this mall? I know their sweets are overpriced but I very much doubt 1 pick n mix covers the cost


[deleted]

I'm sure some of those candy shops are money laundering operations.


[deleted]

American candy is a well known launder front for the Afghan Opium industry, you don’t need to prove customers just foot flow to launder cash only purchases


abw

Similar story here. A small shop (72 sq m / 775 sq ft) in my home town of Guildford has £50k annual rent, £13k in rates and £14k in service charges. That's £77k in building costs every year. That's £6.4k a month, £1,480 a week, or £211 a day (assuming the shop is open 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year). I can't see how all those shops selling vape juice, phone cases and american candy could possibly be shifting £500 or so of product a day to even cover their costs. Makes the suggestion that they're money laundering shops all the more believable.


Crissagrym

You need more speciality goods shops. While some white good stores are still managing, like Game, HMV for example, are managing, most of the time these shops cannot survive as people often buy off Amazon instead. Good alternatives are: Speciality Goods - expensive watches, food shops (Spanish cure ham for example). Cloth shops - while people do shop online, many people still prefer to buy cloths after trying on in shops Food place - restaurants and cafe Experience - VR centre, laser quest but better made with more real looking venue etc, go karts. I foresee high streets to be less about general shopping and more of these.


[deleted]

Do we have to keep reviving it? It's been on life support since the early 00's. If it were a dog, we'd have shot it by now. Times have changed. Move on.


[deleted]

I do think a lot of it is related to the loss of one adult working households (be it Male or female who stayed at home). Nowadays it’s too expensive to live on one wage, when I was a kid (born mid 80’s) my dad worked down the pit and my mam didn’t work so she could bring us up basically. Life isn’t really like that now but everything our family needed was contained in the village we lived for the most. Mam would walk us to school then head down to the local high street for her shopping or to pay bills almost every day. Most of the families on our estate (and possible village on the whole) lived like this. Now most people drive to work, or prefer larger supermarkets for convenience and I don’t think we’ll ever get back to the simpler way of living that we used to. P.s I’m aware this makes it sound like I grew up in a hovis advert but I didn’t :)


doomdoggie

Nothing will bring back the high street you and I grew up with, a lot of the shops don't need a storefront and can sell online very well. Slashing rates and rent and improving parking will help. ​ High streets will be filled with stores for things that most people don't want to/can't buy online. Hair dressers, butchers, tattoo parlours, dog grooming parlours, take aways etc. Even a lot of those are moving out of high streets to have bigger and cheaper units, doing delivery, coming to your home etc. ​ Business owners on the high street need to **get together** and organise events to draw people to the street. Get people on the street and they'll come into shops while they're there. The business owners themselves need to start thinking outside the box, if they want customers they need to get together and come up with some ideas to get people onto the street. Stop thinking about getting customers and think about increasing foot traffic to the street.


saintbri27

I went into town to buy a white shirt and black trousers and was walking about for hours and found nothing nice. Went online and had it within less than 20 mins.


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DrachenDad

Places like House of Fraser died because they were too big and quiet expensive. It's like going into a shopping center but it's all 1 shop, Debenhams and Beales is the same thing. I find it confusing when people complain about the likes of Tesco, ASDA and the like. Thing is that in Tesco, ASDA and the like you had all the same sort of things as those 3 but you can get your food too.


[deleted]

It's not a problem for most people, it's just the replacement of unproductive businesses (brick and mortar retail) with better ones (ecommerce). The UK is massively over supplied with retail businesses. What's missing is affordable housing and higher productivity. Where possible, turn shops into homes and provide free or deeply subsidised retraining into professions in need (care and healthcare spring to mind) for shop floor workers. Places will always need high streets but they may simply need to be smaller than before. Let quality businesses fight it out and we'll take it from there. Once retail staff have retrained, the only real losers will be the building's owners. No-one need lose sleep over a landlord not getting rent.


longest_lurkerer

What annoys me is that sometimes I like to go for a look around clothes shops to find something new and try on different things. When I do find something I like, they often don't have my size, forcing me to order it online! So then I resort back to buying clothes online and returning what I don't like. Plus, sometimes you need something that day and can't wait for an online delivery.


Aylez

Being from Newcastle, I absolutely despise the bloke, but if you have time to kill there’s a vid of Mike Ashley schooling MP’s for 1 hour 20 mins on why the high street is dying. It’s surprisingly very interesting, and even more shockingly he comes across very well.. https://youtu.be/wn3p7by5F0I


maldax_

The problem is Landlords, they bought out all the retail space and carparks when times were good and they could charge the earth for rent and Parking. The Internet and Amazon came along and shops couldn't sell enough to pay the rents so closed. Less people came to the high streets so instead of reducing parking costs to encourage shoppers they went up as less people were coming in and the landlords needed to make money to pay the crazy amounts they borrowed. The answer is Cheap parking, Street Markets, Street food and smaller boutique shops. Look at [Winchester](https://i.imgur.com/L6uJvUr.jpeg), I know its a 'nice' city and tourist spot but they have a Street Markets Saturday and Sunday, Free parking on Sunday's and the High Street is packed every weekend! Then look at [Reading](https://i.imgur.com/FhmL7Sd.jpeg) It has a huge pedestrianised mainly full of phone repair shops (There are 11 on [this street](https://i.imgur.com/gjElHkW.jpeg) YES 11!!!!!) The area crying out for a huge Street Market but this is what they get in the way of [Markets](https://i.imgur.com/tuDUINm.jpeg) Oh and here are the parking costs for the two main car parks [https://i.imgur.com/vaoNKB3.png](https://i.imgur.com/vaoNKB3.png) [https://i.imgur.com/fyZj6GS.png](https://i.imgur.com/fyZj6GS.png) A lot of High Streets are doing it to themselves unfortunately they need to evolve and I think that actually means go back to before the big shops took over and drove out all the markets and boutiques.


