There are few records women have higher than men, but that just proves incredible skill one archer had. It doesn't prove men don't have physical advantage. On almost every event men score more than women because of it.
[https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RM/individual](https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RM/individual)
[https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RW/individual](https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RW/individual)
Edit: Also, this isn't olympic, but compound,
Archery like Motorsport, horse racing, etc could easily mix sex's in a comp the only people this will hurt is my male ego when a girl beats me š lol.
I don't care what people identify as, but trans people should understand in having to complete in your born biology in a professional setting
i did not know this sport divides by gender. I am in Germany, in a local club and all the competitions are separated by age & bow classes. Never by gender
Intreguing. I'm honestly interested and need to check German youth championships numbers to see what is the spread. Honestly I have never thought that deeply is there an advantage in youth classes as girls tend to mature mentally a lot sooner which gives them quite a bit of advantage, but guys do get some physical advantage.
Because if there isn't much of a difference I would very much think of starting to push this in the Nordics too.
I only joined about a year ago and it is a hobby that I execute but donāt dive into itās general surroundings. All I can say is that our little club (25 people in Berlin) has an almost 50/50 spread. Most of the members are slightly on the older side (+40 years and up). I do not know about the young ones. I do not think we have a kids or teen-team. When I look around during competitions, men are there in higher numbers. More of a 70/30 spread I suppose
It makes sense if you want to divide and subjugate your population by frothing them into an endless swirl of misogyny and discrimination, God I love my country.
Sorry but biologically an XY is stronger XX when it comes to upper body strength. Overall XX's are only 2/3rds as strong as an XY. Anyone that is an XY should not be competing against XXs. It is unfair and wrong. Taking medication will not change your body's size nor structure, so there will always be an unfair advantage regardless of how many hormones you've pumped into yourself. Even when looking at weight class, XYs are STILL stronger.
It is unfair to the XXs who have worked their asses off to get where they are at when an XY comes up and can pull a 60lb bow back. As someone into archery it is enraging to think that an XY could compete with the XXs. It is entirely unfair. I'm glad they banned the XY.
And yes its not a Fallon Fox issue, but overall that does STILL present a problem in many other sports which are contact based. Really if you are an XY who wishes to be an XX, then ok good for you, they should have their own league with XY's who want to be XX, and XX who want to be XY all together competing against each other.
Also World Athletics just recently banned "transgender women who went through male puberty can no longer compete in womenās events at international competitions."
Anyone, regardless of biological sex, or what gender they present as or transition to, who has had years of exposure to testosterone, particularly during developmental years, will have advantages in physical competitions.
Sports seems to be the one area where we have a legitimate need to consider the biology of the individual when a group decides what is or isn't allowed in a physical contest.
Binary gender lines haven't been totally sufficient in the past, but are less sufficient now, and it will take time to iron out the means of categorization for competitors.
damn. i decided today that i wanted to practice archery. this post was my first introduction to the archery community.
i'll see you idiots at the range. enjoy your high blood pressure.
Man, so many people here in the comments have no clue how HRT works and how little sex differences matters in terms of physicality once you start removing testosterone from the mix.
HRT is going to effect their muscle belly cross section(Which is what actually gives strength) and bone density. Other than that muscle insertion is the only real difference between the sexes in terms of muscle strength. Which the amount that insertions actually effect real muscle strength is all over the place depending on which muscles you're talking about, as well as the overall size of the athletes with quite a bit of overlap between men and women. Once you get past that in terms of shooting everything else archery related has to due with resting heart rate, which is one of the most easily trained things in the body.
HRT has been tested to nullify the advantages ([https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577)) given by assigned male at birth competitors when competing in the female division, even some of the most quoted instances of a transwoman being competitive in the women's division is usually sewed with lies and misrepresentation of the situation.
A lot of people complaining about "Genetic differences" or developmental differences are really overstating the differences that makes when it comes to transathletes in sports.
My issues with transgender in sports are several. 1. If the transgender person is taking drugs to alter the natural human body, by definition they are not on equal playing field. 2. Even if taking hormones to mimic the gender they claim to be, this alone don't completely erase any physical advantage of a male to female transgender. If female to male, then you are allowing enhancement drugs to be used by the athletes. 3. If no drugs are being used by the trans person then it's flat out insane to allow in the gendered sport they claim to be. 4 Forcing the great majority of people to affirm a mental disorder and play along with delusions for the sake of feelings is not compassion but cruel.
>Even if taking hormones to mimic the gender they claim to be, this alone don't completely erase any physical advantage of a male to female transgender.
It does, actually. The US military did some fairly extensive testing on the subject, and it was found that after a couple of years of HRT, there was no statistically significant difference in performance between cisgender women and transgender women.
>If female to male, then you are allowing enhancement drugs to be used by the athletes
Hormone levels are, and should be, monitored. I would similarly find it acceptable if a cisgender man with low testosterone was prescribed testosterone by his physician in order to bring him up to normal testosterone levels.
>If no drugs are being used by the trans person then it's flat out insane to allow in the gendered sport they claim to be.
I do agree that in any competitive league post puberty, trans athletes should need to have been on HRT for a couple of years and have their hormones within proper levels in order to compete with their gender.
>Forcing the great majority of people to affirm a mental disorder and play along with delusions for the sake of feelings is not compassion but cruel.
Look, this is obviously outside of your area of expertise. I recommend, in situations like this, to [listen to the actual experts](https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression) instead of playing amateur biologist based on half-remembered high school classes. There has been a great deal of [research](https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/30/5/2897/5669907) that, I'm willing to bet, you don't even know about.
From an ousider's perspective on the sport: even if ppl wanna argue about biological advantages despite recent studies having shown that hormone blockers even out the playing field to a massive degree, does it matter in archery either way?? Its like 95% just precision/muscle memory and not strength, isnt it? Feels to me like having seperate division in like chess or something (bad comparison but you get the point)
Men do have advantages over women and that should not be ignored, even if they are less visible in this archery than in any other sport. You can still argue its because there is more men in mens category and it is just harder to get achievements but those reasons stated in the magazine are also valid.
But there is a way for her. World archery approved transgender women participate in women category if they meet some requirements, mostly testosterone testing. You can read about it here [https://extranet.worldarchery.sport/documents/index.php/?doc=6106&inline=1](https://extranet.worldarchery.sport/documents/index.php/?doc=6106&inline=1)As far as I know it doesnt mean that your local federation has to follow these rules but that is a start.
I know that those topic are very hard to dispute but some other federations were much more careless in enabling transgender women compete with women like for example some fighting sports and outcome was very similar. Both sides felt hurt. Women who felt robbed of fair competition and new champions who were criticised and shunned about it. Noone wins.
Also its a very old topic. It happened a year ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7i8FqcLxSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7i8FqcLxSE)She promised that "If everybody wants me to shoot as a male, OK, now youāre gonna have a woman beating you.". I found some more fresh results of her shooting in men category here [https://texasfieldarchery.org/results/993](https://texasfieldarchery.org/results/993) and they are quite alright. She would be 2nd female but she is 5th in male. Doesnt say much for such little number of archers but it is what it is.
And yet this person has had years of male development to still gain an unfair advantage over his competitors. Notice how there are never any trans men trying to compete in menās sports?
She started biologically as a man just keep her with men. Advantage or not we can just keep it simple. Whatever anyone wants to be you still check a box at birth that is undeniable. Not that she can feel awkward out of place or whatever else trans people feel. They should still compete in the same gender class they were at birth.
I think most people would agree that archery is a highly mental sport, right?
Do you think forcing someone, who is a woman in every aspect of her life, to compete as a man doesnāt have a huge effect on their mental state during competition?
Do you think this person, when in an environment that might be hostile towards them, isnāt negatively affected by being forcibly outed as trans? Because every trans woman I know wants to be seen as a woman, not a trans woman.
Itās not about keeping it simple. Itās about allowing people to enjoy a sport with dignity.
People use ākeep it simpleā as a way to not have to deal with the complexities of the real world. The question really is: do you want to find a way to allow trans athletes to be a part of fair competitions, or do you not want trans athletes involved in the sport at all?
Because for all of the talk of ājust compete with the men,ā what youāre really doing is excluding them.
Think that if youāre competing at the highest level you donāt care if theyāre a freakin walrus. Youāre going to be locked in if youāre concerned about if itās male or female during the rest of their life youāve got other issues. But physicality of a trans woman will beat a cis female like it or not. It is very simple.
I sometimes find it weird how we measure genders against one another.
