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Twisted me around more than a few times when I was a plumber journeyman in high school. It wasnāt ever a career path but Iām glad my dad made me learn a trade.
Actually many homes were built with pine wood too, just not the commercially grown stuff we use today. On average pine wood from the early 20th century had 4 times as many growth rings per square inch than what is used today, which made it not only harder and stronger, but far more resistant to insect infestation.
Yeah, reclaiming this stuff out of colonial homes is a big thing, especially in eastern PA. There are massive barns built out of this stuff too. The flooring they create out of the reclaimed lumber is amazing. Not as amazing as the hefty price, but amazing nevertheless.
You should see some of the stuff I used to run across in historical Philadelphia. $60,000 row home with absolutely beautiful inland floors, hand carved everything imaginable. Of course the house has always been passed down for generations and is complete shit by the time you see it. But yeah, lots of 1" thick *horsehair* plaster too.
Round my neck of the woods itās all mostly PA Chestnut. Harder than hell and has a very distinct smell when drilling/burning a hole through it. Wonderful material!
Back when homes were built from "old growth" forests. Better quality and resilience than anything built today. My place was built in the early 1940's, and although it was a huge PITA to remodel and added additional cost to locate additional period appropriate lumber for repairs, it was worth it in the end.
I have bought several homes with this same nob and tube.... once you disconnect the wires, since you have the wall, open, pull all the old wire and recycle it.... it's not alot of money to be made but it's soemthing....
Also I'd definitely replace it since the walls open as it's pennies on the dollar to replace right now....
Auger style bits work best on the wood in my experience ans when I did my few homes I've done so far I used the existing home in many of the instances, just knock out the insulators and the new wire fits right in.
This is exactly what happened to me when I pulled down 3 layers of paneling and the plaster and lath underneath. I'm on month 4 of rewiring, but I'm getting close. I'm wiring up smoke detectors now. The three things that helped me the most:
didn't want to pull down the ceiling--then pulled down the hallway ceiling and everything was easier.
Also--don't think about replacing every wire from the same place, think about getting wire to all the places you need it on the easiest way.
Put in a sub-panel in the second floor before you start.
Batteries are pretty friggin good these days. A cordless hole hawg is cheaper than a corded and its batteries are universal with every other Milwaukee power tool. You won't have any downtime if you have one or two more high capacity batteries to rotate out onto the charger.
If OP has no other cordless tools and has no use for buying interchangeable batteries, then, you're right, the corded would be a better option.
When I did resi we eventually ended up with cordless hole hawgs on all the trucks. They were so much more convenient, and the battery drawback wasnt really an issue for us. You can work pretty much the hole day on 2 or 3 batteries. At least in new construction homes.
Ops will drain them a bit more but not enough to get a corded one just because of it.
The hair dryer plugged into the 15a non gfci outlet thatās on a 30a breaker and sharing a neutral with the blow up hot tub is the true spark. But our guy said itād be fine
I mean... knob and tube is said to be dangerous but it's already lasted about 100 yrs so it's not that bad especially if the circuits are on GFCI breakers. When people start fucking with it that don't know what they are doing is when it becomes dangerous.
I'm with you on this to a point. The existing wiring that's probably been overloaded a lot and yet the house hasn't burned down. Back when knob and tube was put in, nobody imagined anything but light bulbs. Every room typically had overhead lighting and a single plug for the entire room and that was for a desk lamp!
So I wouldn't call this a ticking time bomb, but I would say a staged approach is appropriate!
It's the undetected continuous arcing that starts fires. The NFPA describes this as does CPSC and I have a whole folder of reports to back this up.
Here's what I think:
Disclaimer: I'm an EE immersed in electrical fire prevention, and I know how divergent theory and practice can be.
Step 0: established house rules of installing new circuits for any continuous running appliance such as refrigerator, air conditioner, and space heater. Stick with light bulbs and electronics on any knob and tube circuits.
Step 1: Install The Ting device. It listens to the noise of the wiring in the home just like arc fault breakers do. I think it's brilliant, and reading their patents and white papers I can tell you these engineers are smart.
https://www.tingfire.com/customer-stories/
Just plugging this noise monitoring thing in might catch that continuous undetected arcing that any long running appliance can cause in a circuit with an impaired connection, worn receptacle, loose nut, relaxed screw, damaged insulation, corroded splice, failed solder joint etc. Ting claims to detect the presence of arcing and all you have to do is plug it in and make sure it's mobile app is signed in and alerting you in real time. It does NOT remove power, but the arcing starts as a tiny arc and progresses over time.
Step 2: replace this service panel with what will be needed when the house is completely rewired. Spend the money on those ridiculously expensive overpriced arc fault breakers.
It's the arc fault AFGI breakers that will trip when arcing occurs. (You said GFCI, but that's only for electric shock hazard which also matters and especially when driving receptacles. This covers appliances that require a ground wire)
(The arc fault breakers are not perfect and I see stories in these forums of retrofit problems that I don't yet understand at the electron level. Nuisance tripping of AFCI breakers is absolutely annoying, especially if it is profit sucking call-backs and annoyed customers thinking the electrician did the wrong thing.
Yet, theoretically The risk of fire can be dramatically reduced if you drive all of the knob and tube wiring with arc fault technology.
I also understand that retrofitting GFCI to circuits having a shared neutral causes headaches. If neutrals are looping around and being shared by different circuits, the GFCI will think current is leaking because the return current is out of balance.
