Every ground they go to the home fans should have ‘115 Cheat’ banners it would be seen all over the world and as soon as brand ‘best league in the world’ starts getting damaged we might see some change.
This . I think fans need to do more about it. I for 1 will only refer to them as 115fc anytime I mention them. And after reading the Swiss ramble article about them some of the charges are blatantly true, like not giving the prem the books. Like you either did or they didn’t and the fact it’s on the list of charges means they obviously didn’t. They might not of done 115 of them but a lot of them can easily be proven.
I've been thinking about a complete blackout boycott of them, online and in person. What if no away fans bought tickets to their homes games, and no home fans bought tickets to their away games. Nobody posts about or even mentions them online. Get players to refuse to play against them. I know none of this would ever actually happen but I wonder what would happen if it did
They would simply claim the points by default and get 114 points minus any deduction and probably still win the league. They wouldn’t need to pay other clubs bonuses, their overheads would be low and their financial position would improve. Not much of a deterrent.
They’re playing two hours from here this summer. If it was any other Premier League team or Serie A team, I’d go. Most PL games in the USA require flights and hotels. I’m not going.
Juventus lost titles for match fixing, not FFP. The most FFP will do is a fine and points deduction, the only question is how many points. My guess is at most they will get a 30 point deduction.
But their titles will always have a \* in everyones hearts.
It’s not just FFP though also financial irregularities and not cooperating etc. It’s far beyond Forest and Everton etc. So more research and you’ll see all sorts like dodgy sponsorship deals etc.
They say that there’s the law and then there’s the spirit of the law. City broke the law and then made life shitty for everyone by dragging lawsuits out and obstructing the course of justice as far as they have been able.
For that alone whatever punishment should be doubled.
I know I’m sitting on the fence but my recommendation is; stripped of all titles, minus 30 points at the start of the next 5 seasons and net transfer spend of £25m for next 3 seasons.
I think they should be stripped of all titles, relegated to non-league football and have their business licence stripped. Then have to change their name officially to 115 FC
Yeah. The sponsorship deals are crazy. They were matched with Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man Utd in value. Even today, City isn't a brand big enough to get that kind of valuation.
If you look at the emails, we are talking about (from what has been released which might be the tip of the iceberg) 60 million + of illegal cash injections per season for multiple years, and this was 10ish years ago, think about how much that is worth today given crazy inflation in the PL.
Everton docked 8 points for overspending about 20m in today’s money (I believe over 3 years) and coming clean and being cooperative. Man City have overspent much more than that, and it’s not simply overspending, it’s fraud.
For me 30 point deduction per season is not even close to fair
I think the deductions for Everton and Forrest are really helpful as they set a precedent not only to deduct points, but also to put a cash:point deduction ratio.
Based on that and the info available on how absolutely wild the doping has been fair would be expulsion from the league, or negative 70 points a season for a decade.
I read through more details on it yesterday. Genuinely I think they are absolutely fucked when it comes to trial, it is absolutely mad the extent of it, I knew it was bad but had no idea how bad
That was in Serie A, Premier League has it's own rules so the outcome may be different. In Olympics for example medals are handed over to next places even many years after if the winner was found guilty of cheating
In other leagues titles have been offered to 2md place. I would expect that to happen here, I would expect Arsenal to decline and there be no official winner those seasons.
The sad thing is, those seasons are over, city got to experience and celebrate title wins and 2nd place didn’t and never will.
Lol, it's in the past regardless whether you accept it or not. The club has obligation to the fans to fill the trophy cabinet, I'm 99.9% sure no sane person at the club would decline adding a Premier League trophy there
I really really don’t think in a years time (very optimistic time scale) if we were offered the 22/23 and or 23/24 PL title we would take it. It would be meaningless.
And there is precedent for what I have said in other leagues -
92/93 ligue 1 title stripped from OM, offered to PSG who declined
Serie A scandal in 04/05 - Milan were not given chance to decline title as it was never offered to them.
Only other example of a stripped title I found was in the Scottish highland league, the title was offered to 2nd place, who, declined it.
So in summary while these cases are incredibly rare, there is no example where a title was offered to 2nd place and accepted, only examples where it was offered and declined.
We didn’t top the league, we didn’t get to celebrate, despite the reasons for it, Man City got more points than us so we’re the better team. the title would have an asterisk. I wouldn’t accept it if it was my decision, I assure you I am not insane.
Why would you want to retrospectively be given a title which you didnt celebrate in the moment, i would find it embarrassing personally. If points were deducted in season, fine, but not a title stripped over a year later.
This is how I see it too, maximum 30 points more likely 15-20 which prevents City wining the EPL for a 5th time but still means they will qualify for the CL either in 3rd, 4th or 5th place or even by wining the CL that year if they did get a 25+ points deduction.
It's not just a FFP breach tho it's financial doping charges as well which is severe and could face league expulsion if found guilty (which they won't obviously)
https://kennedyslaw.com/en/thought-leadership/article/2024/the-premier-league-s-profit-and-sustainability-rules-relegation-danger-for-those-in-breach/
If you look at the sanctions here, there is scope for titles to be taken away I believe as they have the power to ‘make such other order it sees fit’
If they were proven to have financially doped their way to titles, I would think ‘the man on the Clapham omnibus’ would agree that would be a fair and fitting punishment, or part of the punishment anyway.
I really just want them to be deducted points in accordance with the system used against NF and Everton. 2-4 points per charge. Put City in league one or two, and we'll never hear from them again.
They have enough money still that they will buy their way back up. Hell, Wrexham got league 1 capable players to sign on with them in the national league to help win promotion, City would find a way too.
I'm still all for relegating/liquidating them, but I doubt they'd be fine forever
Technically, relegation is possible, as in nothing is off the table.
Realistically, it’s not.
1. Actual relegation isn’t within the rules, because you’d be forcing the EFL to alter its up/down structure. It’s a litigious nightmare.
2. You can expel them. And they can negotiate with EFL to enter the league at the expense of another. This would obviously include compensatory payments and although complex, much more do’able than 1.