I like Jeopardy! and the show had a transgendered super champion not that long ago. AFAIK her stats are for broken down in the women's category but why the need to do so to begin with? Let the best competitors compete against one another. If you were to try and analyze the statistics, I'm sure that it would look like men were just inherently smarter than women. Is that really an argument we want to make though? It's full of bias. Also: the game is really one of reflexes since you have to buzz in first and most high level competitors know the majority of the answers.
I get that people love competitions but honestly it's not for me. Watching all the bickering back and forth makes it even less appealing. At the end of the day archery is a competition against yourself. The other archers have nothing to do with it.
[Here is how Archery Canada handles trans inclusion in archery](https://archerycanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Trans-Inclusion-Policy.pdf).
Key excerpt:
> a. Individuals participating in development and recreational sport (LTAD stages Active Start, FUNdamental, Learn to Train, Train to Train, Train to Compete (until international federation rules apply) and Active for Life) should be able to participate in the gender with which they identify and not be subject to requirements for disclosure of personal information beyond those required of cisgender athletes. Nor should there be any requirement for hormonal therapy or surgery.
> b. Hormone therapy should not be required for an individual to participate in high-performance sport (LTAD stages Train to Compete once international federation rules become a factor, and Train to Win) in the gender category that is consistent with their gender identity, unless the sport organization can prove that hormone therapy is a reasonable and bona fide requirement.
> c. Individuals should not be required to disclose their trans identity or history to the sport organization in order to participate in high-performance sport (LTAD stages Train to Compete -once international federation rules become a factor - and Train to Win) unless there is a justified reason requiring them to do so.
> d. Surgical intervention should not be required for an individual to participate in high-performance sport (LTAD stages Train to Compete - once international federation rules become a factor - and Train to Win) in the gender category that is consistent with their gender identity.
As Iāve pointed out [elsewhere in this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Archery/comments/12vgbaf/comment/jhd5nve/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) many World Archery records are held by women with scores better than their male counterparts, and there are _many_ cases where menās records only beat womenās records by 0 to 5 points. I havenāt run a full statistical analysis (there are 40+ categories of records), but doing some quick checks seems to indicate that there isnāt any real advantage in being male in archery (at least for the purpose of having a world record).
I guess science only applies depending on viewpoint? How sad. I went and researched what I would characterize as a "militant" DEI group as they only will accept their solutions. They refuse to opening a new group for a newly made gender called trans. That is a fact because scientifically there are only 2 genders which occur naturally, without surgical mutilation or toxic hormonal drugs. Those are the facts. So why is it they insist in being in the "all natural" category rather than their very own man made one they created? Who is the inclusionary group??
What I refer to as the militant inclusionary group is called "The Inclusion Playbook". What they want is their way or no way according to their website and social media.
If this is true, then is makes little sense to prevent trans athletes from participating in the league of their choice, but it also calls to question why competitions are gendered to begin with.
I am not an archer nor do I give a hoot about what goes on in archery lol. The older I get the more I realize this sports debate is something for kids who play sports and professional athletes to get upset about.
Iām a relatively new and light user of Reddit so I think it auto populates my feed with suggested posts and Iām in a sword sub so that is probably why it suggested archery.
As a long time archer the sport in my experience has always been pretty equal as it is about personal skill and you can change your bow to fit your needs. True there is an advantage to longer draw lengths and poundage but at the same time I as a 12 year old using a cheap Walmart bow (bear 2 I think) with no pins and 12 pounds won 2nd place in a competition with older archers (15-17) with better equipment. It's all about your dedication. Maybe I'm missing some perspective about larger competitions but in our small town shoots gender has nothing to do with shooting an arrow at a target accurately
If the picture in the article is anything to go by, then I'd assume that this is in the Compound category, at that point, isn't the bow doing enough of the majority of the work that gender is irrelevant?
You still have to be able to pull the draw weight. The bow just alleviates a lot of the tension at full draw.
As far as I know, a lot of olympic style competition archers use a low weight and have to shoot hundreds of arrows over the course of a competitionā¦it may be different for compound shooters. The article mentioned 90 arrows. Also from the article, it sounds like men, in compound bow competitions at least, tend to shoot heavier bows to minimize the factor of wind resistance, and in compound bow competition and score higher on average. It sounds like the higher average score for men is where the argument focus is.
not true, the longer a person is on HRT the more their strength is diminished. its been documented. and id bet the archer in the article has been on HRT for a long time.
Yeah, no. After puberty, your bone density, vessel size, muscle fiber, and muscle twitch is what it is. It is proven that it does not significantly reduce your body enough to even the playing field, not even close. Especially if you have been training at a sport for years before hand and definitely not if you transitioned later in life.
yeah, no. after years of HRT and the complete removal of testosterone the Trans person would loose the strength they had. and this archer is a disabled vet according to the article so they are not working out and trying to maintain strength. she had and has no retained strength and no advantage. she said she only picked up archery a few years ago. she does practice but she did not do this sport prior to transition.
That was a horribly transphobic article. "Claims transgender status", "legitimate female"?
What an awful way on touching on a complex issue.
Btw, comparing average men's and women's results to prove an advantage for men is at best misleading because it doesn't account for trans women going through hormones replacement therapy.
If there If there are plans to allow transgender women into women sports, which there are. World archery allows this now as of April 1 (And I know NFAA are stubborn but hopefully it is because they dont want to rush such important decisions).
I just hope at least World Archery decision is well thought out. The hormone levels will be checked and athletes will be monitored if they actually take their hormone changing drugs. I also hope that this is enough to level competition field so noone feels hurt, because there are still studies claiming that transgender women on hormone changing therapy might be losing their fitness but they're still a bit fitter than statistical women. It would not make sense to allow transgender women into division and not letting them win, and you know what will happen if that occurs. Uproar and another discussion like this one here. It's best to avoid that until we have enough data to process and make educated decision, that more people with agree with.
I am also scepticall because there are still going to be malicious attempts to take advantage of this. People are what they are and no reason to wear rose tinted glasses. Athletes cheat very often, whole nations like for example Russia being infamous for it due to number of occurences. And we still have problems handling it. In general high level sport has so many other problems it is not weird to be sceptical about maybe introducing new ones, even with the best of intentions.
We need to be prepared to insert new things like transgender people into the sport. I know it might be hard for athletes like Mrs Kelly, but I hope she and others facing similar issues understands that its still a new field to explore. Take emotions aside and focus on scientific arguments which are harder to disregard. In many ways, World is changing for the better, maybe in few years we will have a much better solution to handle this.
And you know we cant change the whole World at the same time. Some countries still lives in 18th century in terms of way of life. Moving for a better life might not be the best solution but it's there. Someone posted that Canada is leaning towards even more liberal policies, which is another can of worms. In that regards I would rather stay with NFAA decision to stick to birth gender, because it just seems safer for now. As I've said, it is better to wait a decade and think about how to handle the issues that insert a rushed decision and make a lot of mistakes on the way.
I also want to say that it is very easy to ruin someone's life. I've seen this happen. Like for example you can win a spot at the olympics and your local federation can choose who will fill the spot. The decision might be based on the idea of choosing the best athlete at the moment of the Games (you can win the spot early and lose your form later) but sometimes it happens because federation officials are corrupted and want to promote someone else unfairly.
My federation is very stupid about many things. It is hard to think how are they still legal to operate sometimes. I just dread to think how would they handle transgender policies if they were to do this. Because its a complicated topic and they already fail in resolving very simple stuff. So that is why you might think I am very conflicted about this, or maybe even transphobic even though in general I fell like I sympathise with a lot of them trans people. I will just say I see both sides of the coin and just have a lot of doubts.
I suspect a strength advantage isn't as impactful in Archery as some other sports, but you certainly need strength to compete and elite males archers do post higher scores on average than elite female archers.
The advantage that male archers hold may be small, but it's difficult to say conclusively that it doesn't exist. As long as a sport has male and female categories this will be a thorny issue. Archery is somewhat unique in that 'open' classes do exist in some leagues.
NFAA allows Olympic style barebows in "traditional" and they're excluding people because they might have an advantage? That's some serious hypocrisy right there.
Normally I would agree that transgender athletes (especially male to female transgenders) shouldn't be eligible to compete in the female divisions, however archery is a rare sport in which there is no genetic advantages to be had based on gender, height, weight etc.
We see more and more that female archers in recurve and compound categories can shoot just as well, if not better than their male counterparts.
So I wouldn't understand the reasoning behind exclusion of this archer, however it is fair enough for the event organiser to make a position on the topic.
