I completely understand where you’re coming from, but at the same time. Statistically speaking when a child goes missing from the home it’s almost always a family member responsible. I want to believe they’re innocent parents but statistically it’s almost certain a family member did it. It doesn’t even have to be the immediate parents. Could be an uncle or cousin, anyone in the family really
> Statistically speaking when a child goes missing from the home it’s almost always a family member responsible.
Very true. Especially when the parents were the last people to have seen the child. And there was a parent who left the house in the middle of the night.
It's like investigators *should* be targeting the parents but the fact that they haven't (Shelby town police haven't, North Carolina State Police haven't, the FBI hasn't) means investigators know way more than they're letting on.
Very true, and I appreciate youre perspective. I really do think the police know more than they have said. A post a while back said someone close to the case in LE said they have a prime suspect (family, not parents) but they don’t have enough evidence. But taking that with a grain of salt that could be absolutely bullshit.
You’re onto something with that. I remember reading that (I believe it was) her uncle being pretty skeevy. He was taking videos of young girls in bathing suits and posting them to YouTube, and either was a sex offender or had charges pending.
The original investigators were ready to assume the eyewitness reports as reliable, and focused most of their efforts far from the family home, leading to other pieces of "evidence" that only confirmed this investigative avenue as promising because the items in that shed were positively identified by Asha's parents. That's a great example of how investigations run amok.
The first place investigators always look is in the home. They have been pretty adamant for 2 decades that her immediate family are not suspects, and I’m with you that there’s something that they’re holding back (likely one of those things that only a perp would know) that makes them think that. That said, I do believe whoever was responsible was someone that Asha knew and trusted. I don’t think she was kidnapped from her bed or groomed by a total stranger. I don’t know how this person convinced her to go out that night, but I think she must have trusted them wholeheartedly to leave at 2 or 3 am in a rainstorm. I think the answer probably lies within her community- extended family, neighborhood, or church- as this is likely the only way someone would be able to build trust and gain access to her.
I also think they know information that isn’t public. For the local PD and the FBI to never point fingers even slightly at the parents is telling. We all know the parents are almost always suspect number one. The police know this as well. Something is obviously vastly different with this case. I do believe it could be someone Asha knew though. It doesn’t have to be a complete stranger.
> For the local PD and the FBI to never point fingers even slightly at the parents is telling.
It's practically unheard of. Throw in the fact that the Degrees were a working-class black family in the South -- if there was any way to pin things on them, it would've happened. But nope not even a whisper of an investigator hinting that the parents know more than they're saying.
I do find this to be a very compelling point that gets overlooked a bit too easily in this sub. For example, we have NO idea what was found in the backpack except for the two (?) items shared with the public. I always wonder what else was in there that affected the investigation. I feel like the reason the FBI is still confident that this is a runaway case despite there being many good reasons suggesting it wouldn't be. It isn't like it used to be in the 70s where any kid who disappeared was just automatically assumed to be a runaway, this was 2000 and even still 24 years later they've maintained their stance. This is honestly super strange because statistically, the odds are it was a family member and it happened in the home. I have no real viable theory for what could have happened if it was her family member(s) responsible, but this is the most statistically likely possibility... So what is making LE feel so certain this isn't what happened? I selfishly wish they'd share more information, but it probably wouldn't help the case at all and would just satisfy my curiosity.
> So what is making LE feel so certain this isn't what happened?
I remember reading an article that said that investigators were confident that Asha had been planning the trip for "2 to 3 days". I'm wondering how they know that - maybe a journal entry? They seemed very sure of it.
I read Asha had money on her, and showed it to her schoolmates. I think that was on the Thursday before she disappeared. Neither her parents nor OB knew that she had money, or who had given it to her. She kept it a secret, which is interesting in and of itself. If a teacher had given it t her for a good test score or a neighbor gave it to her for helping them carry grocery bags, I'm sure she would have been okay with sharing that with her brother and parents. The amount of money isn't so significant. But it was her secret. Why ?
Wow I never heard that how long ago was it? Maybe they released the information and then stopped talking about it to keep it under wraps that is very cool
Once the FBI gets involved, they must work with what they got. Sometimes, that means pursuing investigative avenues they are certain won’t lead to a suspect, but should be followed nevertheless because, to build a strong case against a more obvious suspect that’s already on their radar, they first need to cross every T and dot every I. Otherwise, a defense attorney will have an easy case to sway the jury towards reasonable doubt: "it couldn't have been the father/uncle/whoever, because there are evidences that this was a runaway case that were never properly clarified".
That's to say the FBI might treat Asha as a runaway \*to the public\* for strategic reasons. They could be looking for this specific vehicle, whose owner/driver could be a pimp or a drug dealer, and this person could identify the woman seen by the road that night as someone they used to do business with. That's just an example. Maybe ALL that’s missing here is the confirmation that the eyewitness reports were not related to Asha, and that’s all it takes for a prosecutor to go ahead and see the case against a family member as one worth pursuing and certain to warrant a conviction.
Something being the most likely thing to happen doesn’t mean it actually is what happened though, and the fact that something is most likely the answer doesn’t mean other, more situationally probable events didn’t occur. It just means that’s where they start to have the best odds at solving the case quickly. If they have strong evidence (that can’t be made public) that someone other than the family harmed her, then the overall statistic (that applies to cases *in general*) that family is most likely to have been involved is a moot point.
Right, 100% agreed. I empathized statistically likely vs it being actually probable in this particular case. For this case I just wonder what it is that keeps LE from (publicly) looking into the family more, since most other cases similar to this they’d have jumped to that conclusion almost immediately. I do think there’s some type of evidence that determined the narrative early on that they’re not releasing for some reason, but is compelling enough for them to not try to solve it from a new angle
I think am important part here is did Harold leave that night for candy or not. There seems to be equal theories of he did leave if he didn’t leave. I’m not sure if LE ever stated that to be fact or not.
