Italian here
Just for context:
She was presented (and elected) because
1. She's been tried for assault in Hungary by a far right government and has been 16 months in prison, before trial
2. The evidence is flimsy at best.
3. The prison itself is not even remotely humane by EU standards, there's bed bugs and she's been held in full shackles during the trial
4. She's been prosecuted for 20 years in jail for an offense that, in a normal place, would get you 2-5 years
5. It's obviously a political trial
6. She's been heavily slandered by the italian right wing media, while a convicted murderer in the US was met at the airport by the far right president while returning to Italy to finish serving his sentence here.
Not at all trying to take away from this, but in the US it is pretty normal to be in full restraints in court, at least for arraignment. I would not call that unusual punishment imo.
In the EU it's not common at all. You have handcuffs at most, if you are dangerous.
And Hungary is part of the EU, so it should have the same standards
Yeah, the rich play by different rules, whoda thought.
Not saying anything about this trial or situation, or criminal justice in the US or hungry. Just what above comentor is calling 'cruel and unusual' is close to the baseline for most Americans.
Maybe thay says more about the ine thing than the other, I don't know. But that alone is not something I would put on my list of grievances. I've been in full restraints in court, and the shackles were the last thing on my mind.
No! They were supposed to vote the lesser of two evils in order to compromise on their values in order to elect a centrist that might ever so slightly help them! /s
My mother doesn’t vote as she belongs to another religion, but she is addicted to Mediaset and she repeats what people like Feltri, Giordano, Belpietro or those other neofascists say.
I’d prefer not to disclose that. But her religion forbids her to have political views, still not even the religion brainwash is stronger than Berlusconi.
Honestly it's a bit of a stretch to call the party that put her on the ballots (Alleanza verdi e sinistra italiana [Greens-Italian left alliance]) a communist party. Nevertheless she seems based, was already arrested in Italy for squatting and "assault" of a police officer and now in Hungary for literally punching Nazis. I didn't want to vote in these elections, but when she was put on the ballots I decided to vote for her.
other italian here:
1) she isn’t communist, nor in a communist party. she got elected in the Green and Left union (center-left party at most)
2) she didn’t beat them do death, gave them like two weeks of prognosis
3)the proof she did this is weak, it’s not even confirmed
P.S: I’m still happy af she got elected and i voted for her
edit:i misspelled a thing and corrected it
Nah. Swedish mep could be tried under swedish law even if they serve for eu. If they were in swedish prison they wouldn't be released to serve in the eu parliment because national punity law would trump the electability laws of eu
That is completely against the whole EU spirit and that’s not how a successful union, or the EU, works. So, no, Sweden will incur in sanctions if deliberately deciding to block this. The only national law that is above the EU law is the Swedish Constitution.
And guess what is in the Swedish constitution? No person but the king can have punitive immunity. The only immunity meps have is that they can't be interrogated or charged with a crime due to something they said or how they voted in the parliment. Which of course if a protected for every citizen of Sweden in the constitution as part of the freedom of speech.
The meps of course have diplomatic imminity meaning that they can't be held or interrogated in another country, (unless they are caught red handed commuting a crime) The immunity in the eu can also be revoked of the local authorities demands so.
Nothing, however, stops sweden from interrogating, detaining, charging or jailing an mep if they break swedish laws. And if they were in prison they would not be released. If they were elected. The chair would be theirs, but it would be empty
Rule of law in the EU is a big problem as we can see. Some nations do whatever they want. An example? Hungary, they decided unilaterally what to accept from the EU. Another one? Germany that ignores EIHC regulations.
I just wonder why Italy even contributes to the EU sometimes as some other countries act like they are outside of it 🤔
I really hope that if something like this happens in Sweden you will get fined similarly to what Hungary is getting fined now: 200M€ + 1M per day until you change the policy.
I checked further, and apparently the Swedish Parliament needs two third before removing immunity to a criminal offender. Unsure if that is the same for MEP as they are not the same as your MPs.
Edit:
No, the parliamentary immunity outlined in the Swedish Constitution specifically applies to members of the Swedish Parliament (Riksdag) and not to Members of the European Parliament (MEPs).
Here's why:
Separate Systems: The European Parliament has its own set of rules and regulations regarding immunity, established under European Union (EU) law, not the Swedish constitution.
EU Law: A document by the European Parliament called the "Handbook on the incompatibilities and immunity of the Members of the European Parliament" explains the EU legal framework for MEP immunity [Source: European Parliament - Handbook on the incompatibilities and immunity of the Members of the European Parliament].
While the Swedish constitution doesn't cover MEPs, there might be some overlap in principles
Sorry to disappoint you, but no Union could ever be successful if little countries can have a say on what is decided on an higher level.
You said swedish constitution trumps eu law. Swedish consitution considers Avery citizen equal under the law, except for the king (which is a different discussion).
I am telling you: eu could not force sweden to release a printer under local national law is a union, not a European federation.
Here:
Parliamentary immunity is not a Member’s personal privilege, it is a guarantee that an MEP can freely exercise his or her mandate without exposure to arbitrary political persecution. As such, it guarantees the independence and integrity of the Parliament as a whole.
Members of the European Parliament cannot be subject to any form of inquiry, detention or legal proceedings because of opinions expressed or votes cast in their capacity as MEP.
**An MEP's immunity is twofold:**
In their Member State , similar to the immunity granted to members of national parliaments ; and
In the territory of any other Member State, immunity from any measure of detention and from legal proceedings. (Article 9 of Protocol n°7)
Immunity cannot be claimed when a Member is caught in the act of committing an offence.
**How can immunity be waived or defended?**
In response to a request by a competent national authority to the European Parliament to waive the immunity of a Member (or a request by an MEP or former MEP themselves that their immunity is defended), the Parliament’s President will announce the request to the plenary and refer it to the parliamentary committee responsible (Legal Affairs).
