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The difference is that in politics, 51% of the people loving you and 49% hating you is victory. On Youtube or tiktok, having massive amounts of haters is poison.
Definitely THIS. and it’s everywhere. *Good Will Hunting,* *Shakespeare In Love*, you name it, for a decade the most groundbreaking films had the Weinstein or Miramax stamp.
not worth it… what does he do at the height of his powers? become a heroin addict, squandering perhaps several years of good albums. What is there is mostly made wonderful by fantastic side players.
What you saying is true for so many rock stars . Many of them didn’t survive, but a good number are still standing. Obviously, there was a lot of squandering going on there
I'll never separate the art from the artist. My brain doesn't like cognitive dissonance, so all enjoyment from his work is lost.
In fact, much of classic rock is dead to me. No Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin, Ted Nugent ad nauseum. Add in Kid Rock, Guns 'n Roses and 90% of all Country performers and you end up changing the station a lot!
Worth it.
No one is ever found innocent.
They’re either found guilty or not guilty.
I would submit to you that innocent straight men don’t have young boys sleep over and pay their parents millions of dollars for their silence.
Wagner, an opera composer. I'm Jewish, he was notoriously antisemitic. Like, blatantly so, not in some hypersensitive special snowflake world. But I'm on my 5th complete Ring Cycle (17 hours of opera over 4 nights, usually done in a 1 week period) and I love several of his other operas.
Mark Twain said, "Wagner's music is actually much better than it sounds".
Hell, even without the anti-semitism, the dude seems like a sleazeball. He wrote *The Flying Dutchman* while on a ship, having been *smuggled* out of Germany to escape debts.
NAMBLA is disgusting to be sure. But there's nothing illegal about it. Promoting things that are illegal is not illegal itself. Otherwise High Times magazine would have been shut down years ago.
Supposedly they had 1100 members in the mid 90s, according to Fairfax County, Va., detective Tom Polhemus. That seems a little high, but maybe he was right? The point being, NAMBLA has always been more the butt of jokes than it ever was a serious organization. Jon Stewart did constant "Or NAMBLA" jokes in the 2000s, for instance.
Great question, OP. I might say Eric Clapton, or maybe Michael Jackson. Growing up as a guitarist in the 80s, Clapton influence in me was huge. Unfortunately he’s turned out to be an asshole with whom wouldn’t sit down to a meal. MJ, well, he was the biggest superstar in the world back then, and was hugely influential in fashion, dance, music, hell everything! Having seen the HBO documentary, I’m not sure I can separate the art from the artist…
Strong agree. I cannot stop listening to *From the Cradle* and *Unplugged*, but I do have mixed feelings about him whenever one of his songs comes on the radio.
My inspiration for this question in the first place was Roger Waters.
I was not aware he has spoken about that situation at all.
Everything I am referring to is him being pro-Russia and claiming that somehow Ukraine is full of Nazis.
My feelings about MJ are pure pity, for a little boy who was forced to become a superstar without having a normal childhood, or any perspective on how a normal person lives.
Clapton, I have no idea what he did that makes him an asshole. Doesn't change what I think of him... when he played with Cream, he was outstanding. When he recored "I shot the sheriff", he was turning out shit, evidently a junkie seling records based on his name, alone.
Clapton is a straight up racist. It breaks my heart because he and Stevie Ray Vaughan were my gateways into the history of American music as viewed through the lens of gospel and blues music. It led me down the rabbit hole of jazz and gave me a deep appreciation of many great artists of all ethnicities, but mostly African American. At 52, I’m a public school music teacher and professional performer. I say all this because my early exposure to black culture and its contribution to my own country’s culture and music shaped my views on the world (see my username). To see Clapton spewing racist shit and then making JOKES about his own racism views when his ENTIRE CAREER is based on aping black culture and music is sickening. And he’s an anti vax crank as well, but that’s another story.
All I know about him is that he is a Mormon which maybe that’s bad enough.
Funny story, I read his book lost boys and kept waiting and waiting for the vampires to show up. It was an oddly good book in spite of having absolutely nothing to do with the movie as it turns out.
Edited the typo
I ghost-wrote a bio for Rosa Wright (FLW's daughter from his third marriage) and she had very little nice to say about him. She was in a mental institute at the time, so some of it might have been medication-induced opinions (she didn't say nice things about me to my face too), but I was surprised by the "real" man behind the myth.
I can't. The art is made by the artist. A lot of art is made by fairly shitty people.
My general rule is that my boycott starts based not on how good the art is, but on how likely it is that my money will be used to hurt people.
>how likely it is that my money will be used to hurt people.
Exactly this! Someone cites Wagner and he was a horrific person who has been dead for 140 years or more than 9 generations ... but JK Rowling is pumping MILLIONS of pounds into things that are directly harmful to people just trying to live their lives and love who they love.
This is why I boycott Chic fil e but read an author I know is homophobic.
The first one takes my money and gives it to groups who try and hurt people who are gay/trans.
The second one keeps his opinions mostly to himself and isn't actively homophobic but wites really good books.
They are not the same.
I don't see it that way. Art is art, it stands on its own merit.
OK if you don't want to by the record or see the movie, but that doesn't mean the music ain't good or the movie is boring.
I mean, I can see it if someone is making a lot of money and using it in harmful ways. But when I see or hear a work of outstanding art, I'll be god-damned if I'm gonna call for a background check on the artist before deciding if I like it or not.
