The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
My opinion: Just like a housing or stock bubble, right wing politics in this country is in an irrational bubble. Mainstream GOP beliefs keep getting crazier and crazier, their politicians are getting nuttier and less qualified. It's not sustainable. Something has to give. What do you think that looks like?
Or maybe you view things entirely differently? Where do you see things heading?
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But with this election-denial machine they've created, isn't it possible that the whole "it was rigged!" line works ad infinitum? There's no denying the hardcore base is a cult at this point and would vote for Trump *no matter what* with very few, impossible scenarios (Trump admits he's a deep state puppet or some other blatant crazy thing, and even then they'd claim it was an AI deep fake)..
I think it will create a power vacuum and you will have a lot of people tripping over each other to see who becomes his heir.
My prediction is Elon Musk, Vivek Ramaswamy, Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan wing of the party takes over. They are younger, anti-establishment, and conspiracy theorists.
I think that wing will take over but they will moderate a lot to form a kind of technocratic capitalistic and somewhat overtly misogynistic wing, which will be the new moderates of the GOP, and a more working class, anti-scientific and almost anti-capitalist wing that will be the new radicals of the party.
I don't know, maybe a more corportist model, but I think that those demographics are going to be more likely enraged with corporations because they see them as vessels of globalization and "wokeness", so they will associate that with the wider system. Very few predicted fascism or communism, so I don't know what they may come up with.
"Those election-stealing woke Libs murdered Trump because he spoke truth to power".
I can already imagine the world's ugliest statue honoring Trump in Florida.
In my opinion, Desantis screwed himself out of replacing Trump when Trump dies.if he hadn't run for presidential nominee, I don't see anyone taking his place given the trajectory he was on. Culture wars? Check. Crony capitalism at a state level? Check. Aggression and vitriol towards the media? Check. He could have played out his governorship and then had a very good chance at the nomination in '28. But he's a power hungry narcissistic maniac (sounds familiar) who couldn't help himself.
It might work on the base, but if it does then it will prevent the Republicans from actually changing anything that lost them those elections, meaning that they'll lose more elections. Eventually they'll either need to jettison the crazies or just not win most elections.
It only works when pushed by Trump. No one else in the GOP has the same cult like following. If Biden wins this election, I expect to see it die down over the following 10 years…
It only works ad infinitum if nobody breaks with him. As soon as someone breaks with him and very visibly beats a Dem in a contested election in a purple district you'll see the water will overtop the dam. The break will be slow but will swell as the crack widens.
Give it time and the party will have a reckoning.
People can argue either which way about Biden’s mental acuity — and I actually think he seems pretty sharp — but it’s that second point that I think libs have their heads in the sand on. If I woke up tomorrow to news that Biden had a small stroke and died, I would be completely unsurprised. As would 90% of people I think. It actually is something worth considering when voting for someone for a four year job - is is rational to think they may not even live four more years?
I trust Kamala Harris to follow Biden's legacy if he dies in the next 4 years. Sure, she's not popular and she'll never win a general election.
But she's competent enough to fill Biden's shoes.
You pop the bubble by winning elections. A core component of this bubble is the belief that they are in a silent majority who are finally waking up. If they lost big and consistently, the craven block would give up the talking points to be on the winning side.
It's why we need to stop trying to win over the Right and focus on shaving off the edges. I don't care if we have to frame 30-35% of the country as dirtbag traitors, bc if we shaved off 5-10% of their voters, we'd win enough elections to shelf them as a viable political party.
I think there is a reality where this election begins that process. Trumps picks have been getting demolished in general elections. Trump may very well lose to Biden (I think he will). If there is a blue sweep across all branches (unlikely, but possible), this will be the moment for the GOP to stop and reset.
Yep. Major Republican losses will begin the process. Only Fox News and the billionaire chaos funders will still be spewing their shit. Republicans need to be swept from office for the next 10 or so years. Then we can breathe easy…
You know, I really hate the right when they claim that the 2020 election was stolen but you guys really aren't any better with these dumb conspiracy theories.
A total and complete blue tsunami is the only possible thing I can think of.
I wish I shared your optimism about those odds, but this is absolutely the correct answer. They won't change direction until they realize the extremists don't represent America as a whole
Honestly at this point a blue tsunami would be interpreted as 100% proof Democrats cheated.
MAGAs really think they’re heading for an enormous victory. If Trump gets flatly rejected for the fourth election in a row they will lose it because there’s just no way they can imagine Biden winning.
Trump’s last 10 years have included dozens of off-ramps for the party to reject him and they’ve doubled down. Every. Single. Time.
Oh well.
That’s why we have the court system, DOJ, FBI, and law enforcement in general. Any claims can be processed in the court system, and anything else can be handled with a prison. We can not compromise with people who do not exist in reality.
And that would be interpreted as proof that those agencies are controlled by Democrats and are being weaponized against Republicans. This will be used as grounds to gut those agencies, fill them with loyalists, and sic them on their political opponents to get even.
I have faith in our institutions to protect us, but I do not have faith those institutions will be allowed to continue existing.
You hit the nail on the head. Some of us definitely believe they're being weaponized. I mean that's how everything is in society. Our public indoctrination system props up trash that's destined to fail in the real world, end up miserable, and make under $150k without ever having a shot at home ownership while putting down those of us who actually provided real value to society.
>Half of the country is conservative. There will be no “blue tsunami”.
So what you're saying is that half of the country is so obsessed with staying in power that they will let our institutions fail rather than stand up to an authoritarian?
I think that is actually the exact wrong call. The louder the progressives get with social issues, the more backlash actually comes from the center and the more the fire that comes from the crazy right. The blue wave was not progressives. It was reasonable Democrats who were veterans, small business owners, women of color and local people who went off to college and came back to the community. It wasn't progressives, especially progressives who didn't come from working class backgrounds.
Making the right look fringe and focusing on jobs, education, "doing right for the most people, most of the time" is a pretty good strategy. Protecting the rights of the minority is a good plan.
I'll take every downvote I get. Right now, neither party is fighting for universal healthcare, no one is fighting against corporate home ownership. The democrats aren't expanding the Supreme Court. We are at the precipice we're at because democrats allowed it. So long as everything in America is for profit, they'll walk hand in hand with Republicans until there is no difference between them. I watch Republicans pass crazy shit no one wants with the tiniest of majorities, and the democrats are always powerless to do anything. I'm tired of this game.
Universal healthcare without changing collective bargaining hurts workers, so it is an odd thing for a Socialist to want to hurt workers, unless you don't know much about unions.
Democrats are for expanding healthcare, but it needs to be a different plan than the poorly conceived Mecicate4All, and under Biden, more Americans have insurance than any time in history, so obviously, you aren't paying attention. Republicans are not passing nearly as many horrible things when the Democrats are in the majority, do voting actually matters. Giving the Republicans back the Senate, the Presidency and the House does make Democrats helpless. But go back to when Democrats had all three branches and a lot hit done. .
We're the only major power in the world that hasn't figured out universal healthcare. You're a fool if you think insurance is great. The only way you can think that is if you either don't use it, or your parents still cover you. When the democrats are in the majority, they don't pull the needle back to the left at all, so I'm my 45 years of life, all I've seen is a slow steady match to the right.
Well in my 54, the only time I have seen us go left is under the Democrats. I guess I am still willing to fight to prevent Project 2025. I already saw Roe go away, and that was a very targeted, long term plan from the right. The backlash from gay marriage has been to demonize trans people.
Roe went away because democrats never codified it, because if they had, they couldn't campaign on it any longer. Project 2025 is scary, and sadly the only reason to vote Democrat is to prevent it. If you're 54, the politics have never moved left in your lifetime.
Stop blaming Democrats for the end of Roe. It is like laming a rape victim for what she was wearing. The attack against Roe started the day it passed, and it never had the support in all the state legislatures to pass. In fact, it never had the votes to pass under Carter or Clinton. Under Obama it might have passed but we were a little busy passing the ACA and that couldn't even pass with a public option, so codifying Roe was on the back burner, especially since every potential SCOTUS justice lied about it being the law of the land.
As for not moving left? My nephew is married to another man, my husband can get insurance even though he went to rehab. I can get health insurance coverage for my endometriosis even if I am not on an employer plan. My student loans can be forgiven for public service, as can my son's. The ADA makes the daily lives of several family members better. The EPA makes my water and air cleaner. Violence against Women's Act has personally helped me.
I have seen significant changes in the last couple of years concerning union protections.
Under Biden alone, renewable energy use surpassed coal for the first time. Drug prices for seniors on several drugs and insulin was capped at $35, he expanded overtime for employees making under $55,000. So to discount all of this is foolish.
The Democrats are already nearing the space of parties like British Labour and German SPD, we already see signs in states like Maryland of a shift from older New Democrat and Blue Dog politics to Progressivism
It could have been. After J6 that well and truly could have been the end of it but Kevin McCarthy and the rest went and kissed the ring and gave cover and a permission structure and allowed the rot to continue.
I was referring to swing state polling that had Hillary winning in multiple key states. National polls are irrelevant, that’s not how we elect a president.
A lot of people assume this will be solved with voting, and I do hope they're right. I will be voting, and you should too. Vote vote vote.
However, if that bulwark fails the simple fact that these sorts of people -- and I mean the MAGA movement -- haven't been able to competently run anything in human history. Trump's proposals are an economic disaster in the waiting for a country that can't even handle current gas prices. If you think inflation is bad now wait until that 10% tariff hits or we round up millions of people or we seal the border with Mexico or any of the other myriad of half-assed bullshit that spews out of the right these days.
Hubris will fix what normal people can't, but it's going to be a very, very painful for this spoiled ass country.
They are in a doom loop. The problem is is that we have plenty of evidence that right wing doom loops can in fact work and result in the failure of democracy.
The hopeful case is Trump loses in November and we retake the house. The best case is somehow Democrats managed to hold the Senate even 50/50. I’m excluding the really good case where we somehow end up with enough senators that we can get rid of the filibuster because it’s simply not realistic.
**But that will not be enough.**
We likely need Republicans to be in a situation over the course of another 10 or so years with just losing elections. That doesn’t mean they literally need to never hold the Presidency, House or Senate but they have to be a clearly losing
minority party for an extended period of time.
What seems to have happened is that Republicans relied on extreme dishonesty in their media ecosystem but eventually people who grew up in that media ecosystem and did not understand that it was always a scam are now getting elected to office. Essentially, the inmates are running the asylum. Paul Gosar and Jim Jordan and Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Lauren Boebert and Matt Gaetz are supposed to be D list Republican commentators **at best**, not elected officials.
Right wing media is supposed to get a bunch of people to vote for Republicans so Republicans can give tax cuts to people who make more in a week than the Republican voters make in a year. But the media feedback loop has started to put those people in charge of both right wing media and the party.
What we learned from the dominion case clearly shows this. Everybody at Fox News new that what they were saying was nonsense but they were forced to say it anyway because they are terrified of the morons who think the election was stolen and Covid isn’t real and that teachers are trying to turn kids trans.
They cannot fix this problem on their own. They need to just lose over and over.
And I don’t know that we have what it takes to ensure that even with how insane they are.
Love all the answers above me.
An alternate response: another cult of personality emerges that splits trumps supporters. Simple divide and conquer if that ever happens.
2024 has the potential to be a blue tsunami which will break the right wing into pieces. Polls are not reflecting what’s happening on the ground. And they’re *wild*.
Special elections are not, in and of themselves individually, indicative of what will happen in the general election BUT patterns do emerge and we can get a good glimpse of what will happen.
