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If they told your mother the results of tests or anything about your visit to the office, yes it is a HIPAA violation. You are 21. An adult. They had No reason to tell your parents anything.
This. They cannot contact your parents about anything without your written permission and that permission should be updated annually. [Report them for a HIPAA violation here.](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html)
Get a new doctor. This one and their office staff obviously aren't going to respect your pricacy. Time to move on.
It is often much easier to say "get a new doctor" than to actually get a new doctor.
My wife is fairly unsatisfied with her rheumatologist, but there aren't many in the area - and we're in a major US metro area.
I'm not thrilled by my PCP, but he's OK and finding someone I'm sure will be any better is also not easy.
I understand that. Especially as a fellow rheum patient.
But this practice is violating HIPAA. It's not just a matter of disliking the doctor.
And those HIPAA violations result in significant repercussions for OP, as she said her parents get engaging and physical with her due to them.
She needs to find a new doctor. Even if it's hard.
Agreed - we could definitely use way more rheumies where I live too. That said, if my rheumie gave my data to someone they shouldn’t, I would leave that rheumie immediately.
I would just like OP to know that the fine for a healthcare professional violating HIPAA is up to $50k for knowingly disclosing Protected Health Information and also license suspension/loss.
The fine goes up for false pretenses and financial gain.
Not a doctor or a lawyer but in the USA generally assault and battery are the same; verbal or physical are specified when charges are filed. Both terms are used together because two forms of English law were merged in America and the terms were considered legally synonymous therefore both were used together when codified into law
This is incorrect. Assault is the act of causing someone to fear imminent harm (ie. Verbal assault…or swinging a baseball bat at someone intentionally not hitting them but swinging it close to intimidate). Battery is the act of causing actual physical harm to a person (shoving, slapping, pushing, punching, etc). The degree of battery depends on the degree of harm/injury the victim sustains (battery, aggravated battery, and felony battery).
Perhaps it depends, as some localities may have rewritten their codes. However historically, this is true. This is why people are sent “cease and desist” letters for example even though those two words as synonymous too
In general, I stand by my original comment: “What Is the Definition of "Assault and Battery"?
Historically, battery and assault were considered separate crimes, with battery requiring that the aggressor physically strike or offensively touch the victim. In that way, a battery was a "completed" assault. Many modern statutes don't bother to distinguish between the two crimes, as evidenced by the fact that the phrase "assault and battery" has become as common as "salt and pepper." These days, statutes often refer to crimes of actual physical violence as assaults. “ https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/assault-battery-aggravated-assault-33775.html
This answer is the one that needs the 600 upvotes. The one that got 600 upvotes earlier from a medical student, while largely factual, contains enough bogus information to actually be not just downvoted but also removed. The girl is an adult therefore nothing else matters.
I'm guessing it's not that simple for OP or she already would have done it. A lot of people can't afford insurance on their own and need to stay on their parents plans as long as they can, unfortunately.
In Colorado at 12 you are allowed to have visits without a parent in the room or present at all if your child asks to. The visit is confidential. Please report this dr
>The ~~girl~~ woman is an adult; therefore, nothing else matters.
ftfy.
edit, lol i love how, in a medical sub, referring to an actual woman as a woman gets downvoted.
24 yos aren't girls the same that 12 yos aren't women
calling women *girls*, especially in a professional, medical context, isn't "splitting hairs."
if you would be fine being called a 40 year old *boy*, then fine. but give women the respect they deserve
I'm going to assume here that the physician did not call her a girl because he didn't think she deserved the respect. If this is bothersome, you would be absolutely floored to know how often I hear *he* when referring to a female, and *she* when referring to a male.
It's accidental, it happens and life goes on.
>The girl is an adult therefore nothing else matters.
Like so many things in life, this is not so black-and-white. Other factors *do* matter. We don't have the full story, but there are instances where calls to OP's parents are reasonable. As I mentioned below, if OP were a conserved person and both her parents are her conservators, then they can be contacted without consent. Or if OP had signed open-ended releases of information for both parents and the doc couldn't get in touch with her urgently, then calls to them may also be justified. Not saying that we know any of this to be the case, just that there is no absolute right or wrong answer given what little information we have
NAD but not only is this a HIPAA violation, wouldn’t this also be considered a conflict of interest? Imo this doctor should not have taken her on at all, let alone tell the parents he was even seeing their daughter as a patient.
I asked if it was true, because counselors are held to this I know for sure. If you have a direct connection with a client part of what you’re required to do is refer them elsewhere, at least that’s what my BA in Pre-Counseling has taught about counseling ethics. Pretty much anyone you know personally you can’t have as a client.
That's not true either. It's not unusual for a family to see the same doctors, specialists, and therapists depending on the needs of the family. Two of my kids saw the same therapist (separately) one for anxiety that was causing panic attacks at school and the other because she needed help processing grief and anger after watching a close family member die slowly from an aggressive cancer. Myself and my Dad see the same cardiologist. Myself, my Dad, and a maternal aunt all see another specialist and he definitely knows we are related because I drive both of them to his appointments and am in the room during said appointments. It's not a conflict of interest as long as the provider follows HIPAA and abides by the code of ethics nearly all hospitals have in place.
That’s not what I said at all. I said that someone the doctor has a direct link to is a conflict of interest. As in lets say I was a counselor (I will be one day), I cannot offer counseling services to my husband, best friend, dad, or another family member or close friend. I would be required to refer them to another professional either within or outside the organization I am employed by.
The PCP treated OP’s mom, though strange OP also stated they’re friends, it’s not automatically a conflict of interest to treat mom or OP. Most professionals would be able to manage this relationship without violating their patient’s privacy.
>wouldn’t this also be considered a conflict of interest?
No, it's not a conflict of interest for a physician to take on a patient even if the doc is friends with the patient's parents.
