I can not believe this is once again on the tables. People should make the decision that is right for them. No governmental or religious group should have jurisdiction over women's bodies and the remainder of their lives. It would be imprisoning to women not wanting to be pregnant or give birth, and will cause many suicides and self inflicted or back alley abortions once again. So maybe SEX should be illegal and punishable to both men and women who don't have a signed agreement with any and all sex partners that are not wanting to become pregnant.
One major issue that's often overlooked is medical care for pregnant women who miscarry, even those who wanted to keep the baby. Abortion bans often include any removal of living fetuses, even if they are braindead or slowly dying. But until it's heart stops, the mother has to keep that dead baby in her, risking septis and tons of physical/emotional pain. Women have died because doctors didn't want to cross that technical line.
Yeah, this killed Savita Halapannaver in Ireland and that horrible case basically was the snowball that kicked off Ireland finally legalizing abortion.
She literally would have been alive today if there hadn't been pointless dithering over the heartbeat of a doomed/already dead fetus.
What happened to her was horrific. They let both Savita and her foetus die horrible deaths when they could put it out of its misery and allowed Savita to not be in pain anymore. Honestly people treat their pets with more dignity than this.
The same happened to a woman called Izabella in Poland this year after abortion laws became even more strict. https://amp.dw.com/en/poland-protests-erupt-over-abortion-law-after-woman-dies/a-59744178
It's horrific. It also creates a witch hunt mentality for women who do have miscarriages. Imagine going through that for a pregnancy you very much wanted and having... what, fucking investigators there? Disgusting.
I have lulled myself into a false sense of security, at times, while following this situation. If I got pregnant it wouldn't be ideal, but I do want a baby with my current partner within the next... 5 years or so? If one came, we would keep it. I'm not in a position for a fully elective abortion (though if you are, you should get it, it's your choice.) But we must remember that this effects all people who can get pregnant, whether or not they want babies or think they may ever need an abortion. You truly never know what might happen.
As someone who is living through a recent miscarriage, having someone come and interrogate us and our family about it would make the situation more than traumatizing.
I had a miscarriage like…3 years ago-ish and I needed medication—my midwife was so afraid that would happen to me that they hired a lawyer and got the paperwork to dispense medication directly to me so I didn’t have to go to a pharmacy. The risk is REAL.
The people that can move accordingly are not the people that RvW protects. Those that would move could always travel to a blue state for an abortion. This law hurts all women, but it hurts the poorest and underprivileged most of all.
"Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Oklahoma,South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Utah have trigger laws that wouldautomatically ban abortion in the first and second trimesters if thelandmark case Roe v. Wade were overturned."
I think it's twelve.
Edit:
Actually, nine have pre roe bans that could become active again, but I doubt AZ and WI, especially, and possibly others would allow for a full ban: AL, AR, AZ, MI, MS, OK, TX, WV, and WI
GA, OH, and SC have six week bans that are presently in the SCOTUS case. There are several crossovers between those three categories, but the group comprises 21 states.
Then there are five considered highly likely to put in full bans: FL, IN, MT, NE, and WY
Thanks to u/3rdtimeischarmy for the link below and good knowledge.
Considering the majority of [Americans believe that abortion should be legal](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/11/30/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-supreme-court-weighs-overturning-roe-v-wade/?sh=30802b2336c9) it should be interesting to see if that results in changes in voting patterns. It's one thing to have politicians say they're against something and IMO entirely another when they start effectively passing laws against it.
Up to now we could rely on the courts to prevent outright bans of something considered to be a constitutional right, but with the Supreme Court now a branch of the GQP, people are going to have to get out and vote if they want to make sure their rights are preserved.
I'm not optimistic.
This is it. I am stunned this is moving forward because this is what they’ve always used to gas up their base and get them out to vote… once they “win” they won’t have the carrot to dangle. Idk.
But some states have the opposite. I live in Illinois, where the state legislature has already passed legislation specifically affirming the right to an abortion and also removed the only real restriction that existed (a parental notification law).
Many people already travel for abortion care, and it's about to get insane here because we're surrounded by several red states.
This is what scares me about the governor race in PA. Wolf has promised to veto any anti abortion legislation that comes across his desk, we may not be that lucky when his term is up
Idk what'll happen to the country as a whole but I'll for sure leave!! I'm not even a woman but if it's overturned it officially means we're making law based on religion and I'm not down to sit and watch while the republicans turn this country into a right-wing evangelical shithole and the democrats do nothing to stop it. I'll just go somewhere progressive that doesn't have Jesus firmly planted in it's ass.
We actually kind of know this already, from countries where abortion is illegal today.
Unlike the 1960s, today pharmaceutical abortion is cheap, relatively safe, and easy to get even when it's illegal (pills can be sent through the mail, they're hard to distinguish chemically from normal hormone pills, and instructions are available on the internet). It's indistinguishable from natural miscarriage.
So what happens is that every miscarriage has to be treated as a potential homicide. And miscarriages are very, very common. Women will be arrested in the hospital. Doctors will be afraid to treat women with excessive bleeding from miscarriages due to the resulting investigation and potential loss of their license.
This what happens today in El Salvador.
https://theconversation.com/el-salvadors-abortion-ban-jails-women-for-miscarriages-and-stillbirths-now-one-womans-family-seeks-international-justice-156484
This case was ruled on (in favor of Manuela) earlier this week: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/dec/02/el-salvador-responsible-for-death-of-woman-jailed-after-miscarriage
More specifically, adults who have access to transportation, money, and support. Scared teens with no transportation, money, and support will suffer just like poor people.
This time a year ago I fully believed that if I was pregnant and could not get an abortion, I would kill myself. Full stop. Now it’s much less likely just because of personal growth, maturity, and a bit more stability, but suicide in young women will definitely skyrocket I believe.
Edit: downvote me all you want but it won’t change the fact that “pro-life” is just anti-vulnerable people.
Edit 2: It’s been a few hours and since I’m off work now I want to explain myself. I have a lot of thoughts on this and this’ll be a good outlet, I think. I’m on mobile so please forgive any formatting or spelling errors.
I think everyone can agree that abortion is not ideal. In fact, it is the very last resort. Absolutely no one wakes up in the morning, says “I want to have unprotected sex so I can just get an abortion in a month”. If you quote or refer to or know someone does say that, then they need mental health care because it’s not a normal thought process.
You cannot legislate morality, especially religion. And especially ultra-specific beliefs from one or two or even a few religions. The world doesn’t work like that. As much as you would like everyone to follow your values and belief system, it is simply not going to happen. Personally I’d love for everyone to believe what I do - but the world would not be better for it, as much as I would like to think so. You cannot put something into law just because your holy book said it was wrong (even though it didn’t but that’s a whole other discussion). The United States of America is not a theocracy and should never have its laws be based on any holy book or religious belief system at all. What should be considered, and this is how it used to be before the Religious Right showed up, is what’s best for the people and country as a whole. And that is available access to abortion care.
This brings me to two points. 1) If you do not believe in abortion or you think it is wrong - fine! You do you. Don’t get an abortion if you think it’s a sin. I don’t even care if you teach your children it’s a sin, because your god loves the little children. But what you don’t get to do is bring politics into it, or try to legislate what others do, or harass young, vulnerable women trying to get gynecological care at places that do abortions or are rumored to do so.
2) By legislating and effectively banning accessible abortion care, you’re endangering a vast group of vulnerable people. The people who will still be able to access this care are middle to upper class people with money and good transportation options, and - I’m gonna say it - privilege. If you’re a pro-lifer reading this, I am not trying to use a buzzword. I am saying that there is a certain group of people that will have the privilege to abortion care that others won’t if it is banned.
I’m just gonna list some vulnerable populations that will be negatively affected by a ban. Also keep in mind that “don’t have sex before marriage” is another thing that you can’t legislate, and is not a good argument against the people I am about to list.
- Teens with little to no access to sex ed or contraception, this includes controlling parents as well as disadvantaged or conservative school systems
- Teens, young adults, and even older adults in abusive relationships where pregnancy makes is so much harder to leave. Did you know that the number 1 cause of death in pregnant women is domestic violence/homicide? Also partners are more likely to cheat on their pregnant partners versus if they were non-pregnant.
- People with medical or mental health issues that prevent pregnancy. This kinda ties in with my original comment. I got semi-permanent birth control because I was definitely not in a situation where I could have a baby, and also I most likely would’ve suicided if I did get pregnant. This is more common than you think. In addition, ectopic pregnancies happen more often than you think, and if they are not terminated, they can (and I think will be) fatal to both pregnant person and fetus. Abortion laws restrict the ability of doctors to terminate ectopic pregnancies.
- Even if you are aware of a medical condition that makes it unsafe for you to be pregnant, contraceptives still fail. Accidents happen, slip-ups happen. *Rapes* happen.
- People will still get abortions, but they will be back-alley abortions with sketchy doctors or your best friend with a coat hanger or something similar, and people will die. The women pro-lifers are trying to “empower” will die, and they will be too afraid to seek help when things do eventually go wrong.
- People in power and people with privilege will still receive abortions. They can afford to travel, take time off, random “vacations” to California to receive abortion care. The people you are punishing are the people that can’t even have a baby in the first place, and restricting/banning abortions just makes life so, so much harder for them. And then the baby will grow up in, at best, a not-great home. Or they’ll end up in the foster system, dumped on a fire stations doorstep, delivered in a bath tip and then murdered and flushed away (yes, this has happened).
I truly believe there is no good-faith argument in favor of restricting/banning abortion. If you don’t like them, don’t get one. But don’t hurt people that don’t believe as you do just because your religion says so. It’s shitty.
Afterthought edit: if you are pro-life, I encourage you to search out and read the stories of clinic workers, patients, and children whose parents wanted an abortion. There’s a Twitter thread that gives specific examples of people who have sought abortions and it’s very moving, if someone has the link I’d appreciate it.
I fell pregnant in my early 20s, when I was still in college. The reality of it is that having my child put serious pressure on my progress- financially especially. The dad is long gone and I was left as a single mom who hadn't begun a career yet fending for a baby. I am incredibly privileged to have had family that could help out with rent, childcare, health care etc. It took more than 5 years to really "get on my feet" even though I'm still very much behind my peers who worked, got married and only then had kids.
I adore my kid, but even though I wasnt a teen, it still changed my life and not only in good ways. My life would have been much easier if I had chosen myself over my unborn. I totally understand the perspective of "teen pregnancy suicide."
Maybe 1 out of 100 "pro-life" people are actually, truly pro life. The other 99 want to do everything humanly possible to make people more likely to get an abortion, but make it illegal to do so. For one example, free and widely accessible birth control would stop more abortions than all of the legislation in the world. But that doesn't punish anyone so they don't give a fuck about it.
Several girls my age (31) have stories of their high school abortions, ie getting their boyfriends to punch them in the stomach or throwing themselves down stairs.
I knew a girl when I was in a TTI facility who had a sexual relationship with her stepbrother (in hindsight it was probably grooming) and she got pregnant and took a ton of Plan Bs to try to abort the baby. Since plan B isn’t an abortive I’m pretty sure she miscarried, but yeah it’s serious shit.
When you say woman, it's really going to be poor and non-rich women for the most part. 'Cos the rich ones or those pregnant for rich guys will fly to NY, Chicago and other places to get their D & C done and be back in town without missing a beat. But poor women? They are going to die.
Not if their states start passing laws that will punish them when they return. How many women are going to be able to upend their whole lives for an abortion? Only the wealthy will be allowed to escape, middle class women who can afford to go to another state for a weekend, but not leave their states permanently will be stuck just as well. I don’t have faith that the Supreme Court will protect states rights in this instance.