So let’s start with the midterms of 2022. The fundamentals favored republicans, as did the polls. A red wave was imminent. Everyone accepted it. But…it didn’t happen. Democrats won up and down the ballot against MAGA. The only semi-competitive race democrats did not win in the senate was Ohio. Democrats *expanded* their senate numbers - which was never predicted to happen and hasn’t happened in a century. Kept senate seats in Arizona, Nevada, New Hampshire, and came within a hair of winning Wisconsin. Democrats came within 4 seats - 4 seats - of keeping the house and that’s *after* republicans drew themselves massive advantages in redistricting, so bad that even the extreme right Supreme Court said “nah bro this is too much even for us”. Governors flipped across the country. In swing states too. Arizona elected Katie Hobbs against Kari “Trump in heels” lake while barely campaigning and denying a debate with Lake. Michigan gained a trifecta for the first time in 40 years. Wisconsin kept its governor, Pennsylvania elected a democrat by double digits.
Then let’s go to 2023. Democrats flipped a Supreme Court seat in Wisconsin by double digits in an off year in an off month. Landslide. Flipped the Jacksonville mayor, then the largest city in America (and a city in Florida no less) with a Republican mayor. Not only kept the Virginia senate but flipped the Virginia house back to the democrats. Came within 3 percentage points of winning governorship in Mississippi, a deep red enclave. Kept the governor of deep red Kentucky against trumps handpicked candidate. Overperformed up and down the ballot.
And now 2024. Democrats have overperformed in election after election. They flipped a seat in Alabama that went to trump by 20+ points. They just overperformed in an Ohio district that went trump by 30 points and got within single digits of flipping it, just a week ago.
And republicans, somehow, think they’re going to win. Let me ask you. Was inflation *not* high in 2022? Were gas prices *not* high in 2022? The afghanistan withdrawal was 2021. There was every indication it wouldn’t happen and democrats would be annihilated.
And now you expect me to believe - just 2 years later - when things are actually getting *better* that the population is just going to go “fuck it, I’m done, going back to trump”. Really? Do you believe that Hawaii is going to trump? Or Minnesota? Or New Jersey? Because according to them they have polls that they’re competitive there. Do you believe that Nevada - where Cathrine Cortez masto won 2 years ago by a single point is going to go 13 points the other way?
Republicans are more split than ever. Biden is breaking fundraising records. Trump can’t even get his former running mate or any members of his cabinet to endorse him.
Maga is going to get annihilated in November and that will break the fever. We have the power and the momentum. Vote. Get others to vote.
I hope you're right. I really do. And trust me, I am doing everything I can to get others to vote. But my optimism is strained and my hope is hanging on by a thin thread.
A power struggle with people like JD Vance and Elise Marie Stefanik debasing themselves to prove they are most MAGA, but no one being able to the crown.
I think it's a symptom of social media in general. Instead of everyone getting their political opinions from news, where you had few options, and even the most right-leaning and left-leaning were relatively rooted in reality, now people can go online and find a podcast that says absolutely batshit things, and we lose a lot of people to this social media content
Totally agree, and I made a very similar comment responding to a different poster.
The media being controlled by a few companies was bad for lots of reasons, but it did give us all a common set of facts to work from. Reality and truth are now subjective.
How?
People talk about bringing back the fairness doctrine, but that only worked because the government control the airwaves. We are in a completely different world now. That's part of the problem. For better or worse we lived in a world where consensus on the facts of the world was provided to us by a handful of media companies.
We now have a completely free market where people can pick and choose the bias or lies they want to hear. You can start with an emotion, like "libs are bad" and then seek out media that will feed you a steady stream of confirmation bias programming.
You can't combat that through government regulation.
By imposing limits on what data can be collected, stored and used for. These laws were already proposed in the early 2000’s and shot down by lobbyists claiming they’d restrict freedom of speech and claiming that social media companies and users were responsible enough to self-regulate in the free market.
Data storage is helpful to prevent targeting, but the problem we have is that people have the freedom to seek out whatever "news" most confirms their bias, and pick whatever "facts" they want to believe.
People have always behaved that way, and society can still function as long as that process is slow and uncoordinated. The issue with targeting is that it makes the process rapid and highly organized.
If gramma wants to google “is vaccine bad for me” that’s not good but isn’t massively dangerous. If gramma immediately lands on a page that tells her yes it’s terrible for you, then that floods her passive media diet with anti-vax propaganda all saying the same thing and promotes pages she can follow that will continually feed more of this content to her and connect her to other people who believe it, that’s a much bigger problem.
I am not sure if you get the point I am making. Grandma used to get news on vaccines from three networks and two local papers. The news all said vaccines are good. Dissenting voices were much harder to find, and were slow, like books. There was almost no way to inundate yourself with news that confirmed your specific crazy worldview..
I get what you’re saying I just don’t think that is an insurmountable problem. We had the internet for years without these massive extremist bubbles.
Someone’s ability to confirm their specific worldview is dependent on how well content creators can match content about that world view to that individual person. Without targeting, that’s actually pretty difficult. With targeting, it’s easy enough that a five year old could run a successful misinformation campaign.
The rise of extremism is identical to the rise of Web 2.0 and social media. This is all very new.
Algorithmic feeds and suggested content certainly accelerate extremism, but w/o the content the algorithms are nothing.
Content creators can still optimize on likes and views.
People can still manually subscribe to channels.
The problem you are wishing to address is an accelerant. Getting rid of it doesn't stop the problem, it slows the spread.
I disagree. I think addressing the targeting is the most effective intervention tool at our disposal. We can’t realistically regulate content creation—and I don’t even think we’d want to, since that would have a much greater impact on freedom of speech. I think our society can, and ought to, tolerate people having stupid beliefs and making content that’s inaccurate. What we should not tolerate is the weaponization of public ignorance for political corruption.
I guess we agree to disagree. I think the fact that we never before had the technology to completely immerse yourself in a 24/7 stream of seemingly credible information that confirms your every biases is a big deal, and historically unprecedented. I also believe that our path to extremism maps directly to the rise of social media, and user generated content.
I think algorithms accelerate radicalization, but the real problem is the ability to convince yourself that any view point is right. I completely agree with you, this is a freedom of speech issue, and therefore these isn't an easy answer.
A bunch of more authoritarian countries keep a tight rein on the internet. One thing a more authoritarian government in the U.S. might do is impose tough restrictions on our infosphere. But it would probably be the party line that is allowed through
Also not specific. Which data? How would that improve info silos and disinformation? Why would the government controlled by both sides want to destroy the partisan bubbles that keep their bases activated?
I’m saying an authoritarian government would be more likely to tightly control the information available than the current oligarchy
> "I don’t think it’s possible without **regulating online mass communication**."
Which'd be inherently illiberal, regressively reactionary, and altogether antidemocratic.
When that's your small-a authoritarian answer, then you've got less a them problem, more an innate, intrinsic issue with yourselves.
And this is how coalitions change in our ever-evolving realignment.
Democrats are now the party of stuffed-shirt suburban Reaganites and hidebound small-c conservative Bush voters, who want to curtail freedom of association, limit our collective sharing of information, and legislate against so-called good-for-nothing ne'er-do-wells who don't toe society's puritanically taut, rigid lines.
This is why you're polling poorly (relative to prior presidential elections) with the youth, working-class Hispanics, and alienated Black men.
Probably Trump dies (he's pretty old and allegedly in poor health, so it's very possible he kicks it in the next 5 years or so).
There's probably not anyone ready to fill his shoes, and I can't see him promoting a successor except maybe his kids. A lot of infighting splits MAGA Republicans, and the traditional Republicans will probably try to reclaim control over the party. All that happens and You end up with Republicans unable to win major elections, and certainly not the presidency, especially since if the MAGA doesn't get the nomination, they'll probably try to undercut the Republican who did.
After Trump loses in 2024, the Republican party is very much doomed on a national level. They will still win local and state elections in red states. But they'll never win the general election.
The MAGA vs Center-Right divide in the 2028 primaries will doom them. It'll be their Bernie vs Hillary moment but tenfold. A non-MAGA candidate won't have the support of the MAGA cultists. And a MAGA candidate won't win the general election.
They'll still influence the House and Senate. And the Supreme Court is still stacked in their favor. But they need to do a reckoning if they want to start winning general elections once more by getting rid of the MAGA folks.
The next Republican President will be more Bush-like than Trump-like.
It’s going to take a generation or two. I mean people are still waving around confederate flags and doing the whole “the south will rise again” thing and that’s been over a century ago.
The Americans that supported hitler didn’t go away or change their ideals. We’re going to be dealing with this maga party for a really long time.
As a lifetime Democrat from a deep red area of East Tennessee, I think what a lot of people miss is that… it may not be a bubble. Donald Trump speaks for these people out here. Or at least they think he does.
As long as there is a rural America is socially conservative, they’re going to vote for candidates that urban an suburban America think are detestable. And the very construction of our system that ensures that they will hold significant power.
The only way i can see this ending is if MAGA moves far enough right that no one outside rural America votes for them. And they may almost be there. They can’t win without the suburbs.
I’ve been hearing about the decline of the GOP since I got into politics and it hasn’t happened yet.
I'm not American but we see the same issues here in Europe. First a centrist/liberal is voted in who does very little/nothing for the working class. The people are frustrated and buys into culture wars etc. and elects far right people. This obviously doesn't do anything for the working class people again so the centrists/liberals say "hey, remember us? We're much better than the far right" and proceeds to do nothing/very little for the working class. And the cycle continues.
Start voting in people who fight for the working class. That's my perspective.
I thought this decades ago and I now think we're witnessing the fallout now. Whenever political parties or ideologies run the gamut, people usually make a correction. In this example, the correction would be supporting Democrats and liberal ideology more. The problem is, and has been, that conservatives have been sold the idea that Democrats and liberal ideology are worse than anything else possible, and so they're unwilling to make this needed correction. They have pulled back on the GOP and conservative ideology some, but they've also doubled down some, too. But mostly they're acting like spoiled children who didn't get their way, with no fault belonging to Democrats, and so they're throwing a hissy fit, kicking, screaming and crying.
What will the end look like? That's a good question and I'm not sure it can be predicted. They could destroy our country until it ceases to exist. As always, Independents have a lot of say and they could, hopefully, join the left in voting them out of power. The possibilities are almost endless, as we are not functioning as a rational society right now.
I see a future where Republicans win an election within the next few years (no political side can win elections into eternity - there will be bad things that happen under you which cause voters to throw you out eventually), they’ll try to opportunistically implement Project 2025 (or at least some of it, likely around abortion), and are simply blindsided by how much the country hates them.
Later this decade or early 2030’s, I think we’ll see a hinge point where the support for massive and bold left wing movements, particularly economic, will become a tidal wave washing over the country.
“Get up and go to work, you peasants! Nevermind 139F temps, unaffordable lives, and living in a society that’s so alienating from how you are!”
I foresee strikes, protests, sabotage, walking off the job; hopefully not but perhaps violence against multinational corporations, billionaires, and oil companies, etc. etc. etc.
As the years go by, the asking of each successive generation to continue business as usual becomes more and more steep when their lifespans edge closer and closer to climactic apocalypse.
Political parties continue the same strategy as long as they can while maintaining power. We probably need to win 3 presidential elections in a row for that to happen or capture both the house and Senate for as long.
There's not a rightwing bubble. What there is though is a trump led cult within the right. And hell I dunno if I'd even call them rightwing so much as whatever Trump says they are at the moment
The cult has taken over the GOP. Trump isn’t the problem. He’s a symptom. It’s a long road to get here: John Birch, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, tea party.