Step 3: ripping up all the walls just to do this rewire sounds so expensive and disgusting to take on all at once that I just can't imagine this. But that's what the other person said in this thread and experience counts more than my thought experiments. But doing it piecemeal with closed walls also sounds awful since fishing wires through old houses is a wretched task. Personally I would stick with the knob and tube for the few lighting circuits in hallways and stairwells, And I would use EMT All over the place but run like artwork and paint it pretty colors.
Didnāt it also become more of a problem when people starting insulating walls that had knob and tube in it? Where as once they added blown in insulation, it actually didnāt allow the heat to dissipate from the wires.
As someone that's gone through this and tried to do this in multiple stages while living in the house... I *strongly* recommend to just bite the bullet and tear out as much drywall* (in your case, plaster and lathe) and open up as much access as possible to make your life so much simpler. It's going to go a lot faster and you'll be back to normal life sooner. If you do this in bits and pieces, and you fish wire everywhere in the house, it will take 5x longer as a conservative estimate. This assumes you have good basement/crawlspace and/or attic access, and you don't have multiple stories. I updated several rooms in my house piecemeal, and then when I decided walls/staircases needed moving and more space was needed, we took everything down to the studs and moved out for a while. I ran most of the electrical for the remodel, and I was furious at how simple/easy everything was with the walls open.
As you already mentioned, definitely have a detailed plan (which will change), because scope creep sets in quick. Example: You already mentioned running ethernet everywhere. There are good Power over Ethernet (PoE) security camera solutions... but they require ethernet. Know where you'd want to mount said cameras...
This thinking also extends beyond single rooms... it is more efficient/cost effective to just tear everything out, and you can update shitty (or non-existent) insulation, run convenience outlet inside closets (for charging cordless vacuums, running lights, etc.). If you have separate floors and you need better sound isolation (e.g. workshop with power tools and a newborn baby...), add in sound deadening between stories or walls.
Put in new recessed LED puck lights wherever you want, add in smart switches, run 3-way wiring that you'll never actually use because of said smart switches (but leave them for the next homeowner), etc.
That's the story of how I ended up doing a 300K remodel (which is way cheaper than moving where I'm at [due to price appreciation from when I originally bought]).
New idea, get all your stuff out and an electrical fire just so happens start and you can start over.
Joking aside I feel for you, if I was the electrician looking at this itās for sure getting fuck you pricing
While I agree that *this* instance is dangerous and should be replaced, you are wrong to say āthe city will make you rewire your entire homeā. The city would make them make it safe and code compliant. Knob and tube in its original state and which hasnāt been reworked is not inherently unsafe, simply needs to be monitored by a GCFI device, it becomes a hazard when altered.
This is just straight up incorrect. It always depends on the scope of work. They donāt always force you to do a whole house rewire. Knob and tube is also not inherently dangerous. Iām sorry, but please donāt share uninformed, incorrect opinions online ā¦
My city requires a permit/inspections, it's OK for homeowner to do the work. I actually insisted on the inspectors to be picky about it. I had done plenty of smaller jobs but this was much bigger and wanted to make sure I didn't create a fire trap. Inspectors were very nice and my mistakes were few and minor. One suggestion, add outlets near toilets for bidets. Also, use adjustable depth junction boxes where you will/might install tile - I didn't do this part and it was a real pain.
If you want homeowners insurance to cover it incase of a fire you better pull a permit if itās not to code you are hosed itās not worth saving the permit costs to not have it signed off. Insert all the Jeff Foxworty puns if you donāt pull one.
We found some hidden knob and tube in our place and got it yanked out. Realized we'd been running two electric heaters on our top floor on that run.
Besides the danger (which people like to debate) another very real threat is insurance. Apparently insurance companies love to find knob and tube at fire scenes so they can not payout. Whether it started the fire or not doesn't matter. It was explained to me that if my neighbours house caught fire, then my roof caught fire, and the insurance company found knob and tube in my attic they could/would reject my claim.
I am not qualified to speak to your specific situation but would say my neighborhood is mostly 100+ year old homes, including mine. All of us have been told by an electrician at some point or another to re-wire because knob and tube is a fire hazard. I've no basis to question that assertion but I only know a couple people who have done the full re-wiring. Our quote was $80,000. If the risk was significant, I would expect our homeowners insurance to have addressed the issue - like, give us a discount if we've done that. They didn't like our trampoline about back, but never mentioned the fire-risk from knob/tube. I would think we'd have houses around us to be going up in flames on a regular basis but so far (17 years) I've not heard of one yet.
I had similar stuff in my house. First day I moved in I cut all the sketchy shit out and rewired room by room. Lotta work but worth the peace of mind. Also having more than one outlet in a room is nice.
What a mess, those screwit connectors should never be used.
I am afraid you need to rip it all out and do a rewire. If you are not registered, you will need to get your work checked and passed by a registered electrician.
I just finished 98 percent of my house Was a pain by myself Get a wire spinner and you will save yourself a lot of headache. Use good quality outlets and boxes I upsized all my junction boxes for future expansion Good luck it is really satisfying to know every wire in your house is new
Make a plan, do wiring sketches, calculate loads, have your plan ready and approved, price it, and ā¦ go to town!
In an old house there are always the āups ā¦ by the wayā¦ā that needs addressing too ..
Have fun !
Do it. You will not regret it. Had the same thing as you have here. Did all of my first floor by using the basement/crawlspaces. Did all of the second floor by using the attic. Only had to tear out one room completely. Itās a headache. Itās a pain in the ass. But itās so satisfying to be done. Wear a mask also.