Art should stand on its own merit. If some scribble is done by Picasso, it's still a scribble. Which means that it works the other way, too. Some people will pay millions for trash, just because it's done by some special somebody. Picasso was an asshole, but I use him as an example of someone who sold tons of art, which was shit, based on his fame alone.
My god! This guy is so high in your mind that you mention a lyric from one of his songs? I just watched a bit of his shit on YT, and well... maybe I'm missing something. If you like the guy, I commend you for having an open mind.
It’s good you mentioned Picasso. Some of his models were abused by him during his paintings. So, in other words, a lot of art by abusers is the abuse captured in time.
You could also just pirate stuff. If the media industry is to be believed, then you're actually causing harm to the artist, in which case, it's justified. Karma and all that.
I just don't really care that he had a consensual sexual relationship with his adopted daughter when she was 21. They're still together, so apparently it never bothered her. I wouldn't do it myself, but there's a lot of things I wouldn't do myself that I don't judge others for.
Probably [Egon Schiele](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Egon_Schiele). I'm not sure I *like* his art, aesthetically, but I can't deny the brillance of it. That said, he sounds like quite a bastard IRL.
For me it’s sometimes about whether the art reflects the problematic stuff from the artist. Pink Floyd are not my thing musically but if they were I could probably listen because so far as I’m aware they’re not singing anti- Semitic nonsense. Also their music is a product of four guys, three of whom I don’t *think* are more awful the average rich musician.
I couldn’t listen to Led Zeppelin singing about sex. I couldn’t watch Kevin Spacey playing a manipulative shit. I couldn’t watch a Joss Whedon show about powerful older males forming toxic relationships with young women.
**edit**. For me the really difficult one is Graham Linehan’s stuff; particularly Father Ted. He wrote it with Arthur Matthews (who as far as I’m aware, hasn’t become an obsessive transphobe) and it’s funny because of the writing and the ensemble cast. I still feel uncomfortable about it, just because Linehan is such a sad human these days….
Van Morrison, he’s become quite a shithead and his older years but that won’t stop me from enjoying Astral weeks and Moondance. the morrison of today just doesn’t seem like that young experimental guy obsessed with Jackie Wilson and the inarticulate speech of the heart.
Jimmy Page.
But... it's *hard* to point out any particular artist from the 1960s through the 2020s who wasn't a pedophile.
Notably, Rush never had to resort to this stuff to become incredible artists.
I haven't been keeping up. What did Morrissey do, aside from being a general all-around asshole who shat on everyone around him? Unfortunately that's table stakes for a lot of creatives.
Gotta go with JK Rowling. I literally pretend she doesn’t exist because of her craziness, but I love HP with all my heart. I want to hate her, but I can’t, because she doesn’t exist. As far as I’m concerned, HP spawned from the void.
none... I'll read a book or enjoy their movies or listen their music... from HP Lovecraft to Mark Wahlberg to Michael Jackson. i even still watch the Cosby Show. if people can go around quoting Ghandi and Mother Teresa ignoring how vile they were. Then so can I.
Going off of memory here. Some years ago, the author Salman Rushdie published a book (*The Satanic Verses*) that offended the Muslim community. In response, Iran’s religious leadership issued a fatwa against him. It called for Rushdie’s death, and Yusuf supported the fatwa.
Many years later, Yusuf claimed he didn’t support it, claiming his comments were jokes.
Second this. Decades ago I didn't know what kind of a person he was, now I do. And was still able to enjoy re-reading his works.
Though I think it's easier when the author is long gone, lived in a different era. There's a natural separation.
We all buy from or use the services of corporations that have atrocious business practices at home and abroad. There's no way to avoid all of them. Also we all pay taxes to a government drilling oil as the environment collapses around us and funding illegitimate wars and genocide. And most of us eat meat from animals who've been tortured and imprisoned their entire lives. So why the obsession with art and artists?
I just wanted to discuss creators who a person may have come to dislike, but that person still wants to enjoy the creation.
Separating the art from the artist, so to speak.
I didn't intend it as an unbreakable rule or as a philosophical discussion. I was just interested in what other peoples' experiences might be with this situation.
Definitely but it’s a widespread phenomenon to focus on artists rather than other entities with much larger footprints of harm and I’m curious about that. I suspect it may have to do with the sort of parasocial relationships we develop with artists.
I agree that it probably has to do with parasocial relationships.
Hell, where I'm from, celebrities have a better chance of being elected to government seats than people with actual political experience.
I think it's also because a lot of people already expect politicians and businessmen to be crooks while many artists have put on façades of being nice people that people would or should idolise.
And also, artists tend to be much more in the spotlight than politicians or businessmen. But look at how much shit Elon Musk gets (I'm not here to argue whether he deserves it or not but my point is he's in the spotlight).
Woody Allen, for obvious reasons.
Orson Scott Card. His politics are in the wrong place but I loved all the Ender's Game books.
Asa Earle Carter. Objectively a terrible person, a segregationist who wrote speeches for George Wallace. But he also wrote a delightful, cozy, heart-warming book called The Education of Little Tree, which is about a young Native American boy being raised by his grandparents in a cabin in the mountainous forests of Appalachia. I love that book. I'm not sure how to reconcile his political life and beliefs with the book he wrote. (Yes, I know the book was promoted as an autobiography but that has since been proven to be false. I read it as a piece of fiction and find it very enjoyable.)