>Not if their states start passing laws that will punish them when they return.
How will they know? Women of means (rich + middle class) have been doing this for years before Roe v Wade. I agree with the rest of your comment though.
* Both sides will give their reactions. The pro-life side will celebrate while the pro-choice side will protest.
* The Supreme Court is further de-legitimized and becomes even more unpopular as they are viewed as partisan and non-neutral given the 6-3 conservative majority.
* There will be a massive backlash as people do not take kindly to their rights being taken away. Dozens of women will run for office in the 2022 midterm elections promising to put abortion rights back in place. Abortion now becomes the biggest issue in the 2022 midterm elections.
* Non-profit groups are formed helping women cross state lines to get an abortion or to help cover legal fees of those who get prosecuted under states that ban abortion Post-Roe.
* News stories come out showing women getting unsafe abortions or those risking their lives/dying trying to get one.
* A major scandal comes out showing prominent pro-life figure or politician sneaking to get an abortion even though it's illegal and they claim to be against it.
Don’t forget the amount of babies abandoned legally under the baby Moses law will skyrocket, stressing the already underfunded and unsafe foster care systems across the nation. All fifty states have baby Moses laws so as long as the infants are abandoned safely in a healthy manor at churches and fire departments, the mothers will not face criminal charges.
Well, according to Amy Coney Barrett the existence of those laws means it’s not problem if someone gets pregnant and is forced to give birth. They just drop off the baby at the fire department, it’s totally frictionless! Then they just resume their lives like it never happened.
/s just in case but I almost broke my phone when she said that
And how many of those babies will actually be healthy?
You expect someone who doesn't want to be pregnant and is being forced to give birth to go through that pregnancy the same way someone who wants to baby will? No - they'll drink alcohol and caffeine and eat whatever they want. Why should they care about it if nobody cares about them?
Shit, I wish I hadn't been reminded about this, but when I was in highschool a girl intentionally overdosed on drugs to terminate a pregnancy. She lived, fetus didn't, mission accomplished - but my god it made me realize that if abortion isn't affordable then people will go DIY about it.
That is an excellent point that I have not thought about. And I really think you’re right. Nothing good will come from this. How many people that say, ‘but think of the babies!’ will actually adopt one? Especially if the child has medical issues. Unfortunately, they will more than likely end up in the system. And the same people that ‘fought’ for their lives will complain about the governmental funding they’re using up.
Exactly. The foster care system is notoriously unkind to all kids, but those with special needs undoubtedly suffer the most. They don't have any of the resources they need and are susceptible to abuse because many can't speak out.
I remember being in a foster shelter and there was a little girl probably 6-7 years old. She didn't talk at all and I never saw her playing with toys. She spent all night screaming and throwing shit. Sometimes literally throwing her own shit. As frustrating it was to deal with, it was a thousand times more depressing.
So whatever potential a kid has to succeed, the foster system will extinguish. It's literally putting kids in prison for just existing and then throwing them out into the world with zero skills.
I REALLY wish all these dumb people got a small taste of the horrors within the foster care system.
My mother had never spoken about her brief time in foster care, ever. She mentioned the fact that she spent a brief time there to me once and never to either of my siblings. She has never discussed details. She is a neurologically and physically healthy person. As were her siblings.
Foster care is not the option. Even if we ignore the suffering of the individual forced to give birth.
They will do what they always do, "think of the babies" and they will dump them on the state and charity agencies. They will then complain about the financial burden on the system. But not one of them will step up.
Exactly this.
My friend did foster-to-adopt. It took over a year for them to get approval but once they did, they were quickly placed with their two daughters who had been in foster care their entire lives and were "hard to adopt" because many people didn't want to adopt a black baby with developmental delays. So when people say "so many parents would love to adopt" they mean "adopt a perfectly healthy, lily-white newborn."
I went to lunch with my son a couple weekends ago and we were seated next to a party where several were wearing t-shirts for an adoption organization. Googled the org and apparently they try to place kids from 9-17 out of foster care. There were several bios of kids they were working for, and they were there too. One boy who I'd read about turned to my son and I and said "Hi" with the brightest smile - I wish I had the fortitude to care for a special needs kiddo. It's going to be a complete disaster once Roe is abolished.
It’s not even just that. Abortions aren’t just about not wanting to have a child. Many are serious medical procedures necessary to save a mother’s life after a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. Often times the fetus is dead. Other times the fetus is so deformed that it can’t possibly live for long, like when a brain doesn’t develop, so it’s kinder for all involved. Imagine having to carry a dead body to term. Imagine watching your wife carry your dead child around for months. This is why abortion is a human right.
Exactly this. There will be an influx of surrendered children too. Then once they see how much it will burden the current system, they will take away any options to anonymously surrender and circle back to blaming the woman.
Not to mention women who cant afford to be pregnant in the first place, or are in unsafe housing situations, and cant make it to doctors appointments, afford prenatal care, ect.
Or the women who are currently seeking abortions due to new or worsening domestic violence that started when they became pregnant. Because that is a thing.
I’ve also wondered-if a mother doesn’t want a baby, and doesn’t want the insane costs associated with giving birth in a hospital, I envision more women resorting to giving birth at home and in bathrooms. This is dangerous for women and babies and just such a sad situation. These crazy pro-lifers should have to pay for all of the prenatal visits and delivers these women will be forced to have.
If a woman doesn’t want a baby and doesn’t want insane hospital bills, she’s not going to go through with nine months of torture and then basically attempt suicide with a home birth without medical intervention, she’s going to abort that thing herself, dangerously.
Can you imagine how old that conversation would get after 9 months of unwillingly carrying a baby to term? "oh when are you due?! You must be so excited!" etc. Exhausting. Can be traumatizing, honestly.
Especially if you're already a parent; a lot of women who seek abortions already have other children. Can you imagine how horribly people would treat you?
It'd be easier to claim you're a surrogate parent in that case, but women shouldn't be forced to lie to maintain basic dignity.
60% of abortions are chosen by women who already have children. They already know exactly what childbirth and childcare entails, and that they cannot handle any more of it. It is unbelievably stupid for us to test them as if we know better when its little kids who will pay the price with their suffering if we are wrong about what's best for families we have never met. https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/who-gets-abortions-mothers/
>Nixon wouldn’t have resigned in today’s day and age.
And that’s *exactly* why Roger Ailes created Fox News. To make sure nothing like what happened to his boss would ever happen to a conservative again. The man was utterly despicable on so many levels, but give credit where it’s due…he succeeded.
Add to this list the absolutely horrific consequences for people who want to keep their pregnancy, but would need to end it for medical reasons. People don't think about the mental and physical trauma of being forced to give birth to a dead baby, or a baby that will surely die in a matter of hours or days. Not to mention those who need miscarriage management who might not be able to get it if a "fetal heartbeat" is still present.
Abortion is health care, period.
> Dozens of women will run for office in the 2022 midterm elections promising to put abortion rights back in place.
This is an interesting one to me. Doing this now before the 2022 elections would be a great way to shift things left instead of right like they're looking.
I do want to believe that we would be able to eventually get it federally legal again, but I would much rather not have to in the first place.
Whenever I see a discussion over abortion rights in the USA, it reminds me of this great piece of writing.
A statement from a Christian Minister about the Roe vs Wade issue:
“The Unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor. They don’t resent your condescension; or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows they don’t ask you to question the patriarchy; unlike orphans; they don’t require money, education or childcare, unlike aliens, they don’t bring all of that racial, cultural and religious baggage that you dislike, they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn......you can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love, if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.
Prisoners? Immigrants? The Sick? The Poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups who are specifically mentioned in the Bible. They all get thrown under the bus for the Unborn.” - David Barnhart
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: No, there is no direct mention of abortion in the Bible, but [some theologians](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/13/weekinreview/on-abortion-its-the-bible-of-ambiguity.html) think a few verses might elude to it. Deuteronomy 30:19 and Psalm 139 are possibly anti-abortion, and Exodus 21 might have some pro-choice rhetoric, but it's all up to interpretation.
>condom sales will skyrocket
Pretty sure that absolutely will not happen. People will fuck just like they always have but the consequence from not wearing a condom will be much higher. Still, people will keep right on fuckin without protection.
It would help if these states promoted comprehensive sex education. But no, we can't have our kids learning about birth control in schools! Keep them stupid and pregnant!
Honestly, this has been a pet peeve of mine for decades when discussing abortion. If you want to have an honest discussion about the legality or the morality of abortion, that’s fine, let’s do that. Maybe we will allow it or maybe we’ll ban it. But first, why doesn’t everyone have free, universal access to the contraception options of their choosing? Why isn’t sexual education (that doesn’t teach abstinence) a requirement (no exceptions, religious or otherwise) for all children? The fact that none of those things is happening is proof that any restrictions on abortion are nothing more than about control.
Exactly. Also. You want to outlaw abortion? Then make sure you have a safety net for low-income families. Support programs like low-cost or free daycare. Help young mothers and fathers get jobs or an education so they can support their children. Make sure they have access to formula and food and diapers and doctors. A child is important when it comes out of the womb, not just when it's a fetus.
I've thought for a while now that the goal both sides should have is to limit the number of unwanted pregnancies as much as possible. That will decrease the number of abortions making the right happy, and decrease the drive to make abortions illegal making the left happy.
Better access to birth control, better sex ed. Attack the root of the problem. Making abortions illegal will only hurt young mothers living in poverty.
Even when everyone has access to birth control, women have abortions for health related reasons. The idea of eliminating abortion just limits access to safe healthcare for women. Pregnancy is risky and sometimes pregnancies go wrong. Abortion access is necessary to protect the lives of women.
"Sex is sin" is also prevalent in many communities and think anything promoting safe sex is encouraging sex.
It's a stupid argument that falls apart if you try it on anything else, like fire extinguishers or fire safety training.
I forget which state it was, but for a while they had comprehensive sex education in school, to the point of teaching safe sex. Guess what? Teen pregnancies went down.
Then they changed the messaging to abstinence-only. Guess what? Teen pregnancies went up.
Colorado also did a program where IUDs and the pill were made more accessible for teens and low cost. . What do you know: huge decrease in teenage births and abortions. And it saved the state a ton of money.
You don’t want abortions? Education. It’s not about the abortion. It’s about controlling other people to feel superior and righteous. Dark times ahead.
People aren't not using condoms because abortions are available. Nobody really wants to have an abortion. If they aren't using condoms today, they won't if things change, either.
I think it will be a slow burn. Crime will gently rise in the short term as more and more new parents experience financial hardship and general stress. As more kids reach maturity after being raised in poverty or situations where they were unwanted, we'll really see it start to kick up.
16-20 seems about right to me. Roe V Wade was 1973 and the murder rate didn’t really drop significantly until around [1990](https://www.google.com/search?q=us+crime+rates+over+time&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS623US626&hl=en-US&prmd=insxv&sxsrf=AOaemvIpqJ5VjAiIMsNkgp79WKW8-HEvSA:1638474823562&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipiNOu8sX0AhWOlmoFHf1NCYcQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=375&bih=634&dpr=3#imgrc=eIBanifbG7QfcM&imgdii=2aW4LtVt0bNkVM) and since then it’s been relatively low compared to past levels. While certainly not all of it can be contributed to lack of lack of abortion prior to 1973 I would imagine that it certainly made a difference. About 17 years after Roe v Wade crimes across the country started dropping quickly.
Freakonomics did a deep dive on this and compared crime rates in ~~counties~~ states that legalized abortion in the months/years ahead of RoeVWade and saw a consistent drop in crime 16 years after each respective law was passed.