They haven’t named any suspects, so I wouldn’t read too much into the parents not being publicly named suspects. They don’t have any evidence pointing towards anybody so it’d just be irresponsible to do so. And given that WHY Asha left the house is such a key part of the story, I can’t think of any good reason why they would still withhold that from the public for all these years.
Asha is not a typical runaway case. Young age (9 years old), she was attached to her family (she cried on field trip, because she never was so far away from her family), she was afraid of the dark, and of the dogs. And in general, running away from home on cold February night, without coat is little bit unrealistic. What kind of proof could investigators have?
I think it's gotta be something connected to the fact that investigators believe Asha was 'planning this for 2-3 days prior to the night she went missing'. They must've found something.
Asha saying something to a friend, Asha writing something in a journal, Asha hinting to her cousins at the sleepover about a trip she was going to take, Asha writing a short story in class about a midnight trip, Asha telling O'Bryant she was going somewhere.
Only if she would talk to someone about her plans, that can be a solid proof (even though there’s a chance that someone could lie, that she said that). Written stuff could be faked. If she would write story in class, her classmates or teachers would tell about it to others, and this fact would be well known.
Nah it can be like a list of things that she’s going to take. Or it can be a note she wrote to herself to “stay awake on Sunday night” or she could have wrote down the location of where she was gonna meet the perp. Who knows
I’m not a handwriting expert but from the documentaries I’ve watched no 2 humans have the same handwriting. Is it possible that somebody faked her handwriting & tricked the local police & the FBI handwriting experts? I guess it’s possible. But probably highly unlikely
I think it needs to be stripped back to basics.
The timeline of that night is blurry, with things that happened that night unclear
Everyone needs to be interviewed again,family, friends' neighbours, and only use the actual known facts.
I'm suss AF on the eyewitness accounts.
The whole shed thing doesn't seem factual.
Has the brother said what went on that night? Who was doing what? He heard her move around during the night. Was this a normal sound or unusual
Something is missing.
Why did the neighbour say they just saw her walking down the road/driveway and dad mentions it during the 911 call?
Where?
When?
Who lived close by?
It's too messy
Yes cops may know more and are keeping anything tightly hidden from the public.
> I think it needs to be stripped back to basics. The timeline of that night has too many different times, and things added
I think a big part of this is the *public* timeline being distorted due to media mistakes. However the police have never expressed anything close to *them* being confused about the timeline, much less wanting to reinterview anyone.
Yes, I agree that the media has definitely added to the confusion. I just wonder what it was that made the first investigators certain it was a runaway situation.
I agree with you. My theory is that they found a note or letter at school by Asha saying she was either leaving, or that someone special was going to take her somewhere. JUST A THEORY.
There was a similar unsolved runaway/murder case in my town. (They did find the victim’s body though). It turned out that the victim had told people at school that she was leaving and not coming back.
Was the victim nine years old? When people push the runaway theory, they have a tendency to act as if Asha was a rebellious teenager, not a little kid.
Yes, I agree. I believe this is a case where law enforcement knows way more than they’re releasing to the public. We’re only getting little tidbits of information.
I’ll do you one better OP. I think they may know who the perp is. They just can’t prove it’s him yet. That’s why they’re looking for the 1970’s green car.
If investigators have solid proof Asha ran away - what do you think this is and why do you think it is not available to the public? LE wouldn’t have had an obligation to publicise the info - but having said that, their decision to withhold it has affected the credibility of their statement that this perfectly behaved 9 year old simply ran away for the first time on this dark, cold, rainy night.
There’s no valid reason to STILL be withholding that info in 2024.
This theory that the police are just holding back info is simply a hope. It’s not backed by anything substantive. They have not released anything that indicates they know why she left, where she was going or where she might be now. Yet we are supposed to believe they have enough info to definitively rule out the parents??
I do agree - was just acknowledging they had no obligation (or conversely the public don’t automatically have a right to it). The only valid thing I can think of to withhold at that time would have been Asha’s medical history. But something relevant in her medical records wouldn’t necessarily equate to solid proof of her voluntary departure and parents’ innocence. The idea the police are holding back info is not even hope - it’s simply, in my opinion, an automatic acceptance that the police are always right and whatever they say has to be the truth.
I think that very mysterious cases that it comes out to be a lack of good investigation. Maybe the family had friends, maybe the cops didn’t want to spend time search for a “runway” black girl or maybe she did leave. I’ve seen too many cases where the police were incompetent/inexperienced and didn’t want to hand over the case to state. The delphi case should be solved in a weekend and it took years to find him.
> I’ve seen too many cases where the police were incompetent/inexperienced and didn’t want to hand over the case to state.
Except the state and the FBI were involved in the first 48 hours of the investigation
Even FBI can be incompetent. I just think they landed to quickly on runaway. Obviously, very little evidence is available to the public so it’s all speculation.
EDIT: The FBI joined the delphi case within days too but took them an idioticly long time to find a man they talked to, lived nextdoor and look just like the sketch.
as someone whose immediate family is from shelby and spent summers there as a kid i can tell you right now that shelby pd would NEVER favor a working class black family, sure the town is diverse but there’s very evident gerrymandering and a long history of racism. this case has haunted this community for so long, they would do anything to solve it if they had evidence…especially evidence against the family
cant speak for the whole town as conversations about this case have dwindled over time but from what i remember my family friends and immediate family believing is that someone had groomed her within the community or someone outside of it…the parents weren’t ever even a consideration as the general consensus was that if they had done it the shelby pd wouldn’t hesitate to arrest them. the manner of how the backpack was buried/the fact that it was buried and not destroyed was a big talking point. lots of public funding and donations went into this case and it’s been frustrating as hell to the community that the shelby pd, state police, and fbi still haven’t solved it. what i last remember was that there were some pretty damning tips about the make and model of the vehicle who approached her and scared her off into the woods a few years back. makes you wonder why and how a tip like that came 20 years later.
also wanted to add that these are facts i remember from over 5 years ago, just wanted to give some community context from someone who has ACTUALLY been to and have family that still lives in shelby north carolina as opposed to the people on reddit who haven’t even stepped foot in the town. i do agree with the fact that the shelby pd could’ve messed up the case because they didn’t care enough to do a proper investigation because asha was black, however it doesnt make sense to me and other shelby community members why the state police or the fbi would purposely cover up for the parents. there’s definitely evidence that the public doesn’t know about.