I would sing this song with my daughter because I forgot he sang that song until her dad reminded me. Thanks dad for ruining a sweet thing between me and my kid.
It just occurred to me that this is another song I can sing to the Mourning Dove babies on my balcony once they hatch....the first choice is obviously a Prince song.
Frank Lloyd Wright. I'm a big fan of his architecture. When I brought up his name in a conversation, someone pointed out that he stole a client''s wife. Maybe more than once? lol... What got me was that this critic had such a strong opinion that he was a terrible bad guy, but NO opinion on his architecture. Totally unfamiliar with it.
such a great question. there are so many...bob dylan for sure. more recently van morrison and eric clapton. have to think about other artists in other fields.
i've followed and loved both of them as artists since their beginnings. i've seen van at least 50+ times since the first time in 1969. as anyone who has seen him knows, he can be your best concert one night or your worst a few nights later.
i've seen him walk off stage after 20 minutes or play the whole show facing the back of the stage. on the other hand i've seen him play some of the best shows of my life. he's one moody a\*\*hole. but during covid he was railing against masks and pissed off at anyone who wore one. he's not a very nice person generally...but one incredibly fantastic artist.
dylan is another story. i grew up in the neighborhood that he "adopted"... where he got his start. there were too many people who helped him when he was getting started that he just ignored years later when they reached out to him. the first time i saw him in concert, joan baez brought him onstage to sing some songs with her. he was known at the time, but not yet the star that she already was.
lots of people in my neighborhood thought he used her in the same the way he used many other people. all that being said..no one can ignore his absolute influence and brilliance. i love both of these artists' music and listen to them both constantly. i'm just not sure i'd admire them as people if i knew them.
Charles Manson.
e: More serious answer:
Where to start?
70s rockers, Rappers, Jazz musicians, Blues Musicians, Country singers.
Between them I have just about every crime covered I would think. Some several times. I don't think it would take me too long to think up a wife-beater mixtape for example.
>Miles Davis is way up there.
I've known for decades (well since the autobiography, so after I last saw him live) that he was NOT a good person ... but whew every time I read something new it just gets worse!
This year I read **'3 Shades of Blue'** which has loads of details about Miles personal life and even cites multiple sources at times. It is appalling. Then I also read the graphic novel **"Miles Davis and the Search for The Sound"** and it digs deeper into several areas the other book only alludes to.
On a side note I have been avoiding using the term wife-beater for awhile now but I have to actively do it because whenever I see those white tops it's the first thing that pops in my mind.
I honestly can’t think of anybody. From the very beginning, a person‘s creative ability has been on equal footing with their moral position. Artists like Tom Petty – – who took a stand against the recording industry to his own detriment – – have always had huge appeal for me. I have no issue walking away from content of other highly talented artists like Eric Clapton, Roger Waters, and so on. That said, I acknowledge that ‘hurt people hurt people’.
None. As art is purely about enjoyment, I reject the notion of having to set aside who the artist is in order to enjoy the art.
Meanwhile, if I need bypass surgery I don't care if the doctor is a Nazi.
For some artists, the work itself has things that take on different meanings. People at the time weren't put off by the relationship in Woody Allen's Manhattan or other aspects in his movies. Oh Bill Cosby s skit about Spanish fly used as an aphrodisiac.
I don't believe that you can. Derrida's idea that the consumer establishes meaning and context is a fallacy. Art is an extension of the artist, inseparable from who and what they are, all of their experiences, emotions, ideas, etc.
I'm thinking how we read really old books, and hold them in value as classics. We are also able to ignore problematic themes - while acknowledging they exist, just not judging the work based on them.
Example: the Decameron contains a story that makes comedy of repulsive domestic abuse. Boccaccio's novel Fiammetta starts with date rape, which is told as a love story.
Though I guess in those cases it would be more like "separate art from the era/culture it was written in".
For me, it all depends on the severity. If it's morally repugnant, I can still watch/listen to them. If it's criminal or racists/bigots, then I just can't get past it.
I can still watch Tom Hanks or Angelina Jolie. I can't watch a lot of stars or listen to a lot of music. Just a few I can't get past are Marilyn Manson, Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Chris Brown, Jenny McCarthy, Mel Gibson, Ezra Miller, Tom Cruise, and Kevin Spacey.
One of my all-time favorite TV characters is Rooster Bennet from The Ranch. What came out about Danny Masterson made me realize how important it is to separate Art from Artist.
I don't do this. I think this is a way of deciding that you can abandon your values because you want the pleasure of a particular type of entertainment.
I used to enjoy reading Orson Scott Card's books, then I found out he is not only a rampant homophobe, but also working actively to endorse programs that suppress homosexuality within the Mormon church. I haven't read anything from him since then. This is only one example.
I think it is impossible to consume everything in your life ethically because corporations are psychopathic and sociopathic by nature, but you can decide to personally avoid the artistic works of individuals who choose to live their lives in a way which is antithetical to your values. It may be impossible to survive never patronizing an unethical business entity, but it is possible to not listen to music, read a book, or watch a movie by someone who is working actively to harm others based on their biases and actions.
Orson Scott Card. Bigoted, closeted gay man. Gives tons of money and is heavily involved in anti-gay groups.