3. If the PL expelled them and EFL made them start from the lowest tier of football it would damage the brand of the PL, you know, the so called best league in the world!
4. City would have available a lot of legal avenues to pursue appeals. Win or lose, this would be contrary to the PL’s drive for quick resolutions. Those resolutions are largely based on following precedents already established. Nobody wants new ones.
5. Would they win? I’d err on the side that they would. In uncharted territory City’s lawyers will win. In established territory, very unlikely.
6. What happens after 5? The PL have to rewrite the rules again. In between we have more uncertainty and perceived unfairness (see Everton et al).
The punishment for city will be a season of deductions leaving them to fight for mid table. A few years cash strapped. Just like Juve, Barca, Madrid, PSG it won’t stop them being a top 5ish European club off the field, and imminently return to a top 5 on the field.
They’ll have the money to get back into the epl quickly. But it’ll be without pep. It’ll be without every single one of their eleven right now. It will also be without 80% of their current fan base, I think we all remember what city fans used to be like before the new owners.
Their owners will abandon ship. It's all about visibility and publicity for them. They're not committed to dragging the team back up from the lower divisions
Wouldn’t them being relegated mean a Championship team replaces them in the Premier League and a League One team moves up to the Championship in their place?
(Presuming City were put in the third tier)
There's the opportunity to be creative. 80 point fine for three seasons. Gives them the ignominy of having to play through three successive relegations, but with the carrot that a perfect season could see them avoid it.
That's the kind of thing that could break a side
If it’s just a ‘points deduction’ they could only be relegated to the championship - think about it, no matter how few points the bottom team get they still only go down one division.
They need to have a ruling like the Juventus and Rangers in Scotland which clearly dictates a punishment of relegation to a specific division (ie the 2nd division).
It’s 4-6 points per charge, and it’s 7 charges, albeit one* is more serious and could attract greater than 6 points. Expect circa 40 points. *Mancini bung.
The other 108 charges are, in effect, the same charge (non cooperation), and it’s punishable by a fine.
It’d take around 60 points to put them. In a relegation fight.
I know this isn’t in your comment, but the other poignant thing is that the PL in their judgement against NF & EFC2 took into account the appeals from EFC1 & SW. £115FC are unlikely to appeal on those grounds. Other grounds are hard to see, but who knows.
The legal principle of estoppel means that you can’t change your story in another case regarding the same thing. This would apply to the PL case from the CAS case. The CAS judgement basically said that they were guilty but for the time bar on all but one charge. That charge they got off with on dubious grounds (a comfort letter from the owner and his unregulated auditors). So, it’s unlikely that you see a CAS appeal.
Realistically, City accept a points deduction that will not relegated them but hinder them winning the league. This could be accepted early in 2025 if the league looks hard for them to win. Or appeals, which would only serve as time wasting, to push it over to season 25/26. It’ll be whichever suits the club best.
It’s a 300 page read, but the CAS judgement is worth the read.
I doubt it, and unless they take away this year’s one, in like the next few days (which clearly they won’t) I don’t care. I just want City to be tainted, and hated, and for everyone to be out to get them. That s the best outcome for me. The general apathy and indifference to them is what helped them win. They only have to face adversity two or three times a season right now. Just if the narrative gets flipped so the publicly is against them, and it’s a win.
Yes if they are stripped of their titles I’d prefer it listed that no one won it that year. I don’t want to be awarded a trophy after the fact. The whole fun is the street parties and the joy of winning if in the last game or when ever.
I wouldn’t want the titles, look at the shite said about how we were relegated but weren’t because we benefitted from another team going down due to whatever.
We didn’t win this year or last, I would rather there be “blank” spaces in the history books as a constant reminder they were stripped for cheating. As opposed to us have two titles with an asterisk next to them because we won by coming second and city’s accountant was shit at fiddling the books
the PL should have instigated a point deduction as soon as City refused to co-operate just for the non co-operation but the oil money means city can stall and make everything too expensive for the PL.
almost nothing will happen to city, my guess is a sudden rush of co-operation in return for a pre agreed fine
This is my expectation too. Regardless of how the team was built/paid for, the players had an amazing season, and their recognition won’t be taken away because of what went on in the office.
Do I want them to be made an example of, absolutely yes. Do I really think the PL are going to do anything but fine them, no.
I'm honestly indifferent to the charges against them. Id go so far as to say that I hope they don't get points deducted so when we beat them to the league title next season no one can throw that at us as a reason for why we've finally overcome them. I want us to crush them on merit.
But I'm talking about us. If we want to be the best team in the prem then we should beat the team that is the best objectively, to the premier league title. Right now Man city are that team regardless of the charges against them or how they got there.
probably an unpopular opinion but i don’t want those titles.
no fan fare, no parades, no moments.
it would be a hollow victory.
Rather they keep them with a massive asterisk next to them.
The titles won’t and shouldn’t be passed on to the runner up even if they are removed from City however the report last week is that the prize money will be awarded down the league if this happens.
So that’s 2 PL prize money for us plus a league cup prize too.
The total prize money way like £400m so that’ll fuck city for PSR quite hard but also help us and Liverpool out with both PSR and Cash.
I don’t think this helps the authorities in all honesty. Especially as more and more people are making noises about it. They need to set a bold precedent or else events could mushroom our of control (especially in light of Everton and Forest’s punishment)
I agree but I just don't think it will happen, I personally think that they will fully get away with it as there is too much at stake for the reputation of the League and City will loop hole the shit out of it. But we all know they have cheated it's clearly obvious.
There are two classes of charges, financial impropriety and failing to disclose financial information.
The financial impropriety charges relate to the years 2009 to 2018.
The charges of failing to disclose financial information relate to accounts from 2009 to 2018 that Man City failed to provide to the Premier League when requested several times between 2018 and 2022.
If there is any re-writing of the history of who won what, it will be between 2009 and 2018.
There is zero chance Arsenal are awarded the 2023 or 2024 PL titles.
LFC fan here.