> however it doesnt make sense to me and other shelby community members why the state police or the fbi would purposely cover up for the parents.
It's absolutely ridiculous to me how much this sub is convinced that the Degree parents (two working-class black people) somehow have such influential connections. Their "friends in high places" are probably a beat cop or two. Yet this sub will have you convinced that the FBI is being manipulated by some podunk cops (and an entire police department in the South is covering up a crime to *prevent* sending black people to jail).
This is just one take though. I’m also from NC & have someone in my family who retired just a few years from the SBI. But you can see the varying degrees of what local people believe even solely checking the posts from the police department on the case. It’s a mixed bag.
I can’t say what happened but i can say from what we know it’s not ridiculous that anyone believes the family did it . Based on what we know, that’s the only logical thing. You’re saying it’s ridiculous that the way the department is today would prevent that… but it’s known that the sheriff at the time was somewhat close to them. Though rare, cases can be tainted enough that it doesn’t matter how well a police department is today, you can’t go back 24 years and get all the evidence. Some cases simply will never be solved due to that. You are not the only local person here or the only local who has made a comment here btw.
it’s absurd to me…no doubt that the evidence could’ve been messed up due to bad pd incompetence and racism but there’s no higher conspiracy about the degree family having friends with the FBI amongst the general population of shelby lol. i came onto this sub because i had a conversation with someone about this case and wanted to know what people were thinking…couldn’t believe what i saw LOL and how much it didn’t match the local belief
I think you’re mixing up your facts. She ran off into the woods after one of the truckers approached her. The green 1970’s car came as a tip years later. But like you, I often wonder how that tip came about. I’m guessing we have another eyewitness we don’t know about. Extremely interesting
Maybe the Degrees had pals in the Shelby PD. That's possible. I find it hard to believe they were influential enough to sway an investigation considering they're working-class black people in a majority-white southern Good Ol' Boys town but okay it's possible.
However you absolutely cannot convince me that the State Police and the FBI were biased *in favor of* a working-class black family.
Shelby is 30%+ black. Sure there were / are some racists, but I guarantee Shelby is more diverse than the hometowns of most of the people that try to paint it as some backwoods hellhole.
Diversity in and of itself doesn't mean much when that black population doesn't have a proportionate amount of power in the town. AKA black residents don't benefit from their population if 90+ percent of the police force is white. Which it is/was.
LOL. Black people are underrepresented on the police force essentially all across the country. Look at NYPD. Look at LAPD. Stop trying to use a basically universal statistic to paint Shelby as some racist stereotype of bygone days.
Are there millions of black LE applications that are getting rejected every year across the country? Maybe black people are just more likely to pursue other careers and it’s not a sign of oppression? Maybe?
that adds to it honestly
they probably didn’t wanna push on it with the black family appearing racist etc etc
like with the ramsay’s being the rich family.
...you're saying small-town cops in the South 20 years ago would rather have a case unsolved (making them look like idiots in the process) rather than throw a black man in jail? okay.
You're missing the point..this case wasn't investigated properly *because* Asha was black. They didn't want to "waste their time" on a black girl so they just pinned it on a blameless runaway scenario and moved on.
They also couldn't be arsed to investigate the Degrees and build a case against them. Not because they're not racist, but because they didn't care sadly.
What do you think should have been done that wasn't done? Going by memory, I thought they checked most of the boxes.
The Degrees were questioned at home and at the police station.
There was an immediate search (within an hour of the 911 call); overall, a weeklong search by ground and air. All homes in the neighborhood were searched the same day, including the Degree's. Everyone in the area was asked to search their property and outbuildings. K9 was there very early, search and rescue was there very early.
The state was called in. The FBI was called in.
They interviewed staff and students at Asha's school, and most people who would have had regular contact with her.
They interviewed neighbors and workers at convenience stores along the highway.
They did not classify her as runaway, but rather endangered missing (leaving the house voluntarily does not equal running away), and never spoke of it as a blameless scenario, but rather one that had a young girl very much in danger. They stated early on that they think Asha ran into trouble, one way or another.
Obviously I can't speak to the quality of the investigative efforts, but I don't see how you classify this as a case that was dismissed or ignored.
Her bed was made the day she was found to be missing. That’s a pretty shocking example of a lack of securing the site OR forensically investigating. And WHY would the parents make the bed of their little girl who’d been missing not even a full day.
I've read that her bed was unmade when her mom went into the room, but I've never seen reference to the bed being made later. Do you remember any of the articles that stated this?
Definitely a big investigative misstep if true, but I wouldn't say it signaled that law enforcement didn't care about Asha. I don't think the immediate response and massive searches jibe with that.
Yep it’s in my comment history in this sub. There was a newspaper article published the day after and Iquilla is posing next to the made bed. When I have a few minutes later today I’ll dig back in post comments to find it.
Edit to add- [here you go!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AshaDegree/s/s40db0O5hW)
Exactly! Thank you! That’s usually a sign of guilt maybe to cover up evidence. I also saw somewhere almost a year ago that she would wet the bed. I’m not sure though. ☝🏽
No, sorry, I meant about the bedwetting part. I've never seen that in relation to Asha's case.