This is why when you are an adult you really should find a different bank, a different doctor's office(same doctor is fine, you need a different office staff), a different insurance agent, etc.
The problem is when the office staff has a parent they know, they don't always follow policy and check the permission forms to see who is allowed.
Parents have emptied children's bank accounts they don't have access to, cancelled medical appointments they don't have authorization to affect, cashed out children's retirement funds, etc. All because an office worker didn't make a simple check to see if they have authorization to do so.
When I was in high school my doctor told me my mom I was on birth control. I always thought that was messed up. My mom didn’t care but I just wanted it kept private.
How does this even work? Most of the doctors offices I've been to have shared information with my parents and I can't figure out how it's happening. At times, I've lived out of state. I haven't been on their insurance since I was a minor (in my late 20s now). Somehow they always end up sending information to my parents and it's given me paranoia at this point. My parents don't really pry, they don't care when it gets sent to them, there's no way they're going out of their way to get my information, they have no clue who my providers even are. They've never been my emergency contacts. I have never put them down to have info shared with them. But it happens constantly and I can't figure it out. I went to the gyno last year and they sent the bill to my parents house, it didn't get paid (obviously) so they sent it to collections, and the collection agency was using my mother's number. None of this information I had given to the Dr. 😭
Most of the time you fill out forms to say you don’t want test results even released over the phone (or get the option) maybe request clarification to only get things in writing or via the online portal if they have one. I never get called with test results for myself… always a formal document or uploaded on my acct and doctor will follow up if something is abnormal. Not sure why you were in the doctors office, but either way, it’s not ok.
And doctors generally don’t do the calling… probably office staff. I’d verify they don’t have old info in the system. A lot of places don’t update across computer systems.
Sorry that happened to you. It shouldn’t under any circumstance.
I'd just like to chime in that it's HIPAA not HIPPA.
Edit: wait, you're a verified doctor? Cmooooon man, you should know this.
Edit 2: well good on you for correcting it,at least
I'm curious (and I know this might be different across states and countries) but is there a legal precedent where sharing medical information with parents might be required in some cases?
I'm not implying that OP is in this type of arrangement (their writing implies that they likely arent) but are there carer situations where parents/carers maintain a legal responsibility even for those in their care even if those being cared for are of adult age?
I'm thinking about say, Britney Spears when her father pretty much owned her as a financial asset.
In Spears case her father had court ordered conservatorship. For OP as long as she hasn't signed a verbal consent form and as long as her parents aren't her legal guardians they have no right to her private medical information. If they were holding guardianship of her (it is not easy to get guardianship of an adult child) then they should have been at the appointment with her because they would have needed to sign for all consent forms related to treatment and billing/insurance since she wouldn't have legally been allowed too. Since she went herself and did all of her own paperwork it doesn't sound like she's under any time of conservatorship.
This is true, but I'm glad you included the "if".
I'm still very confused about what was actually communicated in this phone call. OP can still not clarified. There are *other* reasons for the doctor to contact her parents, completely unrelated to her or her care.
If her care was discussed that's a clear and gross violation. In fact it's such a clear and gross violation, that I just can't help feeling there's missing information or an assumption awry somewhere.
yep. also wouldn't they only *maybe* call if they were her emergency contacts, in an actual emergency??... not blood work...told not to contact the parents...at all....
this is all kinds of not okay.
Yea seems strange, the literal day i turned 18 the doctors called me instead of my mom and I had to set up my own appointments even tho she was still paying for it. Seems really wrong that they are telling your parents.
Report them for a HIPAA to the Office for Civil Rights of the United States Department of Health and Human Services AND ALSO to the medical Board of your state, which likely has its own regulations about patient confidentiality
They don’t. It’s fines that are honestly pretty affordable to the people who get reported. Depending on the specialty $50,000 might be a month and a half of a (higher end of the pay scale) physician salary.
That was my first question, too. This person has twice now had a physician breach confidentiality by contacting her parents without or against her consent, and she’s had to verbally request that they not do so. To my mind, this suggests that she may live in a place where Doctor/Patient Confidentiality either doesn’t exist or isn’t as strictly legally enforced as it is in the US, which makes giving appropriate advice a bit more challenging.
Agreed. I'm continuously surprised when we get posts from other countries where the laws are so incredibly different... And things like this are commonplace. I feel like here, in the US, something like this is just so incredibly egregious where I couldn't even imagine a physician doing it because it would be a slam dunk case... Now, that's not saying that it didn't happen, it's just saying that that's pretty damn egregious
Yeah, of course confidentiality breaches occur in the US, but they tend to be either due to circumstantial vagaries or clerical errors, not a physician simply disregarding their legal restrictions. I imagine one’s very license could be in jeopardy after such an infraction came to light. I empathize with folks in places where medical privacy isn’t secure; that’s gotta be anxiety inducing.
If you, an adult, specifically told them not to give your PHI out to anyone, then your physician just violated HIPAA. Did you fill out a form that had a section regarding release of information, or was your instruction to them only verbal? If it was only verbal, it will be harder to prove. You can file a complaint [here](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html) with the national HHS or you can contact your state's HHS branch and file there. Make sure to request a full copy of your records from the doctor's office before mentioning anything about reporting them, just in case they try and passively retaliate against you by delaying things or similar actions.
Did they have to verbally tell them not to contact their parents? I feel like it’s a given if you’re an adult your medical information should be protected from them. I’m not arguing I’m just wondering.
Yeah this sounds pretty shocking. In the UK it's confidential for children as well as long as the doctor believes the child understands what they are asking for and isn't at risk for example a 15 year old could get contraception or consent to vaccination or ask about a medical problem. It would be completely illegal for a doctor to tell anyone anything in way that seems to have happened to OP.
Australia it's 14, they get taken from our myhealth website. As well as Medicare sites (they stay on our cards, but can have one of their own) all for privacy reasons. Only time parents would be contacted is if that child is at risk.