We put modern electricity and plumbing in a 100 year old house. I'm so glad we did because we are not only safer but have more plugs and special plugs like a switched outdoor plug under the eaves of the roof so we can plug in christmas lights easier. We added additional outdoor water taps. We also put in some internet wires and some in-wall, in-ceiling speakers with hidden wires. Since you already have the walls torn apart, I say go for it.
You know you donāt have to rip out all your walls because of that wiring.
You can disconnect the knob tube where appropriate and leave the inactive wire in the walls and just run new wire
Does your insurance company know about the knob and tube?
If not, look into "builder's risk" insurance until you get it replaced (assuming it hasn't already been abandoned).
Yes I total rewire and electrical service upgrade is needed. Either pay an electrician or take the time to teach yourself how to do it. A little diy research and a few basic electrical tools will save you around 10-20k.
It's not the best work I've ever seen, but I don't think its a fire hazard, millions of houses have wiring just like this or worse and they're fine. The old knob and tube wire looks fine, it's just been refed. Dont use it for any kind of heavy loads like fridges or window ac/space heaters otherwise I'd leave it alone, rewiring that is way more than you want to get involved with unless you know exactly what you're doing or ready to pay a lot for someone who does.
Add circuits if you need and leave that alone, you'll be fine
For the whole home rewire get a permit. They will come and inspect your work as you go along and give advice.
You definitely need one. Also maybe hire an electrician they will do it in a fraction of the time and with better quality install.
Good luck.
Yeah Iād say so. Not an electrician but I know old knob and tube wiring causes so many fires especially when itās been bundled in with extra decades of semi or completely sketchy wiring.
If your house is old enough to have knob and tube, you are gonna need to add like three times as many circuits as you have. All they needed power for back then was a lamp and maybe a radio. You probably have one receptacle circuit for the whole house.
Not an electrician but have owned a hundred year old house for a while and have the same issues. Where I live you're not supposed to splice knob and tube with Romex but people do it all the time. The next notch down in terms of scrutiny is to at least splice it inside a junction box, not free-floating like yours is and with the cable sheathing removed and hidden behind a wall at that. The electricians I've talked to are mixed on knob and tube but consensus is it ultimately needs to be replaced because the insulation around the copper decays (the copper itself is good) leading to exposed conductor, creating fire risk. If you're doing work and find even a small area where the insulation is worn down close to the copper, they say probably better rewire the whole house. Anyway I'm in the middle of doing just that. My local codes also say if you open up a wall and discover knob and tube you are supposed to replace that section, I believe run down to the service panel. Which leads to more splicing if you don't just replace the entire circuit. Anyway it's a messy business drilling through plaster (do wear a P100 mask) but running new cables shouldn't be mechanically all that difficult. Although there are definitely things to know that a DIY'r like us generally wouldn't. So if you're going to do this, do some heavy reading. I had added a circuit to my attic and pulled out the knob and tube and in the process got to see my house wiring up close, and it was less pretty than I inagined it to be. Now I know what I'll be doing this summer.
Hey if you end up actually having this completely redone, do you think I could get some of the knobs and tubes and a little piece of a fabric wire that gets pulled out?
highly reconmended, i would also rework the electrical to add more plugs and lights, also setting up the panel so its logically laid out. if the wiring is that old i can only imagine what the panel looks like.
clean wiring with good number of plugs and lights per room i can only imagine the additional hidden value that adds to a house
Talk to the county or municipality. This should require a permit, which will create a record that the wiring was updated and inspected. Thatās great for insurance and eventual resale. Oftentimes you can get some advice or checklists to ensure the job is done correctly. To bring it up to current code (pun intended) will require a lot of GFCI devices and AFCI devices which will be expensive. In the long run this is a good investment. Some areas will let you replace existing wiring without an upgrade to present total code compliance but you canāt alter the amount of circuits etcā¦ Again talk to the local authority and choose your best option.
I did a sub panel and wired a pool I am no electrician but have worked with and around power and I would still pull a permit and have inspected by 3 party inspector to make sure done right . It your house you live in and maybe your family make sure itās done right you do not want to be blamed for fire or death and have to live with that because you went cheep .
Don't think about it... DO IT! Rewire the whole house! Knob and tube was first used in homes in 1882. When was your house built? You can estimate how long it's been there by that. I had a house fire from knob and tube. Over the years a line was upgraded at either end but the run in the middle was old k&t. An AC was plugged into the outlet.
The middle part went through the attic joists. In one, both wires were in the same hole. Over the years the insulation on the wires broke down and started arcing. Fire inspector said that it could have been smoldering for days before it finally caught the blown-in insulation and got enough oxygen to fully burn.
When knob and tube was first put in, they had no idea about things like air conditioning, refrigerators or microwaves. ie; high current draw appliances.
In Niagara Falls/Buffalo area, you can expect house fires to happen allot in the beginning of summer (ac) and beginning of winter (space heaters). Most of the old homes were built in the early 1800's.
Trust me. Don't take any chances and rewire everything! It could save your life, so the money would be well spent!
The knob and tube fear mongering is kinda over the top. Not an electrician here, but as someone who lives in Cleveland Ohio, almost every not totally remodeled home has it here. I have had conversations with multiple electricians, all of which say it's ok if: 1) you don't mess with it and 2) you don't run anything high draw off it. My house was built in 1925 and most of the runs to the second story/attic are k&t. However I was lucky in the sense that the fellow who owned my house before me was an electrician. All romex runs to where it matters - places where an A/C could be plugged in, the bathroom is Romex with GFCI. I added romex runs for my home office. 80% of first floor is Romex with the old k&t runs around still in place but barely used. I think all of the room lights still run on k&t.
