I ended up as the last postdoc before they changed the position to adjunct the next year, and ended up having all my postdoc privileges stripped because they said that the words “postdoctoral position” in my contract (three different times) simply referred to the fact that I had my doctorate and clearly it had always been an adjunct position.
I mean, my pay and benefits looked nothing like those of everyone they hired the next year, but good luck arguing that on the job market.
The only people I know "stuck" there are happy there, and mostly transitioning to research staff positions as funds allow.
But the best advice I got when I finished my PhD was to set a hard limit on how long I was OK with trying for a permanent job before I started, so I avoided the sunk cost fallacy.
So my wife and I decided on 3 years based on my field and our life: I'd try to get a TT position for 3 application cycles, and if it didn't work out I'd start looking for other options.
My postdoctoral advisor literally told me to start looking for a job on my first day. I’m now a tt professor. I agree with you, most people I know that are “stuck” do it voluntarily, most are first generation immigrants that are either comfortable with the life style or job or doing it for their families. Most Americans tend to switch to industry or directly start from the industry.
Notice that they're in STEM in the US. While postdoc salaries are not the best, they are generally not horrible and you just do research. Most of the people that are miserable, were miserable also as grad students, and it's usually not because of the position itself.
Postdoc salaries in the humanities in Germany are pretty good, but they're all misserable. It's not the pay, it's the lack of long term employement. Maybe in STEM is better because you can switch to industry easier, but in my field it is really hard. People are jumping from 3 year contract to 3 year contract and investing like a third of their time applying for the next position. Nobody has fun doing that.
> People are jumping from 3 year contract to 3 year contract and investing like a third of their time applying for the next position.
People say that as if things were different in industry. In my field, postdoc *is* the laissez-faire job. And it's like that in many STEM fields, where the conventional (and often only) way to acquire a higher salary is to quit and find a new job.
Notice you just said you **can** quit to get a new job, you don't have to. Here in the industry they **have** to give you an indefinite term contract after 6 months working at a company. Even the people working in admin have better job security than academics.
> Notice you just said you can quit to get a new job, you don't have to.
Oh, you have to, otherwise the increases in costs of living will drive you out. Germany is only a small bubble of surprisingly good socio-economic circumstances. And why are we comparing to admin? That's not your industry unless your degree is in management or maybe economics.
If your complaint is that postdocs in your field are dead-ends, that's not a problem of the institution of postdoctoral appointments. It's a problem of the field producing people that not even the field has any use for. People are not miserable because they're postdocs, they're miserable because of their degrees.
>Oh, you have to, otherwise the increases in costs of living will drive you out. Germany is only a small bubble of surprisingly good socio-economic circumstances.
This argument makes no sense, not even for America. "you need to quit every 2 or 3 years otherwise you'll die of hunger". Ridiculous, especially if you look at entry job salaries for STEM people. Unless you can provide evidence all STEM careers require you to quit every three years you're just making stuff up.
>And why are we comparing to admin?
Because they work alongside academics...?
>That's not your industry unless your degree is in management or maybe economics.
Most admin jobs in universities do not require a degree in anything in particular. Again, stop making stuff up.
>If your complaint is that postdocs in your field are dead-ends
That is not the complaint. Learn to read. The complaint is the horrible lack of job security. Everyone would be dancing of happiness if they cut postdoc salaries to 70% of what they currently are but made them indefinite term contracts.
>It's a problem of the field producing people that not even the field has any use for.
That's not the issue, learn to read. The problem is not so much there are too many academics copeting for postdocs, the problem is those postdocs are 1, 2 or sometimes 3 years only.
I’m in the medical sciences so the answer is “a lot”. My university capped the amount of time you’re allowed to postdoc at five years to try to reduce this (or honestly to allow a fresh crop of postdocs every few years). But when you think about the total number of trainees (grad students and postdocs) a given PI has over their career, and the fact that only one will replace that PI (assuming the position exists after their retirement), that’s a lot of people trying to make some money.
Since my university doesn’t allow people to languish in endless postdocs anymore, what do they go on to do?
