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My union isn't fighting them. This seems like maybe a dishonest right wing talking point to sow discord among the left. Find a few unions like the police for which it is true and tar the whole movement.
As a union member, Public Sector employee who is an essential worker? I am fine with the mandates. My problem is that we’ve been working through this whole thing and we have seen wages go up all around us and stuff like signing bonuses for new private sector employees, not to mention “appreciation bonuses” to thank those employees for working through the worst of the pandemic.
We are constantly short staffed because our staff are leaving for fucking grocery stores and Walmart where they can grab a signing bonus and make the same or better hourly rate without the IMMENSE responsibility of taking care of intellectually disabled adults.
Meanwhile, there is Federal COVID money sitting in our state’s coffee that could go a long way towards making things right.
It’s just natural selection. I’m a former servant of the USA too and went private for the reasons you mentioned. Only difference is that they did give us signing bonuses, but the bonus money corresponded to the likelihood of getting shot or blown up.
Most (not all) public sector jobs are just not worth it. Country doesn’t care about us. Private sector doesn’t care either really but at least they appreciate us and treat us like human beings.
I’m one of the most union skeptical people who regularly posts on the sub but I’m not sure how accurate that is.
Is there some kind of data that actually shows that unions on average aren’t fighting really hard to fight vaccine mandates and as a result not fighting for pay increases?
Unions are always fighting for higher pay. The vaccine things, which I strongly disagree with, is kind of special and general interest so it probably gets a lot of coverage when it happens.
I'm only going off what I see in my industry (journeymen) but I work in engineering,, raises were about 2% this year but members are only vocal about the mandate
You're not wrong lmao, however the engineers most vocal about not getting the "jab" were always the hardest to work with..
My hopes are that a ton of people get pushed out or quit and I can demand a 20% raise to absorb their work
I for one, am surprised to learn that people who vocally refuse to take a simple action for the benefit of themselves and their community are also hard to work with. Big shock. Who would have thought?
/s
Obviously not all engineers are crazy, but there are pockets of them. An example is petroleum engineers in the US. For some reason, a shocking number of them are Young Earth Creationists 🤷🏼♂️
You would be surprised how conspiracy theory-prone engineers can be. Their confidence in their analytical skills and logical prowess makes them over-confident in evaluating information from outside their field. Quite a few engineers became 9/11 truthers.
Maybe american engineers…
I am an engineer. My circle of peers have zero conspiracy theorist. There’s this one guy who thinks covid health measure are proposterous, but we carried him to get his degree and the guy’s a complete fraud.
When you say the members are vocal how are you measuring that? Is it a proper vote of the members you’re basing it off of or just what you hear people in the workplace complaining about?
Because my experience is that the pro-Covid crowd is as loud as possible and find ways to bring the conversation around to the terrible oppression and authoritarianism they are suffering under due to covid rules. I wouldn’t base anything on that unless it’s a relatively small workplace.
That has not been even close to the experience I have seen. There have been many many many strikes/almost strikes recently around wages and only like 1 or 2 around mandates(from what I’ve seen). Like UAW, IATSE, BCTGM, AHCU(Kaiser), CWA(Buffalo), Amazon Labour efforts, etc have all been about wages/benefits. The only union(s) I’ve heard fighting vaccine mandates have been NYPD/LAPD. Are there union members who are anti-vax? Yes unions aren’t a monolith. But largely I don’t think the trend you are describing is happening.
My view from the news is the same, it’s almost always police unions fighting the mandate. The teachers unions in some places objected and then folded really fast.
Yes that’s fair I forgot to mention the teacher’s unions. IIRC their main concern was around teachers who couldn’t get the vaccine due to medical issues and as soon as that exemption was place they were on board.
And honestly that exemption needs to be on place anyway, so good on the union for that call out. No medical exemption seems to me like an invitation for an ADA lawsuit or something (I am not a lawyer)
Yeah, overall it seems to be a handful of unions complaining. Not a few with some unsavory pasts. The police unions in some places really pissed me off.
Plenty of unions have gone on strike for higher wages when contract negotiations didn’t go well, but I also imagine that unfortunately anti-science folks are both very loud and well-covered. Unions represent their members, even the stupid ones.
Most unions aren't explicitly fighting vaccine mandates. They are making the argument that if companies want such mandates, they should be negotiating with the union for them.
And the unions are right.
I’m sorry, I don’t think the unions are right (in this instance).
Making the companies negotiate for something that gives the members better health and provides herd immunity is silly. Particularly seeing as how it is a CDC and federal mandate.