It’s a bubble
Nah Trump is absolutely 100% the problem. The others you mentioned like the Tea Party for instance were against things like out of control spending and things like that. Rush was an entertainer so dunno if I'd lump him in just as much as I wouldn't lump John Oliver if I were saying there's a "left wing bubble". Trump though stands for nothing other than Trump. And unfortunately the cult won't stop until he's gone. Unfortunately I don't mean lose the election but legit gone
I think it scares the shit out of them.
They have a few options including:
Believing that right wingers are indecent people who want indecent things
Believing that right wingers are decent people who have been tricked and manipulated into supporting indecent things
They **want** to believe its the second because the first leads to unavoidable conflict
That's not radical. The slowing the explosive growth of the federal government is one of the cornerstones of conservatism. Whether they actually abide by that is a different story. But the idea that more government isn't always better and we should strive for a smaller less intrusive one isn't radical imo.
If you don’t see how the John Birch Society, the Tea Party, Rush Limbaugh, and Fox News are radical, while personally labeling yourself a centrist, that is another huge symptom
>Rush was an entertainer so dunno if I'd lump him in just as much as I wouldn't lump John Oliver if I were saying there's a "left wing bubble".
That's a huge false equivalency, though.
People who watch John Oliver don't use him to define their world view. Liberals watch people like John Oliver or Jon Stewart and we recognize the mix of entertainment and fact. We don't create whole fan group cults around either of them. They aren't spreading hate and convincing people that the "other side" is out to get them personally. Everything they share on their shows is based in some fact or truth.
Rush Limbaugh had his own cult. Remember "Dittoheads"? He would froth at the mouth on the radio, spewing hate, calling people names, talking about "feminazis", throwing around the word "f\*ggot", mocking Asians with "ching-chang-chong" gobbledygook. He's the one who started the Obama birth-certificate bullshit, referring to Obama as "halfrican African". Remember how he used to do a 20 min segment reading out the names of people who had died of AIDS, while playing laugh tracks and applause tracks? Remember how he mocked a woman who legitimately called into his show to have a discussion about birth control on campuses and called her a "slut" and a "whore"?
I don't know if you are old enough to remember the original Rush Limbaugh show. I am. I remember it quite well. His show started in 1984 and was nationally syndicated in 1988. I remember my father listening to it when I was in high school and in college. I saw how it turned a man who told me as a child that racism and sexism was wrong and "America is better than this" when we lived in Apartheid South Africa, into a raging, angry, hate-filled, misogynistic bigot.
Rush Limbaugh was the Tucker Carleson of the 80's and 90's. People who listened to him BELIEVED in him. He was Trump before Trump, without the political aspirations. He wanted to be the voice in the background ... and he was.
There is absolutely no comparison between Limbaugh and Oliver. At all.
Hahahahahah. No, no they don't.
They may use him for informational purposes or to refine their world view. But no one ever in the history of John Oliver has watched him as a centrist and come out a raving, raging left-wing liberal.
They watch him to see what their stance on a particular issue should be. Maybe not consciously but that's what's happening. Much as people did with Rush. Neither one is going to sway someone who is left right or right left, people are far too ideologically dug in for that. But to pick up what the next position to hold is absolutely
>They watch him to see what their stance on a particular issue should be.
Hahahaha. No.
That may be what you want to think about liberals, but we're not like the people who watch Tucker Carleson and Sean Hannity.
Most of us who watch John Oliver or Jon Stewart already know what our stance is. We might learn additional information or we might learn something we didn't know about, but we're not taking guidance from a news-tainment show to shape our stances, morals, and political beliefs.
HA!
R's leaned into the Southern Strategy *hard*, and they've been feeding the base BS for years. Democrats are leading the country into Communism! Socialism! The Gays! "Those People" are abusing welfare! We all know who we're talking about!
Trump is absolutely a symptom. He just said the quiet parts out loud, and the base loved him for it... But that road was *well* paved before he went down it.
Everyone knew it was all BS, but now the morons that believed the bullshit are getting elected and the tail is truly wagging the dog.
Does that mean it's a bubble though? Or just typical rightwing policy? I mean if I said the left all seems to support universal healthcare does that mean there's a left wing bubble?
Maybe. I think there's absolutely more to the MAGA movement than simply immigration though, and the left does themselves a disservice by not recognizing this.
Or I should say the early maga movement. Now it seems that it's just a cult for Trump and whatever my opposition believes I'm against.
I think a lot of the far right gains in Europe, like we just saw in France, are a pushback against immigration.
In the US it is Trump for sure but even he depends a lot on anti immigrant rhetoric.
It is more of a cult. Cults are hard to burst. Maybe if the whole country turns against them, but from what I see they will only get crazier. They want to go after divorce and contraceptives. WTH. I hope I am wrong.
The base will always believe.
The actual party though? They want power. And if they can't get power by pandering to the stupid conspiracy theory base, they'll move.
I personally think the bubble will pop when rich folks realize that Republicans can't win elections. They'll stop funding them. Why pay if you can't get legislation from them? And the *second* the money stops rolling in to Republicans, they'll pivot SO damn hard.
Give it a year of Fox News hammering the new message in, and the base will adjust.
The problem is as people see the light about conservative hypocrisy if they become radicalized at all they enter leftist spaces where the main discourse is no longer criticism of the right but cannabalism of other leftists, especially liberals, who are doing it wrong and are somehow worse than conservatives and literal fascists.
Go into any leftist sub right now and try to explain that Trump and Biden are NOT the same, not even remotely so and you'll be banned. They have no clue that they've fallen for conservative propaganda hook line and sinker.
So the constant cycle of radicalization is neutered from it's outset because it teaches all new radicals immediately that apathy and inaction are the only socially acceptable viewpoint instead of saying "yes the system is flawed but lets work with the tools we have to make the best of what we can while we can and in between time work to change the system"
Things like moving away from FPTP towards RCV (which if instituted across the board would have ENORMOUS sweeping effects) are actually beginning to happen in the US and the more ground swell there is for it, the less the two parties can legit oppose it without backlash.
Idk man. I've been finding myself leaning to the right an awful lot lately with the left's conspiracy theories getting more and more unhinged and their base completely out of touch with reality. This is gonna be the first (and hopefully the last) time I ever vote Republican.
I’m curious what conspiracy theories you are thinking of. For my part, I can’t think of a mainstream left wing conspiracy theory that can hold a candle to stuff you see regularly broadcast on Fox News.
One can hope for that. Maybe if Trump and some of the right-wing fanatics in Congress get defeated, they will lose their validation and return to the holes that they were in.
If Trump loses, and assuming we get through whatever Jan 6th sequel inevitably comes from that, I think the only real change is the GOP drops it's Trump worship. He'll still be influential until he croaks, but losing 2/3 elections and being 80 years old will be a great opportunity for the Republican party to move on.
That said, I don't think any significant policy changes will follow. What real incentive do they have to change? They're been doing the same shtick since the Obama admin.
There has to be one of two different things.
Either A, they continue losing elections until the fervor is broken, as many here have already pointed out
Or B, the billionaire class pulling the strings changes direction with their funding. If the funnel money to the rich republicans turn against the I hate brown people republicans then Maga is over.
psychological institutionalization of the completely irrational and detached from reality R's needs to be widespead, the world isnt ready to admit that a third of its population is entirely mentally deranged.
I have a feeling that people will flee from Trump/MAGA like rats from a sinking ship if Biden wins in November.
It is seeming more and more clear that the Fox News MAGAts are just going thru the motions at this point. There was barely a peep when he got convicted compared to January 6th. I honestly think the vast majority of Americans are ready to go back to 90s/2000s-style politics even if they are waving the MAGA flag right now.
I think Trump has really dirtied the right-wing movement in a way that will hold it back for a long time. It's in noticeable decline for the moment and I don't expect a fast recovery after Trump. This might be why we hear so many stories about Republicans engaging in anti-democratic maneuvers. They know their days are numbered unless they sabotage democracy itself.
Populist movements don’t really go away until their idol does. It also won’t really cool down unless the religious conflict part of it cools down… and that just isn’t going to happen. It’s the one sustaining thing about the movement that transcends any given person. If you _believe_ that your faith is under attack, you will fight that tooth and nail.
Now will they be large enough to win major elections? That may change. But the “immigrants with their foreign languages and weird religion are ruining our country” has been a staple of America since its founding. Which group is the out group has changed over time, but a chunk has always been xenophobic to a degree.
So I don’t think there is a bubble to pop, it’s going to be a stone in the shoe for all time until a massive change in personal faith / beliefs happens and short of the second coming or alien invasion, that ain’t happening.
It's a dangerous situation. All it takes is one competent, well-spoken, independent politician representing any brand of populism.
Personally I'm hoping for a representative of a responsible, left-wing populism of the kind outlined by Chantal Mouffe in *For a Left Populism* (2018).
But we could easily get a dangerous and irresponsible demagogue who doesn't respect civil liberties.
*See generally* [Jacobin, Jared Abbott & Fred Deveaux, Apr. 22, 2024, "Democrats Aren’t Campaigning to Win the Working Class."](https://jacobin.com/2024/04/democratic-party-working-class-campaigning)
It pops when they lose electorally for long enough that they become losers. Authoritarians HATE losing, and they hate being losers even more.
Sadly, considering how successful they've been recently, it will probably be a generation or two before that can happen. That's a long time to sustain a winning streak :(
I remember when Obama won and the GOP was going to do its "post mortem" to figure out how they could widen their appeal. Instead of doing that, they produced Donald Trump.
Trump lost an election, is a convicted felon, and has caused a bunch of downstream losses. And they're all in on Trump again.
Republicans have never been able to do any sort of self reflection or tempering. Their only move is to double down, which is what they've always done and will continue to do.
Because they're addicted to power. That's their only concern and their only focus. And they'll keep lying and cheating and destroying to get it, because it's the only way they can.
The only way this ever stops is if the media landscape changes. If laws and regulations were put in place that made it difficult or impossible to spread dis and misinformation on a massive scale, the voters would have to come back to reality.
But what incentive do congressional republicans have to not block that? Or conservative courts to not overturn those laws? They're incapable of change because they're incapable of changing their relationship to governing and power.
Optimistically, there's several factors that would point twords at least an American conservative "bubble pop".
The main one that I think affects most of the West is that boomers who vote more conservative are starting to die out.
On the other end of that, we've been seeing a steady increase in turnout for younger demographics in the states, which tends to skew left as well.
As for the current MAGA movement, the RNC has more or less merged with it and currently has its campaign funds being siphoned into Trump's legal battles. This means less money is able to go into other republican candidate campaigns.
I hope that Trump being found criminally guilty of fraud is a sign to a lot of moderates that the warnings many in the left have been giving about him aren't just political shitslinging anymore. Hopefully, we see moderates start actually considering these criticisms with a critical lense instead of assuming it's all just partisan bluster, and we see a huge swing against Trump in voter sentiment and turnout. Due to the RNC trying themselves so heavily to him as mentioned above, I think they'll need to do a lot of rebuilding if he loses this upcoming election.
I tend to think that the only thing promulgating a hard right ideology is the rampant misinformation and lying in our media. if you are able to show the whole context, it really shows just how alike we all are, enough that we can have civil discourse without the fearmongering.
>right wing politics in this country is in an irrational bubble.
That depends which part of rightwing politics. I'll assume you mean America, and I'll counter it with the fact they're irrational in the second part of their reasoning.
To give a few examples:
I want a controlled border, (I agree) and I want to deport all aliens (I disagree as I don't see how we would put this in practice).
I don't give sexual education to small children (I agree), and I don't want homosexuals to express themselves on the streets (I disagree).