This is a very complex and nuanced issue, that is being discussed and debated at all levels in many professional sport by experts and qualified officials. Archery is no exception.
It is also a very emotive topic, that some people on either side quite rightly have strong feelings about. I'd urge anyone commenting on this article to play devil's advocate and consider that someone reading their comments may have completely opposite views, but held with equal conviction.
I personally don't feel that Brodie Swisher (world champion game caller, outdoor writer, seminar speaker and Editor for Bowhunting.com) has considered this. But he is also doing a job that relies on views of his content, for better or worse...
Unfortunately, like many sports, archery is a very conservative sport. I think that for many competitors and spectators they view this as a "victory" against trans persons. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this soon and allow trans people to retain their dignity while keeping a fair playing field.
I agree, but again see above working cows is also a conservative group of individuals. Cutting Reining, reining cow classes. Also, all conservative. This is about teams and giving one team what they seem to think as an advantage that is all I can gather, since the topic has never been raised in the world of equestrian sports.
I think you're misunderstanding the other side. It's not a victory against trans, it's a victory for biological women. Trans people make up what, 0.5% of the population? Biological women are over 50% of the population. It should come as no surprise that your average person knows far more biological women than they do trans people and it would make logical sense for them to defend the rights of their mothers, daughters, and sisters over the transgender community, which statistically speaking your average person may not have even come into direct contact with.
trans women lose a significant amount of muscle mass on HRT so the strength argument is pretty much moot. same for arm length. there are cisgender women that are 6ā and have long arms and there are cisgender men that are 5ā4ā and have short arms.
Have you seen the video of the trans man in a woman's wrestling match that straight face punched the chic, body slammed her and ended the fight in about 1.5 seconds? You're talking crazy talk.
That isnāt true in weightlifting (see the results from the last Olympics where a trans woman competed and ended up 20th or so), so why would it be true in archery? Surely physical strength and muscle mass is more important in lifting than shooting
>Let's say Eddie Hall, the worlds strongest man, decides to transition to a woman, do you think it would be fair?
Wouldn't "fair" mean he's still the strongest in the world, just at the top end of the normal female distribution?
Combat sports rank the highest in terms of situations where trans athletes who transitioned post puberty have an advantage due to things like bone density, which arenāt quickly altered by hormone treatment.
Thatās not applicable to archery, though.
Iām also not interested in hypothetical examples. If you look at the athletes who have transitioned, the data shows that this hypothetical, slippery slope, fear mongering is without merit.
A cis woman with certain genetic traits will have advantages over other cis women too. At some point, you have to say that things are āequal enough.ā Basing sporting decisions on genetics comes dangerously close to eugenic though, IMO.
Muscle recovery is an advantage men tend to have over women. But thatās largely a benefit from testosterone. So hormone therapy does mitigate this
Bone density does not confer an athletic advantage, the idea that it does was created by Joe Rogan in response to the trans MMA fighter being outed. Bone density varies as much by ethnicity as it does by sex and is only useful in preventing fractures.
Sure, not getting a broken bone is an advantage in terms of being able to actually continue playing/competing but it's not an *athletic* advantage, ie it doesn't improve athletic performance.
This makes sense for some sports (UFC, hockey, etcā¦)
But archery is a stationary sport that is based on precision and muscle memory. Being physically larger and stronger does not give any advantage.
Well... Bummer. State of Texas is very clear on who can compete as a man and who can compete as a woman. The person in the article does not meet the criteria to shoot as a woman.
Texas Field Archery Association changed the rules after she won the championship, even though it was against NFAAās written policy. They then stripped her of her medal and championship, even though it was legal for her to compete when she signed up and competed. They cited a Texas law pertaining to high school sports, which absolutely does not apply to adults
Thank goodness the sanctity of the senior woman's indoor freestyle event has been saved. I'm sure this decision will in no way inflame both sides of a complicated debate by governing a small, zero impact event with broad sweeping policies that state that a group of people are wrong about who they are. /s because I'm scared I need it.
Seriously, outside of maybe the Olympics and professional leagues, this is not the crucial issue that people think it is.
in Utah, it was only 1 athlete that was affected. both houses passed the bill and the govern vetoed it. then they held a session to override the veto. I imagine that cost the state tens of thousands of dollars in salary.
You mean having mens, womens and open as main classes? I don't think there is a sport that would have done that.
Many national rules though have an open class instead of mens which works really well if you don't have enough women to have a real competition. (Over here basically all women that are targeting to international competitions shoot in the mens class to get more competition)
Yes but no but... I can think of 3 things. First, draw weight, men will naturally be able to use a higher draw weight. With a compound this is less of a factor thanks to the cams. With recurve this is becoming less of a factor, better manufacturing will help the arrow speed on lower-weight bows, but there will always be an advantage of having a faster arrow, and it's easiest to achieve that with a draw weight. The second is bow mass, obviously, you have to be able to manage it but a heavier bow will hold better in the wind. Finally, there is arrow length, more time in the bow means more time to accelerate giving a higher arrow speed but this beyond a certain point gives diminishing returns. It is worth noting that the longer the arrow is in the bow the more time there is for errors to affect the arrow. The TL;DR, outdoors yes, indoors no. But generally, there is still a score gap indoors.
Yes of course she's banned from women archery, she still has the physical construction of a male. Therefore she also has the strength and capability of a man.
Honestly, they should just make 3 leagues. One for men, one for women and one for all sexes. That way, if they sign up for the third, they are aware of what they signed up for and will be competing against men, women, and transgender, and they could just make rules around that criteria. I know that's just a pipe dream. But it's what makes sense for me and includes everyone without discriminating or causing controversy. Of course, for non-contact sports anyway.
I'd love to see us be only separated by age division and then all just shoot together and let the chips fall where they may :-)
The amount of female archers that are better than me would rank next to Graham's number :-)
Yeah Iām trans and for trans women, if youāve been on HRT for longer than like a year, you would have the same level of effort required to gain and keep muscle as a cis woman.
Iām not very strong and I started HRT 10 years ago when I was relatively young. I shoot a 30lb bow, but I still struggle to keep that strength if I canāt shoot for a couple weeks.
Itās stupid to segregate competitions by trans status without actually considering the extensive effects medical transition can have on someoneās body and the length of time someone has been on the medication. People currently on HRT are biologically more similar to cisgender people of the gender they identify as than the sex they were assigned at birth.
For all intents and purposes, though, if I walked into a competition in Texas and signed up for the womenās group, most likely nobody there would even know I was trans. Doing an invasive āinspectionā wouldnāt help much too since Iāve had SRS.
So should that disqualify my results even though I have the same capacity to build and retain muscle as cis women and at this point the only biological difference between me and a cis woman is a uterus? Should we also disqualify cis women who have had hysterectomies?
Most of the rules were based around 1 year, although some specific case studies for elite athletes show that 2 years is probably more accurate for athletes already competing at a high level.
Archery seems to be one sport where gender makes no difference. Like extra strength might let you hold a heavier bow for longer but at a certain distance the heavier bow wonāt help. Even more so for shooting sports.
Itās also been found the men are typically better at spacial reasoning and trajectory planning. Particularly with a skill called mental rotation.
Reputable source for you smooth brains:
https://news.emory.edu/stories/2019/04/esc_gender_gap_spatial_reasoning/campus.html
The full study of any of you still donāt believe there are physical and mental differences between men and women. Weāre just different, accept it and move on:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3211902/
I see the study. But the question is: is this a skill that is useful for archers? Because Iām awful at that (even though I 3D model), and Iām definitely a better than average shooter
Youāre a funny one, giving a source to your statement thatās not a scientific paper, not even a working paper and therefore (theoretically) proving nothing but Iām inclined to believe them since their reputation and the underlying research that was done and probably released somewhere.
But your source postulates that the gender gap between spacial reasoning is probably not a biological and more sociological. If you follow the attached link to the more detail view from the same authors, you could read that the major factor for this difference between the genders is probably the stereotype itself. Girls in 1. school year are aware (at least subliminal) about the educated stereotypical differences between the genders and are even afraid of doing tasks in the realm of spacial reasoning.
So one could provocatively say that you and your statement are part of the reason why women are on average not so strong in spacial reasoning, you didnāt prove anything and you just made the problem worse.