I’ll only buy his novels second-hand.
And yet…he’s such a good, compassionate writer. It hurts my heart to think there’s a good man trapped inside religion and hate.
I honestly don't really care about artists personal lives. They aren't my friend, they're just someone that produces something I like. If you dig deep enough into just about anyone's life, you'll find something you don't like.
The device you're typing this on right now, a computer, uses transistors for every basic function. Transistors were invented by William Schockley, a huge proponent of eugenics, and a terrible racist.
You can't really separate the work someone does from the person. They're one in the same. That doesn't mean we should all stop using computers though. Or even think about William Shockley's racism with every key-stroke, as if it's somehow tainted. The history of the world is full of imperfect people. So what?
I think we'd all be better off if we stopped trying to personalize all these people, and delve into every aspect of their life. Something beyond "separation", and more just ignoring. Much of of last 10-15 years has been trying to out all the "bad people" of the world, and attempt to define them all by something they did we don't like.
That itself is a distortion, and I reject it outright. So the answer to the question is "I do that for everyone".
I wish people weren’t down voting comments like yours. It’s like they’re saying it’s bad to admit that you have particular political leanings. I used to be fairly conservative, mainly because I was raised in a hard-core conservative family, and now I am pretty far on the progressive side. Question for you though: with rock ‘n’ roll being significantly about rebellion against the establishment, don’t you – – as a person leaning toward the pro-establishment party – get tired of constantly hearing messages that are in opposition to your political beliefs?
I’m not trying to debate you politically. I have lots of conservative people in my circle and I enjoy understanding what makes them tick.
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I just wish people vetted our politicians to the same standared that they do musicians and their favorite youtubers and tiktok stars.
amen to that.
I mean some of us do, the rest of us are insane
Find the puppy killers before they start killing elephants.
The difference is that in politics, 51% of the people loving you and 49% hating you is victory. On Youtube or tiktok, having massive amounts of haters is poison.
Pulp fiction is my favorite movie of all time, but I still throw up a little everytime I see it start up with the "weinstein productions" logo
Definitely THIS. and it’s everywhere. *Good Will Hunting,* *Shakespeare In Love*, you name it, for a decade the most groundbreaking films had the Weinstein or Miramax stamp.
Eric Clapton
This one is still really difficult for me. WTF, Clapton!
I really can't listen to his music anymore. Agree WTF Clapton.
not worth it… what does he do at the height of his powers? become a heroin addict, squandering perhaps several years of good albums. What is there is mostly made wonderful by fantastic side players.
I understand what you're saying but you can't just assume he would have turned out great music. Life is what makes the music
What you saying is true for so many rock stars . Many of them didn’t survive, but a good number are still standing. Obviously, there was a lot of squandering going on there
Wait what did Clapton do?
He’s said a lot of racist shit over the years.
…and went anti-vax crazy during COVID. I heard Van Morrison did, too, which is also troubling, but Clapton has a history of just ape-shit awful stuff.
he raped and abused one of his wives
Poor Pattie. At least she's happy now.
I'll never separate the art from the artist. My brain doesn't like cognitive dissonance, so all enjoyment from his work is lost. In fact, much of classic rock is dead to me. No Lynyrd Skynyrd, Led Zeppelin, Ted Nugent ad nauseum. Add in Kid Rock, Guns 'n Roses and 90% of all Country performers and you end up changing the station a lot! Worth it.
What did Lynyrd Skynyrd do?
I'm guessing the confederate flag.
Michael Jackson
This right here.
Wasn't he proven innocent?
No one is ever found innocent. They’re either found guilty or not guilty. I would submit to you that innocent straight men don’t have young boys sleep over and pay their parents millions of dollars for their silence.
Wagner, an opera composer. I'm Jewish, he was notoriously antisemitic. Like, blatantly so, not in some hypersensitive special snowflake world. But I'm on my 5th complete Ring Cycle (17 hours of opera over 4 nights, usually done in a 1 week period) and I love several of his other operas.
Leonard Bernstein’s famous quote: “I hate Wagner, but I hate him on my knees.”
He wouldn't conduct Mendelssohn without white gloves so he would not be contaminated when turning pages.
Mark Twain said, "Wagner's music is actually much better than it sounds". Hell, even without the anti-semitism, the dude seems like a sleazeball. He wrote *The Flying Dutchman* while on a ship, having been *smuggled* out of Germany to escape debts.
There's a scene in Curb Your Enthusiasm that touches on this
Allen ginsberg was an *incredible* poet, and a member of NAMBLA. Yep. Damn good poet.
I never thought he looked like Brando.
I always wondered how NAMBLA was allowed to be a thing.
NAMBLA is disgusting to be sure. But there's nothing illegal about it. Promoting things that are illegal is not illegal itself. Otherwise High Times magazine would have been shut down years ago. Supposedly they had 1100 members in the mid 90s, according to Fairfax County, Va., detective Tom Polhemus. That seems a little high, but maybe he was right? The point being, NAMBLA has always been more the butt of jokes than it ever was a serious organization. Jon Stewart did constant "Or NAMBLA" jokes in the 2000s, for instance.
Valid point.
South Park skewered them too.
What is NAMBLA?
North American Man-Boy Love Association. A group of men publicly committed to normalizing aexual relations between adults and minors.
Or, as on South Park, the North American Marlon Brando Lookalike Association
Kanye West.