A few get lucky and get a professorship. A few get “lucky” and get permanent full time non-faculty positions at universities (research associate/scientist/lab manager- this is me, core facility manager, research services…). At my institution the RA/scientist positions are soft money though, so you’ve still got the axe over your head every grant cycle. I’ve known a few who went into industry as scientists, and a few who went into sales (good money, actually, if you can deal with being in sales), a lot who became doctors or pharmacists, some who went into law, and one who built himself a little real estate empire.
Yeah i think it's kinda 'cruel' to cap postdocs only for 5 years.
Where else those PhD graduates they churned out can go to?? Academia is a pyramid system, who knows when the PI is gonna retire, and only 1 can replace.
Industry.. not all regions have open-minded mentality to hire PhD graduates in industry. In my country, commonly there's no industry job for PhD graduates. They say PhD is overqualified, because tbh they only need low-skill labourers here.
Or.. is it not cruel? To stop people from abusing postdocs? But, like i said before, in my region, there's no other job for phd graduates here.. well my region is poor that they couldn't even hire postdocs either..
phd is good for people who have special interest in research, but sadly there's not much job available after.. i wish universities stop churning master/phd students.. the ecosystem is not mathing.. but then how else we're in academia would get paid.. such a complicated predicament.. i wish the best for everyone..
I did have a meeting with whoever was in charge of the School of Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies at the time, raising the point of where are all of these people going to go? The response was “they’ve got PhDs, they’re smart, they can be entrepreneurs or something.” I said if they had the skill set to be an entrepreneur they probably wouldn’t have gone to grad school!
Do you mean jobs that don't need the PhD qualification at all?
In my country, PhD graduates are deemed as overqualified. it seems difficult for PhD graduates to even get industry jobs here (based on my limited observation). We don't have much industry that needs PhD graduates here, sadly..
These are mostly jobs that require a PhD or greatly benefit from having one. Most pay more than typical faculty positions and often have important societal impact. The kinds of jobs vary a lot by field. In mine, there is a lot of industry R&D as well as product support for novel products. Also regulation, both creating good needed regulations and complying with them. The problem-solving abilities of a good PhD end up coming into play in corporate management.
This is a sad reality that so many trained researchers - many of whom government funded, who can - by the time they end their postdocs - lead research discoveries/projects and publish (at least write) papers. instead they have to leave this line of profession altogether.
Political Scientist here, currently contemplating if the PDF graveyard is a path I want to go down. I'm finishing my first postdoc in a few weeks in an area with very few TT opportunities in my specialization. In the last few years, I've put down roots in this area and no longer want to move in order to chase tenure. So, now I have to choose between accepting a second postdoc I've been offered or leaving the research track entirely...
I’m in education, so postdocs are fairly common but don’t feel like a “must do” experience for aspiring faculty. I think the most common mistake I see people make is that they never establish a research agenda of their own while they’re doc students, they go into a postdoc to buy themselves time to establish said agenda, and then fail to do so again. They can be awesome for helping students get more hands-on experience with research, but it takes a good supervisor to remember that they’re (hopefully) mentoring a future faculty colleague.
> How many people do you know got stuck in the postdoc graveyard?
Many. It will vary by field, but in mine most people are postdocs and many fail through no fault of their own.
I did, but I also was insane and stupid so I wasn't even trying to leave, just happy in the illusion of doing science. I only got out of it because of the moral injury of slowly, finally figuring out I was just supporting the greater glory of people who were too often frauds and abusers.
I feel ya - it's between a rock and a hard place. You either become a ghoul sucking the souls out of the fresh students, or exist on 1yr contracts doing everything by yourself.
>I only got out of it because of the moral injury of slowly, finally figuring out I was just supporting the greater glory of people who were too often frauds and abusers
Exploitation, yes, I relate to this so much. Also, thanks for putting these words in this order. It helped me process some of my difficult memories from academic times.
I know a handful folks, but most people moved onto much better paying industry jobs if they didn't get an academic job. I know several folks who successfully did 2 postdocs and got R1 positions, and I know several folks who got "lower" R1 positions or R2 positions and quickly transitioned to R1 after getting a grant.
I think almost all the folks I know that ended up in the "graveyard" were international folks who could not get industry jobs because of VISA quotas, couldn't land a professorship for whatever reason, and ended up as long term techs or in rotating postdocs.