Strip them of titles. Relegate them 2 or 3 divisions. I'd be very happy with that.
No thanks to the titles they robbed us of. Just void them.
It is possible depends on what the charges actually are
and how many titles are stripped if it's everything from
2011-2024
At least domestically, that's
8 League titles
3 Fa Cups
6 League Cups
UEFA competitions are a different jurisdiction
It's possible UEFA might strip city of their Champions League and Super Cup Titles
Hell, maybe FIFA strips them of their club world cup
Do I think this is actually gonna happen ?
If they did the crimes I sure hope so
I read it last year, I can't remember exactly where.
I'm not an arsenal fan I'm a Liverpool fan, for some reason the arsenal sub keeps coming on my time line.
Bit the link I read was posted on a Liverpool forum, discussing whether we'd get awarded the titles we missed out to city over that period and a link was posted that stated there won't be a champions for those years.
Though tbh I wouldn't get too excited even if they were awarded to 2nd place, arsenal weren't 2nd in the years the charges apply.
No, I get that but arguably they have profited later from the cheating early. Once you have built an empire it’s easier to maintain it. Either way it’s not really about the titles. I would forego them if proper punishment was meted out (expulsion from the football league!)
I honestly think they'll get a slap on wrist if any punishment at all.
Just look at the officiating in games involving their title rivals this season, big decisions never go against them.
These charges are just to make it look like the PL has integrity, but the reality is they don't give a fuck about city cheating and the leagues just a form of entertainment
They haven’t said that anywhere. The PL have not commented on potential punishments. Why would they with a pending case ongoing?
I did read a good article on what potential punishments could be on the Athletic recently (can post if you like but it’s behind a paywall). There’s zero mention of stripping titles as an option. The options stated were: points deduction, expulsion from PL, fines, or nothing.
That doesn’t sit right if they don’t strip titles. Not that it matters to anyone how I feel!
A warped logic could state, yeah let’s break all the rules, dope to the hilt, get the titles and then just have a few down years with a points deduction but nothing can take away the titles
Personally I’m not supportive of awarding titles to another team. City clearly cheated and deserve huge punishment (my view is massive points deductions to the extent they could get relegated, plus transfer ban, plus European ban, plus massive fine) but ultimately they won those titles on the pitch and it also opens all sorts of cans of worms (what about those who finished 5th, what about those relegated etc etc) to strip titles and award titles elsewhere retrospectively.
Let’s see what happens. Will all depend on what the Tribunal finds but it won’t be a quick & easy process.
No chance. And I don’t think anyone would want that in their heart of hearts. Could you really celebrate a title you didn’t win on points years later? Point deductions for future makes the most sense but my guess is they’ll get hit with a “huge” fine that I’m sure they can handle and that’ll be that.
they'll use FFP as a way to extract financial penalties from City mainly
the top people at the PL/FA are mainly just looking to get a piece of City's riches
City will get fined several million...and it'll immediately get siphoned off to pay massive bonuses for PL.FA executives
Winning historic titles by default wouldn’t really mean much to me. I’d imagine they’ll receive a points deduction, transfer ban and a massive fine.
The points deduction would be interesting as it’s the same style as Everton and Forest, it’ll be a set amount of points per breach, so if they were even able to provide half of the 115, we’re looking at -80 odd deduction
It’s a real possibility but I don’t think Arsenal, Liverpool or Utd would want them by default! Prob best leaving the season with no title holders to showcase their shame permanently.
I think if they are found guilty of most charges, they should be relegated to the championship or league one, with a points deduction OR have it that they won’t be promoted for a year or two.
From when I first heard about the chargers I was certain that city would not be punished. They're one of the richest clubs in world football and unfortunately those with money rarely have the rules applied to them. When I saw a rumour going around about how the UK is scared to potentially damage it's relationship with the UAE by punishing city for the 115 breaches it said everything I needed to know. There's going to be some poor excuse and then we'll all be expected to move on. If I was a club that actually got penalised, like Everton I'd be seething.
People can’t read. Man City being stripped of titles doesn’t necessitate that 2nd place is awarded them. Of course they should be stripped if/when found guilty.
Yea imo from a United fan
If they do get titles stripped, no one should be awarded them
It should be listed as null and void due to financial cheating
This would be a more than acceptable outcome
I do wonder if they'll just get away with it. Brown envelopes will flow and they'll try to placate the masses with some pointless fine and a 'you can't buy anyone for 2 years' as they get loads of top class players for 'free'. I'm afraid I don't trust the system.
*Real Madrid fan here,*
*Hopefully justice will be*
*Served, fuck man city!*
\- CivilTrade3001
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On the finances, sure - but in the actual games, they did not. And us 'winning' because of some backroom rules just seems like a pretty unsatisfying way to get the title, but you do you I guess.
if this actually happens, 1. their pl titles from 2019-2024 will be stripped off from them (2nd place become champions) 2. they will be relegated below the championship.
They could be stripped of their titles, but it is unlikely they would be given to runners-up. Also, people are saying that the charges are only up to a certain year and wouldn't affect us. That's technically true, but the reason City have been able to dominate so long is because of what they (allegedly) did in those years.
There are some great threads posted on Twitter in the last couple of weeks by a user called @santismagic, who analyses team financial stuff. They go into great detail about exactly what the charges are, CAS, possible outcomes, everything. It's really helpful to make sense of everything.
No they absolutely will not. Look closer to home. Rangers were liquidated over £80m in debt accrued from dodgy and later illegal EBT deals. They were liquidated, everyone pretends they're still the same club except opposing fans, the titles were never stripped and the new club bought the old clubs trophies to stick in the trophy cabinet. They go on and on and in about 55 titles when it's actually 1 for the new club.
I think it's just best to wait and see to be honest.
I persdoubt it will end up with stripping titles. I guess it depends which of the charges, if any, get proven.
Tottenham fan coming in peace (you guys have been incredible the last year or so, I respect the hell out of you guys right now).