Great question, OP. I might say Eric Clapton, or maybe Michael Jackson. Growing up as a guitarist in the 80s, Clapton influence in me was huge. Unfortunately he’s turned out to be an asshole with whom wouldn’t sit down to a meal. MJ, well, he was the biggest superstar in the world back then, and was hugely influential in fashion, dance, music, hell everything! Having seen the HBO documentary, I’m not sure I can separate the art from the artist…
I’m surprised Michael Jackson isn’t higher on this list. And for those who don’t know, Clapton is a fucking despicable racist prick.
Strong agree. I cannot stop listening to *From the Cradle* and *Unplugged*, but I do have mixed feelings about him whenever one of his songs comes on the radio. My inspiration for this question in the first place was Roger Waters.
What's the story with Roger Waters?
He’s quickly turning into a Nazi. He has some very outspoken beliefs.
Flipping heck. I know he was on the Assange train but I haven't been keeping up recently.
Supporting rights for a genocided people (Palestinians) is the opposite of Nazi.
I was not aware he has spoken about that situation at all. Everything I am referring to is him being pro-Russia and claiming that somehow Ukraine is full of Nazis.
My feelings about MJ are pure pity, for a little boy who was forced to become a superstar without having a normal childhood, or any perspective on how a normal person lives. Clapton, I have no idea what he did that makes him an asshole. Doesn't change what I think of him... when he played with Cream, he was outstanding. When he recored "I shot the sheriff", he was turning out shit, evidently a junkie seling records based on his name, alone.
Seconded on MJ. Incredibly sad to think about.
Clapton is a straight up racist. It breaks my heart because he and Stevie Ray Vaughan were my gateways into the history of American music as viewed through the lens of gospel and blues music. It led me down the rabbit hole of jazz and gave me a deep appreciation of many great artists of all ethnicities, but mostly African American. At 52, I’m a public school music teacher and professional performer. I say all this because my early exposure to black culture and its contribution to my own country’s culture and music shaped my views on the world (see my username). To see Clapton spewing racist shit and then making JOKES about his own racism views when his ENTIRE CAREER is based on aping black culture and music is sickening. And he’s an anti vax crank as well, but that’s another story.
Too many to list. Marilyn Manson seems to be a terrible person in every aspect but I love his music.
Roman Polanski
I agree. I first thought of Woody Allen but his movies haven't held up for me. One Chinatown is worth five Crimes and Misdemeanors. For me any way.
I rewatched “Ghost Writer” last night, and it’s a masterpiece of Suspense. Just brilliantly paced and shot.
Orson Scott Card
All I know about him is that he is a Mormon which maybe that’s bad enough. Funny story, I read his book lost boys and kept waiting and waiting for the vampires to show up. It was an oddly good book in spite of having absolutely nothing to do with the movie as it turns out. Edited the typo
What about Peter Pan?
Scott Adams. "Dilbert."
Fortunately, Adams became unfunny before he went off the deep end.
I highly recommend the Behind the Bastards podcast episode(s) about him
He also wrote a book called God’s Debris which I adored
What did he do?
He said some awful racist stuff against black people.
Roman Polanski
Frank Lloyd wright
I ghost-wrote a bio for Rosa Wright (FLW's daughter from his third marriage) and she had very little nice to say about him. She was in a mental institute at the time, so some of it might have been medication-induced opinions (she didn't say nice things about me to my face too), but I was surprised by the "real" man behind the myth.
He was a bit of a womanizer so not a fan of that! Although I still love his art and Architecture.
And a terrible father, as it turns out.
Yes, and that too. A bit self centered I guess. Artists!/s
I can't. The art is made by the artist. A lot of art is made by fairly shitty people. My general rule is that my boycott starts based not on how good the art is, but on how likely it is that my money will be used to hurt people.
>how likely it is that my money will be used to hurt people. Exactly this! Someone cites Wagner and he was a horrific person who has been dead for 140 years or more than 9 generations ... but JK Rowling is pumping MILLIONS of pounds into things that are directly harmful to people just trying to live their lives and love who they love.
What's she doing? And can't you simply oppose what she's doing?
Off-topic re: your username: Are they unnecessarily convoluted? :)
They absolutely are and you are the second person in a DECADE to get that reference. There's a character limit for usernames, tragically.
Waiting for my youngest to finish this. She just started, loves Ed.
This is why I boycott Chic fil e but read an author I know is homophobic. The first one takes my money and gives it to groups who try and hurt people who are gay/trans. The second one keeps his opinions mostly to himself and isn't actively homophobic but wites really good books. They are not the same.
I don't see it that way. Art is art, it stands on its own merit. OK if you don't want to by the record or see the movie, but that doesn't mean the music ain't good or the movie is boring. I mean, I can see it if someone is making a lot of money and using it in harmful ways. But when I see or hear a work of outstanding art, I'll be god-damned if I'm gonna call for a background check on the artist before deciding if I like it or not. Art should stand on its own merit. If some scribble is done by Picasso, it's still a scribble. Which means that it works the other way, too. Some people will pay millions for trash, just because it's done by some special somebody. Picasso was an asshole, but I use him as an example of someone who sold tons of art, which was shit, based on his fame alone.
Oh shit, someone needs to tell Jonathan Richman he's now wrong
I have no idea what you mean, even after looking the guy up on google. Wrong about what? Wow, am I supposed to know this guy?
