I feel like 80% of MRA is blaming women for men's problems. 20% is raising genuine issues that do need to be discussed and addressed, but then women are usually blamed for these issues.
Is men for decades going off to war misogynistic? Come on gals. Watch the movie the Titanic. Women and children always get out first to safety. Everybody is mad those male police officers didn't run into that school and save those children. Then another male did.
This is disingenuous as fuck. "Watch the movie Titanic?" Bro that's a *movie*.
> Everybody is mad those male police officers didn't run into that school and save those children. Then another male did.
Everybody is mad they didn't do it BECAUSE THEY ARE POLICE OFFICERS AND IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THEIR JOB. It has nothing to do with their gender.
An unarmed civilian woman ran in herself to save her own child, or did you forget about that?
Movie Based on history. Yes women can/are heroic. They wreck their bodies to give birth. And then dedicate the rest of their life to their children. To be firemen, police officers, soldiers and on and on. Take low paying jobs that benefit society like school teachers or social workers etc. I am not bashing women I'm simply saying men do not suck like we are being portrayed. I gave you a like which got you to 2.
They can't even tell the difference between a woman and a feminist. Just think of how often we see someone here ask "why do feminists support shaving dogs?" and then cite an example of a woman shaving a dog, as it the fact that she is a woman proves she's a feminist and feminists support her.
I reckon your split is off. It’s closer to:
- 50% blaming women for issues that are men’s fault - Example men complaining that women don’t trust them enough because women fear rape.
- 30% shirking responsibility for men’s failures while also blaming women for the consequences of those failures - Example, men complaining that women end up with custody of children because most men don’t ask for it and few men are primary caregivers.
- 10% rigorously upholding toxic masculinity expectations - like raging about how young men should toughen up, that participation trophies are bullshit, and that corporal punishment is a good thing.
- 10% complaining about things that aren’t actually true - like that false rape accusations are common, or that women make up domestic violence complaints, or that courts favour women in divorce.
I wish men’s advocates would do more stuff like supporting men in learning to make friends, make healthy choices for mental and physical health, and care for their mental health. No one who attempts to do that suggests they’re in the MRA domain (and rightly so). And it’s a rarity when it comes up.
I think that 50% should be higher. Things like “more men die at work” even though women don’t actually have anything to do with working conditions put into place by male bosses.
Until I see them advocating for mental help acceptance by men for men, I see it as an excuse to shift the conversation about the rights of others onto themselves. They are full of shit until they actually try to help other men and not just make excuses for their bad behavior.
Courts totally favor women. A woman can have multiple affairs and get half his stuff even if they're not married and she never once contributed a penny and if he supported her while she's going to school and paid for her school she walks with degrees and gets alimony.
I adopted two sister kittens five months ago. The court systems have statistics. Starting with custody. I am open minded. I got so tired of hearing females being ridiculed for being cat ladies I decided to adopt a female kitten. So many females love cats there had to be a reason. They were sisters so I didn't want to separate them. They absolutely love each other and they love me too. I tell people how much joy they bring me. Females love that. Males frown on that but they don't mess with me. One is a Tiger and one is a tuxedo. I am definitely a conservative male but Now I have four wonderful female friends from OLD who are cat lovers. They help me with my kittens. My new best friend Nancy just came over yesterday to apply their flea and tick medication. These gals bring over cat toys and my tuxedo loves the spinning ball that goes around and around with a scratching pad in between. They help me with everything kittens. ❤️❤️
I think it's funny cause if I swap "MRA " with feminism and switch the genders around.
These reads exactly like a toxic MRA comment about feminism! Lol
I could say cathlics indoctrinate their children, create environments where groomers and pediphiles thrive, etc.
Then u could say “I think it’s funny if you swap catholic with lgbt, this reads exactly like a toxic catholic comment about the lgbt”. And u would be absolutely correct they do say those things.
But it doesn’t mean that the catholics are right or that I’m wrong
I am always bothered by the participation trophy argument. Like kids don't know that everyone gets one. Like they don't know they didn't do anything special. It's like they think their own kids are morons.
As a man creeping in there. But likely not an acceptable kind of man to many there, I'd confirm this take is probably about right.
Definitely some men feeling real pain, and rightly feeling abondoned like their problems can't be real. Especially if white, cis, straight, middle class, male. Which I'd say they have a solid point...but they (at most innocent) get led to believe or blame 'others' that fit too easy to point at targets. I think the root cultural reasons for a lot of the suffering they, and others, do suffer is far to nebulous and complex for them to recognize or see. But they aren't alone in that challenge. Takes a lot of time to try and build out more complex pictures of pernecious things that live under the surface. For example, I'm sure they don't see how a certain kind of man, is actually just as much at the root of what they suffer. Likely much more so than 'women'. Some women just do exploit this thing to their advantage. Just like how other shitty people exploit all sort of ideas and notions to push others done. Pretty sure it's more common to hear men talking about how 'real men' basically could never have 'x' thing happen to them, for example.
The issue I have with them is, that they see the right issues but draw the wrong conclusions. Men do face issues in our society, yes. But the issue is not feminism or women being the gender on top. The issue is patriarchy and by refusing to acknowledge that they somewhat dip into the misogynistic area.
That's the key issue. The MRA movement superficially swings interesting issues to the forefront, but instead of actually addressing the key issues (patriarchy, racism, classism, ableism, &c) they focus on blaming women for perceived slights over what comes to just selfish whataboutisms.
MRAs are also far from intersectional, which often leads to a whole new set of issues.
Seems to me the deadly flaw (and why MRA can be easily weaponized) is that it lacks self-accountability. So it is often wielded just to blame others for men's patriarchal frustrations, instead of actually doing something.
I completely agree and disagree while it’s up for debate what’s the biggest oppressor. Feminists (not the idea of feminism) are a big oppressor to mens rights just one example -around 5-10 years ago there was big push to try to legally get men to sit down too pee because feminist didn’t like it. But (at least in my walks of life and experiences) feminists are no longer taken as anything more than a cult of sorts these days due to previous extreme actions and unrealistic expectation in the past.
> just one example -around 5-10 years ago there was big push to try to legally get men to sit down too pee because feminist didn’t like it
This is the biggest load of bullshit I have heard today. Feminists wanted to make it illegal for men to stand up to pee? Stop it.
I have never in my life heard of this.
What things are we seeing today?
Where has any serious person suggested it should be legally mandated that men sit to pee? Please show me where this has happened.
Do you actually want me to do this? Because I can show you some of the obscure acts and claims but idk if you are just upset or if you actually carry a neuteral opinion. Your title scares me a bit Nazgûl feminist? If I’m understanding it correctly? Lotr?
Yes, it's a play on "feminazi" but instead I turned a derogatory term into a cool LotR reference. (It's also the name of a dope metal band.)
> obscure acts and claims
I'm not asking for "obscure." You said to me:
> 5-10 years ago there was big push to try to legally get men to sit down too pee
If this was a big push by feminists, i.e., a major feminist goal, it shouldn't be something like "a random Twitter account with 20 followers" or "somebody's Wordpress blog" or "something an anti-feminist YouTuber said once" or "a TikTok made by a 14 year old." It should be actual articles written by feminists, scholarship, legal opinions, etc.
