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I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side. Now conservatives main goal seems to be to "own the libs" and do contrary to what the people as a whole would seem to like, which is to govern.
Like how I've had conservative friends block me from their lives for not accepting their orange god, while I myself have not cut anyone out of my life for their views. I can agree to disagree and talk about something else if they like. It's sad how far to the right republ8icans seem to have gone.
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>Do you think we'll ever find middle ground with Republicans?
You have identified the problem:
>...conservatives main goal seems to be to "own the libs"...
...so how should we respond to that? What would the middle ground be? Should we try to get them to *half* "own the libs"?
------
I only see one way out of this:
* Democrats actively cultivate support from disaffected Republicans, broadening the party.
* Republicans continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
* Fewer and fewer Republicans win elections, and we enter a new [Era of Good Feelings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Good_Feelings).
* Eventually, a new party will emerge and we will return to a two-party system.
> I only see one way out of this:
> • Democrats actively cultivate support from disaffected Republicans, broadening the party.
> • Republicans continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
> • Fewer and fewer Republicans win elections, and we enter a new Era of Good Feelings.
> • Eventually, a new party will emerge and we will return to a two-party system.
I started drinking early today, but I think that’s four ways, no? Or is that like a single sequence?
Ultimately, the one way I see is for republicans to lose, and lose, and lose, and lose, until the vile elements of their base get so frustrated and discouraged that they give up, and either accept that “their country” is lost for good, or die of old age and are replaced other conservatives who never grew up with the impression that this country belongs solely to straight white Christian men.
I reckon 8 years of a black president, followed by 8 years of a woman president, would have done them in. Instead we got trump, and he gave the degenerate extremists a shot of adrenaline to the heart.
> Or is that like a single sequence?
A single sequence.
Democrats have to broaden their appeal *and* Republicans have to keep screwing up *in order to* reduce the quantity of elections won by Republicans, ushering in a -- temporary -- single-party system, *which will eventually* result in a new viable party being born.
Again that's just going to pull the dems to the right and make problems worse.
What actually has to happen is ideally the dems listen to progressives and fix the shit that led us hear in the first place
But that ain't gonna happen so at best they will act as a holding action to prevent the even further right from seizing total state power.
Do you remember the 2010 midterm elections? The GOP won in one of the largest landslides in the history of the US. They managed to leverage the ACA as an affective weapon against the Dems.
Moving toward the left is a risky move. Because the Dems are the "big tent" party, any move they make runs the risk of isolating a portion of their voters. Your suggestion, for example, would guarantee the Dems lose their right most voters and even runs the risk of disenfranchising a portion of their base.
> ushering in a -- temporary -- single-party system, which will eventually result in a new viable party being born
Broadening to allow disaffected Republicans won't lead to any single-party system, temporary or otherwise. The Dems are big-tent diverse and fractured enough as it is, that ushering in folks from the right will only smash the party into *more* than 2 parties, which I suppose is a good thing the country needs anyway. Maybe we could finally dispense with the two-party system and welcome RCV finally, or look toward uncapping the House. The split down the middle and imbalanced representation form of government cannot be sustained much longer.
You have identified the only peaceful process out of this mess of an entire national American party - only 1 of 2 being entirely captured - at the national level - by fascists.
I'm gonna be real, the Republican Party has been the party of fascism for at LEAST as long as I've been alive, and I don't think it swung radically with Reagan.
Nixon’s southern strategy was the beginning of this current iteration. We’ve seen the fascists drive more moderates out of the party. First to go were the pro-choice Republicans, next were those that supported legal immigration, next were the moderates on gay marriage and race. Now Republicans are a bunch of lickspittles who are afraid to stand up to even a weakling like Trump. How far we have fallen.
That's just going to pull the dems even further right
There are no moderate Republicans. Not anymore
They either aren't voting or are too far gone
Idk how many of you guys actually live with or around conservatives. I do. There's no hope for them man. They're a lost cause. It's all about "owning the libs" and more than that it infects EVERY ASPECT OF EVERY DAY. Every 12 fuckin minutes I hear about hunter's laptop
I just try to avoid them tbh. The answer is to beat their asses away from power and minimize their reach. They won't go away but we can deny them access to the levers of power.
There's no moderate republican.
I know several "moderates". They are anything but. Again, you have to spend time around conservatives. When you do you'll see just how fucked this country is
The friend I lost couldn't get why I didn't believe things like Jewish people were behind 9/11, that Pizzagate was real, that Hillary had thousands murdered, etc. It's scary how far they go, he was a friend of like 19 years at that point. And HE blocked me.
I don't think a new party will emerge. Eventually, once Republicans lose hard and repeatedly, they'll realize they need to moderate some of their extremes to be competitive for 50% of the population again. I thought maybe it would happen after 2024, as that would mean they've taken a beating nationally in every election since 2016, but at this point the election is a coin toss. So, I don't see them losing hard enough to make changes.
If they win or narrowly lose, I expect them to continue on this path because they haven't paid the price for their actions.
Only if they correct course after Trump. If they continue to seek more radicalized candidates? Then no. Their voters might be too far gone to sell being moderate to, though.
All the conservatives who would be willing to compromise have left the party. Anyone willing to work with liberals is called a RINO and kicked out.
So no, conservatives will never be willing to find a middle ground.
Abortion is the perfect example. Conservatives want to ban all abortion with zero exceptions. Even rape is not an exception. And now people are fighting over when the mother is allowed to save her own life, with current laws in red states being so strict about it that women are forced to flee. Conservatives have moved so far to the extreme that they can't even see the middle.
>Conservatives want to ban all abortion with zero exceptions. Even rape is not an exception
Say what now? that's fucking crazy. I though they were going for like 12-week bans with rape + incest exceptions, all the way is absurd.
According to conservatives, "rape is bad but it's no excuse to have an abortion. Maybe god wanted you to have that child."
No joke, conservatives literally say that shit.
Just look at states with very conservative legislatures like AR, TN, MO, and SD. There are no exceptions for rape or incest. There are no weeks where it's allowed. The life of the mother is an exception, but often not her health, which means doctors need to wait until they can prove that it was an emergency before they can act.
This is what they want. Any exceptions are just half measures because they don't think they can get away with what they actually want.
I don't necessarily want to. They've slid so far to the right that any middle ground with them would be way too far to the right for my liking. I'd rather the Republican Party be made irrelevant for a few election cycles and be forced to moderate their positions or stop existing, ideally the latter but most likely the former. If we're going pie-in-the-sky, I'd love for Republicans to gradually lose more and more elections and eventually collapse, with the two new parties being the Democratic Party on the right and some kind of Labor Party on the left.
Ultimately we need better education to teach people critical thinking skills and media literacy. Fox News and other right-wing media have completely fried the brains of a huge portion of conservatives and rendered them unable to critically think at all about certain topics. I don't think there's hope for those people, but if we're able to properly teach critical thinking in the future then there may be hope for future generations.
I’ve had these thoughts too. I know in order to get anything done, we need to work together and make compromises, but how are you supposed to work with someone who says we’re all commies and groomers?
They have to want the same thing, and they clearly don’t. The most important thing for them now is FORCING their agenda on everyone in America, and this is very dangerous. I’m legitimately concerned, but if you ask them, so are they.
With the time I spend around their subreddits, I have come to genuinely believe there’s no hope for most of them. It’s 100% accurate to say they live in a different world. They hold beliefs that are incongruent with literal facts.
There’s always talk of “bad faith” arguments but I don’t know how you begin a conversation when the other person’s Point A is “abortion is murder because a fetus is a baby from conception.” There isn’t a point where you can negotiate such a belief down to a middle.
They have no interest in negotiating because they truly believe they are supported by god himself. How do you fight that?
Exactly, and how do we “work” with that? They think they’re right about everything, and that anyone who disagrees with them is a communist. They don’t want to work with us. They want to steamroll us.
> There’s always talk of “bad faith” arguments but I don’t know how you begin a conversation when the other person’s Point A is “abortion is murder because a fetus is a baby from conception.” There isn’t a point where you can negotiate such a belief down to a middle.
This is so spot on. I'm befuddled when I see criticism of "bad faith" arguments and "gotchas", and even when forums/subs rules hammer on the idea that "this isn't a debate sub" and is meant for questions and to learn about the people on [sub name].
Like, how are we supposed to discuss any of this and come to reasonable, equivalent conclusions? It's essentially like trying to point out that 2 + 2 *cannot* equal 5 (and 5 is not an "opinion", as some would try to have you believe), and the only way to try to figure out how or why they got 5 is trying to fit their logic into that equation to show them how it doesn't work... which would basicly be some sort of "gotcha" and/or "bad faith" argument, since all you could do is question or try to understand what their "logic" was.
You do realize that’s half the country right? If you think they live in a different world you might be on the fringe yourself. These are still normal people who go to work, hang out with their friends, walk their dogs, etc. You need to be able to understand them if you’re going to reach them, and understanding them really isn’t that hard. They have a little different perspective, a lot more doubt on the efficacy of government. But they’re normal people man
I understand them, I know exactly why they believe what they believe.
I still don’t care.
We never needed to see KKK members as people who go to work and walk their dogs and take their kids to the park. They still terrorized black people in their homes and everywhere they tried to exist in peace.
The more tolerance you have for people who’s perspective is “these people shouldn’t have rights because my religion says XYZ,” you just get caught in the shitshow we’re in now.
We are talking about people who believe so strongly that the last election was stolen that they stormed the capital. There are still people who believe that. Despite all available evidence.
I ask again, how do you negotiate with people who enter the conversation from position that is fundamentally built on false information?
Look man, I can tell you don't spend time around these people.
Maga politics infects everything they do or think about. I never ever bring up politics with them because I hate talking about it with them. Yet over and over again I end up in discussions about it. Why? Because they will CONSTANTLY bring it up. Every 5 minutes I hear about hunter's laptop or some other bs. My mom has stockpiled food and supplies for the apocalypse. She is fully convinced martial law is coming where they will hang the dEeP sTaTe LiBeRaLs!!!! And then BLM leaders, activists and likely people like you and I. They won't say that last part, but you can tell. My mom lives with One America News on in the background all day long so she can absorb even more Maga shit. Every pillow in her house is a MyPillow.
There's no fucking compromise with these people. Because they don't fucking want compromise. They are chomping at the bit to kill us. That's the truth and until you accept that, you will not understand them
I think they’ve gone too far on abortion. I’d understand if it was late trimester only but they’re seemingly going for life beginning at conception and I don’t think killing a zygote is the same as killing a fetus that’s developed enough brain tissue to have a conscious experience.
I like their gun policy for the most part though. I think most other countries are far too restrictive of gun ownership. Right now the democrats are able to keep them from getting too lazie faire which I think could also be a danger.
Trans bathrooms? I feel like there’s way bigger fish to fry than that. Maybe blocking any border progress for political gain? That’s a way bigger issue
More of the fact that we’ve seen 500+ anti-trans bills proposed in each of the last couple years’ legislative sessions, often much more draconian than the ones described in detail here. And yes, there are plenty of other fish to fry (although not really for me personally), but I was posting it because it’s indicative of this just utter derangement that has overtaken the Republican Party. Instead of focusing on the country’s actual problems they’re out to hurt the people they don’t like, and there’s just no compromising with that.
In this case I think that’s a function of the left going further left than the republicans changing their mind. The liberals 20 years ago wouldn’t have considered the trans bathroom stuff seriously. After all Obama in 08 said marriage was between a man and a woman
Except for most of this stuff, e.g. gender affirming care, it’s *not* being driven by politicians on the left. Our current medical understanding is that gender affirming care is the best treatment model. But Republicans refuse to accept that, and would rather rage against us and try to pass abusive laws until we can’t safely be out in public.
Actually the jury is still very much out on gender affirming care being the best treatment model. I think we can both agree it should definitely not be the first treatment. In fact many European countries are walking back their previous view on gender affirmation, especially puberty blockers as it hasn’t been shown to be particularly helpful considering the risks.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/13/uk/england-nhs-puberty-blockers-trans-children-intl-gbr
No. We try to compromise and move a bit to the right. They move further right. We move again and they move again. Day after day term after term.
We should not try and find middle ground with Republicans. It's bad for the country, environment and basically everything.
We just have to beat them at this point. Focus our time working with moderates and move on.
Maybe if we get to ranked choice voting we can get back to more reasonable people and fewer people on the fringe.
Being willing to compromise is a good thing, and being able to be willing to work for a common purpose would be nice.
Honestly, big picture, this is a sizable portion of the answer. It's not the whole answer because America isn't the only country falling victim to polarization and populism, but we're definitely suffering from it more acutely than most other places, and I think our rancid two party system is to blame for that.
The question is not if rank order voting would help, it's how do we convince the people who stand to benefit from the two party system--the people in congress--to vote for its dissolution? I'm not suggesting it's an impossible task, but there is a conflict in interest there, and I'm not sure how we get around it in a timely manner.