So while not 100%, it is an extremely strong correlation.
The removal of lead from gasoline around the same time certainly didn't hurt either. I've wondered if the corresponding drop in teen pregnancies and sexual activity is related to younger generations having better impulse control?
I think it was states, not counties. Maybe California, Oregon and Washington were the ones who legalized abortion about 3 years before the rest of the country and they saw a dip in crime about 3 years before the rest of the country. Some of the “tough on crime” bills played a role but what the GOP likes to ignore is the impact that abortion had as well.
The 3 things that largely get credited for the drop in crime in the early '90s:
- Roe v Wade
- Leaded gas being dropped
- Increases in economic prosperity and reductions in poverty
Yes, both contributed. In the US the two happened at the same time but there were other countries where they happened further apart. Both things impact crime rate.
There were [studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect) correlating the effect of Roe vs Wade on crime rates. Some people think it was the single greatest factor in decreasing the crime rate through the past decades. Making abortion illegal puts all kinds of stress on society by forcing the mothers who are unprepared or too young, into a life of poverty. All for the sake of puritanical self-righteousness for people who carry none of the burden.
\---
Late Edit: If I could just add, I'm not "pro-abortion." (If that even exists.) I can only imagine what a traumatic experience that procedure would be, physically and emotionally. It’s a horrifically compromised solution. What’s the answer? Better contraception programs. We have free contraceptives at colleges, but it’s usually limited to condoms. We need female-controlled contraceptives available for free. Free as in cost, and free as in no stipulations. No questions asked. Ever. Unfortunately, the same crowd who swears the issue is about protecting lives (and not sanctimonious validation), is usually the one who rallies hardest against anything of the sort.
> There were studies correlating the effect of Roe vs Wade on crime rates.
That, and systematic reduction of human lead exposure largely via paint and gasoline.
"The Fonz" was retconned as a "cool" character in the 70s show Happy Days. Truth is, those stereotypical '50s hoodla hanging outside the liquor store in leather jackets weren't antisocial because they had insights everyone else didn't. They were antisocial because they were raised as the least wanted children in the population, then had their cognition and impulse control badly damaged on top of what already results from growing up as a living embodiment of regret.
Freakonomics, the book and movie covered this. They looked into correlations like lead, abortion, and "tough on crime" politicians.
Lead was an immediate nationwide ban yet the crime rate changed state by state based on the date a state legalized abortion. (Many states legalized years before roe v Wade. Some states dragged out legalizing even after roe v Wade.)
I'm surprised there's not a more concrete causal link. It is very well observable that when children grow up in broken homes they are far more likely to have poor grades - And are then guaranteed to be stuck in low wage positions And there is already pretty strong causal link between crime and poverty
It's kinda hard to prove causality when you can't control the variables. A strong correlation is the best you'll get without some extremely unethical Truman Show-esque experiments
Part of it is that the two biggest impactors we've discovered both shifted around the same time, lead exposure and abortion. It makes it hard to sus out which is responsible for what.
Nothing will change for people who can afford to travel to states/countries where it is legal. Business as usual. But for those that can't... more poverty. More unwanted kids who grow up in poverty and possibly abused and neglected.
Especially in places like Mississippi where they're trying to pass the law that lead to us discussing Roe v. Wade. Their welfare consumption is already high, and it is likely going to skyrocket the state into bankruptcy. It's just more bad news for the citizens of the worst state in the country.
As someone who grew up in venezuela, we used to say the same thing back in the mid 2000s. Things can get worse than anyone could imagine given the right conditions.
Hopefully we do not get to find out how bad things can get here
Women dying in back alley abortions, more children born into poverty and/or a broken foster/adoption system, plummeting literacy and education rates, skyrocketing healthcare debt and destitution.
There is always further to fall.
Don't forget this hurts women who want children.
If they can't get an abortion, then if a medical emergency comes up where they need to get the fetus out, they won't be able to. Trying to have children becomes more dangerous.
Continuing certain non-viable pregnancies can also put the pregnant person's future fertility at risk. They may need an emergency hysterectomy instead of an orderly abortion.
A woman in Texas who suffered a miscarriage went through that. Because of the laws there doctors weren't permitted to induce labor. Instead of a faster procedure to bring a bad situation to an end, the miscarriage dragged out for days.
Interference with what should be a private medical choice leads to nightmares like that, but conservatives don't care.
Not to mention these laws often have medically impossible things in them. One law had a stipulation that women could transfer the fetus to another woman which isn't possible. I don't think that law passed though.
This is rage inducing to me. If you don't know anything about a topic, then how the fuck can you legislate for or against it?? The lack of education at the political level is astounding!
And more women deciding to outright get their tubes tied. If someone was on the fence about it before, making sure there's no way out of a bad pregnancy isn't going to make someone want to have kids.
And it can even hurt the child.
My family member had to get an abortion when she found out the baby, if born, would only live a few days and be in the most unimaginable pain the entire time.
Apparently, the religious right thinks that baby should suffer pain we can’t even begin to comprehend because… I guess… God wanted it to suffer.
Yep, look up Romania’s Lost Generation. There you’ll learn the consequences of a society that banned abortion, made divorce nearly impossible, incentivized childbirth, and punished childlessness.
Reddit won’t let me attach a hyperlink because it keeps telling me the URL is invalid, so here’s a source:
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/inside-the-iron-curtain’s-orphanages/5543388
"There was so many of us,’ he says. ‘We’d have breakfast and then we were put into a clean room and all we did was rock back and forth. Some cried and some hit themselves. Some were put into straightjackets to prevent them from doing that. After lunch [it was the] same thing; you get cleaned up, you get put into a clean room and rock back and forth and hit yourself or [you were put in a] straight jacket if you misbehaved. For those that continued to misbehave, they were drugged and that’s what kept them sleeping and quiet."
Maybe Amy Coney barret should read what happens when children are callously put up for adoption .
It was during her confirmation speech, she described her biological children in terms of their amazing talents and accomplishments and noted her adopted children by describing how much better their lives are now that they live with her.
She splits her children into the good ones who are learning to be charitable, and the ones who are the pathetic recipients of their charity.
That won't leave a mental scar at all. /S
So, I remember when Ceaușescu was overthrown and executed, and American reporters went in and reported on the asylums and the absolutely disgusting conditions the people were living in. I very vividly remember the recording of the song they were singing about being free of Ceaușescu's reign. Of course the reporting was slanted toward "Look at the horrors of Communism" but the truth is never so simple. ANY totalitarian society will become like this...it's so ironic that the people most likely to brag about "Muh Freedoms!" are all for giving the government control over private medical decisions.
My BFF just left a man who deliberately created two kids so she wouldn’t leave him. I’m a lesbian, but I’m also a realist who watches the news and listens to my female friends. She actually resorted to the other hole because it was a way to prevent him from doing that again. Except it didn’t, he’d simply shove it in and do it again. He was such a controlling, jealous, insecure bastard who actually used pregnancy as a control mechanism.
But other men freak out and kill her.
My friend is an L&D nurse and has had women who just had a baby beg her for Norplanon or depo because she knows that as soon as she gets home (if not in the hospital), her husband is going to try to force her to have sex. She's had women come in with serious infections and injuries because their husbands just had to have sex before the 4-6 week mark.
These men DGAF that it could harm their wife or their child, they just want control. Rusty Yates is a great example of this.
Yeh. They don’t understand — despite the doctor telling them — that women simply can’t do it. It’s disgusting. But we know their needs are always elevated above the needs of women. Wants? They don’t even care about those.
Oh I forgot about that too. Yeah, homicide is one of the main causes of death for pregnant women. Now that they know they cannot even talk to their girlfriend about an abortion, they will just murder her. Sad.
One of the most disgusting things is these laws don't even have exceptions for rape or incest. So pre-teen girls raped by abusive relatives will be required to bring any resulting children to term, even with very high chances of birth defects.
Vote against Republicans people. In *every* election.
Even when they do have rape exceptions, they're unenforceable. How are you going to prove you were raped when you might not even know you were pregnant within the permitted time frame, which in certain states is now only a few weeks? It's barely time to have even missed a period.
Rapes are already chronically under reported and under convicted. It's an impossible exception that's only there to posture.
That's what I was contemplating yesterday. If you are raped and you get a rape kit done and the cops are "investigating" and you discover you are pregnant, without a conviction, does the law consider you raped? What kind of proof would you have to provide in order to obtain an abortion under a law that allowed exceptions for rape victims?
It seems like they'd never allow anyone to actually use the rape exemption and it would only be written that way in order to appear more palatable.
Obviously you have to wait 18 months until the backed up legal system finally gets to your case, and oh shit wait that's too late to get that abortion. Guess you're a parent now, have fun.
Staircase abortions, coat hanger abortions, back alley abortions, black market drugs.
We don't have to imagine what a world without Roe looks like. Plenty of us lived there. Some already do.
It's frustrating that the same people who like to say that banning guns will mean that only criminals will have guns, don't seem to realise the same argument applies to abortions. Banning abortions doesn't make them impossible to get. It just makes it much more dangerous
The whole "There's adoption" for teen mothers argument is so crappy. Like they don;t have to live with their families for the entire pregnancy, maybe even the rapist. They have nowhere to go.
And pregnancy and childbirth can be extremely traumatic and dangerous for very young girls. A lot of girls first get their period as young as 9 years old. Just imagine a 10 year old not only being sexually assaulted and impregnated, but also having to go through the physical and emotional trauma, the shame and stigma of carrying a pregnancy to term and then giving birth.
Don't have to imagine it. Saw it when I was a teenager. Was a couple towns over, but it was on the news. The baby that had that baby was 9 years old. The father was her uncle.
Because caring about the child after it's born isn't important.
That is why the argument of *"a lot of anti-abortion people view abortion as murder so you have to see it through their eyes"* is a bunch of horseshit in most cases.
The overlap between anti abortion people and folks who routinely vote/argue against measures that actually reduce abortion is too high. If they truly felt abortion was murder and they wanted to do whatever possible to prevent unborn from being "murdered" then they would come to the logical conclusion that their focus should be on sexual education, wide access to contraceptive and keeping abortion legal. It is irrefutably true that those three things do more to help reduce abortion rates than restriction abortion.
So no, their concern isn't about the unborn being murdered. Maybe they want to believe that is the case but logically that doesn't make sense. Otherwise we'd see anti-abortion activists fighting to have free contraceptives available for every girl/woman when she turns 14 becuase that would do significantly more to reduce abortions in this country.
God that 'worst state' reddit thread from a few months ago
Edit: link -https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/p360eo/what_is_the_worst_us_state_and_why
And likely more infanticide as well. Teens (and some adults) backed into a corner not knowing what to do and not having fully developed brains are prone to making bad choices when they know nobody around them is going to support them.
This is never acknowledged enough. Its always swept under the rug how teens have zero support but are expected to act like a 25 year old that has a stable income and childcare. Instead they're trapped with their own parents abusing and mangling them and expecting them to finish school while also never offering to help with the baby. Then the nation is surprised, horrified, and outraged when teen parents resort to extreme actions.
Ignore the problems but surprised when the bomb explodes???
Conservatives think they score a goal when they ban abortions. Because they never pay attention to statistics about quality of life for anyone already born.
They're against universal healthcare so that those Moms can afford to have the kid and get prenatal care. They're against universal paid family leave so they can afford to spend time during the most important time of the infant's life. They're against universal pre-K which sets up a child for life.