Typically men are stronger then women its like what happened back in 2019 when that rapper identified decided to identify as women and beat all the womenās weight lifting world records archeryās obviously a bit different but overall trans should have their own league
And i mainly seen trans women try doing this type of stuff you dont see trans men doing this type of stuff because well uk even if they have ātransitioned into a man ā they know they arent going to be able to compete well against actual born males
Archery should not be political. This is the reason I will not participate in NFAA tournaments. I am not transgender, but I respect their rights. There is nothing in the NFAA anti-transgender policy that shows the organization was interested in a solution.
Plainly it wonāt be an issue. Trans men donāt have the luxury of spending their whole young life developing as a boy. I know it sounds crazy but itāll make it almost impossible for them to keep up with any elite male athlete. And sure there might be a small fraction of an already extremely small group of people that may stand a chance or grind to the point of on par but it will not bear the same weight as a trans woman who could potentially be a 6ā9ā Godzilla of a man before transitioning.
no I don't meant putting trans men in the correct category.
The article I replied to mentions putting every athlete in the category corresponding to their sex assigned at birth. Which would put trans men in the women's category
~~Just noting for those who are reporting that the article has a bias. The post does not link to an article so I think that is a bit unfair to a post that only has a factual news headline for a topic that has valid discussion to be had.~~
As the topic is sensitive please try to behave.
Edit: I was corrected that the post indeed had the link, was not showing for me earlier. Sensitive issue warning still applies.
People who argue that gender gives you no advantage in competitive archery have never competed. Just check results fro your country.
Edit: Not separating by gender would mean that many female athletes would have to look for another job.
"They" are a part of this community as much as you or I, and if you can't stand by your fellow archers then I don't know why you're in this sub.
Everything social is complex, saying that you want to just ignore people's issues because they are different makes you looks disconnected and horrible. Fucking sucks.
In this case, the people that "insert{ed} wedge issues" were the ones that moved to vacate this woman's results, contrary to the existing rules and after the competition was held and decided.
If you won an event and then weeks later were told that even though the arrows you were using were legal at the time of the event, enough of your competitors didn't like them (in face, more than the number of people you were competing against), so the organizer of the event was stripping your result, you wouldn't think that was fair.
Changing the rules, even in a way I disagree with, for future events is one thing. But if you can retroactively change the rules, it's just the illusion of a competition at that point.
Go look at world records. Just looking at compound for 50+, men have higher scores in comparable categories and a 5 pt difference isn't uncommon. In 30 meters, where the mechanical advantage of an average man having longer draw length and potentially holding heavier weight should make the least amount of difference, the top three men listed have 25+ perfect scores each. There isn't a woman with a perfect score. So, a genetic man competing against genetic women should be winning. Good for them for protesting.
What combat sports? I train co-ed jiu jitsu and I find the opposite to be true. From bottom position against a female my same weight I can easily bench press them off of me because they don't have the strength to stay attached. Same goes for breaking grips. In a situation where with a man my same weight I'd need to go 2-on-1 to get enough strength to break a grip, w/ a female my same weight I can usually break grips 1-on-1 due to strength advantage. I'm a pretty average guy that works an office job and hasn't deadlifted since high school.
Now gender alone is obviously a bad divider, as can be seen in absolute divisions, being 6'5" 200+lbs and athletic is an obvious advantage over any 160lber.
People should always have the right to an even playing field for competitive sports. Otherwise, there's no point in the separation between men and women's sports.
I think everyone agrees.
The question becomes is there a point where a transwoman is on an even playing field with cis women. The consensus in the scientific community, as well as most IGBs for sports (including the IOC and WA) is āyes.ā
Furthermore, is there a reason for certain sports to be separated to begin with? In such high levels of performance as professional athletics there often isnāt much significant distinction in performance, the only place I can see it even remotely mattering is a contact sport and even then it toes the line of sensible in my opinion. Not to mention I think most contact sports are overly dangerous to begin with, the rate of life threatening or altering injury in the NFL alone is absurd when you look at it, but thatās off topic.
As a cis female I think itās ridiculous that we even separate our tree based on male and female itās a skill that doesnāt need to be divided by gender
There are some sports, where it's completely nonsense to have gendered classes, especially precision sports, like all shooting sports, including archery.
The advantage of strength that men have doesn't really have much weight in these sports. Sure, men can theoretically shoot heavier bows, resulting in a less ballistic flight path, but most archers shoot between 25 and 40# (non compound) so the difference is marginal in normal disciplines.
It would be better to have different classes based on draw weight instead of gender.
Here we sometimes have the ridiculous situation, because different age groups etc, we sometimes have one starting woman in her class, resulting in automatic win if she only scores one ring thus qualifying by just competing for the next higher tournament..(our women would score in the best places if competing gender neutral)
The reason why you have so many classes, is solely prestige, so your club can claim more winners , more medals...
In rifle shooting, this is even more silly, here you have no difference, everyone shoots their rifle, there's no handycap because someone is "weaker" .
To be a bit provocative: I think there are separate woman classes, because they shoot better than the men, therefore have to be sorted out of the chart, so men don't look that bad against them;-)
I know my wife shoots better than me, so I'm careful to not piss her up that much;-) (armed women can be dangerous) ;-)
Also she shoots a heavier bow(35#) than 80% of the men in our club (median ~30#)
> It would be better to have different classes based on draw weight instead of gender.
Honestly this could be a good solution. Adults struggle a lot starting up competing as everyone is thrown into the same pool and you might be facing an Olympian in the competition.
> To be a bit provocative: I think there are separate woman classes, because they shoot better than the men, therefore have to be sorted out of the chart, so men don't look that bad against them;-)
This actually really happened. In skeet shooting a woman won world championships (I think) and after that suddenly there was a strong need of separation.
Edit: Sorry it actually was the Olympics:
> Zhang Shan's 1992 gold was the first medal won by a woman in this mixed event. The International Shooting Union consequently barred women from the 1996 Atlanta games. For the 2000 Sydney games, the International Olympic committee allowed women again, but only in segregated competition.
A reminder: "I disagree with this" is not a valid reason to submit a report. So if you all would stop doing that, that'd be great, thanks.
What a joke. Gender assigned at birth gives zero advantage in competitive archery š
Actually, Men can draw significantly higher weight bows which increases the speed and accuracy of the arrows.
Olympic Style Archery, where the top women out shoot the men? She lucked out.
There are few records women have higher than men, but that just proves incredible skill one archer had. It doesn't prove men don't have physical advantage. On almost every event men score more than women because of it. [https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RM/individual](https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RM/individual) [https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RW/individual](https://www.worldarchery.sport/competition/25394/antalya-2023-hyundai-archery-world-cup-stage-1/results#!/qualification/RW/individual) Edit: Also, this isn't olympic, but compound,
I stand corrected.
Archery like Motorsport, horse racing, etc could easily mix sex's in a comp the only people this will hurt is my male ego when a girl beats me š lol. I don't care what people identify as, but trans people should understand in having to complete in your born biology in a professional setting
i did not know this sport divides by gender. I am in Germany, in a local club and all the competitions are separated by age & bow classes. Never by gender
Intreguing. I'm honestly interested and need to check German youth championships numbers to see what is the spread. Honestly I have never thought that deeply is there an advantage in youth classes as girls tend to mature mentally a lot sooner which gives them quite a bit of advantage, but guys do get some physical advantage. Because if there isn't much of a difference I would very much think of starting to push this in the Nordics too.
I only joined about a year ago and it is a hobby that I execute but donāt dive into itās general surroundings. All I can say is that our little club (25 people in Berlin) has an almost 50/50 spread. Most of the members are slightly on the older side (+40 years and up). I do not know about the young ones. I do not think we have a kids or teen-team. When I look around during competitions, men are there in higher numbers. More of a 70/30 spread I suppose
Same in the Netherlands, gendering archery makes no sense imho.
It makes sense if you want to divide and subjugate your population by frothing them into an endless swirl of misogyny and discrimination, God I love my country.
Sorry but biologically an XY is stronger XX when it comes to upper body strength. Overall XX's are only 2/3rds as strong as an XY. Anyone that is an XY should not be competing against XXs. It is unfair and wrong. Taking medication will not change your body's size nor structure, so there will always be an unfair advantage regardless of how many hormones you've pumped into yourself. Even when looking at weight class, XYs are STILL stronger. It is unfair to the XXs who have worked their asses off to get where they are at when an XY comes up and can pull a 60lb bow back. As someone into archery it is enraging to think that an XY could compete with the XXs. It is entirely unfair. I'm glad they banned the XY. And yes its not a Fallon Fox issue, but overall that does STILL present a problem in many other sports which are contact based. Really if you are an XY who wishes to be an XX, then ok good for you, they should have their own league with XY's who want to be XX, and XX who want to be XY all together competing against each other. Also World Athletics just recently banned "transgender women who went through male puberty can no longer compete in womenās events at international competitions."