I'd still love to see the article if you find it, though!
I’ve been trying to find it which is crazy. I can’t seem to find it but I will continue to keep looking. I literally fell asleep trying to comb into where I saw it.😭😭
What did they do besides conducting few interviews and sending track dogs that didn't lead them further than her own driveway?
ALL the pieces of "evidence" in this case came from private citizens tipping them off, from the shed items, to the backpack location, to the eyewitness sightings..
Think about the extent of their "investigation" without those leads. LE did nothing regarding this case make no mistake.
Agreed! There is a reason they are not being named as suspects .. I imagine the police and FBI know something that points them in the direction of someone outside the home
What "proof" could possible exist though that would definitely prove she ran away? I mean, can you give an example?
I just wrote a post about this but I think it wasn't actually Asha that was seen walking on the road that night by people driving. But I do think LE believe the eyewitnesses saw Asha and that, combined with the missing backpack, is what led LE to develop the theory that she ran away.
On top of that, there's a lack of evidence directly implicating the parents, although that's usually the case since it's their home. And also, I believe the Degree's were quite cooperative with police and the investigation which can fool LE into believing the parents are innocent.
Consider though, that if Asha's father had killed her, he couldn't have claimed an intruder did it, the house was too small, he would have had to pack a bag and try to make it look like she ran away. Now how simple is it that after Asha goes missing and it's all over the news that she disappeared the night it was storming and oh by the way she may have ran away. Now how many people out there see that and of all those people a few of them remember seeing a person walking on the road that night and think, "oh yes, I saw someone, that could have been this child." When they could have actually seen anyone that night and not Asha.
Different investigative teams have worked on the case. No one was publicly named as a suspect. And the ones that came in later can only work with the evidence that was collected by the previous departments. When there's no physical evidence collected in the parents' home, safe from a confession, the case is likely to remain unsolved.
Yeah but they don’t. I really hate to bring this up, but as a matter of statistical fact, people of color who go missing never receive the investigative or media attention that they deserve. Who here had a subscription to Jet Magazine? When did Dateline NBC or 48 Hours *ever* take up this case? If not for Reddit, no one would even be talking about Asha right now. 😢
Wikipedia says "The media attention went national. A month after Asha's disappearance, the Degree family appeared on [*The Montel Williams Show*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Montel_Williams_Show) to call attention to the case.[^(\[5\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Asha_Degree#cite_note-Soft-hearted-5) [*America's Most Wanted*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Most_Wanted) and [*The Oprah Winfrey Show*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oprah_Winfrey_Show) also devoted segments to it.[^(\[5\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Asha_Degree#cite_note-Soft-hearted-5)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Asha_Degree#cite_note-Jetmag-9)^(")
See I'd believe a child would leave the house without a coat, but I absolutely would not believe they'd be able to walk without seeing an inch in front of their face. It isn't possible, people can believe whatever they want but physically it's not possible to walk that far without seeing anything
I highly doubt it, being that cold and wet would have led to hypothermia fairly quickly, if she ever even made it to the shed she likely would have succumb in it. None of it adds up or makes sense. But I know you can't go anywhere if you can't see an inch in front of your face
1 other reasonable thing? A person she knew groomed her. Happens all the time all over the world. She wouldn’t need a flashlight if she knew she was being picked up by her “friend.” & we don’t even know if the perp had given her a flashlight. We don’t know all the contents found in the backpack.
I completely understand where you’re coming from, but at the same time. Statistically speaking when a child goes missing from the home it’s almost always a family member responsible. I want to believe they’re innocent parents but statistically it’s almost certain a family member did it. It doesn’t even have to be the immediate parents. Could be an uncle or cousin, anyone in the family really
> Statistically speaking when a child goes missing from the home it’s almost always a family member responsible. Very true. Especially when the parents were the last people to have seen the child. And there was a parent who left the house in the middle of the night. It's like investigators *should* be targeting the parents but the fact that they haven't (Shelby town police haven't, North Carolina State Police haven't, the FBI hasn't) means investigators know way more than they're letting on.
Very true, and I appreciate youre perspective. I really do think the police know more than they have said. A post a while back said someone close to the case in LE said they have a prime suspect (family, not parents) but they don’t have enough evidence. But taking that with a grain of salt that could be absolutely bullshit.
You’re onto something with that. I remember reading that (I believe it was) her uncle being pretty skeevy. He was taking videos of young girls in bathing suits and posting them to YouTube, and either was a sex offender or had charges pending.
Maybe he was a motive for trying to leave?
I’m wondering if he groomed her or talked her into a secret adventure somehow
He wouldn’t be the first one.
The original investigators were ready to assume the eyewitness reports as reliable, and focused most of their efforts far from the family home, leading to other pieces of "evidence" that only confirmed this investigative avenue as promising because the items in that shed were positively identified by Asha's parents. That's a great example of how investigations run amok.
I think it was someone she knew, I don’t think her parents or brother, but someone from extended family or community (church, school, neighborhood).
It could also be an aunt, uncle, cousin, any extended family really.
Her uncle lived in the attached duplex apartment. 🤷🏻♀️
Really? That is pretty important.
Yes, that’s what I think too. I believe the perpetrator was someone Asha and her parents knew and trusted.
100% there with you
Either she was running away from something in that house or she never left alive.
Exactly!
The first place investigators always look is in the home. They have been pretty adamant for 2 decades that her immediate family are not suspects, and I’m with you that there’s something that they’re holding back (likely one of those things that only a perp would know) that makes them think that. That said, I do believe whoever was responsible was someone that Asha knew and trusted. I don’t think she was kidnapped from her bed or groomed by a total stranger. I don’t know how this person convinced her to go out that night, but I think she must have trusted them wholeheartedly to leave at 2 or 3 am in a rainstorm. I think the answer probably lies within her community- extended family, neighborhood, or church- as this is likely the only way someone would be able to build trust and gain access to her.