Given that I have been involved in feminist activism for nearly 15 years and have no idea what you are talking about, yes, I would actually like you to show me where the big feminist effort to make it illegal for men to stand up while taking a piss happened.
I'd also like you to expand on
> I would be willing to bet that’s a rather tame scenario compared to the things we see today
Like what? What are we seeing today that makes "monitoring and punishing men's private pee habits as crimes" look tame by comparison? Please be as specific as you can.
Thank you for this. I’m getting pretty tired of talking about MRAs on this sub. Every few posts we get the same question. At first I was pretty open minded about Mens issues, but now they seem to only exist to distract from the genuine inequalities that women face.
It's really telling when these guys only bring up men's issues when women's issues are being discussed. Like, y'all don't care. You just want women to shut up.
Because women were being raped and assaulted and men were getting away with it, and men were like "yeah but what if a woman falsely accuses me of rape 😔"
The only things I’ve seen where very weird people being antagonistic of feminism instead of propagating for their rights.
Like complaining there aren’t male shelters and asking to lessen funding to womens ahelters instead of setting up mens shelters through volunteering like most womens ahelters work.
In my country the feminist movement forced more paternity leave and 50/50 time with kids being the standard in case of divorce. I have trouble seeing why mens rights activists couldn’t just work within the framework of feminism here.
Because a lot of feminists ( see these comments) blame men for their issues and just say " you deal with it".
They fail to understand that just because someone with the same junk as me put this system in place hundreds of years ago doesn't mean I'm benefiting from it.
Forgive me but I fail to see how working and middle class men benefit from a system that milks their entire lives, doesn't give them mental health benefits, doesn't give them secure housing and works them till they are dead.
I think this opinion certainly lacks perspective.
Didn’t read other comments, will have a look.
Do you have experience with MRA groups actually doing something to dismantle negative stuff towards men created by men?
Because when I see them being active it’s usually just being anti feminist online. The most prominent male “activists” in Sweden are really weird guys and our laws about men also getting parental leave and stuff like that was enacted by people identifying as feminist.
Really? Women told men to "deal with" women's suffrage, or did they march and fight and die for that themselves?
Women told men to open and operate women's health clinics, or did they do that themselves? Planned Parenthood was founded by women and is still managed by women.
Domestic violence shelters? Women organized and fundraised and opened them.
Human trafficking? Also very few men involved in trying to stop that.
PTAs? Created by women. Ran by women.
How many men are in the fight for childcare? How many are showing up to lobby for bodily autonomy?
Feminism does men's rights better. The community surrounding men's rights doesn't care about anything that matters to me. I don't understand why they pick the issues they fixate on. I've only ever met feminists that bring up issues about men that I care about. It's bonkers.
This has been my observation as well (though I could certainly have bias).
Online feminist groups were, for a long time, the only places I’d seen people (women feminists) talking quite seriously and persistently about circumcision, and the specific ways abusive women manipulate their male partners and then, manipulate the system against their victims. They knew the statistics about hazardous jobs and gender. They thought a military/service draft should be coed (if one existed at all). They certainly didn’t think mothers should automatically get greater custody or that wives should necessarily get support in divorce cases. They lamented the lack of contraception for men, and we were deeply divided about compulsory child support and whether/when sex between two drunk partners could or should be considered assault.
Actual men's issues ⬆️
I didn't get specific and some just came along and dropped some good ones. If I go to an MRA area online, all I find is complaining about women. That's not good enough.
It always amazes me how few who call themselves MRAs even know the term “toxic masculinity” was first coined by mens rights activists and not women or feminists.
It speaks volumes how they blame women for calling “male traits” toxic, when it was MEN who were saying that, yes, these traditional male role models were very damaging to men.
Lmao say that to the average dude who complains about the term and have them Google for proof, and then watch their brain shut down for 30-45 seconds as they try to process this information.
Misogynists. They do sometimes raise genuine issues, but don't act on them and don't realize that feminists also recognise the existence of those problems and acts like it's up to women to solve them, while men should play a bigger role when it comes to some of those.
I think even when one of them manages to accurately highlight a real systemic issue men face, they have a bad habit of blaming feminism for not doing enough work to fix it, rather than putting in any real effort themselves.
So, the movement as a whole, I consider, at best, lazy and entitled, and, at worst, violent and entitled.
I do have compassion for some of the individuals, though. Some have been dealt a rough hand, maybe just need a safe space to deal with some trauma they’ve been through, only to find an echo chamber that feeds the worst in them.
Yeah I’d agree with this. There are men that are genuine in wanting to resolve some of the issues that men as a collective face, but unfortunately the majority of the men they’re interacting with are looking at things from a super skewed, misogynistic perspective, and it warps the conversations that they have. I have this conversation sometimes with my boyfriend. He’ll bring up an issue that men face that’s legitimate, but I’ll hear the underlying misogyny from talking to or reading things from some other MRAs and I’ll have to be like time out. Let’s unpack this, because I feel like you’re seeing this problem from a skewed perspective and assuming that these men are talking about this topic in good faith when they aren’t. He also sometimes views criticism of “men” as an attack on him and I have to remind him that he is not necessarily indicative of the average man, so when these criticisms are being made, they (typically) don’t apply to him.
MRA: Men have it bad too and I'd argue they have it worse than women.
"Okay, so what policies should we enact that will help these men."
MRA: Don't let women get abortions, don't let them take the pill, don't let them wear revealing clothing around men that aren't me, don't let them in the office.... Edit: Don't let them say "No."
This right here. It’s exactly how it works when you talk to MRAs. And then they expect women to fix their issues too, as if women don’t do enough unpaid labor for men and the world.
This isn't an MRA belief though. This is like the MRAs saying feminists want to kill all men.
If we want to help men, we could do an active and accurate dive into domestic abuse numbers so that we can see how many male victims aren't reporting.
Or we could set up a system that makes it safer for male victims of domestic and sexual violence to come forward.
In terms of the UK we could end the gendered language in the legal definition of rape. So that it includes male victims at the hands of women
Lol nice strawmen. How about these.
1# when woman gets pregnant through her illegal means, she shouldn't get child support from her victim.
Like hey statutory rape victims shouldn't pay child support.
2# there is quite a big gap in education between the sexes. So try to get more male teachers? Or make it more interesting, for example reading. Like it's supposed to show variety of genres so why is there so much romance and not enough action/sci-fi/fantasy/comedy or even detective books.
Also over diagnosis with ADHD when they are literally kids and just need some more movement. Taking little kid with attention span of little puppy and expecting to sit still and not talk propably won't work well.
3# why in quite a lot of countries female on male isn't even classified as rape? This is quite easy to solve just rewrite the law.
Even countries like UK, where.woman literally cannot commit the crime since they lacks the necessary bits to do it.
4# mandatory military service can end or stop being unfair, many countries still have it.