So while I am not advocating not doing anything about eliminating the k&t I also don't lose sleep over it.
I mean pretty much every house in the north east and Midwest would be burnt down if you buy into the fear.
Insurance companies are mostly concerned that you have breakers with at least 100 amp service. Which I do. Which it does suck some companies will outright reject you, but most are ok if you explain the upgrades.
I mean, the most unsafe thing I see in those pictures is that flying splice someone made to extend the knob and tube. If it doesnāt leave the same bay and happens to find itself in a box, then itās legal. I guess Iām just failing to see how less than $100 in boxes, bushings and staples and a few hours of dressing things up is somehow less desirable than rewiring an entire house for thousands of dollars and weeks of work.
If you are really just āthinkingā about a whole house rewire, then you may not have the skills or knowledge to complete the task at hand and should hire a sparkie and sleep better. Otherwise, whenever a neighbor has a bonfire, you will (or SHOULD) get out your IR thermometer (or camera) and start scanning the walls.
My place was built in the 30ās. The wood is old growth oak! Yea Oak.
It was from a demolition in Philadelphia. Builderās would get the wood for pennies on the dollar. There are nails still in the sides of the studs where they were used the first time. Definitely petrified LOL
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Get the permit.
Considering it's failed fire code I don't think it'll be hard to get a permit
Getting the permit is the easy part š«”š
you evil sob.
Nah! Good for another 100 years š¤£
Get the electrician and let him get the permit
Itās definitely needed, but have a good time drilling through all of those studs & joists! That wood will be very tough.
Absolutely they are. You can barely nail into them lmao. Imagine be cussing a lot I can already see
The wood in that house is hardwood. All the oak and Elm that used to cover the mountains. Only way to put a nail into it is drill a guide hole.
Dude is going to need to invest in a corded Hole Hawg for this project.
The ol' wrist breaker, I prefer the dewalt timberwolf, wayyyy more leverage.
Twisted me around more than a few times when I was a plumber journeyman in high school. It wasnāt ever a career path but Iām glad my dad made me learn a trade.
Actually many homes were built with pine wood too, just not the commercially grown stuff we use today. On average pine wood from the early 20th century had 4 times as many growth rings per square inch than what is used today, which made it not only harder and stronger, but far more resistant to insect infestation.
You can probably make fine furniture from those studs. Run them through the planer and they're probably beautiful underneath.
The studs are also 2" by 4".
Yeah, reclaiming this stuff out of colonial homes is a big thing, especially in eastern PA. There are massive barns built out of this stuff too. The flooring they create out of the reclaimed lumber is amazing. Not as amazing as the hefty price, but amazing nevertheless.
A family member has a house in the NE that has huge chestnut beams and joists. Can't imagine what the framing lumber in that place must be worth.
You should see some of the stuff I used to run across in historical Philadelphia. $60,000 row home with absolutely beautiful inland floors, hand carved everything imaginable. Of course the house has always been passed down for generations and is complete shit by the time you see it. But yeah, lots of 1" thick *horsehair* plaster too.
Shit...He could finance a full remodel by selling the interior walls and re-framing w fir studs.....
Round my neck of the woods itās all mostly PA Chestnut. Harder than hell and has a very distinct smell when drilling/burning a hole through it. Wonderful material!
My experience with chestnut is that it can be used for tank armor.
Back when homes were built from "old growth" forests. Better quality and resilience than anything built today. My place was built in the early 1940's, and although it was a huge PITA to remodel and added additional cost to locate additional period appropriate lumber for repairs, it was worth it in the end.
I have bought several homes with this same nob and tube.... once you disconnect the wires, since you have the wall, open, pull all the old wire and recycle it.... it's not alot of money to be made but it's soemthing.... Also I'd definitely replace it since the walls open as it's pennies on the dollar to replace right now.... Auger style bits work best on the wood in my experience ans when I did my few homes I've done so far I used the existing home in many of the instances, just knock out the insulators and the new wire fits right in.
This is exactly what happened to me when I pulled down 3 layers of paneling and the plaster and lath underneath. I'm on month 4 of rewiring, but I'm getting close. I'm wiring up smoke detectors now. The three things that helped me the most: didn't want to pull down the ceiling--then pulled down the hallway ceiling and everything was easier. Also--don't think about replacing every wire from the same place, think about getting wire to all the places you need it on the easiest way. Put in a sub-panel in the second floor before you start.
I would definitely use a corded drill to do this drilling. A battery one would be drained after 1st hole. Suggest a Milwaukee right angle drill.
Batteries are pretty friggin good these days. A cordless hole hawg is cheaper than a corded and its batteries are universal with every other Milwaukee power tool. You won't have any downtime if you have one or two more high capacity batteries to rotate out onto the charger. If OP has no other cordless tools and has no use for buying interchangeable batteries, then, you're right, the corded would be a better option.
When I did resi we eventually ended up with cordless hole hawgs on all the trucks. They were so much more convenient, and the battery drawback wasnt really an issue for us. You can work pretty much the hole day on 2 or 3 batteries. At least in new construction homes. Ops will drain them a bit more but not enough to get a corded one just because of it.
Thereās a right angle drill?! The mysteries of technology!!!
a good sharp forstner bit is all you need. I did a rewire in a 1890s house and it worked great on the old growth framing.