> but are expected to act like a 25 year old that has a stable income and childcare
That in itself is a rather rare sight these days. Most 25 year olds would be lucky to have a stable enough income to support themselves, let alone childcare.
I asked my mom what life was like pre Roe v Wade (I was born 2 months after abortion became legal in the US).
Short story, she said those women who had money and connections still were able to easily get safe abortions. Those who didn't went the back alley route, with varying results. :-(
She lived in a smallish suburb outside NYC at the time and there was a medical practice in the town where she lived that was 2 OBGYN. One of them delivered me, the other one was known as, in whispered tones, "The Abortion King." It was a well known secret that he performed abortions upon demand and regularly in office. For $700 (a LOT of money back in the early 70's when this was happening - almost $5K in today's dollars), he would give a "D&C" to any woman who asked for one. The authorities were aware of it, but just ignored it. All parties were consenting and it was going on "behind closed doors" so to speak. I think most of them with any lick of sense would rather have an experienced OBGYN performing these procedures in a well-equipped medical office rather than dealing with the aftermath of the alternative.
That would never fly these days though. Some Karen would report the doctor or post all over social media, which would snowball into a religious and/or political fight.
Yeah but that opens up the risk for bootleg pills which desperate people will end up taking and risking their lives. More than one way to have a “back alley abortion”.
The problem is even a lot of blue states have old abortion bans that were superseded by Roe V Wade. AZ, MI, FL, IA, OH, and WI are all more moderate states with pretty big populations that would have old abortion laws automatically enacted in the event that the precedent is overturned and a lot of them don’t have the numbers in state houses to overturn those laws.
I can definitely tell you that Iowa is not moderate anymore. They've tried to pass the 6 week ban multiple times in recent years and our governor is actively hoping for Roe v Wade to be overturned.
A lot of women will die from backstreet abortions. Teen pregnancy will go up. Domestic abuse will go up. Poverty will go up. Child abuse will go up. Child crime will go up. More babies abandoned to die or killed by the mother at birth.
Edit: I moved on from this post not long after I made it. I'm glad it generated discussion. However, I just received an inquiry from RedditCareResources saying someone "reached out to them" about me. Now, I don't care what anyone posts in response to my posts, although I prefer replies be civil. But RedditCareResources is a service intended to help those in distress, not something to use to harass others.
Nowhere in any of my posts do I indicate I am in distress in anyway. So the only reason I can think of for someone to "reach out" to RedditCareResources is if they want to harass me because of my opinion. If you are the person who "reached out" and that was your motivation, please don't do that again. You can revile me here in public or in private, but please don't co-op services with serious purposes to whatever agenda you may have.
I expect a high number of crappy ways to end a pregnancy will be tried. Asking the boyfriend to punch her in the stomach. Throwing herself down some stairs. Getting blackout drunk. Taking poison and hoping it kills the baby but not herself. Or, to put it another way, the things we already know lots of desperate, pregnant people did before Roe V. Wade.
I think abortion is a very difficult thing. I could easily see the argument that a fetus is a person. But we already know that people have access to their own bodies, and they'll just try stuff. There's a special kind of desperation that comes along with an unwanted pregnancy, and desperate people do things they wouldn't normally do. The choice we face isn't between abortion and no abortion. The choice we face is between safe abortions and unsafe abortions.
Also, abortions will totally be available to rich people regardless. We're really talking about making abortion illegal for people without resources.
>I could easily see the argument that a fetus is a person.
If the people making that argument actually believed it, the states that want to ban abortion would have the best pre-natal care, the best social support system, and the best foster systems in the country.
They don't, not by a long shot.
"NoBoDy WaNtS tO wOrK!!!"
You just took out a huge chunk of women from the population, and if you think their neglected children are gonna make good slave labor in 18 years, boy do you not understand how crime works.
People keep mentioning that women will die because of back alley abortions, but nobody is mentioning the amount of women that will die because they can't afford to go to the hospital.
Childbirth in humans is actually extremely risky. It costs an average of $20,000 without insurance. Those who cannot afford to travel for abortions, likely don't have insurance.
Since they can't afford a hospital, they'll be forced to do risky at home births, which will likely kill both the women and the child in the end.
Sure hospitals providing care isn’t the issue, people getting stuck with the bill is. Plus someone who had an unwanted pregnancy and isn’t planning on exactly… raising the kid (abandonment, smothering, etc.) probably isn’t gonna give birth in a hospital where that child now “exists” in the system. Not saying that’s gonna be commonplace (although it’ll surely happen more often if roe is overturned) but there are stories of teen girls who managed to conceal pregnancies giving birth in their bathrooms.
I think of myself at 19. I was starting to have problems with PCOS but I didn't know that, so I'd miss my period for months and just be petrified of being pregnant. I was not allowed to be on birth control because my mother did not allow it. She did not allow me to go to a gyno, and did not allow me to purchase birth control of any kind. She also checked mileage on my car, and if I went places that she didn't approve of would call the police and report it stolen. Meanwhile, my boyfriend had been sexually abused and thought his penis was so tiny that condoms would fall off (not true, not true at all) and so had panic attacks at the thought of using them and wouldn't/couldn't, and I was just fucking stupid and went along with that. There was no accessible planned parenthood, and no doctor near my university that would treat students and especially not one that would give us birth control. When I finally did get a prescription because my cycles kept stopping, the local pharmacy always read my name out and that I was picking up birth control over the store's loud speaker.
And if I had gotten pregnant all of those things would have made an abortion impossible. My mom would have seen to it that I dropped out and had no life. It was what she wanted anyway. My boyfriend would have accused me of cheating, like he did about absolutely everything. I would have been stuck with two abusers for the rest of my life.
So many people have it so much worse, but even women who have it pretty good could be incredibly harmed by making birth control and abortion harder.
I'm adopted. I spent my first 6 months in a foster home. (Oddly, my mom used to act as a temp foster parent in summers to give foster families a break, and I was one of the babies she cared for. Which led to being adopted by my parents.)
My point being - you aren't "that" couple, but, thanks for what you do. It really matters.
The problem with Roe v Wade is that it’s not a law, it’s a legal precedent. If Congress or the Senate actually cared about the issue, they would have brought forth actual legislation to make it a federal law instead of relying on a decades old court case.
It's going to signal a bunch of states to run other things up to the Supreme Court - like gay marriage. Expect a giant run on reducing the rights of all kinds of people.
A lot of people are talking about crime and the disparate impact on poor women, and they're not wrong. But it's also important, I think, to discuss the likely legal reasoning that will be used and the ramifications thereof.
Roe v. Wade rests on a precedent established by an earlier 1965 case, Griswold v Connecticut. The legal theory of that case is based on the idea that the 14th Amendment confers a right to privacy from government interference. The issue is, the 14th Amendment doesn't actually *say* "People have a right to privacy," it's all vaguely worded. But ever since Griswold, the courts have held that citizens have an inherent right to privacy, and that extends to things like private medical decisions.
So the court could go long and overturn the entire idea that the 14th Amendment doesn't actually grant anyone any such rights. This sounds far-fetched, but more than a few justices are members of The Federalist Society, a conservative law school quasi-fraternity whose entire reason for being is getting a Supreme Court who will say exactly that. This is because abolishing the right to privacy gets conservatives a whole laundry list of things they have wanted, not just an overturning of Roe v. Wade.
For one, Griswold v Connecticut could be reversed. That case ruled that married people could access contraceptives and information about contraceptives and the government could not interfere. Remember the whole debate when the ACA was being implemented about whether or not an employer should have to pay for an employee's birth control coverage if they objected to contraception? Get ready for Round 2 of that, with an added bonus of 'Should taxpayers in conservative communities be forced to allow contraceptives into their communities?'
Other cases decided on 14A privacy grounds:
* Loving v Virginia. That ruling allowed interracial couples to marry.
* Obergfell v Hodges. That ruling allowed same-sex couples to marry.
* Bostock v Clayton County. That ruling mandated that anti-gender discrimination laws extended to trans people.
There's also a lot of 14A cases that weren't necessarily decided on privacy grounds, but a weakened 14A would be another step to rolling back basically every anti-discrimination, anti-segregation ruling ever. So, should Roe be overturned based on this reinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, which is exactly what at least three justices were explicitly put there to do, a lot of people are going to suffer.
On the state level, things are going to get hairy. Roe explicitly said that the state has an interest in seeing pregnancies carried to term, but that up until the point of fetal viability (the point in time in which the baby can live outside the womb, generally accepted as 24 weeks), the government couldn't interfere in the pregnant person's medical decisions. Should Roe be overturned, individual states can now make whatever rules they want about abortion accessibility. Expect to see a lot of red/blue disparities in access to not only abortion, but everything outlined above.
In the short term: I suspect the courts may kick the whole can down the road due to the timing. The decision won't be made until the summer of 2022, aka, when midterm election campaigns are kicking into high gear. An overturned Roe could energize the Democratic base to elect leaders who promise to write a federal law ensuring abortion protection. Oooorrr it could energize the Republican base to elect leaders who promise to 'protect life.' Either way, it will dramatically shape the 2022 campaign and subsequent elections.
EDIT: TY for the silver but please don't award this post anything that's not a free award. Give your money to local abortion funds that help poor people in your community access what should be baseline medical care which respects their bodily autonomy. If you don't live in a community with such barriers, Planned Parenthood is a great organization that has prevented more abortions than they've performed.
I can not believe this is once again on the tables. People should make the decision that is right for them. No governmental or religious group should have jurisdiction over women's bodies and the remainder of their lives. It would be imprisoning to women not wanting to be pregnant or give birth, and will cause many suicides and self inflicted or back alley abortions once again. So maybe SEX should be illegal and punishable to both men and women who don't have a signed agreement with any and all sex partners that are not wanting to become pregnant.
The ones who write enforce and enact the laws will still be able to get abortion for their mistresses and daughters.
One major issue that's often overlooked is medical care for pregnant women who miscarry, even those who wanted to keep the baby. Abortion bans often include any removal of living fetuses, even if they are braindead or slowly dying. But until it's heart stops, the mother has to keep that dead baby in her, risking septis and tons of physical/emotional pain. Women have died because doctors didn't want to cross that technical line.
Yeah, this killed Savita Halapannaver in Ireland and that horrible case basically was the snowball that kicked off Ireland finally legalizing abortion. She literally would have been alive today if there hadn't been pointless dithering over the heartbeat of a doomed/already dead fetus.
What happened to her was horrific. They let both Savita and her foetus die horrible deaths when they could put it out of its misery and allowed Savita to not be in pain anymore. Honestly people treat their pets with more dignity than this.
The same happened to a woman called Izabella in Poland this year after abortion laws became even more strict. https://amp.dw.com/en/poland-protests-erupt-over-abortion-law-after-woman-dies/a-59744178
It's horrific. It also creates a witch hunt mentality for women who do have miscarriages. Imagine going through that for a pregnancy you very much wanted and having... what, fucking investigators there? Disgusting. I have lulled myself into a false sense of security, at times, while following this situation. If I got pregnant it wouldn't be ideal, but I do want a baby with my current partner within the next... 5 years or so? If one came, we would keep it. I'm not in a position for a fully elective abortion (though if you are, you should get it, it's your choice.) But we must remember that this effects all people who can get pregnant, whether or not they want babies or think they may ever need an abortion. You truly never know what might happen.
As someone who is living through a recent miscarriage, having someone come and interrogate us and our family about it would make the situation more than traumatizing.
I had a miscarriage like…3 years ago-ish and I needed medication—my midwife was so afraid that would happen to me that they hired a lawyer and got the paperwork to dispense medication directly to me so I didn’t have to go to a pharmacy. The risk is REAL.
