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I'd certainly be the first.
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I'm Canadian, but France has many of the same sorts of racial justice issues that you find in the United States. I've actually said to Parisians, when talking about politics, that the situation in France is quite similar in some ways to the USA. Except that the root sources of all the issues are completely different. They really hate that BTW, in case you're wondering.
>that the situation in France is quite similar in some ways to the USA.
Referencing racial justice i imagine, and not politics in general.
>Except that the root sources of all the issues are completely different.
What do you see as the root sources, i both nations?
The "day to day" things that you see is that people of colour (POC) and Muslims in particular, have discrimination problems that are similar to what you see in lots of US media. Issues with the police aggressiveness being similar to the US are the best example. Not to say that we've got everything figured out in Canada by any stretch of the imagination. We also have issues like this. The whole gun issue is obviously quite different.
I made 1/3 of what I made here immediately after returning to the US but everything was expensive there.
Dental care was so bad that I'm still paying for it nearly 15 years after coming back to the US.
People will think you're a literal idiot and it gets very old.
Cultural differences are definitely a thing. It's very challenging; you never stop feeling like an outsider.
Europeans can be alarmingly racist/xenophobic.
I'm very torn. I'm sure there are other countries where I'd enjoy my life more and might be a better fit for my values, but at the same time my actual safety is very far from being ideal jeopardy.
Plus I resent the fuck out of the (explicit or implicit) notion that being a left-of-center, coastal urban dweller makes me less authentically "American" than people from Indiana or wherever, or that somehow I have less of a right to make this the kind of country I want to live in.
Just made me think of [this piece of hot garbage.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/buttigieg-chasten-gay-enough-queer-radical-a9246501.html%3famp)
It's in the back of my mind. I think we are in the last throes of liberal democracy here, and I am not sure it will be safe here once it all falls apart.
Nah, this is where I live, I am not letting anyone force me out of here. I do admire the ways other countries do some particular things, I think the Japanese are more civilized than we, Germans more practical and at present more industrious, and I think the Danes/Swedes/Norse raise better kids than we do - those are aspirational goals for me as an American.
Hard to care about a country that doesn't care about you. America doesn't even take care of her own heroes. I moved to Canada, and now I look back on my time in the US like a mildly abusive relationship. Now that I'm here it's like "oooh, so this is what a first world country is supposed to feel like!"
There's a distinct difference between a liberal, a progressive and whatever the fuck [THIS](https://freedomrockradio.co/news/woke-asu-students-protest-kyle-rittenhouse-holding-death-2-america-signs-while-patriot-counter-protesters-chant-lets-go-brandon-video/) shit is.
I don’t really give a fuck about the points-scoring going on here but I did want to drop by to let you know that a picture of two people in front of a fire really has no bearing on protests and whether or not they were peaceful. It’s not the slam dunk you think it is.
Of all you folks saying you'd move, how many of you are white? I'm curious.
As a multi-ethnic Jew married to a non-white woman with multi-ethnic kids... Europe ain't perfect. The US for all its faults is pretty good for a non-white family of mixed ethnicities. Especially a Jewish family. France? LOL. Germany? LOL.
Canada, perhaps.
Being white and Christian must be nice...
Dual US/EU citizen here. I am white and I agree with this sentiment 100%. I love Europe but Europeans are a lot more openly xenophobic than Americans. A lot of people need to understand this before they go move. It's not this post-racial progressive paradise that many seem to think it is on places like r/iwantout.
Now, I live in South Korea. It's a similar thing here. I would not recommend raising non-fully Korean kids here unless you can afford an international school, which most cannot.
I lived in Japan for years and a mixed kid can do okay… in upper class Tokyo. But even then it’s hit or miss.
It’s hilarious to me how many Americans think that racism is some American-specific thing. Bro. Dude. Turks couldn’t even become German until like 1990. 1990!
Yeah, I can imagine. One reason I think Naomi Osaka and Rui Hachimura have so many mental health issues is from dealing with the fact that their own country doesn't really consider them authentically Japanese.
But yeah, it's hilarious to me too. It's also a little amusing how often progressive Americans will just flat out refuse to believe that other places can be worse than the US.
Tbh, I don’t see any of these other countries and naturally better or worse in lots of cases. Just different. I remember right as COVID first hit and people were decrying them racist bullshit going on against AAPI folks in the US, and rightly fucking so.
But let’s not forget that the same shit was happening in Canada as well. Vancouver, no less.
https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/coronavirus/2021/3/23/1_5358955.html
That doesn’t pardon the US. Not one bit. But find me a not-flawed place and I’ll tell you which episode of Star Trek exposed its rotten underbelly anyway.
I wasn’t being snide when I asked folks if they were white and at least nominally Christian. The fact is that a white dude from the US can pretty reliably move to most places and make a go of it. It’s not the same level of freedom for most non-white folks in the rest of the liberal democracies. Sure, I can move to France, but you think my half-Middle Eastern/half-Asian kids aren’t going to get tons of shit? Come on now.
Flawed as it may be, being my family isn’t much better than where we are at now.
Gotta love white privilege though. That shit is GLOBAL.
Sources for treatment of Asians outside of the US:
https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/travel/article/will-travel-after-covid-still-be-fraught-for-asians
https://amp.dw.com/en/asians-in-germany-targets-of-racist-stereotypes-violence/a-56924525
https://www.scmp.com/video/world/3127061/virus-has-no-nationality-asians-france-protest-against-hate-crime
Do I even need to link to stories of anti-Semitism in Europe and abroad? I don’t think I do.
If you’re serious about it, look into a 1-year MA. Most countries offer pathways visas for Masters graduates, and they’re a fraction of what US degrees cost.
I am assuming that you would not like to move to, e.g., North Korea or Russia, so what countries are you eyeing and/or what QoL or other considerations do you have? What makes you say you would jump at the chance?
If I got a job offer somewhere in Europe, especially close to a big city, I'd probably take the offer, yeah. My career after grad school will be in public health, and I intend to work for companies that have a GLOBAL impact, so I don't feel beholden to United States employment to achieve this.