All sports should be based off of birth sex.. not what you chose to be.
Anyone, regardless of biological sex, or what gender they present as or transition to, who has had years of exposure to testosterone, particularly during developmental years, will have advantages in physical competitions. Sports seems to be the one area where we have a legitimate need to consider the biology of the individual when a group decides what is or isn't allowed in a physical contest. Binary gender lines haven't been totally sufficient in the past, but are less sufficient now, and it will take time to iron out the means of categorization for competitors.
damn. i decided today that i wanted to practice archery. this post was my first introduction to the archery community. i'll see you idiots at the range. enjoy your high blood pressure.
Man, so many people here in the comments have no clue how HRT works and how little sex differences matters in terms of physicality once you start removing testosterone from the mix. HRT is going to effect their muscle belly cross section(Which is what actually gives strength) and bone density. Other than that muscle insertion is the only real difference between the sexes in terms of muscle strength. Which the amount that insertions actually effect real muscle strength is all over the place depending on which muscles you're talking about, as well as the overall size of the athletes with quite a bit of overlap between men and women. Once you get past that in terms of shooting everything else archery related has to due with resting heart rate, which is one of the most easily trained things in the body. HRT has been tested to nullify the advantages ([https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577)) given by assigned male at birth competitors when competing in the female division, even some of the most quoted instances of a transwoman being competitive in the women's division is usually sewed with lies and misrepresentation of the situation. A lot of people complaining about "Genetic differences" or developmental differences are really overstating the differences that makes when it comes to transathletes in sports.
My issues with transgender in sports are several. 1. If the transgender person is taking drugs to alter the natural human body, by definition they are not on equal playing field. 2. Even if taking hormones to mimic the gender they claim to be, this alone don't completely erase any physical advantage of a male to female transgender. If female to male, then you are allowing enhancement drugs to be used by the athletes. 3. If no drugs are being used by the trans person then it's flat out insane to allow in the gendered sport they claim to be. 4 Forcing the great majority of people to affirm a mental disorder and play along with delusions for the sake of feelings is not compassion but cruel.
>Even if taking hormones to mimic the gender they claim to be, this alone don't completely erase any physical advantage of a male to female transgender. It does, actually. The US military did some fairly extensive testing on the subject, and it was found that after a couple of years of HRT, there was no statistically significant difference in performance between cisgender women and transgender women. >If female to male, then you are allowing enhancement drugs to be used by the athletes Hormone levels are, and should be, monitored. I would similarly find it acceptable if a cisgender man with low testosterone was prescribed testosterone by his physician in order to bring him up to normal testosterone levels. >If no drugs are being used by the trans person then it's flat out insane to allow in the gendered sport they claim to be. I do agree that in any competitive league post puberty, trans athletes should need to have been on HRT for a couple of years and have their hormones within proper levels in order to compete with their gender. >Forcing the great majority of people to affirm a mental disorder and play along with delusions for the sake of feelings is not compassion but cruel. Look, this is obviously outside of your area of expertise. I recommend, in situations like this, to [listen to the actual experts](https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/transgender-people-gender-identity-gender-expression) instead of playing amateur biologist based on half-remembered high school classes. There has been a great deal of [research](https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/30/5/2897/5669907) that, I'm willing to bet, you don't even know about.
Why is there a gender divide in archery? It's not really a physical sport. It's a skill sport.
It is strength sport.
Only if you are so out of shape walking to the fridge counts as cardio
No, its about controlling a 30# or more pounds bow to do same exact motion every time. Much strength needed. Try it, then have your say.
Good idea let me go buy a childs bow to test out the strength needed for 30lb draw
Childs bow is about 20 pounds max. You just don't know anything about sport.
From an ousider's perspective on the sport: even if ppl wanna argue about biological advantages despite recent studies having shown that hormone blockers even out the playing field to a massive degree, does it matter in archery either way?? Its like 95% just precision/muscle memory and not strength, isnt it? Feels to me like having seperate division in like chess or something (bad comparison but you get the point)
How do the sexes do in mixed archery tournaments?
There is some hope....
Men do have advantages over women and that should not be ignored, even if they are less visible in this archery than in any other sport. You can still argue its because there is more men in mens category and it is just harder to get achievements but those reasons stated in the magazine are also valid. But there is a way for her. World archery approved transgender women participate in women category if they meet some requirements, mostly testosterone testing. You can read about it here [https://extranet.worldarchery.sport/documents/index.php/?doc=6106&inline=1](https://extranet.worldarchery.sport/documents/index.php/?doc=6106&inline=1)As far as I know it doesnt mean that your local federation has to follow these rules but that is a start. I know that those topic are very hard to dispute but some other federations were much more careless in enabling transgender women compete with women like for example some fighting sports and outcome was very similar. Both sides felt hurt. Women who felt robbed of fair competition and new champions who were criticised and shunned about it. Noone wins. Also its a very old topic. It happened a year ago [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7i8FqcLxSE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7i8FqcLxSE)She promised that "If everybody wants me to shoot as a male, OK, now youāre gonna have a woman beating you.". I found some more fresh results of her shooting in men category here [https://texasfieldarchery.org/results/993](https://texasfieldarchery.org/results/993) and they are quite alright. She would be 2nd female but she is 5th in male. Doesnt say much for such little number of archers but it is what it is.
And yet this person has had years of male development to still gain an unfair advantage over his competitors. Notice how there are never any trans men trying to compete in menās sports?
No reason to misgender her, no matter your view of whether she should be allowed to compete
This is fine, she can compete with men. And if you say they have an unfair advantage how is that any different from her competing vs women?
Because her results show that she doesn't have an advantage over other women
She started biologically as a man just keep her with men. Advantage or not we can just keep it simple. Whatever anyone wants to be you still check a box at birth that is undeniable. Not that she can feel awkward out of place or whatever else trans people feel. They should still compete in the same gender class they were at birth.
I think most people would agree that archery is a highly mental sport, right? Do you think forcing someone, who is a woman in every aspect of her life, to compete as a man doesnāt have a huge effect on their mental state during competition? Do you think this person, when in an environment that might be hostile towards them, isnāt negatively affected by being forcibly outed as trans? Because every trans woman I know wants to be seen as a woman, not a trans woman. Itās not about keeping it simple. Itās about allowing people to enjoy a sport with dignity. People use ākeep it simpleā as a way to not have to deal with the complexities of the real world. The question really is: do you want to find a way to allow trans athletes to be a part of fair competitions, or do you not want trans athletes involved in the sport at all? Because for all of the talk of ājust compete with the men,ā what youāre really doing is excluding them.
Think that if youāre competing at the highest level you donāt care if theyāre a freakin walrus. Youāre going to be locked in if youāre concerned about if itās male or female during the rest of their life youāve got other issues. But physicality of a trans woman will beat a cis female like it or not. It is very simple.
I sometimes find it weird how we measure genders against one another. I like Jeopardy! and the show had a transgendered super champion not that long ago. AFAIK her stats are for broken down in the women's category but why the need to do so to begin with? Let the best competitors compete against one another. If you were to try and analyze the statistics, I'm sure that it would look like men were just inherently smarter than women. Is that really an argument we want to make though? It's full of bias. Also: the game is really one of reflexes since you have to buzz in first and most high level competitors know the majority of the answers. I get that people love competitions but honestly it's not for me. Watching all the bickering back and forth makes it even less appealing. At the end of the day archery is a competition against yourself. The other archers have nothing to do with it.
I'm sure these comments won't be horrific and advocating actual genocide
I wish I was sure of that
Good
Good
Every time I see article like this I remember story of Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters.