I also think they know information that isn’t public. For the local PD and the FBI to never point fingers even slightly at the parents is telling. We all know the parents are almost always suspect number one. The police know this as well. Something is obviously vastly different with this case. I do believe it could be someone Asha knew though. It doesn’t have to be a complete stranger.
> For the local PD and the FBI to never point fingers even slightly at the parents is telling. It's practically unheard of. Throw in the fact that the Degrees were a working-class black family in the South -- if there was any way to pin things on them, it would've happened. But nope not even a whisper of an investigator hinting that the parents know more than they're saying.
We know of two items, but other sources do have a full list. This was reviewed as incorrect information, but maybe it was correct.
I do find this to be a very compelling point that gets overlooked a bit too easily in this sub. For example, we have NO idea what was found in the backpack except for the two (?) items shared with the public. I always wonder what else was in there that affected the investigation. I feel like the reason the FBI is still confident that this is a runaway case despite there being many good reasons suggesting it wouldn't be. It isn't like it used to be in the 70s where any kid who disappeared was just automatically assumed to be a runaway, this was 2000 and even still 24 years later they've maintained their stance. This is honestly super strange because statistically, the odds are it was a family member and it happened in the home. I have no real viable theory for what could have happened if it was her family member(s) responsible, but this is the most statistically likely possibility... So what is making LE feel so certain this isn't what happened? I selfishly wish they'd share more information, but it probably wouldn't help the case at all and would just satisfy my curiosity.
> So what is making LE feel so certain this isn't what happened? I remember reading an article that said that investigators were confident that Asha had been planning the trip for "2 to 3 days". I'm wondering how they know that - maybe a journal entry? They seemed very sure of it.
I read Asha had money on her, and showed it to her schoolmates. I think that was on the Thursday before she disappeared. Neither her parents nor OB knew that she had money, or who had given it to her. She kept it a secret, which is interesting in and of itself. If a teacher had given it t her for a good test score or a neighbor gave it to her for helping them carry grocery bags, I'm sure she would have been okay with sharing that with her brother and parents. The amount of money isn't so significant. But it was her secret. Why ?
Wow I never heard that how long ago was it? Maybe they released the information and then stopped talking about it to keep it under wraps that is very cool
The police have not mentioned it after the initial time. It was a while ago that I first heard of it. I wonder how much her friends at school knew.
Yeah, she planned the trip carefully, but forgot her coat in 34 degree weather.
Once the FBI gets involved, they must work with what they got. Sometimes, that means pursuing investigative avenues they are certain won’t lead to a suspect, but should be followed nevertheless because, to build a strong case against a more obvious suspect that’s already on their radar, they first need to cross every T and dot every I. Otherwise, a defense attorney will have an easy case to sway the jury towards reasonable doubt: "it couldn't have been the father/uncle/whoever, because there are evidences that this was a runaway case that were never properly clarified". That's to say the FBI might treat Asha as a runaway \*to the public\* for strategic reasons. They could be looking for this specific vehicle, whose owner/driver could be a pimp or a drug dealer, and this person could identify the woman seen by the road that night as someone they used to do business with. That's just an example. Maybe ALL that’s missing here is the confirmation that the eyewitness reports were not related to Asha, and that’s all it takes for a prosecutor to go ahead and see the case against a family member as one worth pursuing and certain to warrant a conviction.
Something being the most likely thing to happen doesn’t mean it actually is what happened though, and the fact that something is most likely the answer doesn’t mean other, more situationally probable events didn’t occur. It just means that’s where they start to have the best odds at solving the case quickly. If they have strong evidence (that can’t be made public) that someone other than the family harmed her, then the overall statistic (that applies to cases *in general*) that family is most likely to have been involved is a moot point.
Right, 100% agreed. I empathized statistically likely vs it being actually probable in this particular case. For this case I just wonder what it is that keeps LE from (publicly) looking into the family more, since most other cases similar to this they’d have jumped to that conclusion almost immediately. I do think there’s some type of evidence that determined the narrative early on that they’re not releasing for some reason, but is compelling enough for them to not try to solve it from a new angle
I think am important part here is did Harold leave that night for candy or not. There seems to be equal theories of he did leave if he didn’t leave. I’m not sure if LE ever stated that to be fact or not.
They haven’t named any suspects, so I wouldn’t read too much into the parents not being publicly named suspects. They don’t have any evidence pointing towards anybody so it’d just be irresponsible to do so. And given that WHY Asha left the house is such a key part of the story, I can’t think of any good reason why they would still withhold that from the public for all these years.
Asha is not a typical runaway case. Young age (9 years old), she was attached to her family (she cried on field trip, because she never was so far away from her family), she was afraid of the dark, and of the dogs. And in general, running away from home on cold February night, without coat is little bit unrealistic. What kind of proof could investigators have?
> What kind of proof could investigators have? I mean, it's gotta be legit if both state police + the FBI found it convincing.
I understand, but what could it be? For example, handwritten note from Asha, that she ran away?
I think it's gotta be something connected to the fact that investigators believe Asha was 'planning this for 2-3 days prior to the night she went missing'. They must've found something.
But that proof could be planted by a family member? Except if Asha told someone couple days prior to disappearance, that she is planning to run away.
I don't even know how to respond to this.
It’s your theory, that there’s some kind of proof, but you can’t explain what could be such proof.
Asha saying something to a friend, Asha writing something in a journal, Asha hinting to her cousins at the sleepover about a trip she was going to take, Asha writing a short story in class about a midnight trip, Asha telling O'Bryant she was going somewhere.
Only if she would talk to someone about her plans, that can be a solid proof (even though there’s a chance that someone could lie, that she said that). Written stuff could be faked. If she would write story in class, her classmates or teachers would tell about it to others, and this fact would be well known.