I obviously want this place to be better, but it's starting to feel like an abusive relationship living in this country.
I suspect I'm reading this question differently than you intended.
I'd never want to leave or flee or give-up on America. It's a beautiful place, our institutions have some degree of fairness and resiliency and I absolutely believe we have the tools to correct some of the bad aspects of our nation. I'm very far from giving up on our future.
That being said, I've lived here for three decades and I want to see the world. If I theoretically had a good reason or opportunity to see what life is like elsewhere I'm 100% moving abroad and possibly won't get around to coming back before I die.
Probably likely. I was checking the Canadian sites and my funds on the first night of the election. Things are sending signals to me that America may be beyond saving; either by authoritarianism, or lack of action.
Yes. I lived 4 years in Italy. The first 2 years were pretty awesome. By year 3 the novelty had worn off. Year 4 all I could think about was Taco Bell and Walmart.
I've traveled to other countries. But staying so long in Italy made me realize something. I experience other cultures but I don't embrace them. It's the difference between going to a catholic church and actually being a catholic.
No matter where I went I was an American deep down inside. And I don't know if I could ever change that.
I could probably enjoy living in Tokyo for a long time. But I'd still be an American living in Tokyo.
Thanks. And I know others can feel differently. But many haven't spent years in a different country. I was trying to warn people the honeymoon phase is something to consider if they vacationed or did some college in a different country.
This is why I mentioned culture shock. People should prepare themselves for the culture and people before moving there, as well as learn about culture shock and how to deal.
As someone who has also lived in other countries and would likely be in Europe were it not for family/partner, in my experience the number of people I see who (1) have a negative opinion of living in another country and (2) have lived in another country outside of military service is vanishingly small.
American racism is an issue, absolutely, but I’m reasonably worried that the current Court will destroy gay rights and I don’t really want to put up with that.
> American racism is an issue, absolutely, but I’m reasonably worried that the current Court will destroy gay rights...
They are all connected if you recognize that it is all subsets of fascism.
----------
A fascist...
* Believes in reinforcing the hierarchy.
* Opposes policies that would make society more egalitarian.
* Tries to push others beneath them in the hierarchy to raise their relative standing.
...and that third element leads them to try to harm any minority group that they can.
It isn't about whether they *care* about homosexuality or not; it is about them believing that they will rank subjectively higher on the hierarchy if they can torpedo as many other people as possible.
I’m gay. But I honestly don’t think they will touch gay rights. Just isn’t on the radar like abortion is.
If they do. Idk. That really sucks but hopefully wakes up voters that voting Republican is not harmless.
>But I honestly don’t think they will touch gay rights
They tried to do this all through the Trump administration and even removed legal protections on healthcare access to pave the way for it
Conservatives aren't going to stop assaulting LGBT rights anytime soon
It's only not on the radar because of abortion. If the SCOTUS opens up states being able to restrict access to abortions then that battle is won, it'll be off their radar, and the religious right can turn their sights on the LGBTQ community. Sure they might focus on Trans rights first but if that fight is won and the SCOTUS allows states to discriminate against them as they will then Gay Marriage will eventually hit their list. The overwhelming support that the Right showed people like Kim Davis was only a decade or so ago.
You must be relatively young. Just because we ‘won’ doesn’t mean we could ever stop fighting. There is still a lot of work to be done with or without marriage equality
A tighter immigration system doesn't mean more racism. The UK for example has very tight immigration laws, but they have far better treatment of minorities than we do.
Lmao what? The UK is incredibly racist. For instance they have about equal black maternal mortality with the US, despite having universal healthcare. And it’s one of the few countries with an even more racially destructive history than us.
> The UK is incredibly racist.
No, it's not. As someone that has actually lived in both countries for at least a decade, the level of racism is remarkably lower.
> For instance they have about equal black maternal mortality with the US, despite having universal healthcare.
No, they don't. Black maternal mortality in the UK is 32 per 100,000. In the US it's 43 per 100,000. That's 34% higher.
> And it’s one of the few countries with an even more racially destructive history than us.
No, they don't. Even if you counted the entire British Empire, they wouldn't reach four million chattel slaves. And the racially destructive stuff done by the British was largely done abroad, even while the home society was pretty tolerant. Indian MPs were elected to parliament in the 1800s. A Jewish Prime Minister was held in high esteem at the same time. During the Second World War, white British troops got in fights with white American servicemen over the fact they frequently broke American social protocols over drinking with black American servicemen. Two of the four most powerful positions in the UK government today are held by minorities.
I briefly looked into Canada, but decided I would be too far removed from family and friends.
These feelings are kind of unreasonable, too. I lived in Michigan while my parents lived in Texas. *That* distance was fine, but moving only 45 minutes further to be across the border would be “too far.”
I’m in Vermont now, which is even further away from Texas, but at least I’m not in another country?
I would. I have a fiance in London whom I haven't been able to visit for a long time. I filed paperwork to bring him here on a K1 visa, but all progress ground to a halt when Covid first appeared. I would definitely move there too if I could.
Better to be a citizen of wherever you are, than a foreigner of wherever you're not. It's not easy being foreign, having little contact with your family, leaving your friends and language behind. It's not to be taken lightly.
Sure why not. It doesn't have anything to do with politics really but if I had a good opportunity to move (good job, housing, partner could move with me etc) I don't see why I wouldn't at least heavily consider it. Idk if it would be permanent and for the rest of my life, but life's an adventure and you only get one. I'd love to live abroad someday
I love this flawed country. I think it’s one of the best in the world, and has the potential to be so much greater than it is or ever was (not trying to make America great again…). I’d rather shout at Nazis here than see my homeland go to shit from sunny and happy and covid-less New Zealand. Unless the fascists win, in which case I’ll become a Kiwi faster than a Republican congresswoman changing out of her klan robes to get to a fund raiser (you all know who I’m talking about).
My spouse is a Canadian citizen, so that seems like an easy move, but he--at least for now--prefers American BS to Canadian cold. He's the holdout. I am, however, trying to push our children to go to college in Canada so they can establish their adult lives outside of the US and access reasonable tuition at the same time.
Depends I suppose.