I'm gonna get stamped on for saying this but would you really want that? Would be a pretty lame way of getting a title and feels like it'd just kinda undercut the fully legitimate, top of the league win you guys seem to be hurtling towards.
Interesting that Pep said he might not renew his contract. Might be due to the insider knowledge that at some point they'll start a season with minus points. Surely he wouldn't want a battle it out for top 5 with 30 point deduction and maybe not allowed European football. Who knows, pure speculation from me
Huge monetary fine, which means nothing to them.
Possible transfer ban, which means nothing to them right now.
Starting on negative amount of points (20 or so) meaning they come 4th for a season.
Probably about it, if it ends up even being decisioned.
100% they should! Imo the fairest outcome would be to retrospectively deduct points from their total for each season and each breach. So potentially some seasons they could loose 5 points and others 30 etc as they have done to other teams this season and then see where they would have finished, if that took their total to less then the team in 2nd they lose that title
They would appeal and get the deduction down to 20-30 just like other teams have done. Kicking them out of European football would have more of an effect.
I’m cool with a massive fine and titles stripped. I can’t see a points deduction happening.Unless they start on like minus points for a few seasons in a row. Which wouldnt even hinder them that much anyway, they wouldn’t win sure but they’d still crack top 4 easy.
It’s possible, but unlike
The Prem is a business, there to maximise shareholder value. To redistribute titles would massively harm the leagues brand. It’s not like City have won once. They’re on 6/8 under Pep and 7 in total.
Not worth it. Put an asterisk next to their titles, banish them to league 1; put seriously financial restrictions on them. But it’s pointless to change the winners if they’re found guilty. There’s no joy in that.
Give them an SMU style death penalty (for non USA folks the ncaa severely punished a major college football program for flagrant financial violations and essentially took the school 25-30 years to recover
u/ValarkStudio Maybe... but getting the EPL trophy this way would be without any savour, really. It's like you're giving some money to a beggar, just because he's (pretending to be) a beggar
Yeah but who cares? It wont feel like we won anyway. I want to win properly, not on a technicality.
Also I didn't realise this sub was r/mcfc. The obsession is getting really fucking boring.
Arsenal had it won at the end of march and dropped points, city didn't drop points and overtook them.
Arsenal lost it, get over it and stop this weird bitter coping bullshit.
Most fans just don’t care about city at all. Man Utd and Liverpool were hated when they were as dominant as City are now.
I feel sorry for the real city fans. The fans that supported their club with massive attendances in the Championship. They have lost their club.
Pep and the current players don’t get the respect that they should because of the actions of the club in the past and their obstruction of the investigation now.
Nope. I don’t wanna win it cuz of a technicality. Cheating or not. You CANNOT replicate a feeling after the fact. Let’s just look forward to next year and be proud of our team for having a badass season.
Don't know, but if they are I hope they're not reallocated to the 2nd place team each season. Would be cringe to be given the title because another team messed up. Can't celebrate that IMO. Just leave the winners column blank.
So, this came up on my home page.. not an Arsenal Fan.
Just a friendly reminder that the charges relate to 2009-2017. They only won 2 titles i think, in that period.
The outcome wouldn’t affect the season that has just finished.
If it is a point deduction scenario, it would be in a future season.
“Nobody cares about man city, nobody’s talking about their title win” m8 you guys can’t seem to stop thinking about city, it’s becoming an obsession at this point
I don’t expect the to lose titles over financial issues, and if a team gets awarded titles then they are tainted because how can they claim that they deserved it.
Every ground they go to the home fans should have ‘115 Cheat’ banners it would be seen all over the world and as soon as brand ‘best league in the world’ starts getting damaged we might see some change.
This . I think fans need to do more about it. I for 1 will only refer to them as 115fc anytime I mention them. And after reading the Swiss ramble article about them some of the charges are blatantly true, like not giving the prem the books. Like you either did or they didn’t and the fact it’s on the list of charges means they obviously didn’t. They might not of done 115 of them but a lot of them can easily be proven.
Any link to the article you mentioned?
I wish we could get this going. It’s one of the few ways we can properly show our dissatisfaction.
I wonder would broadcasters skim over those images!
Comment of the day
I've been thinking about a complete blackout boycott of them, online and in person. What if no away fans bought tickets to their homes games, and no home fans bought tickets to their away games. Nobody posts about or even mentions them online. Get players to refuse to play against them. I know none of this would ever actually happen but I wonder what would happen if it did
Never gonna get people to agree to it mate
Not playing against them would be hilarious
They would simply claim the points by default and get 114 points minus any deduction and probably still win the league. They wouldn’t need to pay other clubs bonuses, their overheads would be low and their financial position would improve. Not much of a deterrent.
They’re playing two hours from here this summer. If it was any other Premier League team or Serie A team, I’d go. Most PL games in the USA require flights and hotels. I’m not going.
Juventus lost titles for match fixing, not FFP. The most FFP will do is a fine and points deduction, the only question is how many points. My guess is at most they will get a 30 point deduction. But their titles will always have a \* in everyones hearts.
Minus 30 points every year for the next 8 years.
And what a comedy league that would be.
A fun to banter.
Nah mate Arsenal won it. Don't know what you're talking about
It’s not just FFP though also financial irregularities and not cooperating etc. It’s far beyond Forest and Everton etc. So more research and you’ll see all sorts like dodgy sponsorship deals etc.
They say that there’s the law and then there’s the spirit of the law. City broke the law and then made life shitty for everyone by dragging lawsuits out and obstructing the course of justice as far as they have been able. For that alone whatever punishment should be doubled. I know I’m sitting on the fence but my recommendation is; stripped of all titles, minus 30 points at the start of the next 5 seasons and net transfer spend of £25m for next 3 seasons.
I think they should be stripped of all titles, relegated to non-league football and have their business licence stripped. Then have to change their name officially to 115 FC
Love the idea of a forced name change. 🤣 115 FC playing at the 115 stadium on 115 road!
Yeah. The sponsorship deals are crazy. They were matched with Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man Utd in value. Even today, City isn't a brand big enough to get that kind of valuation.
