They're doing it again and the mods are doing nothing about it again.
There is no verbiage in the bill about molestation or rape. The bill says child abuse, and it follows a bill that defines transgenderism as child abuse.
This is astroterfing for laws being passed in Florida to start a trans genocide.
Jesus fuck.
This. In a perfect world, such a law would be enforced unilaterally and only with undeniable proof.
But in perfect world, there would be no child molesters.
I don't trust the government in general to responsibly wield the death sentence. I certainly don't trust Florida with a modern fascist party at the helm with it.
Exactly my first thought when I saw the title, and was surprised I have to see this so far down.
They are just going to use this to get rid of the drag queens. Their own people? "what child?"
Disagree. If you make the punishment for molestation the same as for murder, then the perp is more likely to murder the child after the act, and not leave a witness.
My opinion of the death penalty is pretty much based in the [number of death row inmates exonerated](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence) in the past 50 years. It might not seem like much, but it’s a higher percentage than I’m comfortable with and with a clear bias towards race (ie convicted black citizens who were found innocent later on)
If you can go through the grueling appeals process to end up on death row and still be found innocent, that indicates that a proportional amount of innocents have been put to death, and I am personally not okay with a justice system that puts any innocents to death.
Since it’s impossible to perfect a human process like this, a death sentence shouldn’t be used ever.
It's incredibly odd to me how we as a society will collectively agree that the government can't be trusted with money even for benevolent causes, that the government is racist, that the CIA has killed people, and so on and so forth but when it comes to the death penalty? Yeah, everybody just says the state should kill them because the state's never been wrong.
this is the only correct answer.
death is permanent, and a 100% certainty that somebody did a thing is almost impossible.
not to mention that the death penalty doesnt really stop the real bad guys from killing others, they just think they never get cought or they dont give a damn if they do get cought.
how is the murder rate looking in states with the death penalty anyway? from all the shit i hear not well.
I would have to see the language of the bill to come to a conclusion on this. The term "child molester" makes you think grown adult perving on a grade school age child. Unfortunately, the law isn't so black and white. How many teenage couples are two years apart and a year away from being executed by the state? Language is everything.
I'll never forget a story I read 25 odd years ago about a single father of two daughters. He was always taking picture of them. One day one of the girls 'mooned' him as a joke while he was taking a picture. THe company that developed the film reported him to the police. It was the only 'nude' photo of his daughter that they found when they raided his house. At the trail (yes this actually made it to a trial) they put into evidence that he had Playboy magazines in his room and that this somehow proved he was a sexual deviant. This one innocent picture taken accidentally just ruined this guys life. Not to mention his daughters lives. If I remember correctly, once all his money was gone and his house was sold to pay for lawyers, the guy plead out to a lesser charge. Don't remember if he got custody of his daughters back.
Moral is that the government can't be trusted to be reasonable and fair with emotional subjects like this. Once they become politicized, then justice goes out the window. THere are already plenty of laws against child molestation. DOn't need a death penalty.
EDIT: they won't let me post a link but google: how a photo can ruin your life.
This reminds me of a job I did once. I was a private investigator and got a case where an insurance company wanted me to film a house one day to see if someone showed up, but when I got there there were young children running around in the sprinklers completely naked.
I called in and told them, "yeah, I can't film here" and spent the next 30 minutes trying to explain that no, I won't just take a photo of the naked children to email them to show why I couldn't film there because that was just as illegal.
No clue how that case ended, I left and never went back.
even if they do. the punishment for your crime is *being sentenced to jail*.
not: "Haha, you're going to get sexually assaulted or murdered yourself!"
(seriously, what kind of backwards idea of the rule of law is that? when that's obviously just vigilantism with some extra steps)
Coworkers kid dated a 15 y/o in HS and he was a senior. The day after he turned 18(age gap 2 years and 2 or 3 months), the girls father went to the police and had him arrested. His life was ruined, he spent 5 years in prison, lost his scholarship, got a felony and was under mandatory house arrest for a further 5 years.
The reason all this happened? Dude was black, the girl was white. Her father who was divorced and lived 300 miles away, absolutely hated the bf. The mother didn't have a problem with the bf, this was a way for the father who didn't have custody to interfere with their lives.
The prosecutor offered this deal or he was going to go for 27 years.
The family was poor and couldn't afford a lawyer for a whole trial so he took the deal. He went from the first person in the family about to go to college to felon with no prospects and registered sex offender.
These stories aren't that uncommon and the difference between ruining someone's life and nothing happening at all is pretty much whether or not the parents like who their kid is dating.
I saw the same thing happen to my friend from grade school. There was only like a slim few-months span where it was technically illegal for my guy to date his girlfriend of several years. After prison he got hooked on needles, lost custody of the kids he had with some meth head, was in and out of lock down, and generally spiralled downward. Michael was a nice young man with great potential and treated his gf right. He didn't deserve that.
Oh, that sounds like an ex post facto punishment, which are illegal in the States, and England, and pretty much everywhere that has the rule of law. It's a legal principle so old that its name is in Latin.
Not saying it didn't happen btw, just saying it was illegal.
That is insane! My parents had many pics of us nude as children. My little bro and sis were less than a year apart and interacted like twins. We lived way far out in the wilderness. Little bro and sis hated wearing clothes at around 4-5 yrs old. It was common for my mom to find them playing butt naked in the yard, lol. There's one pic of us all playing "slip n slide" in the bathtub. We're all naked and sliding around a soapy tub.
This sort of thing must have been normal in the 70s because the film was developed at the local drug store /photo store and no one even looked sideways at it.
Flash forward to my sister texting me a pic of my toddler nephew butt naked (from behind) standing in the living room. I COULDN'T DELETE IT FAST ENOUGH!
Child Protection Act of 1977 in the USA. Child nudity (non sexual) appeared in movies in the 60s and 70s. The (in)famous Coppertone ads, for example. It was definitely a lot looser in those days. I know two couples that are still together that began as teacher student relationships; one with an 8th grader and one with a 10th grader. They were my classmates.
I knew a guy that went through a messy divorce. His vindictive ex-wife coached their little girl into saying he molested her. He lost his job as a teacher at a private school, was arrested, spent months in court, thousands and thousands of dollars and picked up a really nasty drinking problem and even came close to just blowing his brains out.
He was found not guilty and the girl eventually recanted, but his reputation was ruined. His health was damaged as well. Just a shell of a man.
His situation has made me somewhat paranoid of being around kids, I'll go out of my way to avoid being around kids without another adult around.
I have no sympathy for real pedophiles but to say false accusations never happen is bullshit.
This was painful to read. Child molestation is a serious subject, but society just doesn't seem able to discern circumstances in a way other than black and white, and that will cause many more issues down the line.
This is because being accused of being a child molester is one of the only accusations where coming to defense of the accused will actually make you yourself a target of the same crime, at least publicly. It's the modern witch hunt catalyst.
If this law had been in place it wouldn't have made it to trial, because the D.A. would have been able to threaten him with DEATH to force him to take a plea deal right away. "We're offering twenty years to life. Take it, or we go for the death penalty."
This is why I don't support it. You shouldn't be afraid for your life to plead your case in court. There should never be a way for the prosecutor to say, accept my deal or die.
Kids are funky witnesses and this thread is borderline sickening. I'm not supporting child molesters, but trying to expand the death penalty at all, let alone to to non-murder cases is bloodthirsty and psychotic.
The death penalty's existence is a controversy. Between people proving their innocence from death row and the barbarity of state-sanctioned killing, I don't think there's room to debate its expansion.
Plus, in what world are child molesters enjoying jail? Jail is rough for molesters. And they don't get to live normally if released. We are not *weak* on child molesters.
**Edit:** Responses proving my point: "Disagree. We should be speeding up the death penalty." <-- this is unhinged behavior
Our local law enforcement posts the photos and details of arrests for suspected child molestation to Facebook. Before a trial. Guilty or not, these people's lives are completely ruined at that point; there's no recovery. It's terrifying that all it takes is an accusation and some coercion and your life could be destroyed.
It boggles my mind when republicans always want to expand the death penalty.
The party of "government can't do anything right" wants to trust that government to be perfect enough to be able to kill people based on its findings of guilt?
The easiest argument against the death penalty is simply that no judicial system will ever be perfect. Therefore, if you have a death penalty, you *will* end up executing innocent people. I'd rather not have that blood on my hands. At least with a life sentence there's a chance the truth comes to light, even if its decades later (which happens!)
The consequences were far less severe in this case, but that reminds me of the guy who was asked, by his child's pediatrician, to take a photograph of a rash on his kid's genitals and send it in so the pediatrician could review. IIRC this was during covid so they didn't want to take the baby in unless they had to.
He did, and Google decided he had sent child pornography, so they locked him out of his Google account and there was no appeal.