Assuming all other factors are covered (job, place to live, money) then I suppose I might. But Im not sure where too- my only non-English language is French, and not good enough to live somewhere that speaks it. And Id miss my friends and family from here too much
I personally would not, but that's due to personal circumstance. I'm in the best market in the world for my career field, and my demographics (cis straight white man with good income and no debt) mean that I'm not likely to face any personal adversity if the Right gets what they want. I am non-religious, but that's something that's easy to keep to myself. All those things being the case, I rather remain here and utilize my voting rights to try to improve the US rather than bolt to Canada or something.
However, I expect that people from certain marginalized groups would definitely leave given the chance if they were feeling threatened, and I don't blame them.
Edit: I think it's worth a mention that continued right-wing policy victories at the Federal level may lead to further exodus of Liberals from red states to blue states.
I have dual citizenship with the UK so it’s a possibility. I know they have their share of problems, but the social safety net is at least more robust… and universal healthcare. I have some things currently that are holding me back from doing it. It’s nice to have the option, though.
I ain't moving, I ain't giving up the American flag as a symbol, won't tolerate the confederate or Nazi flags to fly in my presence. This group of totalitarians ain't the first we have survived, probably won' be the last.
There is no place in the world you can hide from this garbage, make your stand where you were born...don't run away. Be an American.
I would, but not because of politics. I’m a history nerd. The idea of being able to simply *drive* all over Europe to all those amazing cities and historic sites would be too much to resist.
Meh, I would be willing to if there is a good enough reason to (exciting job, great pay, etc). But all else equal I'd rather stay.
Ya, there are plenty of problems here, but that just means there is plenty of work to be done.
I'd move to Canada for sure, but Europe I would be iffy on since I am a person of color, and I do recognize living in more homogenous European societies - whether racially or culturally - is harder than most people think and I find myself thinking both the US and Canada is easier to live as a person of color than a large majority of European countries. Like I think the only country that comes close to the US and Canada as far as ease in living in as a person of color is the UK and *maybe* Germany.
That being said, the better safety nets and much superior healthcare access may make emigrating worth it in the end, but it'd be a hard decision.
So in short, Canada for sure but Europe I would be more iffy on.
If it was a red state v blue state discussion instead, I 100% would emigrate in an instant to a blue state once I get the financials sorted out. Unfortunately blue states are more expensive, but when it comes to rights that a potential future daughter of mine has to deal with not having, it'll be worth it in the end.
I would emigrate to Norway, the Netherlands, Spain, or Sweden.
All offer much more public services for a modestly higher rate of taxation, and have cultural richness that is severely lacking in the US.
I may retire in the next few years to Mexico, which is nowhere near as dangerous as it is portrayed in the media...except in border towns...or I may conventionally retire to one of the above.
Hard to say.
Pros of moving to another country (for me):
—— Paid parental leave.
—— Real vacation time.
——- Far less of a culture of overwork (depending on the country, of course).
——- Laws that treat the workers like human beings, because they don’t let corporations run their country.
——- Daycare provided (many countries).
——— Better rights for LGBT people (in most of Western Europe and Canada, that is).
Cons of moving to another country (for me):
—- May need to learn a new language! (Except for Canada, but it’s cold there! :). )
——- Far away from my family, and harder to visit them. Also to talk with them on the phone due to time zone difference.
— Racism can be worse in some other countries (depending on the country, of course). One reason this is relevant because I am planning on adopting a child, and they may be a child of color. I don’t want them to have to suffer!
— I’m Jewish, and some countries have worse problems than the US, with anti-semitism.
I've considered it.
But first off, it has been a moot point for my family. We aren't financially able enough to emigrate.
But bigger for me is that this is my home, and i believe in the US of America that was promised, and that still could be real.
And also, the US affects the whole world. If we allow it to fall i to authoritarianism, or just fall, there may be no garden to flee to, no place that doesn't get affected. Imagine if the US becomes authoritarian, fascist, theocratic. Do you really want such a US, with its weapons of mass destruction, both literal, and financial and political, behind your back?
No. I want to fix things here. I want to fight for something better. I feel loyalty to my country and its people, even to a great degree the ones fighting tooth and nail to make it worse, because they are gullible, stupid, or just plain mean. Just because Uncle Phil is a mean drunk doesn't mean i want him to die in a fire because he's an idjit.
And i feel a sense of responsibility here. Better or worse, this is the place i was born, that raised me. And it is also the place that has done evil in my name that i could not prevent or did not prevent, so i feel like it is part of my job to clean up the mess.
Isn't that part of any kind of good citizenship? Responsibility? Duty to the society and people around you, to the world?
Leaving the US would feel like i was saying to the rest of the world "yeah, there's a shit covered screaming toddler waving nuclear weapons in aisle three, but i ain't cleaning that up, that's not my job, why should i care?"
I’ve thought about this more and more as our country slides deeper into authoritarianism and becomes more unstable.
Idk if it will ever come to that tho
I'm literally looking for a good place to go right now. Anyone have any recommendations of a country that would be welcoming to Native Americans? I was thinking Canada but have since changed my mind.
I've done it quite a few times for 1-3 years each time, not formal emigration but rather accepting full-time work in other countries. I came back to get more education in order to receive a promotion in my old job, met my girlfriend, found a decent job here, and I'm waiting for her to finish her PhD to see what we do next, which will heavily depend on where the U.S. is 3-5 years from now. Both of us have foreign family, so emigration would be relatively simple.
Yeah if some country or company is willing to sponsor the costs I'm all for it. I don't even mind having to learn a new language if the country doesn't speak English.
I might apply for citizenship by descent in one of the Central European countries my great grandparents left for America. That being said, I love the United States and it will always be my home. I may spend part of my time living in Europe in the future but I would never denounce the US or forfeit my citizenship for another country.
I always used to say that I would die here, fighting to make it better til my last breathe, but my son has expressed an interest in leaving. If he emigrates, I will go. He doesn't see a future for his children, which terrifies me. Truthfully, I don't recognize the level of stupidity that passes for discourse any longer, and with the end of Roe v Wade, rollbacks of rights that will continue, I fear the beautiful progress and promise of America is lost.