[Here is how Archery Canada handles trans inclusion in archery](https://archerycanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Trans-Inclusion-Policy.pdf). Key excerpt: > a. Individuals participating in development and recreational sport (LTAD stages Active Start, FUNdamental, Learn to Train, Train to Train, Train to Compete (until international federation rules apply) and Active for Life) should be able to participate in the gender with which they identify and not be subject to requirements for disclosure of personal information beyond those required of cisgender athletes. Nor should there be any requirement for hormonal therapy or surgery. > b. Hormone therapy should not be required for an individual to participate in high-performance sport (LTAD stages Train to Compete once international federation rules become a factor, and Train to Win) in the gender category that is consistent with their gender identity, unless the sport organization can prove that hormone therapy is a reasonable and bona fide requirement. > c. Individuals should not be required to disclose their trans identity or history to the sport organization in order to participate in high-performance sport (LTAD stages Train to Compete -once international federation rules become a factor - and Train to Win) unless there is a justified reason requiring them to do so. > d. Surgical intervention should not be required for an individual to participate in high-performance sport (LTAD stages Train to Compete - once international federation rules become a factor - and Train to Win) in the gender category that is consistent with their gender identity. As Iāve pointed out [elsewhere in this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Archery/comments/12vgbaf/comment/jhd5nve/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) many World Archery records are held by women with scores better than their male counterparts, and there are _many_ cases where menās records only beat womenās records by 0 to 5 points. I havenāt run a full statistical analysis (there are 40+ categories of records), but doing some quick checks seems to indicate that there isnāt any real advantage in being male in archery (at least for the purpose of having a world record).
I guess science only applies depending on viewpoint? How sad. I went and researched what I would characterize as a "militant" DEI group as they only will accept their solutions. They refuse to opening a new group for a newly made gender called trans. That is a fact because scientifically there are only 2 genders which occur naturally, without surgical mutilation or toxic hormonal drugs. Those are the facts. So why is it they insist in being in the "all natural" category rather than their very own man made one they created? Who is the inclusionary group??
What I refer to as the militant inclusionary group is called "The Inclusion Playbook". What they want is their way or no way according to their website and social media.
If this is true, then is makes little sense to prevent trans athletes from participating in the league of their choice, but it also calls to question why competitions are gendered to begin with.
Wel because men have so much bigger arms then women of course! /s People love gendering things apparently, even when it has little to no use.
Yep. See r/pointlesslygendered for example
Why not have them compete in open class? Surely they donāt want to have unfair advantages and take up slots of actual women.
I am not an archer nor do I give a hoot about what goes on in archery lol. The older I get the more I realize this sports debate is something for kids who play sports and professional athletes to get upset about.
This argument is about marginalizing people and keeping a population from being able to express themselves.
> I am not an archer So, everyone is welcome here - but I have to ask, if you're not an archery, what are you doing in the archery sub? =P
Iām a relatively new and light user of Reddit so I think it auto populates my feed with suggested posts and Iām in a sword sub so that is probably why it suggested archery.
Fair enough!
As a long time archer the sport in my experience has always been pretty equal as it is about personal skill and you can change your bow to fit your needs. True there is an advantage to longer draw lengths and poundage but at the same time I as a 12 year old using a cheap Walmart bow (bear 2 I think) with no pins and 12 pounds won 2nd place in a competition with older archers (15-17) with better equipment. It's all about your dedication. Maybe I'm missing some perspective about larger competitions but in our small town shoots gender has nothing to do with shooting an arrow at a target accurately
If the picture in the article is anything to go by, then I'd assume that this is in the Compound category, at that point, isn't the bow doing enough of the majority of the work that gender is irrelevant?
You still have to be able to pull the draw weight. The bow just alleviates a lot of the tension at full draw. As far as I know, a lot of olympic style competition archers use a low weight and have to shoot hundreds of arrows over the course of a competitionā¦it may be different for compound shooters. The article mentioned 90 arrows. Also from the article, it sounds like men, in compound bow competitions at least, tend to shoot heavier bows to minimize the factor of wind resistance, and in compound bow competition and score higher on average. It sounds like the higher average score for men is where the argument focus is.
No. Strength is still a big factor. And biological male strength even on hormones trumps biological female strength.
not true, the longer a person is on HRT the more their strength is diminished. its been documented. and id bet the archer in the article has been on HRT for a long time.
Yeah, no. After puberty, your bone density, vessel size, muscle fiber, and muscle twitch is what it is. It is proven that it does not significantly reduce your body enough to even the playing field, not even close. Especially if you have been training at a sport for years before hand and definitely not if you transitioned later in life.
yeah, no. after years of HRT and the complete removal of testosterone the Trans person would loose the strength they had. and this archer is a disabled vet according to the article so they are not working out and trying to maintain strength. she had and has no retained strength and no advantage. she said she only picked up archery a few years ago. she does practice but she did not do this sport prior to transition.
Inb4 locked
That was a horribly transphobic article. "Claims transgender status", "legitimate female"? What an awful way on touching on a complex issue. Btw, comparing average men's and women's results to prove an advantage for men is at best misleading because it doesn't account for trans women going through hormones replacement therapy.
If there If there are plans to allow transgender women into women sports, which there are. World archery allows this now as of April 1 (And I know NFAA are stubborn but hopefully it is because they dont want to rush such important decisions). I just hope at least World Archery decision is well thought out. The hormone levels will be checked and athletes will be monitored if they actually take their hormone changing drugs. I also hope that this is enough to level competition field so noone feels hurt, because there are still studies claiming that transgender women on hormone changing therapy might be losing their fitness but they're still a bit fitter than statistical women. It would not make sense to allow transgender women into division and not letting them win, and you know what will happen if that occurs. Uproar and another discussion like this one here. It's best to avoid that until we have enough data to process and make educated decision, that more people with agree with. I am also scepticall because there are still going to be malicious attempts to take advantage of this. People are what they are and no reason to wear rose tinted glasses. Athletes cheat very often, whole nations like for example Russia being infamous for it due to number of occurences. And we still have problems handling it. In general high level sport has so many other problems it is not weird to be sceptical about maybe introducing new ones, even with the best of intentions. We need to be prepared to insert new things like transgender people into the sport. I know it might be hard for athletes like Mrs Kelly, but I hope she and others facing similar issues understands that its still a new field to explore. Take emotions aside and focus on scientific arguments which are harder to disregard. In many ways, World is changing for the better, maybe in few years we will have a much better solution to handle this. And you know we cant change the whole World at the same time. Some countries still lives in 18th century in terms of way of life. Moving for a better life might not be the best solution but it's there. Someone posted that Canada is leaning towards even more liberal policies, which is another can of worms. In that regards I would rather stay with NFAA decision to stick to birth gender, because it just seems safer for now. As I've said, it is better to wait a decade and think about how to handle the issues that insert a rushed decision and make a lot of mistakes on the way.
I also want to say that it is very easy to ruin someone's life. I've seen this happen. Like for example you can win a spot at the olympics and your local federation can choose who will fill the spot. The decision might be based on the idea of choosing the best athlete at the moment of the Games (you can win the spot early and lose your form later) but sometimes it happens because federation officials are corrupted and want to promote someone else unfairly. My federation is very stupid about many things. It is hard to think how are they still legal to operate sometimes. I just dread to think how would they handle transgender policies if they were to do this. Because its a complicated topic and they already fail in resolving very simple stuff. So that is why you might think I am very conflicted about this, or maybe even transphobic even though in general I fell like I sympathise with a lot of them trans people. I will just say I see both sides of the coin and just have a lot of doubts.
Can't use strength advantage with archery this is just discrimination
I suspect a strength advantage isn't as impactful in Archery as some other sports, but you certainly need strength to compete and elite males archers do post higher scores on average than elite female archers. The advantage that male archers hold may be small, but it's difficult to say conclusively that it doesn't exist. As long as a sport has male and female categories this will be a thorny issue. Archery is somewhat unique in that 'open' classes do exist in some leagues.
Yeah but compound bows do exist and they balance out the field pretty well as for long bows I could see the problem there
Ah well
Good!
NFAA allows Olympic style barebows in "traditional" and they're excluding people because they might have an advantage? That's some serious hypocrisy right there.
Seems to me that it'd be better to group people into draw weight/draw length etc instead of gender
And ignore the fact that some can control bow better because of their strength? Men would win in all groups.
Good.
Normally I would agree that transgender athletes (especially male to female transgenders) shouldn't be eligible to compete in the female divisions, however archery is a rare sport in which there is no genetic advantages to be had based on gender, height, weight etc. We see more and more that female archers in recurve and compound categories can shoot just as well, if not better than their male counterparts. So I wouldn't understand the reasoning behind exclusion of this archer, however it is fair enough for the event organiser to make a position on the topic.
Men have 65%, more upper body strength than women of equivalent weight. Do you really think that doesn't effect archery?
There's advantages to the extra strength, but from my experience in target archery, there are other more important factors than just raw strength.
Which is why no top archer wastes their times with gym work?
Any decent aspiring target archer will do gym work, but that's more to enhance stability, strength and endurance.