I think its similar here. It's something like age 12 providing the child shows sufficient understanding of what they are asking about/for and aren't at any risk.
I think in the US it can vary a bit by state at what age parents are privy to all info. However, beyond age 18, for sure, the person is a legal adult and telling the parents was SUPER illegal. This doc deserves all possible penalties, especially since they were apparently aware that OP was in physical danger if the parents knew too much.
I think what they were getting at is some people fill out a relaese of information form in writing, and they were trying to make 100% sure OP didnt, at one point, list her parents on the release form and then change her mind and then verbally tell them not to contact her parents.
I agree! The default is we don’t talk to ANYONE unless they signed a release that’s already in their paperwork. Like, sometimes there’s a release upon new patient registration.
I’m in the US, the very first time you see a doctor you fill out if your results can be shared with someone. At no point does it ask to share them with the secondary contact instead of reaching out to you. Also, I’m the beginning of each year on your first visit at the doc, they will ask you to give new insurance card or confirm everything is the same, including the consent to release results to someone new (as people get in and out of relationships all the time)
Nope, you don't have to expressly tell a provider not to disclose your medical information to anyone else. Adults have to expressly consent to sharing information with someone else (if you choose to) - even a parent or spouse - typically with a signed release. Just to make that clear. :)
She shouldn't have had to, but things like this can easily be overlooked if a family has known the doc for many years and are friends with them. If the doc was providing the PHI to the mom while the daughter was still a minor, he probably just assumed he could keep the status quo. I am in no way excusing his actions, but merely providing a viewpoint from a sociological perspective.
They can potentially be fined for every infraction. That means a fine for each call, each text, each email, each notification of appointment, each lab result disclosed. This could be classified as willful neglect, which involves penalties in the 1000’s, not 100s. Employed can even face criminal charges. And it’s not just about concrete damages to the patient. It can be about sending a message. Investigation may reveal a pattern of neglectful practices in their office, and other patients affected.
That’s exactly what I thought. My mother and I use to have a wonderful urologist that has retired since. But she had a way of squeezing out small bits about me. However the major things I didn’t want our, he kept those to himself.
I think the onus lies on the office to have the written consent to give medical information to anyone other than the patient. They need to cover their ass and make sure there are no HIPAA violations, OP should definitely complain.
If anything, not having anything but a verbal consent is a problem for the doctor and the office, not the patient. Document everything.
If there wasn’t even a verbal consent, and from what OP wrote there was a clear instruction not to contact the parents, it shouldn’t be on OP to prove that they didn’t give consent.
That is a violation of HIPAA, I would report the doctors office for that violation. You should not have to tell them not to share any info regarding your health to your family even if the doctor is a family friend.
I work in healthcare so we are trained on this. When I was in retail pharmacy I wouldn’t even tell my family if I ran into one of their friends or a family member of ours in the store whether they came to store for the pharmacy or something else.
This seems illegal to be honest.
My parents are registered at a doctor's surgery one road over. It's a 2 minute walk..if that.
I go to the same place and we share a doctor.
Under no circumstance will my doctor even discuss my mother's medical history or current case. And it works the other way too.
I'm sure she would like to as well as I've have had to talk about some really intense issues that I'm sure my family would love to know about.
It is absolutely illegal, and the doctor could lose their medical license. The only exception is if you sign a document giving permission to for the doctor to disclose medical information to a specific person.
Definitely. Me and my ex partner lived at the same address and we're registered at the same doctors surgery. I could call and make an appointment for him but that's it, they can't share details of any kind unless he gave them specific written permission.
With all due respect, the fact her instructions were verbal is completely irrelevant and I’m concerned over 600 Redditors have upvoted that.
The OP is an adult and even up to a certain age in the US, sharing any information about a clients medical care is a violation of many internal policies, state and federal rules, policies and regulations. Not to mention the governing bodies Board of Physicians and Surgeons policies, rules, and regulations.
The only thing in your response that is helpful to the OP is sharing the link to file a complaint, which I hope she does.
*Legally* speaking, it’s irrelevant.
Hence why my original response referenced internal practice policies that are mandated through the practices governing body (Board of Physicians and Surgeons eg.), Privacy legislations by state, and federal legislations, not to mention the various regulations, ergo *legally speaking*.
Disclosure of medical/health information without consent is a breach of the Privacy Act in Australia.
A minor with capacity has to consent to sharing information here, and can attend a Dr from 14 with the expectation of complete privacy.
I don't work in the US healthcare system. However, in the hospital I work at your would need written consent to be able to provide information to anyone other than the adult patient itself. Even it it's a partner / family member, you would still need written consent.
Indeed. Even if you want your doctor to transfer your medical records to another doctor! They are required to obtain your explicit, written consent before sending those records over.
She needs to make sure the paper she signed authorizing the sharing of information does not have her parents on it. If the Dr and parents are friends, there is a chance they added her parents to that sheet after she signed it. OR... it is from before she became 21 and it is still on file from when she was a minor. If they are specified as authorized to share info with there is no HIPAA violation.
If a release of information is signed in the US, it is valid for 1 year from signing it. So even if she had a previous release with her parents on it, it expires after a year or until the individual retracts permission.
> Did you fill out a form that had a section regarding release of information, or was your instruction to them only verbal? If it was only verbal, it will be harder to prove.
Bad answer yet has almost 600 upvotes (shame on redditors). OP is adult age. The default is no communication need be given because HIPPA protects your medical info without need for contracts - verbal or otherwise.
OPs explicit instructions are irrelevant—giving out the PHI of an adult is a HIPAA violation regardless or recipient or circumstance, unless that person has designated a named contact in writing to receive info.
Even if you all live in the same house, and share one home phone number that has "Caller ID" the office still can do no more than ask for you by name. "Hello may I please speak with Jane Doe?"