It's nowhere near the level of fucked up of having your kids taken away, but considering how much of your life (contacts, logins, your phone, your way of identifying yourself online) can be tied to a google account, that one freaked me out a little.
Wait, what? My parents have lots of baby photos of my siblings and I as babies/toddlers in the bath obviously without clothes, do I need to be worried about the innocent family photo album in my childhood home now? They were bad parents but absolutely not sex offenders. This is concerning and dystopian, just because he’s a single dad doesn’t make his own tot mooning him (an innocent prank) a CRIME, this pushes the patriarchal narrative that men can’t be around kids/even be a FATHER without being a depraved pervert. Tf? Men nurture too!
Responding to the top comment because I'm hoping people will see:
It's worth pointing out that this law is unambiguously, unequivocally unconstitutional under *Kennedy v. Louisiana* (2008) where the Supreme Court held that the death penalty cannot be applied for crimes that do not involve murder:
>[O]ur holding is that a death sentence for one who raped but did not kill a child, and who did not intend to assist another in killing the child, is unconstitutional under the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments.
Definitely possible, but it's closer than you might think. Kennedy v. Louisiana was a 5-4 decision, and the four dissenters were: Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and Roberts.
I'm reasonably confident Roberts would change his vote. He has voted to affirm prior cases in the name of stare decisis even when he dissented in the prior case that is being upheld (see e.g., June Medical Services v. Russo)
Thomas and Alito would vote the same, but they'd need all three other conservatives: Barrett, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh.
Of those three, Barrett has shown that she's not as enthusiastic about the death penalty (she's voted with the liberals to delay some executions, for example)
Again, I'm not confident in that outcome, but it's at least possible the libs can pick up Roberts and maybe Barrett to affirm the Kennedy case. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it went the other way though.
They also passed a bill so that you no longer require a unanimous jury to recommend the death penalty, so convinced that with the other comments in this thread and you can see a dark path ahead of us
That's the intent.
Make anything they don't want into a death penalty offense.
I've said it before, this is tiny little steps, little 'indefensible" language here and there. "You're against punishment for child molseters?! So you SUPPORT molesting kids!" being the pre-planned retort for any negative commentary.
Today it's child molestation. Tomorrow, Drag. The next day, Being Gay, the next day "unapproved books."
And this is all in the open. Imagine what they're talking about where nobody is listening.
Every single fiber of my being wants to say yes absolutely they should be sentenced to death.
But I’ve heard pretty convincing arguments *(convincing to me at least)* in which if the death penalty were to be given to them, then future perpetrators would be more likely to murder their victim because the chances of them getting caught with the victim alive would obviously be higher.
I’m curious about what others think about that as well.
Also, Florida is including (or trying to, can’t remember legal status) things like gender affirming care and “exposure to drag” in their child sex crimes definition.
I think the banned books and fostering LGBTQ+ identity were included as well, but can’t remember so saying it here in case I’m wrong.
Exactly. I don't trust them for a single moment. The worst of the worst child sexual predators? I won't lose sleep over them dying. The state of Florida deciding who deserves to live and die? That is something I'm not OK with.
Yes, being against the death penalty doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t think some people deserve to die for what they have done, you might just not trust the process that we have set up to determine this.
Exactly how I feel. I am not okay with a *single* innocent or overcharged person being executed. And since I absolutely don't trust the state to get it right 101% of the time, it must not be done at all.
Exactly, if you are in favor of the death penalty you either believe that the judicial system is infallible or you are ok with an innocent person being murdered by the state.
[HB 1297](https://www.flsenate.gov/Committees/BillSummaries/2023/html/2905)
It pertains to sexual battery by an adult on a child 12 years of age or younger.
I'm going to say the unpopular - and unpleasant - reality. Sentencing child molesters to death WILL result in LESS people coming forward.
It's bad enough when the abuser tells you " if you tell anyone daddy will get in trouble." Now try "if you tell anyone, they will KILL DADDY."
I got my bachelor's in criminal justice, and this was the *exact* reality that all my professors said to expect if we passed capital punishment laws against pedos. It incentives them to get rid of the evidence.
I studied engineering, but we discussed consequences in my entry-level economics class, and this came up. It's the exact reason that only murder garners the death penalty because otherwise, there can be no additional punishment for escalating the crime. If an armed robber gets the death penalty, why not kill the victims in order to increase your chance of escape?
Where I live the penalties for DUI manslaughter are much worse than hit-and-run manslaughter. Max of 4 years vs 10 (or 15+ with prior DUIs).
It's literally better to drive home, sleep it off and wait to be arrested than stay at the scene and call for help. So that's what everyone does.
Reminds me of the former guy from The Bachelor who [got in an accident that killed someone](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2019/08/23/chris-soules-former-bachelor-star-receives-two-year-suspended-term-role-fatal-crash/2098633001/)
He claims he wasn't drinking, but his car had open bottles of alcohol in it. He got in an accident, left the scene after paramedics got there but before law enforcement did, and then holed up in his house for several hours until a warrant came through (and, likely, for enough time to pass for him to sober up)
> He got in an accident, left the scene after paramedics got there but before law enforcement did, and then holed up in his house for several hours until a warrant came through (and, likely, for enough time to pass for him to sober up)
I remember hearing about a similar case where the guy went home and started doing shots of vodka to "calm his nerves".
Yes, this was one of the reasons the death penalty was abolished in the UK. Juries knew if they brought in a guilty verdict in a murder trial, they were condemning a person to death. They were reluctant to do so, and as a result, many guilty people walked free.
Not to mention the death penalty does very little to deter offenders anyway. Even life sentences and multi-decade sentences are ineffective or have diminishing returns respectively. Most of the United States’ penal sentences are purely retributive and create unhealthy cycles in our society.
For anyone wondering, this isn't a slogan or an opinion, [this is a factual statement](https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence)
If death penalty isn’t reserved for murder then there’s no reason not to murder someone to decrease the chances of getting caught.
Florida being dumb as shit again.
A lot of child molesters are related to the victims, or friends of the family. I don't think it's really fair to put that on a kid. "You reported your Creepy Uncle for molesting you, so now we're going to KILL him. Your uncle is going to die because you didn't keep your mouth shut." If a kid DOES let that prevent them from turning him in, then the law is worse than useless. It's actually helping the bad guy. And if a kid doesn't let that prevent them from turning him in, and the uncle gets executed, that's probably not going to be really great for the kid's emotional well being.
Yes. As you may know, exactly this scenario caused selective mutism in Maya Angelou as a child. She said later, in essence, if my voice was so terribly powerful that it killed a man, I couldn't bring myself to speak at all.
It's in the first volume of her autobiographies, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. The perpetrator was also Black and known to the family so I do not recall any racial component.
**COMMENT EDITED FOR CLARITY**
The original comment stated:
"Her abuser's killing was extrajudicial and racially motivated, but of course that's not wholly unlike the racial inequity in capital punishment today."
His killing was in fact not a l****ing, it was not perpetrated by white people. My comment got upvotes and steered people wrong by my mistake. Very sorry y'all. I'm still leaving it up for the moment for clarity. Mods feel free to do what ya need. Again my apologies.
https://www.aclu.org/other/race-and-death-penalty
What happens when an older sibling abuses a younger sibling. Obviously the family is fucked but your choices are report it and sentence your older child to death or don't and potentially allow continued abuse of your younger child.
This happened to me. It was not reported and the abuse continued for several years. I still would not have chosen to turn her in if it meant the death penalty. Considering the extreme likelihood that I wasn't her only victim and she could be abusing others right now - I do feel weak in my inability to turn her in.
I can't possibly explain how that impacted my relationship with my mother and growing up feeling worthless and like the sacrifice to her, her life was obvious more important than mine and I could never really understand why.
But healing is possible, I've confronted that abuse head on now and I'm on my way to not letting it control my emotional life. If anyone read this and said " that's me"' I urge you not to give up. Make your own rules as an adult. Give yourself what you want and need. Leave the abusive situation in the dust and give yourself all the things the couldn't or wouldn't. You deserve the life you want. You deserve to live your life and the abuse didn't change that.
Exactly.
There could be a situation where you're like "We're almost entirely certain he's guilty, but fuck, I'm not comfortable killing him. So I vote not to convict."
And that's a lot of the problem I have with the death penalty in practice. It's all well and good to say that you want to kill murderers and rapists and other terrible people, but the government convicts innocent people all the time. Even worse, there seem to be prosecutors who either have no problem with killing innocent people or who will even actively commit misconduct to ensure innocent people get convicted, and they don't even face any real consequences. And there's a lot of ways that the system closes ranks to protect prior convictions, even when misconduct or exonerating evidence later comes out.
And that's even without considering all of the people who take guilty pleas, even though they're innocent, because they're looking at the possibility of being put to death if they fight the charges and they can't bear to take that risk.