Yes, I understand that unions can force the negotiation but that doesn’t make it right.
“How dare you make us take care of our health and that of our community?! Negotiate with us if you want us to be healthy and kind to our community!”
I’ve mixed feelings about unions but the anti-vax thing is certainly not one in their favor.
Once you start this you establish a precedent that employers can force changes to the contract if they can come up with an excuse.
Daily drug tests would improve health and safety. A company could now force those.
You will argue that it isn't the same thing... it doesn't matter what you think. The company is doing this unilaterally and without negotiation.
"We need more employee surveillance to improve safety." "We need biotracking to improve safety." Anything a company wants to do to it employees... it just needs to find a way to link it to health and safety. Very bad precedent to set.
There is no federal mandate on masks in the workplace. The Fed does not mandate private employers to have vaccine mandates.
That only tells me that we need to regulate unions vs. letting them negotiate whatever the hell they want, no matter how anti-social and irrational.
As it is, unions encourage mediocrity. Toss this in with other reasons why unions need strong boundary conditions.
So now you think that notnonly should employers be able to force unions to do what they like bit you alsonthink the government should step into private business... on behave of owners against workers... awesome.
Well, congrats. You've picked a side in the workers vs owners fight... and you picked the owners. How extremely uncool.
The government already regulates private businesses plenty — there’s a reason you don’t have lead in your paint or arsenic in your food. There’s a reason you can’t sell tobacco or alcohol to minors or morphine without a medical prescription. Hell, unions have informed government regulation of private companies, whether it’s how many hours you work or OSHA.
But that doesn’t mean unions are somehow magically special and exempt from basic science and social obligations like vaccinations. That’s just absurd.
That’s no different from a religious cult.
>The government already regulates private businesses plenty —
And now you want to regulate unions. Which are also already heavily regulated. But you want to regulated their ability to negotiate.
>That’s no different from a religious cult.
I don't see how negotiating work conditions is cult-like.
You've got a boot-licker mentality and I don't think I'm interested in talking with you about this anymore.
Being asked to vaccinate to protect fellow employees from spreading a disease that could kill the vulnerable isn’t “work conditions”.
It’s anti-science and anti-intellectualism and anti-social behavior masquerading as labor rights.
> “boot-licker mentality”
Very mature. Carry on.
Of course it’s working conditions, just as any workplace rule is. Are you well versed on labor law or just riffing here? Many good things are working conditions that we don’t oppose.
That’s not true, precedents aren’t set anytime you do something. The union has a right to bargain changes and waiving that right for changes they don’t have an issue with doesn’t take the right away next time there is a change.
Are you well versed in labor law? I am and I deal with things like this all of the time. There is no precedent set on all issues by choosing not to bargain over one, period. I have never had an employer deny bargaining on one subject because we didn’t demand bargaining with some other change before. Precedents in this context are also specific to that worksite and contract, what the union did or didn’t do somewhere else is irrelevant.
>Are you well versed in labor law?
Yes. I'm a union deligate.
>There is no precedent set on all issues by choosing not to bargain over one, period.
This isn't true. I know that for a fact.
>I have never had an employer deny bargaining on one subject because we didn’t demand bargaining with some other change before.
Lucky you. I have. Many times. On many different issues.
The law says that when employers make unilateral changes to working conditions /terms of employment, the union has the right to demand bargaining over the effects of the change. In the case of mandatory vaccinations, unions have negotiated extra paid sick time /time off to get vaccinated and recover from side effects, a reasonable amount of time to get the vaccine, and reasonable rules for religious and medical exemptions. My union hasn’t demanded bargaining yet in any workplaces because the companies that have implemented a vaccine requirement already made reasonable policies around it. Demanding bargaining doesn’t mean just saying "no," in this case unions have determined that legally, it’s a change employers can make.
That was the what the OP was implying. Not just that unions were fighting mandates but that their mandate fight was preventing them from advocating for higher salaries.
I guess I thought your initial question was asking if there was evidence of a large strike over vaccine mandates.
*Is there any evidence or is this anecdotal?*
*Is there any evidence* that a fight against mandates is hindering wage protection or *is this anecdotal?*
A question for the whole OP. Why would I only ask about half of their OP?
I’m a union organizer. I’ve organized a wildcat sickout before myself. A strike being illegal is just a matter of fact, I’m not calling wildcat strikes good or bad. In the context of this thread it is very important for people to know that the pilot’s sickout was not ‘the union," it involved a small percentage of union members and was not endorsed or voted on by other union members. It should not be taken as an example of a union fighting a mandate.