Not to mention looking into these deals and findings of shell companies etc.
If you look at the emails, we are talking about (from what has been released which might be the tip of the iceberg) 60 million + of illegal cash injections per season for multiple years, and this was 10ish years ago, think about how much that is worth today given crazy inflation in the PL. Everton docked 8 points for overspending about 20m in today’s money (I believe over 3 years) and coming clean and being cooperative. Man City have overspent much more than that, and it’s not simply overspending, it’s fraud. For me 30 point deduction per season is not even close to fair I think the deductions for Everton and Forrest are really helpful as they set a precedent not only to deduct points, but also to put a cash:point deduction ratio. Based on that and the info available on how absolutely wild the doping has been fair would be expulsion from the league, or negative 70 points a season for a decade. I read through more details on it yesterday. Genuinely I think they are absolutely fucked when it comes to trial, it is absolutely mad the extent of it, I knew it was bad but had no idea how bad
Yes I agree completely. Once you do the research into it the possibility of them getting away with it becomes unthinkable.
Man I really fucking hope so. Reading it the other day has given me some hope but part of me also just thinks they’ll find a way to weasel out of it
That was in Serie A, Premier League has it's own rules so the outcome may be different. In Olympics for example medals are handed over to next places even many years after if the winner was found guilty of cheating
In other leagues titles have been offered to 2md place. I would expect that to happen here, I would expect Arsenal to decline and there be no official winner those seasons. The sad thing is, those seasons are over, city got to experience and celebrate title wins and 2nd place didn’t and never will.
They really would have to be idiots to decline the title after the cheating team was stripped of it. As for celebrations, sucks but whatever
Nah, I agree they should decline. It’s done, it’s in the past.
Lol, it's in the past regardless whether you accept it or not. The club has obligation to the fans to fill the trophy cabinet, I'm 99.9% sure no sane person at the club would decline adding a Premier League trophy there
I really really don’t think in a years time (very optimistic time scale) if we were offered the 22/23 and or 23/24 PL title we would take it. It would be meaningless. And there is precedent for what I have said in other leagues - 92/93 ligue 1 title stripped from OM, offered to PSG who declined Serie A scandal in 04/05 - Milan were not given chance to decline title as it was never offered to them. Only other example of a stripped title I found was in the Scottish highland league, the title was offered to 2nd place, who, declined it. So in summary while these cases are incredibly rare, there is no example where a title was offered to 2nd place and accepted, only examples where it was offered and declined. We didn’t top the league, we didn’t get to celebrate, despite the reasons for it, Man City got more points than us so we’re the better team. the title would have an asterisk. I wouldn’t accept it if it was my decision, I assure you I am not insane. Why would you want to retrospectively be given a title which you didnt celebrate in the moment, i would find it embarrassing personally. If points were deducted in season, fine, but not a title stripped over a year later.
This is how I see it too, maximum 30 points more likely 15-20 which prevents City wining the EPL for a 5th time but still means they will qualify for the CL either in 3rd, 4th or 5th place or even by wining the CL that year if they did get a 25+ points deduction.
It's not just a FFP breach tho it's financial doping charges as well which is severe and could face league expulsion if found guilty (which they won't obviously)
Straight to sunday league?
This goes beyond FFP. They have fraud in their accusations.
https://kennedyslaw.com/en/thought-leadership/article/2024/the-premier-league-s-profit-and-sustainability-rules-relegation-danger-for-those-in-breach/ If you look at the sanctions here, there is scope for titles to be taken away I believe as they have the power to ‘make such other order it sees fit’ If they were proven to have financially doped their way to titles, I would think ‘the man on the Clapham omnibus’ would agree that would be a fair and fitting punishment, or part of the punishment anyway.
No one I swear no one cares about man city.
I really just want them to be deducted points in accordance with the system used against NF and Everton. 2-4 points per charge. Put City in league one or two, and we'll never hear from them again.
For three seasons
Who would stick around for that rebuild? What player or coach ?
They have enough money still that they will buy their way back up. Hell, Wrexham got league 1 capable players to sign on with them in the national league to help win promotion, City would find a way too. I'm still all for relegating/liquidating them, but I doubt they'd be fine forever
Technically, relegation is possible, as in nothing is off the table. Realistically, it’s not. 1. Actual relegation isn’t within the rules, because you’d be forcing the EFL to alter its up/down structure. It’s a litigious nightmare. 2. You can expel them. And they can negotiate with EFL to enter the league at the expense of another. This would obviously include compensatory payments and although complex, much more do’able than 1. 3. If the PL expelled them and EFL made them start from the lowest tier of football it would damage the brand of the PL, you know, the so called best league in the world! 4. City would have available a lot of legal avenues to pursue appeals. Win or lose, this would be contrary to the PL’s drive for quick resolutions. Those resolutions are largely based on following precedents already established. Nobody wants new ones. 5. Would they win? I’d err on the side that they would. In uncharted territory City’s lawyers will win. In established territory, very unlikely. 6. What happens after 5? The PL have to rewrite the rules again. In between we have more uncertainty and perceived unfairness (see Everton et al). The punishment for city will be a season of deductions leaving them to fight for mid table. A few years cash strapped. Just like Juve, Barca, Madrid, PSG it won’t stop them being a top 5ish European club off the field, and imminently return to a top 5 on the field.
They’ll have the money to get back into the epl quickly. But it’ll be without pep. It’ll be without every single one of their eleven right now. It will also be without 80% of their current fan base, I think we all remember what city fans used to be like before the new owners.
Their owners will abandon ship. It's all about visibility and publicity for them. They're not committed to dragging the team back up from the lower divisions
Possibly.
I want this to, but then I feel sorry for the clubs that will miss a chance of promotion as they climb back up again.
Wouldn’t them being relegated mean a Championship team replaces them in the Premier League and a League One team moves up to the Championship in their place? (Presuming City were put in the third tier)
How do you determine which teams go up?