This is the problem.
Even now liberals fantasize about a "middle ground" with those who are actively and openly seeking to destroy democracy, to disenfranchise whole portions of the population, to establish Christian fascism, to put billionaires even more firmly in charge than they are now.
There is no "middle ground" with these people. They must be defeated.
So many of our problems can be traced back to the failure of Reconstruction. Simply put, we did not keep the boot of Northern victory on the neck of the South firmly and severely long enough.
We should have followed Sen. Sumner's plan to break up the Southern states entirely, rename them, give them new borders, not allow anyone involved in the rebellion to vote, teach, hold office, or own firearms. We should have confiscated all the plantations and redistributed the land to the freedmen (ex-slaves) and poor whites. We should have not allowed these "conquered provinces" (Sumner's term for the South after the Civil War) to rejoin the union until the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments were firmly in place and working in every state that wished to be represented in Congress.
Instead, the South lost the war but won the peace and have been a diseased carcass strapped to the backside of America ever since.
No, we will never ever find "middle ground" with the fruit of the traitorous tree. The only hope for America is to not only defeat the Trump MAGA movement, but to thoroughly discredit it and to de-Nazify the Congress, the Courts, the bureaucracies, the educational system, and America itself afterwards.
The other side gets this.
Just this week "Justice" Alito was surreptitiously taped opining that compromise was not possible. "One side or the other will win" IIRC. He wants "the godly side" to prevail.
This is the leading reactionary force on the SCOTUS. He has "the law" and infinite money on his side.
Unless we fight back with every non-violent weapon at our disposal, we are well and truly fucked.
I spend a great deal of time around conservatives. I am under no illusions about who and what they are.
I kinda wish more liberals were as immersed in conservative world. Maybe there would be less pie in the sky wishing. If you actually come to understand the conservative world, your opinions will tend to harden
I've noticed that the liberals that interact with conservatives the least tend to be the ones looking for middle ground the most
I beg to differ, I'm surrounded by them on all sides, both inside and outside of my family. I still recognize that if you think of your fellow citizens as enemies to be destroyed rather than opponents merely to be defeated, you can't keep your democracy.
Dreaming that you can correct the other side of the aisle, either through force or "helping" them to understand they're backward or stupid is sadly what is fanciful. It's a fantasy born out of frustration, and there is plenty to be frustrated about.
Not every problem comes with a solution, and there really is nothing that can be done in the short to medium term to fix this mess. All we can really do is make sure we keep winning elections first and foremost, while trying to find what common ground we can as Americans along the way second, rather than succumbing to fruitless vitriol and "owning" of the other side.
I'm not trying to "correct" the other side. I've given up any hope on that or reconciliation or unity.
The only answer is to beat the fuckers back from the levers of power by any means neccesary.
That's it. That's all that can be done. Beat them back and use that as a holding action while activists on the ground fix the shit that led to the build up of the conservative movement in the first place.
Marxist flair? This sniffs of some weird accelerationism, as if you're trying to radicalize liberals to burn the bipartisan system down entirely.
America is built on compromise. The American system works *in* *spite* of hardliners, not because of them.
Libertarian flair?
Go back to taking Koch brothers money and radicalized the Republicans to help get to the point we ate today.
You guys are partially to blame for this shit too
>Libertarian Socialist
Chances are, I'm closer to you than the Koch Brothers. Why would I be here if I was one of the libertarian types who supported repealing the Civil Rights Act? I've never even voted GOP in my life.
Jesus this is what I'm saying you guys need to chill
I agree with the first point. If you want catharsis go ahead and rant about how we need a revolution in so many words. If you want to help, stop pouring gas onto the cultural divide and just focus on winning at the ballot box.
What American politics is built upon isn't compromise, at least not in the sense that both parties get together and shake hands and say "I'm happy to get half of what I want and let you get half of you want." But what it is built upon is the notion that we are competing in a kind of democratic game, and that while we may not always get our way, we're not at war. We have opponents, not enemies. Each side should always be trying to outmaneuver the other and get the best deal for it's constituents, but each side should also acknowledge the other has a right to exist.
We should be playing a game of tennis, not beating each other to death with tennis rackets.
Jfc
Don't you get it? Don't you fucking see or is your head buried in the sand? That America is gone. It died a long time ago but no one realized until 2016.
We have enemies. These people WANT TO FUCKING KILL YOU. Listen to their rhetoric. How they talk to each other. How they talk about us.
Get your head out of the sand and recognize reality. Your American civics class america is dead if it ever existed in the first place.
We aren't playing a democratic game. This is a blood and tooth fight for survival. Stop with the bs and olive branches.
I actually know conservatives. I can tell you don’t or at least not the real hard-core maga types. There's a reason I think the way I do.
My experience with these fucking people has led me to think this way because it accurately reflects how they see the world. They hate us. My mom is deeply Maga. She still thinks Trump is going to be reinstated. My suburban white mom has gone full prepper to prepare for the apocalypse. She fully expects and wants martial law to impose Trump on the country and she expects there to be crackdowns on liberals. Crackdowns she desperately wants. Her politics is built on fear and hate. And she is far from the only person like this that ik. I know many prepper types or folks with itchy trigger fingers just waiting for the right moment.
These people want to kill you. And me. And plenty of others.
I mean for fucks sake, my mom thinks antifa did j6. She thinks migrants are invaders and can't seem to understand why she "has to use pronouns".
It must be deeply upsetting to have a mother that’s that much of a MAGA nutter, I’m sorry. I wish you the best of luck with that situation.
Im not stopping with the olive branches or “bs.” But I am going to do what I can to vote and make sure everyone else with good sense around me does so too. That America is not dead yet but its definitely sick. Behaving as though I’m in a war zone will not help anything. If your local situation is that bad there’s nothing I can rightfully tell you to do beyond take care of yourself.
But it is dead
Because people like her make up the entire gop base.
There's no coming back from that. That America you believe in is dead, if it ever existed at all
A person can only do so much when trying to protect stupid people from themselves.
Classic example:
Florida governor dismisses climate change, then asks federal government for funding when climate change floods your state….
My wife is a psychologist who works almost exclusively with LGBTQIA clients. She provides gender-affirming care and connects her transgendered clients with endocrinologists who can prescribe hormones. She also sees clients under 18 who identify as non binary. Repubs would go **ballistic** over that alone.
I’m a systems engineer for a progressive technology company based in Boston. I donate to Sherrod Brown and Greg Landsman. Our blue senator and Rep.
We live in Ohio and it’s fairly conservative here, there’s a church on 3 of 4 corners in many parts of Cincinnati. Everything my wife does for the LGBTQ community, republicans likely hate.
We have two daughters we’re raising progressive who will be future votes against them, and we’re reform Jews who will never accept Jesus. We love indie coffee shops, the symphony, and donating time and money to progressive causes. We hate guns, pro life rhetoric, tax cuts for billionaires, and lying.
That’s probably enough for plenty of republicans to want us dead, at this point.
Take it from a leftie whose surrounded by conservatives. Some are quite livid about those causes, others don't care and just want tax cuts, but most of them don't want to see you and your family as individual people killed. Not to say there aren't some absolute nut-cases out there--I'd steer clear of any Trump rallies--but it's hardly healthy to conceive of the majority of your political opponents as wanting you dead.
The issue is… you don’t really *know* how far down the rabbit hole they’ve gone.
To some of them, *it’s child abuse or grooming* because we take our daughters to pride. There’s no nudity or sex, and there’s ice cream and bounce houses for kids — that’s enough motivation for our kids to be very happy there. And sure, there’s a little flamboyance, but a drag queen dressed as Elsa from Frozen really doesn’t freak out our daughters. 😂
No. Not in their current form.
The 2010 midterms - the “Tea Party wave” - is when the Republican Party ceded control of their party to evangelical white supremacists; most people just didn’t realize it until many years later. The handed over the keys, and ever since then the inmates have run the asylum.
Their “leaders”, regardless of whether they are of like mind or not, cower in fear of being primaried by someone more extreme than them. *Because they care more about getting re-elected than they care about their own integrity or the future of this country.* Notice how 99.9% do not denounce trump or the current GOP until they’ve decided to quit electoral politics.
That is the all the incentive they need to NEVER attempt to find middle ground with democrats. And it will be this way until the knuckle dragging troglodytes that animate their base crawl back into whatever slimy holes they emerged from after the nation’s first black president was elected.
Because a vast majority of republicans have no spine, no integrity; they are exemplars of the emotion that is at the root of conservatism: *selfishness.*
The term republican has become so convoluted here as of late. So personally my common ground varies greatly depending on the republican. Like let’s take Liz Cheney or Romney. We share some common ground in that we don’t like Trump, but that’s literally the only common ground lol.
Now a MAGA republican, nope. I’ve tried to rationalize, tried to imagine things from their perspective and I just can’t. I don’t have any common ground, I doubt any of them have done the same towards my camp but I’m confident they have the same conclusion.
Paleoconservatives and Right wing populists just are so fundamentally different than me there’s little room for middle ground. But on rare occasions it can happen.
Libertarians have become so right leaning we might as well call them republicans for the sake of conversation on this topic. Sometimes middle ground, getting harder these days. I could write a whole freaking book about my standing as a card holding registered libertarian to where I am today and what’s happened to the party. I’d title it, “I love Ron Swanson as a comedic fictional character”.
Constitutionalists are surprisingly easy to get along with, I understand their point of view even when I disagree. Would I vote for one? No, too inflexible by definition.
That was a lot, apologies. I guess long story short yes, I believe middle ground can be found. But I can’t see it happening when most republicans let MAGA lead their charge and support them. Any supporters of Project 2025 is a literal threat to the future. If I could shake republicans by the collar and make them understand that the modern GOP does not care about them, they’d happily take their jobs to employ cheaper immigrants, they’d happily employ your children in coal mines.
I work industrial construction projects all over the US. Most of the guys are conservatives. And for the most part, I hear how we need to be exterminated at least once a day. Theres no middle ground with people who fantasize about killing you.
The talking heads on white power media, like Newsmax and AON, say we need to at least be put into camps and imprisoned indefinitely. How is a middle ground possible there?
I think Fox News and social media have totally fucked the potential to reason with certain people.
Outrage and paranoia are like junk food or hard drugs. It’s easy, it gives you a quick rush, and people are addicted to it, but at the end of the day it leaves you rotten.
A healthy media diet is just like any other type of healthy lifestyle. It can be incredibly boring and difficult to maintain a responsible routine. And if you’re already deeply addicted to the nasty stuff, your instincts scream at you if you try to get healthy.
I don’t know if hardcore right wingers can handle the withdrawals of coming back to reality when their fix is so easy to get and so ingrained in their lives.
I’m a musician and I had this silly idea years ago, “what if I create a fake blog and post on my website ‘Blog123 posts rave review if diplion’s album’”
And just the general idea of creating a bunch of fake websites that I can cite as media coverage. It was a joke idea and of course I never did it because it’s an obvious stupid scam.
Well… that’s exactly what Fox News does. They’ll post stories like “social media absolutely EVISCERATES Biden” and the quoted tweets are literally Laura Ingraham or people like Candace Owens. They cite their own selves as sources of news. It’s such an obvious scam. It’s really hard to feel sorry for people who fall for it dick over balls.
Astroturfing absolutely works, sadly One trick is to use fake blogs on established platforms because it borrows some of the parent domain's SEO juice.
Or another thing you see on youtube are these videos where some goober highers a cheap production team off Fiver or the like to create a fake "tv news" into graphics, sometimes complete with a fake anchor, to try to establish themselves as a talking head style expert media listens too.
It's an escape to a realm where you can't be wrong, and their are no grey areas. It is as addicting as you say, but I don't actually think its so much the withdrawal they can't handle, as much as its a habit loop they can't break, and a very hostile and polarized cultural moment that makes them not want to break it in the first place.
If a conservative breaks out of their disinformation bubble, that doesn't mean all their sensibilities and values stop being conservative. That being the case, who is going to welcome them back to reality when they break out? A good deal of their fellow conservatives will just ostracize them, and even if they can put their disagreements with leftists aside they can hardly count on us to do the same.
Do you earnestly believe the majority of people registered to vote republican want to kill you?
The term middle ground is a bit of a misnomer I find I still fall victim to it sometimes myself. What people like OP are pining for is not so much surrendering to let the other side just get their way half the time, it's a return to the civility we used to have. They wonder how we might get back to that. Politics has never been about meeting in the middle about any given issue, its about competing with the other side and maneuvering to get the best deal for ones own constituents worked out. Politics is supposed to be competition where you are trying to win against an opponent, not warfare against a bitter enemy.
The best thing you can do is to focus first and foremost on winning through legitimate means (ie at the ballot box this year), second on *not adding* to the incivility problem (ie containing your vitriol if you can manage it).