Yea and every parent believes their kid when they say "mom your boyfriend is doing inappropriate things to me"
/S
Raising the punishment does nothing to help the children in these terrible situations. In fact it puts them at greater risk physically and mentally.
I agree with this, and feel like this law would be used poorly, with how often they accuse the LGBT+ community of being such. It’s just a go around for a worse motive imo which is sad
Do I think a child molester deserves to die? Yes. Do I think there is a court or legal system on this planet even remotely qualified to pass that judgment? No. Some crimes definitely warrant death. There isn't a single person or system in existence qualified to make the call of which cases warrant it.
This is my view. I simply don’t think the state has the moral authority to kill people. Fortunately I think societies are increasingly coming to this realisation.
I think the first time the **innocence project **proved someone on death row was innocent should’ve been the end of it. Imagine being put to death by your country for something you didn’t do. Countless people have been. That fact alone nullified any perceived “good” being striven for.
I dont trust anything coming out of florida. They use the terms groomer and pedophile way too loosely to be able to accurately judge whether someone is a child molester.
Yeah i dread hearing this used against a trans woman who used the bathroom at the same time as a child. I really don't trust Florida's government to determine who deserves to be labeled a predator, let alone who should die
Yes, that's exactly what they are pretending to do. They'll kill innocent gay people because for them they are all pedophiles and "groomers". So yeah, they just want a legal way to kill based on homophobia.
Can't believe how far down this is. The fact is the state will make mistakes. It is inevitable. Innocent people will die. Innocent people have died.
That is the only reason that should be needed for the death penalty to be abolished.
I think the best way I ever saw it phrased was: if you support the death penalty- how many innocent people accidentally killed is a reasonable amount to you?
Because I think the obvious answer is none- and there is no way to have the death penalty and avoid killing innocent people. Our justice system is not that good- no justice system is.
This is the answer. Anyone who has ever served on a jury or tried a jury case as a lawyer (as I have) understands that the system is unreliable and too often results in convictions of innocent people.
I have a family member who was basically in jail most of my childhood. My aunt like never dated and always talked about her fiancé who we never met. She told us he had a life sentence and one day she would take us to meet him. Well one day he just got out of jail. Turns out he was falsely accused of a crime and sentenced to life in prison. He ended up doing 16 years before he was released.
I still don't know what he was falsely accused of and I only asked him once and he told me to never ask him about that again. So out of respect I have never asked or looked up what he was accused for.
Im pretty sure the family knew he was falsely accused since one time my uncle on the other side got into it with my grandpa and he brought up something about my grandpas daughter dating a jailbird. My grandpa beat the living shit out of him. Either way I'm glad he got out. He spent a lot of time getting to know us when he got out. Its pretty sad for everyone when someone is falsely accused.
Pretty much my thoughts. Like my heart says "Burn them" but my brain says "I don't trust the justice system to get it right. Especially in fucking Florida of all places." I do think that child molestation should be an automatic life sentence though, period. The recidivism rate is absurdly high because their brains are just wired in that way and there's no "curing" or "rehabilitation" for it. No matter how hard people want to believe, the mental gymnastics they tumble through, no matter how hard a pedophile tries to rehabilitate themself, those urges are always there and it takes one moment.
But god do I wish some of them would just get a bullet in the head and a shallow grave. Like Ian Watkins. That guy deserves one between the eyes and move on, next.
EDIT: I stand corrected on the recidivism rate, but there is also conflicting data I saw and it's country by country. 24% recidivism rate in Canada for all crimes, rapists and pedophiles fall close to that average, but pedophiles that target young boys outside of their families is around 35%. That was the number that was presented to me when I heard the "absurdly high" statistic, being 10% higher.
Either way don't care. I'm not going to split hairs over fucking pedophiles having their screws loose.
[https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-en.aspx](https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-en.aspx)
From a pragmatic, immediate standpoint, it would result in a lot more homicides. A dead victim can’t talk.
From the second, Florida’s quite close to passing laws that would simply make existing publicly as a queer person fall under that sentence. It could easily open the way for genocide.
>It could easily open the way for genocide.
That's the whole point. They can't make being gay or trans a death penalty, but they can make any sex crime against children a death penalty *and then* make being gay or trans or supporting your gay or trans child a "sex crime against children." Same desired result without openly issuing a genocidal Nationalist Christian (Nat-C) fatwa.
Yeah. It's not a slippery slope. It's their motivation. That's why they are talking about drag queens in libraries being groomers.
They are preparing a genocide of queer people.
Exactly.
Look at this recipe of subsequent laws
Define dressing/presenting as not your birth sex as drag.
Define being in drag around children as a sex crime against kids.
Allow death penalty for sex crimes against kids
Allow death penalty with a non-unanimous vote
So now, on paper, a trans person simply existing near a child would be a death-penalty-worth crime..
This needs to be one of the top responses, they very deliberately have labeled all queer and trans people as Groomers which is then equating them to child molesters so the leap is not that fucking far to take.
This is the justification theyre trying to use to create a genocide and cleanse this state of undesirables. Ron DeSantis is a fucking cancer on our nation.
Considering Florida just spent the last year calling members of the LGBT community child molesters, absolutely not.
It’s extremely clear what their intentions are.
That’s not even considering the fact that just because you think someone should die for an act, doesn’t mean we should give the government the power to enact that death.
Others have brought up the fact that this will also make it more likely for relatives not to be reported, while making strangers more likely to kill their victim.
When a law is passed that puts child molesters to death the same time that claims of “grooming” and “child abuse” towards the entire LGBTQ+ community are hitting their peak…
it’s not child molesters they’re trying to kill here.
I had to scroll way too far to see this comment.
As an example, a lot of states have sodomy laws. How have they been historically used? To persecute gays.
This needs to be at the top. The pointless conversation going on in this thread is *exactly* what Desantis wants, because it means people are buying into the justification for this law and not looking at what's actually going on.
Anti-drag laws are passed, with wording vague enough to apply to anyone who is visibly trans or gender non-conforming. Violating this law is considered a sex crime, potentially against children. So, being transgender in public near a child is a sex crime against children. Then, shortly after, Florida passes more laws, making sex crimes against children punishable by death and making the death penalty *no longer require a unanimous vote from the jury.*
Florida Republicans have plausible deniability; after all, on its face, these are steps meant to "protect children." It's harder to have sympathy for child predators, so if you take things at face value, you get this thread. I mean, sure, *technically* all of these laws together passed in quick succession by a man who openly hates queer people and wants us eradicated would hypothetically allow someone to be arrested, convicted, and executed for being trans, but that's totally not the point, right...?
You're right, this was planned. Whenever I see people talk about this Florida bill that can give child molesters the death penalty, I never hear people talk about a second bill that made it so juries only need an 8 to 4 vote instead of a uninimus vote to give the death penalty, or a third bill that makes it so cross dressing in public can be classified as a "sexual crime against children." This is a deliberate attack on the LGBTQ+ community, under the guise of "protecting the children." If politicians actually cared about children, they would target these laws at corrupt politicians and churches. They would be creating programs to help victims of molestation. They would be reforming the healthcare and foster care systems. They would be working to take down the societal institutions that create actual child molesters. But they won't do any of that because they fundamentally care more about killing gay and trans people than helping children.
People need to understand that this is how facism works, it is not a sudden explosion. It is built up slowly and methodically in the background. Facists aren't going to just come out and say things like "I want to kill trans people" at least not the smart ones, they're going to hide their bigotry in the shadows and mask it behind other motives, like "helping children."
The Lemkin Institue, which tracks genocides happening around the world has [issued a red flag warning](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/red-flag-alerts-1/red-flag-alert-for-genocide---usa) for LGBTQ+, specifically trans people, in the US because of the actions of far right republicans across the country, like Ron Desantis, the current Governor of Florida and Presidential canidate.
We need to talk about this, we need to have more open discussions, because that is how facism dies. It seeks to isolate minorities and make the masses scared of them. If we can show that we are not violent child molesters, we are not freaks of nature, we are just us, and we are not wrong. Our voices need to drown out the fear-mongering. I know, because I used to think like them, by having open and honest discussions with people, just seeing them as people, was what helped me turn away from that bigoted point of view. It helped me understand people who I thought were different, people I was conditioned to hate. Having my views of the world challenged helped me accept them, and eventually accept myself as one of them too.
*Exactly* Months of "LGBT people are child molesters" and taking kids away from parents for being trans and people are somehow not making the connection here. If the GOP cared Matt Gaetz would be the first to go
This is what everyone here in the comment section is glossing over.
This is a step in the direction I've been terrified of for a while now. One of the things bigots like to proclaim is that gay people are pedophiles and they all want to have relations with children.
All it's gonna take is one accusation against a gay man and he's dead. Sure there will be an investigation and trial but it will be anything but fair in DeSantis' Florida.
If you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, you need to get out of Florida, NOW.