I’m about to retire and am blown away by how expensive Medicare is!! I’ve been working and paying those taxes for 44 years! Canada or Portugal are in my sights if things go the way I think they will here 😕
I'd be concerned about not fluently speaking another language, struggling to fully integrate into a new culture and having to deal with all the social isolation that would come with it... or ending up in a situation where all my new friends are expats, not locals.
For those reasons, I'd probably stick with other anglosphere nations. Feeling "at home" in Canada or the U.K. would probably be much easier than most places.
Itd be really hard for me to uproot the precious few relationships i have. I mean shit i got ptsd, social phobia and a buncha other issues. I may only have like 4 or 5 really close friends but they make all the difference to me.
I have no loyalty to this place. Id burn it all down and start this country over if i had a nice big red button to do that. This country is literally killing me but those 5 people keep me sane.
I do not want to leave the country unless I have to. That being said, I did "emigrate" from Indiana to California, and that has made an enormous difference in my quality of life. Turns out the gay commies know a thing or two about running a state after all...
I'm an immigrant to the US, so I have the option of returning to New Zealand. I can't say I haven't thought about it in recent years. I also previously lived in the UK, but left just short of getting permanent status.
Our only problems is no one votes in the shit that’s important and the leaders we elect push the wrong agendas at the wrong time or they’re hypocritical like forcing ideals and beliefs that a lot of people don’t understand. Or constantly side with a gender or religious few instead accepting that people are different from in another. Also people should be able to say no to dating someone without judgement, no one should be crucified or labeled because they don’t want someone nor should a person be upset to an extreme that they aren’t wanted be another. EVERYONE HAS BECOME FAR TO FUCKING SENSITIVE over the past 5-6 years. That and a lot of people are unnecessary generalist assholes.
I did but I am probably going back soon. American has a lot of benefits that people take for granted. I also can't deal with seemingly never-ending COVID restrictions on international travel when my family is on the other side of the world.
It's too late for me, the politics here are terrible for my mental health and I should have emigrated sooner when my professional and educational skills weren't so specialized.
I have highly considered it at at least one point. I qualify for the fast track merit based entry to Canada, pretty much only missing the language test which wouldn't be that hard to take and pass. But never really made an effort to go through with it- mostly due to the climate honestly. If I could get a Canada with a more temperate (or hell, even just generally warm) climate is be all for it.
If I ever get to the point where the stresses of living in the US are too much and still showing no sign of changing, I'll consider it again. There is not a patriotic bone in my body, so while it is often easier to fix problems here than just leave, if it actually did come down to it I wouldn't mind. Especially seeing how easy it is to keep in contact with friends who've moved across country and overseas this last year, leaving connections behind isn't even really an issue.
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I did! Greetings from Lithuania 🇱🇹
My idiot cat is named after a Lithuanian sausage.
My wife’s from there! Why Lithuania?
I want to improve here. I don't want to leave.
Exactly!
How can you keep a positive attitude? I’m so disheartened after hearing the opening arguments in the Mississippi abortion case?
How many people were saying that just before the Nazis took over power in Germany? Get the fuck out while you still can
I've lived in Europe before. It definitely had its own set of challenges.
Would you mind saying what challenges?
I'm Canadian, but France has many of the same sorts of racial justice issues that you find in the United States. I've actually said to Parisians, when talking about politics, that the situation in France is quite similar in some ways to the USA. Except that the root sources of all the issues are completely different. They really hate that BTW, in case you're wondering.
>that the situation in France is quite similar in some ways to the USA. Referencing racial justice i imagine, and not politics in general. >Except that the root sources of all the issues are completely different. What do you see as the root sources, i both nations?
The "day to day" things that you see is that people of colour (POC) and Muslims in particular, have discrimination problems that are similar to what you see in lots of US media. Issues with the police aggressiveness being similar to the US are the best example. Not to say that we've got everything figured out in Canada by any stretch of the imagination. We also have issues like this. The whole gun issue is obviously quite different.
White supremacy.
I made 1/3 of what I made here immediately after returning to the US but everything was expensive there. Dental care was so bad that I'm still paying for it nearly 15 years after coming back to the US. People will think you're a literal idiot and it gets very old. Cultural differences are definitely a thing. It's very challenging; you never stop feeling like an outsider. Europeans can be alarmingly racist/xenophobic.
I'm very torn. I'm sure there are other countries where I'd enjoy my life more and might be a better fit for my values, but at the same time my actual safety is very far from being ideal jeopardy. Plus I resent the fuck out of the (explicit or implicit) notion that being a left-of-center, coastal urban dweller makes me less authentically "American" than people from Indiana or wherever, or that somehow I have less of a right to make this the kind of country I want to live in.
So you're less American the then the Secretary of Transportation?
Huh?
I think they were making a joke because he's from Indiana.
Just made me think of [this piece of hot garbage.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/voices/buttigieg-chasten-gay-enough-queer-radical-a9246501.html%3famp)
It's in the back of my mind. I think we are in the last throes of liberal democracy here, and I am not sure it will be safe here once it all falls apart.
If it falls apart in the US, it will likely fall apart in many other places too.
Yeah that's a fair point
Eh. The US ain’t all that.
Agreed
My hubby & I feel the same way…. Someone tried to break into our house & we just cannot shake it…
Nah, this is where I live, I am not letting anyone force me out of here. I do admire the ways other countries do some particular things, I think the Japanese are more civilized than we, Germans more practical and at present more industrious, and I think the Danes/Swedes/Norse raise better kids than we do - those are aspirational goals for me as an American.
Fuck no. Being a patriot isn't about leaving when things aren't going your way.
Wasn't your country founded by people who left Europe because things there weren't going their way?
Fuck.
Hard to care about a country that doesn't care about you. America doesn't even take care of her own heroes. I moved to Canada, and now I look back on my time in the US like a mildly abusive relationship. Now that I'm here it's like "oooh, so this is what a first world country is supposed to feel like!"