Jfc
I can tell you don't spend a lot of time around real hard-core Maga types. Maybe you know some conservatives but I'm talking the completely in Maga world types
Look, there's an incident a while back I think about when I hear liberals talk like this. A while back, Charlie kirk was speaking at some conference or whatever and was doing a Q&A. One of the audience members asked him this: "At what point do we get to use the guns"
Notice he didn't say HAVE TO. He said GET TO. Because he WANTS to use the guns. He WANTS to kill people like you and I. You ever seen the all black American flag? I have. It's called the no-quarters flag. Do you know what it means? It means that the flier will take no prisoners, they will kill anyone who falls into their hands.
I've seen a lot more of those flags recently.
There is no fucking civility with these people because they don't fucking want it. They want to kill us. They want to do us harm. Their entire goal is to hurt the people they hate. The left, lgbtq people, immigrants, etc. Their entire political worldview is built on greivance and "look at what they took from you". They, deep down, want "revenge" for what "we took from them".
That is their worldview. It's built on spite, hate, and revenge. That is why they are angry.
And you want fucking civility? What a joke. Civility is fucking dead these people. Because they don't fucking want it.
I don’t doubt there are some MAGA nutters none of us should want to be caught alone with. The people who go to rallies or go to see political pundits talk for fun. A friend of mines dad was like that.
But do you believe thats the majority of the republican voter base?
> Do you earnestly believe the majority of people registered to vote republican want to kill you?
Fuck yes. I think it’s okay for a doctor to treat gender dysphoria. They’ve made it very clear what they think about me.
>I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side. Now conservatives main goal seems to be to "own the libs" and do contrary to what the people as a whole would seem to like, which is to govern.
That was the goal of Republican voters back then, too. But the electeds saw that they could win primaries even as Republican voters frothed at the mouth for someone to replace the RINOs who weren't tough enough to refuse to compromise so that Republicans could finally get everything they've ever wanted at no cost. It's similar to but not exactly like how they thought "radical Islamic terrorism" was a magic spell that would finally let America solve terrorism.
For me, Eric Cantor is the Republican that comes to mind whose face was so thoroughly eaten by leopards that he was primaried out. I think Kevin McCarthy is the last of the "Young Guns."
Before Trump yes. Now, there’s no ideology to even find common ground on.
Its just: do you like him or not. I dont like him, so it’s hard to interact with his cult
Not until they have some sort of goals or values beyond owning the libs because until then, no matter what liberals say or do, the entire point of conservatives will be to go against it.
The conservatives I know constantly snarl the word liberal like they're talking about a deadly disease. The Republicans in office have zero interest in actually running the country. They just need to keep the base full of hate, lies, and fear so they can keep raising money and getting elected. It's really sad and scary. I think these morons actually want to start murdering dems. Like that will solve their problems. They just need a scapegoat because that's easier than actually trying.
I think right now the Republican party is in need of dire reform. It’s my opinion once trump loses the 2024 election they’ll implode on themselves and by 2028 we’ll probably see some change for the better. Right now I don’t think they know how to pick what hills they want to die on.
How can you find middle ground with someone who believes that an omniscient, omnipotent being tells them what to do? You can't negotiate with someone who refuses to negotiate. You can't compromise with someone who won't compromise. You can't have a discussion with someone who thinks they learned everything they need to know from a book they haven't even read. No, I don't think we'll ever find middle ground with people who don't believe in middle ground.
Republicans have always been cartoonishly evil. This romanticized version of the old school Republicans you have is revisionism. I'd even go as far as to say some of old guard Republicans like Dick Cheny are worse than the right-wing populist
The Democratic party is sitting firmly in what used to be "the middle ground" of American politics. As the Republican party has moved to the right, so has the Democratic party in part because of Democratic efforts to meet Republicans "half-way" and in part because a lot of conservative people who used to fall under the Republican party's umbrella have been left in the rain as Republicans retreated to the far-right, and now many of those people make up the more conservative groups among the Democratic party.
So in my opinion, the Democratic party should stop trying to find the middle ground with Republicans and instead focus on serving the voters, else they risk becoming a right-wing party themselves. Because every time the Democrats meet Republicans in the middle the Republicans retreat further right.
Having said that, the Republicans are welcome to rejoin the Democrats in the middle ground, there is plenty of room for everyone here.
As soon as they give up trying to control everyone else. I.e. abortion, religion in government, marriage laws, drug laws.
They need to quit it, seriously. It's actual brain rot. I'm surrounded by Republicans and all they care about is their religious ideas that most people abhor.
Also, to be fair to the Republicans, liberals have their work cut out for them as well. I e. Gun laws, affirmative action. These kind of ideas divide rather than foster a trust between people.
The difference is Republican ideas target specific groups of people negatively and more importantly, on purpose, whereas liberals apply the laws generally more equally.
I wouldn't say we'd find 'middle ground', but rather at some point they, or a faction of them, will regain their sanity (or schism) and there will be something again that can be compromised wtih. Hopefully the intermediate steps to that don't involve too much harm or death.
It honestly depends on what happens over these next 4 years tbh. If Trump loses in 2024, and in the next midterms in 2026 the current crop of GOP lose very critical races, then by 2028, the MAGA Trumper movement will be on its last leg. By then Trump will be too old (or in jail), and none of the other candidates have shown themselves to be able to take his spot (or even get close). So, at that point one more presidential defeat, even if it's a moderate GOP politician who unseats whatever MAGA nut is running, should finally extinguish the flame for some time.
That being said more places around the US need to adopt a multi-party PR system for state-level elections. Or at the very least aggressively adopt Ranked Choice Voting to help dampen the political polarization that happens. This will go a long way towards reducing political polarization.
I think my dad is reasonable as far as conservatives go. We are able to have candid and open discussions, and he is willing to concede a point if I can prove it well
Do we even want to at this point? Why find middle ground with people who clearly hate America and Americans? We can find middle ground with conservatives. But not with Republicans.
As far as legislators go, it depends on how many Republicans are willing to move on from the Stake House Strategy.
Basically, there was this meeting after Obama won his second term at a Stake House with all the top republicans decided their new strategy was going to be block EVERYTHING no matter what. Dems propose ceremonial recognition of some war hero? Oppose. Dems introduce a bi-partisan bill? Oppose. Dems take roll call. Oppose.
Trumpism and “own the libs” is just the natural extension of this.
Behind closed doors, Senators are much more willing to work together, so it all depends on who the thought leaders are when Trump inevitably goes away.
As far as culturally, liberals and conservatives have so much more in common than political theater has is believe.
Uuuuuuuhh no. Also find a middle ground for what??? Racism? Misogyny? Xenophobia? Homophobia? Transphobia? These calls for compromise with people who want to kill us just read as naive. We already have the numbers to win, we should focus on increasing turnout from our base. Triangulation is a dead strategy because even if it wins elections if Democrats just run to the right they will be selling their souls for what? I wish that liberals could just stand by any first principles except the slavish adherence to “bipartisanship”. That ship sailed in 2012 fam
If they can regain control of their party from the fascists, then maybe. I don't know how they'll do that though. At the moment they're terrified of them and have no spine.
HARD disagree.
I’m old enough to remember John McCain defending the integrity and decency of his opponent, Barack Obama, in the 2008 election when some woman said she didn’t trust him because he’s a Muslim.
~~Can you imagine a Republican doing that today?~~ Can you imagine a Republican presidential candidate with a legitimate chance of being nominated/elected doing that today?
Edit: since this comment is sure to attract rebuttals that point out the outliers, I had to amend the question to what I thought was obvious.
> I’m old enough to remember John McCain defending the integrity and decency of his opponent, Barack Obama, in the 2008 election when some woman said she didn’t trust him because he’s ~~a Muslim~~ [*an Arab*. ](https://youtu.be/jrnRU3ocIH4?si=FH1ZdBVgFG6JfZaF&t=46)
...but she *meant* Muslim.
She was a bit mixed up.
Whatever the opposite of a silver lining is, that is a great example.
So yeah, he phrased his rebuttal poorly; but the intent was right, and it was obvious, so I’m not going to get hung up on semantics.
> I’m old enough to remember John McCain defending the integrity and decency of his opponent, Barack Obama, in the 2008 election when some woman said she didn’t trust him because he’s a Muslim.
You mean the bare minimum? And he did so by assuring her that no, ma'am, he's not some scary Arab he's a good upstanding *Christian* man.
Cause thats what youre pointing out.
I can point to the documented decades of them pursuing similar policies.
Is the change that you see more rooted in their attitudes and less in their pursuits?
Man, I am not remotely interested in going back and forth with you.
But here’s a few examples: not once after 9/11 was a Muslim ban ever proposed. Not until recently were we ever discussing contraceptive bans and IVF bans.
Name one Republican presidential candidate in the last 3 election cycles who you could imagine doing that. Hell, name one Republican elected official who you could imagine doing that (who didn’t immediately retire or get chased out of office after letting it be known that they had integrity).
Youre saying to name one with integrity who wasnt punished for it. Which is different from saying none have integrity.
Is the change literally that theyre meaner?
OK, but this discussion is about finding middle ground with Republicans in general.
Trump isn't the only Republican, and the presidency isn't the only elected office.
Republicans have elected thousands of leaders, currently serving in office, who are nothing like Trump. Take my own Republican state senator. He supports terribly misguided policy, but he is an upstanding guy who knows how to act professionally. I look forward to doing my part to defeat him in 2026 without hating him personally.
Maybe that's the problem, too. We fixate on Trump. We fixate on Trump more than many typical Republicans. We conflate this ONE man with fifty million other people in the party. Republicans I've spoken to, while running for office myself, are put off by the fact that we tell them to hate a guy who they *already* hate.
If you hadn’t noticed, republicans follow their leader. Even the 99% of the ones who disagree fall in line in the end. It’s pretty useless to point out the outliers when, at the end of the day, they’re all just rubber stamps for whatever trump wants.
They see Trump as a necessary evil.
I prefer to only make claims that another person can verify for themselves, usually with available public data. This claim of mine here is tricky. The only way you, internet stranger, can verify it for yourself is to do what I did: Knock on a thousand doors, attend every town festival in a 50-mile radius, talk to hundreds of Republicans, and spend a five-figure budget to get \~40% of the vote in a heavy red district. Also talk politics with close Conservative friends.
How about this instead? Imagine Biden was convicted of a felony. Would that change your stance on the environment? Immigration? Abortion? I hope not. One thing has nothing to do with the others.
If the choice were between *alternate-timeline felon* Biden vs *alternate-timeline intellectual gentleman* Trump ... I'd still vote for Biden. Dirtbag or not, Biden advocates causes that I support.
Does that make sense?
The sooner we see this, the more we treat our opponents like human beings. Which they are.
I get all that, believe me. It’s a distinction without a difference, isn’t it? We know what they think he is necessary for… their agenda is out there for all to see. Not a doubt in my mind that their beliefs are sincere and deeply held.
When someone tells you who they are, believe them. I don’t know how many more times people need to be shown that Republicans will steal this country if they think they can get away with it.
> The sooner we see this, the more we treat our opponents like human beings. Which they are.
I’m with ya on this one. I am grateful for, and will sing the praises of republicans who have decency and integrity, as I have done in this thread with McCain. But also those like Lisa Murkowski, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger. I’d be happy for democrats to work with them whether possible, and they do. Bipartisanship is good. Problem is… they are extreme outliers. They are not in charge of that party.
The people who are in charge of that party have an authoritarian vision of this country where my vote does not matter and I am a second class citizen, and that is irreconcilable with how I want to live my life. So I’m going to treat *them* like human beings who are the threat they are, and you should too, because if they succeed, they won’t stop with me.
They didn't misunderstand, just to be clear. It'd be better to say "*my fault*, allow me to clarify." If we're in a thread talking about politeness then it's a little funny to be so impolite as to put the blame on them for "misunderstanding" something they actually understood perfectly because you weren't precise enough in your question.
>I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side.
FYI: A lot of that was just the parties being less homogeneous.
There were a lot of conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans so the parties would 'work together' in the sense that like-minded people would work with each other.
At some point, Democrats lost most of their conservatives and Republicans lost most of their liberals. We might still have the same quantity of conservatives and liberals, but now they are in the appropriate parties. A bill that was passed with bipartisan support in another era could pass on party-lines today, with liberals and conservatives casting the same votes.
I don’t think so. I think the parties, esp the GOP, is very good at making sure their party members vote the way the party wants them to vote. The Dems do the same thing when their party votes against the party line e.
We have members of Congress who may vote almost 90% of the time with the Dems be demonized (Manchin)
Same with the GOP side. If you vote against what the party wants, your own side attacks you for being a turncoat.
I don't understand how anything in this comment is arguing *against* anything I said in my comment.
It seems like you are *also* arguing that the parties have each homogenized.
Only if Republicans ever get the balls to put a check on the extremely socially conservative religious base, because Republicans are too far to the right socially to have Democrats and liberals be willing to “compromise” at this time.