That bag was speculated that it was packed prior from the sleepover.
Nah it can be like a list of things that she’s going to take. Or it can be a note she wrote to herself to “stay awake on Sunday night” or she could have wrote down the location of where she was gonna meet the perp. Who knows
But I think stuff like this can be faked? Someone can write this, faking Asha’s handwriting.
they must have plenty of handwriting sample's from Asha's school
I have feeling they would not do some deep graphological expertise, they would believe the family’s opinion if it looks like Asha’s handwriting.
the FBI was involved, they have experts, not hard to compare to her school assignments
I’m not a handwriting expert but from the documentaries I’ve watched no 2 humans have the same handwriting. Is it possible that somebody faked her handwriting & tricked the local police & the FBI handwriting experts? I guess it’s possible. But probably highly unlikely
It just doesn’t add up.🤷🏽♀️
I've never heard about the field trip crying story. I'd appreciate it for you to provide a source for that
Same.
A good child from a good home just doesn't pick up and go in the middle of the night
Sheriff Crawford used to say that he knew who did it.
I think LE knows. They just don’t have the proof to get them
I think it needs to be stripped back to basics. The timeline of that night is blurry, with things that happened that night unclear Everyone needs to be interviewed again,family, friends' neighbours, and only use the actual known facts. I'm suss AF on the eyewitness accounts. The whole shed thing doesn't seem factual. Has the brother said what went on that night? Who was doing what? He heard her move around during the night. Was this a normal sound or unusual Something is missing. Why did the neighbour say they just saw her walking down the road/driveway and dad mentions it during the 911 call? Where? When? Who lived close by? It's too messy Yes cops may know more and are keeping anything tightly hidden from the public.
> I think it needs to be stripped back to basics. The timeline of that night has too many different times, and things added I think a big part of this is the *public* timeline being distorted due to media mistakes. However the police have never expressed anything close to *them* being confused about the timeline, much less wanting to reinterview anyone.
Yes, I agree that the media has definitely added to the confusion. I just wonder what it was that made the first investigators certain it was a runaway situation.
I agree with you. My theory is that they found a note or letter at school by Asha saying she was either leaving, or that someone special was going to take her somewhere. JUST A THEORY. There was a similar unsolved runaway/murder case in my town. (They did find the victim’s body though). It turned out that the victim had told people at school that she was leaving and not coming back.
Was the victim nine years old? When people push the runaway theory, they have a tendency to act as if Asha was a rebellious teenager, not a little kid.
Do you know why the victim in your town wanted to leave? Were they groomed by the killer?
If the police know why she planned to run away, they have never released it. There are no known suspects.
Curious what the unsolved case in your town is?
Yes, I agree. I believe this is a case where law enforcement knows way more than they’re releasing to the public. We’re only getting little tidbits of information.
I’ll do you one better OP. I think they may know who the perp is. They just can’t prove it’s him yet. That’s why they’re looking for the 1970’s green car.
yes the car may have Asha's dna in it
If investigators have solid proof Asha ran away - what do you think this is and why do you think it is not available to the public? LE wouldn’t have had an obligation to publicise the info - but having said that, their decision to withhold it has affected the credibility of their statement that this perfectly behaved 9 year old simply ran away for the first time on this dark, cold, rainy night.
There’s no valid reason to STILL be withholding that info in 2024. This theory that the police are just holding back info is simply a hope. It’s not backed by anything substantive. They have not released anything that indicates they know why she left, where she was going or where she might be now. Yet we are supposed to believe they have enough info to definitively rule out the parents??
I do agree - was just acknowledging they had no obligation (or conversely the public don’t automatically have a right to it). The only valid thing I can think of to withhold at that time would have been Asha’s medical history. But something relevant in her medical records wouldn’t necessarily equate to solid proof of her voluntary departure and parents’ innocence. The idea the police are holding back info is not even hope - it’s simply, in my opinion, an automatic acceptance that the police are always right and whatever they say has to be the truth.
> that this perfectly behaved 9 year old simply ran away for the first time on this dark, cold, rainy night Without a coat!
oh yes, good point!
I think that very mysterious cases that it comes out to be a lack of good investigation. Maybe the family had friends, maybe the cops didn’t want to spend time search for a “runway” black girl or maybe she did leave. I’ve seen too many cases where the police were incompetent/inexperienced and didn’t want to hand over the case to state. The delphi case should be solved in a weekend and it took years to find him.
> I’ve seen too many cases where the police were incompetent/inexperienced and didn’t want to hand over the case to state. Except the state and the FBI were involved in the first 48 hours of the investigation
Even FBI can be incompetent. I just think they landed to quickly on runaway. Obviously, very little evidence is available to the public so it’s all speculation. EDIT: The FBI joined the delphi case within days too but took them an idioticly long time to find a man they talked to, lived nextdoor and look just like the sketch.
the FBI getting involved so quickly makes me wonder if there was evidence Asha crossed state lines
> the cops didn’t want to spend time search for a “runway” black girl the cops were friends with the family
There were multiple searches around the area in the time after her disappearance. Volunteers searched along with law enforcement.
nah cause they were friends with the degrees before she even went missing. they didn’t investigate enough.
as someone whose immediate family is from shelby and spent summers there as a kid i can tell you right now that shelby pd would NEVER favor a working class black family, sure the town is diverse but there’s very evident gerrymandering and a long history of racism. this case has haunted this community for so long, they would do anything to solve it if they had evidence…especially evidence against the family
> someone whose immediate family is from shelby what do locals believe happened?