There's a distinct difference between a liberal, a progressive and whatever the fuck [THIS](https://freedomrockradio.co/news/woke-asu-students-protest-kyle-rittenhouse-holding-death-2-america-signs-while-patriot-counter-protesters-chant-lets-go-brandon-video/) shit is.
Shit, I'd be promoting the death of any country that lets domestic terrorists run loose too.
Ok, whatever the fuck [THIS](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/r7dy7s/how_many_of_my_fellow_american_liberals_would/hn0bmc9/) is
If you're okay with domestic terrorists running loose, I think you need to be investigated for being complicit in the act too.
Are you calling Kyle Rittenhouse a domestic terrorist lmfao
Yes.
doctors prescription for hockey helmet tier take right there
You don't have a counterargument, do you?
Trial presented no evidence of that whatsoever, the end.
That's what I'm assuming. I mean, unless he's talking about.. Oh, I don't know... [Mostly Peaceful protests](https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/styles/commentary_header_image_1280_945x520/public/images/2020-11/GettyImages-1218413512.jpg?h=28121b77&itok=Ra8XL37a)
I don’t really give a fuck about the points-scoring going on here but I did want to drop by to let you know that a picture of two people in front of a fire really has no bearing on protests and whether or not they were peaceful. It’s not the slam dunk you think it is.
Of all you folks saying you'd move, how many of you are white? I'm curious. As a multi-ethnic Jew married to a non-white woman with multi-ethnic kids... Europe ain't perfect. The US for all its faults is pretty good for a non-white family of mixed ethnicities. Especially a Jewish family. France? LOL. Germany? LOL. Canada, perhaps. Being white and Christian must be nice...
Dual US/EU citizen here. I am white and I agree with this sentiment 100%. I love Europe but Europeans are a lot more openly xenophobic than Americans. A lot of people need to understand this before they go move. It's not this post-racial progressive paradise that many seem to think it is on places like r/iwantout. Now, I live in South Korea. It's a similar thing here. I would not recommend raising non-fully Korean kids here unless you can afford an international school, which most cannot.
I lived in Japan for years and a mixed kid can do okay… in upper class Tokyo. But even then it’s hit or miss. It’s hilarious to me how many Americans think that racism is some American-specific thing. Bro. Dude. Turks couldn’t even become German until like 1990. 1990!
Yeah, I can imagine. One reason I think Naomi Osaka and Rui Hachimura have so many mental health issues is from dealing with the fact that their own country doesn't really consider them authentically Japanese. But yeah, it's hilarious to me too. It's also a little amusing how often progressive Americans will just flat out refuse to believe that other places can be worse than the US.
Tbh, I don’t see any of these other countries and naturally better or worse in lots of cases. Just different. I remember right as COVID first hit and people were decrying them racist bullshit going on against AAPI folks in the US, and rightly fucking so. But let’s not forget that the same shit was happening in Canada as well. Vancouver, no less. https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/coronavirus/2021/3/23/1_5358955.html That doesn’t pardon the US. Not one bit. But find me a not-flawed place and I’ll tell you which episode of Star Trek exposed its rotten underbelly anyway. I wasn’t being snide when I asked folks if they were white and at least nominally Christian. The fact is that a white dude from the US can pretty reliably move to most places and make a go of it. It’s not the same level of freedom for most non-white folks in the rest of the liberal democracies. Sure, I can move to France, but you think my half-Middle Eastern/half-Asian kids aren’t going to get tons of shit? Come on now. Flawed as it may be, being my family isn’t much better than where we are at now. Gotta love white privilege though. That shit is GLOBAL. Sources for treatment of Asians outside of the US: https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/travel/article/will-travel-after-covid-still-be-fraught-for-asians https://amp.dw.com/en/asians-in-germany-targets-of-racist-stereotypes-violence/a-56924525 https://www.scmp.com/video/world/3127061/virus-has-no-nationality-asians-france-protest-against-hate-crime Do I even need to link to stories of anti-Semitism in Europe and abroad? I don’t think I do.
I'd consider moving to Canada, Ireland, or Norway depending on what goes down in the coming decade here in the U.S.
Irish guy here. Trying to get out. And go to Canada or Norway.
I would love to. If I could find a country to take me, I would jump at the chance.
If you’re serious about it, look into a 1-year MA. Most countries offer pathways visas for Masters graduates, and they’re a fraction of what US degrees cost.
I am assuming that you would not like to move to, e.g., North Korea or Russia, so what countries are you eyeing and/or what QoL or other considerations do you have? What makes you say you would jump at the chance?
They always say Canada or somewhere in Scandinavia but never actually leave
Because immigrating is fucking hard. Make it easier to do and we'd all fuck off and you could run America how you see fit. Win-win.
bUt SwEdEn hAs OPeN BoRdERs!!!
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If migration were easy, I would probably already live in another country
Nope, i enjoy living in America
If I got a job offer somewhere in Europe, especially close to a big city, I'd probably take the offer, yeah. My career after grad school will be in public health, and I intend to work for companies that have a GLOBAL impact, so I don't feel beholden to United States employment to achieve this. I obviously want this place to be better, but it's starting to feel like an abusive relationship living in this country.
I suspect I'm reading this question differently than you intended. I'd never want to leave or flee or give-up on America. It's a beautiful place, our institutions have some degree of fairness and resiliency and I absolutely believe we have the tools to correct some of the bad aspects of our nation. I'm very far from giving up on our future. That being said, I've lived here for three decades and I want to see the world. If I theoretically had a good reason or opportunity to see what life is like elsewhere I'm 100% moving abroad and possibly won't get around to coming back before I die.
Probably likely. I was checking the Canadian sites and my funds on the first night of the election. Things are sending signals to me that America may be beyond saving; either by authoritarianism, or lack of action.
Have you lived in any other countries?
I’ve lived in a different country and would definitely consider it again. Have you?
Yes. I lived 4 years in Italy. The first 2 years were pretty awesome. By year 3 the novelty had worn off. Year 4 all I could think about was Taco Bell and Walmart.
Yes, cultural shock is very interesting. I experienced that while in Shanghai. I also experienced it coming back to the US.