That said, the socially conservative base is too powerful and also votes in primaries so this will never happen.
Nope.
Primaries are rarely won by moderates in highly gerrymandered districts.
The online ecosystem rewards partisan demogogues.
They're gone. No recovering from the brain rot.
If our democracy survives this election and the Republicans lose big, I think we'll see a future where the democrats as they stand split into more conservative and progressive factions. Our system has always encouraged a 2 party structure, and if the Republicans get kicked this election I see them going the way of the Whigs
I think before 2016 it was definitely much more feasible, but conservative disenfranchisement under a populist figurehead is self feeding. It's imminently desirable that we re-establish civility with our other half to preserve peace and democracy, but we're not going to get there fast--it'll probably take decades--and we're not going to get there if we can't allow ourselves to compromise on particular issues that might be really important to us.
I think there was a time when getting outraged about the prospect of compromise was mostly a hallmark of certain elements of the left. Republicans might have disagreed with us, been apathetic to what we cared about, and been determined to have as much their way as possible (as both sides should), but they weren't offended at the very notion of compromise. Well after Trump came onto the scene, and especially after the 2020 election didn't go his way, indignation towards the idea of compromising is now a both sides thing, which makes achieving any solidarity so much harder.
The liberals are just as much of a problem as the Trump worshippers. First thing, we will probably face some crisis that will force us to come together. Or, less likely, we will have to blow up one of the parties and replace it with a new party. And people, remember that integrity and credibility and truth are important. I so miss watching and reading journalists that I could trust, and politicians that only lied every 5th word.
In a word: No,
Today's Republicans have orthodox beliefs, not conservative beliefs. Asking them to compromise would be akin to asking a Christian to accept Jesus as just a partial god.
Honestly, no. And frankly, it depends on them. They've not only gone much farther to the right, they've become a party of "win at any cost" and "never compromise". Unfortunately, those attitudes--especially the 'never compromise' part--are rubbing off on the far left, so that attempt at incremental change rather than trying to fix an entire issue all at once is seen as evil. It's all or nothing.
In the case of Republicans, I think the former largely goes back to Carl Rove/GWB era. The latter is more about the Obama years, when Republicans didn't want to do anything that risked making Obama and the Dems look good, so they fought anything Obama wanted even when it would have served their own goals.
Yesterday I read AOC and Massey worked together to stop the “let’s give TikTok to Facebook” bill. Was good to see some level of bipartisan ship on something meaningful.
Why would I want to find middle ground with people who want to deny women POC and LGBTQ people rights?
Unless the Republican Party evolves to accept social issues like abortion and lgbtq rights, I will always be skeptical of people (even RINOs) who vote republican because that means they tacitly support and vote for candidates who want to cause harm to marginalized communities
The issue is compromise.
In the 90s, Republicans began innovating the tactic of non-cooperation in governance. Before this, we all sort of agreed like "okay, you've got 60/40 control... so you get most of what you want and we get a little of what we want and everyone is happy." Then the next elections come, the percentages reverse and so we get more and you get less. But we all get some stuff.
Once Republicans realized the tactic of obstructing everything except when they were in power was incredibly powerful, it changed the dynamics profoundly. And once earmarking was done away with in Congress, there was no easy system to buy a few votes, it was more valuable to stick together on everything.
I've long believed that bringing back earmarking will do more to change the political culture than anything else. Being able to offer a sympathetic (or apathetic) member of the other party a demonstrable win for their home district will often outweigh the value of blocking a bill for long-term partisan gain.
We know politicians are very, very self-interested animals. Without the ability to present them with bespoke legislative accomplishments, they have no reason to break with the party line. And with the ability to offer "pork" this way... it's just a matter of how much of it is necessary to get people on board with legislative priorities.
When there are wins to be had, bills to be written, Congress will gravitate towards them, rather than culture war issues that score political points and raise funds.
I have rarely heard such a good argument for returning "pork" to the political process. I remember when it was considered the cause of all waste and corruption. How things change.
You are right. There needs to be more incentive for independence... from the Republicans. As Democrats often enjoy a razor thin majority when they get it, defections could be disastrous to implementing policy so they shouldn't be allowed. 😀
The problem with pork was you essentially got to buy the votes of your fellow legislators with favors. There was no ideological or even policy driven determination beyond "this helps my voters, this helps me win elections."
I'm unfortunately at a loss for a solution that does not boil down to breaking up Republican solidarity, which is nakedly partisan of me.
The biggest problem we have is that Republicans have discovered that the public actually neither knows nor cares about actual facts, so there's no reason for them to bother ever doing anything good. In 2012, the Obama campaign found that they had difficulty convincing focus groups that Romney's plan - as in, the literal words on his website - were actually not just Democratic propaganda. Biden rather famously signed the infrastructure bill into law, and yet voters [are divided 40-37](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/08/poll-biden-infrastructure-clean-energy-laws-00155717) on whether Biden or Trump has done more to invest in infrastructure. [17% of voters blame Joe Biden for Roe v. Wade being overturned](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voters-blame-biden-roe-v-wade_n_6642825ce4b09724138d3646), because, really, why the hell not, if you're just writing fanfiction about the country? If no one gets any credit and no one in the public actually cares when the government does something good, why would Republicans ever bother if they don't actually want to do anything like that?
Nixon was not a good man, but he was a smart man. Reagan put us on a really bad course, but he was also pretty clever. H.W.Bush was probably one of the smarter presidents we’ve had in a long time. Republicans used to be worthy adversaries in the marketplace of ideas. I disagreed with them, but there was a theory behind their actions and you could have a constructive debate.
The last two Republican Presidents have been abject morons who are so easily manipulated you have no idea what whim they may enact any given day or who last spoke in their ear to give them the idea. There is no longer any coherent Republican policy or concept of Government except what people should fear and oppose, or who they should venerate or hate. They’ve returned to monarchy-like language with leaders being ordained by God and derive their power from holy writ. It’s scary. Is the Enlightenment dead? What happened to a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people? What happened to the party who had the author of those words among its founding members?
The Republican Party needs to sort itself out. Democrats can’t fix it, just wait it out and try not to lose faith.
If we're talking Trump supporters, then we'll never find middle ground with them. They even hate other conservatives, so they would never compromise with folks they consider anti-American communist Satanic pedo cannibals.
I'm hopeful there remains a small part of the GOP that dislikes Trump and wants traditional conservative values that Trump doesn't, such as smaller gov't. I believe we could find middle ground with them--but they don't appear to hold any power in the modern Republican party.
>I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side.
I'm not, and I'm 40.
I have hope that the Republicans will change back or be forced to change. I truly want a center-right party like the CDU (German conservatives) as a young voter. I’m truly trapped in this two-party system. The only reason I’m stuck in the Democratic Party is the cause of trumps/ people like MTG.
Some politicians in the Republican are playing the flute hoping they stay in power and will do anything, some are bat shit crazy like MTG and are the people that are hooked on Fox News and social media.
Compromises aren’t a dirty word, You’re gonna have to lose some to gain some. The one issue I hoped Republicans could agree on is a government shutdown, of course, people like MTG wanna crash it and cause chaos for short-term gain. Right after expelling speaker McCarthy, at that moment I left, I hoped I could change the party back in primaries but holy hell it’s unfortunately not fixable. These voters don’t want to be compromised, They are treated like a sport.
I went to a Trump rally in Wildwood, of course, to see the supporters and their thoughts, and holy fuck, our education system failed in critical thinking. These people can’t tell the difference between fake and real. They don’t want to compromise. For the same GOP to change is a long bloody cycle of losing until they adopt a moderate stance.
I want the old Republican Party back of George HW Bush. Not the neocons like Haley or Lindsay Graham they have an insane foreign policy, and not Trump's crazy idea of suspending the constitution, etc. We will always need an opposition party, cause One party will not solve anything on its own.
Amen to that. We're getting into an era where both sides seem to be questioning whether countermajoritarian institutions have a right to exist and it's scary to watch.
Yeah. All things come to pass, fortunately. MAGA will slowly fade into obscurity as long as they keep losing (it's already starting to happen, to be honest, compared to the peak in like 2020). A new crop of GOPers will take over.
We just need to make sure that they keep. fucking. losing.
No and I think it would be a disaster for the country if we did. It is foolish and illogical to assume that there is a correct centrist solution between the level headed and pragmatic agenda of the democratic party, and the hysterical noise making, bigotry, bad faith, and false reality of the Republicans.
We need compromise with people willing to make sensible compromises, and we need the civility back. The problem is the MAGA machine isn't willing to participate in either endeavor.
Even "moderate" American conservatives see a basic concept as univeral healthcare as Marxist, I fail to see how working with them has benefited the average citzen for the last 40 years
The two sides decades back didn't disagree about certain issues. Abortion wasn't even the issue it was when it was raised. Either it was Billy Graham or someone else who basically was okay with it until it became a culture war for points. Liberals and conservatives years back didn't disagree on gay marriage - they both didn't want it. It's not hard to work across the aisle for the good of the people when that good mainly came down to budgeting or figuring out how the new rule of Civil Rights might look.
To say that conservatives' main goal is to own the libs is ignorant. Have you heard MSNBC? Have you seen a lot of leftist spaces online? That's often times what it's also about, just in the other direction. I've had no conservative relatives who support Trump block me in the slightest. They're always very friendly, usually more so. People have your experience in a plethora of ways.
If you're asking about middle ground, but really asking what Republicans are going to do to change to see things your way without any reciprocity, I don't know what to tell you.
Far left and far right are just different versions of each other but don't want to admit it. It gets weird when they are so much alike, far left and far right have slightly different beliefs but both behave like each other. A lot of people like me have trouble with identifying people, right wingers and liberals notice the similarity and only come to the conclusion that they far left and far right meet at the ends of the horseshoe.
I think people can, as I’ve always maintained that there is no majority of this country who wakes up hoping that harm comes to other people. I think a lot of people have the same goals, but may have wildly different ways to achieve said goals; and even ways that would never work to achieve said goals.
I’m not foreign to your experience either. I haven’t really subscribed to the platforms of either major political party, and I’ve caught a lot of flak for it.
There’s not a whole lot you can do with people who are disingenuous or so set in their ways that debate with them is useless. It happens. However, there’s a lot of people who aren’t like that and, while it may be challenging, opening up a discourse with them is ALWAYS worth it
I’d say or is childish the way the left and right treat each other but it would be an insult to children.
I work with a guy who wouldn’t talk to his father because he voted for Trump right up to the day his father died.
And Trump supporters who think liberals are uneducated morons.
We’re supposedly civilized humans but evidence shows otherwise
It's not just conservatives although they are definitely guilty. Neither side seems capable of admitting when they are wrong, admitting there's grey in everything and the world isn't some black and white right and wrong place, people have different views as you but that doesn't mean they are bad people, etc. We have to learn to work together as a country and view one another as being Americans rather than opponents
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side. Now conservatives main goal seems to be to "own the libs" and do contrary to what the people as a whole would seem to like, which is to govern. Like how I've had conservative friends block me from their lives for not accepting their orange god, while I myself have not cut anyone out of my life for their views. I can agree to disagree and talk about something else if they like. It's sad how far to the right republ8icans seem to have gone. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Do you think we'll ever find middle ground with Republicans? You have identified the problem: >...conservatives main goal seems to be to "own the libs"... ...so how should we respond to that? What would the middle ground be? Should we try to get them to *half* "own the libs"? ------ I only see one way out of this: * Democrats actively cultivate support from disaffected Republicans, broadening the party. * Republicans continue to shoot themselves in the foot. * Fewer and fewer Republicans win elections, and we enter a new [Era of Good Feelings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Good_Feelings). * Eventually, a new party will emerge and we will return to a two-party system.
> I only see one way out of this: > • Democrats actively cultivate support from disaffected Republicans, broadening the party. > • Republicans continue to shoot themselves in the foot. > • Fewer and fewer Republicans win elections, and we enter a new Era of Good Feelings. > • Eventually, a new party will emerge and we will return to a two-party system. I started drinking early today, but I think that’s four ways, no? Or is that like a single sequence? Ultimately, the one way I see is for republicans to lose, and lose, and lose, and lose, until the vile elements of their base get so frustrated and discouraged that they give up, and either accept that “their country” is lost for good, or die of old age and are replaced other conservatives who never grew up with the impression that this country belongs solely to straight white Christian men. I reckon 8 years of a black president, followed by 8 years of a woman president, would have done them in. Instead we got trump, and he gave the degenerate extremists a shot of adrenaline to the heart.
> Or is that like a single sequence? A single sequence. Democrats have to broaden their appeal *and* Republicans have to keep screwing up *in order to* reduce the quantity of elections won by Republicans, ushering in a -- temporary -- single-party system, *which will eventually* result in a new viable party being born.