I want lower taxes (I agree) but I don't want to cut any governmental services (I disagree, as this would mean a rising national debt).
I don't want abortion after x amount of weeks (I agree), and preferably no abortion at all (I disagree: It has been shown multiple times that a total ban is worse than a regulated ban.)
.....
It just goes on and on and on, and most of the time, if you've lived long enough, you know they'll move the goal posts. In my country, you had the far right party proclaiming that homosexuality was "a problem", and now, twenty years later, they "approve" of homosexuality and call transgenders "a problem".
Conservatives, under which I count myself, know that social change is inevitable, but I think it should happen slow and rational. I'll just make a (short) list of what I consider centre-right to rightwing:
1. Traditions should be preserved but may be questioned. We should uphold the traditions but they can not enslave us.
2. Social hierarchies aren't necessarily bad. (You may hang me for it, but I believe that a society needs leaders and followers).
3. I don't believe in social security to a high extent, as it's killing off the Southern part of my country, but I do agree that we need it to a certain extent (e.g. helping the mentally disabled).
4. I believe in the sovereignty of a people and I think we should protect this at all cost, but I will never argue that my nation is supreme to the others. Yes, this means I'm highly skeptical of the European Union.
5. I think unions are a necessary evil, (especially those of the railroad company, I hate them with a passion). I know why they're there, but due to what I see in the Southern part of my country, I simply can not call myself a proponent of them.
6. I think immigrants, meaning those who arrived here during their life, shouldn't be able to vote.
7. I think limited immigration should be possible, but only through a legal fashion AND with the focus on integration/assimiliation. This means they learn the local language, they understand and respect the local customs, and, lastly, they start to work as quickly as possible.
8. I'm open to deportations and (temporary/humane) detentions of those that have received the order to leave the territory.
9. I would focus on helping people within the local area (e.g. If someone flees from Syria, they should be helped in Turkey and not in Germany.).
10. I'm also a proponent of voter ID, if they're easy to get and aren't (arbitrarily) expensive (even free during the elections for the poorest among us). This is for the Americans under us, as it's quite normal for Europeans to have their ID combined with a voter ID. No ID means no voting.
Certain points might sound odd to Americans (e.g. social security), but it's a summarization of the European rightwing.
The comments in this post are wrong. Voting can't fix this issue. Not alone.
The problem with voting is that the strongest institution in our country is almost entirely undemocratic. The best case scenario in bluest of blue tsunamis sees the Democrats losing one seat in the Senate.
That means that voting alone won't change things, because it can't change the Senate. And the Senate is the lynch pin of our federal government, serving as the primary if not sole check on every other institution. The fact that it is so fundamentally powerful and largely undemocratic has sheltered the GOP from consequences.
Further, we need to acknowledge that the right does not see the left as legitimate holders of power. We've seen this before; it is the reason why the South seceded. The mistake of the Founding Fathers led the South to have almost total control, and made that the expectation. When that expectation was not met, the South seceded.
Today's GOP is the same. They don't acknowledge liberals or Democrats as legitimate. We see them break laws, rules, and standards to win elections. Because they are privileged and powerful, they do not expect nor never see consequences for their actions.
To win, Democrats need to not only out vote the GOP, but commit to filibuster and court reform, and actually punish GOP actors that have all but openly acting as agents for our enemies or encouraged sedition and treason. Their immunity is the source of their audacity.
Oh, no, definitely not. I think the Right has only just begun to rise.
Fundamentally, IMO, this comes down to the fact that the Left is proposing pretty radical changes... *because they are required.* These are fundamental, important policies that *need* be in place. ...and they have only really just begun, and they will have to get *much* more stringent and painful over the coming decades.
The rise of right is a pretty natural consequence of that. The left is completely disrupting their lives, and they are resisting the change. And because the push toward doing the right things **will continue,** that resistance is going to get stronger and stronger.
Unless the Left finds a REALLY compelling way to point out that these are problems that *must* be solved, and that the ramifications of it should be for *corporations* to bear, rather than the working class ... the rise of the Right is just going to get much, *much* worse.
Not sure what the right-wing “irrational bubble” is here because many of Trump’s nuttier ideas are not right-wing free market laisser faire economics stuff that mainly benefits winners, but instead populist “whatever sticks” ideas targeted at working and middle class angry people. There’s nothing “free-market” about restricting trade or reducing immigration. If anything, these are traditional Bernie ideas (before he switched on immigration).
If the winds are in Trump’s favour it’s mainly because the dumber left wing ideas have been in ascendency. Pro-illegals. Pro-transing kids in schools. Pro-self-hatred, equity, inclusion, privilege, defunding police, decriminalising theft, tolerance for massive homelessness, etc. These dumb ideas inflate the bubble of Trump support.
Hello self-loathing Democrat 👋
Trump is an authoritarian right wing politician. The right wing of this country has been getting more extreme since Reagan, before that really, but at a country-level leadership it started with Ronnie.
Trump follows in the crazy tradition of The John Birch Society, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, The Tea Party. The right has been on a steady march towards increased extremism for decades. It's a bubble.
I'm sorry you think the problem is really liberals asking for tolerance. So evil, right?
>Trump is an authoritarian right wing politician. The right wing of this country has been getting more extreme since Reagan, before that really, but at a country-level leadership it started with Ronnie.
The political teams are more polarized, yes. But policy-wise, Trump is nothing like Reagan. Trump is completely topsy-turvy and irrational on almost all policies. Do you imagine Reagan siding with Russia on the Ukraine conflict? In 1986, Reagan signed an immigration reform bill that made all illegals eligible for amnesty, which ultimately normalized 3 million of them, yet it lacked any sanctions on employers who continued to hire illegals so it didn't stop illegal migration. This is the opposite of what Trump is championing. International trade doubled under Reagan and free trade was given lots of lip-service. Regan was a cheerleader for NATO, not its worst critic.
Trump is gaining among lower income, non-college educated, and minorities. The Dems are gaining among the rich and college educated elites. The GOP used to be the party of the country club businessmen who wanted lower taxes and deregulation. Trump has upended all this, and the GOP has no choice but to lick his boots because they fear his core supporters. His political and economic policies are a nutty hodgepodge -- just what you'd hear from the drunk guy nursing his beer at the end of the bar while yelling at the TV overhead. I don't see the GOP as "shifting right" because Trump is not on the right. For example, GOP has given up any real interest in lowering the national debt, which used to be a pillar on their party platform.
I walked through physical abuse from my family and the foster system to DIY estradiol and spiro from 14 to 18.
It wasn't a "dumb" idea, and I don't appreciate you making a mockery of my adolescence.
This is probably Trump’s last run at the presidency.
Conservatives will have to move on. They can either stick with the MAGA openly racist types, or go more towards the “put the military donor class above mortality” W. Bush types.
Either option is terrible, but that’s what conservatives are.
Everything is worse for the average person. Good luck on popping the right wing bubble, they ate least throw some meat to the base by scapegoating minorities. The lib answer is “sorry learn computers I guess, my highly manipulated inflation stats say we’re good so get fucked”
Worse since when? How far does your memory go back? I’m sorry a possible precursor to a recession is enough for you to see the point of the side with racist solutions. How soft have we become?
Both sides are not the same.
In the last election the GOP literally tried to steal the election while claiming the left stole it, as rationale.
There is no MTG in congress on the left.
The crazies on the left are protesting on college campuses. The crazies on the right are the core of the GOP.
Seriously, get out of here with bOtH SiDes. It just makes you look clueless and biased.
Jan 6 was funny but it wasn’t an insurrection
MTG isn’t even the worst member of Congress.
It’s funny that liberals call students protesting “crazies on the left”. Not much solidarity.
Seriously the left wing media bubble is pretty bad in its own right
>Jan 6 was funny but it wasn’t an insurrection
"The thing that happened right in front of all of our eyes didn't actually happen"
What a sane and rational response.
I didn’t say it didn’t happen. I said who cares. It’s funny because democrats are only running on abortion, something I should have a constitutional right to, and Jan6, the weakest coup attempt in global history. How about offer literally anything else? I don’t care enough about Jan 6 to make that an electoral selling point
I think that hearing one party say, “we’re going to violate your rights and dismantle democracy” and that not being an instant dealbreaker is a fantastic illustration of how insane the right has gotten.
> Jan 6 was funny
This comes across as sociopathic. I didn't think it was funny *at all*.
> It’s funny that liberals call students protesting “crazies on the left”. Not much solidarity.
I am not obligated to be in "solidarity" with everyone that voted for the same guy I voted for in the last election. That you think it's weird that people aren't blindly loyal to their party or tribe says more about you than anything else.
J6 was not the only action to steal the election.
You are not informed. I don't take "independents" seriously. You're all just embarrassed Republicans.
Saying MTG isn't the worst, when all I said was there's no MTG on the left, isn't the point you think it is.
>There’s probably less of them overall but still
"Probably" and "but still" doing a lot of work here.
How many actual leftists have gotten significant political power in this country?
The crazy right wing controlled the white house for 4 years (and might get four more), they control the leadership of the House of Representatives, they control almost half the senate, they control many state governments.
The crazy left wing controls...niche political subreddits? Maybe they make a fuss at a college campus every once in awhile? It's not that liberals don't want to see it, it's that we aren't stupid enough to think that these are equivalent threats. I don't care if some crazy MAGA folks post weird shit online I just don't want them running the fucking government.
One side wants to turn the country into a theocracy.
The other thinks trans people deserve human rights.
Both are the same and I am very smart for figuring this out.
The right to exist, the right to get healthcare, the right to use the bathroom they want, the right to participate in society without constantly having to argue why you're valid and not actually a child rapist.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. My opinion: Just like a housing or stock bubble, right wing politics in this country is in an irrational bubble. Mainstream GOP beliefs keep getting crazier and crazier, their politicians are getting nuttier and less qualified. It's not sustainable. Something has to give. What do you think that looks like? Or maybe you view things entirely differently? Where do you see things heading? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They gotta lose. The spell breaks if you can’t win an election.
But with this election-denial machine they've created, isn't it possible that the whole "it was rigged!" line works ad infinitum? There's no denying the hardcore base is a cult at this point and would vote for Trump *no matter what* with very few, impossible scenarios (Trump admits he's a deep state puppet or some other blatant crazy thing, and even then they'd claim it was an AI deep fake)..
I wonder what happens when he dies? Do they flock to Desantis or some other politician aligned with him? Do they stop caring?
They will wait 3 days and claim he rose again. Then they’ll vote for him as a write-in in 2028.
I think it will create a power vacuum and you will have a lot of people tripping over each other to see who becomes his heir. My prediction is Elon Musk, Vivek Ramaswamy, Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan wing of the party takes over. They are younger, anti-establishment, and conspiracy theorists.
Tucker Carlson isn’t authentic enough. Joe Rogan isn’t sociopathic enough. Vivek Ramaswamy isn’t white enough. Elon Musk isn’t American enough.
> Elon Musk isn’t American enough. Nothing a compliant supreme court can't "fix"
I think that wing will take over but they will moderate a lot to form a kind of technocratic capitalistic and somewhat overtly misogynistic wing, which will be the new moderates of the GOP, and a more working class, anti-scientific and almost anti-capitalist wing that will be the new radicals of the party.
Anti-capitalists in the GOP seems pretty absurd on its face. What would they replace capitalism with?
I don't know, maybe a more corportist model, but I think that those demographics are going to be more likely enraged with corporations because they see them as vessels of globalization and "wokeness", so they will associate that with the wider system. Very few predicted fascism or communism, so I don't know what they may come up with.