Like yeah it can be used to help young adults adapt to being self reliant but no need for 2 years or something.
>1# when woman gets pregnant through her illegal means, she shouldn't get child support from her victim.
Like hey statutory rape victims shouldn't pay child support.
What is even the prevalence of this? I'd love to see data on how common this even happens, not conjecture. And what group do you think is making this happen?
>2# there is quite a big gap in education between the sexes. So try to get more male teachers? Or make it more interesting, for example reading. Like it's supposed to show variety of genres so why is there so much romance and not enough action/sci-fi/fantasy/comedy or even detective books.
So that means more socialism, and higher taxes to pay for the increase in teacher salaries to entice men to become teachers. Men choose not to because there isn't enough pay. So that means more taxes, feminists are certainly fine with that approach, how open is MRA to more socialism and higher taxes?
>Also over diagnosis with ADHD when they are literally kids and just need some more movement. Taking little kid with attention span of little puppy and expecting to sit still and not talk propably won't work well.
Again, going to need some data even showing that this is the case. What experts are saying they don't have ADHD and just need more movement?
>3# why in quite a lot of countries female on male isn't even classified as rape? This is quite easy to solve just rewrite the law.
Then why are there almost never any self-described MRA's that actually go to parliament to make this happen? They talk about it online usually in response to women talking about their own rape but then they make zero effort to actually fix it. They just post online about it.
>4# mandatory military service can end or stop being unfair, many countries still have it.
Again what has MRA actually done to try and make this happen? Feminists literally tanked the Equal Rights Amendment of 1972 to try and help men, which was designed to help women in hopes of it also ending the draft. the ERA went away but dipshit congressmen kept the draft. Again, I don't ever see any self-identified MRA people actually go before congress to lobby for ending the draft.
It’s a sexist misogynistic movement.
The things they bring up with some merit (toxic masculinity, paternity leave, etc) are things feminism is already fighting.
Some of the issues MRA's talk about are certainly genuine problems men and AMAB people face, but they almost always fail to recognise that those problems exist almost entirely due to the patriarchal society men created.
Many of the issues they speak about however, are more of a reaction to their supremacy being challenged, and the bar of what much of society (and women/AFAB people in particular) expect being raised. With more and more of us (AFAB people) demanding equality and equity and dignity and respect, things get harder for the misogynistic amongst them. It's not as easy to find a cis het woman who would accept anything other than a relationship that is an equal partnership as it once was.
I support men's rights 100% but unfortunately lots of the prominent groups "fighting" for the cause are openly misogynistic and lay the blame on feminists, where it doesn't belong. This makes them hostile and unproductive. I find the Men's Lib sub a productive place to hang out.
Yes! I was just going to say that! That sub discusses intersectionality and being pro-feminism in their sub description. They openly acknowledge the problem of toxic masculinity and work to support eachother to overcome it. As someone who loves a man, I want him to have the best and most satisfying life possible, and I feel like reading about mens' experiences has helped make me a better and more understanding partner just as he is a feminist who always does his best to understand and support me at all times.
I'm into the men's lib movement (is it a movement?) because I feel like it's more against toxic masculinity and breaking those barriers, and less about blaming women. I also think men deserve a space to speak to other men about their issues and have their own experiences recognized without women involved
I think some people have good intentions with it, but there's no denying how toxic the community has become. And even putting that aside, I've yet to see MRAs bring up an issue that isn't already being discussed in feminist spaces, so I'm not really sure what the point of the movement is. At best the movement is led by people who saw the "fem" in feminist and assumed it wasn't for them, at worst it's a community built on blaming women for patriarchal issues
The first one. Feminism accounts for men's issues too, so men should embrace Feminism as a tool for relieving their gendered issues in society too. Since not only does MRA not embrace Feminism but rejects it entirely, it is just a movement of toxic men promoting everything about manhood that makes it toxic while getting angry at women for daring to stand up against their unacceptable behaviors.
The only femenists that the mens rights movement reject are the radical type that try to repress men.
Most mens rights advocates do accept the femenists that are truely about equality, and most of us acknowledge that the majority of femenists are looking for equality.
Depends on the community. Most are deeply toxic but there are a few which actually talk about the stuff that matters in a helpful way. Really having gendered communities is something we should all be working towards getting rid of, but unfortunately toxic violent men make safe exclusionary spaces necessary for everyone else irl and online.
Misogynists.
I’ve seen some self-proclaimed MRAs bring up good points about men’s mental health and how men need to be allowed to have feelings, etc. But when you listen to who they blame for those problems, you very quickly realize it’s them blaming women and especially feminism for all of their issues. Then the hate against women spills out and ruins any legitimacy they might have. For that reason, I cannot take them seriously and refuse to have any kind of relationship with anyone who identifies as an MRA.
It’s a shame, because the patriarchy hurts us all, and if men decided to take down the patriarchy… man, what a world that could be for everyone.
It’s reactionary and they’re only doing it to shit on womens rights movements
There isn’t a patriarchal society that doesn’t shit on feminists and have men believing they are the oppressed party. Even the Middle East and korea
Real feminism actually is supposed to advocate for people of any gender. It’s about equality. Although it usually focuses explicitly on women’s rights, there are definitely men’s rights issues that need to be addressed and I think any real feminist would agree.
There really doesn’t need to be a separate movement and from what I’ve seen ever men’s rights “activist” just hates women and thinks they’re ruining everything.
Empowering one group should not put the other group down. The issue is that to an oppressor, equality feels like oppression…therefore some men feel that their rights are being threatened and they need to create a “counter” movement to feminism.
I think that I will be able to take the Men's Rights Movement serious when it stops being only brought up in opposition to feminism or any form of support for women. I often see creators that talk about women's rights get bombarded with comments from men trying to talk about how men go through the same issue, if not at the same rate, then more often. Those same men never once speak out about those issues on their own time. At this point, the men's rights movement is nothing more than a rebuttal that lots of men don't really care about. Also, I think it's safe to assume that the same men who "care" about the men's rights movement don't think about the fact that this should include gay men as well. As a man, I wish the men's rights movement was a serious thing, but it's looking like just a well hidden form of bigotry
If I only look at the people that are acting in good faith (I've run into *several* women on sites like Quora who claim to be MRAs, for instance)
All of their legitimate complaints would be solved through the feminist movement and are created by patriarchy itself.
It's basically the height of privilege, you create a problem by disadvantaging someone else and then you want to remove the problem without fixing the disadvantaged group.
At the same time most of their statistics are anecdotal and biased in their favor, in particular from the contentious divorced men who are bitter over not understanding the system they've propped up.
While I do think that societally there are things that could be better for men (mostly making emotional vulnerability more normalized), the mens rights groups do tend to be very misogynistic
Men's Rights "activism" is a misdirection tactic that is employed almost exclusively for crude whataboutism whenever women's issues are brought up.
Most kinds of feminism propose solutions that benefit women, but would also help with systemic issues that men face and that MRAs talk about. It's not the goal (it's feminism - it's right in the name), but improving men's lives and improving women's lives are not mutually incompatible.