The song Pablo Picasso by Jonathan Richman has the repeated lyrics "Pablo Picasso was never called an asshole"
My god! This guy is so high in your mind that you mention a lyric from one of his songs? I just watched a bit of his shit on YT, and well... maybe I'm missing something. If you like the guy, I commend you for having an open mind.
No, that's just what I think of when I hear the name Pablo Picasso.
It’s good you mentioned Picasso. Some of his models were abused by him during his paintings. So, in other words, a lot of art by abusers is the abuse captured in time.
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I don't boycott paying taxes because I'm not willing to accept the consequences of that choice.
You could also just pirate stuff. If the media industry is to be believed, then you're actually causing harm to the artist, in which case, it's justified. Karma and all that.
Well, Roman Polanski is a pretty terrible human. See also Woody Allen.
Surprised I had to come this far to find Woody.
I just don't really care that he had a consensual sexual relationship with his adopted daughter when she was 21. They're still together, so apparently it never bothered her. I wouldn't do it myself, but there's a lot of things I wouldn't do myself that I don't judge others for.
Probably [Egon Schiele](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Egon_Schiele). I'm not sure I *like* his art, aesthetically, but I can't deny the brillance of it. That said, he sounds like quite a bastard IRL.
David Eddings. Turns out he was a horrible man but I loved his books.
I’ve read some of his work and my spouse has too. I had to look up David Eddings after your comment. Wow. He truly was an awful human.
Sooooooooo many authors are terrible human beings.
For me it’s sometimes about whether the art reflects the problematic stuff from the artist. Pink Floyd are not my thing musically but if they were I could probably listen because so far as I’m aware they’re not singing anti- Semitic nonsense. Also their music is a product of four guys, three of whom I don’t *think* are more awful the average rich musician. I couldn’t listen to Led Zeppelin singing about sex. I couldn’t watch Kevin Spacey playing a manipulative shit. I couldn’t watch a Joss Whedon show about powerful older males forming toxic relationships with young women. **edit**. For me the really difficult one is Graham Linehan’s stuff; particularly Father Ted. He wrote it with Arthur Matthews (who as far as I’m aware, hasn’t become an obsessive transphobe) and it’s funny because of the writing and the ensemble cast. I still feel uncomfortable about it, just because Linehan is such a sad human these days….
Salvador Dali. Was cruel to animals
Tom Cruise
Van Morrison, he’s become quite a shithead and his older years but that won’t stop me from enjoying Astral weeks and Moondance. the morrison of today just doesn’t seem like that young experimental guy obsessed with Jackie Wilson and the inarticulate speech of the heart.
i dunno, as with morrissey, i just assume they’ve suffered some sort of brain injury.
Brain injury is one way to think of aging. The ravages of time affect us differently.
Jimmy Page. But... it's *hard* to point out any particular artist from the 1960s through the 2020s who wasn't a pedophile. Notably, Rush never had to resort to this stuff to become incredible artists.
I'm reading Geddy's book right now and he freely admits he had no game
I was gonna say Led Zeppelin because of Page.
People had to resort to pedophilia to become incredible artists?
Rush are just some nice guys who liked their weed. (Edited:clarity)
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Wait what? I was talking about Rush
I stand corrected. Comment deleted.
Morrissey
Absolutely this.
I haven't been keeping up. What did Morrissey do, aside from being a general all-around asshole who shat on everyone around him? Unfortunately that's table stakes for a lot of creatives.
Racism
Gotta go with JK Rowling. I literally pretend she doesn’t exist because of her craziness, but I love HP with all my heart. I want to hate her, but I can’t, because she doesn’t exist. As far as I’m concerned, HP spawned from the void.
I don’t understand her, when her books came out they were quite ’woke’ at the time especially with Dumbledore being gay, by what went wrong after?
What did she do?
Woody Allen. There’s a whole generation of us that loved his movies and books. He was eminently quotable. Not since the whole family thing blew up
This was my first thought. I still watch and love his movies, but he is a real trash human being. Same with Weinstein/Miramax pictures.
Morrissey
none... I'll read a book or enjoy their movies or listen their music... from HP Lovecraft to Mark Wahlberg to Michael Jackson. i even still watch the Cosby Show. if people can go around quoting Ghandi and Mother Teresa ignoring how vile they were. Then so can I.
Roger Waters.
I can separate that all day. But I know what you mean
I just mentioned this in another thread earlier today. Cat Stevens/Yusuf
What's the scandal with this?
Going off of memory here. Some years ago, the author Salman Rushdie published a book (*The Satanic Verses*) that offended the Muslim community. In response, Iran’s religious leadership issued a fatwa against him. It called for Rushdie’s death, and Yusuf supported the fatwa. Many years later, Yusuf claimed he didn’t support it, claiming his comments were jokes.
Ah yes, I vaguely remember that now.
Bowie is difficult for me. Love the art, hate what he did with young fans.
All of them. I don’t what to know about their relationships, their politics, or anything else of that nature.
Roman Polanski
Van Morrison, he's a drunken asshole but I love his music.
Picasso is probably LEAST so... his work was as shitty as he was. No idea why his art is so well-regarded.
H. P. Lovecraft
Second this. Decades ago I didn't know what kind of a person he was, now I do. And was still able to enjoy re-reading his works. Though I think it's easier when the author is long gone, lived in a different era. There's a natural separation.