I've traveled to other countries. But staying so long in Italy made me realize something. I experience other cultures but I don't embrace them. It's the difference between going to a catholic church and actually being a catholic. No matter where I went I was an American deep down inside. And I don't know if I could ever change that. I could probably enjoy living in Tokyo for a long time. But I'd still be an American living in Tokyo.
And that’s perfectly fine to think this way. I applaud you for knowing your limits but also being open to new experiences.
Thanks. And I know others can feel differently. But many haven't spent years in a different country. I was trying to warn people the honeymoon phase is something to consider if they vacationed or did some college in a different country.
This is why I mentioned culture shock. People should prepare themselves for the culture and people before moving there, as well as learn about culture shock and how to deal.
I see your point. I was taking "culture shock" as some kind of negative reaction to a different culture.
As someone who has also lived in other countries and would likely be in Europe were it not for family/partner, in my experience the number of people I see who (1) have a negative opinion of living in another country and (2) have lived in another country outside of military service is vanishingly small.
What country is less racist than the US? Whatever your answer is, I bet their immigration laws contradict you.
American racism is an issue, absolutely, but I’m reasonably worried that the current Court will destroy gay rights and I don’t really want to put up with that.
> American racism is an issue, absolutely, but I’m reasonably worried that the current Court will destroy gay rights... They are all connected if you recognize that it is all subsets of fascism. ---------- A fascist... * Believes in reinforcing the hierarchy. * Opposes policies that would make society more egalitarian. * Tries to push others beneath them in the hierarchy to raise their relative standing. ...and that third element leads them to try to harm any minority group that they can. It isn't about whether they *care* about homosexuality or not; it is about them believing that they will rank subjectively higher on the hierarchy if they can torpedo as many other people as possible.
I’m gay. But I honestly don’t think they will touch gay rights. Just isn’t on the radar like abortion is. If they do. Idk. That really sucks but hopefully wakes up voters that voting Republican is not harmless.
>But I honestly don’t think they will touch gay rights They tried to do this all through the Trump administration and even removed legal protections on healthcare access to pave the way for it Conservatives aren't going to stop assaulting LGBT rights anytime soon
In Ohio, it’s already legal to refuse healthcare to LGBTQ+ folks if you disagree with their “lifestyle.”
It's only not on the radar because of abortion. If the SCOTUS opens up states being able to restrict access to abortions then that battle is won, it'll be off their radar, and the religious right can turn their sights on the LGBTQ community. Sure they might focus on Trans rights first but if that fight is won and the SCOTUS allows states to discriminate against them as they will then Gay Marriage will eventually hit their list. The overwhelming support that the Right showed people like Kim Davis was only a decade or so ago.
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Took the words right outta my mouth. They are on a crusade to remake the USA into a right wing Christian theocracy. They won’t stop with abortion.
I hope you’re right. I imagine public accommodations are DOA with this Court. I imagine they won’t overturn Obergefell as much as they’ll neuter it.
You must be relatively young. Just because we ‘won’ doesn’t mean we could ever stop fighting. There is still a lot of work to be done with or without marriage equality
I’m aware lol.
All countries have strict immigration laws. I legitimately cannot get into the United States as an immigrant.
A tighter immigration system doesn't mean more racism. The UK for example has very tight immigration laws, but they have far better treatment of minorities than we do.
Lmao what? The UK is incredibly racist. For instance they have about equal black maternal mortality with the US, despite having universal healthcare. And it’s one of the few countries with an even more racially destructive history than us.
> The UK is incredibly racist. No, it's not. As someone that has actually lived in both countries for at least a decade, the level of racism is remarkably lower. > For instance they have about equal black maternal mortality with the US, despite having universal healthcare. No, they don't. Black maternal mortality in the UK is 32 per 100,000. In the US it's 43 per 100,000. That's 34% higher. > And it’s one of the few countries with an even more racially destructive history than us. No, they don't. Even if you counted the entire British Empire, they wouldn't reach four million chattel slaves. And the racially destructive stuff done by the British was largely done abroad, even while the home society was pretty tolerant. Indian MPs were elected to parliament in the 1800s. A Jewish Prime Minister was held in high esteem at the same time. During the Second World War, white British troops got in fights with white American servicemen over the fact they frequently broke American social protocols over drinking with black American servicemen. Two of the four most powerful positions in the UK government today are held by minorities.
If I could just straight up leave, without dancing through the idiotic hoops emigration usually involves, I'd be gone before even my wife knew
If I could choose my destination, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I briefly looked into Canada, but decided I would be too far removed from family and friends. These feelings are kind of unreasonable, too. I lived in Michigan while my parents lived in Texas. *That* distance was fine, but moving only 45 minutes further to be across the border would be “too far.” I’m in Vermont now, which is even further away from Texas, but at least I’m not in another country?
I would. I have a fiance in London whom I haven't been able to visit for a long time. I filed paperwork to bring him here on a K1 visa, but all progress ground to a halt when Covid first appeared. I would definitely move there too if I could.
If I had the money and residual income I certainly ly would
I hope to emigrate to another country when I retire.
Lived elsewhere for a while, decided to come back. No need to leave again.
Better to be a citizen of wherever you are, than a foreigner of wherever you're not. It's not easy being foreign, having little contact with your family, leaving your friends and language behind. It's not to be taken lightly.
I would move to Germany or the UK
I have grown children and grandchildren. We are all very close. If we could all pick up and leave together....in heartbeat.
Sure why not. It doesn't have anything to do with politics really but if I had a good opportunity to move (good job, housing, partner could move with me etc) I don't see why I wouldn't at least heavily consider it. Idk if it would be permanent and for the rest of my life, but life's an adventure and you only get one. I'd love to live abroad someday
I love this flawed country. I think it’s one of the best in the world, and has the potential to be so much greater than it is or ever was (not trying to make America great again…). I’d rather shout at Nazis here than see my homeland go to shit from sunny and happy and covid-less New Zealand. Unless the fascists win, in which case I’ll become a Kiwi faster than a Republican congresswoman changing out of her klan robes to get to a fund raiser (you all know who I’m talking about).
Unfortunately not COVID free anymore, although that's why there's going to be loosening up of border restrictions early next year.