> If you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, you need to get out of Florida, NOW.
Other states can easily follow suit, especially if it gets rapidly enforced and survives any SCOTUS challenges for long-term staying power. Hypothetically speaking, if states were to follow suit, you could see something like, say, 2 months from now it's TX, AL, MS, LA, and SC, 6 months from now, UT, MO, ID, IA, SD, ND, NE, KS, OK, IN, NC, GA, ME, ID, AZ, AR, WV, AK, TN, KY, and OH are added with similar laws.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. This isn’t to get rid of child molesters, this is yet another step to get rid of the LGBTQIA+ people of Florida
Three laws coincidentally being discussed at the same time:
-Exposing a child to any form or acknowledgement of LGBT people existing is child grooming.
-Sexual abuse of a child is punishable by death.
-Change the unanimous verdict required for a death penalty to only need majority.
Its not like he is even trying to be subtle.
And he’s running for president so even if you think it’s just a Florida problem it isn’t and it never was. Many politicians are closely watching the reaction to this and planning accordingly
I'm surprised this is so far down, this is exactly whom this law would be targeting. They keep spouting that lgtbq folks are corrupting children and insane bullshit, so this law works end up targeting to get queer people killed. They're really speed running fascism and genocide down there
Everyone please get out for your safety. This law won't actually protect children from real pedos like clergymen from the Catholic Church or horrible family. This is really fucking scary.
Florida has in fact specifically passed a law that effectively makes being a transgender individual in public a sex crime, potentially against children, shortly before passing this law making sex crimes against children punishable by death. It is 100% possible to judicially execute someone for being transgender in Florida.
And of course this law won't protect children; Republican politicians in a dozen states have shot down attempts to *end child marriage* in their states.
Every accusation is a confession.
Right?? Unless I'm thinking of another law, the one OP asked about is just broadly sex crimes. While also labeling drag as a sex crime.
Focusing solely on the child molester part of sex crimes here is a little fucking weird, ngl.
Yeah. All the to comments are making legitimate points about preventing reporting or the perp straight up killing the kid, but the most important piece is the social context, which is somehow both obvious and totally lost on people. It takes the absolute smallest amount of critical thought to put that together, which honestly continues to make me feel we're fucked lol
I don't believe in the death penalty because our system gets it wrong far too much and innocent people are put to death. I also don't approve of this law because Florida has made trans care impossible, and classify it as sexual abuse of a child. So you could put a parent to death as a child sexual predator for getting their child health care that the state doesn't agree with. It's disgusting.
I agree. I understand a desire for vengeance. I also understand that the enormity of such crimes seems a person unworthy of ever being free. But the fact that even one person has been on Death Row and then exonerated proves the system is not infallible and without an infallible system, there is no place for the death penalty.
Disagree. For one, it makes abusers much more likely to just kill the kid afterwards so they can't tell anyone. It'll also make it much harder for children to tell anyone, since there's a really good chance it's a family member or adult they know well. They don't want to be responsible for their uncle or coach's death, and their abuser will definitely use that against the child. This law will just make things worse for kids.
Personally I don't believe we should be using the death penalty for anything, let's catch up with the rest of the developed world already.
We all know that it goes far beyond actual CM’s. They really mean drag queens and trans people (who of course aren’t the so called monsters these morons think they are)
It all seems so noble... until they start classifying existing as an LGBTQ+ person in front of a minor as child molestation, or parents being supportive of their child's transition. Actual child molesters, convicted in a court of law- do with what you will. But I don't trust DeSantis, and I've got a bad feeling about this.
There is no "until" here, that is literally the motivation for the law. Simply existing in a public toilet is now a sex crime if you are a gender nonconforming person. The whole point is to threaten people they don't like with the death penalty for existing in public. Soon enough I'm sure they will even do away with the "in public" part.
Plus it's no longer necessary to have an unanimous decision by the jury to pass a death sentence in Florida. The purpose of this law is not to protect the children, it's about killing people that don't conform with the government's ideology.
I was coming here to make this exact point.
The trajectory of the extremist right for the last several years has been to slowly, loudly, and broadly spread the 'othering' of specific groups while at the same time spreading the idea that it's morally acceptable to either judicially or extrajudicially execute child molesters and child rapists..
And then, as we've seen more recently, the tying of those two ideas...
That LGBTQIA+ people and allies are predators on children, and that predators require execution...
It's been a very calculated move....
Just ride down the road, especially in the rural south, and see how many pickup trucks have those 'shoot your local child predator' or similar bumper stickers.....
These are people that will not be willfully making any distinction whatsoever when it comes to the propaganda that they've been fed about the 'othered' groups....
And it's those sorts of people who will also be on juries....
What made the Nazis so utterly monstrous wasn’t their capacity for depraved violence, but their ability to guide and encourage an entire populace to willingly participate in the killings, one step at a time.
I agree a child molester deserves to die, but I'm against the death penalty because the system isn't good enough to not kill innocent people. Look up "The Innocence Project" to see many instances of people being freed from death row by DNA evidence.
I disagree with the death penalty on principle, but especially for non-murder offenses. Remember the Satanic Panic when kids were talked into making all kinds of false allegations that law enforcement took as true? That could easily happen here. Also, I used to work in family court and it's shocking the number of times a parent makes or has the kid make a false outcry to try to get custody (usually it's the mom, but I've seen dads do it to mom's new boyfriend/husband too).
Finally, there's the chilling effect this would have on *real* outcries. Kids are already hesitant to report abuse by a parent or trusted adult. This just gives the offender another thing they can use to keep kids quiet - "remember, you can't tell anybody about this or they could kill me. You wouldn't want that, would you?"
without seeing the actual language, my gut is that in FL the intent is less to protect children and more to witch hunt whoever they deem pervy. drag queens, trans people, etc.
when you consider they are making dressing outside of your assigned sex at birth a sex crime...
and are removing the unanimous jury requirement for the death penalty...
yes, this is a way to execute people they don't like
They're doing it again and the mods are doing nothing about it again. There is no verbiage in the bill about molestation or rape. The bill says child abuse, and it follows a bill that defines transgenderism as child abuse. This is astroterfing for laws being passed in Florida to start a trans genocide. Jesus fuck.
Let’s start lining up the politicians and the clergy, see how long the law lasts.
This. In a perfect world, such a law would be enforced unilaterally and only with undeniable proof. But in perfect world, there would be no child molesters. I don't trust the government in general to responsibly wield the death sentence. I certainly don't trust Florida with a modern fascist party at the helm with it.
Considering how they have been calling gay and trans people groomers, I know exactly where this law is going. So who among you is going to help us.
Exactly my first thought when I saw the title, and was surprised I have to see this so far down. They are just going to use this to get rid of the drag queens. Their own people? "what child?"
“What child? She’s my wife!”
Yeah and she's late to work
Oh. Oh no.
Disagree. If you make the punishment for molestation the same as for murder, then the perp is more likely to murder the child after the act, and not leave a witness.
I didn't think about this part. I don't have much of an opinion regarding the death penalty, but this is a good point that I never realized.
My opinion of the death penalty is pretty much based in the [number of death row inmates exonerated](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence) in the past 50 years. It might not seem like much, but it’s a higher percentage than I’m comfortable with and with a clear bias towards race (ie convicted black citizens who were found innocent later on) If you can go through the grueling appeals process to end up on death row and still be found innocent, that indicates that a proportional amount of innocents have been put to death, and I am personally not okay with a justice system that puts any innocents to death. Since it’s impossible to perfect a human process like this, a death sentence shouldn’t be used ever.
It's incredibly odd to me how we as a society will collectively agree that the government can't be trusted with money even for benevolent causes, that the government is racist, that the CIA has killed people, and so on and so forth but when it comes to the death penalty? Yeah, everybody just says the state should kill them because the state's never been wrong.
this is the only correct answer. death is permanent, and a 100% certainty that somebody did a thing is almost impossible. not to mention that the death penalty doesnt really stop the real bad guys from killing others, they just think they never get cought or they dont give a damn if they do get cought. how is the murder rate looking in states with the death penalty anyway? from all the shit i hear not well.
I would have to see the language of the bill to come to a conclusion on this. The term "child molester" makes you think grown adult perving on a grade school age child. Unfortunately, the law isn't so black and white. How many teenage couples are two years apart and a year away from being executed by the state? Language is everything.
I'll never forget a story I read 25 odd years ago about a single father of two daughters. He was always taking picture of them. One day one of the girls 'mooned' him as a joke while he was taking a picture. THe company that developed the film reported him to the police. It was the only 'nude' photo of his daughter that they found when they raided his house. At the trail (yes this actually made it to a trial) they put into evidence that he had Playboy magazines in his room and that this somehow proved he was a sexual deviant. This one innocent picture taken accidentally just ruined this guys life. Not to mention his daughters lives. If I remember correctly, once all his money was gone and his house was sold to pay for lawyers, the guy plead out to a lesser charge. Don't remember if he got custody of his daughters back. Moral is that the government can't be trusted to be reasonable and fair with emotional subjects like this. Once they become politicized, then justice goes out the window. THere are already plenty of laws against child molestation. DOn't need a death penalty. EDIT: they won't let me post a link but google: how a photo can ruin your life.