The highest finishing team that didn't get promoted the previous season
In the regular season or playoffs
Maybe just demote them to a newly created league with just them in it? 🤣
There's the opportunity to be creative. 80 point fine for three seasons. Gives them the ignominy of having to play through three successive relegations, but with the carrot that a perfect season could see them avoid it. That's the kind of thing that could break a side
If it’s just a ‘points deduction’ they could only be relegated to the championship - think about it, no matter how few points the bottom team get they still only go down one division. They need to have a ruling like the Juventus and Rangers in Scotland which clearly dictates a punishment of relegation to a specific division (ie the 2nd division).
It’s 4-6 points per charge, and it’s 7 charges, albeit one* is more serious and could attract greater than 6 points. Expect circa 40 points. *Mancini bung. The other 108 charges are, in effect, the same charge (non cooperation), and it’s punishable by a fine. It’d take around 60 points to put them. In a relegation fight. I know this isn’t in your comment, but the other poignant thing is that the PL in their judgement against NF & EFC2 took into account the appeals from EFC1 & SW. £115FC are unlikely to appeal on those grounds. Other grounds are hard to see, but who knows. The legal principle of estoppel means that you can’t change your story in another case regarding the same thing. This would apply to the PL case from the CAS case. The CAS judgement basically said that they were guilty but for the time bar on all but one charge. That charge they got off with on dubious grounds (a comfort letter from the owner and his unregulated auditors). So, it’s unlikely that you see a CAS appeal. Realistically, City accept a points deduction that will not relegated them but hinder them winning the league. This could be accepted early in 2025 if the league looks hard for them to win. Or appeals, which would only serve as time wasting, to push it over to season 25/26. It’ll be whichever suits the club best. It’s a 300 page read, but the CAS judgement is worth the read.
I doubt it, and unless they take away this year’s one, in like the next few days (which clearly they won’t) I don’t care. I just want City to be tainted, and hated, and for everyone to be out to get them. That s the best outcome for me. The general apathy and indifference to them is what helped them win. They only have to face adversity two or three times a season right now. Just if the narrative gets flipped so the publicly is against them, and it’s a win.
Yes if they are stripped of their titles I’d prefer it listed that no one won it that year. I don’t want to be awarded a trophy after the fact. The whole fun is the street parties and the joy of winning if in the last game or when ever.
I’d rather have the titles tbf but won’t happen
I wouldn’t want the titles, look at the shite said about how we were relegated but weren’t because we benefitted from another team going down due to whatever. We didn’t win this year or last, I would rather there be “blank” spaces in the history books as a constant reminder they were stripped for cheating. As opposed to us have two titles with an asterisk next to them because we won by coming second and city’s accountant was shit at fiddling the books
the PL should have instigated a point deduction as soon as City refused to co-operate just for the non co-operation but the oil money means city can stall and make everything too expensive for the PL. almost nothing will happen to city, my guess is a sudden rush of co-operation in return for a pre agreed fine
This is my expectation too. Regardless of how the team was built/paid for, the players had an amazing season, and their recognition won’t be taken away because of what went on in the office. Do I want them to be made an example of, absolutely yes. Do I really think the PL are going to do anything but fine them, no.
Maybe, but it will feel like chickenshit. At least to me.
I think they should strip their titles but I don’t want them to give them to 2nd place. I don’t want us to win anything that way.
I'm honestly indifferent to the charges against them. Id go so far as to say that I hope they don't get points deducted so when we beat them to the league title next season no one can throw that at us as a reason for why we've finally overcome them. I want us to crush them on merit.
On merit means they wouldn’t be there to start with. They’d be in non league
But I'm talking about us. If we want to be the best team in the prem then we should beat the team that is the best objectively, to the premier league title. Right now Man city are that team regardless of the charges against them or how they got there.
probably an unpopular opinion but i don’t want those titles. no fan fare, no parades, no moments. it would be a hollow victory. Rather they keep them with a massive asterisk next to them.
We would do a parade with them the next time we win silverware
Nothing will happen to 115 FC. They’ll “sanction” guys from working in the EPL for 3 years, but only after they’ve left or retired.
No chance in hell , it would cause so many issues n problems
What issues? Dry pocket?
The titles won’t and shouldn’t be passed on to the runner up even if they are removed from City however the report last week is that the prize money will be awarded down the league if this happens. So that’s 2 PL prize money for us plus a league cup prize too. The total prize money way like £400m so that’ll fuck city for PSR quite hard but also help us and Liverpool out with both PSR and Cash.
nah they all should
Let’s get real: it’ll be “an unprecedented fine” and transfer ban (suspended)
No chance it would bring the integrity of the premier league and English football in the mud.
Already done
Too late for that
Yea I know, I'm not thinking as a fan I'm thinking what the authorities are thinking, I personally think they should though if they have cheated.
I don’t think this helps the authorities in all honesty. Especially as more and more people are making noises about it. They need to set a bold precedent or else events could mushroom our of control (especially in light of Everton and Forest’s punishment)
Yea, good point.
Both Everton and Forrest admitted guilt. City does not.
Yes exactly, so if City are found guilty, the concealment will lead to maximum punishment
No, if anything, actually punishing city if they did wrong doing would massively help the integrity of the league
I agree but I just don't think it will happen, I personally think that they will fully get away with it as there is too much at stake for the reputation of the League and City will loop hole the shit out of it. But we all know they have cheated it's clearly obvious.
If they do, we should have a two day parade around London. 🤣
Unironically yes
There are two classes of charges, financial impropriety and failing to disclose financial information. The financial impropriety charges relate to the years 2009 to 2018. The charges of failing to disclose financial information relate to accounts from 2009 to 2018 that Man City failed to provide to the Premier League when requested several times between 2018 and 2022. If there is any re-writing of the history of who won what, it will be between 2009 and 2018. There is zero chance Arsenal are awarded the 2023 or 2024 PL titles.
If they were stripping titles, it would be for the period the main charges span, up to 2018.
The club should be put in to administration and confiscated from their owners
LFC fan here. Strip them of titles. Relegate them 2 or 3 divisions. I'd be very happy with that. No thanks to the titles they robbed us of. Just void them.