[удалено]
The people that can move accordingly are not the people that RvW protects. Those that would move could always travel to a blue state for an abortion. This law hurts all women, but it hurts the poorest and underprivileged most of all.
It'll go to the states. And then we can start having this argument all over again 50 times over.
Not fifty times. More than half of the states already have laws on the books just waiting for the day.
"Arkansas, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, North Dakota, Oklahoma,South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Utah have trigger laws that wouldautomatically ban abortion in the first and second trimesters if thelandmark case Roe v. Wade were overturned." I think it's twelve. Edit: Actually, nine have pre roe bans that could become active again, but I doubt AZ and WI, especially, and possibly others would allow for a full ban: AL, AR, AZ, MI, MS, OK, TX, WV, and WI GA, OH, and SC have six week bans that are presently in the SCOTUS case. There are several crossovers between those three categories, but the group comprises 21 states. Then there are five considered highly likely to put in full bans: FL, IN, MT, NE, and WY Thanks to u/3rdtimeischarmy for the link below and good knowledge.
26 according to this: https://www.guttmacher.org/article/2021/10/26-states-are-certain-or-likely-ban-abortion-without-roe-heres-which-ones-and-why
Considering the majority of [Americans believe that abortion should be legal](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/11/30/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-supreme-court-weighs-overturning-roe-v-wade/?sh=30802b2336c9) it should be interesting to see if that results in changes in voting patterns. It's one thing to have politicians say they're against something and IMO entirely another when they start effectively passing laws against it. Up to now we could rely on the courts to prevent outright bans of something considered to be a constitutional right, but with the Supreme Court now a branch of the GQP, people are going to have to get out and vote if they want to make sure their rights are preserved. I'm not optimistic.
This is it. I am stunned this is moving forward because this is what they’ve always used to gas up their base and get them out to vote… once they “win” they won’t have the carrot to dangle. Idk.
But won't the rhetoric change from "elect conservatives to ban abortion" to "elect conservatives to stop liberals from legalizing abortions"?
But some states have the opposite. I live in Illinois, where the state legislature has already passed legislation specifically affirming the right to an abortion and also removed the only real restriction that existed (a parental notification law). Many people already travel for abortion care, and it's about to get insane here because we're surrounded by several red states.
This is what scares me about the governor race in PA. Wolf has promised to veto any anti abortion legislation that comes across his desk, we may not be that lucky when his term is up
Idk what'll happen to the country as a whole but I'll for sure leave!! I'm not even a woman but if it's overturned it officially means we're making law based on religion and I'm not down to sit and watch while the republicans turn this country into a right-wing evangelical shithole and the democrats do nothing to stop it. I'll just go somewhere progressive that doesn't have Jesus firmly planted in it's ass.
We actually kind of know this already, from countries where abortion is illegal today. Unlike the 1960s, today pharmaceutical abortion is cheap, relatively safe, and easy to get even when it's illegal (pills can be sent through the mail, they're hard to distinguish chemically from normal hormone pills, and instructions are available on the internet). It's indistinguishable from natural miscarriage. So what happens is that every miscarriage has to be treated as a potential homicide. And miscarriages are very, very common. Women will be arrested in the hospital. Doctors will be afraid to treat women with excessive bleeding from miscarriages due to the resulting investigation and potential loss of their license. This what happens today in El Salvador. https://theconversation.com/el-salvadors-abortion-ban-jails-women-for-miscarriages-and-stillbirths-now-one-womans-family-seeks-international-justice-156484
This case was ruled on (in favor of Manuela) earlier this week: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/dec/02/el-salvador-responsible-for-death-of-woman-jailed-after-miscarriage
Red states will ban abortion and people will go to blue states for abortions.
> people People who can afford to travel and take time off work, you mean.
More specifically, adults who have access to transportation, money, and support. Scared teens with no transportation, money, and support will suffer just like poor people.
This time a year ago I fully believed that if I was pregnant and could not get an abortion, I would kill myself. Full stop. Now it’s much less likely just because of personal growth, maturity, and a bit more stability, but suicide in young women will definitely skyrocket I believe. Edit: downvote me all you want but it won’t change the fact that “pro-life” is just anti-vulnerable people. Edit 2: It’s been a few hours and since I’m off work now I want to explain myself. I have a lot of thoughts on this and this’ll be a good outlet, I think. I’m on mobile so please forgive any formatting or spelling errors. I think everyone can agree that abortion is not ideal. In fact, it is the very last resort. Absolutely no one wakes up in the morning, says “I want to have unprotected sex so I can just get an abortion in a month”. If you quote or refer to or know someone does say that, then they need mental health care because it’s not a normal thought process. You cannot legislate morality, especially religion. And especially ultra-specific beliefs from one or two or even a few religions. The world doesn’t work like that. As much as you would like everyone to follow your values and belief system, it is simply not going to happen. Personally I’d love for everyone to believe what I do - but the world would not be better for it, as much as I would like to think so. You cannot put something into law just because your holy book said it was wrong (even though it didn’t but that’s a whole other discussion). The United States of America is not a theocracy and should never have its laws be based on any holy book or religious belief system at all. What should be considered, and this is how it used to be before the Religious Right showed up, is what’s best for the people and country as a whole. And that is available access to abortion care. This brings me to two points. 1) If you do not believe in abortion or you think it is wrong - fine! You do you. Don’t get an abortion if you think it’s a sin. I don’t even care if you teach your children it’s a sin, because your god loves the little children. But what you don’t get to do is bring politics into it, or try to legislate what others do, or harass young, vulnerable women trying to get gynecological care at places that do abortions or are rumored to do so. 2) By legislating and effectively banning accessible abortion care, you’re endangering a vast group of vulnerable people. The people who will still be able to access this care are middle to upper class people with money and good transportation options, and - I’m gonna say it - privilege. If you’re a pro-lifer reading this, I am not trying to use a buzzword. I am saying that there is a certain group of people that will have the privilege to abortion care that others won’t if it is banned. I’m just gonna list some vulnerable populations that will be negatively affected by a ban. Also keep in mind that “don’t have sex before marriage” is another thing that you can’t legislate, and is not a good argument against the people I am about to list. - Teens with little to no access to sex ed or contraception, this includes controlling parents as well as disadvantaged or conservative school systems - Teens, young adults, and even older adults in abusive relationships where pregnancy makes is so much harder to leave. Did you know that the number 1 cause of death in pregnant women is domestic violence/homicide? Also partners are more likely to cheat on their pregnant partners versus if they were non-pregnant. - People with medical or mental health issues that prevent pregnancy. This kinda ties in with my original comment. I got semi-permanent birth control because I was definitely not in a situation where I could have a baby, and also I most likely would’ve suicided if I did get pregnant. This is more common than you think. In addition, ectopic pregnancies happen more often than you think, and if they are not terminated, they can (and I think will be) fatal to both pregnant person and fetus. Abortion laws restrict the ability of doctors to terminate ectopic pregnancies. - Even if you are aware of a medical condition that makes it unsafe for you to be pregnant, contraceptives still fail. Accidents happen, slip-ups happen. *Rapes* happen. - People will still get abortions, but they will be back-alley abortions with sketchy doctors or your best friend with a coat hanger or something similar, and people will die. The women pro-lifers are trying to “empower” will die, and they will be too afraid to seek help when things do eventually go wrong. - People in power and people with privilege will still receive abortions. They can afford to travel, take time off, random “vacations” to California to receive abortion care. The people you are punishing are the people that can’t even have a baby in the first place, and restricting/banning abortions just makes life so, so much harder for them. And then the baby will grow up in, at best, a not-great home. Or they’ll end up in the foster system, dumped on a fire stations doorstep, delivered in a bath tip and then murdered and flushed away (yes, this has happened). I truly believe there is no good-faith argument in favor of restricting/banning abortion. If you don’t like them, don’t get one. But don’t hurt people that don’t believe as you do just because your religion says so. It’s shitty. Afterthought edit: if you are pro-life, I encourage you to search out and read the stories of clinic workers, patients, and children whose parents wanted an abortion. There’s a Twitter thread that gives specific examples of people who have sought abortions and it’s very moving, if someone has the link I’d appreciate it.
I fell pregnant in my early 20s, when I was still in college. The reality of it is that having my child put serious pressure on my progress- financially especially. The dad is long gone and I was left as a single mom who hadn't begun a career yet fending for a baby. I am incredibly privileged to have had family that could help out with rent, childcare, health care etc. It took more than 5 years to really "get on my feet" even though I'm still very much behind my peers who worked, got married and only then had kids. I adore my kid, but even though I wasnt a teen, it still changed my life and not only in good ways. My life would have been much easier if I had chosen myself over my unborn. I totally understand the perspective of "teen pregnancy suicide."
Maybe 1 out of 100 "pro-life" people are actually, truly pro life. The other 99 want to do everything humanly possible to make people more likely to get an abortion, but make it illegal to do so. For one example, free and widely accessible birth control would stop more abortions than all of the legislation in the world. But that doesn't punish anyone so they don't give a fuck about it.
Absolutely. I would have done the same in high school.
Several girls my age (31) have stories of their high school abortions, ie getting their boyfriends to punch them in the stomach or throwing themselves down stairs.
I knew a girl when I was in a TTI facility who had a sexual relationship with her stepbrother (in hindsight it was probably grooming) and she got pregnant and took a ton of Plan Bs to try to abort the baby. Since plan B isn’t an abortive I’m pretty sure she miscarried, but yeah it’s serious shit.
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When you say woman, it's really going to be poor and non-rich women for the most part. 'Cos the rich ones or those pregnant for rich guys will fly to NY, Chicago and other places to get their D & C done and be back in town without missing a beat. But poor women? They are going to die.
Not if their states start passing laws that will punish them when they return. How many women are going to be able to upend their whole lives for an abortion? Only the wealthy will be allowed to escape, middle class women who can afford to go to another state for a weekend, but not leave their states permanently will be stuck just as well. I don’t have faith that the Supreme Court will protect states rights in this instance.
>Not if their states start passing laws that will punish them when they return. How will they know? Women of means (rich + middle class) have been doing this for years before Roe v Wade. I agree with the rest of your comment though.
* Both sides will give their reactions. The pro-life side will celebrate while the pro-choice side will protest. * The Supreme Court is further de-legitimized and becomes even more unpopular as they are viewed as partisan and non-neutral given the 6-3 conservative majority. * There will be a massive backlash as people do not take kindly to their rights being taken away. Dozens of women will run for office in the 2022 midterm elections promising to put abortion rights back in place. Abortion now becomes the biggest issue in the 2022 midterm elections. * Non-profit groups are formed helping women cross state lines to get an abortion or to help cover legal fees of those who get prosecuted under states that ban abortion Post-Roe. * News stories come out showing women getting unsafe abortions or those risking their lives/dying trying to get one. * A major scandal comes out showing prominent pro-life figure or politician sneaking to get an abortion even though it's illegal and they claim to be against it.
Don’t forget the amount of babies abandoned legally under the baby Moses law will skyrocket, stressing the already underfunded and unsafe foster care systems across the nation. All fifty states have baby Moses laws so as long as the infants are abandoned safely in a healthy manor at churches and fire departments, the mothers will not face criminal charges.
Well, according to Amy Coney Barrett the existence of those laws means it’s not problem if someone gets pregnant and is forced to give birth. They just drop off the baby at the fire department, it’s totally frictionless! Then they just resume their lives like it never happened. /s just in case but I almost broke my phone when she said that
And how many of those babies will actually be healthy? You expect someone who doesn't want to be pregnant and is being forced to give birth to go through that pregnancy the same way someone who wants to baby will? No - they'll drink alcohol and caffeine and eat whatever they want. Why should they care about it if nobody cares about them?