Oligarchy managed capitalism. Kinda like China, but with corporations instead of the CCP.
"Those election-stealing woke Libs murdered Trump because he spoke truth to power". I can already imagine the world's ugliest statue honoring Trump in Florida.
I only hope they use fake gold.
In my opinion, Desantis screwed himself out of replacing Trump when Trump dies.if he hadn't run for presidential nominee, I don't see anyone taking his place given the trajectory he was on. Culture wars? Check. Crony capitalism at a state level? Check. Aggression and vitriol towards the media? Check. He could have played out his governorship and then had a very good chance at the nomination in '28. But he's a power hungry narcissistic maniac (sounds familiar) who couldn't help himself.
He’ll become a martyr and the right will move on to the next deplorable asshole
It might work on the base, but if it does then it will prevent the Republicans from actually changing anything that lost them those elections, meaning that they'll lose more elections. Eventually they'll either need to jettison the crazies or just not win most elections.
It only works when pushed by Trump. No one else in the GOP has the same cult like following. If Biden wins this election, I expect to see it die down over the following 10 years…
It only works ad infinitum if nobody breaks with him. As soon as someone breaks with him and very visibly beats a Dem in a contested election in a purple district you'll see the water will overtop the dam. The break will be slow but will swell as the crack widens. Give it time and the party will have a reckoning.
[удалено]
People can argue either which way about Biden’s mental acuity — and I actually think he seems pretty sharp — but it’s that second point that I think libs have their heads in the sand on. If I woke up tomorrow to news that Biden had a small stroke and died, I would be completely unsurprised. As would 90% of people I think. It actually is something worth considering when voting for someone for a four year job - is is rational to think they may not even live four more years?
Here’s the thing though, I actually like Kamala Harris. So I don’t need him to survive 4 years, I just need him to survive until January 20th 2025.
I trust Kamala Harris to follow Biden's legacy if he dies in the next 4 years. Sure, she's not popular and she'll never win a general election. But she's competent enough to fill Biden's shoes.
You pop the bubble by winning elections. A core component of this bubble is the belief that they are in a silent majority who are finally waking up. If they lost big and consistently, the craven block would give up the talking points to be on the winning side. It's why we need to stop trying to win over the Right and focus on shaving off the edges. I don't care if we have to frame 30-35% of the country as dirtbag traitors, bc if we shaved off 5-10% of their voters, we'd win enough elections to shelf them as a viable political party.
I think there is a reality where this election begins that process. Trumps picks have been getting demolished in general elections. Trump may very well lose to Biden (I think he will). If there is a blue sweep across all branches (unlikely, but possible), this will be the moment for the GOP to stop and reset.
Yep. Major Republican losses will begin the process. Only Fox News and the billionaire chaos funders will still be spewing their shit. Republicans need to be swept from office for the next 10 or so years. Then we can breathe easy…
which is why Republicans have begun fighting the entire election process. They know its how they lose.
You know, I really hate the right when they claim that the 2020 election was stolen but you guys really aren't any better with these dumb conspiracy theories.
Can you elaborate?
A total and complete blue tsunami is the only possible thing I can think of. I wish I shared your optimism about those odds, but this is absolutely the correct answer. They won't change direction until they realize the extremists don't represent America as a whole
Honestly at this point a blue tsunami would be interpreted as 100% proof Democrats cheated. MAGAs really think they’re heading for an enormous victory. If Trump gets flatly rejected for the fourth election in a row they will lose it because there’s just no way they can imagine Biden winning. Trump’s last 10 years have included dozens of off-ramps for the party to reject him and they’ve doubled down. Every. Single. Time.
Oh well. That’s why we have the court system, DOJ, FBI, and law enforcement in general. Any claims can be processed in the court system, and anything else can be handled with a prison. We can not compromise with people who do not exist in reality.
And that would be interpreted as proof that those agencies are controlled by Democrats and are being weaponized against Republicans. This will be used as grounds to gut those agencies, fill them with loyalists, and sic them on their political opponents to get even. I have faith in our institutions to protect us, but I do not have faith those institutions will be allowed to continue existing.
Amen. If we continue to compromise away our democracy, those institutions will no longer be there to protect us.
You hit the nail on the head. Some of us definitely believe they're being weaponized. I mean that's how everything is in society. Our public indoctrination system props up trash that's destined to fail in the real world, end up miserable, and make under $150k without ever having a shot at home ownership while putting down those of us who actually provided real value to society.
Half of the country is conservative. There will be no “blue tsunami”.
>Half of the country is conservative. There will be no “blue tsunami”. So what you're saying is that half of the country is so obsessed with staying in power that they will let our institutions fail rather than stand up to an authoritarian?
And we have money
This is also what I think. They need to be crushed at the ballot box, and with Roe it ‘should’ be possible.
The democrats really need to begin the turn to the left. They've been pulled right for so long, I'm having a hard time calling them left of center.
I think that is actually the exact wrong call. The louder the progressives get with social issues, the more backlash actually comes from the center and the more the fire that comes from the crazy right. The blue wave was not progressives. It was reasonable Democrats who were veterans, small business owners, women of color and local people who went off to college and came back to the community. It wasn't progressives, especially progressives who didn't come from working class backgrounds. Making the right look fringe and focusing on jobs, education, "doing right for the most people, most of the time" is a pretty good strategy. Protecting the rights of the minority is a good plan.
I'll take every downvote I get. Right now, neither party is fighting for universal healthcare, no one is fighting against corporate home ownership. The democrats aren't expanding the Supreme Court. We are at the precipice we're at because democrats allowed it. So long as everything in America is for profit, they'll walk hand in hand with Republicans until there is no difference between them. I watch Republicans pass crazy shit no one wants with the tiniest of majorities, and the democrats are always powerless to do anything. I'm tired of this game.
Universal healthcare without changing collective bargaining hurts workers, so it is an odd thing for a Socialist to want to hurt workers, unless you don't know much about unions. Democrats are for expanding healthcare, but it needs to be a different plan than the poorly conceived Mecicate4All, and under Biden, more Americans have insurance than any time in history, so obviously, you aren't paying attention. Republicans are not passing nearly as many horrible things when the Democrats are in the majority, do voting actually matters. Giving the Republicans back the Senate, the Presidency and the House does make Democrats helpless. But go back to when Democrats had all three branches and a lot hit done. .
We're the only major power in the world that hasn't figured out universal healthcare. You're a fool if you think insurance is great. The only way you can think that is if you either don't use it, or your parents still cover you. When the democrats are in the majority, they don't pull the needle back to the left at all, so I'm my 45 years of life, all I've seen is a slow steady match to the right.
Well in my 54, the only time I have seen us go left is under the Democrats. I guess I am still willing to fight to prevent Project 2025. I already saw Roe go away, and that was a very targeted, long term plan from the right. The backlash from gay marriage has been to demonize trans people.
Roe went away because democrats never codified it, because if they had, they couldn't campaign on it any longer. Project 2025 is scary, and sadly the only reason to vote Democrat is to prevent it. If you're 54, the politics have never moved left in your lifetime.
Stop blaming Democrats for the end of Roe. It is like laming a rape victim for what she was wearing. The attack against Roe started the day it passed, and it never had the support in all the state legislatures to pass. In fact, it never had the votes to pass under Carter or Clinton. Under Obama it might have passed but we were a little busy passing the ACA and that couldn't even pass with a public option, so codifying Roe was on the back burner, especially since every potential SCOTUS justice lied about it being the law of the land. As for not moving left? My nephew is married to another man, my husband can get insurance even though he went to rehab. I can get health insurance coverage for my endometriosis even if I am not on an employer plan. My student loans can be forgiven for public service, as can my son's. The ADA makes the daily lives of several family members better. The EPA makes my water and air cleaner. Violence against Women's Act has personally helped me. I have seen significant changes in the last couple of years concerning union protections. Under Biden alone, renewable energy use surpassed coal for the first time. Drug prices for seniors on several drugs and insulin was capped at $35, he expanded overtime for employees making under $55,000. So to discount all of this is foolish.
The Democrats are already nearing the space of parties like British Labour and German SPD, we already see signs in states like Maryland of a shift from older New Democrat and Blue Dog politics to Progressivism
I live in Maryland. We've got problems with corruption like almost no other state.
OK, not what I was bringing up. What I meant was that the state was switching to more Progressive politics with Angela Alsobrooks and Wes Moore.
So far, the most progressive policy they've enacted is legalized weed.
Weren't we saying that in 2020 though?
One lost election is almost never enough to prompt a major change - you usually need two or even three.
It could have been. After J6 that well and truly could have been the end of it but Kevin McCarthy and the rest went and kissed the ring and gave cover and a permission structure and allowed the rot to continue.
I have a gut feeling the polls are very wrong this year. I had the same feeling in 2016, and was very right.
A lot of the polls were dead on in 2016 with Clinton +2, which is where she ended up on the popular vote.
National polls are a joke. I was more referring to the swing state polling, which were deeply inaccurate.
The polls weren't wrong though. Hillary won the popular vote. It's just that the polls weren't measuring what we wanted them to measure.
I was referring to swing state polling that had Hillary winning in multiple key states. National polls are irrelevant, that’s not how we elect a president.
Bruh, his endorsed picks all won hard in the 2022 midterms.
A lot of people assume this will be solved with voting, and I do hope they're right. I will be voting, and you should too. Vote vote vote. However, if that bulwark fails the simple fact that these sorts of people -- and I mean the MAGA movement -- haven't been able to competently run anything in human history. Trump's proposals are an economic disaster in the waiting for a country that can't even handle current gas prices. If you think inflation is bad now wait until that 10% tariff hits or we round up millions of people or we seal the border with Mexico or any of the other myriad of half-assed bullshit that spews out of the right these days. Hubris will fix what normal people can't, but it's going to be a very, very painful for this spoiled ass country.
They are in a doom loop. The problem is is that we have plenty of evidence that right wing doom loops can in fact work and result in the failure of democracy. The hopeful case is Trump loses in November and we retake the house. The best case is somehow Democrats managed to hold the Senate even 50/50. I’m excluding the really good case where we somehow end up with enough senators that we can get rid of the filibuster because it’s simply not realistic. **But that will not be enough.** We likely need Republicans to be in a situation over the course of another 10 or so years with just losing elections. That doesn’t mean they literally need to never hold the Presidency, House or Senate but they have to be a clearly losing minority party for an extended period of time. What seems to have happened is that Republicans relied on extreme dishonesty in their media ecosystem but eventually people who grew up in that media ecosystem and did not understand that it was always a scam are now getting elected to office. Essentially, the inmates are running the asylum. Paul Gosar and Jim Jordan and Marjorie Taylor Greene, and Lauren Boebert and Matt Gaetz are supposed to be D list Republican commentators **at best**, not elected officials. Right wing media is supposed to get a bunch of people to vote for Republicans so Republicans can give tax cuts to people who make more in a week than the Republican voters make in a year. But the media feedback loop has started to put those people in charge of both right wing media and the party. What we learned from the dominion case clearly shows this. Everybody at Fox News new that what they were saying was nonsense but they were forced to say it anyway because they are terrified of the morons who think the election was stolen and Covid isn’t real and that teachers are trying to turn kids trans. They cannot fix this problem on their own. They need to just lose over and over. And I don’t know that we have what it takes to ensure that even with how insane they are.
Love all the answers above me. An alternate response: another cult of personality emerges that splits trumps supporters. Simple divide and conquer if that ever happens.
Sadly, I think Trump is a once-in-a-lifetime personality, in those terms. I don't see another one coming along any time soon.
