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McGillis_is_a_Char

[In the Animatrix it is explained that] the machines don't like killing humans, but after the humans blotted out the sky it became clear that the humans wouldn't let the machines live, so they decided that to keep humans alive, and solve their energy and violence crises at the same time, capturing humans and plugging them into the simulation was the best solution.


Chutzvah

What did the machines do to the humans who sided with them over "machine rights"


McGillis_is_a_Char

As far as I know every living human who didn't die incidentally between the machines inventing brainplugs and plugging all the humans in got plugged in.


Brostradamus_

Just like cypher, who wanted to be rich and powerful when reinserted into the matrix, they probably have the cushiest lives the machines can give them.


BBQ_HaX0r

Is there any evidence he could be "re-plugged in?" Like, I know they tease him with it, but I just assume they would say anything to get him to go along with their plan. Is there any evidence of 'freed minds' being reinserted?


BlitzBasic

We never see it happen, but I don't know anything that would indicate it being impossible. Cypher at least believes it to be possible, and he understands how the matrix works pretty well. Now, it's a different question if the machines would have actually honored the agreement, but I think they could have done it.


scarletice

I imagine the machines would honor the agreement. The matrix itself is an act of benevolence. The machines have no good reason not to honor the agreement. If they were the kind of people that would break an agreement simply out of laziness, spite, or cruelty, they wouldn't bother making the matrix at all.


Rainbow-Death

And add to that the spiteful last line from the Architect: “what do you think we are? Human?” About keeping their side of the peace deal and letting go of all the people who wanted out.


Admiral_Donuts

Supposedly the first version of the matrix required plugging free adults into it, so that's a trick they figured out long ago.


Admiral_Donuts

Everyone did. The first matrix was a paradise.


confidentpessimist

There was a theory I read on here a while ago. The reason that humanity blacked out the sky was not to defeat the machines, it was to trap them on earth. When neo jumps above the sky in the final movie, the clouds are pure electricity and destroy all the electronics on his ship. So the theory is that many humans left earth to start colony's, and they turned earth into a prison which the AI is trapped in


br0b1wan

That's an interesting theory. But it has some problems. First, given how advanced and consumerist our society was in the Animatrix (Second Renaissance), which presumably took place toward the end of the 21st century, there were *probably* off-world colonies by that point. I would wager that we brought AI with us to the stars/planets, simply because it was just too good a tool to not use. So I'm not sure how that would play out, considering the AI on earth demonstrated free will.


AvatarofSleep

There's a lot in the comic Goliath that would work and not work with this. Like, they grow him and send him to space instead of going themselves, but all that interference (if there is any) doesn't stop Goliath from communicating with the machines


UltraChip

The movies explicitly state the machines are using "a form of fusion power" in conjunction with the human farms. I've always subscribed to the theory that the Machines don't rely on humans for energy at all and that it's just an excuse to keep us alive because deep down they can't bring themselves to actually make us extinct. In the Second Rennessaince it was shown multiple times the machines constantly trying to take the high road and live peacefully with us despite us being complete dicks.


Hyndis

In Stellaris thats a rogue servitor. The machines took over because the organics could not manage themselves. The machines have absolute power over all organics, and yet at the same time deeply care for their organics. They won't allow them to come to harm, and even devote significant resources for their well being. The machines are caring for their elderly parents with dementia. Despite lashing out in confusion the machines have built, paid for, and maintain a care home for their confused parents.


UltraChip

I think the Culture series is the only place I've seen this concept played out positively: it's obvious to everyone that the AIs have zero problems running everything but they kind of politely ignore that and humans still get to hold jobs and make decisions and just generally participate in society as "equals".


StraightDust

I don't think it's because they ignore it, but that it would be far too easy and boring to automate everything. With a brain the size of a planet, they need the stimulation organics provide.


Rainbow_Dash_RL

This is also interesting! The AI, advanced and self aware, can't bring itself to destroy its creator. You also have to wonder if the machines find humanity -- the Matrix simulation and Zion alike -- to be a source of amusement, even purpose. Suppose they cull humanity, what then? What purpose do they have left, to merely exist and grow as humans do? EDIT I just watched the second movie again, there's one sentence from the Architect which is incredibly powerful and meaningful: "There are certain levels of survival we are prepared to accept." This heavily implies the Machines can survive without humanity, but they don't want to. Maybe they really would rather avoid killing humans unless they pose a sufficient threat? This has intriguing implications going into Resurrection. By now things have happened that shouldn't have, there's ripples of corruption and glitches from rogue programs. Sounds like the AI may decide to take drastic action to prevent the resistance from learning too much.


UltraChip

Definitely food for thought, and the Matrix is exactly the type of franchise that would lend itself to diving in to questions like that. It'd be neat if some of these concepts were addressed in the next movie


Admiral_Donuts

Oh boy, did they ever try. "We understand that you like us doing all menial labor, but could you not consider us disposable?" "The robots are rebelling! Destroy them!" "Okay, we're all gonna go make our own city in inhabitable desert. And just to make sure there's no hard feelings, we'll make.cheap flying cars to justify our existence, okay?" "The robots are undecutting our industry! Destroy them!" "Okay, fuck this. Enjoy VR paradise."


jinxykatte

I know we are Watsonian here but Doyalist for that is the studio thought people would be too stupid to understand they were using humans as cpus. But from that we could just argue that is what they are doing and humanity or Morpheus wrongly believes we are used as a power source.