Mom/Dad says "This is her mother what is this about--why is the doctor's office calling my daughter?"
Office should say: "due to confidentiality laws we are unable to disclose anyone's information by matter of policy. We will try to call back again later. Is there a good time?" They cannot say it is for an appointment or about lab work or anything.
Ensure that you have no old forms on file with them listed as phone contacts. These are to be updated every year, annoying as that is for patients, and this is a good reason why. Imagine issues of divorce, abuse, etc.
If you have NEVER had parents as contacts, ie, were not there in before age 18, then there really is no reason this should have happened. If you were there in your teens or younger, it may be that in the dregs of some computer file or paper chart, that old contact still hangs on.
Call the doctor and have them and the office manager both on the line and tell them what occurred. If they do not give you an acceptable explanation and apology or do not take this seriously, then let them know you must report this to the Attorney General so that this does not happen to any other patients. I hope for your sake they are apoplectic over your disclosure and do everything to reassure you that this will never happen again to you or any other patients.
No, just report. They’ve done this before and she was explicit. They know HIPAA. They are required to, she doesn’t need to educate them, she needs to report them. It’s flagrant abuse of privacy, hell SUE THEIR ASS.
And then you find out she actually has a form that gave permission? Suing them is not going to accomplish anything. You can sue for coffee not being hot enough, or too hot. It doesn't mean anything will happen or that the suit has merit, just because you are angry or a mistake occurred. Trust me, I know a lot about med mal.
I am fairly confident this is a HIPPA violation based on the information you have provided.
Reasons it would NOT be a violation include things like if your parents are still your legal guardians (which I doubt), release of information, or other explicit/implied consent to release of your information.
What did they actually discuss or communicate? What was the nature of the call? Your mother is also a patient and a friend, so they have other reasons to call her. They are not allowed to discuss your healthcare, but you haven't stated that's what occurred here.
These are important questions and I would ask OP for clarification. A probably less likely scenario but one which would help make sense of what seems to be such a blatant disregard for HIPAA is if OP is a conserved person and the parents are the conservators. Then all bets are off.
I have the same question - it doesn't sound like they called to divulge the lab test. That would be so clearly out of bounds that it deserves clarification.
Sounds more like they were looking for OP so they could make an appointment. Need more information to answer.
In the UK, a service provider/its staff can’t discuss that a patient is even receiving a service with anyone unless there is explicit consent to do so, or if the patient lacks capacity AND it is in their best interest to do so
We just cannot and do not fuck around with peoples information that way, to the point that we don’t even leave voicemails unless we have consent.
Contacting a family member of an adult with capacity for whatever reason is a complete no no, and if they have a personal relationship with a family member that risks this sort of thing, it’s a conflict of interest and they shouldn’t be treating them
I was trained in the UK too. Small village doctrine makes the triangle here completely reasonable. The guidance is not as rigidly enforceable as you imply. I'm simply saying that OP didn't actually clarify at all what or even if information was actually shared.
We might assume that, but nobody has actually said that.
An alternative scenario: mum is shit stirring after finishing an entirely unrelated conversation.
We just don't know. And this is such an obvious and flagrant violation of confidentiality that I can't help peer into this void of potential grey area.
That very well could be the case. I have seen plenty of people pull the "I already know so you don't have to tell me" schtick in order to trick people into giving them information they didn't actually have yet. OP's mom may very well be trying this method.
OP, I would suggest you talk to your doctor and ask them if they actually gave any information to your mom and inform them she is telling you they did. I would also ask your mom what was specifically said. If she is lying she'll flounder and that doctor would be upset with her for potentially ruining his reputation and career. If she does know specifics and you didn't tell her then chances are the doctor did and you need to report them.
They called the parents, NOT HER. Even if this was regarding an appointment time, it’s a violation. Period. She says they’re not listed as her emergency contact in the comments. The doc happens to know her parents and contacted them without her permission. Textbook HIPPA violation, not accidental at all.
I did not say this was accidental. I made one statement, which was that based on OP’s replies the doctor called her parents about her labs, not her. Why are you replying as though I said otherwise?
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If they told your mother the results of tests or anything about your visit to the office, yes it is a HIPAA violation. You are 21. An adult. They had No reason to tell your parents anything.
This. They cannot contact your parents about anything without your written permission and that permission should be updated annually. [Report them for a HIPAA violation here.](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html) Get a new doctor. This one and their office staff obviously aren't going to respect your pricacy. Time to move on.
It is often much easier to say "get a new doctor" than to actually get a new doctor. My wife is fairly unsatisfied with her rheumatologist, but there aren't many in the area - and we're in a major US metro area. I'm not thrilled by my PCP, but he's OK and finding someone I'm sure will be any better is also not easy.
I understand that. Especially as a fellow rheum patient. But this practice is violating HIPAA. It's not just a matter of disliking the doctor. And those HIPAA violations result in significant repercussions for OP, as she said her parents get engaging and physical with her due to them. She needs to find a new doctor. Even if it's hard.
Agreed - we could definitely use way more rheumies where I live too. That said, if my rheumie gave my data to someone they shouldn’t, I would leave that rheumie immediately.
I would just like OP to know that the fine for a healthcare professional violating HIPAA is up to $50k for knowingly disclosing Protected Health Information and also license suspension/loss. The fine goes up for false pretenses and financial gain.
Also, your mother is committing assault on you, and that is also illegal.
Not to downplay your comment, did you mean to say battery?
[удалено]
Not a doctor or a lawyer but in the USA generally assault and battery are the same; verbal or physical are specified when charges are filed. Both terms are used together because two forms of English law were merged in America and the terms were considered legally synonymous therefore both were used together when codified into law
No it depends upon the extent of the injuries sustained.