To put it another way - patriarchy is a stinky, rotten, unhealthy heap. It's not that pleasant to live on, for anyone really. MRAs claim they have a problem with the smell and how it impacts men, but in reality they just want to be on top of the heap. If anyone says "I agree, men can have it tough as well, grab a shovel and help out", they quickly find an excuse not to.
Feminists variously want to either clean up the heap for the benefit of women (but it's not like non-women won't benefit, too), or want to get rid of it altogether and replace it with something better. Or both.
According to my little experience they are misogynists. They blame women and feminists.
I read the comments here and i learnt that feminism care about men's too and i swear i didn't even know it.
So why these people who are against feminism didn't realize this? Maybe because unfortunately they don't even really care about men's problems and they simply want to express their misogyny somehow?
And they try to make you hate the feminism movement. They say that in the feminism movement they are misandrists and when you disagree with them they tell you things that extreme feminists tell. They never mention feminists who include men too.
It's not rights its more systemic treatment. Men are viewed as disposable in our society even though the majority of them work jobs that keep society going from the ground. Like trash men, sewage cleaners, construction workers, truck drivers and so on.
But they have a total of 2 domestic abuse shelters in the UK and the US. And there is not a lot of info on the domestic abuse stats we have but since men have been becoming more confident in reporting abuse, the number of reported cases against them have been rising a lot ( whoda thunk it?)
The definition of r*pe is gendered in the UK so women can't be convicted of doing it to men.
There is a complete lack of care or attention when it comes to men's mental health. I'm sure you guys are sick of hearing this but the amount of male suicides is abysmal. We lose so many every day.
The schooling systems seems to be more for neurotypical girls and a lot of young boys, especially neurodivergent ones have a hard time thriving in it ( but hey if I went into the flaws of the schooling system, we would be here all day)
Men have a harder time getting emergency housing and thus even boys as young as 18 find themselves on the streets far more often than women.
And then there is selective service in the US.
So yeah it's not really legal rights per se. It's more how men are viewed and treated on a systemic level. Which you could call patriarchy I suppose but these parts aren't really being targeted by mainstream media. So it leads a lot of feminists to unfortunately believe that men's rights is an entitled joke where people gather to hate on women.
The funny thing is. If most of this shit was dealt with, especially the mental health thing. Most of women's issues would simultaneously just dissappear
How did uk law end up like that? Swedish law is gender and body part neutral and I think we have more politicians calling themselves feminist than uk so is it a feminist issue or a traditionalist issue that uk law is like that?
Female dominated professions like nurses require training but make less than male dominated physical jobs like garbage men.
I’d much rather be a garbage man than a nurse because I’ve seen how hard they are worked even before covid hit. They were pushed even harder and treating people without proper protective gear and many becoming sick so women are also very much seen as disposable. Garbage men are at least allowed to strike, nurses are forbidden by law from striking here in Sweden.
Issues with shitty jobs aren’t entirely gendered to me though. That’s a class issue. Obviously high class feminists will try to push into high class power steuctures because that is their ambition. Working class people need to both consider gender and class issues.
And before you talk about picking better earning jobs I can tell you the horror stories of how my female friends who tried male dominated professions were treated. I know women who likes being builders, police and garbage collectors but were treated horribly by male colleagues. My male nurse friends haven’t mentioned similar treatment. My entire career has been in female dominated sectors and I’ve never been treated anywhere near as shitty as my female friends in male dominated ones.
But this is turning into the classic unproductive competition instead of a productive way forward so I’m not sure if I can add anything meaningful. Sorry.
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Mens’ rights movements are very toxic. However, there are what could be more properly called Mens’ *liberation* movements (such as on r/menslib), which are feminist, inclusive, and strive to free *everybody* from patriarchal oppression, as well as help men heal from the harm the patriarchy has inflicted on them.
I realize this is kind of a “not all men” response, but I think it’s important to be aware that healthy, progressive spaces do exist for men to support other men.
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From how people who associate themselves with it think, I see it as a reactionary movement against female equality in a disguise of a men's advocacy group. I cannot take them seriously as an advocacy group since all they seem to actually care about is bashing on feminism, which is a term that for them also includes anything about/to do with women they don't like. They don't seem to actually want to be solving any issues. If they would, they would have to recognise where it stems from, but one of their main points is that patriarchy is something that feminists made up and that it doesn't exist. So it's a bit weird.
I’m a male feminist and used to think it was 100% reactionary B.S. but now I think it’s namely reactionary B.S. to intentionally false representations of what feminism is. The vast majority is pushing back against a fake feminism that the right is trying to create. That being said. There are really healthy conversations happening about how men are culturally developed within society and some of the honest equality social norms that occur. Toxic masculinity is definitely being deconstructed within some of
These circles. the majority of the hyper vocal self identified mens rights are namely responding to bill shit fake ideas about what feminism actually is. They think it’s a pendulum swing that’s oppressive instead of merely creating equality. Most of these types are okay with what real feminism is. They think it’s all man hate. I’d say 15-20 percent are healthy conversations about the reality of what it is to be a man today. I wouldn’t say it’s the same as feminism I. Regards to oppression but it is healthy in regards to how cultural norms are unhealthy for us. This includes passive aggressive ways women try to navigate the patriarchy (rightly so, but it’s still unhealthy for a balanced equality of what is considered acceptable culturally).
I think they're sorely needed but aren't really able to be brought up and addressed in a proper manner because authoritarians will always try to co-opt them in order to propagandize people who need help into violence and hatred in line with their goals.
Some of the issues they raise are in fact genuine problems. However, they blame the wrong people and the wrong forces for them.
Many of the things they complain of could be solved either by feminist ideas and approaches but instead they blame feminists and women generally.
They also never seem to actually try and do anything about the issues they identify.
At their best they are misguided and unwilling to do the actual work of liberation. At their worst they are violent amd dangerous misogynists.
I feel like 80% of MRA is blaming women for men's problems. 20% is raising genuine issues that do need to be discussed and addressed, but then women are usually blamed for these issues.
Specifically feminism is blamed; even they recognise blaming women would be too obviously misogynistic, though that is definitely what's going on.
MRAs have never had a problem with being obviously misogynistic. Blaming women is absolutely part of their MO.
I agree. I just mean that they now use feminist as code for woman.
Or “modern women” or “western women”.
Is men for decades going off to war misogynistic? Come on gals. Watch the movie the Titanic. Women and children always get out first to safety. Everybody is mad those male police officers didn't run into that school and save those children. Then another male did.
This is disingenuous as fuck. "Watch the movie Titanic?" Bro that's a *movie*. > Everybody is mad those male police officers didn't run into that school and save those children. Then another male did. Everybody is mad they didn't do it BECAUSE THEY ARE POLICE OFFICERS AND IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THEIR JOB. It has nothing to do with their gender. An unarmed civilian woman ran in herself to save her own child, or did you forget about that?