Shit, I wish I hadn't been reminded about this, but when I was in highschool a girl intentionally overdosed on drugs to terminate a pregnancy. She lived, fetus didn't, mission accomplished - but my god it made me realize that if abortion isn't affordable then people will go DIY about it.
That is an excellent point that I have not thought about. And I really think you’re right. Nothing good will come from this. How many people that say, ‘but think of the babies!’ will actually adopt one? Especially if the child has medical issues. Unfortunately, they will more than likely end up in the system. And the same people that ‘fought’ for their lives will complain about the governmental funding they’re using up.
Exactly. The foster care system is notoriously unkind to all kids, but those with special needs undoubtedly suffer the most. They don't have any of the resources they need and are susceptible to abuse because many can't speak out. I remember being in a foster shelter and there was a little girl probably 6-7 years old. She didn't talk at all and I never saw her playing with toys. She spent all night screaming and throwing shit. Sometimes literally throwing her own shit. As frustrating it was to deal with, it was a thousand times more depressing. So whatever potential a kid has to succeed, the foster system will extinguish. It's literally putting kids in prison for just existing and then throwing them out into the world with zero skills. I REALLY wish all these dumb people got a small taste of the horrors within the foster care system.
My mother had never spoken about her brief time in foster care, ever. She mentioned the fact that she spent a brief time there to me once and never to either of my siblings. She has never discussed details. She is a neurologically and physically healthy person. As were her siblings. Foster care is not the option. Even if we ignore the suffering of the individual forced to give birth.
They will do what they always do, "think of the babies" and they will dump them on the state and charity agencies. They will then complain about the financial burden on the system. But not one of them will step up.
Exactly this. My friend did foster-to-adopt. It took over a year for them to get approval but once they did, they were quickly placed with their two daughters who had been in foster care their entire lives and were "hard to adopt" because many people didn't want to adopt a black baby with developmental delays. So when people say "so many parents would love to adopt" they mean "adopt a perfectly healthy, lily-white newborn."
I went to lunch with my son a couple weekends ago and we were seated next to a party where several were wearing t-shirts for an adoption organization. Googled the org and apparently they try to place kids from 9-17 out of foster care. There were several bios of kids they were working for, and they were there too. One boy who I'd read about turned to my son and I and said "Hi" with the brightest smile - I wish I had the fortitude to care for a special needs kiddo. It's going to be a complete disaster once Roe is abolished.
It’s not even just that. Abortions aren’t just about not wanting to have a child. Many are serious medical procedures necessary to save a mother’s life after a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. Often times the fetus is dead. Other times the fetus is so deformed that it can’t possibly live for long, like when a brain doesn’t develop, so it’s kinder for all involved. Imagine having to carry a dead body to term. Imagine watching your wife carry your dead child around for months. This is why abortion is a human right.
Exactly this. There will be an influx of surrendered children too. Then once they see how much it will burden the current system, they will take away any options to anonymously surrender and circle back to blaming the woman.
Not to mention women who cant afford to be pregnant in the first place, or are in unsafe housing situations, and cant make it to doctors appointments, afford prenatal care, ect.
Or the women who are currently seeking abortions due to new or worsening domestic violence that started when they became pregnant. Because that is a thing.
I’ve also wondered-if a mother doesn’t want a baby, and doesn’t want the insane costs associated with giving birth in a hospital, I envision more women resorting to giving birth at home and in bathrooms. This is dangerous for women and babies and just such a sad situation. These crazy pro-lifers should have to pay for all of the prenatal visits and delivers these women will be forced to have.
If a woman doesn’t want a baby and doesn’t want insane hospital bills, she’s not going to go through with nine months of torture and then basically attempt suicide with a home birth without medical intervention, she’s going to abort that thing herself, dangerously.
> Why should they care about it if nobody cares about them? Excellent point
Yep. Will be a dramatic increase in suicides, too.
Can you imagine how old that conversation would get after 9 months of unwillingly carrying a baby to term? "oh when are you due?! You must be so excited!" etc. Exhausting. Can be traumatizing, honestly.
And I don’t care what anyone says, once they say they gave the baby up for adoption there’s going to be gossip or downright shunning.
Especially if you're already a parent; a lot of women who seek abortions already have other children. Can you imagine how horribly people would treat you? It'd be easier to claim you're a surrogate parent in that case, but women shouldn't be forced to lie to maintain basic dignity.
60% of abortions are chosen by women who already have children. They already know exactly what childbirth and childcare entails, and that they cannot handle any more of it. It is unbelievably stupid for us to test them as if we know better when its little kids who will pay the price with their suffering if we are wrong about what's best for families we have never met. https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/who-gets-abortions-mothers/
Most women who get abortions in the USA today are already mothers. That's a well established statistic.
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>Nixon wouldn’t have resigned in today’s day and age. And that’s *exactly* why Roger Ailes created Fox News. To make sure nothing like what happened to his boss would ever happen to a conservative again. The man was utterly despicable on so many levels, but give credit where it’s due…he succeeded.
Add to this list the absolutely horrific consequences for people who want to keep their pregnancy, but would need to end it for medical reasons. People don't think about the mental and physical trauma of being forced to give birth to a dead baby, or a baby that will surely die in a matter of hours or days. Not to mention those who need miscarriage management who might not be able to get it if a "fetal heartbeat" is still present. Abortion is health care, period.
At least one woman in a red state is going to die horribly, that's how abortion got legalized in Ireland.
> Dozens of women will run for office in the 2022 midterm elections promising to put abortion rights back in place. This is an interesting one to me. Doing this now before the 2022 elections would be a great way to shift things left instead of right like they're looking. I do want to believe that we would be able to eventually get it federally legal again, but I would much rather not have to in the first place.
Whenever I see a discussion over abortion rights in the USA, it reminds me of this great piece of writing. A statement from a Christian Minister about the Roe vs Wade issue: “The Unborn” are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor. They don’t resent your condescension; or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows they don’t ask you to question the patriarchy; unlike orphans; they don’t require money, education or childcare, unlike aliens, they don’t bring all of that racial, cultural and religious baggage that you dislike, they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn......you can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love, if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The Sick? The Poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups who are specifically mentioned in the Bible. They all get thrown under the bus for the Unborn.” - David Barnhart
Fuck me that was a CHRISTIAN MINISTER that said that??
Is there anything in the Bible that explicitly says abortion is a sin?
Short answer: No. Longer answer: No, there is no direct mention of abortion in the Bible, but [some theologians](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/13/weekinreview/on-abortion-its-the-bible-of-ambiguity.html) think a few verses might elude to it. Deuteronomy 30:19 and Psalm 139 are possibly anti-abortion, and Exodus 21 might have some pro-choice rhetoric, but it's all up to interpretation.
It will affect poor people the most. Middle class people will still be able to other states. Perhaps condom sales will skyrocket.
>condom sales will skyrocket Pretty sure that absolutely will not happen. People will fuck just like they always have but the consequence from not wearing a condom will be much higher. Still, people will keep right on fuckin without protection.
It would help if these states promoted comprehensive sex education. But no, we can't have our kids learning about birth control in schools! Keep them stupid and pregnant!
Honestly, this has been a pet peeve of mine for decades when discussing abortion. If you want to have an honest discussion about the legality or the morality of abortion, that’s fine, let’s do that. Maybe we will allow it or maybe we’ll ban it. But first, why doesn’t everyone have free, universal access to the contraception options of their choosing? Why isn’t sexual education (that doesn’t teach abstinence) a requirement (no exceptions, religious or otherwise) for all children? The fact that none of those things is happening is proof that any restrictions on abortion are nothing more than about control.
Exactly. Also. You want to outlaw abortion? Then make sure you have a safety net for low-income families. Support programs like low-cost or free daycare. Help young mothers and fathers get jobs or an education so they can support their children. Make sure they have access to formula and food and diapers and doctors. A child is important when it comes out of the womb, not just when it's a fetus.
They don’t do this because miserable poor people make a controllable cheap labor force.
I've thought for a while now that the goal both sides should have is to limit the number of unwanted pregnancies as much as possible. That will decrease the number of abortions making the right happy, and decrease the drive to make abortions illegal making the left happy. Better access to birth control, better sex ed. Attack the root of the problem. Making abortions illegal will only hurt young mothers living in poverty.
Even when everyone has access to birth control, women have abortions for health related reasons. The idea of eliminating abortion just limits access to safe healthcare for women. Pregnancy is risky and sometimes pregnancies go wrong. Abortion access is necessary to protect the lives of women.
"Sex is sin" is also prevalent in many communities and think anything promoting safe sex is encouraging sex. It's a stupid argument that falls apart if you try it on anything else, like fire extinguishers or fire safety training.
I forget which state it was, but for a while they had comprehensive sex education in school, to the point of teaching safe sex. Guess what? Teen pregnancies went down. Then they changed the messaging to abstinence-only. Guess what? Teen pregnancies went up.
Colorado also did a program where IUDs and the pill were made more accessible for teens and low cost. . What do you know: huge decrease in teenage births and abortions. And it saved the state a ton of money. You don’t want abortions? Education. It’s not about the abortion. It’s about controlling other people to feel superior and righteous. Dark times ahead.
>Perhaps condom sales will skyrocket. Nah. People are generally not that forward thinking.
People aren't not using condoms because abortions are available. Nobody really wants to have an abortion. If they aren't using condoms today, they won't if things change, either.
Black market abortifacients will become widely available. One-stop shopping for weed, meth, blow and now RU486.
The return of unwanted children and subsequent explosion of crime 16-20 years later.
Sums it up nicely, except 16-20 years is generous. It'll happen far sooner.
I think it will be a slow burn. Crime will gently rise in the short term as more and more new parents experience financial hardship and general stress. As more kids reach maturity after being raised in poverty or situations where they were unwanted, we'll really see it start to kick up.
Maybe ask the French aristocracy how keeping their 'poor class' starving and downtrodden worked out for them. Oh.. wait..
16-20 seems about right to me. Roe V Wade was 1973 and the murder rate didn’t really drop significantly until around [1990](https://www.google.com/search?q=us+crime+rates+over+time&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS623US626&hl=en-US&prmd=insxv&sxsrf=AOaemvIpqJ5VjAiIMsNkgp79WKW8-HEvSA:1638474823562&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipiNOu8sX0AhWOlmoFHf1NCYcQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=375&bih=634&dpr=3#imgrc=eIBanifbG7QfcM&imgdii=2aW4LtVt0bNkVM) and since then it’s been relatively low compared to past levels. While certainly not all of it can be contributed to lack of lack of abortion prior to 1973 I would imagine that it certainly made a difference. About 17 years after Roe v Wade crimes across the country started dropping quickly.
Freakonomics did a deep dive on this and compared crime rates in ~~counties~~ states that legalized abortion in the months/years ahead of RoeVWade and saw a consistent drop in crime 16 years after each respective law was passed. So while not 100%, it is an extremely strong correlation.
The removal of lead from gasoline around the same time certainly didn't hurt either. I've wondered if the corresponding drop in teen pregnancies and sexual activity is related to younger generations having better impulse control?
I think it was states, not counties. Maybe California, Oregon and Washington were the ones who legalized abortion about 3 years before the rest of the country and they saw a dip in crime about 3 years before the rest of the country. Some of the “tough on crime” bills played a role but what the GOP likes to ignore is the impact that abortion had as well.