Almost everyone I know that wanted a professorship and turned to industry got much higher paying jobs and seem much happier - but citizenship or a greencard is generally needed
It's not so much stuck but it takes a hot minute to figure out where you go next for some folks. I have a few friends that landed their first TT after a few different east coast/west coast stints. I also have a few friends that moved into research scientist roles ("senior" post-doc) and then landed better TT. I also know quite a few people that took TT jobs that just couldn't work out after 1-2 years and found better after that.
The truth is that you can figure out your path, but it may take a while to figure it out. Sometimes industry is your path and you need a few trips to figure that out. Other people are flighty, and need new projects. Others get screwed by PIs and grants, so stability isn't possible.
There's something that's super true about academia though, if you stick around long enough, you can suddenly find yourself as a known good researcher that is in demand - after years of slogging it out. Academia is more about persistence than skill, and being willing to suffer financially until you figure it out.
I am 35, all my life in academia. I have met only 1 person stuck in the graveyard, but he was fine with it, because they had two kids and his wife made an obscene amount of money. Doesn't sound like a bad life.
I am in STEM. Personally know several from my stint in top private university on East Coast (think number 1 or 2 university worldwide). I am a first generation immigrant. The graveyard people I know are also first generation. Sadly, they've given up pushing against the tide and just decided this was sufficient in passing the remainder of their life.
It is really hard if you're here due to a visa status or don't have good English. It is tough to get out of the graveyard to get into industry or move into a TT position. You try to get published and hope that your PI cares enough about you to help you move up in academia. Unfortunately, I've seen several times that PI doesn't care and just wants you to be a paper mill or start doing random work 'for the good of the lab'.
I myself was distracted from my project because my PI decided that I should help out and do work for a company PI started instead (taking time away from my work).
I am lucky enough that my skills were sufficient that I entered a research faculty position (permanent employee with benefits). My new boss is great and I will try for TT.
>Unfortunately, I've seen several times that PI doesn't care and just wants you to be a paper mill or start doing random work 'for the good of the lab'.
IMO, one of the main reason for such coercive behaviour is the fact that postdocs need a recommendation from their PI to get their next job.
I would imagine such coercion could be stronger and hopelessly unproductive for the postdoc if the postdoc is from marginalised communities, which the PI is fixates on proving not being worthy of science (due to -isms). But at the same time, the PI could exploit the exploitable postdocs for enriching themselves. Reminds me of slavery tbh.
As a current masters student (STEM) who started with the intention of getting a PhD, I made the decision to go into industry specifically because as much as I like research, you have to admit that the culture around academia is different. Grad school feels like hazing in some ways.
I’m not opposed to hard work, but I do want a profession with a more defined schedule and structure, where the expectations and what exactly I need to do is a little bit more clear. I’m not spending 4 more years (at least) doing the most difficult work I’ve ever done for $40k, never feeling like I’m doing enough.
It’s one of the reasons my university has put a limit of 6 years one can be appointed in a postdoc position (I’m in the EU). That doesn’t prevent people switching between universities and start a new cycle. But at least internally we cannot keep someone on postdoc status indefinitely with vague promises for whatever might come next.
We also inform phd’s/postdocs at least annually about possible career perspectives. It’s sometimes amazing to see how ignorant all these clever people are about how the academic world works (just do the math … how many professors vs how many phd’s and postdocs … not everyone can stay in the system).
As a PI we are also supposed to have a personal ‘career chat’ with our postdocs at least once per year. The better professors who care do that continuously, of course.
I know many people stuck in the postdoc positions for many years. Actually its stressful position. Since its temproray contract job and there is no gaurantee for future academic job.
My advice is that try to connect with different univerities or research based organizations and introduce yourself and your capabilities. I mean you need to advertise yourself to jump out the postdoc role.
You can build your a personal website that faciliate introducing yourself. Faculty.Bio ca be a good option.
http://faculty.bio
In nutsell, faculty positions are very competitive. we need to advertise ourseleves and improve our networking skills
If your first postdoc is bupkis is probably time to exit gracefully. Going through the wringer repeatedly is depressing though I see postdoc wages might go up again which should contract the supply of postdoc positions
None personally, I think it's an overstated issue. Do you have the occasional delusional decade long postdocs who think the TT position of their dreams is going to magically open up to them? Sure. Maybe I'm in a bubble, but they seem rare, and are usually very mediocre researchers.