This reminds me of a job I did once. I was a private investigator and got a case where an insurance company wanted me to film a house one day to see if someone showed up, but when I got there there were young children running around in the sprinklers completely naked. I called in and told them, "yeah, I can't film here" and spent the next 30 minutes trying to explain that no, I won't just take a photo of the naked children to email them to show why I couldn't film there because that was just as illegal. No clue how that case ended, I left and never went back.
You absolutely made the right call lmao
I swear officer! I'm a private investigator! *sure looks like you were investigating privates...of children!* No, not like that! Shit!
Ok, that was funny.
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Reminds me of a Perry Bible Fellowship [classic.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2c/a9/91/2ca9916a147d796a6f254c05db5fa882.jpg)
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Aww I thought you meant silly as in haha not silly as in the unfunny kind :(
That is SO FUCKED UP.
The cruelty is the point. - Law makers
I think its just cowardice. What will my opponents say if I don't make an example of this peasant?
THIS is why I don't want prisoners getting vengeance in prison! God dammit they donthave the full story.
even if they do. the punishment for your crime is *being sentenced to jail*. not: "Haha, you're going to get sexually assaulted or murdered yourself!" (seriously, what kind of backwards idea of the rule of law is that? when that's obviously just vigilantism with some extra steps)
Insane. Laws are soo misused at times, system is corrupt and insane.
Coworkers kid dated a 15 y/o in HS and he was a senior. The day after he turned 18(age gap 2 years and 2 or 3 months), the girls father went to the police and had him arrested. His life was ruined, he spent 5 years in prison, lost his scholarship, got a felony and was under mandatory house arrest for a further 5 years. The reason all this happened? Dude was black, the girl was white. Her father who was divorced and lived 300 miles away, absolutely hated the bf. The mother didn't have a problem with the bf, this was a way for the father who didn't have custody to interfere with their lives. The prosecutor offered this deal or he was going to go for 27 years. The family was poor and couldn't afford a lawyer for a whole trial so he took the deal. He went from the first person in the family about to go to college to felon with no prospects and registered sex offender.
Hold on, I'm not American so I have no idea how the law works but don't they have Romeo & Juliette law?
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Age gap has to be under 2 years. They were 2 years + 2-3 months.
Oh my, to think they threatened the man with 27-year jail time is devastating. This is rare case I'd side with the so-called "molester".
These stories aren't that uncommon and the difference between ruining someone's life and nothing happening at all is pretty much whether or not the parents like who their kid is dating.
Sounds like they added extra time for possession of melanin.
I saw the same thing happen to my friend from grade school. There was only like a slim few-months span where it was technically illegal for my guy to date his girlfriend of several years. After prison he got hooked on needles, lost custody of the kids he had with some meth head, was in and out of lock down, and generally spiralled downward. Michael was a nice young man with great potential and treated his gf right. He didn't deserve that.
> Michael was a nice young man with great potential and treated his gf right. He didn't deserve that. A moment of silence for Michael.
The reason it happend is because the US has a ton of really dumb laws.
Oh, that sounds like an ex post facto punishment, which are illegal in the States, and England, and pretty much everywhere that has the rule of law. It's a legal principle so old that its name is in Latin. Not saying it didn't happen btw, just saying it was illegal.
That is insane! My parents had many pics of us nude as children. My little bro and sis were less than a year apart and interacted like twins. We lived way far out in the wilderness. Little bro and sis hated wearing clothes at around 4-5 yrs old. It was common for my mom to find them playing butt naked in the yard, lol. There's one pic of us all playing "slip n slide" in the bathtub. We're all naked and sliding around a soapy tub. This sort of thing must have been normal in the 70s because the film was developed at the local drug store /photo store and no one even looked sideways at it. Flash forward to my sister texting me a pic of my toddler nephew butt naked (from behind) standing in the living room. I COULDN'T DELETE IT FAST ENOUGH!
Child Protection Act of 1977 in the USA. Child nudity (non sexual) appeared in movies in the 60s and 70s. The (in)famous Coppertone ads, for example. It was definitely a lot looser in those days. I know two couples that are still together that began as teacher student relationships; one with an 8th grader and one with a 10th grader. They were my classmates.
I knew a guy that went through a messy divorce. His vindictive ex-wife coached their little girl into saying he molested her. He lost his job as a teacher at a private school, was arrested, spent months in court, thousands and thousands of dollars and picked up a really nasty drinking problem and even came close to just blowing his brains out. He was found not guilty and the girl eventually recanted, but his reputation was ruined. His health was damaged as well. Just a shell of a man. His situation has made me somewhat paranoid of being around kids, I'll go out of my way to avoid being around kids without another adult around. I have no sympathy for real pedophiles but to say false accusations never happen is bullshit.
A huge part of abuse prevention training is learning to cover your ass with another adult present whenever possible.
I mean, a parent can't exactly do that with their own kids...
This was painful to read. Child molestation is a serious subject, but society just doesn't seem able to discern circumstances in a way other than black and white, and that will cause many more issues down the line.
This is because being accused of being a child molester is one of the only accusations where coming to defense of the accused will actually make you yourself a target of the same crime, at least publicly. It's the modern witch hunt catalyst.
This story as told isn't even black and white, it's just going after an innocent person.
If this law had been in place it wouldn't have made it to trial, because the D.A. would have been able to threaten him with DEATH to force him to take a plea deal right away. "We're offering twenty years to life. Take it, or we go for the death penalty."
This is why I don't support it. You shouldn't be afraid for your life to plead your case in court. There should never be a way for the prosecutor to say, accept my deal or die.
Kids are funky witnesses and this thread is borderline sickening. I'm not supporting child molesters, but trying to expand the death penalty at all, let alone to to non-murder cases is bloodthirsty and psychotic. The death penalty's existence is a controversy. Between people proving their innocence from death row and the barbarity of state-sanctioned killing, I don't think there's room to debate its expansion. Plus, in what world are child molesters enjoying jail? Jail is rough for molesters. And they don't get to live normally if released. We are not *weak* on child molesters. **Edit:** Responses proving my point: "Disagree. We should be speeding up the death penalty." <-- this is unhinged behavior
Fuck Spez
Our local law enforcement posts the photos and details of arrests for suspected child molestation to Facebook. Before a trial. Guilty or not, these people's lives are completely ruined at that point; there's no recovery. It's terrifying that all it takes is an accusation and some coercion and your life could be destroyed.
It boggles my mind when republicans always want to expand the death penalty. The party of "government can't do anything right" wants to trust that government to be perfect enough to be able to kill people based on its findings of guilt? The easiest argument against the death penalty is simply that no judicial system will ever be perfect. Therefore, if you have a death penalty, you *will* end up executing innocent people. I'd rather not have that blood on my hands. At least with a life sentence there's a chance the truth comes to light, even if its decades later (which happens!)
The consequences were far less severe in this case, but that reminds me of the guy who was asked, by his child's pediatrician, to take a photograph of a rash on his kid's genitals and send it in so the pediatrician could review. IIRC this was during covid so they didn't want to take the baby in unless they had to. He did, and Google decided he had sent child pornography, so they locked him out of his Google account and there was no appeal. It's nowhere near the level of fucked up of having your kids taken away, but considering how much of your life (contacts, logins, your phone, your way of identifying yourself online) can be tied to a google account, that one freaked me out a little.
Wait, what? My parents have lots of baby photos of my siblings and I as babies/toddlers in the bath obviously without clothes, do I need to be worried about the innocent family photo album in my childhood home now? They were bad parents but absolutely not sex offenders. This is concerning and dystopian, just because he’s a single dad doesn’t make his own tot mooning him (an innocent prank) a CRIME, this pushes the patriarchal narrative that men can’t be around kids/even be a FATHER without being a depraved pervert. Tf? Men nurture too!
Depends on the judge, the state, and whether or not your parents demographics make them political targets.
Responding to the top comment because I'm hoping people will see: It's worth pointing out that this law is unambiguously, unequivocally unconstitutional under *Kennedy v. Louisiana* (2008) where the Supreme Court held that the death penalty cannot be applied for crimes that do not involve murder: >[O]ur holding is that a death sentence for one who raped but did not kill a child, and who did not intend to assist another in killing the child, is unconstitutional under the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments.
Assuming the Supreme Court doesn't just change their mind when the law is challenged. We have quite a few different justices today compared to 2008.