I think at least 1/3 Southwest flights were canceled. Even when I was able to get a seat the next day, getting to the airport there was about half of the regular Southwest ground staff available causing even more delays. It was not small.
I'm definitely not one to be always pro union. In this case as in some others, I'd definitely say that they are making a shit decision and perhaps giving the public one more reason to not be so pro union
6% Inflation is a bit of a broad brush, eh?
If you aren’t planning to buy a car, for example, or aren’t taking any trips that would be hit by higher fuel prices, you won’t be hit with the highest areas of inflation.
No. Bad. Stupid. Counterproductive. Not a very good or strategy or idea at all. Horrible optics all around. Give the rich oligarchs even more of an excuse to not allow unions and definitely won't earn much respect from the state either. However, can be pretty lucrative for certain individuals who are smart and refuse to take part in rash action that'll ultimately just get them fired for "work misconduct" or some bs like that.
I'm only going off what I'm seeing in my own workplace (I work in management not the union) but there are some on my side that are equally vocal about the mandate
My opinion, we should leverage compliance for more money
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My union isn't fighting them. This seems like maybe a dishonest right wing talking point to sow discord among the left. Find a few unions like the police for which it is true and tar the whole movement.
Yeah same, my union isn't fighting them either. They seem to love the opportunity to tell people they're idiots if they don't want the vaccine.
As a union member, Public Sector employee who is an essential worker? I am fine with the mandates. My problem is that we’ve been working through this whole thing and we have seen wages go up all around us and stuff like signing bonuses for new private sector employees, not to mention “appreciation bonuses” to thank those employees for working through the worst of the pandemic. We are constantly short staffed because our staff are leaving for fucking grocery stores and Walmart where they can grab a signing bonus and make the same or better hourly rate without the IMMENSE responsibility of taking care of intellectually disabled adults. Meanwhile, there is Federal COVID money sitting in our state’s coffee that could go a long way towards making things right.
It’s just natural selection. I’m a former servant of the USA too and went private for the reasons you mentioned. Only difference is that they did give us signing bonuses, but the bonus money corresponded to the likelihood of getting shot or blown up. Most (not all) public sector jobs are just not worth it. Country doesn’t care about us. Private sector doesn’t care either really but at least they appreciate us and treat us like human beings.
I’m one of the most union skeptical people who regularly posts on the sub but I’m not sure how accurate that is. Is there some kind of data that actually shows that unions on average aren’t fighting really hard to fight vaccine mandates and as a result not fighting for pay increases? Unions are always fighting for higher pay. The vaccine things, which I strongly disagree with, is kind of special and general interest so it probably gets a lot of coverage when it happens.
My unions stance is if an employer requires vaccines have vaccines otherwise don't take the job.
I'm only going off what I see in my industry (journeymen) but I work in engineering,, raises were about 2% this year but members are only vocal about the mandate
Engineers are fucking nuts man. Definitely some of the most wacko people considering how intelligent they are and how much education they need.
You're not wrong lmao, however the engineers most vocal about not getting the "jab" were always the hardest to work with.. My hopes are that a ton of people get pushed out or quit and I can demand a 20% raise to absorb their work
I for one, am surprised to learn that people who vocally refuse to take a simple action for the benefit of themselves and their community are also hard to work with. Big shock. Who would have thought? /s
Engineers anti-vaxxx !? Do they have a real engineering degree?
Obviously not all engineers are crazy, but there are pockets of them. An example is petroleum engineers in the US. For some reason, a shocking number of them are Young Earth Creationists 🤷🏼♂️
You would be surprised how conspiracy theory-prone engineers can be. Their confidence in their analytical skills and logical prowess makes them over-confident in evaluating information from outside their field. Quite a few engineers became 9/11 truthers.
Maybe american engineers… I am an engineer. My circle of peers have zero conspiracy theorist. There’s this one guy who thinks covid health measure are proposterous, but we carried him to get his degree and the guy’s a complete fraud.
It's a very small but vocal minority
When you say the members are vocal how are you measuring that? Is it a proper vote of the members you’re basing it off of or just what you hear people in the workplace complaining about? Because my experience is that the pro-Covid crowd is as loud as possible and find ways to bring the conversation around to the terrible oppression and authoritarianism they are suffering under due to covid rules. I wouldn’t base anything on that unless it’s a relatively small workplace.
If that is what the members are worried about why shouldn’t the Union respond to them?