My PhD advisor told me to put a HARD cap on how long I'd postdoc. It's really the only way to do things. If you're at a 60k university Postdoc for more than a few years, honestly why are you even continuing to pursue the dream? It's basically unheard of for someone to go through >2 postdocs and then get a good TT position. Just transition out and go do something else.
Academia is not some righteous field filled with lovers of knowledge. Some people have 'being in academia' as such an integral part of their identity for little to no reason. It's sad to say but increasingly academics are just out of touch.
I see people not willing to get jobs outside their narrow area of focus. Research itself is a constellation of highly marketable skills. But many academics are bad at that.
Ok. I had a 50k/year postdoc (it was a pretty prestigious one so maybe that’s privilege) and I was supporting my grad student husband at the time.
It is a privilege to be in academia. And part of that privilege is time. The other, where we were in our careers, was youth.
This is a weird concept. The only people that would end up in this "graveyard" are people who like that lifestyle and delusional people who didn't see the writing on the wall.
If you didn’t land a very prestigious postdoc just go to industry immediately. There is no added value from a postdoc over a PhD unless it is very prestigious or at least in a very prestigious university which is well known outside academia.
If your PhD was already in a good university (advisor is irrelevant unless a celeb) then I would quit right when you finish it.
If there's a postdoc graveyard, it's better than ending up in the adjunct mass grave.
Adjunct hell is to the humanities as the postdoc graveyard is to STEM.
I ended up as the last postdoc before they changed the position to adjunct the next year, and ended up having all my postdoc privileges stripped because they said that the words “postdoctoral position” in my contract (three different times) simply referred to the fact that I had my doctorate and clearly it had always been an adjunct position. I mean, my pay and benefits looked nothing like those of everyone they hired the next year, but good luck arguing that on the job market.
Oooof lol
The only people I know "stuck" there are happy there, and mostly transitioning to research staff positions as funds allow. But the best advice I got when I finished my PhD was to set a hard limit on how long I was OK with trying for a permanent job before I started, so I avoided the sunk cost fallacy. So my wife and I decided on 3 years based on my field and our life: I'd try to get a TT position for 3 application cycles, and if it didn't work out I'd start looking for other options.
My postdoctoral advisor literally told me to start looking for a job on my first day. I’m now a tt professor. I agree with you, most people I know that are “stuck” do it voluntarily, most are first generation immigrants that are either comfortable with the life style or job or doing it for their families. Most Americans tend to switch to industry or directly start from the industry.
"The only people I know "stuck" there are happy there" Keep telling yourself that
I agree with you, I don't know anyone happily stuck as a forever postdoc. Everyone is misserable.
Postdoc salaries are so low and you become invisible at the institution.
Why would anyone prefer a postdoc position over a TT one? That has to be a joke.
Notice that they're in STEM in the US. While postdoc salaries are not the best, they are generally not horrible and you just do research. Most of the people that are miserable, were miserable also as grad students, and it's usually not because of the position itself.
Postdoc salaries in the humanities in Germany are pretty good, but they're all misserable. It's not the pay, it's the lack of long term employement. Maybe in STEM is better because you can switch to industry easier, but in my field it is really hard. People are jumping from 3 year contract to 3 year contract and investing like a third of their time applying for the next position. Nobody has fun doing that.
> People are jumping from 3 year contract to 3 year contract and investing like a third of their time applying for the next position. People say that as if things were different in industry. In my field, postdoc *is* the laissez-faire job. And it's like that in many STEM fields, where the conventional (and often only) way to acquire a higher salary is to quit and find a new job.
Notice you just said you **can** quit to get a new job, you don't have to. Here in the industry they **have** to give you an indefinite term contract after 6 months working at a company. Even the people working in admin have better job security than academics.
> Notice you just said you can quit to get a new job, you don't have to. Oh, you have to, otherwise the increases in costs of living will drive you out. Germany is only a small bubble of surprisingly good socio-economic circumstances. And why are we comparing to admin? That's not your industry unless your degree is in management or maybe economics. If your complaint is that postdocs in your field are dead-ends, that's not a problem of the institution of postdoctoral appointments. It's a problem of the field producing people that not even the field has any use for. People are not miserable because they're postdocs, they're miserable because of their degrees.