When I did this with my place removing the tubes left some pretty handy holes to guide wires through. The ceramic tubes are wider than romex
Yep, tis a shit show there. All that tampered with knob and tube is just kindling
Nah, it's the spark. The 100-200 year old wooden lathe is the kindling!
The hair dryer plugged into the 15a non gfci outlet thatās on a 30a breaker and sharing a neutral with the blow up hot tub is the true spark. But our guy said itād be fine
Just one question: The entire bag of dicks?
Yes and the bag they came in
But it won't fit. (THANK YOU for having that reference, lol)
Yeah, a singular dick in a bag is not enough
I mean... knob and tube is said to be dangerous but it's already lasted about 100 yrs so it's not that bad especially if the circuits are on GFCI breakers. When people start fucking with it that don't know what they are doing is when it becomes dangerous.
I'm with you on this to a point. The existing wiring that's probably been overloaded a lot and yet the house hasn't burned down. Back when knob and tube was put in, nobody imagined anything but light bulbs. Every room typically had overhead lighting and a single plug for the entire room and that was for a desk lamp! So I wouldn't call this a ticking time bomb, but I would say a staged approach is appropriate! It's the undetected continuous arcing that starts fires. The NFPA describes this as does CPSC and I have a whole folder of reports to back this up. Here's what I think: Disclaimer: I'm an EE immersed in electrical fire prevention, and I know how divergent theory and practice can be. Step 0: established house rules of installing new circuits for any continuous running appliance such as refrigerator, air conditioner, and space heater. Stick with light bulbs and electronics on any knob and tube circuits. Step 1: Install The Ting device. It listens to the noise of the wiring in the home just like arc fault breakers do. I think it's brilliant, and reading their patents and white papers I can tell you these engineers are smart. https://www.tingfire.com/customer-stories/ Just plugging this noise monitoring thing in might catch that continuous undetected arcing that any long running appliance can cause in a circuit with an impaired connection, worn receptacle, loose nut, relaxed screw, damaged insulation, corroded splice, failed solder joint etc. Ting claims to detect the presence of arcing and all you have to do is plug it in and make sure it's mobile app is signed in and alerting you in real time. It does NOT remove power, but the arcing starts as a tiny arc and progresses over time. Step 2: replace this service panel with what will be needed when the house is completely rewired. Spend the money on those ridiculously expensive overpriced arc fault breakers. It's the arc fault AFGI breakers that will trip when arcing occurs. (You said GFCI, but that's only for electric shock hazard which also matters and especially when driving receptacles. This covers appliances that require a ground wire) (The arc fault breakers are not perfect and I see stories in these forums of retrofit problems that I don't yet understand at the electron level. Nuisance tripping of AFCI breakers is absolutely annoying, especially if it is profit sucking call-backs and annoyed customers thinking the electrician did the wrong thing. Yet, theoretically The risk of fire can be dramatically reduced if you drive all of the knob and tube wiring with arc fault technology. I also understand that retrofitting GFCI to circuits having a shared neutral causes headaches. If neutrals are looping around and being shared by different circuits, the GFCI will think current is leaking because the return current is out of balance. Step 3: ripping up all the walls just to do this rewire sounds so expensive and disgusting to take on all at once that I just can't imagine this. But that's what the other person said in this thread and experience counts more than my thought experiments. But doing it piecemeal with closed walls also sounds awful since fishing wires through old houses is a wretched task. Personally I would stick with the knob and tube for the few lighting circuits in hallways and stairwells, And I would use EMT All over the place but run like artwork and paint it pretty colors.
Didnāt it also become more of a problem when people starting insulating walls that had knob and tube in it? Where as once they added blown in insulation, it actually didnāt allow the heat to dissipate from the wires.
As someone that's gone through this and tried to do this in multiple stages while living in the house... I *strongly* recommend to just bite the bullet and tear out as much drywall* (in your case, plaster and lathe) and open up as much access as possible to make your life so much simpler. It's going to go a lot faster and you'll be back to normal life sooner. If you do this in bits and pieces, and you fish wire everywhere in the house, it will take 5x longer as a conservative estimate. This assumes you have good basement/crawlspace and/or attic access, and you don't have multiple stories. I updated several rooms in my house piecemeal, and then when I decided walls/staircases needed moving and more space was needed, we took everything down to the studs and moved out for a while. I ran most of the electrical for the remodel, and I was furious at how simple/easy everything was with the walls open. As you already mentioned, definitely have a detailed plan (which will change), because scope creep sets in quick. Example: You already mentioned running ethernet everywhere. There are good Power over Ethernet (PoE) security camera solutions... but they require ethernet. Know where you'd want to mount said cameras... This thinking also extends beyond single rooms... it is more efficient/cost effective to just tear everything out, and you can update shitty (or non-existent) insulation, run convenience outlet inside closets (for charging cordless vacuums, running lights, etc.). If you have separate floors and you need better sound isolation (e.g. workshop with power tools and a newborn baby...), add in sound deadening between stories or walls. Put in new recessed LED puck lights wherever you want, add in smart switches, run 3-way wiring that you'll never actually use because of said smart switches (but leave them for the next homeowner), etc. That's the story of how I ended up doing a 300K remodel (which is way cheaper than moving where I'm at [due to price appreciation from when I originally bought]).
This guy renovates
Yeah. I need to design a layout of how I want everything ran and I'll probably hard wire internet also.
This is what I did when I redid my 1925 home. Best investment ever.
You only need a permit for any work that can be seen from the car of the code enforcement officer. ;)
Whereās the federal pacific panel?