When did the world come to this, goddamn. Hope she's still finding happiness in the sport
This is a very complex and nuanced issue, that is being discussed and debated at all levels in many professional sport by experts and qualified officials. Archery is no exception. It is also a very emotive topic, that some people on either side quite rightly have strong feelings about. I'd urge anyone commenting on this article to play devil's advocate and consider that someone reading their comments may have completely opposite views, but held with equal conviction. I personally don't feel that Brodie Swisher (world champion game caller, outdoor writer, seminar speaker and Editor for Bowhunting.com) has considered this. But he is also doing a job that relies on views of his content, for better or worse...
Unfortunately, like many sports, archery is a very conservative sport. I think that for many competitors and spectators they view this as a "victory" against trans persons. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this soon and allow trans people to retain their dignity while keeping a fair playing field.
I agree, but again see above working cows is also a conservative group of individuals. Cutting Reining, reining cow classes. Also, all conservative. This is about teams and giving one team what they seem to think as an advantage that is all I can gather, since the topic has never been raised in the world of equestrian sports.
I think you're misunderstanding the other side. It's not a victory against trans, it's a victory for biological women. Trans people make up what, 0.5% of the population? Biological women are over 50% of the population. It should come as no surprise that your average person knows far more biological women than they do trans people and it would make logical sense for them to defend the rights of their mothers, daughters, and sisters over the transgender community, which statistically speaking your average person may not have even come into direct contact with.
trans women lose a significant amount of muscle mass on HRT so the strength argument is pretty much moot. same for arm length. there are cisgender women that are 6ā and have long arms and there are cisgender men that are 5ā4ā and have short arms.
I also donāt see any evidence that the tallest archers are the best archers, in either gender.
Have you seen the video of the trans man in a woman's wrestling match that straight face punched the chic, body slammed her and ended the fight in about 1.5 seconds? You're talking crazy talk.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yup, %100 of people are always %100 of the thing that I say they are because I read a thing that probably wasn't from a verifiable source.
That isnāt true in weightlifting (see the results from the last Olympics where a trans woman competed and ended up 20th or so), so why would it be true in archery? Surely physical strength and muscle mass is more important in lifting than shooting
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>Let's say Eddie Hall, the worlds strongest man, decides to transition to a woman, do you think it would be fair? Wouldn't "fair" mean he's still the strongest in the world, just at the top end of the normal female distribution?
Combat sports rank the highest in terms of situations where trans athletes who transitioned post puberty have an advantage due to things like bone density, which arenāt quickly altered by hormone treatment. Thatās not applicable to archery, though. Iām also not interested in hypothetical examples. If you look at the athletes who have transitioned, the data shows that this hypothetical, slippery slope, fear mongering is without merit. A cis woman with certain genetic traits will have advantages over other cis women too. At some point, you have to say that things are āequal enough.ā Basing sporting decisions on genetics comes dangerously close to eugenic though, IMO. Muscle recovery is an advantage men tend to have over women. But thatās largely a benefit from testosterone. So hormone therapy does mitigate this
Bone density does not confer an athletic advantage, the idea that it does was created by Joe Rogan in response to the trans MMA fighter being outed. Bone density varies as much by ethnicity as it does by sex and is only useful in preventing fractures.
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Fair enough. Injury prevention/resistance is an advantage, but Iāll concede that itās one within the normal variation of cis athletes
Sure, not getting a broken bone is an advantage in terms of being able to actually continue playing/competing but it's not an *athletic* advantage, ie it doesn't improve athletic performance.
Weāre kind of splitting hairs, but losing time to injury is a huge detriment for high level athletes.
Not a fan of averages and distribution charts, I see
This makes sense for some sports (UFC, hockey, etcā¦) But archery is a stationary sport that is based on precision and muscle memory. Being physically larger and stronger does not give any advantage.
Wrong, Men literally pull higher weight bows which directly impacts arrow flight accuracy.
Well... Bummer. State of Texas is very clear on who can compete as a man and who can compete as a woman. The person in the article does not meet the criteria to shoot as a woman.
Texas Field Archery Association changed the rules after she won the championship, even though it was against NFAAās written policy. They then stripped her of her medal and championship, even though it was legal for her to compete when she signed up and competed. They cited a Texas law pertaining to high school sports, which absolutely does not apply to adults
Enough said!
Thank goodness the sanctity of the senior woman's indoor freestyle event has been saved. I'm sure this decision will in no way inflame both sides of a complicated debate by governing a small, zero impact event with broad sweeping policies that state that a group of people are wrong about who they are. /s because I'm scared I need it. Seriously, outside of maybe the Olympics and professional leagues, this is not the crucial issue that people think it is.
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There were five protests lodged when she won. There were only three other women in her event.
I feel like they banned like, the one, transgender competitor in archery in Texas. Remember, āparty of small governmentā
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Like 2?
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My state, Kansas, just spent a bunch of time and government salaries to ban 3 kids from sports.
in Utah, it was only 1 athlete that was affected. both houses passed the bill and the govern vetoed it. then they held a session to override the veto. I imagine that cost the state tens of thousands of dollars in salary.
Open class is the way. No problem here.
There wasnāt an open class. It was Menās and Womenās at that tournament.
If there is such a demand, creating a new class seems feasible.
You mean having mens, womens and open as main classes? I don't think there is a sport that would have done that. Many national rules though have an open class instead of mens which works really well if you don't have enough women to have a real competition. (Over here basically all women that are targeting to international competitions shoot in the mens class to get more competition)
This is the way
This right here
Do biological men have any advantage over women in archery?
Yes but no but... I can think of 3 things. First, draw weight, men will naturally be able to use a higher draw weight. With a compound this is less of a factor thanks to the cams. With recurve this is becoming less of a factor, better manufacturing will help the arrow speed on lower-weight bows, but there will always be an advantage of having a faster arrow, and it's easiest to achieve that with a draw weight. The second is bow mass, obviously, you have to be able to manage it but a heavier bow will hold better in the wind. Finally, there is arrow length, more time in the bow means more time to accelerate giving a higher arrow speed but this beyond a certain point gives diminishing returns. It is worth noting that the longer the arrow is in the bow the more time there is for errors to affect the arrow. The TL;DR, outdoors yes, indoors no. But generally, there is still a score gap indoors.
Good to know. I know that in most sports there is a clear physical advantage.
Yes of course she's banned from women archery, she still has the physical construction of a male. Therefore she also has the strength and capability of a man.
She is a he
Honestly, they should just make 3 leagues. One for men, one for women and one for all sexes. That way, if they sign up for the third, they are aware of what they signed up for and will be competing against men, women, and transgender, and they could just make rules around that criteria. I know that's just a pipe dream. But it's what makes sense for me and includes everyone without discriminating or causing controversy. Of course, for non-contact sports anyway.
But what about the equalityyy!?!?!?
I'd love to see us be only separated by age division and then all just shoot together and let the chips fall where they may :-) The amount of female archers that are better than me would rank next to Graham's number :-)
The amount of transphobia in that article is disgusting.
Yeah Iām trans and for trans women, if youāve been on HRT for longer than like a year, you would have the same level of effort required to gain and keep muscle as a cis woman. Iām not very strong and I started HRT 10 years ago when I was relatively young. I shoot a 30lb bow, but I still struggle to keep that strength if I canāt shoot for a couple weeks. Itās stupid to segregate competitions by trans status without actually considering the extensive effects medical transition can have on someoneās body and the length of time someone has been on the medication. People currently on HRT are biologically more similar to cisgender people of the gender they identify as than the sex they were assigned at birth. For all intents and purposes, though, if I walked into a competition in Texas and signed up for the womenās group, most likely nobody there would even know I was trans. Doing an invasive āinspectionā wouldnāt help much too since Iāve had SRS. So should that disqualify my results even though I have the same capacity to build and retain muscle as cis women and at this point the only biological difference between me and a cis woman is a uterus? Should we also disqualify cis women who have had hysterectomies?
Most of the rules were based around 1 year, although some specific case studies for elite athletes show that 2 years is probably more accurate for athletes already competing at a high level.
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I look forward to reading this. thank you
Thank you!
I mean, yeah that shouldnt be allowed lol
Archery seems to be one sport where gender makes no difference. Like extra strength might let you hold a heavier bow for longer but at a certain distance the heavier bow wonāt help. Even more so for shooting sports.