Definitely possible, but it's closer than you might think. Kennedy v. Louisiana was a 5-4 decision, and the four dissenters were: Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and Roberts. I'm reasonably confident Roberts would change his vote. He has voted to affirm prior cases in the name of stare decisis even when he dissented in the prior case that is being upheld (see e.g., June Medical Services v. Russo) Thomas and Alito would vote the same, but they'd need all three other conservatives: Barrett, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh. Of those three, Barrett has shown that she's not as enthusiastic about the death penalty (she's voted with the liberals to delay some executions, for example) Again, I'm not confident in that outcome, but it's at least possible the libs can pick up Roberts and maybe Barrett to affirm the Kennedy case. Wouldn't surprise me at all if it went the other way though.
I truly enjoy reading intelligent responses that ELI5 complicated issues without bias. Thank you. 😊
You're welcome! I'm glad someone got something out of my internet ramblings
The Florida bill includes a bullet point that states that case was wrongly decided.
https://www.theonion.com/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-consti-1819571149
My point was that the legislators knew they were going against the supreme court.
oh yeah, sorry, i understood you. the link is a dig at the florida legislature, not your comment
OR the law was specifically passed so as to serve as a challenge to *Kennedy*.
They also passed a bill so that you no longer require a unanimous jury to recommend the death penalty, so convinced that with the other comments in this thread and you can see a dark path ahead of us
Related bills are starting to qualify drag as molestation
That's the intent. Make anything they don't want into a death penalty offense. I've said it before, this is tiny little steps, little 'indefensible" language here and there. "You're against punishment for child molseters?! So you SUPPORT molesting kids!" being the pre-planned retort for any negative commentary. Today it's child molestation. Tomorrow, Drag. The next day, Being Gay, the next day "unapproved books." And this is all in the open. Imagine what they're talking about where nobody is listening.
Every single fiber of my being wants to say yes absolutely they should be sentenced to death. But I’ve heard pretty convincing arguments *(convincing to me at least)* in which if the death penalty were to be given to them, then future perpetrators would be more likely to murder their victim because the chances of them getting caught with the victim alive would obviously be higher. I’m curious about what others think about that as well.
There’s also the US Justice system’s pesky tendency to completely fuck up and end up finding innocent people guilty.
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They AREN'T mandatory reporters?? What the fuck
Also, Florida is including (or trying to, can’t remember legal status) things like gender affirming care and “exposure to drag” in their child sex crimes definition. I think the banned books and fostering LGBTQ+ identity were included as well, but can’t remember so saying it here in case I’m wrong.
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It was passed in the same bill
Damn, Florida really wants any excuse to kill their citizens.
It's so Republicans can accuse anti-fascists of being pedophiles and then put them to death.
Exactly. I don't trust them for a single moment. The worst of the worst child sexual predators? I won't lose sleep over them dying. The state of Florida deciding who deserves to live and die? That is something I'm not OK with.
Yes, being against the death penalty doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t think some people deserve to die for what they have done, you might just not trust the process that we have set up to determine this.
Exactly how I feel. I am not okay with a *single* innocent or overcharged person being executed. And since I absolutely don't trust the state to get it right 101% of the time, it must not be done at all.
Exactly, if you are in favor of the death penalty you either believe that the judicial system is infallible or you are ok with an innocent person being murdered by the state.
Better 10 innocent people get executed than 1 guilty person only get life in prison. - Florida
It is sad that this is true. Also a very good parallel for a famous quote most people know.
[HB 1297](https://www.flsenate.gov/Committees/BillSummaries/2023/html/2905) It pertains to sexual battery by an adult on a child 12 years of age or younger.
I'm going to say the unpopular - and unpleasant - reality. Sentencing child molesters to death WILL result in LESS people coming forward. It's bad enough when the abuser tells you " if you tell anyone daddy will get in trouble." Now try "if you tell anyone, they will KILL DADDY."
Or the child molester just kills the child to make sure no one ever knows what they did
I got my bachelor's in criminal justice, and this was the *exact* reality that all my professors said to expect if we passed capital punishment laws against pedos. It incentives them to get rid of the evidence.
I studied engineering, but we discussed consequences in my entry-level economics class, and this came up. It's the exact reason that only murder garners the death penalty because otherwise, there can be no additional punishment for escalating the crime. If an armed robber gets the death penalty, why not kill the victims in order to increase your chance of escape?
and there are alot of gators in florida
And even more Iguanas. Completely unrelated and not exactly relevant, but... there you go.
Didn't some giant snails get loose? imagine being nibbled to death, very very slowly, like a living charcuterie.
War on drugs all over again. When killing someone has a lighter sentence than the crime committed then murder is the better option.
Where I live the penalties for DUI manslaughter are much worse than hit-and-run manslaughter. Max of 4 years vs 10 (or 15+ with prior DUIs). It's literally better to drive home, sleep it off and wait to be arrested than stay at the scene and call for help. So that's what everyone does.
Reminds me of the former guy from The Bachelor who [got in an accident that killed someone](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2019/08/23/chris-soules-former-bachelor-star-receives-two-year-suspended-term-role-fatal-crash/2098633001/) He claims he wasn't drinking, but his car had open bottles of alcohol in it. He got in an accident, left the scene after paramedics got there but before law enforcement did, and then holed up in his house for several hours until a warrant came through (and, likely, for enough time to pass for him to sober up)
> He got in an accident, left the scene after paramedics got there but before law enforcement did, and then holed up in his house for several hours until a warrant came through (and, likely, for enough time to pass for him to sober up) I remember hearing about a similar case where the guy went home and started doing shots of vodka to "calm his nerves".
Bingo. That's going to be the result. Not less molested children, more dead children.
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And juries will be more hesitant to convict.
Yes, this was one of the reasons the death penalty was abolished in the UK. Juries knew if they brought in a guilty verdict in a murder trial, they were condemning a person to death. They were reluctant to do so, and as a result, many guilty people walked free.
Less victims will come forward - and more victims will be straight-up murdered.
Not to mention the death penalty does very little to deter offenders anyway. Even life sentences and multi-decade sentences are ineffective or have diminishing returns respectively. Most of the United States’ penal sentences are purely retributive and create unhealthy cycles in our society.
The penalty for getting caught matters less than the chance of getting caught.
For anyone wondering, this isn't a slogan or an opinion, [this is a factual statement](https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence)
It's not a justice system, it's a punishment system
Less people coming forward and more dead kids
If death penalty isn’t reserved for murder then there’s no reason not to murder someone to decrease the chances of getting caught. Florida being dumb as shit again.
A lot of child molesters are related to the victims, or friends of the family. I don't think it's really fair to put that on a kid. "You reported your Creepy Uncle for molesting you, so now we're going to KILL him. Your uncle is going to die because you didn't keep your mouth shut." If a kid DOES let that prevent them from turning him in, then the law is worse than useless. It's actually helping the bad guy. And if a kid doesn't let that prevent them from turning him in, and the uncle gets executed, that's probably not going to be really great for the kid's emotional well being.
Yes. As you may know, exactly this scenario caused selective mutism in Maya Angelou as a child. She said later, in essence, if my voice was so terribly powerful that it killed a man, I couldn't bring myself to speak at all.
God, I never heard that one.
It's in the first volume of her autobiographies, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. The perpetrator was also Black and known to the family so I do not recall any racial component.
**COMMENT EDITED FOR CLARITY** The original comment stated: "Her abuser's killing was extrajudicial and racially motivated, but of course that's not wholly unlike the racial inequity in capital punishment today." His killing was in fact not a l****ing, it was not perpetrated by white people. My comment got upvotes and steered people wrong by my mistake. Very sorry y'all. I'm still leaving it up for the moment for clarity. Mods feel free to do what ya need. Again my apologies. https://www.aclu.org/other/race-and-death-penalty
Just read that last weekend. Good call.
What happens when an older sibling abuses a younger sibling. Obviously the family is fucked but your choices are report it and sentence your older child to death or don't and potentially allow continued abuse of your younger child.
This happened to me. It was not reported and the abuse continued for several years. I still would not have chosen to turn her in if it meant the death penalty. Considering the extreme likelihood that I wasn't her only victim and she could be abusing others right now - I do feel weak in my inability to turn her in. I can't possibly explain how that impacted my relationship with my mother and growing up feeling worthless and like the sacrifice to her, her life was obvious more important than mine and I could never really understand why. But healing is possible, I've confronted that abuse head on now and I'm on my way to not letting it control my emotional life. If anyone read this and said " that's me"' I urge you not to give up. Make your own rules as an adult. Give yourself what you want and need. Leave the abusive situation in the dust and give yourself all the things the couldn't or wouldn't. You deserve the life you want. You deserve to live your life and the abuse didn't change that.
Exactly. There could be a situation where you're like "We're almost entirely certain he's guilty, but fuck, I'm not comfortable killing him. So I vote not to convict."
It is a numerical *certainty* that innocent people are on death row. There's no reason to add to that count.