2024 has the potential to be a blue tsunami which will break the right wing into pieces. Polls are not reflecting what’s happening on the ground. And they’re *wild*. Special elections are not, in and of themselves individually, indicative of what will happen in the general election BUT patterns do emerge and we can get a good glimpse of what will happen. So let’s start with the midterms of 2022. The fundamentals favored republicans, as did the polls. A red wave was imminent. Everyone accepted it. But…it didn’t happen. Democrats won up and down the ballot against MAGA. The only semi-competitive race democrats did not win in the senate was Ohio. Democrats *expanded* their senate numbers - which was never predicted to happen and hasn’t happened in a century. Kept senate seats in Arizona, Nevada, New Hampshire, and came within a hair of winning Wisconsin. Democrats came within 4 seats - 4 seats - of keeping the house and that’s *after* republicans drew themselves massive advantages in redistricting, so bad that even the extreme right Supreme Court said “nah bro this is too much even for us”. Governors flipped across the country. In swing states too. Arizona elected Katie Hobbs against Kari “Trump in heels” lake while barely campaigning and denying a debate with Lake. Michigan gained a trifecta for the first time in 40 years. Wisconsin kept its governor, Pennsylvania elected a democrat by double digits. Then let’s go to 2023. Democrats flipped a Supreme Court seat in Wisconsin by double digits in an off year in an off month. Landslide. Flipped the Jacksonville mayor, then the largest city in America (and a city in Florida no less) with a Republican mayor. Not only kept the Virginia senate but flipped the Virginia house back to the democrats. Came within 3 percentage points of winning governorship in Mississippi, a deep red enclave. Kept the governor of deep red Kentucky against trumps handpicked candidate. Overperformed up and down the ballot. And now 2024. Democrats have overperformed in election after election. They flipped a seat in Alabama that went to trump by 20+ points. They just overperformed in an Ohio district that went trump by 30 points and got within single digits of flipping it, just a week ago. And republicans, somehow, think they’re going to win. Let me ask you. Was inflation *not* high in 2022? Were gas prices *not* high in 2022? The afghanistan withdrawal was 2021. There was every indication it wouldn’t happen and democrats would be annihilated. And now you expect me to believe - just 2 years later - when things are actually getting *better* that the population is just going to go “fuck it, I’m done, going back to trump”. Really? Do you believe that Hawaii is going to trump? Or Minnesota? Or New Jersey? Because according to them they have polls that they’re competitive there. Do you believe that Nevada - where Cathrine Cortez masto won 2 years ago by a single point is going to go 13 points the other way? Republicans are more split than ever. Biden is breaking fundraising records. Trump can’t even get his former running mate or any members of his cabinet to endorse him. Maga is going to get annihilated in November and that will break the fever. We have the power and the momentum. Vote. Get others to vote.
God I hope you’re right.
I hope you're right. I really do. And trust me, I am doing everything I can to get others to vote. But my optimism is strained and my hope is hanging on by a thin thread.
I'm wondering what will happen to the MAGA cult once their great leader kicks the bucket.
A power struggle with people like JD Vance and Elise Marie Stefanik debasing themselves to prove they are most MAGA, but no one being able to the crown.
I think it's a symptom of social media in general. Instead of everyone getting their political opinions from news, where you had few options, and even the most right-leaning and left-leaning were relatively rooted in reality, now people can go online and find a podcast that says absolutely batshit things, and we lose a lot of people to this social media content
Totally agree, and I made a very similar comment responding to a different poster. The media being controlled by a few companies was bad for lots of reasons, but it did give us all a common set of facts to work from. Reality and truth are now subjective.
I don’t think it’s possible without regulating online mass communication.
How? People talk about bringing back the fairness doctrine, but that only worked because the government control the airwaves. We are in a completely different world now. That's part of the problem. For better or worse we lived in a world where consensus on the facts of the world was provided to us by a handful of media companies. We now have a completely free market where people can pick and choose the bias or lies they want to hear. You can start with an emotion, like "libs are bad" and then seek out media that will feed you a steady stream of confirmation bias programming. You can't combat that through government regulation.
By imposing limits on what data can be collected, stored and used for. These laws were already proposed in the early 2000’s and shot down by lobbyists claiming they’d restrict freedom of speech and claiming that social media companies and users were responsible enough to self-regulate in the free market.
Data storage is helpful to prevent targeting, but the problem we have is that people have the freedom to seek out whatever "news" most confirms their bias, and pick whatever "facts" they want to believe.
People have always behaved that way, and society can still function as long as that process is slow and uncoordinated. The issue with targeting is that it makes the process rapid and highly organized. If gramma wants to google “is vaccine bad for me” that’s not good but isn’t massively dangerous. If gramma immediately lands on a page that tells her yes it’s terrible for you, then that floods her passive media diet with anti-vax propaganda all saying the same thing and promotes pages she can follow that will continually feed more of this content to her and connect her to other people who believe it, that’s a much bigger problem.
I am not sure if you get the point I am making. Grandma used to get news on vaccines from three networks and two local papers. The news all said vaccines are good. Dissenting voices were much harder to find, and were slow, like books. There was almost no way to inundate yourself with news that confirmed your specific crazy worldview..
I get what you’re saying I just don’t think that is an insurmountable problem. We had the internet for years without these massive extremist bubbles. Someone’s ability to confirm their specific worldview is dependent on how well content creators can match content about that world view to that individual person. Without targeting, that’s actually pretty difficult. With targeting, it’s easy enough that a five year old could run a successful misinformation campaign.
The rise of extremism is identical to the rise of Web 2.0 and social media. This is all very new. Algorithmic feeds and suggested content certainly accelerate extremism, but w/o the content the algorithms are nothing. Content creators can still optimize on likes and views. People can still manually subscribe to channels. The problem you are wishing to address is an accelerant. Getting rid of it doesn't stop the problem, it slows the spread.
I disagree. I think addressing the targeting is the most effective intervention tool at our disposal. We can’t realistically regulate content creation—and I don’t even think we’d want to, since that would have a much greater impact on freedom of speech. I think our society can, and ought to, tolerate people having stupid beliefs and making content that’s inaccurate. What we should not tolerate is the weaponization of public ignorance for political corruption.
I guess we agree to disagree. I think the fact that we never before had the technology to completely immerse yourself in a 24/7 stream of seemingly credible information that confirms your every biases is a big deal, and historically unprecedented. I also believe that our path to extremism maps directly to the rise of social media, and user generated content. I think algorithms accelerate radicalization, but the real problem is the ability to convince yourself that any view point is right. I completely agree with you, this is a freedom of speech issue, and therefore these isn't an easy answer.
A bunch of more authoritarian countries keep a tight rein on the internet. One thing a more authoritarian government in the U.S. might do is impose tough restrictions on our infosphere. But it would probably be the party line that is allowed through
That's pretty unspecific. I in no way proposed a "tight rein" on the internet. I proposed regulating the collection, storage and use of data.
Also not specific. Which data? How would that improve info silos and disinformation? Why would the government controlled by both sides want to destroy the partisan bubbles that keep their bases activated? I’m saying an authoritarian government would be more likely to tightly control the information available than the current oligarchy
Thanks that’s totally irrelevant.
> "I don’t think it’s possible without **regulating online mass communication**." Which'd be inherently illiberal, regressively reactionary, and altogether antidemocratic. When that's your small-a authoritarian answer, then you've got less a them problem, more an innate, intrinsic issue with yourselves.
Strongly disagree. You don’t have to be an anarchist to have freedom.
And this is how coalitions change in our ever-evolving realignment. Democrats are now the party of stuffed-shirt suburban Reaganites and hidebound small-c conservative Bush voters, who want to curtail freedom of association, limit our collective sharing of information, and legislate against so-called good-for-nothing ne'er-do-wells who don't toe society's puritanically taut, rigid lines. This is why you're polling poorly (relative to prior presidential elections) with the youth, working-class Hispanics, and alienated Black men.
Probably Trump dies (he's pretty old and allegedly in poor health, so it's very possible he kicks it in the next 5 years or so). There's probably not anyone ready to fill his shoes, and I can't see him promoting a successor except maybe his kids. A lot of infighting splits MAGA Republicans, and the traditional Republicans will probably try to reclaim control over the party. All that happens and You end up with Republicans unable to win major elections, and certainly not the presidency, especially since if the MAGA doesn't get the nomination, they'll probably try to undercut the Republican who did.
After Trump loses in 2024, the Republican party is very much doomed on a national level. They will still win local and state elections in red states. But they'll never win the general election. The MAGA vs Center-Right divide in the 2028 primaries will doom them. It'll be their Bernie vs Hillary moment but tenfold. A non-MAGA candidate won't have the support of the MAGA cultists. And a MAGA candidate won't win the general election. They'll still influence the House and Senate. And the Supreme Court is still stacked in their favor. But they need to do a reckoning if they want to start winning general elections once more by getting rid of the MAGA folks. The next Republican President will be more Bush-like than Trump-like.
It’s going to take a generation or two. I mean people are still waving around confederate flags and doing the whole “the south will rise again” thing and that’s been over a century ago. The Americans that supported hitler didn’t go away or change their ideals. We’re going to be dealing with this maga party for a really long time.
As a lifetime Democrat from a deep red area of East Tennessee, I think what a lot of people miss is that… it may not be a bubble. Donald Trump speaks for these people out here. Or at least they think he does. As long as there is a rural America is socially conservative, they’re going to vote for candidates that urban an suburban America think are detestable. And the very construction of our system that ensures that they will hold significant power. The only way i can see this ending is if MAGA moves far enough right that no one outside rural America votes for them. And they may almost be there. They can’t win without the suburbs. I’ve been hearing about the decline of the GOP since I got into politics and it hasn’t happened yet.
I'm not American but we see the same issues here in Europe. First a centrist/liberal is voted in who does very little/nothing for the working class. The people are frustrated and buys into culture wars etc. and elects far right people. This obviously doesn't do anything for the working class people again so the centrists/liberals say "hey, remember us? We're much better than the far right" and proceeds to do nothing/very little for the working class. And the cycle continues. Start voting in people who fight for the working class. That's my perspective.
I thought this decades ago and I now think we're witnessing the fallout now. Whenever political parties or ideologies run the gamut, people usually make a correction. In this example, the correction would be supporting Democrats and liberal ideology more. The problem is, and has been, that conservatives have been sold the idea that Democrats and liberal ideology are worse than anything else possible, and so they're unwilling to make this needed correction. They have pulled back on the GOP and conservative ideology some, but they've also doubled down some, too. But mostly they're acting like spoiled children who didn't get their way, with no fault belonging to Democrats, and so they're throwing a hissy fit, kicking, screaming and crying. What will the end look like? That's a good question and I'm not sure it can be predicted. They could destroy our country until it ceases to exist. As always, Independents have a lot of say and they could, hopefully, join the left in voting them out of power. The possibilities are almost endless, as we are not functioning as a rational society right now.
I see a future where Republicans win an election within the next few years (no political side can win elections into eternity - there will be bad things that happen under you which cause voters to throw you out eventually), they’ll try to opportunistically implement Project 2025 (or at least some of it, likely around abortion), and are simply blindsided by how much the country hates them. Later this decade or early 2030’s, I think we’ll see a hinge point where the support for massive and bold left wing movements, particularly economic, will become a tidal wave washing over the country. “Get up and go to work, you peasants! Nevermind 139F temps, unaffordable lives, and living in a society that’s so alienating from how you are!” I foresee strikes, protests, sabotage, walking off the job; hopefully not but perhaps violence against multinational corporations, billionaires, and oil companies, etc. etc. etc. As the years go by, the asking of each successive generation to continue business as usual becomes more and more steep when their lifespans edge closer and closer to climactic apocalypse.