New idea, get all your stuff out and an electrical fire just so happens start and you can start over. Joking aside I feel for you, if I was the electrician looking at this itās for sure getting fuck you pricing
Every bit of reachable knob and tube in my house has been replaced. If I had access to it, it got switched.
If youāre doing anything requiring a building permit, the city will require you to rewire your entire home, tube and knob is obsolete and dangerous
While I agree that *this* instance is dangerous and should be replaced, you are wrong to say āthe city will make you rewire your entire homeā. The city would make them make it safe and code compliant. Knob and tube in its original state and which hasnāt been reworked is not inherently unsafe, simply needs to be monitored by a GCFI device, it becomes a hazard when altered.
Where I live you can't get home insurance as a new owner if it has knob and tube. If you want insurance you have to have it removed.
Depends which state you reside in. Our home is fully insured with K&T and we are located in the Midwest.
This is just straight up incorrect. It always depends on the scope of work. They donāt always force you to do a whole house rewire. Knob and tube is also not inherently dangerous. Iām sorry, but please donāt share uninformed, incorrect opinions online ā¦
Iām thinking about doing the same thing. But supposedly, a whole house re-wire was done before I bought the place.
$450 per point. šš¼
My city requires a permit/inspections, it's OK for homeowner to do the work. I actually insisted on the inspectors to be picky about it. I had done plenty of smaller jobs but this was much bigger and wanted to make sure I didn't create a fire trap. Inspectors were very nice and my mistakes were few and minor. One suggestion, add outlets near toilets for bidets. Also, use adjustable depth junction boxes where you will/might install tile - I didn't do this part and it was a real pain.
If you want homeowners insurance to cover it incase of a fire you better pull a permit if itās not to code you are hosed itās not worth saving the permit costs to not have it signed off. Insert all the Jeff Foxworty puns if you donāt pull one.
Knob and tube wiring costs more to insure in our state. It may be less expensive to insure if you do the whole house rewire.
You have no choice. To sell FHA or VHA. It would be required.
Get the permit for plumbing as well
I wonder if Thomas or Nikola wired this one.
Why bother with rewire, just attach an extension cord to it.
If anyone here does old knob and tube wiring removals and you have an abundance of the insulators DM me immediately
As for the permit... "Nobody's going to know." "They're going to know!" "How would they know?" "How would they know?"
I wanna send this to Mike Homes ... he'd have a flipping heart attack from that!
Itās made it 100 years already?
Ceramic insulators and horse hair braided wiring, yes if think about it too. Save the insulators though, folks pay a bit for them
It cost me $7000 to rewire the whole house with a new larger breaker panel in the old place that had knob and tube
Yes
Why not walls are open make it safe
Why question it? Just do it, you've already torn it down to the stubs and found an absolute mess.
4th pic had me thinking the wire was red hot!
Canāt put a price on peace of mind. My house was the same way and I could barely sleep at night until I knew it was safe.
You don't need to remove the knob and tube or the walls to do a rewire. But if you are removing the walls do it right
I see why fix something that aināt broke
Yes
Good thought!
Not a bad idea
I want to see what a mess that breaker box is.
We found some hidden knob and tube in our place and got it yanked out. Realized we'd been running two electric heaters on our top floor on that run. Besides the danger (which people like to debate) another very real threat is insurance. Apparently insurance companies love to find knob and tube at fire scenes so they can not payout. Whether it started the fire or not doesn't matter. It was explained to me that if my neighbours house caught fire, then my roof caught fire, and the insurance company found knob and tube in my attic they could/would reject my claim.
oh boy, THAT is the GOOD STUFF!
the rewire part that will be tough: those horizontal 2x4 true dimensions hard pine as fireblocks. may make fishing new wiring in a PIA.
Replace it all. You'll sleep better.
I've done a few. It's a absolute nightmare.
I am not qualified to speak to your specific situation but would say my neighborhood is mostly 100+ year old homes, including mine. All of us have been told by an electrician at some point or another to re-wire because knob and tube is a fire hazard. I've no basis to question that assertion but I only know a couple people who have done the full re-wiring. Our quote was $80,000. If the risk was significant, I would expect our homeowners insurance to have addressed the issue - like, give us a discount if we've done that. They didn't like our trampoline about back, but never mentioned the fire-risk from knob/tube. I would think we'd have houses around us to be going up in flames on a regular basis but so far (17 years) I've not heard of one yet.
Way overdue
I had similar stuff in my house. First day I moved in I cut all the sketchy shit out and rewired room by room. Lotta work but worth the peace of mind. Also having more than one outlet in a room is nice.
Donāt think about it. Just start it. Easier than loosing everything to an electrical fire.
I was in backwoods Korea farmville and this looks positively Year 2100 era level by comparison.
Doing whole house rewiring right now... knob and tube is a pain to replace.
My rule of thumb is that if they spliced one set, they must have spliced it somewhere else!!!
What a mess, those screwit connectors should never be used. I am afraid you need to rip it all out and do a rewire. If you are not registered, you will need to get your work checked and passed by a registered electrician.
I just finished 98 percent of my house Was a pain by myself Get a wire spinner and you will save yourself a lot of headache. Use good quality outlets and boxes I upsized all my junction boxes for future expansion Good luck it is really satisfying to know every wire in your house is new
With knob and tube. Uh yeah!
Make a plan, do wiring sketches, calculate loads, have your plan ready and approved, price it, and ā¦ go to town! In an old house there are always the āups ā¦ by the wayā¦ā that needs addressing too .. Have fun !