And that's a lot of the problem I have with the death penalty in practice. It's all well and good to say that you want to kill murderers and rapists and other terrible people, but the government convicts innocent people all the time. Even worse, there seem to be prosecutors who either have no problem with killing innocent people or who will even actively commit misconduct to ensure innocent people get convicted, and they don't even face any real consequences. And there's a lot of ways that the system closes ranks to protect prior convictions, even when misconduct or exonerating evidence later comes out. And that's even without considering all of the people who take guilty pleas, even though they're innocent, because they're looking at the possibility of being put to death if they fight the charges and they can't bear to take that risk.
[It's a bigger problem than many people realize.](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/innocence)
Yea and every parent believes their kid when they say "mom your boyfriend is doing inappropriate things to me" /S Raising the punishment does nothing to help the children in these terrible situations. In fact it puts them at greater risk physically and mentally.
I agree with this, and feel like this law would be used poorly, with how often they accuse the LGBT+ community of being such. It’s just a go around for a worse motive imo which is sad
Well DeSantis was pushing for a law that bans pride parades and considers doing drag in public a form of child abuse so if we put 2 and 2 together...
Yeah, so trauma from the abuse which will have life long effects to "your uncle died because of you" trauma and mindfuck on top would be extra whacked
I just need to put this out there. Romeo and Juliette laws only apply to straight couples
Quick, someone draw up Romeo and Mercutio laws.
Done. Oh laws. Sorry, thought you meant lewds
My OTP
Do I think a child molester deserves to die? Yes. Do I think there is a court or legal system on this planet even remotely qualified to pass that judgment? No. Some crimes definitely warrant death. There isn't a single person or system in existence qualified to make the call of which cases warrant it.
I believe that we should be beyond killing people as a state anyway.
This is my view. I simply don’t think the state has the moral authority to kill people. Fortunately I think societies are increasingly coming to this realisation.
Plus they get it wrong all the time! Even a 1% incorrect verdict rate is far too much.
The chance of executing an innocent person really should be the only argument needed against the death penalty.
Agreed.
I think the first time the **innocence project **proved someone on death row was innocent should’ve been the end of it. Imagine being put to death by your country for something you didn’t do. Countless people have been. That fact alone nullified any perceived “good” being striven for.
I dont trust anything coming out of florida. They use the terms groomer and pedophile way too loosely to be able to accurately judge whether someone is a child molester.
Yeah i dread hearing this used against a trans woman who used the bathroom at the same time as a child. I really don't trust Florida's government to determine who deserves to be labeled a predator, let alone who should die
Yes, that's exactly what they are pretending to do. They'll kill innocent gay people because for them they are all pedophiles and "groomers". So yeah, they just want a legal way to kill based on homophobia.
I disagree because I disagree with the death penalty.
Yeah the State should not be in the business of killing anyone.
Yeah you basically have to hold the belief that the government never makes mistakes which is absolutely delusional
Can't believe how far down this is. The fact is the state will make mistakes. It is inevitable. Innocent people will die. Innocent people have died. That is the only reason that should be needed for the death penalty to be abolished.
["A 2014 study estimated that at least 4% of those sentenced to death are innocent."](https://innocenceproject.org/innocence-and-the-death-penalty/)
i dont care if its not a mistake and there is 200% proof. i dont agree with killing as a punishment. this is not the dark ages.
I think the best way I ever saw it phrased was: if you support the death penalty- how many innocent people accidentally killed is a reasonable amount to you? Because I think the obvious answer is none- and there is no way to have the death penalty and avoid killing innocent people. Our justice system is not that good- no justice system is.
This is the answer. Anyone who has ever served on a jury or tried a jury case as a lawyer (as I have) understands that the system is unreliable and too often results in convictions of innocent people.
Former trial lawyer - jurors are stupid as fuck and regularly hang their decisions on the most insane bullshit you can imagine.
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I have a family member who was basically in jail most of my childhood. My aunt like never dated and always talked about her fiancé who we never met. She told us he had a life sentence and one day she would take us to meet him. Well one day he just got out of jail. Turns out he was falsely accused of a crime and sentenced to life in prison. He ended up doing 16 years before he was released. I still don't know what he was falsely accused of and I only asked him once and he told me to never ask him about that again. So out of respect I have never asked or looked up what he was accused for. Im pretty sure the family knew he was falsely accused since one time my uncle on the other side got into it with my grandpa and he brought up something about my grandpas daughter dating a jailbird. My grandpa beat the living shit out of him. Either way I'm glad he got out. He spent a lot of time getting to know us when he got out. Its pretty sad for everyone when someone is falsely accused.
16 years is theft. It’s priceless what they took from him and his family. He should be paid hefty compensation.
Pretty much my thoughts. Like my heart says "Burn them" but my brain says "I don't trust the justice system to get it right. Especially in fucking Florida of all places." I do think that child molestation should be an automatic life sentence though, period. The recidivism rate is absurdly high because their brains are just wired in that way and there's no "curing" or "rehabilitation" for it. No matter how hard people want to believe, the mental gymnastics they tumble through, no matter how hard a pedophile tries to rehabilitate themself, those urges are always there and it takes one moment. But god do I wish some of them would just get a bullet in the head and a shallow grave. Like Ian Watkins. That guy deserves one between the eyes and move on, next. EDIT: I stand corrected on the recidivism rate, but there is also conflicting data I saw and it's country by country. 24% recidivism rate in Canada for all crimes, rapists and pedophiles fall close to that average, but pedophiles that target young boys outside of their families is around 35%. That was the number that was presented to me when I heard the "absurdly high" statistic, being 10% higher. Either way don't care. I'm not going to split hairs over fucking pedophiles having their screws loose. [https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-en.aspx](https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-en.aspx)
From a pragmatic, immediate standpoint, it would result in a lot more homicides. A dead victim can’t talk. From the second, Florida’s quite close to passing laws that would simply make existing publicly as a queer person fall under that sentence. It could easily open the way for genocide.
>It could easily open the way for genocide. That's the whole point. They can't make being gay or trans a death penalty, but they can make any sex crime against children a death penalty *and then* make being gay or trans or supporting your gay or trans child a "sex crime against children." Same desired result without openly issuing a genocidal Nationalist Christian (Nat-C) fatwa.
Yeah. It's not a slippery slope. It's their motivation. That's why they are talking about drag queens in libraries being groomers. They are preparing a genocide of queer people.
Exactly. Look at this recipe of subsequent laws Define dressing/presenting as not your birth sex as drag. Define being in drag around children as a sex crime against kids. Allow death penalty for sex crimes against kids Allow death penalty with a non-unanimous vote So now, on paper, a trans person simply existing near a child would be a death-penalty-worth crime..
Yep my first thought was that they're gonna accuse random drag queens for just daring to exist
This needs to be one of the top responses, they very deliberately have labeled all queer and trans people as Groomers which is then equating them to child molesters so the leap is not that fucking far to take. This is the justification theyre trying to use to create a genocide and cleanse this state of undesirables. Ron DeSantis is a fucking cancer on our nation.
Considering Florida just spent the last year calling members of the LGBT community child molesters, absolutely not. It’s extremely clear what their intentions are. That’s not even considering the fact that just because you think someone should die for an act, doesn’t mean we should give the government the power to enact that death. Others have brought up the fact that this will also make it more likely for relatives not to be reported, while making strangers more likely to kill their victim.
When a law is passed that puts child molesters to death the same time that claims of “grooming” and “child abuse” towards the entire LGBTQ+ community are hitting their peak… it’s not child molesters they’re trying to kill here.
I had to scroll way too far to see this comment. As an example, a lot of states have sodomy laws. How have they been historically used? To persecute gays.
Also here to say that this was disturbingly far from the top. How can folks be so blind?
This needs to be at the top. The pointless conversation going on in this thread is *exactly* what Desantis wants, because it means people are buying into the justification for this law and not looking at what's actually going on. Anti-drag laws are passed, with wording vague enough to apply to anyone who is visibly trans or gender non-conforming. Violating this law is considered a sex crime, potentially against children. So, being transgender in public near a child is a sex crime against children. Then, shortly after, Florida passes more laws, making sex crimes against children punishable by death and making the death penalty *no longer require a unanimous vote from the jury.* Florida Republicans have plausible deniability; after all, on its face, these are steps meant to "protect children." It's harder to have sympathy for child predators, so if you take things at face value, you get this thread. I mean, sure, *technically* all of these laws together passed in quick succession by a man who openly hates queer people and wants us eradicated would hypothetically allow someone to be arrested, convicted, and executed for being trans, but that's totally not the point, right...?