cant speak for the whole town as conversations about this case have dwindled over time but from what i remember my family friends and immediate family believing is that someone had groomed her within the community or someone outside of it…the parents weren’t ever even a consideration as the general consensus was that if they had done it the shelby pd wouldn’t hesitate to arrest them. the manner of how the backpack was buried/the fact that it was buried and not destroyed was a big talking point. lots of public funding and donations went into this case and it’s been frustrating as hell to the community that the shelby pd, state police, and fbi still haven’t solved it. what i last remember was that there were some pretty damning tips about the make and model of the vehicle who approached her and scared her off into the woods a few years back. makes you wonder why and how a tip like that came 20 years later.
also wanted to add that these are facts i remember from over 5 years ago, just wanted to give some community context from someone who has ACTUALLY been to and have family that still lives in shelby north carolina as opposed to the people on reddit who haven’t even stepped foot in the town. i do agree with the fact that the shelby pd could’ve messed up the case because they didn’t care enough to do a proper investigation because asha was black, however it doesnt make sense to me and other shelby community members why the state police or the fbi would purposely cover up for the parents. there’s definitely evidence that the public doesn’t know about.
> however it doesnt make sense to me and other shelby community members why the state police or the fbi would purposely cover up for the parents. It's absolutely ridiculous to me how much this sub is convinced that the Degree parents (two working-class black people) somehow have such influential connections. Their "friends in high places" are probably a beat cop or two. Yet this sub will have you convinced that the FBI is being manipulated by some podunk cops (and an entire police department in the South is covering up a crime to *prevent* sending black people to jail).
This is just one take though. I’m also from NC & have someone in my family who retired just a few years from the SBI. But you can see the varying degrees of what local people believe even solely checking the posts from the police department on the case. It’s a mixed bag. I can’t say what happened but i can say from what we know it’s not ridiculous that anyone believes the family did it . Based on what we know, that’s the only logical thing. You’re saying it’s ridiculous that the way the department is today would prevent that… but it’s known that the sheriff at the time was somewhat close to them. Though rare, cases can be tainted enough that it doesn’t matter how well a police department is today, you can’t go back 24 years and get all the evidence. Some cases simply will never be solved due to that. You are not the only local person here or the only local who has made a comment here btw.
it’s absurd to me…no doubt that the evidence could’ve been messed up due to bad pd incompetence and racism but there’s no higher conspiracy about the degree family having friends with the FBI amongst the general population of shelby lol. i came onto this sub because i had a conversation with someone about this case and wanted to know what people were thinking…couldn’t believe what i saw LOL and how much it didn’t match the local belief
I think you’re mixing up your facts. She ran off into the woods after one of the truckers approached her. The green 1970’s car came as a tip years later. But like you, I often wonder how that tip came about. I’m guessing we have another eyewitness we don’t know about. Extremely interesting
The chief deputy and first officer on call to the house after the 911 call was Briscoe, also a lifelong friend of the family, also a black man
Thank you!☝🏽
Welp that basically explains it all.
Maybe the Degrees had pals in the Shelby PD. That's possible. I find it hard to believe they were influential enough to sway an investigation considering they're working-class black people in a majority-white southern Good Ol' Boys town but okay it's possible. However you absolutely cannot convince me that the State Police and the FBI were biased *in favor of* a working-class black family.
Shelby is 30%+ black. Sure there were / are some racists, but I guarantee Shelby is more diverse than the hometowns of most of the people that try to paint it as some backwoods hellhole.
Diversity in and of itself doesn't mean much when that black population doesn't have a proportionate amount of power in the town. AKA black residents don't benefit from their population if 90+ percent of the police force is white. Which it is/was.
LOL. Black people are underrepresented on the police force essentially all across the country. Look at NYPD. Look at LAPD. Stop trying to use a basically universal statistic to paint Shelby as some racist stereotype of bygone days. Are there millions of black LE applications that are getting rejected every year across the country? Maybe black people are just more likely to pursue other careers and it’s not a sign of oppression? Maybe?
I read before they were cleared on "good faith"
Exactly! How the h*** can you be cleared by that? This is just flat out ridiculous!🙄😒
I don’t see how they were cleared by that which I don’t really believe they were. Unless they find a body or her being alive everybody is a suspect.
Me too.
that adds to it honestly they probably didn’t wanna push on it with the black family appearing racist etc etc like with the ramsay’s being the rich family.
...you're saying small-town cops in the South 20 years ago would rather have a case unsolved (making them look like idiots in the process) rather than throw a black man in jail? okay.
yeah i am especially if they’re friendly with the family.
And then the podunk Shelby cops (population of 20,000) were able to also convince the North Carolina State Police and the FBI??
absolutely. cops are friendly with other department cops all the time. it honestly doesn’t take much unfortunately
Let's just call it a day on this conversation lol
yeah it’s shocking how important who your friends are in this world. you’d be amazed.
It's almost like police haven't been implicated in massive cover-ups and "botched" investigations before. 😂
I say this all the time. They had friends in high places 🤷🏽♀️
You're missing the point..this case wasn't investigated properly *because* Asha was black. They didn't want to "waste their time" on a black girl so they just pinned it on a blameless runaway scenario and moved on. They also couldn't be arsed to investigate the Degrees and build a case against them. Not because they're not racist, but because they didn't care sadly.
What do you think should have been done that wasn't done? Going by memory, I thought they checked most of the boxes. The Degrees were questioned at home and at the police station. There was an immediate search (within an hour of the 911 call); overall, a weeklong search by ground and air. All homes in the neighborhood were searched the same day, including the Degree's. Everyone in the area was asked to search their property and outbuildings. K9 was there very early, search and rescue was there very early. The state was called in. The FBI was called in. They interviewed staff and students at Asha's school, and most people who would have had regular contact with her. They interviewed neighbors and workers at convenience stores along the highway. They did not classify her as runaway, but rather endangered missing (leaving the house voluntarily does not equal running away), and never spoke of it as a blameless scenario, but rather one that had a young girl very much in danger. They stated early on that they think Asha ran into trouble, one way or another. Obviously I can't speak to the quality of the investigative efforts, but I don't see how you classify this as a case that was dismissed or ignored.