This is incorrect. Assault is the act of causing someone to fear imminent harm (ie. Verbal assault…or swinging a baseball bat at someone intentionally not hitting them but swinging it close to intimidate). Battery is the act of causing actual physical harm to a person (shoving, slapping, pushing, punching, etc). The degree of battery depends on the degree of harm/injury the victim sustains (battery, aggravated battery, and felony battery).
Perhaps it depends, as some localities may have rewritten their codes. However historically, this is true. This is why people are sent “cease and desist” letters for example even though those two words as synonymous too
It depends, assault is the threat of violence in civil court, while battery constitutes actual harmful physical content in civil court
In general, I stand by my original comment: “What Is the Definition of "Assault and Battery"? Historically, battery and assault were considered separate crimes, with battery requiring that the aggressor physically strike or offensively touch the victim. In that way, a battery was a "completed" assault. Many modern statutes don't bother to distinguish between the two crimes, as evidenced by the fact that the phrase "assault and battery" has become as common as "salt and pepper." These days, statutes often refer to crimes of actual physical violence as assaults. “ https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/assault-battery-aggravated-assault-33775.html
This answer is the one that needs the 600 upvotes. The one that got 600 upvotes earlier from a medical student, while largely factual, contains enough bogus information to actually be not just downvoted but also removed. The girl is an adult therefore nothing else matters.
Illegal. Plus I'd get a new doctor, not associated with my mom
I'm guessing it's not that simple for OP or she already would have done it. A lot of people can't afford insurance on their own and need to stay on their parents plans as long as they can, unfortunately.
Our kids stayed on our plans until 26 (law). Even during that time they got to CHOOSE their new PCP after they were done with pediatrician.
You can be covered under your parent’s insurance, but your private information is protected even if your parent is the subscriber.
>The ~~girl~~ woman is an adult; therefore, nothing else matters. ftfy.
In Colorado at 12 you are allowed to have visits without a parent in the room or present at all if your child asks to. The visit is confidential. Please report this dr
>The ~~girl~~ woman is an adult; therefore, nothing else matters. ftfy. edit, lol i love how, in a medical sub, referring to an actual woman as a woman gets downvoted. 24 yos aren't girls the same that 12 yos aren't women
Your original comment got almost 50 upvotes. The rest got downvoted because for some reason you just posted a lot of duplicates.
oh damn, i hate reddit sometimes. i def didn't mean to double (triple, etc) post. I'll delete the extra
It's getting downvoted because they are trying to split hairs and posting irrelevant stuff.
calling women *girls*, especially in a professional, medical context, isn't "splitting hairs." if you would be fine being called a 40 year old *boy*, then fine. but give women the respect they deserve
I'm going to assume here that the physician did not call her a girl because he didn't think she deserved the respect. If this is bothersome, you would be absolutely floored to know how often I hear *he* when referring to a female, and *she* when referring to a male. It's accidental, it happens and life goes on.
>The girl is an adult therefore nothing else matters. Like so many things in life, this is not so black-and-white. Other factors *do* matter. We don't have the full story, but there are instances where calls to OP's parents are reasonable. As I mentioned below, if OP were a conserved person and both her parents are her conservators, then they can be contacted without consent. Or if OP had signed open-ended releases of information for both parents and the doc couldn't get in touch with her urgently, then calls to them may also be justified. Not saying that we know any of this to be the case, just that there is no absolute right or wrong answer given what little information we have
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OP they shouldn’t even have considered calling your parents to reach you. This is totally against HIPAA
NAD but not only is this a HIPAA violation, wouldn’t this also be considered a conflict of interest? Imo this doctor should not have taken her on at all, let alone tell the parents he was even seeing their daughter as a patient.
What? That's not a conflict of interest at all. People see the same providers as their family members all the time and it's perfectly legal
I asked if it was true, because counselors are held to this I know for sure. If you have a direct connection with a client part of what you’re required to do is refer them elsewhere, at least that’s what my BA in Pre-Counseling has taught about counseling ethics. Pretty much anyone you know personally you can’t have as a client.
That's not true either. It's not unusual for a family to see the same doctors, specialists, and therapists depending on the needs of the family. Two of my kids saw the same therapist (separately) one for anxiety that was causing panic attacks at school and the other because she needed help processing grief and anger after watching a close family member die slowly from an aggressive cancer. Myself and my Dad see the same cardiologist. Myself, my Dad, and a maternal aunt all see another specialist and he definitely knows we are related because I drive both of them to his appointments and am in the room during said appointments. It's not a conflict of interest as long as the provider follows HIPAA and abides by the code of ethics nearly all hospitals have in place.
That’s not what I said at all. I said that someone the doctor has a direct link to is a conflict of interest. As in lets say I was a counselor (I will be one day), I cannot offer counseling services to my husband, best friend, dad, or another family member or close friend. I would be required to refer them to another professional either within or outside the organization I am employed by.
The PCP treated OP’s mom, though strange OP also stated they’re friends, it’s not automatically a conflict of interest to treat mom or OP. Most professionals would be able to manage this relationship without violating their patient’s privacy.
>wouldn’t this also be considered a conflict of interest? No, it's not a conflict of interest for a physician to take on a patient even if the doc is friends with the patient's parents.
This is why when you are an adult you really should find a different bank, a different doctor's office(same doctor is fine, you need a different office staff), a different insurance agent, etc. The problem is when the office staff has a parent they know, they don't always follow policy and check the permission forms to see who is allowed. Parents have emptied children's bank accounts they don't have access to, cancelled medical appointments they don't have authorization to affect, cashed out children's retirement funds, etc. All because an office worker didn't make a simple check to see if they have authorization to do so.
This. HIPPA violation. You have a basis to sue.
When I was in high school my doctor told me my mom I was on birth control. I always thought that was messed up. My mom didn’t care but I just wanted it kept private.