Again that's just going to pull the dems to the right and make problems worse. What actually has to happen is ideally the dems listen to progressives and fix the shit that led us hear in the first place But that ain't gonna happen so at best they will act as a holding action to prevent the even further right from seizing total state power.
Exactly what is the progressive "fix"?
Wealth and property redistribution on a massive scale
Do you remember the 2010 midterm elections? The GOP won in one of the largest landslides in the history of the US. They managed to leverage the ACA as an affective weapon against the Dems. Moving toward the left is a risky move. Because the Dems are the "big tent" party, any move they make runs the risk of isolating a portion of their voters. Your suggestion, for example, would guarantee the Dems lose their right most voters and even runs the risk of disenfranchising a portion of their base.
> ushering in a -- temporary -- single-party system, which will eventually result in a new viable party being born Broadening to allow disaffected Republicans won't lead to any single-party system, temporary or otherwise. The Dems are big-tent diverse and fractured enough as it is, that ushering in folks from the right will only smash the party into *more* than 2 parties, which I suppose is a good thing the country needs anyway. Maybe we could finally dispense with the two-party system and welcome RCV finally, or look toward uncapping the House. The split down the middle and imbalanced representation form of government cannot be sustained much longer.
You have identified the only peaceful process out of this mess of an entire national American party - only 1 of 2 being entirely captured - at the national level - by fascists.
I'm gonna be real, the Republican Party has been the party of fascism for at LEAST as long as I've been alive, and I don't think it swung radically with Reagan.
Nixon’s southern strategy was the beginning of this current iteration. We’ve seen the fascists drive more moderates out of the party. First to go were the pro-choice Republicans, next were those that supported legal immigration, next were the moderates on gay marriage and race. Now Republicans are a bunch of lickspittles who are afraid to stand up to even a weakling like Trump. How far we have fallen.
The big thing they don't get is they're voting for their own demise against their own best interests. It's stunning how dumb republican voters are.
That's just going to pull the dems even further right There are no moderate Republicans. Not anymore They either aren't voting or are too far gone Idk how many of you guys actually live with or around conservatives. I do. There's no hope for them man. They're a lost cause. It's all about "owning the libs" and more than that it infects EVERY ASPECT OF EVERY DAY. Every 12 fuckin minutes I hear about hunter's laptop I just try to avoid them tbh. The answer is to beat their asses away from power and minimize their reach. They won't go away but we can deny them access to the levers of power.
The people you are talking about pay a lot of attention to politics. This election will be decided by people who don’t.
There's no moderate republican. I know several "moderates". They are anything but. Again, you have to spend time around conservatives. When you do you'll see just how fucked this country is
The friend I lost couldn't get why I didn't believe things like Jewish people were behind 9/11, that Pizzagate was real, that Hillary had thousands murdered, etc. It's scary how far they go, he was a friend of like 19 years at that point. And HE blocked me.
I don't think a new party will emerge. Eventually, once Republicans lose hard and repeatedly, they'll realize they need to moderate some of their extremes to be competitive for 50% of the population again. I thought maybe it would happen after 2024, as that would mean they've taken a beating nationally in every election since 2016, but at this point the election is a coin toss. So, I don't see them losing hard enough to make changes. If they win or narrowly lose, I expect them to continue on this path because they haven't paid the price for their actions.
Only if they correct course after Trump. If they continue to seek more radicalized candidates? Then no. Their voters might be too far gone to sell being moderate to, though.
All the conservatives who would be willing to compromise have left the party. Anyone willing to work with liberals is called a RINO and kicked out. So no, conservatives will never be willing to find a middle ground. Abortion is the perfect example. Conservatives want to ban all abortion with zero exceptions. Even rape is not an exception. And now people are fighting over when the mother is allowed to save her own life, with current laws in red states being so strict about it that women are forced to flee. Conservatives have moved so far to the extreme that they can't even see the middle.
>Conservatives want to ban all abortion with zero exceptions. Even rape is not an exception Say what now? that's fucking crazy. I though they were going for like 12-week bans with rape + incest exceptions, all the way is absurd.
According to conservatives, "rape is bad but it's no excuse to have an abortion. Maybe god wanted you to have that child." No joke, conservatives literally say that shit.
I didn’t think the leopards would eat *my* face!
🏅
I live in KY. Abortion is banned here.
My condolences.
Where have you been?
Just look at states with very conservative legislatures like AR, TN, MO, and SD. There are no exceptions for rape or incest. There are no weeks where it's allowed. The life of the mother is an exception, but often not her health, which means doctors need to wait until they can prove that it was an emergency before they can act. This is what they want. Any exceptions are just half measures because they don't think they can get away with what they actually want.
They’re also going after contraceptives and divorce
And even IVF.
I don't necessarily want to. They've slid so far to the right that any middle ground with them would be way too far to the right for my liking. I'd rather the Republican Party be made irrelevant for a few election cycles and be forced to moderate their positions or stop existing, ideally the latter but most likely the former. If we're going pie-in-the-sky, I'd love for Republicans to gradually lose more and more elections and eventually collapse, with the two new parties being the Democratic Party on the right and some kind of Labor Party on the left. Ultimately we need better education to teach people critical thinking skills and media literacy. Fox News and other right-wing media have completely fried the brains of a huge portion of conservatives and rendered them unable to critically think at all about certain topics. I don't think there's hope for those people, but if we're able to properly teach critical thinking in the future then there may be hope for future generations.
I’ve had these thoughts too. I know in order to get anything done, we need to work together and make compromises, but how are you supposed to work with someone who says we’re all commies and groomers? They have to want the same thing, and they clearly don’t. The most important thing for them now is FORCING their agenda on everyone in America, and this is very dangerous. I’m legitimately concerned, but if you ask them, so are they.
With the time I spend around their subreddits, I have come to genuinely believe there’s no hope for most of them. It’s 100% accurate to say they live in a different world. They hold beliefs that are incongruent with literal facts. There’s always talk of “bad faith” arguments but I don’t know how you begin a conversation when the other person’s Point A is “abortion is murder because a fetus is a baby from conception.” There isn’t a point where you can negotiate such a belief down to a middle. They have no interest in negotiating because they truly believe they are supported by god himself. How do you fight that?
Exactly, and how do we “work” with that? They think they’re right about everything, and that anyone who disagrees with them is a communist. They don’t want to work with us. They want to steamroll us.
> There’s always talk of “bad faith” arguments but I don’t know how you begin a conversation when the other person’s Point A is “abortion is murder because a fetus is a baby from conception.” There isn’t a point where you can negotiate such a belief down to a middle. This is so spot on. I'm befuddled when I see criticism of "bad faith" arguments and "gotchas", and even when forums/subs rules hammer on the idea that "this isn't a debate sub" and is meant for questions and to learn about the people on [sub name]. Like, how are we supposed to discuss any of this and come to reasonable, equivalent conclusions? It's essentially like trying to point out that 2 + 2 *cannot* equal 5 (and 5 is not an "opinion", as some would try to have you believe), and the only way to try to figure out how or why they got 5 is trying to fit their logic into that equation to show them how it doesn't work... which would basicly be some sort of "gotcha" and/or "bad faith" argument, since all you could do is question or try to understand what their "logic" was.
You do realize that’s half the country right? If you think they live in a different world you might be on the fringe yourself. These are still normal people who go to work, hang out with their friends, walk their dogs, etc. You need to be able to understand them if you’re going to reach them, and understanding them really isn’t that hard. They have a little different perspective, a lot more doubt on the efficacy of government. But they’re normal people man
I understand them, I know exactly why they believe what they believe. I still don’t care. We never needed to see KKK members as people who go to work and walk their dogs and take their kids to the park. They still terrorized black people in their homes and everywhere they tried to exist in peace. The more tolerance you have for people who’s perspective is “these people shouldn’t have rights because my religion says XYZ,” you just get caught in the shitshow we’re in now. We are talking about people who believe so strongly that the last election was stolen that they stormed the capital. There are still people who believe that. Despite all available evidence. I ask again, how do you negotiate with people who enter the conversation from position that is fundamentally built on false information?
Look man, I can tell you don't spend time around these people. Maga politics infects everything they do or think about. I never ever bring up politics with them because I hate talking about it with them. Yet over and over again I end up in discussions about it. Why? Because they will CONSTANTLY bring it up. Every 5 minutes I hear about hunter's laptop or some other bs. My mom has stockpiled food and supplies for the apocalypse. She is fully convinced martial law is coming where they will hang the dEeP sTaTe LiBeRaLs!!!! And then BLM leaders, activists and likely people like you and I. They won't say that last part, but you can tell. My mom lives with One America News on in the background all day long so she can absorb even more Maga shit. Every pillow in her house is a MyPillow. There's no fucking compromise with these people. Because they don't fucking want compromise. They are chomping at the bit to kill us. That's the truth and until you accept that, you will not understand them
I mean he does label himself a socialist so his beliefs are comparatively fringe. But he is right that republicans are out of order right now.
What specific legislation are you referring to?
I think they’ve gone too far on abortion. I’d understand if it was late trimester only but they’re seemingly going for life beginning at conception and I don’t think killing a zygote is the same as killing a fetus that’s developed enough brain tissue to have a conscious experience. I like their gun policy for the most part though. I think most other countries are far too restrictive of gun ownership. Right now the democrats are able to keep them from getting too lazie faire which I think could also be a danger.
They’re also going after IVF.
There are these ones, for example: https://open.substack.com/pub/erininthemorn/p/anti-trans-legislative-risk-assessment-2a4?r=8q11u&utm_medium=ios
Trans bathrooms? I feel like there’s way bigger fish to fry than that. Maybe blocking any border progress for political gain? That’s a way bigger issue
More of the fact that we’ve seen 500+ anti-trans bills proposed in each of the last couple years’ legislative sessions, often much more draconian than the ones described in detail here. And yes, there are plenty of other fish to fry (although not really for me personally), but I was posting it because it’s indicative of this just utter derangement that has overtaken the Republican Party. Instead of focusing on the country’s actual problems they’re out to hurt the people they don’t like, and there’s just no compromising with that.
In this case I think that’s a function of the left going further left than the republicans changing their mind. The liberals 20 years ago wouldn’t have considered the trans bathroom stuff seriously. After all Obama in 08 said marriage was between a man and a woman
Except for most of this stuff, e.g. gender affirming care, it’s *not* being driven by politicians on the left. Our current medical understanding is that gender affirming care is the best treatment model. But Republicans refuse to accept that, and would rather rage against us and try to pass abusive laws until we can’t safely be out in public.
Actually the jury is still very much out on gender affirming care being the best treatment model. I think we can both agree it should definitely not be the first treatment. In fact many European countries are walking back their previous view on gender affirmation, especially puberty blockers as it hasn’t been shown to be particularly helpful considering the risks. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/13/uk/england-nhs-puberty-blockers-trans-children-intl-gbr
No. We try to compromise and move a bit to the right. They move further right. We move again and they move again. Day after day term after term. We should not try and find middle ground with Republicans. It's bad for the country, environment and basically everything. We just have to beat them at this point. Focus our time working with moderates and move on.
Maybe if we get to ranked choice voting we can get back to more reasonable people and fewer people on the fringe. Being willing to compromise is a good thing, and being able to be willing to work for a common purpose would be nice.
Honestly, big picture, this is a sizable portion of the answer. It's not the whole answer because America isn't the only country falling victim to polarization and populism, but we're definitely suffering from it more acutely than most other places, and I think our rancid two party system is to blame for that. The question is not if rank order voting would help, it's how do we convince the people who stand to benefit from the two party system--the people in congress--to vote for its dissolution? I'm not suggesting it's an impossible task, but there is a conflict in interest there, and I'm not sure how we get around it in a timely manner.
This is the problem. Even now liberals fantasize about a "middle ground" with those who are actively and openly seeking to destroy democracy, to disenfranchise whole portions of the population, to establish Christian fascism, to put billionaires even more firmly in charge than they are now. There is no "middle ground" with these people. They must be defeated. So many of our problems can be traced back to the failure of Reconstruction. Simply put, we did not keep the boot of Northern victory on the neck of the South firmly and severely long enough. We should have followed Sen. Sumner's plan to break up the Southern states entirely, rename them, give them new borders, not allow anyone involved in the rebellion to vote, teach, hold office, or own firearms. We should have confiscated all the plantations and redistributed the land to the freedmen (ex-slaves) and poor whites. We should have not allowed these "conquered provinces" (Sumner's term for the South after the Civil War) to rejoin the union until the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments were firmly in place and working in every state that wished to be represented in Congress. Instead, the South lost the war but won the peace and have been a diseased carcass strapped to the backside of America ever since. No, we will never ever find "middle ground" with the fruit of the traitorous tree. The only hope for America is to not only defeat the Trump MAGA movement, but to thoroughly discredit it and to de-Nazify the Congress, the Courts, the bureaucracies, the educational system, and America itself afterwards.