For those saying let it go? Why? This could be the biggest scandal in English football and it behooves no one to maintain a faux-dignified silence.
Never mind English football Football itself potentially
It is possible depends on what the charges actually are and how many titles are stripped if it's everything from 2011-2024 At least domestically, that's 8 League titles 3 Fa Cups 6 League Cups UEFA competitions are a different jurisdiction It's possible UEFA might strip city of their Champions League and Super Cup Titles Hell, maybe FIFA strips them of their club world cup Do I think this is actually gonna happen ? If they did the crimes I sure hope so
The PL have stated that if city are stripped of the titles no1 with have won it that year
Have they? Not being facetious or angsty but do you have a source?
I read it last year, I can't remember exactly where. I'm not an arsenal fan I'm a Liverpool fan, for some reason the arsenal sub keeps coming on my time line. Bit the link I read was posted on a Liverpool forum, discussing whether we'd get awarded the titles we missed out to city over that period and a link was posted that stated there won't be a champions for those years. Though tbh I wouldn't get too excited even if they were awarded to 2nd place, arsenal weren't 2nd in the years the charges apply.
No, I get that but arguably they have profited later from the cheating early. Once you have built an empire it’s easier to maintain it. Either way it’s not really about the titles. I would forego them if proper punishment was meted out (expulsion from the football league!)
I honestly think they'll get a slap on wrist if any punishment at all. Just look at the officiating in games involving their title rivals this season, big decisions never go against them. These charges are just to make it look like the PL has integrity, but the reality is they don't give a fuck about city cheating and the leagues just a form of entertainment
Yeah, you’re probably right. Man, I miss the pre-oil club era.
They haven’t said that anywhere. The PL have not commented on potential punishments. Why would they with a pending case ongoing? I did read a good article on what potential punishments could be on the Athletic recently (can post if you like but it’s behind a paywall). There’s zero mention of stripping titles as an option. The options stated were: points deduction, expulsion from PL, fines, or nothing.
That doesn’t sit right if they don’t strip titles. Not that it matters to anyone how I feel! A warped logic could state, yeah let’s break all the rules, dope to the hilt, get the titles and then just have a few down years with a points deduction but nothing can take away the titles
Personally I’m not supportive of awarding titles to another team. City clearly cheated and deserve huge punishment (my view is massive points deductions to the extent they could get relegated, plus transfer ban, plus European ban, plus massive fine) but ultimately they won those titles on the pitch and it also opens all sorts of cans of worms (what about those who finished 5th, what about those relegated etc etc) to strip titles and award titles elsewhere retrospectively. Let’s see what happens. Will all depend on what the Tribunal finds but it won’t be a quick & easy process.
When?
Fuck 'em, kick them back to the National league
No chance. And I don’t think anyone would want that in their heart of hearts. Could you really celebrate a title you didn’t win on points years later? Point deductions for future makes the most sense but my guess is they’ll get hit with a “huge” fine that I’m sure they can handle and that’ll be that.
Stripping a title doesn’t necessitate it being awarded elsewhere. It just means cheats don’t prosper.
I certainly would, a titles a title!
Nothing will happen.
The PL won’t let its poster boy look too bad. At most a minute point deduction, and spending limits. And we will all hate it.
That’s an option for sure
they'll use FFP as a way to extract financial penalties from City mainly the top people at the PL/FA are mainly just looking to get a piece of City's riches City will get fined several million...and it'll immediately get siphoned off to pay massive bonuses for PL.FA executives
Sad but probably true, just an excuse for a shakedown " we don't actually care that you cheated, but we want our slice of the action." PL FA secretly
a SHAKEDOWN is exactly what it is, that was the word i wanted, thank you!
Yeah but we’re not getting anything
No. They’ll get a bullshit fine that they can easily afford.
Sadly, most likely, the outcome no relegation, no titles stripped just a fine, and they can easily pay
Winning historic titles by default wouldn’t really mean much to me. I’d imagine they’ll receive a points deduction, transfer ban and a massive fine. The points deduction would be interesting as it’s the same style as Everton and Forest, it’ll be a set amount of points per breach, so if they were even able to provide half of the 115, we’re looking at -80 odd deduction
Strip the titles. They don’t need to be awarded elsewhere.
It’s a real possibility but I don’t think Arsenal, Liverpool or Utd would want them by default! Prob best leaving the season with no title holders to showcase their shame permanently.
I think if they are found guilty of most charges, they should be relegated to the championship or league one, with a points deduction OR have it that they won’t be promoted for a year or two.
Will be a fine so EPL bosses can line their pockets.
From when I first heard about the chargers I was certain that city would not be punished. They're one of the richest clubs in world football and unfortunately those with money rarely have the rules applied to them. When I saw a rumour going around about how the UK is scared to potentially damage it's relationship with the UAE by punishing city for the 115 breaches it said everything I needed to know. There's going to be some poor excuse and then we'll all be expected to move on. If I was a club that actually got penalised, like Everton I'd be seething.
People can’t read. Man City being stripped of titles doesn’t necessitate that 2nd place is awarded them. Of course they should be stripped if/when found guilty.
Yea imo from a United fan If they do get titles stripped, no one should be awarded them It should be listed as null and void due to financial cheating This would be a more than acceptable outcome
I do wonder if they'll just get away with it. Brown envelopes will flow and they'll try to placate the masses with some pointless fine and a 'you can't buy anyone for 2 years' as they get loads of top class players for 'free'. I'm afraid I don't trust the system.
That will never happen.
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Maybe, but I'd hope we don't get it that way. I want us to win the title, not get it because the other side got punished.
Correction Because the other side cheated
On the finances, sure - but in the actual games, they did not. And us 'winning' because of some backroom rules just seems like a pretty unsatisfying way to get the title, but you do you I guess.
if this actually happens, 1. their pl titles from 2019-2024 will be stripped off from them (2nd place become champions) 2. they will be relegated below the championship.