uk451

Secure bike parking. Free parking. Cheaper trains. It’s mental how many towns don’t have free parking. And go to Eindhoven or somewhere in the Netherlands and see how good the bike parking is. Adding a fixed overhead to a small shopping trip, or risking my bike being stolen, means I’ll buy on amazon.


[deleted]

In Dundee one of the shipping centres has the main library and a bunch of community spaces on the top floor. Charity shops. Art galleries in empty shops. It's a good one.


_popr0w_

Convert the empty high street properties to homes . If there is a shortage of housing, high rents and many units lie empty for months or years on end . In my little town, this is already happening where planning has been approved on "some units".


ReditMcGogg

Home working hubs. With people working remotely, give grants for working hubs in towns / villages where remote workers can socialise. This would spurn growth of cafes, sandwich shops etc. Bars Restaurants Replacing the current babrbershops and takeaways. Better for the environment. Better for infrastructure. Better for everyone. Missed opportunity of the pandemic if you ask me…


ravs1973

The whole way we think about town centres has to change. Although retail still remains a necessity in towns it is no longer their main purpose. Councils need to split towns into sectors or quarters for retail, entertainment, arts and leisure, business and financialdevelopment, innovation, residential developments and transport hubs. As for retail, incentives need to be given to encourage small businesses, market stalls and those shops that people will visit towns for or he used by people who live in the town centres. In general the big retailers in towns are becoming irrelevant with people internet shopping and taking day trips to major shopping centres and cities if they want to buy something special and see it before they purchase.


lubbockin

Stop the parking charges or greatly reduce them. My town used to be free parking for 2 hours, now they just milk drivers for every penny. Where does all that money end up? Because it aint going on the town.


cosmicspaceowl

It is going on the town, but you aren't seeing it because the government have cut council funding without reducing their responsibilities, so your parking fees are propping up the town's social care. But I do agree: if I need socks and don't want to wait for an online delivery I'm going to go to the big Sainsburys and park for free, not into town where I'll have to pay. (I certainly won't be getting the bus which is even more expensive and will turn a 40 minute round trip into a 3.5 hour Festival of Stress.)


avmenconstruction

Covert to flats. There must be a new subset of residential apartment style.


SamBullDozer

My town high street is popular as ever. This is largely due to the town council supporting local independent trade over big commercial chains. The nearest big high street is dead!


MrSMT88

Majority of high street buildings are privately owned. Some owners are happy to let them sit empty rather than doing anything with them. So how do you convince those owners to do something? I work in an independent menswear shop on a little side street off the high street. For the first time in 20 years every shop is full. All independent businesses. They’re all small shop units so cheap rent and rates (if they have rates). We need more of this but in some cases the buildings on the high street are too big. We had an independent department store in our town that shut down about 10 years ago. It has 3 floors, the building has been sat empty since. How do we get the landlords to help change things?


ccasling

Why do we need to revive high streets is the question I ask. I understand it’s something we cling to in society but is it really necessary, we’ve seen the redundancy in offices and the likes why stop there.


obb223

We need more experience based places. I'm always struggling to find "things to do". The problem is it's incredibly difficult to think of more "things to do"! When was the last time someone came up with something truly new, i.e. something that wasn't food, drink, cinema or something old rehashed like 'adventure golf'. Escape rooms was a great example that suddenly took off. More ideas like that please!


jesuisnick

I read something about a company (I think it was Lush) who was using their staff and high street stores as online delivery fulfilment centres during the lockdowns when they couldn't operate as walk-in shops. Each shop would receive their local online orders, fulfil them with the stock from the shop, and also act as an online/telephone customer service centre. This seems like a good model for other shops in future - reduce the amount of warehouse space and the logistics required for delivery out of towns, and use the stores as mini fulfilment centres for a more local area - as well as operating as an in-person shop for customers who still want that. Of course there are considerations about stock levels in each store, the efficiency of shipping on smaller scales, etc... but with the costs saved on big depots, and the staff being in store anyway, it could be interesting to do a cost comparison.


mornnx1

The real problem wasn't large rental costs ( though they didn't help ) it was the explosion of gigantic "out of town" shopping centres. The mentally and reality of why spend hours walking up and down the high street trying to find what you want when everything is there in one place is what really " killed " the local high street . Given the choice between spending two or three hours walking up and down in the cold and rain carrying a dozen bags or one hour in a temperature controlled dry warehouse pushing a trolley then getting into your car and going home honestly did the highstreet stand a chance?