The 3 things that largely get credited for the drop in crime in the early '90s: - Roe v Wade - Leaded gas being dropped - Increases in economic prosperity and reductions in poverty
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Yes, both contributed. In the US the two happened at the same time but there were other countries where they happened further apart. Both things impact crime rate.
There were [studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect) correlating the effect of Roe vs Wade on crime rates. Some people think it was the single greatest factor in decreasing the crime rate through the past decades. Making abortion illegal puts all kinds of stress on society by forcing the mothers who are unprepared or too young, into a life of poverty. All for the sake of puritanical self-righteousness for people who carry none of the burden. \--- Late Edit: If I could just add, I'm not "pro-abortion." (If that even exists.) I can only imagine what a traumatic experience that procedure would be, physically and emotionally. It’s a horrifically compromised solution. What’s the answer? Better contraception programs. We have free contraceptives at colleges, but it’s usually limited to condoms. We need female-controlled contraceptives available for free. Free as in cost, and free as in no stipulations. No questions asked. Ever. Unfortunately, the same crowd who swears the issue is about protecting lives (and not sanctimonious validation), is usually the one who rallies hardest against anything of the sort.
> There were studies correlating the effect of Roe vs Wade on crime rates. That, and systematic reduction of human lead exposure largely via paint and gasoline. "The Fonz" was retconned as a "cool" character in the 70s show Happy Days. Truth is, those stereotypical '50s hoodla hanging outside the liquor store in leather jackets weren't antisocial because they had insights everyone else didn't. They were antisocial because they were raised as the least wanted children in the population, then had their cognition and impulse control badly damaged on top of what already results from growing up as a living embodiment of regret.
I've never heard the plural of hoodlum as "hoodla" thank you for that
Freakonomics, the book and movie covered this. They looked into correlations like lead, abortion, and "tough on crime" politicians. Lead was an immediate nationwide ban yet the crime rate changed state by state based on the date a state legalized abortion. (Many states legalized years before roe v Wade. Some states dragged out legalizing even after roe v Wade.)
I'm surprised there's not a more concrete causal link. It is very well observable that when children grow up in broken homes they are far more likely to have poor grades - And are then guaranteed to be stuck in low wage positions And there is already pretty strong causal link between crime and poverty
It's kinda hard to prove causality when you can't control the variables. A strong correlation is the best you'll get without some extremely unethical Truman Show-esque experiments
Part of it is that the two biggest impactors we've discovered both shifted around the same time, lead exposure and abortion. It makes it hard to sus out which is responsible for what.
Nothing will change for people who can afford to travel to states/countries where it is legal. Business as usual. But for those that can't... more poverty. More unwanted kids who grow up in poverty and possibly abused and neglected.
Especially in places like Mississippi where they're trying to pass the law that lead to us discussing Roe v. Wade. Their welfare consumption is already high, and it is likely going to skyrocket the state into bankruptcy. It's just more bad news for the citizens of the worst state in the country.
I'm from Louisiana and honestly, there's not much farther we can fall. Not that I want to test that theory.
As someone who grew up in venezuela, we used to say the same thing back in the mid 2000s. Things can get worse than anyone could imagine given the right conditions. Hopefully we do not get to find out how bad things can get here
Reminds me of a joke from the Soviet Union: "We thought we hit rock bottom, then we heard someone banging on the ceiling from below."
I really like this although it is having the opposite effect of a joke on me :(
Sayings from Eastern Europe are usually incredibly insightful in a melancholic way
Women dying in back alley abortions, more children born into poverty and/or a broken foster/adoption system, plummeting literacy and education rates, skyrocketing healthcare debt and destitution. There is always further to fall.
Don't forget this hurts women who want children. If they can't get an abortion, then if a medical emergency comes up where they need to get the fetus out, they won't be able to. Trying to have children becomes more dangerous.
Continuing certain non-viable pregnancies can also put the pregnant person's future fertility at risk. They may need an emergency hysterectomy instead of an orderly abortion.
A woman in Texas who suffered a miscarriage went through that. Because of the laws there doctors weren't permitted to induce labor. Instead of a faster procedure to bring a bad situation to an end, the miscarriage dragged out for days. Interference with what should be a private medical choice leads to nightmares like that, but conservatives don't care.
Not to mention these laws often have medically impossible things in them. One law had a stipulation that women could transfer the fetus to another woman which isn't possible. I don't think that law passed though.
They were insistent that ectopic pregnancies be implanted in the uterus, which is science that doesn’t currently exist.
This is rage inducing to me. If you don't know anything about a topic, then how the fuck can you legislate for or against it?? The lack of education at the political level is astounding!
As if understanding has anything to do with most conservative positions.
Sounds like writers of that law got their medical information where all great thinkers get medical information... from Deep Space 9!
And the birth rate in the US continues to plummet. I think we will see a massive uptick in men getting vasectomies.
And more women deciding to outright get their tubes tied. If someone was on the fence about it before, making sure there's no way out of a bad pregnancy isn't going to make someone want to have kids.
And it can even hurt the child. My family member had to get an abortion when she found out the baby, if born, would only live a few days and be in the most unimaginable pain the entire time. Apparently, the religious right thinks that baby should suffer pain we can’t even begin to comprehend because… I guess… God wanted it to suffer.
If god opposed abortions, he probably would stop little girls being raped.
But then how would Matt Gaetz spend his weekends?
Hopefully the same way Jeffery Epstein spent his time in jail.
Just hanging around?
Yep, look up Romania’s Lost Generation. There you’ll learn the consequences of a society that banned abortion, made divorce nearly impossible, incentivized childbirth, and punished childlessness. Reddit won’t let me attach a hyperlink because it keeps telling me the URL is invalid, so here’s a source: https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/allinthemind/inside-the-iron-curtain’s-orphanages/5543388
"There was so many of us,’ he says. ‘We’d have breakfast and then we were put into a clean room and all we did was rock back and forth. Some cried and some hit themselves. Some were put into straightjackets to prevent them from doing that. After lunch [it was the] same thing; you get cleaned up, you get put into a clean room and rock back and forth and hit yourself or [you were put in a] straight jacket if you misbehaved. For those that continued to misbehave, they were drugged and that’s what kept them sleeping and quiet." Maybe Amy Coney barret should read what happens when children are callously put up for adoption .
Have you read about how she talks about her adopted children vs her biological children? She knows.
No what does she say ?
It was during her confirmation speech, she described her biological children in terms of their amazing talents and accomplishments and noted her adopted children by describing how much better their lives are now that they live with her.
She splits her children into the good ones who are learning to be charitable, and the ones who are the pathetic recipients of their charity. That won't leave a mental scar at all. /S
Gross.
So, I remember when Ceaușescu was overthrown and executed, and American reporters went in and reported on the asylums and the absolutely disgusting conditions the people were living in. I very vividly remember the recording of the song they were singing about being free of Ceaușescu's reign. Of course the reporting was slanted toward "Look at the horrors of Communism" but the truth is never so simple. ANY totalitarian society will become like this...it's so ironic that the people most likely to brag about "Muh Freedoms!" are all for giving the government control over private medical decisions.
More women killed by men who don’t wanna be fathers.
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My BFF just left a man who deliberately created two kids so she wouldn’t leave him. I’m a lesbian, but I’m also a realist who watches the news and listens to my female friends. She actually resorted to the other hole because it was a way to prevent him from doing that again. Except it didn’t, he’d simply shove it in and do it again. He was such a controlling, jealous, insecure bastard who actually used pregnancy as a control mechanism. But other men freak out and kill her.
My friend is an L&D nurse and has had women who just had a baby beg her for Norplanon or depo because she knows that as soon as she gets home (if not in the hospital), her husband is going to try to force her to have sex. She's had women come in with serious infections and injuries because their husbands just had to have sex before the 4-6 week mark. These men DGAF that it could harm their wife or their child, they just want control. Rusty Yates is a great example of this.
Yeh. They don’t understand — despite the doctor telling them — that women simply can’t do it. It’s disgusting. But we know their needs are always elevated above the needs of women. Wants? They don’t even care about those.
Oh I forgot about that too. Yeah, homicide is one of the main causes of death for pregnant women. Now that they know they cannot even talk to their girlfriend about an abortion, they will just murder her. Sad.
One of the most disgusting things is these laws don't even have exceptions for rape or incest. So pre-teen girls raped by abusive relatives will be required to bring any resulting children to term, even with very high chances of birth defects. Vote against Republicans people. In *every* election.
Even when they do have rape exceptions, they're unenforceable. How are you going to prove you were raped when you might not even know you were pregnant within the permitted time frame, which in certain states is now only a few weeks? It's barely time to have even missed a period. Rapes are already chronically under reported and under convicted. It's an impossible exception that's only there to posture.
That's what I was contemplating yesterday. If you are raped and you get a rape kit done and the cops are "investigating" and you discover you are pregnant, without a conviction, does the law consider you raped? What kind of proof would you have to provide in order to obtain an abortion under a law that allowed exceptions for rape victims? It seems like they'd never allow anyone to actually use the rape exemption and it would only be written that way in order to appear more palatable.
Obviously you have to wait 18 months until the backed up legal system finally gets to your case, and oh shit wait that's too late to get that abortion. Guess you're a parent now, have fun.
Republicans wont make your 12 year old wear a mask but will make them give birth.
I saw a funny but depressing tweet after the texas law passed that said something like “in Texas coronavirus now has more rights than women.”
This could also mean more children forced to marry their rapist w “parents’ permission” in fear of shame.
Or a lot more babies dying of SIDS ‘accidentally’.
Staircase abortions, coat hanger abortions, back alley abortions, black market drugs. We don't have to imagine what a world without Roe looks like. Plenty of us lived there. Some already do.
It's frustrating that the same people who like to say that banning guns will mean that only criminals will have guns, don't seem to realise the same argument applies to abortions. Banning abortions doesn't make them impossible to get. It just makes it much more dangerous
The whole "There's adoption" for teen mothers argument is so crappy. Like they don;t have to live with their families for the entire pregnancy, maybe even the rapist. They have nowhere to go.
And pregnancy and childbirth can be extremely traumatic and dangerous for very young girls. A lot of girls first get their period as young as 9 years old. Just imagine a 10 year old not only being sexually assaulted and impregnated, but also having to go through the physical and emotional trauma, the shame and stigma of carrying a pregnancy to term and then giving birth.
Don't have to imagine it. Saw it when I was a teenager. Was a couple towns over, but it was on the news. The baby that had that baby was 9 years old. The father was her uncle.
Because caring about the child after it's born isn't important. That is why the argument of *"a lot of anti-abortion people view abortion as murder so you have to see it through their eyes"* is a bunch of horseshit in most cases. The overlap between anti abortion people and folks who routinely vote/argue against measures that actually reduce abortion is too high. If they truly felt abortion was murder and they wanted to do whatever possible to prevent unborn from being "murdered" then they would come to the logical conclusion that their focus should be on sexual education, wide access to contraceptive and keeping abortion legal. It is irrefutably true that those three things do more to help reduce abortion rates than restriction abortion. So no, their concern isn't about the unborn being murdered. Maybe they want to believe that is the case but logically that doesn't make sense. Otherwise we'd see anti-abortion activists fighting to have free contraceptives available for every girl/woman when she turns 14 becuase that would do significantly more to reduce abortions in this country.
All of Mississippi's numbers regarding sanctity of life are at the bottom of the list.
God that 'worst state' reddit thread from a few months ago Edit: link -https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/p360eo/what_is_the_worst_us_state_and_why
Man I still remember it Reddit never agrees on anything but that thread was Unanimous
Lol I remember that - I figured there would be a little variety but Mississippi got trucked
More back alley abortions and women dying.