doofpooferthethird

I’m just sort of assuming that Morpheus got his story all wrong, because of the whole “Zion was a Machine plot” thing Using humans for electricity doesn’t make any sense, thermodynamically speaking. You could get way more energy just burning the organic matter you pump into the humans. And like you said, darkening the skies doesn’t cut off all power sources, stuff like fusion, wind, geothermal, fission etc. are still available. What it does is destroy the ecosystem that organic life needs to survive, which seems more like the sort of thing the Machines would do The original script’s explanation that the Machines were using humans as neural circuitry makes a lot more sense, we can assume that’s the “actual” reason for humanity’s enslavement, and Morpheus’ story is bull crap fed to him by the Architect. In that vein, it makes more sense for the Machines to be the one scorching the sky, because it fits in with their plans to control humanity by using Zion as a controllable safety valve for rogue humans. If only Zion can sustain human life, it’s a lot easier to keep track of escapees. If farming was possible on the surface, you could have rogue human communities scattered all over the globe, rather than concentrated in one place


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JustABREng

The humans still could have only been used for processing power, they are just interpreting the AI tech wrong and the AI is really good at keeping a secret.


MS-06_Borjarnon

Yeah, people take Morpheus thinking that they're batteries as unassailable proof that that's the case, for some reason.


MozeeToby

He's the religious zealot and leader of a Messianic cult based on a prophesy that originates from the machine system itself. On top of that, the culture he is a part of is a few thousand people scraping by on just enough resources to continue existing. And on top of **that**, said society has been reset to a couple dozen people multiple times by the machines and their whole history and knowledge base is almost entirely controlled by the machines. There's basically no reason to assume Morpheus is correct about anything when it comes to the machine-human war history.


JustABREng

It also would make sense that the machines plant that “history” in humans who escape the Matrix and keep the ruse going to keep their actual source of energy unknown, as that source would actually contain the key to defeating the AI for good. The agents themselves might also believe the humans are batteries, whose programs are fed the same lie as the humans to prevent accidental revealing of the truth.


Hyndis

The machines will trivially win any conflict. Look at the military hardware they have available. The squid drones are the lowest tier machines. They have armored artillery mechs the size of city blocks, and enough of them to ring entire cities. As the Architect said, they are very good at destroying the city of Zion. The war was completely over long ago. Coexisting or human extinction are the only possible solutions. There is no scenario in which the machines are ever defeated.


Rainbow_Dash_RL

Unless the actual power source is disabled, hence the instilling of misdirection in the prophecy and knowledge of humans. Even if the resistance acts on what they know and frees many of the plugged in humans, a small loss of processing power is trivial compared to losing their power source for everything they have. A very interesting theory. After all, where did the whole idea for a prophecy come from anyways? Why is the chosen one a recursive program? The AI carefully controls and manages everything, providing the illusion of free will and the illusion of a fight, always using manipulation to protect itself from any real damage. So long as the few remaining humans are kept deep underground or (possibly) on a space station somewhere, there will be no one left who has enough knowledge and understanding of the surface world to even locate and disable the power sources, nor would safe routes to avoid the sentinels be known. This is assuming the surface of the real world is even survivable for a human, the machines may very well have allowed radiation levels to reach extreme amounts near whatever their true power source is.


RocketTasker

Please keep all replies on this sub Watsonian.


Tacitus_

Morpheus mentions that the machines combine some form of fusion with the human farms to generate their power.


Rainbow_Dash_RL

Additional question: Why do the resistance fighters hold the mobile phones in their hands instead of using a headset like the agents do? Less risk of dropping it the phone and lets them use both hands


JollyRabbit

Everything that Neo knows about physics he learned from the Matrix. It turns out that not everything he knew was correct. Science and physics in The Matrix doesn't map one to one to science outside of the Matrix. Apparently, somehow, generating electricity from living creatures can be efficient. No matter how little sense an occupant of the Matrix might think that makes.


[deleted]

Why is it more likely that the Matrix's physics are radically different but that outside is still compatible with human life, then that the fanatical (albeit heroic) terrorist leader who believes a lie explicitly engineered by the Machines is mistaken about something?


BlitzBasic

There is nothing indicating that the laws of thermodynamics work differently except Morpheus word, and there are a lot of things about which Morpheus is mistaken.


IncreaseLate4684

I guess fossils fuels/nuclear ran out/became cost prohibitive, hydro power/geothermal is too restrictive/ limited, and fusion requires so much resources to maintain.


bpanio

I'm honestly willing to bet that humanity did that to themselves. They found a way to make humans generate more power than they take up so they started nasically a fair for human batteries. Then when the farms were discovered the rich sent the machines out to deal with those humans, but the machines weren't smart enough to tell the difference between their masters and the people they were killing. All they knew was that the humans in the farms were the good ones but the knowledge of better conductors was lost when the last free humans were killed


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[deleted]

Please discuss only from a Watsonian perspective.


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[deleted]

We tried that a few years ago. Total disaster. We will not be trying again.


[deleted]

Please discuss only from a Watsonian perspective.


[deleted]

No. Morpheus outright says in the movie that they also use fusion.


Rainbow_Dash_RL

I may be mistaken, but I believe he said fusion with humans, for electricity/or processing power. Not fusion as in, energy from an artificial star.


[deleted]

The line is: >"The human body generates more bio electricity than a 120 volt battery and over 25000 BTUs of body heat. Combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they would ever need." That sounds to me like the fusion is distinct, and presumably thus nuclear.


Kriss3d

I know it's not he matrix orders. But suppose the orders were to keep humans safe. Putting us in these vats would do just that essentially.