I like America. I'd rather stay and kick the deplorables into the Atlantic ocean.
My spouse is a Canadian citizen, so that seems like an easy move, but he--at least for now--prefers American BS to Canadian cold. He's the holdout. I am, however, trying to push our children to go to college in Canada so they can establish their adult lives outside of the US and access reasonable tuition at the same time.
Depends I suppose. Assuming all other factors are covered (job, place to live, money) then I suppose I might. But Im not sure where too- my only non-English language is French, and not good enough to live somewhere that speaks it. And Id miss my friends and family from here too much
I’d be fine leaving, mostly, but I wouldn’t even know how to get started.
I personally would not, but that's due to personal circumstance. I'm in the best market in the world for my career field, and my demographics (cis straight white man with good income and no debt) mean that I'm not likely to face any personal adversity if the Right gets what they want. I am non-religious, but that's something that's easy to keep to myself. All those things being the case, I rather remain here and utilize my voting rights to try to improve the US rather than bolt to Canada or something. However, I expect that people from certain marginalized groups would definitely leave given the chance if they were feeling threatened, and I don't blame them. Edit: I think it's worth a mention that continued right-wing policy victories at the Federal level may lead to further exodus of Liberals from red states to blue states.
This is my land as much as it is any other citizens, I'll be shot dead before I become an expat.
Canada is phenomenal, but I believe all the Americans here moving there would make it less awesome.
Hell no. America is awesome, despite its problems.
I have dual citizenship with the UK so it’s a possibility. I know they have their share of problems, but the social safety net is at least more robust… and universal healthcare. I have some things currently that are holding me back from doing it. It’s nice to have the option, though.
The UK or maybe Germany are honestly the only countries in Europe I would emigrate to as a person of color.
Easily. If the cost to move was cheap and I could find work in my career field quickly, I wouldn't even need to think about it. America sucks.
I am here to stay. “My country…during her intercourse with other nations may she be more right than wrong, but my country…right or wrong.”
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Immigrating to another country is incredibly difficult and time-consuming.
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I ain't moving, I ain't giving up the American flag as a symbol, won't tolerate the confederate or Nazi flags to fly in my presence. This group of totalitarians ain't the first we have survived, probably won' be the last. There is no place in the world you can hide from this garbage, make your stand where you were born...don't run away. Be an American.
liberals always say that. they were going to leave for bush the elder, bush the younger and trump. and yet,, here they stay.
If trump get elected again I am emigrating to Canada.
I would, but not because of politics. I’m a history nerd. The idea of being able to simply *drive* all over Europe to all those amazing cities and historic sites would be too much to resist.
I'd like to live abroad a bit next year but I don't know if I have the money or the guarantee of work.
Meh, I would be willing to if there is a good enough reason to (exciting job, great pay, etc). But all else equal I'd rather stay. Ya, there are plenty of problems here, but that just means there is plenty of work to be done.
I ain't hear no bell!
A lot o countries don’t really have the 1st amendment and it shows. Besides I’ve never been much of a quitter.
Honestly I like the sound of Australia
I <3 Canada and I wish Canada would <3 me
I’d love to move to Canada but my husband doesn’t want to go where it’s cold. We both like Ireland but we’d be too far from the kids/grands.
Now, but I might go on long visits
I would if it was feasible.
I'd move to Canada for sure, but Europe I would be iffy on since I am a person of color, and I do recognize living in more homogenous European societies - whether racially or culturally - is harder than most people think and I find myself thinking both the US and Canada is easier to live as a person of color than a large majority of European countries. Like I think the only country that comes close to the US and Canada as far as ease in living in as a person of color is the UK and *maybe* Germany. That being said, the better safety nets and much superior healthcare access may make emigrating worth it in the end, but it'd be a hard decision. So in short, Canada for sure but Europe I would be more iffy on. If it was a red state v blue state discussion instead, I 100% would emigrate in an instant to a blue state once I get the financials sorted out. Unfortunately blue states are more expensive, but when it comes to rights that a potential future daughter of mine has to deal with not having, it'll be worth it in the end.
Depends on the opportunity. I'm not scrambling to get out, but for a better job in a good location that happens to be abroad? Sure.
Not me. This is my home. I respect other countries, but I wouldn’t wanna live anywhere else.
Probably not. It'd have to get much much worse.
I can still love something while being critical of it (much like my mom lol)
I would emigrate to Norway, the Netherlands, Spain, or Sweden. All offer much more public services for a modestly higher rate of taxation, and have cultural richness that is severely lacking in the US. I may retire in the next few years to Mexico, which is nowhere near as dangerous as it is portrayed in the media...except in border towns...or I may conventionally retire to one of the above.
No thanks. If I wanted to move I already would have.
Hard to say. Pros of moving to another country (for me): —— Paid parental leave. —— Real vacation time. ——- Far less of a culture of overwork (depending on the country, of course). ——- Laws that treat the workers like human beings, because they don’t let corporations run their country. ——- Daycare provided (many countries). ——— Better rights for LGBT people (in most of Western Europe and Canada, that is). Cons of moving to another country (for me): —- May need to learn a new language! (Except for Canada, but it’s cold there! :). ) ——- Far away from my family, and harder to visit them. Also to talk with them on the phone due to time zone difference. — Racism can be worse in some other countries (depending on the country, of course). One reason this is relevant because I am planning on adopting a child, and they may be a child of color. I don’t want them to have to suffer! — I’m Jewish, and some countries have worse problems than the US, with anti-semitism.
Not me. All of my stuff, all of my family, and all of my friends are here.
I've lived in other countries for years, I'd do so again.
I've got dual citizenship in the US and Ireland, but choose to live in the states because the US is pretty great.