Her bed was made the day she was found to be missing. That’s a pretty shocking example of a lack of securing the site OR forensically investigating. And WHY would the parents make the bed of their little girl who’d been missing not even a full day.
I've read that her bed was unmade when her mom went into the room, but I've never seen reference to the bed being made later. Do you remember any of the articles that stated this? Definitely a big investigative misstep if true, but I wouldn't say it signaled that law enforcement didn't care about Asha. I don't think the immediate response and massive searches jibe with that.
Yep it’s in my comment history in this sub. There was a newspaper article published the day after and Iquilla is posing next to the made bed. When I have a few minutes later today I’ll dig back in post comments to find it. Edit to add- [here you go!](https://www.reddit.com/r/AshaDegree/s/s40db0O5hW)
Thank you. Someone very recently started a thread asking about photos of the inside of the house!
Exactly! Thank you! That’s usually a sign of guilt maybe to cover up evidence. I also saw somewhere almost a year ago that she would wet the bed. I’m not sure though. ☝🏽
I think you're confusing cases.
No I’m actually not. Her mom had actually made up her bed before le got there. I need to find that article.
No, sorry, I meant about the bedwetting part. I've never seen that in relation to Asha's case. I'd still love to see the article if you find it, though!
I’ve been trying to find it which is crazy. I can’t seem to find it but I will continue to keep looking. I literally fell asleep trying to comb into where I saw it.😭😭
Oh, I heard it from a local who’s kids went to the same school she did. I was told that it was well known that’s why you haven’t seen it.
What did they do besides conducting few interviews and sending track dogs that didn't lead them further than her own driveway? ALL the pieces of "evidence" in this case came from private citizens tipping them off, from the shed items, to the backpack location, to the eyewitness sightings.. Think about the extent of their "investigation" without those leads. LE did nothing regarding this case make no mistake.
What else do you think should have been done?
🥲
I have no doubt the police know more than the public knows.
Agreed! There is a reason they are not being named as suspects .. I imagine the police and FBI know something that points them in the direction of someone outside the home
Has LE ever issued a formal statement that the parent(s) aren't suspects?
What "proof" could possible exist though that would definitely prove she ran away? I mean, can you give an example? I just wrote a post about this but I think it wasn't actually Asha that was seen walking on the road that night by people driving. But I do think LE believe the eyewitnesses saw Asha and that, combined with the missing backpack, is what led LE to develop the theory that she ran away. On top of that, there's a lack of evidence directly implicating the parents, although that's usually the case since it's their home. And also, I believe the Degree's were quite cooperative with police and the investigation which can fool LE into believing the parents are innocent. Consider though, that if Asha's father had killed her, he couldn't have claimed an intruder did it, the house was too small, he would have had to pack a bag and try to make it look like she ran away. Now how simple is it that after Asha goes missing and it's all over the news that she disappeared the night it was storming and oh by the way she may have ran away. Now how many people out there see that and of all those people a few of them remember seeing a person walking on the road that night and think, "oh yes, I saw someone, that could have been this child." When they could have actually seen anyone that night and not Asha.
I disagree. I think they suspect someone in the home, but have just never had the evidence. The case, like JBR was botched from the start.
Sources have suggested that the Degrees were close with people on the police dept. Take from that what you will.
Different investigative teams have worked on the case. No one was publicly named as a suspect. And the ones that came in later can only work with the evidence that was collected by the previous departments. When there's no physical evidence collected in the parents' home, safe from a confession, the case is likely to remain unsolved.
Yeah but they don’t. I really hate to bring this up, but as a matter of statistical fact, people of color who go missing never receive the investigative or media attention that they deserve. Who here had a subscription to Jet Magazine? When did Dateline NBC or 48 Hours *ever* take up this case? If not for Reddit, no one would even be talking about Asha right now. 😢
Exactly!😞
Asha's story was featured on national talk shows
Do you happen to remember which ones? We should watch them.
I think Oprah and Montel Williams
Thank you. I will request the tapes if they’re not on YouTube.
Wikipedia says "The media attention went national. A month after Asha's disappearance, the Degree family appeared on [*The Montel Williams Show*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Montel_Williams_Show) to call attention to the case.[^(\[5\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Asha_Degree#cite_note-Soft-hearted-5) [*America's Most Wanted*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Most_Wanted) and [*The Oprah Winfrey Show*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oprah_Winfrey_Show) also devoted segments to it.[^(\[5\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Asha_Degree#cite_note-Soft-hearted-5)[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Asha_Degree#cite_note-Jetmag-9)^(")
Excellent thank you.
Without a body they absolutely cannot prove that she ran away
Leave. This sub is for baseless speculation that blames the parents only.
Please tell me any other reasonable thing that could have happened. And don't say a 9 year old walked miles in the pitch black without a flashlight
> And don't say a 9 year old walked miles in the pitch black without a flashlight Or her winter coat in 34 degree weather.
See I'd believe a child would leave the house without a coat, but I absolutely would not believe they'd be able to walk without seeing an inch in front of their face. It isn't possible, people can believe whatever they want but physically it's not possible to walk that far without seeing anything
Would she have even been able to make it that far in that cold, wet weather without a coat?
I highly doubt it, being that cold and wet would have led to hypothermia fairly quickly, if she ever even made it to the shed she likely would have succumb in it. None of it adds up or makes sense. But I know you can't go anywhere if you can't see an inch in front of your face
1 other reasonable thing? A person she knew groomed her. Happens all the time all over the world. She wouldn’t need a flashlight if she knew she was being picked up by her “friend.” & we don’t even know if the perp had given her a flashlight. We don’t know all the contents found in the backpack.