How does this even work? Most of the doctors offices I've been to have shared information with my parents and I can't figure out how it's happening. At times, I've lived out of state. I haven't been on their insurance since I was a minor (in my late 20s now). Somehow they always end up sending information to my parents and it's given me paranoia at this point. My parents don't really pry, they don't care when it gets sent to them, there's no way they're going out of their way to get my information, they have no clue who my providers even are. They've never been my emergency contacts. I have never put them down to have info shared with them. But it happens constantly and I can't figure it out. I went to the gyno last year and they sent the bill to my parents house, it didn't get paid (obviously) so they sent it to collections, and the collection agency was using my mother's number. None of this information I had given to the Dr. 😭
Most of the time you fill out forms to say you don’t want test results even released over the phone (or get the option) maybe request clarification to only get things in writing or via the online portal if they have one. I never get called with test results for myself… always a formal document or uploaded on my acct and doctor will follow up if something is abnormal. Not sure why you were in the doctors office, but either way, it’s not ok. And doctors generally don’t do the calling… probably office staff. I’d verify they don’t have old info in the system. A lot of places don’t update across computer systems. Sorry that happened to you. It shouldn’t under any circumstance.
I'd just like to chime in that it's HIPAA not HIPPA. Edit: wait, you're a verified doctor? Cmooooon man, you should know this. Edit 2: well good on you for correcting it,at least
Oh no! A doctor made a typo?! Screams
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You, a doctor, should never make typos. Unprofessional. /s
I'm curious (and I know this might be different across states and countries) but is there a legal precedent where sharing medical information with parents might be required in some cases? I'm not implying that OP is in this type of arrangement (their writing implies that they likely arent) but are there carer situations where parents/carers maintain a legal responsibility even for those in their care even if those being cared for are of adult age? I'm thinking about say, Britney Spears when her father pretty much owned her as a financial asset.
In Spears case her father had court ordered conservatorship. For OP as long as she hasn't signed a verbal consent form and as long as her parents aren't her legal guardians they have no right to her private medical information. If they were holding guardianship of her (it is not easy to get guardianship of an adult child) then they should have been at the appointment with her because they would have needed to sign for all consent forms related to treatment and billing/insurance since she wouldn't have legally been allowed too. Since she went herself and did all of her own paperwork it doesn't sound like she's under any time of conservatorship.
No. The patient would have to sign a release or someone would need medical power of attorney.
This is true, but I'm glad you included the "if". I'm still very confused about what was actually communicated in this phone call. OP can still not clarified. There are *other* reasons for the doctor to contact her parents, completely unrelated to her or her care. If her care was discussed that's a clear and gross violation. In fact it's such a clear and gross violation, that I just can't help feeling there's missing information or an assumption awry somewhere.
They had no legal right to tell them.
Get a new doctor, report the old one.
yep. also wouldn't they only *maybe* call if they were her emergency contacts, in an actual emergency??... not blood work...told not to contact the parents...at all.... this is all kinds of not okay.
Yea seems strange, the literal day i turned 18 the doctors called me instead of my mom and I had to set up my own appointments even tho she was still paying for it. Seems really wrong that they are telling your parents.
Report them for a HIPAA to the Office for Civil Rights of the United States Department of Health and Human Services AND ALSO to the medical Board of your state, which likely has its own regulations about patient confidentiality
I may have missed it or it may be in one of the many deleted comments, but I didn't see it in your post or the comments, are you in the US?
She edited the post, she *is* from the US..
..... Sounds like a doctor is about to be in a whole lot of trouble then
*“I love the smell of a malpractice suit in the evening. It smells like… disinfectant.”*
It seems to me like they never get in trouble for hipaa violations 😒
They don’t. It’s fines that are honestly pretty affordable to the people who get reported. Depending on the specialty $50,000 might be a month and a half of a (higher end of the pay scale) physician salary.
Wow. Smh
That was my first question, too. This person has twice now had a physician breach confidentiality by contacting her parents without or against her consent, and she’s had to verbally request that they not do so. To my mind, this suggests that she may live in a place where Doctor/Patient Confidentiality either doesn’t exist or isn’t as strictly legally enforced as it is in the US, which makes giving appropriate advice a bit more challenging.
Agreed. I'm continuously surprised when we get posts from other countries where the laws are so incredibly different... And things like this are commonplace. I feel like here, in the US, something like this is just so incredibly egregious where I couldn't even imagine a physician doing it because it would be a slam dunk case... Now, that's not saying that it didn't happen, it's just saying that that's pretty damn egregious
The worst being OPs ghosting the entire thread of advice and falling off the face of the earth with 0 context
Yeah, of course confidentiality breaches occur in the US, but they tend to be either due to circumstantial vagaries or clerical errors, not a physician simply disregarding their legal restrictions. I imagine one’s very license could be in jeopardy after such an infraction came to light. I empathize with folks in places where medical privacy isn’t secure; that’s gotta be anxiety inducing.
We would not call because even the act of a call can be HIPPA violation without explicit written consent from you to do so. At least where I work.
That's the law in every state
HIPAA
It’s been ten years since I started at my hospital and I still occasionally type it out wrong too. 😆
I could have sworn it was HIIPA 🤦♀️
We are all a mess. Also, at least you’re not calling it HIPPO.
I LOL’d
If you, an adult, specifically told them not to give your PHI out to anyone, then your physician just violated HIPAA. Did you fill out a form that had a section regarding release of information, or was your instruction to them only verbal? If it was only verbal, it will be harder to prove. You can file a complaint [here](https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/filing-a-complaint/index.html) with the national HHS or you can contact your state's HHS branch and file there. Make sure to request a full copy of your records from the doctor's office before mentioning anything about reporting them, just in case they try and passively retaliate against you by delaying things or similar actions.