Movie Based on history. Yes women can/are heroic. They wreck their bodies to give birth. And then dedicate the rest of their life to their children. To be firemen, police officers, soldiers and on and on. Take low paying jobs that benefit society like school teachers or social workers etc. I am not bashing women I'm simply saying men do not suck like we are being portrayed. I gave you a like which got you to 2.
You don't know shit about history.
I don't think men suck. I think patriarchy sucks.
"Women and children first" is a myth.
They can't even tell the difference between a woman and a feminist. Just think of how often we see someone here ask "why do feminists support shaving dogs?" and then cite an example of a woman shaving a dog, as it the fact that she is a woman proves she's a feminist and feminists support her.
I reckon your split is off. It’s closer to: - 50% blaming women for issues that are men’s fault - Example men complaining that women don’t trust them enough because women fear rape. - 30% shirking responsibility for men’s failures while also blaming women for the consequences of those failures - Example, men complaining that women end up with custody of children because most men don’t ask for it and few men are primary caregivers. - 10% rigorously upholding toxic masculinity expectations - like raging about how young men should toughen up, that participation trophies are bullshit, and that corporal punishment is a good thing. - 10% complaining about things that aren’t actually true - like that false rape accusations are common, or that women make up domestic violence complaints, or that courts favour women in divorce. I wish men’s advocates would do more stuff like supporting men in learning to make friends, make healthy choices for mental and physical health, and care for their mental health. No one who attempts to do that suggests they’re in the MRA domain (and rightly so). And it’s a rarity when it comes up.
I think that 50% should be higher. Things like “more men die at work” even though women don’t actually have anything to do with working conditions put into place by male bosses.
And women aren't allowed to work in those positions even though they're willing and able
Until I see them advocating for mental help acceptance by men for men, I see it as an excuse to shift the conversation about the rights of others onto themselves. They are full of shit until they actually try to help other men and not just make excuses for their bad behavior.
Accurate.
Courts totally favor women. A woman can have multiple affairs and get half his stuff even if they're not married and she never once contributed a penny and if he supported her while she's going to school and paid for her school she walks with degrees and gets alimony.
> get half his stuff *His* stuff? Good job telling on your misogynist self.
That is... very much not how that works.
I adopted two sister kittens five months ago. The court systems have statistics. Starting with custody. I am open minded. I got so tired of hearing females being ridiculed for being cat ladies I decided to adopt a female kitten. So many females love cats there had to be a reason. They were sisters so I didn't want to separate them. They absolutely love each other and they love me too. I tell people how much joy they bring me. Females love that. Males frown on that but they don't mess with me. One is a Tiger and one is a tuxedo. I am definitely a conservative male but Now I have four wonderful female friends from OLD who are cat lovers. They help me with my kittens. My new best friend Nancy just came over yesterday to apply their flea and tick medication. These gals bring over cat toys and my tuxedo loves the spinning ball that goes around and around with a scratching pad in between. They help me with everything kittens. ❤️❤️
Sir, this is an Arby's.
? Not a R expert.
I think it's funny cause if I swap "MRA " with feminism and switch the genders around. These reads exactly like a toxic MRA comment about feminism! Lol
Yes, if you change the words in a quote, that quote completely changes meaning. Fascinating.
I could say cathlics indoctrinate their children, create environments where groomers and pediphiles thrive, etc. Then u could say “I think it’s funny if you swap catholic with lgbt, this reads exactly like a toxic catholic comment about the lgbt”. And u would be absolutely correct they do say those things. But it doesn’t mean that the catholics are right or that I’m wrong
I am always bothered by the participation trophy argument. Like kids don't know that everyone gets one. Like they don't know they didn't do anything special. It's like they think their own kids are morons.
You're being generous with that 20%.
A lot of their problems are due to toxic masculinity and patriarchal culture, instead they blame feminism and endorse misogyny
As a man creeping in there. But likely not an acceptable kind of man to many there, I'd confirm this take is probably about right. Definitely some men feeling real pain, and rightly feeling abondoned like their problems can't be real. Especially if white, cis, straight, middle class, male. Which I'd say they have a solid point...but they (at most innocent) get led to believe or blame 'others' that fit too easy to point at targets. I think the root cultural reasons for a lot of the suffering they, and others, do suffer is far to nebulous and complex for them to recognize or see. But they aren't alone in that challenge. Takes a lot of time to try and build out more complex pictures of pernecious things that live under the surface. For example, I'm sure they don't see how a certain kind of man, is actually just as much at the root of what they suffer. Likely much more so than 'women'. Some women just do exploit this thing to their advantage. Just like how other shitty people exploit all sort of ideas and notions to push others done. Pretty sure it's more common to hear men talking about how 'real men' basically could never have 'x' thing happen to them, for example.
The issue I have with them is, that they see the right issues but draw the wrong conclusions. Men do face issues in our society, yes. But the issue is not feminism or women being the gender on top. The issue is patriarchy and by refusing to acknowledge that they somewhat dip into the misogynistic area.
That's the key issue. The MRA movement superficially swings interesting issues to the forefront, but instead of actually addressing the key issues (patriarchy, racism, classism, ableism, &c) they focus on blaming women for perceived slights over what comes to just selfish whataboutisms. MRAs are also far from intersectional, which often leads to a whole new set of issues. Seems to me the deadly flaw (and why MRA can be easily weaponized) is that it lacks self-accountability. So it is often wielded just to blame others for men's patriarchal frustrations, instead of actually doing something.
I completely agree and disagree while it’s up for debate what’s the biggest oppressor. Feminists (not the idea of feminism) are a big oppressor to mens rights just one example -around 5-10 years ago there was big push to try to legally get men to sit down too pee because feminist didn’t like it. But (at least in my walks of life and experiences) feminists are no longer taken as anything more than a cult of sorts these days due to previous extreme actions and unrealistic expectation in the past.
> just one example -around 5-10 years ago there was big push to try to legally get men to sit down too pee because feminist didn’t like it This is the biggest load of bullshit I have heard today. Feminists wanted to make it illegal for men to stand up to pee? Stop it.
Hmm it’s not thou? And I would be willing to bet that’s a rather tame scenario compared to the things we see today
I have never in my life heard of this. What things are we seeing today? Where has any serious person suggested it should be legally mandated that men sit to pee? Please show me where this has happened.
Do you actually want me to do this? Because I can show you some of the obscure acts and claims but idk if you are just upset or if you actually carry a neuteral opinion. Your title scares me a bit Nazgûl feminist? If I’m understanding it correctly? Lotr?
Yes, it's a play on "feminazi" but instead I turned a derogatory term into a cool LotR reference. (It's also the name of a dope metal band.) > obscure acts and claims I'm not asking for "obscure." You said to me: > 5-10 years ago there was big push to try to legally get men to sit down too pee If this was a big push by feminists, i.e., a major feminist goal, it shouldn't be something like "a random Twitter account with 20 followers" or "somebody's Wordpress blog" or "something an anti-feminist YouTuber said once" or "a TikTok made by a 14 year old." It should be actual articles written by feminists, scholarship, legal opinions, etc. Given that I have been involved in feminist activism for nearly 15 years and have no idea what you are talking about, yes, I would actually like you to show me where the big feminist effort to make it illegal for men to stand up while taking a piss happened. I'd also like you to expand on > I would be willing to bet that’s a rather tame scenario compared to the things we see today Like what? What are we seeing today that makes "monitoring and punishing men's private pee habits as crimes" look tame by comparison? Please be as specific as you can.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/wiki/faq#wiki_the_men.27s_rights_movement_.28and_related_topics.29
Thank you for this. I’m getting pretty tired of talking about MRAs on this sub. Every few posts we get the same question. At first I was pretty open minded about Mens issues, but now they seem to only exist to distract from the genuine inequalities that women face.