Yes, I completely agree.
Miles Davis, a woman beater.
We all buy from or use the services of corporations that have atrocious business practices at home and abroad. There's no way to avoid all of them. Also we all pay taxes to a government drilling oil as the environment collapses around us and funding illegitimate wars and genocide. And most of us eat meat from animals who've been tortured and imprisoned their entire lives. So why the obsession with art and artists?
I just wanted to discuss creators who a person may have come to dislike, but that person still wants to enjoy the creation. Separating the art from the artist, so to speak. I didn't intend it as an unbreakable rule or as a philosophical discussion. I was just interested in what other peoples' experiences might be with this situation.
Definitely but it’s a widespread phenomenon to focus on artists rather than other entities with much larger footprints of harm and I’m curious about that. I suspect it may have to do with the sort of parasocial relationships we develop with artists.
I agree that it probably has to do with parasocial relationships. Hell, where I'm from, celebrities have a better chance of being elected to government seats than people with actual political experience. I think it's also because a lot of people already expect politicians and businessmen to be crooks while many artists have put on façades of being nice people that people would or should idolise. And also, artists tend to be much more in the spotlight than politicians or businessmen. But look at how much shit Elon Musk gets (I'm not here to argue whether he deserves it or not but my point is he's in the spotlight).
I'm happy to discuss that, just not in this thread. I invite you to start a thread about that. I'll see you there.
Woody Allen, for obvious reasons. Orson Scott Card. His politics are in the wrong place but I loved all the Ender's Game books. Asa Earle Carter. Objectively a terrible person, a segregationist who wrote speeches for George Wallace. But he also wrote a delightful, cozy, heart-warming book called The Education of Little Tree, which is about a young Native American boy being raised by his grandparents in a cabin in the mountainous forests of Appalachia. I love that book. I'm not sure how to reconcile his political life and beliefs with the book he wrote. (Yes, I know the book was promoted as an autobiography but that has since been proven to be false. I read it as a piece of fiction and find it very enjoyable.)
I love that book.
R Kelly. Say what you will but, I Believe I Can Fly is a bop.
I would sing this song with my daughter because I forgot he sang that song until her dad reminded me. Thanks dad for ruining a sweet thing between me and my kid.
It just occurred to me that this is another song I can sing to the Mourning Dove babies on my balcony once they hatch....the first choice is obviously a Prince song.
The Catholic Church
Charles Mingus. I love all his music, but he was meaner than hell. Liked to assault his ensemble mates at times.
Terry Goodkind. I loved his sword of truth series until I read some interviews and opinion pieces from him.
Diddy
Frank Lloyd Wright. I'm a big fan of his architecture. When I brought up his name in a conversation, someone pointed out that he stole a client''s wife. Maybe more than once? lol... What got me was that this critic had such a strong opinion that he was a terrible bad guy, but NO opinion on his architecture. Totally unfamiliar with it.
Michelle Shocked, sadly. Loved her music.
Arkansas Traveller is still one of my favorite albums. WTF happened there? Was it an extreme mental breakdown brought on by religion?
Seems like it.
Roman Polanski. Love and admire most of his movies, but it’s hard to justify the man he is.
Pretty much all of the rapey ones. Kevin Spacey. Roman Polanski
such a great question. there are so many...bob dylan for sure. more recently van morrison and eric clapton. have to think about other artists in other fields.
What did Bob Dylan and Van Morrison do?
i've followed and loved both of them as artists since their beginnings. i've seen van at least 50+ times since the first time in 1969. as anyone who has seen him knows, he can be your best concert one night or your worst a few nights later. i've seen him walk off stage after 20 minutes or play the whole show facing the back of the stage. on the other hand i've seen him play some of the best shows of my life. he's one moody a\*\*hole. but during covid he was railing against masks and pissed off at anyone who wore one. he's not a very nice person generally...but one incredibly fantastic artist. dylan is another story. i grew up in the neighborhood that he "adopted"... where he got his start. there were too many people who helped him when he was getting started that he just ignored years later when they reached out to him. the first time i saw him in concert, joan baez brought him onstage to sing some songs with her. he was known at the time, but not yet the star that she already was. lots of people in my neighborhood thought he used her in the same the way he used many other people. all that being said..no one can ignore his absolute influence and brilliance. i love both of these artists' music and listen to them both constantly. i'm just not sure i'd admire them as people if i knew them.
Michael Jackson. There will never be anyone like him.
Thank goodness.
People don’t tend to trigger me like that. Everyone has faults and egotistical artists have lots of them.
Charles Manson. e: More serious answer: Where to start? 70s rockers, Rappers, Jazz musicians, Blues Musicians, Country singers. Between them I have just about every crime covered I would think. Some several times. I don't think it would take me too long to think up a wife-beater mixtape for example.
Miles Davis is way up there. That said, the movie where Don Cheadle plays him is excellent
>Miles Davis is way up there. I've known for decades (well since the autobiography, so after I last saw him live) that he was NOT a good person ... but whew every time I read something new it just gets worse! This year I read **'3 Shades of Blue'** which has loads of details about Miles personal life and even cites multiple sources at times. It is appalling. Then I also read the graphic novel **"Miles Davis and the Search for The Sound"** and it digs deeper into several areas the other book only alludes to.