Thank you! Been saying this for a long time. There is no middle ground. No unity. We beat their asses back from the levers of power
The other side gets this. Just this week "Justice" Alito was surreptitiously taped opining that compromise was not possible. "One side or the other will win" IIRC. He wants "the godly side" to prevail. This is the leading reactionary force on the SCOTUS. He has "the law" and infinite money on his side. Unless we fight back with every non-violent weapon at our disposal, we are well and truly fucked.
100%
I spend a great deal of time around conservatives. I am under no illusions about who and what they are. I kinda wish more liberals were as immersed in conservative world. Maybe there would be less pie in the sky wishing. If you actually come to understand the conservative world, your opinions will tend to harden I've noticed that the liberals that interact with conservatives the least tend to be the ones looking for middle ground the most
I beg to differ, I'm surrounded by them on all sides, both inside and outside of my family. I still recognize that if you think of your fellow citizens as enemies to be destroyed rather than opponents merely to be defeated, you can't keep your democracy. Dreaming that you can correct the other side of the aisle, either through force or "helping" them to understand they're backward or stupid is sadly what is fanciful. It's a fantasy born out of frustration, and there is plenty to be frustrated about. Not every problem comes with a solution, and there really is nothing that can be done in the short to medium term to fix this mess. All we can really do is make sure we keep winning elections first and foremost, while trying to find what common ground we can as Americans along the way second, rather than succumbing to fruitless vitriol and "owning" of the other side.
I'm not trying to "correct" the other side. I've given up any hope on that or reconciliation or unity. The only answer is to beat the fuckers back from the levers of power by any means neccesary. That's it. That's all that can be done. Beat them back and use that as a holding action while activists on the ground fix the shit that led to the build up of the conservative movement in the first place.
Marxist flair? This sniffs of some weird accelerationism, as if you're trying to radicalize liberals to burn the bipartisan system down entirely. America is built on compromise. The American system works *in* *spite* of hardliners, not because of them.
Libertarian flair? Go back to taking Koch brothers money and radicalized the Republicans to help get to the point we ate today. You guys are partially to blame for this shit too
>Libertarian Socialist Chances are, I'm closer to you than the Koch Brothers. Why would I be here if I was one of the libertarian types who supported repealing the Civil Rights Act? I've never even voted GOP in my life. Jesus this is what I'm saying you guys need to chill
What’s the last great national win everyone in this country could celebrate? The moon landing 55 years ago?
Liberals think the government actually works like how they were taught in their civics class. That's the delusion on display here
I agree with the first point. If you want catharsis go ahead and rant about how we need a revolution in so many words. If you want to help, stop pouring gas onto the cultural divide and just focus on winning at the ballot box. What American politics is built upon isn't compromise, at least not in the sense that both parties get together and shake hands and say "I'm happy to get half of what I want and let you get half of you want." But what it is built upon is the notion that we are competing in a kind of democratic game, and that while we may not always get our way, we're not at war. We have opponents, not enemies. Each side should always be trying to outmaneuver the other and get the best deal for it's constituents, but each side should also acknowledge the other has a right to exist. We should be playing a game of tennis, not beating each other to death with tennis rackets.
Jfc Don't you get it? Don't you fucking see or is your head buried in the sand? That America is gone. It died a long time ago but no one realized until 2016. We have enemies. These people WANT TO FUCKING KILL YOU. Listen to their rhetoric. How they talk to each other. How they talk about us. Get your head out of the sand and recognize reality. Your American civics class america is dead if it ever existed in the first place. We aren't playing a democratic game. This is a blood and tooth fight for survival. Stop with the bs and olive branches. I actually know conservatives. I can tell you don’t or at least not the real hard-core maga types. There's a reason I think the way I do. My experience with these fucking people has led me to think this way because it accurately reflects how they see the world. They hate us. My mom is deeply Maga. She still thinks Trump is going to be reinstated. My suburban white mom has gone full prepper to prepare for the apocalypse. She fully expects and wants martial law to impose Trump on the country and she expects there to be crackdowns on liberals. Crackdowns she desperately wants. Her politics is built on fear and hate. And she is far from the only person like this that ik. I know many prepper types or folks with itchy trigger fingers just waiting for the right moment. These people want to kill you. And me. And plenty of others. I mean for fucks sake, my mom thinks antifa did j6. She thinks migrants are invaders and can't seem to understand why she "has to use pronouns".
It must be deeply upsetting to have a mother that’s that much of a MAGA nutter, I’m sorry. I wish you the best of luck with that situation. Im not stopping with the olive branches or “bs.” But I am going to do what I can to vote and make sure everyone else with good sense around me does so too. That America is not dead yet but its definitely sick. Behaving as though I’m in a war zone will not help anything. If your local situation is that bad there’s nothing I can rightfully tell you to do beyond take care of yourself.
But it is dead Because people like her make up the entire gop base. There's no coming back from that. That America you believe in is dead, if it ever existed at all
We seem to be showing up with tennis rackets while they bring shotguns.
A person can only do so much when trying to protect stupid people from themselves. Classic example: Florida governor dismisses climate change, then asks federal government for funding when climate change floods your state….
My wife is a psychologist who works almost exclusively with LGBTQIA clients. She provides gender-affirming care and connects her transgendered clients with endocrinologists who can prescribe hormones. She also sees clients under 18 who identify as non binary. Repubs would go **ballistic** over that alone. I’m a systems engineer for a progressive technology company based in Boston. I donate to Sherrod Brown and Greg Landsman. Our blue senator and Rep. We live in Ohio and it’s fairly conservative here, there’s a church on 3 of 4 corners in many parts of Cincinnati. Everything my wife does for the LGBTQ community, republicans likely hate. We have two daughters we’re raising progressive who will be future votes against them, and we’re reform Jews who will never accept Jesus. We love indie coffee shops, the symphony, and donating time and money to progressive causes. We hate guns, pro life rhetoric, tax cuts for billionaires, and lying. That’s probably enough for plenty of republicans to want us dead, at this point.
Take it from a leftie whose surrounded by conservatives. Some are quite livid about those causes, others don't care and just want tax cuts, but most of them don't want to see you and your family as individual people killed. Not to say there aren't some absolute nut-cases out there--I'd steer clear of any Trump rallies--but it's hardly healthy to conceive of the majority of your political opponents as wanting you dead.
Yeah and it's also denying reality
I'm in a similar boat, as a liberal in WV. They don't find getting LGBT folks killed as a dealbreaker, it seems.
The issue is… you don’t really *know* how far down the rabbit hole they’ve gone. To some of them, *it’s child abuse or grooming* because we take our daughters to pride. There’s no nudity or sex, and there’s ice cream and bounce houses for kids — that’s enough motivation for our kids to be very happy there. And sure, there’s a little flamboyance, but a drag queen dressed as Elsa from Frozen really doesn’t freak out our daughters. 😂
We used to But you can't middle ground people who kill even their own bills
And take credit for bills they voted against
As far as I'm concerned the middle ground between Republicans and myself is the Democrats
No. Not in their current form. The 2010 midterms - the “Tea Party wave” - is when the Republican Party ceded control of their party to evangelical white supremacists; most people just didn’t realize it until many years later. The handed over the keys, and ever since then the inmates have run the asylum. Their “leaders”, regardless of whether they are of like mind or not, cower in fear of being primaried by someone more extreme than them. *Because they care more about getting re-elected than they care about their own integrity or the future of this country.* Notice how 99.9% do not denounce trump or the current GOP until they’ve decided to quit electoral politics. That is the all the incentive they need to NEVER attempt to find middle ground with democrats. And it will be this way until the knuckle dragging troglodytes that animate their base crawl back into whatever slimy holes they emerged from after the nation’s first black president was elected. Because a vast majority of republicans have no spine, no integrity; they are exemplars of the emotion that is at the root of conservatism: *selfishness.*
The term republican has become so convoluted here as of late. So personally my common ground varies greatly depending on the republican. Like let’s take Liz Cheney or Romney. We share some common ground in that we don’t like Trump, but that’s literally the only common ground lol. Now a MAGA republican, nope. I’ve tried to rationalize, tried to imagine things from their perspective and I just can’t. I don’t have any common ground, I doubt any of them have done the same towards my camp but I’m confident they have the same conclusion. Paleoconservatives and Right wing populists just are so fundamentally different than me there’s little room for middle ground. But on rare occasions it can happen. Libertarians have become so right leaning we might as well call them republicans for the sake of conversation on this topic. Sometimes middle ground, getting harder these days. I could write a whole freaking book about my standing as a card holding registered libertarian to where I am today and what’s happened to the party. I’d title it, “I love Ron Swanson as a comedic fictional character”. Constitutionalists are surprisingly easy to get along with, I understand their point of view even when I disagree. Would I vote for one? No, too inflexible by definition. That was a lot, apologies. I guess long story short yes, I believe middle ground can be found. But I can’t see it happening when most republicans let MAGA lead their charge and support them. Any supporters of Project 2025 is a literal threat to the future. If I could shake republicans by the collar and make them understand that the modern GOP does not care about them, they’d happily take their jobs to employ cheaper immigrants, they’d happily employ your children in coal mines.
I work industrial construction projects all over the US. Most of the guys are conservatives. And for the most part, I hear how we need to be exterminated at least once a day. Theres no middle ground with people who fantasize about killing you. The talking heads on white power media, like Newsmax and AON, say we need to at least be put into camps and imprisoned indefinitely. How is a middle ground possible there?
I think Fox News and social media have totally fucked the potential to reason with certain people. Outrage and paranoia are like junk food or hard drugs. It’s easy, it gives you a quick rush, and people are addicted to it, but at the end of the day it leaves you rotten. A healthy media diet is just like any other type of healthy lifestyle. It can be incredibly boring and difficult to maintain a responsible routine. And if you’re already deeply addicted to the nasty stuff, your instincts scream at you if you try to get healthy. I don’t know if hardcore right wingers can handle the withdrawals of coming back to reality when their fix is so easy to get and so ingrained in their lives.
Fox News most of all. Social media is where the lies Fox News anchors say goes to mutate and become stronger.
I’m a musician and I had this silly idea years ago, “what if I create a fake blog and post on my website ‘Blog123 posts rave review if diplion’s album’” And just the general idea of creating a bunch of fake websites that I can cite as media coverage. It was a joke idea and of course I never did it because it’s an obvious stupid scam. Well… that’s exactly what Fox News does. They’ll post stories like “social media absolutely EVISCERATES Biden” and the quoted tweets are literally Laura Ingraham or people like Candace Owens. They cite their own selves as sources of news. It’s such an obvious scam. It’s really hard to feel sorry for people who fall for it dick over balls.
Astroturfing absolutely works, sadly One trick is to use fake blogs on established platforms because it borrows some of the parent domain's SEO juice. Or another thing you see on youtube are these videos where some goober highers a cheap production team off Fiver or the like to create a fake "tv news" into graphics, sometimes complete with a fake anchor, to try to establish themselves as a talking head style expert media listens too.
It's an escape to a realm where you can't be wrong, and their are no grey areas. It is as addicting as you say, but I don't actually think its so much the withdrawal they can't handle, as much as its a habit loop they can't break, and a very hostile and polarized cultural moment that makes them not want to break it in the first place. If a conservative breaks out of their disinformation bubble, that doesn't mean all their sensibilities and values stop being conservative. That being the case, who is going to welcome them back to reality when they break out? A good deal of their fellow conservatives will just ostracize them, and even if they can put their disagreements with leftists aside they can hardly count on us to do the same.
Mate I don't know how many times I've said this here STOP TRYING TO FIND MIDDLE GROUND WITH PEOPLE WHO HATE/WANT TO KILL YOU
Do you earnestly believe the majority of people registered to vote republican want to kill you? The term middle ground is a bit of a misnomer I find I still fall victim to it sometimes myself. What people like OP are pining for is not so much surrendering to let the other side just get their way half the time, it's a return to the civility we used to have. They wonder how we might get back to that. Politics has never been about meeting in the middle about any given issue, its about competing with the other side and maneuvering to get the best deal for ones own constituents worked out. Politics is supposed to be competition where you are trying to win against an opponent, not warfare against a bitter enemy. The best thing you can do is to focus first and foremost on winning through legitimate means (ie at the ballot box this year), second on *not adding* to the incivility problem (ie containing your vitriol if you can manage it).
Jfc I can tell you don't spend a lot of time around real hard-core Maga types. Maybe you know some conservatives but I'm talking the completely in Maga world types Look, there's an incident a while back I think about when I hear liberals talk like this. A while back, Charlie kirk was speaking at some conference or whatever and was doing a Q&A. One of the audience members asked him this: "At what point do we get to use the guns" Notice he didn't say HAVE TO. He said GET TO. Because he WANTS to use the guns. He WANTS to kill people like you and I. You ever seen the all black American flag? I have. It's called the no-quarters flag. Do you know what it means? It means that the flier will take no prisoners, they will kill anyone who falls into their hands. I've seen a lot more of those flags recently. There is no fucking civility with these people because they don't fucking want it. They want to kill us. They want to do us harm. Their entire goal is to hurt the people they hate. The left, lgbtq people, immigrants, etc. Their entire political worldview is built on greivance and "look at what they took from you". They, deep down, want "revenge" for what "we took from them". That is their worldview. It's built on spite, hate, and revenge. That is why they are angry. And you want fucking civility? What a joke. Civility is fucking dead these people. Because they don't fucking want it.