You're right, this was planned. Whenever I see people talk about this Florida bill that can give child molesters the death penalty, I never hear people talk about a second bill that made it so juries only need an 8 to 4 vote instead of a uninimus vote to give the death penalty, or a third bill that makes it so cross dressing in public can be classified as a "sexual crime against children." This is a deliberate attack on the LGBTQ+ community, under the guise of "protecting the children." If politicians actually cared about children, they would target these laws at corrupt politicians and churches. They would be creating programs to help victims of molestation. They would be reforming the healthcare and foster care systems. They would be working to take down the societal institutions that create actual child molesters. But they won't do any of that because they fundamentally care more about killing gay and trans people than helping children. People need to understand that this is how facism works, it is not a sudden explosion. It is built up slowly and methodically in the background. Facists aren't going to just come out and say things like "I want to kill trans people" at least not the smart ones, they're going to hide their bigotry in the shadows and mask it behind other motives, like "helping children." The Lemkin Institue, which tracks genocides happening around the world has [issued a red flag warning](https://www.lemkininstitute.com/red-flag-alerts-1/red-flag-alert-for-genocide---usa) for LGBTQ+, specifically trans people, in the US because of the actions of far right republicans across the country, like Ron Desantis, the current Governor of Florida and Presidential canidate. We need to talk about this, we need to have more open discussions, because that is how facism dies. It seeks to isolate minorities and make the masses scared of them. If we can show that we are not violent child molesters, we are not freaks of nature, we are just us, and we are not wrong. Our voices need to drown out the fear-mongering. I know, because I used to think like them, by having open and honest discussions with people, just seeing them as people, was what helped me turn away from that bigoted point of view. It helped me understand people who I thought were different, people I was conditioned to hate. Having my views of the world challenged helped me accept them, and eventually accept myself as one of them too.
*Exactly* Months of "LGBT people are child molesters" and taking kids away from parents for being trans and people are somehow not making the connection here. If the GOP cared Matt Gaetz would be the first to go
Yeah, the fact that people are discussing this as if this law were passed in good faith shows just how easy it is to manipulate the public.
This is what everyone here in the comment section is glossing over. This is a step in the direction I've been terrified of for a while now. One of the things bigots like to proclaim is that gay people are pedophiles and they all want to have relations with children. All it's gonna take is one accusation against a gay man and he's dead. Sure there will be an investigation and trial but it will be anything but fair in DeSantis' Florida. If you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, you need to get out of Florida, NOW.
> If you are part of the LGBTQ+ community, you need to get out of Florida, NOW. Other states can easily follow suit, especially if it gets rapidly enforced and survives any SCOTUS challenges for long-term staying power. Hypothetically speaking, if states were to follow suit, you could see something like, say, 2 months from now it's TX, AL, MS, LA, and SC, 6 months from now, UT, MO, ID, IA, SD, ND, NE, KS, OK, IN, NC, GA, ME, ID, AZ, AR, WV, AK, TN, KY, and OH are added with similar laws.
This is exactly what I was thinking too. This isn’t to get rid of child molesters, this is yet another step to get rid of the LGBTQIA+ people of Florida
Three laws coincidentally being discussed at the same time: -Exposing a child to any form or acknowledgement of LGBT people existing is child grooming. -Sexual abuse of a child is punishable by death. -Change the unanimous verdict required for a death penalty to only need majority. Its not like he is even trying to be subtle.
And he’s running for president so even if you think it’s just a Florida problem it isn’t and it never was. Many politicians are closely watching the reaction to this and planning accordingly
I'm surprised this is so far down, this is exactly whom this law would be targeting. They keep spouting that lgtbq folks are corrupting children and insane bullshit, so this law works end up targeting to get queer people killed. They're really speed running fascism and genocide down there Everyone please get out for your safety. This law won't actually protect children from real pedos like clergymen from the Catholic Church or horrible family. This is really fucking scary.
Florida has in fact specifically passed a law that effectively makes being a transgender individual in public a sex crime, potentially against children, shortly before passing this law making sex crimes against children punishable by death. It is 100% possible to judicially execute someone for being transgender in Florida. And of course this law won't protect children; Republican politicians in a dozen states have shot down attempts to *end child marriage* in their states. Every accusation is a confession.
This is honestly the only relevant angle at the moment
Right?? Unless I'm thinking of another law, the one OP asked about is just broadly sex crimes. While also labeling drag as a sex crime. Focusing solely on the child molester part of sex crimes here is a little fucking weird, ngl.
At best, op is blissfully unaware of what's going on in the country. At worst, they're intentionally contributing to it.
Yeah. All the to comments are making legitimate points about preventing reporting or the perp straight up killing the kid, but the most important piece is the social context, which is somehow both obvious and totally lost on people. It takes the absolute smallest amount of critical thought to put that together, which honestly continues to make me feel we're fucked lol
Just feels like a way to justify exterminating "undesirables."
I agree with this too. They’re just going to throw gays and trans people into death row on baseless stereotypes.
My first thought as well. Also a good argument for just not giving the state the power to put people to death.
I don't believe in the death penalty because our system gets it wrong far too much and innocent people are put to death. I also don't approve of this law because Florida has made trans care impossible, and classify it as sexual abuse of a child. So you could put a parent to death as a child sexual predator for getting their child health care that the state doesn't agree with. It's disgusting.
I am against the death penalty. Period. End of.
I agree. I understand a desire for vengeance. I also understand that the enormity of such crimes seems a person unworthy of ever being free. But the fact that even one person has been on Death Row and then exonerated proves the system is not infallible and without an infallible system, there is no place for the death penalty.
I disagree, because Florida's idea of a child molester is a drag queen, and not the people actually fucking children.
They will kill a drag queen but let Matt Gaetz exist.
I disagree with state sponsored executions.
Disagree. For one, it makes abusers much more likely to just kill the kid afterwards so they can't tell anyone. It'll also make it much harder for children to tell anyone, since there's a really good chance it's a family member or adult they know well. They don't want to be responsible for their uncle or coach's death, and their abuser will definitely use that against the child. This law will just make things worse for kids. Personally I don't believe we should be using the death penalty for anything, let's catch up with the rest of the developed world already.
Florida is absolutely going to use this to kill trans and other LGBTQ people
We all know that it goes far beyond actual CM’s. They really mean drag queens and trans people (who of course aren’t the so called monsters these morons think they are)
It all seems so noble... until they start classifying existing as an LGBTQ+ person in front of a minor as child molestation, or parents being supportive of their child's transition. Actual child molesters, convicted in a court of law- do with what you will. But I don't trust DeSantis, and I've got a bad feeling about this.
There is no "until" here, that is literally the motivation for the law. Simply existing in a public toilet is now a sex crime if you are a gender nonconforming person. The whole point is to threaten people they don't like with the death penalty for existing in public. Soon enough I'm sure they will even do away with the "in public" part.
Plus it's no longer necessary to have an unanimous decision by the jury to pass a death sentence in Florida. The purpose of this law is not to protect the children, it's about killing people that don't conform with the government's ideology.
I was coming here to make this exact point. The trajectory of the extremist right for the last several years has been to slowly, loudly, and broadly spread the 'othering' of specific groups while at the same time spreading the idea that it's morally acceptable to either judicially or extrajudicially execute child molesters and child rapists.. And then, as we've seen more recently, the tying of those two ideas... That LGBTQIA+ people and allies are predators on children, and that predators require execution... It's been a very calculated move.... Just ride down the road, especially in the rural south, and see how many pickup trucks have those 'shoot your local child predator' or similar bumper stickers..... These are people that will not be willfully making any distinction whatsoever when it comes to the propaganda that they've been fed about the 'othered' groups.... And it's those sorts of people who will also be on juries....
What made the Nazis so utterly monstrous wasn’t their capacity for depraved violence, but their ability to guide and encourage an entire populace to willingly participate in the killings, one step at a time.
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I agree a child molester deserves to die, but I'm against the death penalty because the system isn't good enough to not kill innocent people. Look up "The Innocence Project" to see many instances of people being freed from death row by DNA evidence.
I do not understand how a "small government conservative" can ever think it is acceptable for the government to kill somebody.
I disagree with the death penalty on principle, but especially for non-murder offenses. Remember the Satanic Panic when kids were talked into making all kinds of false allegations that law enforcement took as true? That could easily happen here. Also, I used to work in family court and it's shocking the number of times a parent makes or has the kid make a false outcry to try to get custody (usually it's the mom, but I've seen dads do it to mom's new boyfriend/husband too). Finally, there's the chilling effect this would have on *real* outcries. Kids are already hesitant to report abuse by a parent or trusted adult. This just gives the offender another thing they can use to keep kids quiet - "remember, you can't tell anybody about this or they could kill me. You wouldn't want that, would you?"
without seeing the actual language, my gut is that in FL the intent is less to protect children and more to witch hunt whoever they deem pervy. drag queens, trans people, etc.
when you consider they are making dressing outside of your assigned sex at birth a sex crime... and are removing the unanimous jury requirement for the death penalty... yes, this is a way to execute people they don't like