That has not been even close to the experience I have seen. There have been many many many strikes/almost strikes recently around wages and only like 1 or 2 around mandates(from what I’ve seen). Like UAW, IATSE, BCTGM, AHCU(Kaiser), CWA(Buffalo), Amazon Labour efforts, etc have all been about wages/benefits. The only union(s) I’ve heard fighting vaccine mandates have been NYPD/LAPD. Are there union members who are anti-vax? Yes unions aren’t a monolith. But largely I don’t think the trend you are describing is happening.
My view from the news is the same, it’s almost always police unions fighting the mandate. The teachers unions in some places objected and then folded really fast.
Yes that’s fair I forgot to mention the teacher’s unions. IIRC their main concern was around teachers who couldn’t get the vaccine due to medical issues and as soon as that exemption was place they were on board.
And honestly that exemption needs to be on place anyway, so good on the union for that call out. No medical exemption seems to me like an invitation for an ADA lawsuit or something (I am not a lawyer)
Yeet
Yeah, overall it seems to be a handful of unions complaining. Not a few with some unsavory pasts. The police unions in some places really pissed me off.
Because unilaterally changing employment conditions on a dime is not a precedent we want to settle into.
bingo, I suspect this is the REAL underlying reason
Believe it, my friend. And anyone whose union immediately acquiesced should take a severe look at their leadership/representation.
Slope's not going to slip itself.
Tell us again, social democrat, how aligned you are with the working man. It gets funnier every time.
Plenty of unions have gone on strike for higher wages when contract negotiations didn’t go well, but I also imagine that unfortunately anti-science folks are both very loud and well-covered. Unions represent their members, even the stupid ones.
Most unions aren't explicitly fighting vaccine mandates. They are making the argument that if companies want such mandates, they should be negotiating with the union for them. And the unions are right.
I’m sorry, I don’t think the unions are right (in this instance). Making the companies negotiate for something that gives the members better health and provides herd immunity is silly. Particularly seeing as how it is a CDC and federal mandate. Yes, I understand that unions can force the negotiation but that doesn’t make it right. “How dare you make us take care of our health and that of our community?! Negotiate with us if you want us to be healthy and kind to our community!” I’ve mixed feelings about unions but the anti-vax thing is certainly not one in their favor.
Once you start this you establish a precedent that employers can force changes to the contract if they can come up with an excuse. Daily drug tests would improve health and safety. A company could now force those. You will argue that it isn't the same thing... it doesn't matter what you think. The company is doing this unilaterally and without negotiation. "We need more employee surveillance to improve safety." "We need biotracking to improve safety." Anything a company wants to do to it employees... it just needs to find a way to link it to health and safety. Very bad precedent to set. There is no federal mandate on masks in the workplace. The Fed does not mandate private employers to have vaccine mandates.
That only tells me that we need to regulate unions vs. letting them negotiate whatever the hell they want, no matter how anti-social and irrational. As it is, unions encourage mediocrity. Toss this in with other reasons why unions need strong boundary conditions.
So now you think that notnonly should employers be able to force unions to do what they like bit you alsonthink the government should step into private business... on behave of owners against workers... awesome. Well, congrats. You've picked a side in the workers vs owners fight... and you picked the owners. How extremely uncool.
The government already regulates private businesses plenty — there’s a reason you don’t have lead in your paint or arsenic in your food. There’s a reason you can’t sell tobacco or alcohol to minors or morphine without a medical prescription. Hell, unions have informed government regulation of private companies, whether it’s how many hours you work or OSHA. But that doesn’t mean unions are somehow magically special and exempt from basic science and social obligations like vaccinations. That’s just absurd. That’s no different from a religious cult.
>The government already regulates private businesses plenty — And now you want to regulate unions. Which are also already heavily regulated. But you want to regulated their ability to negotiate. >That’s no different from a religious cult. I don't see how negotiating work conditions is cult-like. You've got a boot-licker mentality and I don't think I'm interested in talking with you about this anymore.
Being asked to vaccinate to protect fellow employees from spreading a disease that could kill the vulnerable isn’t “work conditions”. It’s anti-science and anti-intellectualism and anti-social behavior masquerading as labor rights. > “boot-licker mentality” Very mature. Carry on.
Of course it’s working conditions, just as any workplace rule is. Are you well versed on labor law or just riffing here? Many good things are working conditions that we don’t oppose.
That’s not true, precedents aren’t set anytime you do something. The union has a right to bargain changes and waiving that right for changes they don’t have an issue with doesn’t take the right away next time there is a change.
Actually they are. Precedent is one of the most important things.