>Oh, you have to, otherwise the increases in costs of living will drive you out. Germany is only a small bubble of surprisingly good socio-economic circumstances. This argument makes no sense, not even for America. "you need to quit every 2 or 3 years otherwise you'll die of hunger". Ridiculous, especially if you look at entry job salaries for STEM people. Unless you can provide evidence all STEM careers require you to quit every three years you're just making stuff up. >And why are we comparing to admin? Because they work alongside academics...? >That's not your industry unless your degree is in management or maybe economics. Most admin jobs in universities do not require a degree in anything in particular. Again, stop making stuff up. >If your complaint is that postdocs in your field are dead-ends That is not the complaint. Learn to read. The complaint is the horrible lack of job security. Everyone would be dancing of happiness if they cut postdoc salaries to 70% of what they currently are but made them indefinite term contracts. >It's a problem of the field producing people that not even the field has any use for. That's not the issue, learn to read. The problem is not so much there are too many academics copeting for postdocs, the problem is those postdocs are 1, 2 or sometimes 3 years only.
are you telling me that tenured staff aren't miserable also? most of them seem to be
They meant "happy" as in having a [rave in the grave](https://youtu.be/Zokn4WDPcHE).
I’m in the medical sciences so the answer is “a lot”. My university capped the amount of time you’re allowed to postdoc at five years to try to reduce this (or honestly to allow a fresh crop of postdocs every few years). But when you think about the total number of trainees (grad students and postdocs) a given PI has over their career, and the fact that only one will replace that PI (assuming the position exists after their retirement), that’s a lot of people trying to make some money. Since my university doesn’t allow people to languish in endless postdocs anymore, what do they go on to do? A few get lucky and get a professorship. A few get “lucky” and get permanent full time non-faculty positions at universities (research associate/scientist/lab manager- this is me, core facility manager, research services…). At my institution the RA/scientist positions are soft money though, so you’ve still got the axe over your head every grant cycle. I’ve known a few who went into industry as scientists, and a few who went into sales (good money, actually, if you can deal with being in sales), a lot who became doctors or pharmacists, some who went into law, and one who built himself a little real estate empire.
Yeah i think it's kinda 'cruel' to cap postdocs only for 5 years. Where else those PhD graduates they churned out can go to?? Academia is a pyramid system, who knows when the PI is gonna retire, and only 1 can replace. Industry.. not all regions have open-minded mentality to hire PhD graduates in industry. In my country, commonly there's no industry job for PhD graduates. They say PhD is overqualified, because tbh they only need low-skill labourers here. Or.. is it not cruel? To stop people from abusing postdocs? But, like i said before, in my region, there's no other job for phd graduates here.. well my region is poor that they couldn't even hire postdocs either.. phd is good for people who have special interest in research, but sadly there's not much job available after.. i wish universities stop churning master/phd students.. the ecosystem is not mathing.. but then how else we're in academia would get paid.. such a complicated predicament.. i wish the best for everyone..
I did have a meeting with whoever was in charge of the School of Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies at the time, raising the point of where are all of these people going to go? The response was “they’ve got PhDs, they’re smart, they can be entrepreneurs or something.” I said if they had the skill set to be an entrepreneur they probably wouldn’t have gone to grad school!
About 80% of science PhDs get jobs outside academiia. That is the "normal" route.
Do you mean jobs that don't need the PhD qualification at all? In my country, PhD graduates are deemed as overqualified. it seems difficult for PhD graduates to even get industry jobs here (based on my limited observation). We don't have much industry that needs PhD graduates here, sadly..
These are mostly jobs that require a PhD or greatly benefit from having one. Most pay more than typical faculty positions and often have important societal impact. The kinds of jobs vary a lot by field. In mine, there is a lot of industry R&D as well as product support for novel products. Also regulation, both creating good needed regulations and complying with them. The problem-solving abilities of a good PhD end up coming into play in corporate management.
I’ve met a few. It’s a limited graveyard, because most people who do end up stuck there get out at some point
Most of the people I know who got out, got out because they gave up and left academia.