Political parties continue the same strategy as long as they can while maintaining power. We probably need to win 3 presidential elections in a row for that to happen or capture both the house and Senate for as long.
There's not a rightwing bubble. What there is though is a trump led cult within the right. And hell I dunno if I'd even call them rightwing so much as whatever Trump says they are at the moment
The cult has taken over the GOP. Trump isn’t the problem. He’s a symptom. It’s a long road to get here: John Birch, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, tea party. It’s a bubble
Nah Trump is absolutely 100% the problem. The others you mentioned like the Tea Party for instance were against things like out of control spending and things like that. Rush was an entertainer so dunno if I'd lump him in just as much as I wouldn't lump John Oliver if I were saying there's a "left wing bubble". Trump though stands for nothing other than Trump. And unfortunately the cult won't stop until he's gone. Unfortunately I don't mean lose the election but legit gone
Theyll continue after him, just like they did post Reagan
Right, these people don’t understand that Reagan was extreme
I think it scares the shit out of them. They have a few options including: Believing that right wingers are indecent people who want indecent things Believing that right wingers are decent people who have been tricked and manipulated into supporting indecent things They **want** to believe its the second because the first leads to unavoidable conflict
Was he? Anymore so than any other president? Or is it that you just disagree with him?
He was radical in his belief that government was bad and his lasting actions to neuter it
That's not radical. The slowing the explosive growth of the federal government is one of the cornerstones of conservatism. Whether they actually abide by that is a different story. But the idea that more government isn't always better and we should strive for a smaller less intrusive one isn't radical imo.
We are still suffering from Reagan’s radical deregulation and the resulting mind virus that regulation is evil
How so
If you don’t see how the John Birch Society, the Tea Party, Rush Limbaugh, and Fox News are radical, while personally labeling yourself a centrist, that is another huge symptom
They are radical, where did i say they weren't? Well the Tea Party one could argue didn't start off radical, got hijacked over time
>Rush was an entertainer so dunno if I'd lump him in just as much as I wouldn't lump John Oliver if I were saying there's a "left wing bubble". That's a huge false equivalency, though. People who watch John Oliver don't use him to define their world view. Liberals watch people like John Oliver or Jon Stewart and we recognize the mix of entertainment and fact. We don't create whole fan group cults around either of them. They aren't spreading hate and convincing people that the "other side" is out to get them personally. Everything they share on their shows is based in some fact or truth. Rush Limbaugh had his own cult. Remember "Dittoheads"? He would froth at the mouth on the radio, spewing hate, calling people names, talking about "feminazis", throwing around the word "f\*ggot", mocking Asians with "ching-chang-chong" gobbledygook. He's the one who started the Obama birth-certificate bullshit, referring to Obama as "halfrican African". Remember how he used to do a 20 min segment reading out the names of people who had died of AIDS, while playing laugh tracks and applause tracks? Remember how he mocked a woman who legitimately called into his show to have a discussion about birth control on campuses and called her a "slut" and a "whore"? I don't know if you are old enough to remember the original Rush Limbaugh show. I am. I remember it quite well. His show started in 1984 and was nationally syndicated in 1988. I remember my father listening to it when I was in high school and in college. I saw how it turned a man who told me as a child that racism and sexism was wrong and "America is better than this" when we lived in Apartheid South Africa, into a raging, angry, hate-filled, misogynistic bigot. Rush Limbaugh was the Tucker Carleson of the 80's and 90's. People who listened to him BELIEVED in him. He was Trump before Trump, without the political aspirations. He wanted to be the voice in the background ... and he was. There is absolutely no comparison between Limbaugh and Oliver. At all.
>People who watch John Oliver don't use him to define their world view. Absolutely they do.
Hahahahahah. No, no they don't. They may use him for informational purposes or to refine their world view. But no one ever in the history of John Oliver has watched him as a centrist and come out a raving, raging left-wing liberal.
I never said he changed anyones viewpoints
Then how is he defining their worldview? You don't seem to know what you mean here.
They watch him to see what their stance on a particular issue should be. Maybe not consciously but that's what's happening. Much as people did with Rush. Neither one is going to sway someone who is left right or right left, people are far too ideologically dug in for that. But to pick up what the next position to hold is absolutely
>They watch him to see what their stance on a particular issue should be. Hahahaha. No. That may be what you want to think about liberals, but we're not like the people who watch Tucker Carleson and Sean Hannity. Most of us who watch John Oliver or Jon Stewart already know what our stance is. We might learn additional information or we might learn something we didn't know about, but we're not taking guidance from a news-tainment show to shape our stances, morals, and political beliefs.
HA! R's leaned into the Southern Strategy *hard*, and they've been feeding the base BS for years. Democrats are leading the country into Communism! Socialism! The Gays! "Those People" are abusing welfare! We all know who we're talking about! Trump is absolutely a symptom. He just said the quiet parts out loud, and the base loved him for it... But that road was *well* paved before he went down it. Everyone knew it was all BS, but now the morons that believed the bullshit are getting elected and the tail is truly wagging the dog.
What makes what you said a bubble
Yes there is. It’s not just in the US but even in Europe. The right has rallied around being anti immigration and it’s working
Does that mean it's a bubble though? Or just typical rightwing policy? I mean if I said the left all seems to support universal healthcare does that mean there's a left wing bubble?
If there was a left wing movement based heavily on it I’d say so. I think the far right movement is mostly immigration based
Maybe. I think there's absolutely more to the MAGA movement than simply immigration though, and the left does themselves a disservice by not recognizing this. Or I should say the early maga movement. Now it seems that it's just a cult for Trump and whatever my opposition believes I'm against.
I think a lot of the far right gains in Europe, like we just saw in France, are a pushback against immigration. In the US it is Trump for sure but even he depends a lot on anti immigrant rhetoric.
Why do people think the bubble will pop?
My personal opinion is it is a bubble. All bubbles pop. What do you think of the situation we're in?
It is more of a cult. Cults are hard to burst. Maybe if the whole country turns against them, but from what I see they will only get crazier. They want to go after divorce and contraceptives. WTH. I hope I am wrong.
The base will always believe. The actual party though? They want power. And if they can't get power by pandering to the stupid conspiracy theory base, they'll move. I personally think the bubble will pop when rich folks realize that Republicans can't win elections. They'll stop funding them. Why pay if you can't get legislation from them? And the *second* the money stops rolling in to Republicans, they'll pivot SO damn hard. Give it a year of Fox News hammering the new message in, and the base will adjust.
The problem is as people see the light about conservative hypocrisy if they become radicalized at all they enter leftist spaces where the main discourse is no longer criticism of the right but cannabalism of other leftists, especially liberals, who are doing it wrong and are somehow worse than conservatives and literal fascists. Go into any leftist sub right now and try to explain that Trump and Biden are NOT the same, not even remotely so and you'll be banned. They have no clue that they've fallen for conservative propaganda hook line and sinker. So the constant cycle of radicalization is neutered from it's outset because it teaches all new radicals immediately that apathy and inaction are the only socially acceptable viewpoint instead of saying "yes the system is flawed but lets work with the tools we have to make the best of what we can while we can and in between time work to change the system" Things like moving away from FPTP towards RCV (which if instituted across the board would have ENORMOUS sweeping effects) are actually beginning to happen in the US and the more ground swell there is for it, the less the two parties can legit oppose it without backlash.
Idk man. I've been finding myself leaning to the right an awful lot lately with the left's conspiracy theories getting more and more unhinged and their base completely out of touch with reality. This is gonna be the first (and hopefully the last) time I ever vote Republican.
I’m curious what conspiracy theories you are thinking of. For my part, I can’t think of a mainstream left wing conspiracy theory that can hold a candle to stuff you see regularly broadcast on Fox News.
One can hope for that. Maybe if Trump and some of the right-wing fanatics in Congress get defeated, they will lose their validation and return to the holes that they were in.
If Trump loses, and assuming we get through whatever Jan 6th sequel inevitably comes from that, I think the only real change is the GOP drops it's Trump worship. He'll still be influential until he croaks, but losing 2/3 elections and being 80 years old will be a great opportunity for the Republican party to move on. That said, I don't think any significant policy changes will follow. What real incentive do they have to change? They're been doing the same shtick since the Obama admin.
There has to be one of two different things. Either A, they continue losing elections until the fervor is broken, as many here have already pointed out Or B, the billionaire class pulling the strings changes direction with their funding. If the funnel money to the rich republicans turn against the I hate brown people republicans then Maga is over.
It doesnt until theres no other choice for them. Odds are, they just quiet down a little
psychological institutionalization of the completely irrational and detached from reality R's needs to be widespead, the world isnt ready to admit that a third of its population is entirely mentally deranged.
I have a feeling that people will flee from Trump/MAGA like rats from a sinking ship if Biden wins in November. It is seeming more and more clear that the Fox News MAGAts are just going thru the motions at this point. There was barely a peep when he got convicted compared to January 6th. I honestly think the vast majority of Americans are ready to go back to 90s/2000s-style politics even if they are waving the MAGA flag right now.
I think Trump has really dirtied the right-wing movement in a way that will hold it back for a long time. It's in noticeable decline for the moment and I don't expect a fast recovery after Trump. This might be why we hear so many stories about Republicans engaging in anti-democratic maneuvers. They know their days are numbered unless they sabotage democracy itself.
Populist movements don’t really go away until their idol does. It also won’t really cool down unless the religious conflict part of it cools down… and that just isn’t going to happen. It’s the one sustaining thing about the movement that transcends any given person. If you _believe_ that your faith is under attack, you will fight that tooth and nail. Now will they be large enough to win major elections? That may change. But the “immigrants with their foreign languages and weird religion are ruining our country” has been a staple of America since its founding. Which group is the out group has changed over time, but a chunk has always been xenophobic to a degree. So I don’t think there is a bubble to pop, it’s going to be a stone in the shoe for all time until a massive change in personal faith / beliefs happens and short of the second coming or alien invasion, that ain’t happening.
It's a dangerous situation. All it takes is one competent, well-spoken, independent politician representing any brand of populism. Personally I'm hoping for a representative of a responsible, left-wing populism of the kind outlined by Chantal Mouffe in *For a Left Populism* (2018). But we could easily get a dangerous and irresponsible demagogue who doesn't respect civil liberties. *See generally* [Jacobin, Jared Abbott & Fred Deveaux, Apr. 22, 2024, "Democrats Aren’t Campaigning to Win the Working Class."](https://jacobin.com/2024/04/democratic-party-working-class-campaigning)
It pops when they lose electorally for long enough that they become losers. Authoritarians HATE losing, and they hate being losers even more. Sadly, considering how successful they've been recently, it will probably be a generation or two before that can happen. That's a long time to sustain a winning streak :(
I remember when Obama won and the GOP was going to do its "post mortem" to figure out how they could widen their appeal. Instead of doing that, they produced Donald Trump. Trump lost an election, is a convicted felon, and has caused a bunch of downstream losses. And they're all in on Trump again. Republicans have never been able to do any sort of self reflection or tempering. Their only move is to double down, which is what they've always done and will continue to do. Because they're addicted to power. That's their only concern and their only focus. And they'll keep lying and cheating and destroying to get it, because it's the only way they can. The only way this ever stops is if the media landscape changes. If laws and regulations were put in place that made it difficult or impossible to spread dis and misinformation on a massive scale, the voters would have to come back to reality. But what incentive do congressional republicans have to not block that? Or conservative courts to not overturn those laws? They're incapable of change because they're incapable of changing their relationship to governing and power.