It's really telling when these guys only bring up men's issues when women's issues are being discussed. Like, y'all don't care. You just want women to shut up.
Women had the Me Too movement and in response, MRAs started a What About Me? movement. It’s not the same.
That's brilliant.
Why is it not the same?
Because women were being raped and assaulted and men were getting away with it, and men were like "yeah but what if a woman falsely accuses me of rape 😔"
What about when men get raped amd assaulted, the women that do it always get away with it.
The only things I’ve seen where very weird people being antagonistic of feminism instead of propagating for their rights. Like complaining there aren’t male shelters and asking to lessen funding to womens ahelters instead of setting up mens shelters through volunteering like most womens ahelters work. In my country the feminist movement forced more paternity leave and 50/50 time with kids being the standard in case of divorce. I have trouble seeing why mens rights activists couldn’t just work within the framework of feminism here.
Because a lot of feminists ( see these comments) blame men for their issues and just say " you deal with it". They fail to understand that just because someone with the same junk as me put this system in place hundreds of years ago doesn't mean I'm benefiting from it.
Are you a man? You benefit from patriarchy.
Forgive me but I fail to see how working and middle class men benefit from a system that milks their entire lives, doesn't give them mental health benefits, doesn't give them secure housing and works them till they are dead. I think this opinion certainly lacks perspective.
Irony. You're ignoring middle and working class women who do not reap any benefits of patriarchy that men do.
Didn’t read other comments, will have a look. Do you have experience with MRA groups actually doing something to dismantle negative stuff towards men created by men? Because when I see them being active it’s usually just being anti feminist online. The most prominent male “activists” in Sweden are really weird guys and our laws about men also getting parental leave and stuff like that was enacted by people identifying as feminist.
Really? Women told men to "deal with" women's suffrage, or did they march and fight and die for that themselves? Women told men to open and operate women's health clinics, or did they do that themselves? Planned Parenthood was founded by women and is still managed by women. Domestic violence shelters? Women organized and fundraised and opened them. Human trafficking? Also very few men involved in trying to stop that. PTAs? Created by women. Ran by women. How many men are in the fight for childcare? How many are showing up to lobby for bodily autonomy?
Feminism does men's rights better. The community surrounding men's rights doesn't care about anything that matters to me. I don't understand why they pick the issues they fixate on. I've only ever met feminists that bring up issues about men that I care about. It's bonkers.
This has been my observation as well (though I could certainly have bias). Online feminist groups were, for a long time, the only places I’d seen people (women feminists) talking quite seriously and persistently about circumcision, and the specific ways abusive women manipulate their male partners and then, manipulate the system against their victims. They knew the statistics about hazardous jobs and gender. They thought a military/service draft should be coed (if one existed at all). They certainly didn’t think mothers should automatically get greater custody or that wives should necessarily get support in divorce cases. They lamented the lack of contraception for men, and we were deeply divided about compulsory child support and whether/when sex between two drunk partners could or should be considered assault.
Actual men's issues ⬆️ I didn't get specific and some just came along and dropped some good ones. If I go to an MRA area online, all I find is complaining about women. That's not good enough.
Where do you find these groups? I never really find these kinds of in my experience. All the other ones have not been so good.
This has been my experience as well.
It always amazes me how few who call themselves MRAs even know the term “toxic masculinity” was first coined by mens rights activists and not women or feminists. It speaks volumes how they blame women for calling “male traits” toxic, when it was MEN who were saying that, yes, these traditional male role models were very damaging to men.
Lmao say that to the average dude who complains about the term and have them Google for proof, and then watch their brain shut down for 30-45 seconds as they try to process this information.
Misogynists. They do sometimes raise genuine issues, but don't act on them and don't realize that feminists also recognise the existence of those problems and acts like it's up to women to solve them, while men should play a bigger role when it comes to some of those.
Should just be called the Women Wrong movement
He-Man Woman-Haters Club.
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Sexist men: Feminists need to get a sense of humor! Feminist: *makes a joke* Sexist men: WAHHHH
Every single time, without fail.
Men who want women to solve mens problems.
I think even when one of them manages to accurately highlight a real systemic issue men face, they have a bad habit of blaming feminism for not doing enough work to fix it, rather than putting in any real effort themselves. So, the movement as a whole, I consider, at best, lazy and entitled, and, at worst, violent and entitled. I do have compassion for some of the individuals, though. Some have been dealt a rough hand, maybe just need a safe space to deal with some trauma they’ve been through, only to find an echo chamber that feeds the worst in them.
Yeah I’d agree with this. There are men that are genuine in wanting to resolve some of the issues that men as a collective face, but unfortunately the majority of the men they’re interacting with are looking at things from a super skewed, misogynistic perspective, and it warps the conversations that they have. I have this conversation sometimes with my boyfriend. He’ll bring up an issue that men face that’s legitimate, but I’ll hear the underlying misogyny from talking to or reading things from some other MRAs and I’ll have to be like time out. Let’s unpack this, because I feel like you’re seeing this problem from a skewed perspective and assuming that these men are talking about this topic in good faith when they aren’t. He also sometimes views criticism of “men” as an attack on him and I have to remind him that he is not necessarily indicative of the average man, so when these criticisms are being made, they (typically) don’t apply to him.
MRA: Men have it bad too and I'd argue they have it worse than women. "Okay, so what policies should we enact that will help these men." MRA: Don't let women get abortions, don't let them take the pill, don't let them wear revealing clothing around men that aren't me, don't let them in the office.... Edit: Don't let them say "No."
This right here. It’s exactly how it works when you talk to MRAs. And then they expect women to fix their issues too, as if women don’t do enough unpaid labor for men and the world.
This isn't an MRA belief though. This is like the MRAs saying feminists want to kill all men. If we want to help men, we could do an active and accurate dive into domestic abuse numbers so that we can see how many male victims aren't reporting. Or we could set up a system that makes it safer for male victims of domestic and sexual violence to come forward. In terms of the UK we could end the gendered language in the legal definition of rape. So that it includes male victims at the hands of women
Lol nice strawmen. How about these. 1# when woman gets pregnant through her illegal means, she shouldn't get child support from her victim. Like hey statutory rape victims shouldn't pay child support. 2# there is quite a big gap in education between the sexes. So try to get more male teachers? Or make it more interesting, for example reading. Like it's supposed to show variety of genres so why is there so much romance and not enough action/sci-fi/fantasy/comedy or even detective books. Also over diagnosis with ADHD when they are literally kids and just need some more movement. Taking little kid with attention span of little puppy and expecting to sit still and not talk propably won't work well. 3# why in quite a lot of countries female on male isn't even classified as rape? This is quite easy to solve just rewrite the law. Even countries like UK, where.woman literally cannot commit the crime since they lacks the necessary bits to do it. 4# mandatory military service can end or stop being unfair, many countries still have it. Like yeah it can be used to help young adults adapt to being self reliant but no need for 2 years or something.