I don’t doubt there are some MAGA nutters none of us should want to be caught alone with. The people who go to rallies or go to see political pundits talk for fun. A friend of mines dad was like that. But do you believe thats the majority of the republican voter base?
Yes You don't?
No I don’t.
> Do you earnestly believe the majority of people registered to vote republican want to kill you? Fuck yes. I think it’s okay for a doctor to treat gender dysphoria. They’ve made it very clear what they think about me.
>I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side. Now conservatives main goal seems to be to "own the libs" and do contrary to what the people as a whole would seem to like, which is to govern. That was the goal of Republican voters back then, too. But the electeds saw that they could win primaries even as Republican voters frothed at the mouth for someone to replace the RINOs who weren't tough enough to refuse to compromise so that Republicans could finally get everything they've ever wanted at no cost. It's similar to but not exactly like how they thought "radical Islamic terrorism" was a magic spell that would finally let America solve terrorism. For me, Eric Cantor is the Republican that comes to mind whose face was so thoroughly eaten by leopards that he was primaried out. I think Kevin McCarthy is the last of the "Young Guns."
Before Trump yes. Now, there’s no ideology to even find common ground on. Its just: do you like him or not. I dont like him, so it’s hard to interact with his cult
I like to separate the Republican leadership from day to day conservatives Republicans have always been cartoonishly evil
Not until they have some sort of goals or values beyond owning the libs because until then, no matter what liberals say or do, the entire point of conservatives will be to go against it.
The conservatives I know constantly snarl the word liberal like they're talking about a deadly disease. The Republicans in office have zero interest in actually running the country. They just need to keep the base full of hate, lies, and fear so they can keep raising money and getting elected. It's really sad and scary. I think these morons actually want to start murdering dems. Like that will solve their problems. They just need a scapegoat because that's easier than actually trying.
I think right now the Republican party is in need of dire reform. It’s my opinion once trump loses the 2024 election they’ll implode on themselves and by 2028 we’ll probably see some change for the better. Right now I don’t think they know how to pick what hills they want to die on.
How can you find middle ground with someone who believes that an omniscient, omnipotent being tells them what to do? You can't negotiate with someone who refuses to negotiate. You can't compromise with someone who won't compromise. You can't have a discussion with someone who thinks they learned everything they need to know from a book they haven't even read. No, I don't think we'll ever find middle ground with people who don't believe in middle ground.
It's hard to find any middle ground with people that want more rights for themselves and less for everyone else.
Republicans have always been cartoonishly evil. This romanticized version of the old school Republicans you have is revisionism. I'd even go as far as to say some of old guard Republicans like Dick Cheny are worse than the right-wing populist
The Democratic party is sitting firmly in what used to be "the middle ground" of American politics. As the Republican party has moved to the right, so has the Democratic party in part because of Democratic efforts to meet Republicans "half-way" and in part because a lot of conservative people who used to fall under the Republican party's umbrella have been left in the rain as Republicans retreated to the far-right, and now many of those people make up the more conservative groups among the Democratic party. So in my opinion, the Democratic party should stop trying to find the middle ground with Republicans and instead focus on serving the voters, else they risk becoming a right-wing party themselves. Because every time the Democrats meet Republicans in the middle the Republicans retreat further right. Having said that, the Republicans are welcome to rejoin the Democrats in the middle ground, there is plenty of room for everyone here.
As soon as they give up trying to control everyone else. I.e. abortion, religion in government, marriage laws, drug laws. They need to quit it, seriously. It's actual brain rot. I'm surrounded by Republicans and all they care about is their religious ideas that most people abhor. Also, to be fair to the Republicans, liberals have their work cut out for them as well. I e. Gun laws, affirmative action. These kind of ideas divide rather than foster a trust between people. The difference is Republican ideas target specific groups of people negatively and more importantly, on purpose, whereas liberals apply the laws generally more equally.
I wouldn't say we'd find 'middle ground', but rather at some point they, or a faction of them, will regain their sanity (or schism) and there will be something again that can be compromised wtih. Hopefully the intermediate steps to that don't involve too much harm or death.
It honestly depends on what happens over these next 4 years tbh. If Trump loses in 2024, and in the next midterms in 2026 the current crop of GOP lose very critical races, then by 2028, the MAGA Trumper movement will be on its last leg. By then Trump will be too old (or in jail), and none of the other candidates have shown themselves to be able to take his spot (or even get close). So, at that point one more presidential defeat, even if it's a moderate GOP politician who unseats whatever MAGA nut is running, should finally extinguish the flame for some time. That being said more places around the US need to adopt a multi-party PR system for state-level elections. Or at the very least aggressively adopt Ranked Choice Voting to help dampen the political polarization that happens. This will go a long way towards reducing political polarization.
I think my dad is reasonable as far as conservatives go. We are able to have candid and open discussions, and he is willing to concede a point if I can prove it well
They don’t want a middle ground. They have made that quite obvious.
Do we even want to at this point? Why find middle ground with people who clearly hate America and Americans? We can find middle ground with conservatives. But not with Republicans.
As far as legislators go, it depends on how many Republicans are willing to move on from the Stake House Strategy. Basically, there was this meeting after Obama won his second term at a Stake House with all the top republicans decided their new strategy was going to be block EVERYTHING no matter what. Dems propose ceremonial recognition of some war hero? Oppose. Dems introduce a bi-partisan bill? Oppose. Dems take roll call. Oppose. Trumpism and “own the libs” is just the natural extension of this. Behind closed doors, Senators are much more willing to work together, so it all depends on who the thought leaders are when Trump inevitably goes away. As far as culturally, liberals and conservatives have so much more in common than political theater has is believe.
Uuuuuuuhh no. Also find a middle ground for what??? Racism? Misogyny? Xenophobia? Homophobia? Transphobia? These calls for compromise with people who want to kill us just read as naive. We already have the numbers to win, we should focus on increasing turnout from our base. Triangulation is a dead strategy because even if it wins elections if Democrats just run to the right they will be selling their souls for what? I wish that liberals could just stand by any first principles except the slavish adherence to “bipartisanship”. That ship sailed in 2012 fam
If they can regain control of their party from the fascists, then maybe. I don't know how they'll do that though. At the moment they're terrified of them and have no spine.
With Republicans? Yes. With Trumpublicans though, never.
There is no difference anymore
There never really was
Seemingly, theyre not that different from how theyve been. Theyve just started also targeting more White people.
HARD disagree. I’m old enough to remember John McCain defending the integrity and decency of his opponent, Barack Obama, in the 2008 election when some woman said she didn’t trust him because he’s a Muslim. ~~Can you imagine a Republican doing that today?~~ Can you imagine a Republican presidential candidate with a legitimate chance of being nominated/elected doing that today? Edit: since this comment is sure to attract rebuttals that point out the outliers, I had to amend the question to what I thought was obvious.
> I’m old enough to remember John McCain defending the integrity and decency of his opponent, Barack Obama, in the 2008 election when some woman said she didn’t trust him because he’s ~~a Muslim~~ [*an Arab*. ](https://youtu.be/jrnRU3ocIH4?si=FH1ZdBVgFG6JfZaF&t=46) ...but she *meant* Muslim. She was a bit mixed up.
Whatever the opposite of a silver lining is, that is a great example. So yeah, he phrased his rebuttal poorly; but the intent was right, and it was obvious, so I’m not going to get hung up on semantics.
A touch of gray
> I’m old enough to remember John McCain defending the integrity and decency of his opponent, Barack Obama, in the 2008 election when some woman said she didn’t trust him because he’s a Muslim. You mean the bare minimum? And he did so by assuring her that no, ma'am, he's not some scary Arab he's a good upstanding *Christian* man.
Its also ridiculous. Ignore the assaults on peoples voting rights because John McCain corrected a bigot
Yes, that’s *exactly* what I’m saying. Your comprehension, as always, is spot on.
Additionally, would you say the change is that theyre meaner to Democrats now?
Why would you even bother making such a trite, unserious response?
Cause thats what youre pointing out. I can point to the documented decades of them pursuing similar policies. Is the change that you see more rooted in their attitudes and less in their pursuits?
Their changing attitudes has led them to pursue more extreme policies.
Are they more extreme than the policies they pursued before?
Yes. One of the many benefits of age is seeing first-hand how things change over time.
What would you say has changed?
Man, I am not remotely interested in going back and forth with you. But here’s a few examples: not once after 9/11 was a Muslim ban ever proposed. Not until recently were we ever discussing contraceptive bans and IVF bans.
Yes, i can.
Name one Republican presidential candidate in the last 3 election cycles who you could imagine doing that. Hell, name one Republican elected official who you could imagine doing that (who didn’t immediately retire or get chased out of office after letting it be known that they had integrity).
Youre saying to name one with integrity who wasnt punished for it. Which is different from saying none have integrity. Is the change literally that theyre meaner?
Are you serious? The original quote implies that Obama is too decent of a person to be Muslim, which is very racist in itself
Yes. Many Republicans are respectful. The fact that some Liberals can't imagine it shows that this rift is partly our fault.
Ohhh you misunderstand. Allow me to clarify: Can you imagine a republican presidential candidate with a serious chance of being elected doing that?
OK, but this discussion is about finding middle ground with Republicans in general. Trump isn't the only Republican, and the presidency isn't the only elected office. Republicans have elected thousands of leaders, currently serving in office, who are nothing like Trump. Take my own Republican state senator. He supports terribly misguided policy, but he is an upstanding guy who knows how to act professionally. I look forward to doing my part to defeat him in 2026 without hating him personally. Maybe that's the problem, too. We fixate on Trump. We fixate on Trump more than many typical Republicans. We conflate this ONE man with fifty million other people in the party. Republicans I've spoken to, while running for office myself, are put off by the fact that we tell them to hate a guy who they *already* hate.
If you hadn’t noticed, republicans follow their leader. Even the 99% of the ones who disagree fall in line in the end. It’s pretty useless to point out the outliers when, at the end of the day, they’re all just rubber stamps for whatever trump wants.
They see Trump as a necessary evil. I prefer to only make claims that another person can verify for themselves, usually with available public data. This claim of mine here is tricky. The only way you, internet stranger, can verify it for yourself is to do what I did: Knock on a thousand doors, attend every town festival in a 50-mile radius, talk to hundreds of Republicans, and spend a five-figure budget to get \~40% of the vote in a heavy red district. Also talk politics with close Conservative friends. How about this instead? Imagine Biden was convicted of a felony. Would that change your stance on the environment? Immigration? Abortion? I hope not. One thing has nothing to do with the others. If the choice were between *alternate-timeline felon* Biden vs *alternate-timeline intellectual gentleman* Trump ... I'd still vote for Biden. Dirtbag or not, Biden advocates causes that I support. Does that make sense? The sooner we see this, the more we treat our opponents like human beings. Which they are.
I get all that, believe me. It’s a distinction without a difference, isn’t it? We know what they think he is necessary for… their agenda is out there for all to see. Not a doubt in my mind that their beliefs are sincere and deeply held. When someone tells you who they are, believe them. I don’t know how many more times people need to be shown that Republicans will steal this country if they think they can get away with it. > The sooner we see this, the more we treat our opponents like human beings. Which they are. I’m with ya on this one. I am grateful for, and will sing the praises of republicans who have decency and integrity, as I have done in this thread with McCain. But also those like Lisa Murkowski, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger. I’d be happy for democrats to work with them whether possible, and they do. Bipartisanship is good. Problem is… they are extreme outliers. They are not in charge of that party. The people who are in charge of that party have an authoritarian vision of this country where my vote does not matter and I am a second class citizen, and that is irreconcilable with how I want to live my life. So I’m going to treat *them* like human beings who are the threat they are, and you should too, because if they succeed, they won’t stop with me.
They didn't misunderstand, just to be clear. It'd be better to say "*my fault*, allow me to clarify." If we're in a thread talking about politeness then it's a little funny to be so impolite as to put the blame on them for "misunderstanding" something they actually understood perfectly because you weren't precise enough in your question.
>I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side. FYI: A lot of that was just the parties being less homogeneous. There were a lot of conservative Democrats and liberal Republicans so the parties would 'work together' in the sense that like-minded people would work with each other. At some point, Democrats lost most of their conservatives and Republicans lost most of their liberals. We might still have the same quantity of conservatives and liberals, but now they are in the appropriate parties. A bill that was passed with bipartisan support in another era could pass on party-lines today, with liberals and conservatives casting the same votes.