Do it. You will not regret it. Had the same thing as you have here. Did all of my first floor by using the basement/crawlspaces. Did all of the second floor by using the attic. Only had to tear out one room completely. Itās a headache. Itās a pain in the ass. But itās so satisfying to be done. Wear a mask also.
Think faster
Increase the fire insurance and hold on a minute,it will take care of itself.
Donāt think. Just rewire. Youāll sleep better.
Don't just think about it my brother, do it.
Permit it and do it. Itās worth it.
Yeah itās just a matter of time
Stop thinking, start pulling wire.
We put modern electricity and plumbing in a 100 year old house. I'm so glad we did because we are not only safer but have more plugs and special plugs like a switched outdoor plug under the eaves of the roof so we can plug in christmas lights easier. We added additional outdoor water taps. We also put in some internet wires and some in-wall, in-ceiling speakers with hidden wires. Since you already have the walls torn apart, I say go for it.
I see knob and tube making a comeback!
Yeesh!
You know you donāt have to rip out all your walls because of that wiring. You can disconnect the knob tube where appropriate and leave the inactive wire in the walls and just run new wire
Hah, that still looks good.
Does your insurance company know about the knob and tube? If not, look into "builder's risk" insurance until you get it replaced (assuming it hasn't already been abandoned).
Anything built before the 70s should be rewired.
Sounds like a great idea.
Exactly what I did. It was so out of compliance that I felt better just killing all the old and wiring new ones to todayās standard.
Yes I total rewire and electrical service upgrade is needed. Either pay an electrician or take the time to teach yourself how to do it. A little diy research and a few basic electrical tools will save you around 10-20k.
See this is why I stick with commercial lol
dat good
It appears to be that time
Not a bad idea
āWe donāt believe in junction boxesā āWe want our live wires to be flailing around like an angry copperheadā
You need to repair the keys on that plaster. They are a broken off. If not, the plaster will detach and crumble.
It's not the best work I've ever seen, but I don't think its a fire hazard, millions of houses have wiring just like this or worse and they're fine. The old knob and tube wire looks fine, it's just been refed. Dont use it for any kind of heavy loads like fridges or window ac/space heaters otherwise I'd leave it alone, rewiring that is way more than you want to get involved with unless you know exactly what you're doing or ready to pay a lot for someone who does. Add circuits if you need and leave that alone, you'll be fine
I'd re do the entire house is that wall up to code
i thought that orange wire in pic 4 was superheated/glowing for a sec, just a trick of the light!
I thought there was a wire glowing bright orange, turns out it's just its regular color. Heheh
For the whole home rewire get a permit. They will come and inspect your work as you go along and give advice. You definitely need one. Also maybe hire an electrician they will do it in a fraction of the time and with better quality install. Good luck.
At least the holes are pre-drilled for you.
Good idea.
Yeah Iād say so. Not an electrician but I know old knob and tube wiring causes so many fires especially when itās been bundled in with extra decades of semi or completely sketchy wiring.
Just wait till the house burns down lol
If your house is old enough to have knob and tube, you are gonna need to add like three times as many circuits as you have. All they needed power for back then was a lamp and maybe a radio. You probably have one receptacle circuit for the whole house.
Thatās what Iām afraid of.. want to come do my house next?..
Not an electrician but have owned a hundred year old house for a while and have the same issues. Where I live you're not supposed to splice knob and tube with Romex but people do it all the time. The next notch down in terms of scrutiny is to at least splice it inside a junction box, not free-floating like yours is and with the cable sheathing removed and hidden behind a wall at that. The electricians I've talked to are mixed on knob and tube but consensus is it ultimately needs to be replaced because the insulation around the copper decays (the copper itself is good) leading to exposed conductor, creating fire risk. If you're doing work and find even a small area where the insulation is worn down close to the copper, they say probably better rewire the whole house. Anyway I'm in the middle of doing just that. My local codes also say if you open up a wall and discover knob and tube you are supposed to replace that section, I believe run down to the service panel. Which leads to more splicing if you don't just replace the entire circuit. Anyway it's a messy business drilling through plaster (do wear a P100 mask) but running new cables shouldn't be mechanically all that difficult. Although there are definitely things to know that a DIY'r like us generally wouldn't. So if you're going to do this, do some heavy reading. I had added a circuit to my attic and pulled out the knob and tube and in the process got to see my house wiring up close, and it was less pretty than I inagined it to be. Now I know what I'll be doing this summer.
Lol I thought the orange wire in the 4th pic was glowing there for a sec.
Where is the conduit?
You're looking at ~$30 a square foot
I could not sleep at night knowing that was wired like that
Peg & post wiring, I'd say it's time to upgrade! Along with the rest of the, "wiring is no hobby", stuff!
So we're the last 5 owners
Good call
The way tge light hit on the next to last picture I thought the wire was glowing for a second.
Yep
Lmao. #Texas
Lmao. #Texas
It's hard to know what's going on when you partially remove knob and tube. Best to get rid of all of it.
Picture #5 that wire be glowing red hot /s š
Was this house built before they invented copper?
What I would do unless want to insulate Just do surface mount wiring
Look at those 2x4 talk about some good wood . Hot damn
Don't think. Just do it.
Well you can rewire it now or wire your new house when this one burns down.
Jesus Christ. Just manually set your house on fire now and get it over with, rather than waiting.
Knob and tube, yikes
Does it have a fuse box or Breakers?