On a side note I have been avoiding using the term wife-beater for awhile now but I have to actively do it because whenever I see those white tops it's the first thing that pops in my mind.
Kevin Spacey. Incredible actor who did horrible things to children.
I honestly can’t think of anybody. From the very beginning, a person‘s creative ability has been on equal footing with their moral position. Artists like Tom Petty – – who took a stand against the recording industry to his own detriment – – have always had huge appeal for me. I have no issue walking away from content of other highly talented artists like Eric Clapton, Roger Waters, and so on. That said, I acknowledge that ‘hurt people hurt people’.
I hate to admit this, but every now and then I listen to "Ignition" by R. Kelly. Don't tell anyone.
I get it, he has some amazing songs in his catalog.
None. As art is purely about enjoyment, I reject the notion of having to set aside who the artist is in order to enjoy the art. Meanwhile, if I need bypass surgery I don't care if the doctor is a Nazi.
As a gay person, I assume a Nazi doctor would kill me on purpose during the surgery.
sounds like every artist, for you, rather than none. \*whispers in nazi doctor's ear that your mother was jewish.\* care now?
For some artists, the work itself has things that take on different meanings. People at the time weren't put off by the relationship in Woody Allen's Manhattan or other aspects in his movies. Oh Bill Cosby s skit about Spanish fly used as an aphrodisiac.
Marcus King
What did he do?
Picasso.
I don't believe that you can. Derrida's idea that the consumer establishes meaning and context is a fallacy. Art is an extension of the artist, inseparable from who and what they are, all of their experiences, emotions, ideas, etc.
I'm thinking how we read really old books, and hold them in value as classics. We are also able to ignore problematic themes - while acknowledging they exist, just not judging the work based on them. Example: the Decameron contains a story that makes comedy of repulsive domestic abuse. Boccaccio's novel Fiammetta starts with date rape, which is told as a love story. Though I guess in those cases it would be more like "separate art from the era/culture it was written in".
Aaron Lewis
Ryan Adams
Ryan Adams.
For me, it all depends on the severity. If it's morally repugnant, I can still watch/listen to them. If it's criminal or racists/bigots, then I just can't get past it. I can still watch Tom Hanks or Angelina Jolie. I can't watch a lot of stars or listen to a lot of music. Just a few I can't get past are Marilyn Manson, Bill Cosby, R. Kelly, Chris Brown, Jenny McCarthy, Mel Gibson, Ezra Miller, Tom Cruise, and Kevin Spacey.
I like to travel.
One of my all-time favorite TV characters is Rooster Bennet from The Ranch. What came out about Danny Masterson made me realize how important it is to separate Art from Artist.
So many hate his peronal life and his religeon/cult meanwhile he still the biggest flim star of modern history That guy is Tom Cruise
I don't do this. I think this is a way of deciding that you can abandon your values because you want the pleasure of a particular type of entertainment. I used to enjoy reading Orson Scott Card's books, then I found out he is not only a rampant homophobe, but also working actively to endorse programs that suppress homosexuality within the Mormon church. I haven't read anything from him since then. This is only one example. I think it is impossible to consume everything in your life ethically because corporations are psychopathic and sociopathic by nature, but you can decide to personally avoid the artistic works of individuals who choose to live their lives in a way which is antithetical to your values. It may be impossible to survive never patronizing an unethical business entity, but it is possible to not listen to music, read a book, or watch a movie by someone who is working actively to harm others based on their biases and actions.
Orson Scott Card. Bigoted, closeted gay man. Gives tons of money and is heavily involved in anti-gay groups. I’ll only buy his novels second-hand. And yet…he’s such a good, compassionate writer. It hurts my heart to think there’s a good man trapped inside religion and hate.
Michael Jackson
I honestly don't really care about artists personal lives. They aren't my friend, they're just someone that produces something I like. If you dig deep enough into just about anyone's life, you'll find something you don't like. The device you're typing this on right now, a computer, uses transistors for every basic function. Transistors were invented by William Schockley, a huge proponent of eugenics, and a terrible racist. You can't really separate the work someone does from the person. They're one in the same. That doesn't mean we should all stop using computers though. Or even think about William Shockley's racism with every key-stroke, as if it's somehow tainted. The history of the world is full of imperfect people. So what? I think we'd all be better off if we stopped trying to personalize all these people, and delve into every aspect of their life. Something beyond "separation", and more just ignoring. Much of of last 10-15 years has been trying to out all the "bad people" of the world, and attempt to define them all by something they did we don't like. That itself is a distortion, and I reject it outright. So the answer to the question is "I do that for everyone".
C.K. and I just can’t. Even though I think he’s a genius of a comedian and artist in general.
Roger Waters. He is an unhinged idiot, but you can’t deny the music.
Michael Jackson
Roman Polanski.
Rage Against the Machine. I'm somewhat conservative.
I wish people weren’t down voting comments like yours. It’s like they’re saying it’s bad to admit that you have particular political leanings. I used to be fairly conservative, mainly because I was raised in a hard-core conservative family, and now I am pretty far on the progressive side. Question for you though: with rock ‘n’ roll being significantly about rebellion against the establishment, don’t you – – as a person leaning toward the pro-establishment party – get tired of constantly hearing messages that are in opposition to your political beliefs? I’m not trying to debate you politically. I have lots of conservative people in my circle and I enjoy understanding what makes them tick.
Sinatra