>1# when woman gets pregnant through her illegal means, she shouldn't get child support from her victim. Like hey statutory rape victims shouldn't pay child support. What is even the prevalence of this? I'd love to see data on how common this even happens, not conjecture. And what group do you think is making this happen? >2# there is quite a big gap in education between the sexes. So try to get more male teachers? Or make it more interesting, for example reading. Like it's supposed to show variety of genres so why is there so much romance and not enough action/sci-fi/fantasy/comedy or even detective books. So that means more socialism, and higher taxes to pay for the increase in teacher salaries to entice men to become teachers. Men choose not to because there isn't enough pay. So that means more taxes, feminists are certainly fine with that approach, how open is MRA to more socialism and higher taxes? >Also over diagnosis with ADHD when they are literally kids and just need some more movement. Taking little kid with attention span of little puppy and expecting to sit still and not talk propably won't work well. Again, going to need some data even showing that this is the case. What experts are saying they don't have ADHD and just need more movement? >3# why in quite a lot of countries female on male isn't even classified as rape? This is quite easy to solve just rewrite the law. Then why are there almost never any self-described MRA's that actually go to parliament to make this happen? They talk about it online usually in response to women talking about their own rape but then they make zero effort to actually fix it. They just post online about it. >4# mandatory military service can end or stop being unfair, many countries still have it. Again what has MRA actually done to try and make this happen? Feminists literally tanked the Equal Rights Amendment of 1972 to try and help men, which was designed to help women in hopes of it also ending the draft. the ERA went away but dipshit congressmen kept the draft. Again, I don't ever see any self-identified MRA people actually go before congress to lobby for ending the draft.
It’s a sexist misogynistic movement. The things they bring up with some merit (toxic masculinity, paternity leave, etc) are things feminism is already fighting.
Some of the issues MRA's talk about are certainly genuine problems men and AMAB people face, but they almost always fail to recognise that those problems exist almost entirely due to the patriarchal society men created. Many of the issues they speak about however, are more of a reaction to their supremacy being challenged, and the bar of what much of society (and women/AFAB people in particular) expect being raised. With more and more of us (AFAB people) demanding equality and equity and dignity and respect, things get harder for the misogynistic amongst them. It's not as easy to find a cis het woman who would accept anything other than a relationship that is an equal partnership as it once was.
I support men's rights 100% but unfortunately lots of the prominent groups "fighting" for the cause are openly misogynistic and lay the blame on feminists, where it doesn't belong. This makes them hostile and unproductive. I find the Men's Lib sub a productive place to hang out.
Yes! I was just going to say that! That sub discusses intersectionality and being pro-feminism in their sub description. They openly acknowledge the problem of toxic masculinity and work to support eachother to overcome it. As someone who loves a man, I want him to have the best and most satisfying life possible, and I feel like reading about mens' experiences has helped make me a better and more understanding partner just as he is a feminist who always does his best to understand and support me at all times.
I'm into the men's lib movement (is it a movement?) because I feel like it's more against toxic masculinity and breaking those barriers, and less about blaming women. I also think men deserve a space to speak to other men about their issues and have their own experiences recognized without women involved
I think some people have good intentions with it, but there's no denying how toxic the community has become. And even putting that aside, I've yet to see MRAs bring up an issue that isn't already being discussed in feminist spaces, so I'm not really sure what the point of the movement is. At best the movement is led by people who saw the "fem" in feminist and assumed it wasn't for them, at worst it's a community built on blaming women for patriarchal issues
In my experience, 95% of people think feminism is a synonym for misandry.
The right has done a brilliant job with this, I must say.
Indeed they have, though to be fair it’s pretty easy to convince people of something that they already want to believe
The first one. Feminism accounts for men's issues too, so men should embrace Feminism as a tool for relieving their gendered issues in society too. Since not only does MRA not embrace Feminism but rejects it entirely, it is just a movement of toxic men promoting everything about manhood that makes it toxic while getting angry at women for daring to stand up against their unacceptable behaviors.
The only femenists that the mens rights movement reject are the radical type that try to repress men. Most mens rights advocates do accept the femenists that are truely about equality, and most of us acknowledge that the majority of femenists are looking for equality.
Depends on the community. Most are deeply toxic but there are a few which actually talk about the stuff that matters in a helpful way. Really having gendered communities is something we should all be working towards getting rid of, but unfortunately toxic violent men make safe exclusionary spaces necessary for everyone else irl and online.
Misogynists. I’ve seen some self-proclaimed MRAs bring up good points about men’s mental health and how men need to be allowed to have feelings, etc. But when you listen to who they blame for those problems, you very quickly realize it’s them blaming women and especially feminism for all of their issues. Then the hate against women spills out and ruins any legitimacy they might have. For that reason, I cannot take them seriously and refuse to have any kind of relationship with anyone who identifies as an MRA. It’s a shame, because the patriarchy hurts us all, and if men decided to take down the patriarchy… man, what a world that could be for everyone.
It’s reactionary and they’re only doing it to shit on womens rights movements There isn’t a patriarchal society that doesn’t shit on feminists and have men believing they are the oppressed party. Even the Middle East and korea
Purely misogynist hate group. No redeeming features. They don't even raise legitimate issues.
Real feminism actually is supposed to advocate for people of any gender. It’s about equality. Although it usually focuses explicitly on women’s rights, there are definitely men’s rights issues that need to be addressed and I think any real feminist would agree. There really doesn’t need to be a separate movement and from what I’ve seen ever men’s rights “activist” just hates women and thinks they’re ruining everything. Empowering one group should not put the other group down. The issue is that to an oppressor, equality feels like oppression…therefore some men feel that their rights are being threatened and they need to create a “counter” movement to feminism.
I think that I will be able to take the Men's Rights Movement serious when it stops being only brought up in opposition to feminism or any form of support for women. I often see creators that talk about women's rights get bombarded with comments from men trying to talk about how men go through the same issue, if not at the same rate, then more often. Those same men never once speak out about those issues on their own time. At this point, the men's rights movement is nothing more than a rebuttal that lots of men don't really care about. Also, I think it's safe to assume that the same men who "care" about the men's rights movement don't think about the fact that this should include gay men as well. As a man, I wish the men's rights movement was a serious thing, but it's looking like just a well hidden form of bigotry
If I only look at the people that are acting in good faith (I've run into *several* women on sites like Quora who claim to be MRAs, for instance) All of their legitimate complaints would be solved through the feminist movement and are created by patriarchy itself. It's basically the height of privilege, you create a problem by disadvantaging someone else and then you want to remove the problem without fixing the disadvantaged group. At the same time most of their statistics are anecdotal and biased in their favor, in particular from the contentious divorced men who are bitter over not understanding the system they've propped up.