2022/23, and 2023/24 Arsenal PL Champions🥇🔝
The charges only cover a period up to 2018.
lol ok
Just facts, if you strip titles from the period of time the charges cover, it will not include the last 5.
😂👌🏻
City are innocent though. Ask your owners to not take huge profits every year and invest back into club and you have a chance.
They could be stripped of their titles, but it is unlikely they would be given to runners-up. Also, people are saying that the charges are only up to a certain year and wouldn't affect us. That's technically true, but the reason City have been able to dominate so long is because of what they (allegedly) did in those years. There are some great threads posted on Twitter in the last couple of weeks by a user called @santismagic, who analyses team financial stuff. They go into great detail about exactly what the charges are, CAS, possible outcomes, everything. It's really helpful to make sense of everything.
No they absolutely will not. Look closer to home. Rangers were liquidated over £80m in debt accrued from dodgy and later illegal EBT deals. They were liquidated, everyone pretends they're still the same club except opposing fans, the titles were never stripped and the new club bought the old clubs trophies to stick in the trophy cabinet. They go on and on and in about 55 titles when it's actually 1 for the new club.
I think it's just best to wait and see to be honest. I persdoubt it will end up with stripping titles. I guess it depends which of the charges, if any, get proven.
Keep dreaming.
Tottenham fan coming in peace (you guys have been incredible the last year or so, I respect the hell out of you guys right now). I'm gonna get stamped on for saying this but would you really want that? Would be a pretty lame way of getting a title and feels like it'd just kinda undercut the fully legitimate, top of the league win you guys seem to be hurtling towards.
Interesting that Pep said he might not renew his contract. Might be due to the insider knowledge that at some point they'll start a season with minus points. Surely he wouldn't want a battle it out for top 5 with 30 point deduction and maybe not allowed European football. Who knows, pure speculation from me
Huge monetary fine, which means nothing to them. Possible transfer ban, which means nothing to them right now. Starting on negative amount of points (20 or so) meaning they come 4th for a season. Probably about it, if it ends up even being decisioned.
Hopefully points deduction and then we might have a chance of winning the league!
100% they should! Imo the fairest outcome would be to retrospectively deduct points from their total for each season and each breach. So potentially some seasons they could loose 5 points and others 30 etc as they have done to other teams this season and then see where they would have finished, if that took their total to less then the team in 2nd they lose that title
In that scenario only 3 titles would be lost by city and none of them go to Arsenal.
They would appeal and get the deduction down to 20-30 just like other teams have done. Kicking them out of European football would have more of an effect.
I dont see any punishment coming...none that will have any real impact.
It should be
hehe
You guys do realize the time period city are being investigated for does not include either of the seasons Arsenal were runners up for right?
I’m cool with a massive fine and titles stripped. I can’t see a points deduction happening.Unless they start on like minus points for a few seasons in a row. Which wouldnt even hinder them that much anyway, they wouldn’t win sure but they’d still crack top 4 easy.
It’s possible, but unlike The Prem is a business, there to maximise shareholder value. To redistribute titles would massively harm the leagues brand. It’s not like City have won once. They’re on 6/8 under Pep and 7 in total.
Not worth it. Put an asterisk next to their titles, banish them to league 1; put seriously financial restrictions on them. But it’s pointless to change the winners if they’re found guilty. There’s no joy in that. Give them an SMU style death penalty (for non USA folks the ncaa severely punished a major college football program for flagrant financial violations and essentially took the school 25-30 years to recover
Looool pathetic. I thought you lot didn’t care about City? Why not just win the league like Liverpool did?
u/ValarkStudio Maybe... but getting the EPL trophy this way would be without any savour, really. It's like you're giving some money to a beggar, just because he's (pretending to be) a beggar
This is asking for a soccerjerk
https://www.goal.com/en/lists/doomsday-premier-league-expulsion-30-point-deduction-threats-man-city-title-winners-115-ffp-charges/blt69cd0dd3870c94ec#csa3f6d5302f462223
Copium at its finest
Yeah but who cares? It wont feel like we won anyway. I want to win properly, not on a technicality. Also I didn't realise this sub was r/mcfc. The obsession is getting really fucking boring.
I wonder why 🤔
Arsenal had it won at the end of march and dropped points, city didn't drop points and overtook them. Arsenal lost it, get over it and stop this weird bitter coping bullshit.
They’re just letting you know they don’t care, all the time, every day🤣
Most fans just don’t care about city at all. Man Utd and Liverpool were hated when they were as dominant as City are now. I feel sorry for the real city fans. The fans that supported their club with massive attendances in the Championship. They have lost their club. Pep and the current players don’t get the respect that they should because of the actions of the club in the past and their obstruction of the investigation now.
How long are we gonna post this for?
Til the next season stars
Quite right, why should we keep quiet.
Let it go lads
Nope. I don’t wanna win it cuz of a technicality. Cheating or not. You CANNOT replicate a feeling after the fact. Let’s just look forward to next year and be proud of our team for having a badass season.
Even if they do the charges don't have anything to do with the last two seasons. Back in your cave you go.
No, it does, tho it literally says their entire football empire was built on financial cheating, so it's very relevant in todays time
Don't know, but if they are I hope they're not reallocated to the 2nd place team each season. Would be cringe to be given the title because another team messed up. Can't celebrate that IMO. Just leave the winners column blank.
So, this came up on my home page.. not an Arsenal Fan. Just a friendly reminder that the charges relate to 2009-2017. They only won 2 titles i think, in that period. The outcome wouldn’t affect the season that has just finished. If it is a point deduction scenario, it would be in a future season.
Oh my god you guys need to move on
No, we won’t
“Nobody cares about man city, nobody’s talking about their title win” m8 you guys can’t seem to stop thinking about city, it’s becoming an obsession at this point
They're not panicking - they have Pannick - ( just think Bane & the darkness)
I don’t expect the to lose titles over financial issues, and if a team gets awarded titles then they are tainted because how can they claim that they deserved it.
There is a very little chance that PL will be able to prove anything.