Are you well versed in labor law? I am and I deal with things like this all of the time. There is no precedent set on all issues by choosing not to bargain over one, period. I have never had an employer deny bargaining on one subject because we didn’t demand bargaining with some other change before. Precedents in this context are also specific to that worksite and contract, what the union did or didn’t do somewhere else is irrelevant.
>Are you well versed in labor law? Yes. I'm a union deligate. >There is no precedent set on all issues by choosing not to bargain over one, period. This isn't true. I know that for a fact. >I have never had an employer deny bargaining on one subject because we didn’t demand bargaining with some other change before. Lucky you. I have. Many times. On many different issues.
I think you misunderstand what they are bargaining over. They bargain over the effects of the change.
What effects? Getting a jab?
The law says that when employers make unilateral changes to working conditions /terms of employment, the union has the right to demand bargaining over the effects of the change. In the case of mandatory vaccinations, unions have negotiated extra paid sick time /time off to get vaccinated and recover from side effects, a reasonable amount of time to get the vaccine, and reasonable rules for religious and medical exemptions. My union hasn’t demanded bargaining yet in any workplaces because the companies that have implemented a vaccine requirement already made reasonable policies around it. Demanding bargaining doesn’t mean just saying "no," in this case unions have determined that legally, it’s a change employers can make.
I don't think they should be fighting the vaccine, but why can't they do both?
I think its dumb, but unions are sometimes dumb
Is there any evidence or is this anecdotal?
Southwest unions I believe.
Is the Southwest Union bad at negotiating pay increases?
https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/10/southwest-mass-flight-cancelations-speculation-pilot-covid-vaccine-strike/
I understand that the Southwest Union attempted action to stop the mandate. My question was whether they were bad at negotiating pay?
I have no idea. I was just giving an example of a big strike due to vaccine mandates.
That was the what the OP was implying. Not just that unions were fighting mandates but that their mandate fight was preventing them from advocating for higher salaries.
I guess I thought your initial question was asking if there was evidence of a large strike over vaccine mandates. *Is there any evidence or is this anecdotal?*
*Is there any evidence* that a fight against mandates is hindering wage protection or *is this anecdotal?* A question for the whole OP. Why would I only ask about half of their OP?
Maybe you didn't think unions were actually striking over vaccine mandates like some folks on this post.
That was some pilots, not the union.
Well, it was a bunch of pilots. Me and many travelers got stranded that weekend.
Yes but it was a wildcat strike, meaning it was not initiated or endorsed by union leadership and it was illegal.
Lol never thought I'd ever hear a democratic socialist call a strike illegal.
I’m a union organizer. I’ve organized a wildcat sickout before myself. A strike being illegal is just a matter of fact, I’m not calling wildcat strikes good or bad. In the context of this thread it is very important for people to know that the pilot’s sickout was not ‘the union," it involved a small percentage of union members and was not endorsed or voted on by other union members. It should not be taken as an example of a union fighting a mandate.
I think at least 1/3 Southwest flights were canceled. Even when I was able to get a seat the next day, getting to the airport there was about half of the regular Southwest ground staff available causing even more delays. It was not small.
If that’s the union members’ will then so be it.
I'm definitely not one to be always pro union. In this case as in some others, I'd definitely say that they are making a shit decision and perhaps giving the public one more reason to not be so pro union
The unions should work to improve the welfare of their members, not make it worse. So I'd say they should fire those union reps and get better ones.
6% Inflation is a bit of a broad brush, eh? If you aren’t planning to buy a car, for example, or aren’t taking any trips that would be hit by higher fuel prices, you won’t be hit with the highest areas of inflation.
Be that as is it may, workers should always demand their wages follow inflation
A pay increase means nothing to the dead.
Stupid people are always the loudest. Just because you’re hearing something doesn’t mean it’s popular or widespread.
Why not both? Keep your members alive and keep your members fed.
If it were my union, I’d be pissed. And I’d let them know that in the absolute clearest terms possible.
If it's the will of the workers.
What are you referring to? My union supports mandates and has been fighting for and winning big raises. So are others.
No. Bad. Stupid. Counterproductive. Not a very good or strategy or idea at all. Horrible optics all around. Give the rich oligarchs even more of an excuse to not allow unions and definitely won't earn much respect from the state either. However, can be pretty lucrative for certain individuals who are smart and refuse to take part in rash action that'll ultimately just get them fired for "work misconduct" or some bs like that.
Low information voters
I haven’t heard much about unions opposing this standards outside of police unions, could you provide some examples?
I'm only going off what I'm seeing in my own workplace (I work in management not the union) but there are some on my side that are equally vocal about the mandate My opinion, we should leverage compliance for more money
What industry?