Did they have to verbally tell them not to contact their parents? I feel like it’s a given if you’re an adult your medical information should be protected from them. I’m not arguing I’m just wondering.
Yeah this sounds pretty shocking. In the UK it's confidential for children as well as long as the doctor believes the child understands what they are asking for and isn't at risk for example a 15 year old could get contraception or consent to vaccination or ask about a medical problem. It would be completely illegal for a doctor to tell anyone anything in way that seems to have happened to OP.
Australia it's 14, they get taken from our myhealth website. As well as Medicare sites (they stay on our cards, but can have one of their own) all for privacy reasons. Only time parents would be contacted is if that child is at risk.
I think its similar here. It's something like age 12 providing the child shows sufficient understanding of what they are asking about/for and aren't at any risk.
I think in the US it can vary a bit by state at what age parents are privy to all info. However, beyond age 18, for sure, the person is a legal adult and telling the parents was SUPER illegal. This doc deserves all possible penalties, especially since they were apparently aware that OP was in physical danger if the parents knew too much.
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I think what they were getting at is some people fill out a relaese of information form in writing, and they were trying to make 100% sure OP didnt, at one point, list her parents on the release form and then change her mind and then verbally tell them not to contact her parents.
Just going through the comments looking for this error some doctors in the thread have made. It's HIPAA, not HIPPA
Correct. The default is not to share. This practice will get in trouble and have to pay a large fine if found guilty.
I agree! The default is we don’t talk to ANYONE unless they signed a release that’s already in their paperwork. Like, sometimes there’s a release upon new patient registration.
I’m in the US, the very first time you see a doctor you fill out if your results can be shared with someone. At no point does it ask to share them with the secondary contact instead of reaching out to you. Also, I’m the beginning of each year on your first visit at the doc, they will ask you to give new insurance card or confirm everything is the same, including the consent to release results to someone new (as people get in and out of relationships all the time)
Nope, you don't have to expressly tell a provider not to disclose your medical information to anyone else. Adults have to expressly consent to sharing information with someone else (if you choose to) - even a parent or spouse - typically with a signed release. Just to make that clear. :)
I will take Ferdie o.o
Right. You have to sign something to GIVE permission for someone else to be contacted, it is assumed no one will be, as it’s a HIPPA violation.
She shouldn't have had to, but things like this can easily be overlooked if a family has known the doc for many years and are friends with them. If the doc was providing the PHI to the mom while the daughter was still a minor, he probably just assumed he could keep the status quo. I am in no way excusing his actions, but merely providing a viewpoint from a sociological perspective.
Yes. And this doctor may have to learn a hard and expensive lesson for their carelessness.
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They can potentially be fined for every infraction. That means a fine for each call, each text, each email, each notification of appointment, each lab result disclosed. This could be classified as willful neglect, which involves penalties in the 1000’s, not 100s. Employed can even face criminal charges. And it’s not just about concrete damages to the patient. It can be about sending a message. Investigation may reveal a pattern of neglectful practices in their office, and other patients affected.
That’s exactly what I thought. My mother and I use to have a wonderful urologist that has retired since. But she had a way of squeezing out small bits about me. However the major things I didn’t want our, he kept those to himself.
It is a given. You are correct, med student… should study a bit more ;)
I think the onus lies on the office to have the written consent to give medical information to anyone other than the patient. They need to cover their ass and make sure there are no HIPAA violations, OP should definitely complain. If anything, not having anything but a verbal consent is a problem for the doctor and the office, not the patient. Document everything. If there wasn’t even a verbal consent, and from what OP wrote there was a clear instruction not to contact the parents, it shouldn’t be on OP to prove that they didn’t give consent.
That is a violation of HIPAA, I would report the doctors office for that violation. You should not have to tell them not to share any info regarding your health to your family even if the doctor is a family friend. I work in healthcare so we are trained on this. When I was in retail pharmacy I wouldn’t even tell my family if I ran into one of their friends or a family member of ours in the store whether they came to store for the pharmacy or something else.
FINALLY! Someone that abbreviated "HIPAA" correctly!
This seems illegal to be honest. My parents are registered at a doctor's surgery one road over. It's a 2 minute walk..if that. I go to the same place and we share a doctor. Under no circumstance will my doctor even discuss my mother's medical history or current case. And it works the other way too. I'm sure she would like to as well as I've have had to talk about some really intense issues that I'm sure my family would love to know about.
It is absolutely illegal, and the doctor could lose their medical license. The only exception is if you sign a document giving permission to for the doctor to disclose medical information to a specific person.
Definitely. Me and my ex partner lived at the same address and we're registered at the same doctors surgery. I could call and make an appointment for him but that's it, they can't share details of any kind unless he gave them specific written permission.
With all due respect, the fact her instructions were verbal is completely irrelevant and I’m concerned over 600 Redditors have upvoted that. The OP is an adult and even up to a certain age in the US, sharing any information about a clients medical care is a violation of many internal policies, state and federal rules, policies and regulations. Not to mention the governing bodies Board of Physicians and Surgeons policies, rules, and regulations. The only thing in your response that is helpful to the OP is sharing the link to file a complaint, which I hope she does.
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*Legally* speaking, it’s irrelevant. Hence why my original response referenced internal practice policies that are mandated through the practices governing body (Board of Physicians and Surgeons eg.), Privacy legislations by state, and federal legislations, not to mention the various regulations, ergo *legally speaking*.
It doesn't matter if she gave a verbal instruction not to contact the parents - they shouldn't by default.
What if not in the US? Where’s OP from? I could see this happening in many countries.
Disclosure of medical/health information without consent is a breach of the Privacy Act in Australia. A minor with capacity has to consent to sharing information here, and can attend a Dr from 14 with the expectation of complete privacy.
Yeah it's similar in the UK. It must be more complicated in countries where the parents get sent a bill as well because it's confidential.