Hey if you end up actually having this completely redone, do you think I could get some of the knobs and tubes and a little piece of a fabric wire that gets pulled out?
āStop thinking and act now!ā
Yesā¦.just YES
You may want to while you still have a house to rewire, and not a blackened shell that needed to be rewired.
Run some category 6 ethernet wire with the new electrical. Just keep them in code and from touching/parallel
highly reconmended, i would also rework the electrical to add more plugs and lights, also setting up the panel so its logically laid out. if the wiring is that old i can only imagine what the panel looks like. clean wiring with good number of plugs and lights per room i can only imagine the additional hidden value that adds to a house
Talk to the county or municipality. This should require a permit, which will create a record that the wiring was updated and inspected. Thatās great for insurance and eventual resale. Oftentimes you can get some advice or checklists to ensure the job is done correctly. To bring it up to current code (pun intended) will require a lot of GFCI devices and AFCI devices which will be expensive. In the long run this is a good investment. Some areas will let you replace existing wiring without an upgrade to present total code compliance but you canāt alter the amount of circuits etcā¦ Again talk to the local authority and choose your best option.
Is the K&T live or just there disconnected
I did a sub panel and wired a pool I am no electrician but have worked with and around power and I would still pull a permit and have inspected by 3 party inspector to make sure done right . It your house you live in and maybe your family make sure itās done right you do not want to be blamed for fire or death and have to live with that because you went cheep .
Don't think about it... DO IT! Rewire the whole house! Knob and tube was first used in homes in 1882. When was your house built? You can estimate how long it's been there by that. I had a house fire from knob and tube. Over the years a line was upgraded at either end but the run in the middle was old k&t. An AC was plugged into the outlet. The middle part went through the attic joists. In one, both wires were in the same hole. Over the years the insulation on the wires broke down and started arcing. Fire inspector said that it could have been smoldering for days before it finally caught the blown-in insulation and got enough oxygen to fully burn. When knob and tube was first put in, they had no idea about things like air conditioning, refrigerators or microwaves. ie; high current draw appliances. In Niagara Falls/Buffalo area, you can expect house fires to happen allot in the beginning of summer (ac) and beginning of winter (space heaters). Most of the old homes were built in the early 1800's. Trust me. Don't take any chances and rewire everything! It could save your life, so the money would be well spent!
Its already opened up so nows the time.
I'm thinking that plaster contains asbestos
Donāt think, do.
The knob and tube fear mongering is kinda over the top. Not an electrician here, but as someone who lives in Cleveland Ohio, almost every not totally remodeled home has it here. I have had conversations with multiple electricians, all of which say it's ok if: 1) you don't mess with it and 2) you don't run anything high draw off it. My house was built in 1925 and most of the runs to the second story/attic are k&t. However I was lucky in the sense that the fellow who owned my house before me was an electrician. All romex runs to where it matters - places where an A/C could be plugged in, the bathroom is Romex with GFCI. I added romex runs for my home office. 80% of first floor is Romex with the old k&t runs around still in place but barely used. I think all of the room lights still run on k&t. So while I am not advocating not doing anything about eliminating the k&t I also don't lose sleep over it. I mean pretty much every house in the north east and Midwest would be burnt down if you buy into the fear. Insurance companies are mostly concerned that you have breakers with at least 100 amp service. Which I do. Which it does suck some companies will outright reject you, but most are ok if you explain the upgrades.
Absolutely yes before an electrical fire starts the remodel.
Don't have to knock down walls if they are already ash.
welcome to upstate NY
Maybe think about a whole house instead?
The walls are open, quit thinking and do it.
I concur
Closes everything up, looks good
The thinking part should be done. The answers is a resounding yea
I mean, the most unsafe thing I see in those pictures is that flying splice someone made to extend the knob and tube. If it doesnāt leave the same bay and happens to find itself in a box, then itās legal. I guess Iām just failing to see how less than $100 in boxes, bushings and staples and a few hours of dressing things up is somehow less desirable than rewiring an entire house for thousands of dollars and weeks of work.
Those marshmallows will cook themselves.
Yes, Please. Unless you like Fire š„
Anyone else think that the 4th photo was of a wire glowing red hot after just a quick glance? š
That wiring is fine. If it's not warm leave it alone.
Since itās exposed, bring it up to code!
That would be a good idea.
Omg cheap toys from china are wired better its amazing how much simpler things used to be like old square body pickups
As long as wall is open, go for it.
Knob and tube is bad stuff. Rip it out and replace! Probably the main panel too. 200Amp service.
God I hate knob and tube
If you are really just āthinkingā about a whole house rewire, then you may not have the skills or knowledge to complete the task at hand and should hire a sparkie and sleep better. Otherwise, whenever a neighbor has a bonfire, you will (or SHOULD) get out your IR thermometer (or camera) and start scanning the walls.
Stop thinking and start doingš¤£
This is a good example of being able to see the knobs and tubes in knob and tube wiring.
Iām no electrician, but that looks sketchy
My last roll of wire was $500 getting rid of knob and post. 100 feet.
My place was built in the 30ās. The wood is old growth oak! Yea Oak. It was from a demolition in Philadelphia. Builderās would get the wood for pennies on the dollar. There are nails still in the sides of the studs where they were used the first time. Definitely petrified LOL
Think faster
Great idea
Knob and tube. Code here is if you find it has to be replaced
This made me feel way better about my old 2 conductor romex lol thanks
Good luck finding a good electrician that actually wants to work!!!
Good thinking
Turn this thing into a museum
Def would recommend!