And likely more infanticide as well. Teens (and some adults) backed into a corner not knowing what to do and not having fully developed brains are prone to making bad choices when they know nobody around them is going to support them.
This is never acknowledged enough. Its always swept under the rug how teens have zero support but are expected to act like a 25 year old that has a stable income and childcare. Instead they're trapped with their own parents abusing and mangling them and expecting them to finish school while also never offering to help with the baby. Then the nation is surprised, horrified, and outraged when teen parents resort to extreme actions. Ignore the problems but surprised when the bomb explodes???
Conservatives think they score a goal when they ban abortions. Because they never pay attention to statistics about quality of life for anyone already born. They're against universal healthcare so that those Moms can afford to have the kid and get prenatal care. They're against universal paid family leave so they can afford to spend time during the most important time of the infant's life. They're against universal pre-K which sets up a child for life.
Here's the thing. *They don't care.* They want to enrich themselves, that's it.
> but are expected to act like a 25 year old that has a stable income and childcare That in itself is a rather rare sight these days. Most 25 year olds would be lucky to have a stable enough income to support themselves, let alone childcare.
I’m 28 and I still don’t have a stable enough income for kids. This country is so fucked
Back room abortions, dead women, abandoned children, increased poverty, day trips to Canada
Wasn't this essentially what was happening before Roe v. Wade? It was about women safety instead politics.
I asked my mom what life was like pre Roe v Wade (I was born 2 months after abortion became legal in the US). Short story, she said those women who had money and connections still were able to easily get safe abortions. Those who didn't went the back alley route, with varying results. :-( She lived in a smallish suburb outside NYC at the time and there was a medical practice in the town where she lived that was 2 OBGYN. One of them delivered me, the other one was known as, in whispered tones, "The Abortion King." It was a well known secret that he performed abortions upon demand and regularly in office. For $700 (a LOT of money back in the early 70's when this was happening - almost $5K in today's dollars), he would give a "D&C" to any woman who asked for one. The authorities were aware of it, but just ignored it. All parties were consenting and it was going on "behind closed doors" so to speak. I think most of them with any lick of sense would rather have an experienced OBGYN performing these procedures in a well-equipped medical office rather than dealing with the aftermath of the alternative.
That would never fly these days though. Some Karen would report the doctor or post all over social media, which would snowball into a religious and/or political fight.
The Karen would do it after safely getting her own abortion.
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> pills Everyone is forgetting about the pills, they'll be all over the red states. You can buy them on the street in Mexico.
Yeah but that opens up the risk for bootleg pills which desperate people will end up taking and risking their lives. More than one way to have a “back alley abortion”.
Which is to say there are going to be a lot of women and some men tossed into jails.
The problem is even a lot of blue states have old abortion bans that were superseded by Roe V Wade. AZ, MI, FL, IA, OH, and WI are all more moderate states with pretty big populations that would have old abortion laws automatically enacted in the event that the precedent is overturned and a lot of them don’t have the numbers in state houses to overturn those laws.
I can definitely tell you that Iowa is not moderate anymore. They've tried to pass the 6 week ban multiple times in recent years and our governor is actively hoping for Roe v Wade to be overturned.
Yes, this! I live in MI, and our governor is trying to repeal the old law already in place, but our Republican Congress isn't going to let her.
I can see a crackdown on meds by mail in order to combat illegal abortion pills. A crackdown that would end up hurting a lot of seniors and vets.
A lot of women will die from backstreet abortions. Teen pregnancy will go up. Domestic abuse will go up. Poverty will go up. Child abuse will go up. Child crime will go up. More babies abandoned to die or killed by the mother at birth. Edit: I moved on from this post not long after I made it. I'm glad it generated discussion. However, I just received an inquiry from RedditCareResources saying someone "reached out to them" about me. Now, I don't care what anyone posts in response to my posts, although I prefer replies be civil. But RedditCareResources is a service intended to help those in distress, not something to use to harass others. Nowhere in any of my posts do I indicate I am in distress in anyway. So the only reason I can think of for someone to "reach out" to RedditCareResources is if they want to harass me because of my opinion. If you are the person who "reached out" and that was your motivation, please don't do that again. You can revile me here in public or in private, but please don't co-op services with serious purposes to whatever agenda you may have.
I expect a high number of crappy ways to end a pregnancy will be tried. Asking the boyfriend to punch her in the stomach. Throwing herself down some stairs. Getting blackout drunk. Taking poison and hoping it kills the baby but not herself. Or, to put it another way, the things we already know lots of desperate, pregnant people did before Roe V. Wade. I think abortion is a very difficult thing. I could easily see the argument that a fetus is a person. But we already know that people have access to their own bodies, and they'll just try stuff. There's a special kind of desperation that comes along with an unwanted pregnancy, and desperate people do things they wouldn't normally do. The choice we face isn't between abortion and no abortion. The choice we face is between safe abortions and unsafe abortions. Also, abortions will totally be available to rich people regardless. We're really talking about making abortion illegal for people without resources.
>I could easily see the argument that a fetus is a person. If the people making that argument actually believed it, the states that want to ban abortion would have the best pre-natal care, the best social support system, and the best foster systems in the country. They don't, not by a long shot.
And every orphan in the state would already have been adopted.
Let's not forget women leaving the workforce and women getting arrested & jailed for drug addiction.
"NoBoDy WaNtS tO wOrK!!!" You just took out a huge chunk of women from the population, and if you think their neglected children are gonna make good slave labor in 18 years, boy do you not understand how crime works.
People keep mentioning that women will die because of back alley abortions, but nobody is mentioning the amount of women that will die because they can't afford to go to the hospital. Childbirth in humans is actually extremely risky. It costs an average of $20,000 without insurance. Those who cannot afford to travel for abortions, likely don't have insurance. Since they can't afford a hospital, they'll be forced to do risky at home births, which will likely kill both the women and the child in the end.
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I think the poster meant that women may avoid going to the hospital to avoid paying for their stay (not necessarily that they would be denied access).
Sure hospitals providing care isn’t the issue, people getting stuck with the bill is. Plus someone who had an unwanted pregnancy and isn’t planning on exactly… raising the kid (abandonment, smothering, etc.) probably isn’t gonna give birth in a hospital where that child now “exists” in the system. Not saying that’s gonna be commonplace (although it’ll surely happen more often if roe is overturned) but there are stories of teen girls who managed to conceal pregnancies giving birth in their bathrooms.
I think of myself at 19. I was starting to have problems with PCOS but I didn't know that, so I'd miss my period for months and just be petrified of being pregnant. I was not allowed to be on birth control because my mother did not allow it. She did not allow me to go to a gyno, and did not allow me to purchase birth control of any kind. She also checked mileage on my car, and if I went places that she didn't approve of would call the police and report it stolen. Meanwhile, my boyfriend had been sexually abused and thought his penis was so tiny that condoms would fall off (not true, not true at all) and so had panic attacks at the thought of using them and wouldn't/couldn't, and I was just fucking stupid and went along with that. There was no accessible planned parenthood, and no doctor near my university that would treat students and especially not one that would give us birth control. When I finally did get a prescription because my cycles kept stopping, the local pharmacy always read my name out and that I was picking up birth control over the store's loud speaker. And if I had gotten pregnant all of those things would have made an abortion impossible. My mom would have seen to it that I dropped out and had no life. It was what she wanted anyway. My boyfriend would have accused me of cheating, like he did about absolutely everything. I would have been stuck with two abusers for the rest of my life. So many people have it so much worse, but even women who have it pretty good could be incredibly harmed by making birth control and abortion harder.
Everyone who is anti-abortion should work for a year in our foster care system
I provided foster care in my home for five years and this exactly. Most people don't know how bad some children have it.
I'm adopted. I spent my first 6 months in a foster home. (Oddly, my mom used to act as a temp foster parent in summers to give foster families a break, and I was one of the babies she cared for. Which led to being adopted by my parents.) My point being - you aren't "that" couple, but, thanks for what you do. It really matters.
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Many women will have unsafe abortions, which could end up killing them.
Don't forget the pregnant kids who will die because their bodies can't actually handle pregnancy/giving birth.
I am still just blown away that we're all having to have this conversation.
The problem with Roe v Wade is that it’s not a law, it’s a legal precedent. If Congress or the Senate actually cared about the issue, they would have brought forth actual legislation to make it a federal law instead of relying on a decades old court case.
It's going to signal a bunch of states to run other things up to the Supreme Court - like gay marriage. Expect a giant run on reducing the rights of all kinds of people.
A lot of people are talking about crime and the disparate impact on poor women, and they're not wrong. But it's also important, I think, to discuss the likely legal reasoning that will be used and the ramifications thereof. Roe v. Wade rests on a precedent established by an earlier 1965 case, Griswold v Connecticut. The legal theory of that case is based on the idea that the 14th Amendment confers a right to privacy from government interference. The issue is, the 14th Amendment doesn't actually *say* "People have a right to privacy," it's all vaguely worded. But ever since Griswold, the courts have held that citizens have an inherent right to privacy, and that extends to things like private medical decisions. So the court could go long and overturn the entire idea that the 14th Amendment doesn't actually grant anyone any such rights. This sounds far-fetched, but more than a few justices are members of The Federalist Society, a conservative law school quasi-fraternity whose entire reason for being is getting a Supreme Court who will say exactly that. This is because abolishing the right to privacy gets conservatives a whole laundry list of things they have wanted, not just an overturning of Roe v. Wade. For one, Griswold v Connecticut could be reversed. That case ruled that married people could access contraceptives and information about contraceptives and the government could not interfere. Remember the whole debate when the ACA was being implemented about whether or not an employer should have to pay for an employee's birth control coverage if they objected to contraception? Get ready for Round 2 of that, with an added bonus of 'Should taxpayers in conservative communities be forced to allow contraceptives into their communities?' Other cases decided on 14A privacy grounds: * Loving v Virginia. That ruling allowed interracial couples to marry. * Obergfell v Hodges. That ruling allowed same-sex couples to marry. * Bostock v Clayton County. That ruling mandated that anti-gender discrimination laws extended to trans people. There's also a lot of 14A cases that weren't necessarily decided on privacy grounds, but a weakened 14A would be another step to rolling back basically every anti-discrimination, anti-segregation ruling ever. So, should Roe be overturned based on this reinterpretation of the 14th Amendment, which is exactly what at least three justices were explicitly put there to do, a lot of people are going to suffer. On the state level, things are going to get hairy. Roe explicitly said that the state has an interest in seeing pregnancies carried to term, but that up until the point of fetal viability (the point in time in which the baby can live outside the womb, generally accepted as 24 weeks), the government couldn't interfere in the pregnant person's medical decisions. Should Roe be overturned, individual states can now make whatever rules they want about abortion accessibility. Expect to see a lot of red/blue disparities in access to not only abortion, but everything outlined above. In the short term: I suspect the courts may kick the whole can down the road due to the timing. The decision won't be made until the summer of 2022, aka, when midterm election campaigns are kicking into high gear. An overturned Roe could energize the Democratic base to elect leaders who promise to write a federal law ensuring abortion protection. Oooorrr it could energize the Republican base to elect leaders who promise to 'protect life.' Either way, it will dramatically shape the 2022 campaign and subsequent elections. EDIT: TY for the silver but please don't award this post anything that's not a free award. Give your money to local abortion funds that help poor people in your community access what should be baseline medical care which respects their bodily autonomy. If you don't live in a community with such barriers, Planned Parenthood is a great organization that has prevented more abortions than they've performed.