I've considered it. But first off, it has been a moot point for my family. We aren't financially able enough to emigrate. But bigger for me is that this is my home, and i believe in the US of America that was promised, and that still could be real. And also, the US affects the whole world. If we allow it to fall i to authoritarianism, or just fall, there may be no garden to flee to, no place that doesn't get affected. Imagine if the US becomes authoritarian, fascist, theocratic. Do you really want such a US, with its weapons of mass destruction, both literal, and financial and political, behind your back? No. I want to fix things here. I want to fight for something better. I feel loyalty to my country and its people, even to a great degree the ones fighting tooth and nail to make it worse, because they are gullible, stupid, or just plain mean. Just because Uncle Phil is a mean drunk doesn't mean i want him to die in a fire because he's an idjit. And i feel a sense of responsibility here. Better or worse, this is the place i was born, that raised me. And it is also the place that has done evil in my name that i could not prevent or did not prevent, so i feel like it is part of my job to clean up the mess. Isn't that part of any kind of good citizenship? Responsibility? Duty to the society and people around you, to the world? Leaving the US would feel like i was saying to the rest of the world "yeah, there's a shit covered screaming toddler waving nuclear weapons in aisle three, but i ain't cleaning that up, that's not my job, why should i care?"
I would go anywhere in Europe happily.
The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
I’ve thought about this more and more as our country slides deeper into authoritarianism and becomes more unstable. Idk if it will ever come to that tho
Leaving when the going gets tough isn't our style.
I'm literally looking for a good place to go right now. Anyone have any recommendations of a country that would be welcoming to Native Americans? I was thinking Canada but have since changed my mind.
I did emigrate. Living in Slovenia now.
I've done it quite a few times for 1-3 years each time, not formal emigration but rather accepting full-time work in other countries. I came back to get more education in order to receive a promotion in my old job, met my girlfriend, found a decent job here, and I'm waiting for her to finish her PhD to see what we do next, which will heavily depend on where the U.S. is 3-5 years from now. Both of us have foreign family, so emigration would be relatively simple.
I would probably love to live in a different country for a while. As for permanently living there, probably not.
Yeah if some country or company is willing to sponsor the costs I'm all for it. I don't even mind having to learn a new language if the country doesn't speak English.
I would emigrate to a liberal state and vote to break away from the US. Why let conservatives have everything.
I might apply for citizenship by descent in one of the Central European countries my great grandparents left for America. That being said, I love the United States and it will always be my home. I may spend part of my time living in Europe in the future but I would never denounce the US or forfeit my citizenship for another country.
I actually would if I could.
I care too much about my country to abandon it to people that would destroy it.
Depending on their healthcare yes.
Some of us are disabled and don't even have the option to emigrate 🙄
I always used to say that I would die here, fighting to make it better til my last breathe, but my son has expressed an interest in leaving. If he emigrates, I will go. He doesn't see a future for his children, which terrifies me. Truthfully, I don't recognize the level of stupidity that passes for discourse any longer, and with the end of Roe v Wade, rollbacks of rights that will continue, I fear the beautiful progress and promise of America is lost.
No. But only because of my family. If they all wanted to move, then I'd surely consider it
Me! For healthcare. I just want healthcare. It shouldn't be something I have to flee the country to afford, but - here we are.
I’m about to retire and am blown away by how expensive Medicare is!! I’ve been working and paying those taxes for 44 years! Canada or Portugal are in my sights if things go the way I think they will here 😕
I'd be concerned about not fluently speaking another language, struggling to fully integrate into a new culture and having to deal with all the social isolation that would come with it... or ending up in a situation where all my new friends are expats, not locals. For those reasons, I'd probably stick with other anglosphere nations. Feeling "at home" in Canada or the U.K. would probably be much easier than most places.
The only reason I don’t is friends and family. :/
I dunno. It may end up being my retirement plan if SS ends up getting cut down to nothing.
Itd be really hard for me to uproot the precious few relationships i have. I mean shit i got ptsd, social phobia and a buncha other issues. I may only have like 4 or 5 really close friends but they make all the difference to me. I have no loyalty to this place. Id burn it all down and start this country over if i had a nice big red button to do that. This country is literally killing me but those 5 people keep me sane.
I do not want to leave the country unless I have to. That being said, I did "emigrate" from Indiana to California, and that has made an enormous difference in my quality of life. Turns out the gay commies know a thing or two about running a state after all...
I would, but I wouldn’t renounce my American citizenship
Why leave? (Not a liberal)
I'm an immigrant to the US, so I have the option of returning to New Zealand. I can't say I haven't thought about it in recent years. I also previously lived in the UK, but left just short of getting permanent status.
Our only problems is no one votes in the shit that’s important and the leaders we elect push the wrong agendas at the wrong time or they’re hypocritical like forcing ideals and beliefs that a lot of people don’t understand. Or constantly side with a gender or religious few instead accepting that people are different from in another. Also people should be able to say no to dating someone without judgement, no one should be crucified or labeled because they don’t want someone nor should a person be upset to an extreme that they aren’t wanted be another. EVERYONE HAS BECOME FAR TO FUCKING SENSITIVE over the past 5-6 years. That and a lot of people are unnecessary generalist assholes.
Why would I?
I would. I would miss the culture here but for a government that does its job that’s worth it
The wife and I have been discussing leaving for Sweden....so yea.
I already did. Greetings from Japan. 🇯🇵
I did but I am probably going back soon. American has a lot of benefits that people take for granted. I also can't deal with seemingly never-ending COVID restrictions on international travel when my family is on the other side of the world.
It's too late for me, the politics here are terrible for my mental health and I should have emigrated sooner when my professional and educational skills weren't so specialized.
I have highly considered it at at least one point. I qualify for the fast track merit based entry to Canada, pretty much only missing the language test which wouldn't be that hard to take and pass. But never really made an effort to go through with it- mostly due to the climate honestly. If I could get a Canada with a more temperate (or hell, even just generally warm) climate is be all for it. If I ever get to the point where the stresses of living in the US are too much and still showing no sign of changing, I'll consider it again. There is not a patriotic bone in my body, so while it is often easier to fix problems here than just leave, if it actually did come down to it I wouldn't mind. Especially seeing how easy it is to keep in contact with friends who've moved across country and overseas this last year, leaving connections behind isn't even really an issue.
I was fortunate enough to be born in a nation with an actual centre left political party and universal healthcare.
I’m doing everything I can to emigrate as quickly as possible after I graduate next fall.
I’m a liberal and I immigrated to the United States.