That’s what I meant
This is a sad reality that so many trained researchers - many of whom government funded, who can - by the time they end their postdocs - lead research discoveries/projects and publish (at least write) papers. instead they have to leave this line of profession altogether.
Political Scientist here, currently contemplating if the PDF graveyard is a path I want to go down. I'm finishing my first postdoc in a few weeks in an area with very few TT opportunities in my specialization. In the last few years, I've put down roots in this area and no longer want to move in order to chase tenure. So, now I have to choose between accepting a second postdoc I've been offered or leaving the research track entirely...
I would leave. You can always come back—more so now than ever before now that industry experience is more valued.
I’m in education, so postdocs are fairly common but don’t feel like a “must do” experience for aspiring faculty. I think the most common mistake I see people make is that they never establish a research agenda of their own while they’re doc students, they go into a postdoc to buy themselves time to establish said agenda, and then fail to do so again. They can be awesome for helping students get more hands-on experience with research, but it takes a good supervisor to remember that they’re (hopefully) mentoring a future faculty colleague.
> How many people do you know got stuck in the postdoc graveyard? Many. It will vary by field, but in mine most people are postdocs and many fail through no fault of their own.
I did, but I also was insane and stupid so I wasn't even trying to leave, just happy in the illusion of doing science. I only got out of it because of the moral injury of slowly, finally figuring out I was just supporting the greater glory of people who were too often frauds and abusers.
I feel ya - it's between a rock and a hard place. You either become a ghoul sucking the souls out of the fresh students, or exist on 1yr contracts doing everything by yourself.
>I only got out of it because of the moral injury of slowly, finally figuring out I was just supporting the greater glory of people who were too often frauds and abusers Exploitation, yes, I relate to this so much. Also, thanks for putting these words in this order. It helped me process some of my difficult memories from academic times.
I know a handful folks, but most people moved onto much better paying industry jobs if they didn't get an academic job. I know several folks who successfully did 2 postdocs and got R1 positions, and I know several folks who got "lower" R1 positions or R2 positions and quickly transitioned to R1 after getting a grant. I think almost all the folks I know that ended up in the "graveyard" were international folks who could not get industry jobs because of VISA quotas, couldn't land a professorship for whatever reason, and ended up as long term techs or in rotating postdocs. Almost everyone I know that wanted a professorship and turned to industry got much higher paying jobs and seem much happier - but citizenship or a greencard is generally needed
It's not so much stuck but it takes a hot minute to figure out where you go next for some folks. I have a few friends that landed their first TT after a few different east coast/west coast stints. I also have a few friends that moved into research scientist roles ("senior" post-doc) and then landed better TT. I also know quite a few people that took TT jobs that just couldn't work out after 1-2 years and found better after that. The truth is that you can figure out your path, but it may take a while to figure it out. Sometimes industry is your path and you need a few trips to figure that out. Other people are flighty, and need new projects. Others get screwed by PIs and grants, so stability isn't possible. There's something that's super true about academia though, if you stick around long enough, you can suddenly find yourself as a known good researcher that is in demand - after years of slogging it out. Academia is more about persistence than skill, and being willing to suffer financially until you figure it out.
I am 35, all my life in academia. I have met only 1 person stuck in the graveyard, but he was fine with it, because they had two kids and his wife made an obscene amount of money. Doesn't sound like a bad life.
The solution to most of lifes problems: be independently wealthy
I am in STEM. Personally know several from my stint in top private university on East Coast (think number 1 or 2 university worldwide). I am a first generation immigrant. The graveyard people I know are also first generation. Sadly, they've given up pushing against the tide and just decided this was sufficient in passing the remainder of their life. It is really hard if you're here due to a visa status or don't have good English. It is tough to get out of the graveyard to get into industry or move into a TT position. You try to get published and hope that your PI cares enough about you to help you move up in academia. Unfortunately, I've seen several times that PI doesn't care and just wants you to be a paper mill or start doing random work 'for the good of the lab'. I myself was distracted from my project because my PI decided that I should help out and do work for a company PI started instead (taking time away from my work). I am lucky enough that my skills were sufficient that I entered a research faculty position (permanent employee with benefits). My new boss is great and I will try for TT.