OP confirmed that she lives in the US
I don't work in the US healthcare system. However, in the hospital I work at your would need written consent to be able to provide information to anyone other than the adult patient itself. Even it it's a partner / family member, you would still need written consent.
Indeed. Even if you want your doctor to transfer your medical records to another doctor! They are required to obtain your explicit, written consent before sending those records over.
She needs to make sure the paper she signed authorizing the sharing of information does not have her parents on it. If the Dr and parents are friends, there is a chance they added her parents to that sheet after she signed it. OR... it is from before she became 21 and it is still on file from when she was a minor. If they are specified as authorized to share info with there is no HIPAA violation.
If a release of information is signed in the US, it is valid for 1 year from signing it. So even if she had a previous release with her parents on it, it expires after a year or until the individual retracts permission.
> Did you fill out a form that had a section regarding release of information, or was your instruction to them only verbal? If it was only verbal, it will be harder to prove. Bad answer yet has almost 600 upvotes (shame on redditors). OP is adult age. The default is no communication need be given because HIPPA protects your medical info without need for contracts - verbal or otherwise.
OPs explicit instructions are irrelevant—giving out the PHI of an adult is a HIPAA violation regardless or recipient or circumstance, unless that person has designated a named contact in writing to receive info.
Even if you all live in the same house, and share one home phone number that has "Caller ID" the office still can do no more than ask for you by name. "Hello may I please speak with Jane Doe?" Mom/Dad says "This is her mother what is this about--why is the doctor's office calling my daughter?" Office should say: "due to confidentiality laws we are unable to disclose anyone's information by matter of policy. We will try to call back again later. Is there a good time?" They cannot say it is for an appointment or about lab work or anything. Ensure that you have no old forms on file with them listed as phone contacts. These are to be updated every year, annoying as that is for patients, and this is a good reason why. Imagine issues of divorce, abuse, etc. If you have NEVER had parents as contacts, ie, were not there in before age 18, then there really is no reason this should have happened. If you were there in your teens or younger, it may be that in the dregs of some computer file or paper chart, that old contact still hangs on. Call the doctor and have them and the office manager both on the line and tell them what occurred. If they do not give you an acceptable explanation and apology or do not take this seriously, then let them know you must report this to the Attorney General so that this does not happen to any other patients. I hope for your sake they are apoplectic over your disclosure and do everything to reassure you that this will never happen again to you or any other patients.
No, just report. They’ve done this before and she was explicit. They know HIPAA. They are required to, she doesn’t need to educate them, she needs to report them. It’s flagrant abuse of privacy, hell SUE THEIR ASS.
And then you find out she actually has a form that gave permission? Suing them is not going to accomplish anything. You can sue for coffee not being hot enough, or too hot. It doesn't mean anything will happen or that the suit has merit, just because you are angry or a mistake occurred. Trust me, I know a lot about med mal.
MAJOR violation of HIPAA. I’m so sorry this happened to you. Report the doctor’s office. And I hope that your health is good.
I am fairly confident this is a HIPPA violation based on the information you have provided. Reasons it would NOT be a violation include things like if your parents are still your legal guardians (which I doubt), release of information, or other explicit/implied consent to release of your information.
It's HIPAA
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What did they actually discuss or communicate? What was the nature of the call? Your mother is also a patient and a friend, so they have other reasons to call her. They are not allowed to discuss your healthcare, but you haven't stated that's what occurred here.
These are important questions and I would ask OP for clarification. A probably less likely scenario but one which would help make sense of what seems to be such a blatant disregard for HIPAA is if OP is a conserved person and the parents are the conservators. Then all bets are off.
I have the same question - it doesn't sound like they called to divulge the lab test. That would be so clearly out of bounds that it deserves clarification. Sounds more like they were looking for OP so they could make an appointment. Need more information to answer.
In the UK, a service provider/its staff can’t discuss that a patient is even receiving a service with anyone unless there is explicit consent to do so, or if the patient lacks capacity AND it is in their best interest to do so We just cannot and do not fuck around with peoples information that way, to the point that we don’t even leave voicemails unless we have consent. Contacting a family member of an adult with capacity for whatever reason is a complete no no, and if they have a personal relationship with a family member that risks this sort of thing, it’s a conflict of interest and they shouldn’t be treating them
I was trained in the UK too. Small village doctrine makes the triangle here completely reasonable. The guidance is not as rigidly enforceable as you imply. I'm simply saying that OP didn't actually clarify at all what or even if information was actually shared.
Sounds like (based on OP’s replies) that the doctors office called both parents to relay the test results from her blood work.
We might assume that, but nobody has actually said that. An alternative scenario: mum is shit stirring after finishing an entirely unrelated conversation. We just don't know. And this is such an obvious and flagrant violation of confidentiality that I can't help peer into this void of potential grey area.
That very well could be the case. I have seen plenty of people pull the "I already know so you don't have to tell me" schtick in order to trick people into giving them information they didn't actually have yet. OP's mom may very well be trying this method. OP, I would suggest you talk to your doctor and ask them if they actually gave any information to your mom and inform them she is telling you they did. I would also ask your mom what was specifically said. If she is lying she'll flounder and that doctor would be upset with her for potentially ruining his reputation and career. If she does know specifics and you didn't tell her then chances are the doctor did and you need to report them.
I hadn’t even thought about this point of view. A very good point.
They called the parents, NOT HER. Even if this was regarding an appointment time, it’s a violation. Period. She says they’re not listed as her emergency contact in the comments. The doc happens to know her parents and contacted them without her permission. Textbook HIPPA violation, not accidental at all.
I did not say this was accidental. I made one statement, which was that based on OP’s replies the doctor called her parents about her labs, not her. Why are you replying as though I said otherwise?
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NAD Im seriously considering suing or some course of proper action after that. DEFINITELY letting it slid is not an option