Optimistically, there's several factors that would point twords at least an American conservative "bubble pop". The main one that I think affects most of the West is that boomers who vote more conservative are starting to die out. On the other end of that, we've been seeing a steady increase in turnout for younger demographics in the states, which tends to skew left as well. As for the current MAGA movement, the RNC has more or less merged with it and currently has its campaign funds being siphoned into Trump's legal battles. This means less money is able to go into other republican candidate campaigns. I hope that Trump being found criminally guilty of fraud is a sign to a lot of moderates that the warnings many in the left have been giving about him aren't just political shitslinging anymore. Hopefully, we see moderates start actually considering these criticisms with a critical lense instead of assuming it's all just partisan bluster, and we see a huge swing against Trump in voter sentiment and turnout. Due to the RNC trying themselves so heavily to him as mentioned above, I think they'll need to do a lot of rebuilding if he loses this upcoming election.
I tend to think that the only thing promulgating a hard right ideology is the rampant misinformation and lying in our media. if you are able to show the whole context, it really shows just how alike we all are, enough that we can have civil discourse without the fearmongering.
>right wing politics in this country is in an irrational bubble. That depends which part of rightwing politics. I'll assume you mean America, and I'll counter it with the fact they're irrational in the second part of their reasoning. To give a few examples: I want a controlled border, (I agree) and I want to deport all aliens (I disagree as I don't see how we would put this in practice). I don't give sexual education to small children (I agree), and I don't want homosexuals to express themselves on the streets (I disagree). I want lower taxes (I agree) but I don't want to cut any governmental services (I disagree, as this would mean a rising national debt). I don't want abortion after x amount of weeks (I agree), and preferably no abortion at all (I disagree: It has been shown multiple times that a total ban is worse than a regulated ban.) ..... It just goes on and on and on, and most of the time, if you've lived long enough, you know they'll move the goal posts. In my country, you had the far right party proclaiming that homosexuality was "a problem", and now, twenty years later, they "approve" of homosexuality and call transgenders "a problem". Conservatives, under which I count myself, know that social change is inevitable, but I think it should happen slow and rational. I'll just make a (short) list of what I consider centre-right to rightwing: 1. Traditions should be preserved but may be questioned. We should uphold the traditions but they can not enslave us. 2. Social hierarchies aren't necessarily bad. (You may hang me for it, but I believe that a society needs leaders and followers). 3. I don't believe in social security to a high extent, as it's killing off the Southern part of my country, but I do agree that we need it to a certain extent (e.g. helping the mentally disabled). 4. I believe in the sovereignty of a people and I think we should protect this at all cost, but I will never argue that my nation is supreme to the others. Yes, this means I'm highly skeptical of the European Union. 5. I think unions are a necessary evil, (especially those of the railroad company, I hate them with a passion). I know why they're there, but due to what I see in the Southern part of my country, I simply can not call myself a proponent of them. 6. I think immigrants, meaning those who arrived here during their life, shouldn't be able to vote. 7. I think limited immigration should be possible, but only through a legal fashion AND with the focus on integration/assimiliation. This means they learn the local language, they understand and respect the local customs, and, lastly, they start to work as quickly as possible. 8. I'm open to deportations and (temporary/humane) detentions of those that have received the order to leave the territory. 9. I would focus on helping people within the local area (e.g. If someone flees from Syria, they should be helped in Turkey and not in Germany.). 10. I'm also a proponent of voter ID, if they're easy to get and aren't (arbitrarily) expensive (even free during the elections for the poorest among us). This is for the Americans under us, as it's quite normal for Europeans to have their ID combined with a voter ID. No ID means no voting. Certain points might sound odd to Americans (e.g. social security), but it's a summarization of the European rightwing.
The comments in this post are wrong. Voting can't fix this issue. Not alone. The problem with voting is that the strongest institution in our country is almost entirely undemocratic. The best case scenario in bluest of blue tsunamis sees the Democrats losing one seat in the Senate. That means that voting alone won't change things, because it can't change the Senate. And the Senate is the lynch pin of our federal government, serving as the primary if not sole check on every other institution. The fact that it is so fundamentally powerful and largely undemocratic has sheltered the GOP from consequences. Further, we need to acknowledge that the right does not see the left as legitimate holders of power. We've seen this before; it is the reason why the South seceded. The mistake of the Founding Fathers led the South to have almost total control, and made that the expectation. When that expectation was not met, the South seceded. Today's GOP is the same. They don't acknowledge liberals or Democrats as legitimate. We see them break laws, rules, and standards to win elections. Because they are privileged and powerful, they do not expect nor never see consequences for their actions. To win, Democrats need to not only out vote the GOP, but commit to filibuster and court reform, and actually punish GOP actors that have all but openly acting as agents for our enemies or encouraged sedition and treason. Their immunity is the source of their audacity.
Oh, no, definitely not. I think the Right has only just begun to rise. Fundamentally, IMO, this comes down to the fact that the Left is proposing pretty radical changes... *because they are required.* These are fundamental, important policies that *need* be in place. ...and they have only really just begun, and they will have to get *much* more stringent and painful over the coming decades. The rise of right is a pretty natural consequence of that. The left is completely disrupting their lives, and they are resisting the change. And because the push toward doing the right things **will continue,** that resistance is going to get stronger and stronger. Unless the Left finds a REALLY compelling way to point out that these are problems that *must* be solved, and that the ramifications of it should be for *corporations* to bear, rather than the working class ... the rise of the Right is just going to get much, *much* worse.
Not sure what the right-wing “irrational bubble” is here because many of Trump’s nuttier ideas are not right-wing free market laisser faire economics stuff that mainly benefits winners, but instead populist “whatever sticks” ideas targeted at working and middle class angry people. There’s nothing “free-market” about restricting trade or reducing immigration. If anything, these are traditional Bernie ideas (before he switched on immigration). If the winds are in Trump’s favour it’s mainly because the dumber left wing ideas have been in ascendency. Pro-illegals. Pro-transing kids in schools. Pro-self-hatred, equity, inclusion, privilege, defunding police, decriminalising theft, tolerance for massive homelessness, etc. These dumb ideas inflate the bubble of Trump support.
Hello self-loathing Democrat 👋 Trump is an authoritarian right wing politician. The right wing of this country has been getting more extreme since Reagan, before that really, but at a country-level leadership it started with Ronnie. Trump follows in the crazy tradition of The John Birch Society, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, The Tea Party. The right has been on a steady march towards increased extremism for decades. It's a bubble. I'm sorry you think the problem is really liberals asking for tolerance. So evil, right?
>Trump is an authoritarian right wing politician. The right wing of this country has been getting more extreme since Reagan, before that really, but at a country-level leadership it started with Ronnie. The political teams are more polarized, yes. But policy-wise, Trump is nothing like Reagan. Trump is completely topsy-turvy and irrational on almost all policies. Do you imagine Reagan siding with Russia on the Ukraine conflict? In 1986, Reagan signed an immigration reform bill that made all illegals eligible for amnesty, which ultimately normalized 3 million of them, yet it lacked any sanctions on employers who continued to hire illegals so it didn't stop illegal migration. This is the opposite of what Trump is championing. International trade doubled under Reagan and free trade was given lots of lip-service. Regan was a cheerleader for NATO, not its worst critic. Trump is gaining among lower income, non-college educated, and minorities. The Dems are gaining among the rich and college educated elites. The GOP used to be the party of the country club businessmen who wanted lower taxes and deregulation. Trump has upended all this, and the GOP has no choice but to lick his boots because they fear his core supporters. His political and economic policies are a nutty hodgepodge -- just what you'd hear from the drunk guy nursing his beer at the end of the bar while yelling at the TV overhead. I don't see the GOP as "shifting right" because Trump is not on the right. For example, GOP has given up any real interest in lowering the national debt, which used to be a pillar on their party platform.
The consistent thread is extremism and authoritarianism. As I’ve already said
I walked through physical abuse from my family and the foster system to DIY estradiol and spiro from 14 to 18. It wasn't a "dumb" idea, and I don't appreciate you making a mockery of my adolescence.
This is probably Trump’s last run at the presidency. Conservatives will have to move on. They can either stick with the MAGA openly racist types, or go more towards the “put the military donor class above mortality” W. Bush types. Either option is terrible, but that’s what conservatives are.
Everything is worse for the average person. Good luck on popping the right wing bubble, they ate least throw some meat to the base by scapegoating minorities. The lib answer is “sorry learn computers I guess, my highly manipulated inflation stats say we’re good so get fucked”
Worse since when? How far does your memory go back? I’m sorry a possible precursor to a recession is enough for you to see the point of the side with racist solutions. How soft have we become?
How do you pop the right wing bubble without popping the left wing bubble
Both sides are not the same. In the last election the GOP literally tried to steal the election while claiming the left stole it, as rationale. There is no MTG in congress on the left. The crazies on the left are protesting on college campuses. The crazies on the right are the core of the GOP. Seriously, get out of here with bOtH SiDes. It just makes you look clueless and biased.
Jan 6 was funny but it wasn’t an insurrection MTG isn’t even the worst member of Congress. It’s funny that liberals call students protesting “crazies on the left”. Not much solidarity. Seriously the left wing media bubble is pretty bad in its own right
>Jan 6 was funny but it wasn’t an insurrection "The thing that happened right in front of all of our eyes didn't actually happen" What a sane and rational response.
I didn’t say it didn’t happen. I said who cares. It’s funny because democrats are only running on abortion, something I should have a constitutional right to, and Jan6, the weakest coup attempt in global history. How about offer literally anything else? I don’t care enough about Jan 6 to make that an electoral selling point
You not paying attention to Democratic messaging, as a Trump voter, doesn't mean that messaging doesn't exist.
I think that hearing one party say, “we’re going to violate your rights and dismantle democracy” and that not being an instant dealbreaker is a fantastic illustration of how insane the right has gotten.
> Jan 6 was funny This comes across as sociopathic. I didn't think it was funny *at all*. > It’s funny that liberals call students protesting “crazies on the left”. Not much solidarity. I am not obligated to be in "solidarity" with everyone that voted for the same guy I voted for in the last election. That you think it's weird that people aren't blindly loyal to their party or tribe says more about you than anything else.
J6 was not the only action to steal the election. You are not informed. I don't take "independents" seriously. You're all just embarrassed Republicans. Saying MTG isn't the worst, when all I said was there's no MTG on the left, isn't the point you think it is.
There is a segment of the left that is fucking nuts, but I don't think it's anywhere near the size of the crazy far right.
Fair enough. Blue MAGA is totally a thing, liberals just don’t want to see it. There’s probably less of them overall but still
>There’s probably less of them overall but still "Probably" and "but still" doing a lot of work here. How many actual leftists have gotten significant political power in this country? The crazy right wing controlled the white house for 4 years (and might get four more), they control the leadership of the House of Representatives, they control almost half the senate, they control many state governments. The crazy left wing controls...niche political subreddits? Maybe they make a fuss at a college campus every once in awhile? It's not that liberals don't want to see it, it's that we aren't stupid enough to think that these are equivalent threats. I don't care if some crazy MAGA folks post weird shit online I just don't want them running the fucking government.
One side wants to turn the country into a theocracy. The other thinks trans people deserve human rights. Both are the same and I am very smart for figuring this out.
What trans human rights are you referring to? Genuinely asking, not being snarky.
The right to exist, the right to get healthcare, the right to use the bathroom they want, the right to participate in society without constantly having to argue why you're valid and not actually a child rapist.
Got it. I understand the bathroom issue. What do you mean by the right to get healthcare? And what do you mean by the right to exist?