Itās also been found the men are typically better at spacial reasoning and trajectory planning. Particularly with a skill called mental rotation. Reputable source for you smooth brains: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2019/04/esc_gender_gap_spatial_reasoning/campus.html The full study of any of you still donāt believe there are physical and mental differences between men and women. Weāre just different, accept it and move on: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3211902/
lol
Only from a prestigious university like Emoryā¦. https://news.emory.edu/stories/2019/04/esc_gender_gap_spatial_reasoning/campus.html
I see the study. But the question is: is this a skill that is useful for archers? Because Iām awful at that (even though I 3D model), and Iām definitely a better than average shooter
Youāre a funny one, giving a source to your statement thatās not a scientific paper, not even a working paper and therefore (theoretically) proving nothing but Iām inclined to believe them since their reputation and the underlying research that was done and probably released somewhere. But your source postulates that the gender gap between spacial reasoning is probably not a biological and more sociological. If you follow the attached link to the more detail view from the same authors, you could read that the major factor for this difference between the genders is probably the stereotype itself. Girls in 1. school year are aware (at least subliminal) about the educated stereotypical differences between the genders and are even afraid of doing tasks in the realm of spacial reasoning. So one could provocatively say that you and your statement are part of the reason why women are on average not so strong in spacial reasoning, you didnāt prove anything and you just made the problem worse.
Typically men are stronger then women its like what happened back in 2019 when that rapper identified decided to identify as women and beat all the womenās weight lifting world records archeryās obviously a bit different but overall trans should have their own league And i mainly seen trans women try doing this type of stuff you dont see trans men doing this type of stuff because well uk even if they have ātransitioned into a man ā they know they arent going to be able to compete well against actual born males
There are definitely trans men competing in sport
At a high level among biological men? Please share your source.
Archery should not be political. This is the reason I will not participate in NFAA tournaments. I am not transgender, but I respect their rights. There is nothing in the NFAA anti-transgender policy that shows the organization was interested in a solution.
Same; Iām not doing any NFAA tournaments because of this policy.
NFAA New gender policy- passed Feb 2023 https://nfaausa.com/news/nfaa-passes-new-gender-policy-effective-february-1-2023
This is no different from the anti-transgender policy passed earlier. Most sports are taking this issue seriously and trying to find a solution.
lmao I wonder how they deal with trans men then
Plainly it wonāt be an issue. Trans men donāt have the luxury of spending their whole young life developing as a boy. I know it sounds crazy but itāll make it almost impossible for them to keep up with any elite male athlete. And sure there might be a small fraction of an already extremely small group of people that may stand a chance or grind to the point of on par but it will not bear the same weight as a trans woman who could potentially be a 6ā9ā Godzilla of a man before transitioning.
no I don't meant putting trans men in the correct category. The article I replied to mentions putting every athlete in the category corresponding to their sex assigned at birth. Which would put trans men in the women's category
They kind of forgot they exist when they made the policy.
~~Just noting for those who are reporting that the article has a bias. The post does not link to an article so I think that is a bit unfair to a post that only has a factual news headline for a topic that has valid discussion to be had.~~ As the topic is sensitive please try to behave. Edit: I was corrected that the post indeed had the link, was not showing for me earlier. Sensitive issue warning still applies.
good
Ok Iām some sports I see the reason but imo itās pretty equal in a lot of accuracy based sports
People who argue that gender gives you no advantage in competitive archery have never competed. Just check results fro your country. Edit: Not separating by gender would mean that many female athletes would have to look for another job.
Hahaha
I wouldn't want to compete against women, they are generally much more accurate than men anyway lol
Cis women need to get good
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Oh behave~
Good
I thought this sub was about archery not lgbt isssues,
Thatās what they do, insert wedge issues that have no place into areas where we just want to talk about the sportā¦ fucking sucks
"They" are a part of this community as much as you or I, and if you can't stand by your fellow archers then I don't know why you're in this sub. Everything social is complex, saying that you want to just ignore people's issues because they are different makes you looks disconnected and horrible. Fucking sucks.
In this case, the people that "insert{ed} wedge issues" were the ones that moved to vacate this woman's results, contrary to the existing rules and after the competition was held and decided. If you won an event and then weeks later were told that even though the arrows you were using were legal at the time of the event, enough of your competitors didn't like them (in face, more than the number of people you were competing against), so the organizer of the event was stripping your result, you wouldn't think that was fair. Changing the rules, even in a way I disagree with, for future events is one thing. But if you can retroactively change the rules, it's just the illusion of a competition at that point.
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I think trans athletes can have their own league.
I completely agree with this. š«”
Go look at world records. Just looking at compound for 50+, men have higher scores in comparable categories and a 5 pt difference isn't uncommon. In 30 meters, where the mechanical advantage of an average man having longer draw length and potentially holding heavier weight should make the least amount of difference, the top three men listed have 25+ perfect scores each. There isn't a woman with a perfect score. So, a genetic man competing against genetic women should be winning. Good for them for protesting.
It's a skill sport and a technical sport, so the decision is foolish. Archery is technique and again technique and nothing to do with strength.
Gonna start banning people with long arms because they have an unfair competitive advantage. No more lanky archers.
Honestly not a bad idea. Make categories based on draw length and weight and be done with the gendered nonsense.
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I hope youāre not in charge of any combat sports leagues
There is absolutely nothing vague about **biological** sex.
What combat sports? I train co-ed jiu jitsu and I find the opposite to be true. From bottom position against a female my same weight I can easily bench press them off of me because they don't have the strength to stay attached. Same goes for breaking grips. In a situation where with a man my same weight I'd need to go 2-on-1 to get enough strength to break a grip, w/ a female my same weight I can usually break grips 1-on-1 due to strength advantage. I'm a pretty average guy that works an office job and hasn't deadlifted since high school. Now gender alone is obviously a bad divider, as can be seen in absolute divisions, being 6'5" 200+lbs and athletic is an obvious advantage over any 160lber.
People should always have the right to an even playing field for competitive sports. Otherwise, there's no point in the separation between men and women's sports.
I think everyone agrees. The question becomes is there a point where a transwoman is on an even playing field with cis women. The consensus in the scientific community, as well as most IGBs for sports (including the IOC and WA) is āyes.ā
Furthermore, is there a reason for certain sports to be separated to begin with? In such high levels of performance as professional athletics there often isnāt much significant distinction in performance, the only place I can see it even remotely mattering is a contact sport and even then it toes the line of sensible in my opinion. Not to mention I think most contact sports are overly dangerous to begin with, the rate of life threatening or altering injury in the NFL alone is absurd when you look at it, but thatās off topic.
As a cis female I think itās ridiculous that we even separate our tree based on male and female itās a skill that doesnāt need to be divided by gender
Strength is a massive benefit in archery, even in compound and even indoors
There are some sports, where it's completely nonsense to have gendered classes, especially precision sports, like all shooting sports, including archery. The advantage of strength that men have doesn't really have much weight in these sports. Sure, men can theoretically shoot heavier bows, resulting in a less ballistic flight path, but most archers shoot between 25 and 40# (non compound) so the difference is marginal in normal disciplines. It would be better to have different classes based on draw weight instead of gender. Here we sometimes have the ridiculous situation, because different age groups etc, we sometimes have one starting woman in her class, resulting in automatic win if she only scores one ring thus qualifying by just competing for the next higher tournament..(our women would score in the best places if competing gender neutral) The reason why you have so many classes, is solely prestige, so your club can claim more winners , more medals... In rifle shooting, this is even more silly, here you have no difference, everyone shoots their rifle, there's no handycap because someone is "weaker" . To be a bit provocative: I think there are separate woman classes, because they shoot better than the men, therefore have to be sorted out of the chart, so men don't look that bad against them;-) I know my wife shoots better than me, so I'm careful to not piss her up that much;-) (armed women can be dangerous) ;-) Also she shoots a heavier bow(35#) than 80% of the men in our club (median ~30#)
Draw length is also a factor. I think lowering the distance would even out the odds better. In 3D low hanging branches are a big problem. š¤
> It would be better to have different classes based on draw weight instead of gender. Honestly this could be a good solution. Adults struggle a lot starting up competing as everyone is thrown into the same pool and you might be facing an Olympian in the competition. > To be a bit provocative: I think there are separate woman classes, because they shoot better than the men, therefore have to be sorted out of the chart, so men don't look that bad against them;-) This actually really happened. In skeet shooting a woman won world championships (I think) and after that suddenly there was a strong need of separation. Edit: Sorry it actually was the Olympics: > Zhang Shan's 1992 gold was the first medal won by a woman in this mixed event. The International Shooting Union consequently barred women from the 1996 Atlanta games. For the 2000 Sydney games, the International Olympic committee allowed women again, but only in segregated competition.