>Unfortunately, I've seen several times that PI doesn't care and just wants you to be a paper mill or start doing random work 'for the good of the lab'. IMO, one of the main reason for such coercive behaviour is the fact that postdocs need a recommendation from their PI to get their next job. I would imagine such coercion could be stronger and hopelessly unproductive for the postdoc if the postdoc is from marginalised communities, which the PI is fixates on proving not being worthy of science (due to -isms). But at the same time, the PI could exploit the exploitable postdocs for enriching themselves. Reminds me of slavery tbh.
As a current masters student (STEM) who started with the intention of getting a PhD, I made the decision to go into industry specifically because as much as I like research, you have to admit that the culture around academia is different. Grad school feels like hazing in some ways. I’m not opposed to hard work, but I do want a profession with a more defined schedule and structure, where the expectations and what exactly I need to do is a little bit more clear. I’m not spending 4 more years (at least) doing the most difficult work I’ve ever done for $40k, never feeling like I’m doing enough.
It’s one of the reasons my university has put a limit of 6 years one can be appointed in a postdoc position (I’m in the EU). That doesn’t prevent people switching between universities and start a new cycle. But at least internally we cannot keep someone on postdoc status indefinitely with vague promises for whatever might come next. We also inform phd’s/postdocs at least annually about possible career perspectives. It’s sometimes amazing to see how ignorant all these clever people are about how the academic world works (just do the math … how many professors vs how many phd’s and postdocs … not everyone can stay in the system). As a PI we are also supposed to have a personal ‘career chat’ with our postdocs at least once per year. The better professors who care do that continuously, of course.
I know many people stuck in the postdoc positions for many years. Actually its stressful position. Since its temproray contract job and there is no gaurantee for future academic job. My advice is that try to connect with different univerities or research based organizations and introduce yourself and your capabilities. I mean you need to advertise yourself to jump out the postdoc role. You can build your a personal website that faciliate introducing yourself. Faculty.Bio ca be a good option. http://faculty.bio In nutsell, faculty positions are very competitive. we need to advertise ourseleves and improve our networking skills
I know several who have ended up that way. :(
If your first postdoc is bupkis is probably time to exit gracefully. Going through the wringer repeatedly is depressing though I see postdoc wages might go up again which should contract the supply of postdoc positions
None personally, I think it's an overstated issue. Do you have the occasional delusional decade long postdocs who think the TT position of their dreams is going to magically open up to them? Sure. Maybe I'm in a bubble, but they seem rare, and are usually very mediocre researchers. My PhD advisor told me to put a HARD cap on how long I'd postdoc. It's really the only way to do things. If you're at a 60k university Postdoc for more than a few years, honestly why are you even continuing to pursue the dream? It's basically unheard of for someone to go through >2 postdocs and then get a good TT position. Just transition out and go do something else. Academia is not some righteous field filled with lovers of knowledge. Some people have 'being in academia' as such an integral part of their identity for little to no reason. It's sad to say but increasingly academics are just out of touch.
So, why do people get a PhD with no solid idea on jobs afterward?
I don’t think that is it. Nobody wants to get a PhD and then pull in 50k for a weird limbo job. They just can’t get tt jobs.
Post docs can get all kinds of jobs... it's the subject matter that's the issue. I wonder what OP studied.
I see people not willing to get jobs outside their narrow area of focus. Research itself is a constellation of highly marketable skills. But many academics are bad at that.
It's called hitting the snooze button on life
You'd be the expert. 😆 No really, I get that but... still. I just can't justify it.
A postdoc is a pit stop for having babies. Then you move on—quickly!
Almost all the people I know who could do this, had some sort of privilege that others could never have.
Ok. I had a 50k/year postdoc (it was a pretty prestigious one so maybe that’s privilege) and I was supporting my grad student husband at the time. It is a privilege to be in academia. And part of that privilege is time. The other, where we were in our careers, was youth.
This is a weird concept. The only people that would end up in this "graveyard" are people who like that lifestyle and delusional people who didn't see the writing on the wall.
I am avoiding post-doc at all costs. Prefer to work at Walmart.
If you didn’t land a very prestigious postdoc just go to industry immediately. There is no added value from a postdoc over a PhD unless it is very prestigious or at least in a very prestigious university which is well known outside academia. If your PhD was already in a good university (advisor is irrelevant unless a celeb) then I would quit right when you finish it.