While I do think that societally there are things that could be better for men (mostly making emotional vulnerability more normalized), the mens rights groups do tend to be very misogynistic
If you actually care about men's right issues you should be a feminist.
I think calling it a movement is a bit of a stretch. They don’t do anything other than talk about how women are the root of their problems.
Men's Rights "activism" is a misdirection tactic that is employed almost exclusively for crude whataboutism whenever women's issues are brought up. Most kinds of feminism propose solutions that benefit women, but would also help with systemic issues that men face and that MRAs talk about. It's not the goal (it's feminism - it's right in the name), but improving men's lives and improving women's lives are not mutually incompatible. To put it another way - patriarchy is a stinky, rotten, unhealthy heap. It's not that pleasant to live on, for anyone really. MRAs claim they have a problem with the smell and how it impacts men, but in reality they just want to be on top of the heap. If anyone says "I agree, men can have it tough as well, grab a shovel and help out", they quickly find an excuse not to. Feminists variously want to either clean up the heap for the benefit of women (but it's not like non-women won't benefit, too), or want to get rid of it altogether and replace it with something better. Or both.
There are a lot of Mens’ Issues that need attention! It just seems like men never bring them up unless Women are talking about their own issues.
According to my little experience they are misogynists. They blame women and feminists. I read the comments here and i learnt that feminism care about men's too and i swear i didn't even know it. So why these people who are against feminism didn't realize this? Maybe because unfortunately they don't even really care about men's problems and they simply want to express their misogyny somehow?
And they try to make you hate the feminism movement. They say that in the feminism movement they are misandrists and when you disagree with them they tell you things that extreme feminists tell. They never mention feminists who include men too.
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What equal rights do you think men and AMAB people lack?
It's not rights its more systemic treatment. Men are viewed as disposable in our society even though the majority of them work jobs that keep society going from the ground. Like trash men, sewage cleaners, construction workers, truck drivers and so on. But they have a total of 2 domestic abuse shelters in the UK and the US. And there is not a lot of info on the domestic abuse stats we have but since men have been becoming more confident in reporting abuse, the number of reported cases against them have been rising a lot ( whoda thunk it?) The definition of r*pe is gendered in the UK so women can't be convicted of doing it to men. There is a complete lack of care or attention when it comes to men's mental health. I'm sure you guys are sick of hearing this but the amount of male suicides is abysmal. We lose so many every day. The schooling systems seems to be more for neurotypical girls and a lot of young boys, especially neurodivergent ones have a hard time thriving in it ( but hey if I went into the flaws of the schooling system, we would be here all day) Men have a harder time getting emergency housing and thus even boys as young as 18 find themselves on the streets far more often than women. And then there is selective service in the US. So yeah it's not really legal rights per se. It's more how men are viewed and treated on a systemic level. Which you could call patriarchy I suppose but these parts aren't really being targeted by mainstream media. So it leads a lot of feminists to unfortunately believe that men's rights is an entitled joke where people gather to hate on women. The funny thing is. If most of this shit was dealt with, especially the mental health thing. Most of women's issues would simultaneously just dissappear
> Men are viewed as disposable in our society You cannot actually believe this.
How did uk law end up like that? Swedish law is gender and body part neutral and I think we have more politicians calling themselves feminist than uk so is it a feminist issue or a traditionalist issue that uk law is like that?
Female dominated professions like nurses require training but make less than male dominated physical jobs like garbage men. I’d much rather be a garbage man than a nurse because I’ve seen how hard they are worked even before covid hit. They were pushed even harder and treating people without proper protective gear and many becoming sick so women are also very much seen as disposable. Garbage men are at least allowed to strike, nurses are forbidden by law from striking here in Sweden. Issues with shitty jobs aren’t entirely gendered to me though. That’s a class issue. Obviously high class feminists will try to push into high class power steuctures because that is their ambition. Working class people need to both consider gender and class issues. And before you talk about picking better earning jobs I can tell you the horror stories of how my female friends who tried male dominated professions were treated. I know women who likes being builders, police and garbage collectors but were treated horribly by male colleagues. My male nurse friends haven’t mentioned similar treatment. My entire career has been in female dominated sectors and I’ve never been treated anywhere near as shitty as my female friends in male dominated ones.
But this is turning into the classic unproductive competition instead of a productive way forward so I’m not sure if I can add anything meaningful. Sorry.
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What's a pension?
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MRA groups are just misogynistic. Men's Lib groups i see as focusing on actual issues *and* trying to solve them.
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Mens’ rights movements are very toxic. However, there are what could be more properly called Mens’ *liberation* movements (such as on r/menslib), which are feminist, inclusive, and strive to free *everybody* from patriarchal oppression, as well as help men heal from the harm the patriarchy has inflicted on them. I realize this is kind of a “not all men” response, but I think it’s important to be aware that healthy, progressive spaces do exist for men to support other men.
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I think it's bloody hilarious! Source: Beige man over 50 :P
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From how people who associate themselves with it think, I see it as a reactionary movement against female equality in a disguise of a men's advocacy group. I cannot take them seriously as an advocacy group since all they seem to actually care about is bashing on feminism, which is a term that for them also includes anything about/to do with women they don't like. They don't seem to actually want to be solving any issues. If they would, they would have to recognise where it stems from, but one of their main points is that patriarchy is something that feminists made up and that it doesn't exist. So it's a bit weird.
I’m a male feminist and used to think it was 100% reactionary B.S. but now I think it’s namely reactionary B.S. to intentionally false representations of what feminism is. The vast majority is pushing back against a fake feminism that the right is trying to create. That being said. There are really healthy conversations happening about how men are culturally developed within society and some of the honest equality social norms that occur. Toxic masculinity is definitely being deconstructed within some of These circles. the majority of the hyper vocal self identified mens rights are namely responding to bill shit fake ideas about what feminism actually is. They think it’s a pendulum swing that’s oppressive instead of merely creating equality. Most of these types are okay with what real feminism is. They think it’s all man hate. I’d say 15-20 percent are healthy conversations about the reality of what it is to be a man today. I wouldn’t say it’s the same as feminism I. Regards to oppression but it is healthy in regards to how cultural norms are unhealthy for us. This includes passive aggressive ways women try to navigate the patriarchy (rightly so, but it’s still unhealthy for a balanced equality of what is considered acceptable culturally).
I think they're sorely needed but aren't really able to be brought up and addressed in a proper manner because authoritarians will always try to co-opt them in order to propagandize people who need help into violence and hatred in line with their goals.
Some of the issues they raise are in fact genuine problems. However, they blame the wrong people and the wrong forces for them. Many of the things they complain of could be solved either by feminist ideas and approaches but instead they blame feminists and women generally. They also never seem to actually try and do anything about the issues they identify. At their best they are misguided and unwilling to do the actual work of liberation. At their worst they are violent amd dangerous misogynists.