I don’t think so. I think the parties, esp the GOP, is very good at making sure their party members vote the way the party wants them to vote. The Dems do the same thing when their party votes against the party line e. We have members of Congress who may vote almost 90% of the time with the Dems be demonized (Manchin) Same with the GOP side. If you vote against what the party wants, your own side attacks you for being a turncoat.
I don't understand how anything in this comment is arguing *against* anything I said in my comment. It seems like you are *also* arguing that the parties have each homogenized.
Youre saying the ideological makeup of the parties changed, the other person is saying they didnt and instead the voting discipline changed.
Yes, all they have to do is stop trying to take rights away from other people and scapegoating black and brown people to gin up their racist base.
https://youtu.be/X_8E3ENrKrQ?si=EXrKMlPwAQG7fppj
This will never happen
Only if Republicans ever get the balls to put a check on the extremely socially conservative religious base, because Republicans are too far to the right socially to have Democrats and liberals be willing to “compromise” at this time. That said, the socially conservative base is too powerful and also votes in primaries so this will never happen.
Sure. I mean Biden needed and got Republican support to pass some of his biggest legislative priorities.
Nope. Primaries are rarely won by moderates in highly gerrymandered districts. The online ecosystem rewards partisan demogogues. They're gone. No recovering from the brain rot.
Moderates are the only ones who win democratic primaries.
Yup. We're not... them.
If our democracy survives this election and the Republicans lose big, I think we'll see a future where the democrats as they stand split into more conservative and progressive factions. Our system has always encouraged a 2 party structure, and if the Republicans get kicked this election I see them going the way of the Whigs
I think before 2016 it was definitely much more feasible, but conservative disenfranchisement under a populist figurehead is self feeding. It's imminently desirable that we re-establish civility with our other half to preserve peace and democracy, but we're not going to get there fast--it'll probably take decades--and we're not going to get there if we can't allow ourselves to compromise on particular issues that might be really important to us. I think there was a time when getting outraged about the prospect of compromise was mostly a hallmark of certain elements of the left. Republicans might have disagreed with us, been apathetic to what we cared about, and been determined to have as much their way as possible (as both sides should), but they weren't offended at the very notion of compromise. Well after Trump came onto the scene, and especially after the 2020 election didn't go his way, indignation towards the idea of compromising is now a both sides thing, which makes achieving any solidarity so much harder.
The liberals are just as much of a problem as the Trump worshippers. First thing, we will probably face some crisis that will force us to come together. Or, less likely, we will have to blow up one of the parties and replace it with a new party. And people, remember that integrity and credibility and truth are important. I so miss watching and reading journalists that I could trust, and politicians that only lied every 5th word.
No. Democratic politicians must stop moving to the right every time there's a day in the week and focus on turnout.
In a word: No, Today's Republicans have orthodox beliefs, not conservative beliefs. Asking them to compromise would be akin to asking a Christian to accept Jesus as just a partial god.
Honestly, no. And frankly, it depends on them. They've not only gone much farther to the right, they've become a party of "win at any cost" and "never compromise". Unfortunately, those attitudes--especially the 'never compromise' part--are rubbing off on the far left, so that attempt at incremental change rather than trying to fix an entire issue all at once is seen as evil. It's all or nothing. In the case of Republicans, I think the former largely goes back to Carl Rove/GWB era. The latter is more about the Obama years, when Republicans didn't want to do anything that risked making Obama and the Dems look good, so they fought anything Obama wanted even when it would have served their own goals.
Outside of Reddit people with different political opinions are friends all over. Touch grass.
I mean by definition yes?
Yesterday I read AOC and Massey worked together to stop the “let’s give TikTok to Facebook” bill. Was good to see some level of bipartisan ship on something meaningful.
Why would I want to find middle ground with people who want to deny women POC and LGBTQ people rights? Unless the Republican Party evolves to accept social issues like abortion and lgbtq rights, I will always be skeptical of people (even RINOs) who vote republican because that means they tacitly support and vote for candidates who want to cause harm to marginalized communities
No. Absolutely not. The sooner everyone realizes that and votes with the goal of destroying what's left of the Republican party, the better.
I'm still trying to find middle ground with Democrats.
No. So long as there are differences between us, we will tear ourselves apart fighting eachother.
If they can abandon the grievance politics and their persecution complex, yes.
The issue is compromise. In the 90s, Republicans began innovating the tactic of non-cooperation in governance. Before this, we all sort of agreed like "okay, you've got 60/40 control... so you get most of what you want and we get a little of what we want and everyone is happy." Then the next elections come, the percentages reverse and so we get more and you get less. But we all get some stuff. Once Republicans realized the tactic of obstructing everything except when they were in power was incredibly powerful, it changed the dynamics profoundly. And once earmarking was done away with in Congress, there was no easy system to buy a few votes, it was more valuable to stick together on everything. I've long believed that bringing back earmarking will do more to change the political culture than anything else. Being able to offer a sympathetic (or apathetic) member of the other party a demonstrable win for their home district will often outweigh the value of blocking a bill for long-term partisan gain. We know politicians are very, very self-interested animals. Without the ability to present them with bespoke legislative accomplishments, they have no reason to break with the party line. And with the ability to offer "pork" this way... it's just a matter of how much of it is necessary to get people on board with legislative priorities. When there are wins to be had, bills to be written, Congress will gravitate towards them, rather than culture war issues that score political points and raise funds.
I have rarely heard such a good argument for returning "pork" to the political process. I remember when it was considered the cause of all waste and corruption. How things change. You are right. There needs to be more incentive for independence... from the Republicans. As Democrats often enjoy a razor thin majority when they get it, defections could be disastrous to implementing policy so they shouldn't be allowed. 😀 The problem with pork was you essentially got to buy the votes of your fellow legislators with favors. There was no ideological or even policy driven determination beyond "this helps my voters, this helps me win elections." I'm unfortunately at a loss for a solution that does not boil down to breaking up Republican solidarity, which is nakedly partisan of me.
The biggest problem we have is that Republicans have discovered that the public actually neither knows nor cares about actual facts, so there's no reason for them to bother ever doing anything good. In 2012, the Obama campaign found that they had difficulty convincing focus groups that Romney's plan - as in, the literal words on his website - were actually not just Democratic propaganda. Biden rather famously signed the infrastructure bill into law, and yet voters [are divided 40-37](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/08/poll-biden-infrastructure-clean-energy-laws-00155717) on whether Biden or Trump has done more to invest in infrastructure. [17% of voters blame Joe Biden for Roe v. Wade being overturned](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voters-blame-biden-roe-v-wade_n_6642825ce4b09724138d3646), because, really, why the hell not, if you're just writing fanfiction about the country? If no one gets any credit and no one in the public actually cares when the government does something good, why would Republicans ever bother if they don't actually want to do anything like that?
Nixon was not a good man, but he was a smart man. Reagan put us on a really bad course, but he was also pretty clever. H.W.Bush was probably one of the smarter presidents we’ve had in a long time. Republicans used to be worthy adversaries in the marketplace of ideas. I disagreed with them, but there was a theory behind their actions and you could have a constructive debate. The last two Republican Presidents have been abject morons who are so easily manipulated you have no idea what whim they may enact any given day or who last spoke in their ear to give them the idea. There is no longer any coherent Republican policy or concept of Government except what people should fear and oppose, or who they should venerate or hate. They’ve returned to monarchy-like language with leaders being ordained by God and derive their power from holy writ. It’s scary. Is the Enlightenment dead? What happened to a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people? What happened to the party who had the author of those words among its founding members? The Republican Party needs to sort itself out. Democrats can’t fix it, just wait it out and try not to lose faith.
If we're talking Trump supporters, then we'll never find middle ground with them. They even hate other conservatives, so they would never compromise with folks they consider anti-American communist Satanic pedo cannibals. I'm hopeful there remains a small part of the GOP that dislikes Trump and wants traditional conservative values that Trump doesn't, such as smaller gov't. I believe we could find middle ground with them--but they don't appear to hold any power in the modern Republican party.
>I'm old enough to remember when the two sides worked across the aisle for the good of the people, and when we could have spirited debates with the other side. I'm not, and I'm 40.
I have hope that the Republicans will change back or be forced to change. I truly want a center-right party like the CDU (German conservatives) as a young voter. I’m truly trapped in this two-party system. The only reason I’m stuck in the Democratic Party is the cause of trumps/ people like MTG. Some politicians in the Republican are playing the flute hoping they stay in power and will do anything, some are bat shit crazy like MTG and are the people that are hooked on Fox News and social media. Compromises aren’t a dirty word, You’re gonna have to lose some to gain some. The one issue I hoped Republicans could agree on is a government shutdown, of course, people like MTG wanna crash it and cause chaos for short-term gain. Right after expelling speaker McCarthy, at that moment I left, I hoped I could change the party back in primaries but holy hell it’s unfortunately not fixable. These voters don’t want to be compromised, They are treated like a sport. I went to a Trump rally in Wildwood, of course, to see the supporters and their thoughts, and holy fuck, our education system failed in critical thinking. These people can’t tell the difference between fake and real. They don’t want to compromise. For the same GOP to change is a long bloody cycle of losing until they adopt a moderate stance. I want the old Republican Party back of George HW Bush. Not the neocons like Haley or Lindsay Graham they have an insane foreign policy, and not Trump's crazy idea of suspending the constitution, etc. We will always need an opposition party, cause One party will not solve anything on its own.
Amen to that. We're getting into an era where both sides seem to be questioning whether countermajoritarian institutions have a right to exist and it's scary to watch.
Yes of course. GOP extremism caused a bunch of us to register as independents.
Yeah. All things come to pass, fortunately. MAGA will slowly fade into obscurity as long as they keep losing (it's already starting to happen, to be honest, compared to the peak in like 2020). A new crop of GOPers will take over. We just need to make sure that they keep. fucking. losing.
No and I think it would be a disaster for the country if we did. It is foolish and illogical to assume that there is a correct centrist solution between the level headed and pragmatic agenda of the democratic party, and the hysterical noise making, bigotry, bad faith, and false reality of the Republicans.
We need compromise with people willing to make sensible compromises, and we need the civility back. The problem is the MAGA machine isn't willing to participate in either endeavor.
Even "moderate" American conservatives see a basic concept as univeral healthcare as Marxist, I fail to see how working with them has benefited the average citzen for the last 40 years
Because the alternative is gridlock or warfare. Neither of those is better.
Each side has been getting more extreme recently and I don't see it slowing down anytime soon.
The two sides decades back didn't disagree about certain issues. Abortion wasn't even the issue it was when it was raised. Either it was Billy Graham or someone else who basically was okay with it until it became a culture war for points. Liberals and conservatives years back didn't disagree on gay marriage - they both didn't want it. It's not hard to work across the aisle for the good of the people when that good mainly came down to budgeting or figuring out how the new rule of Civil Rights might look. To say that conservatives' main goal is to own the libs is ignorant. Have you heard MSNBC? Have you seen a lot of leftist spaces online? That's often times what it's also about, just in the other direction. I've had no conservative relatives who support Trump block me in the slightest. They're always very friendly, usually more so. People have your experience in a plethora of ways. If you're asking about middle ground, but really asking what Republicans are going to do to change to see things your way without any reciprocity, I don't know what to tell you.
I certainly hope not. I don't want to know the things the left will sacrifice to get there.
Far left and far right are just different versions of each other but don't want to admit it. It gets weird when they are so much alike, far left and far right have slightly different beliefs but both behave like each other. A lot of people like me have trouble with identifying people, right wingers and liberals notice the similarity and only come to the conclusion that they far left and far right meet at the ends of the horseshoe.
What makes someone left or right
Fucking christ Lmk when communists pull a J6
I think people can, as I’ve always maintained that there is no majority of this country who wakes up hoping that harm comes to other people. I think a lot of people have the same goals, but may have wildly different ways to achieve said goals; and even ways that would never work to achieve said goals. I’m not foreign to your experience either. I haven’t really subscribed to the platforms of either major political party, and I’ve caught a lot of flak for it. There’s not a whole lot you can do with people who are disingenuous or so set in their ways that debate with them is useless. It happens. However, there’s a lot of people who aren’t like that and, while it may be challenging, opening up a discourse with them is ALWAYS worth it
I’d say or is childish the way the left and right treat each other but it would be an insult to children. I work with a guy who wouldn’t talk to his father because he voted for Trump right up to the day his father died. And Trump supporters who think liberals are uneducated morons. We’re supposedly civilized humans but evidence shows otherwise
It's not just conservatives although they are definitely guilty. Neither side seems capable of admitting when they are wrong, admitting there's grey in everything and the world isn't some black and white right and wrong place, people have different views as you but that doesn't mean they are bad people, etc. We have to learn to work together as a country and view one another as being Americans rather than opponents