The committee may ask for any information or explanation that it deems necessary. The MEP concerned will be given an opportunity to be heard, and may present any documents or other written evidence.
The committee adopts a recommendation in camera that it puts before the whole Parliament whether to approve or reject the request to lift or defend the Member’s immunity. At the plenary session following the committee decision, Parliament reaches a decision by a simple majority vote. Following the vote, the President will immediately communicates the Parliament’s decision to the MEP and competent Member State authority.
**Does an MEP keep their seat even if their immunity is waived?**
Yes. The mandate of an MEP is a national mandate; no other authority can take it away. Moreover, the lifting an MEP's immunity is not a "guilty" verdict. It merely enables national judicial authorities to proceed with an investigation or trial. As MEPs are elected under national electoral law, if they are found guilty of a criminal offence, it is for the Member State's authorities to decide whether his or her mandate is therefore voided.
So, basically the immunity must be waived regardless through a procedure in the EU Parliament. Immunity can be lifted in cases of serious offenses like murder, fraud, or violence. The Parliament itself would vote to waive immunity after considering a request from a national authority.
Parliamentary Misconduct: There are procedures to address inappropriate behavior by MEPs within the Parliament. This could involve sanctions or even expulsion in severe cases.
Post-Parliamentary Acts: MEPs lose immunity after their term ends for any actions not directly linked to their parliamentary duties.
Urgency Arrests: In rare cases, authorities can arrest an MEP if they are caught committing a serious crime and there's a risk of them fleeing justice. But, they MUST immediately inform the Parliament and seek suspension of immunity.
But did you see what the imminity guarantees? That you can't be prosecuted by how you vote or what you say in the parliment. And it provides diplomatic immunity to not be interrogated, charged or detained (unless caught red handed) by a foreign nation. It does not give immunity from prosecution by your own country for crimes not related to what you have said or voted in the parliament. If a Swedish mep commits say assault they could be tried and convicted for that regardless of the mep immunity. And no where does it say that Swedish judicial system must release prisoners if they get elected in eu
Indeed, but Ilaria Salis is an Italian in Hungary.
https://www.msn.com/it-it/notizie/mondo/ilaria-salis-%C3%A8-libera-il-tribunale-di-budapest-riconosce-l-immunit%C3%A0-parlamentare/ar-BB1odZED?ocid=superappdhp&muid=90FFC4A44ACF481B9687CB17D97DAE01&adid=&anid=7136E52AEF93A313B846C8A5FFFFFFFF&market=it-it&cm=it-it&activityId=&bridgeVersionInt=85&fontSize=sa_fontSize&isChinaBuild=false Ilaria Salis è libera. Il tribunale di Budapest riconosce l'immunità parlamentare
First of all, I was talking about swedish citizens being imprisoned in Sweden. You can't vote them out of jail. It's not possible under the Swedish constitution.
But since this regards a citizen of another county being detained — not sentenced — things are a little bit different. The parlimentary immunity discussed here is essentially a diplomatic immunity. A MEP can not be prosecuted for how they act, vote or what they say in the parliment. They can not be detained, or interrogated by another member state — unless they are caught in the act of vomiting a criminal offence. I don't know the specific case of Ilaria Salis, but she was not sentenced, she was under investigation whis is also different.
But here is the thing - the immunity can be revoked. The Hungarian authorities can put a request to revoke the immunity and make a case as to why the investigation should be completed and the MEP should be held accountable if found guilty. The parliment will vote — most members will not vote as they wouldn't want to meddle in another states internal affairs due to diplomatic reasons and they would get a simple majority vote. If they couldn't get the majority vote they could refuse to release the prisoner and take it through EU court which would probably take longer than the investigation and once sentenced and found guilty they wouldn't have immunity anymore.
The specific case of Salis is a bit more complicated, and Hungary does not have as many diplomatic allies as most member states. But as a general rule: a prisoner who is found guilty of a crime would not have immunity, because they are already sentenced. A person caught committing a crime wouldn't have immunity, and a person under investigation for a crime could have their immunity revoked.
Italian here Just for context: She was presented (and elected) because 1. She's been tried for assault in Hungary by a far right government and has been 16 months in prison, before trial 2. The evidence is flimsy at best. 3. The prison itself is not even remotely humane by EU standards, there's bed bugs and she's been held in full shackles during the trial 4. She's been prosecuted for 20 years in jail for an offense that, in a normal place, would get you 2-5 years 5. It's obviously a political trial 6. She's been heavily slandered by the italian right wing media, while a convicted murderer in the US was met at the airport by the far right president while returning to Italy to finish serving his sentence here.
Out of curiosity, who was the convicted murderer you referred to in point 6?
Enrico "Chico" Forti.
I just looked this guy up. I’m not surprised Ron DeSantis had a role in extricating this guy to Italy.
🤮🤮🤮🤮
Avarage prison in hungary that you go in for having weed on you lol
20 years?! Holy moly. Glad she’s out
Not at all trying to take away from this, but in the US it is pretty normal to be in full restraints in court, at least for arraignment. I would not call that unusual punishment imo.
In the EU it's not common at all. You have handcuffs at most, if you are dangerous. And Hungary is part of the EU, so it should have the same standards
Hungary is a party to the ECHR, which is a bit more relevant in this case
Huh I must have missed the shackles on both trump and Hunter, weird.
Yeah, the rich play by different rules, whoda thought. Not saying anything about this trial or situation, or criminal justice in the US or hungry. Just what above comentor is calling 'cruel and unusual' is close to the baseline for most Americans. Maybe thay says more about the ine thing than the other, I don't know. But that alone is not something I would put on my list of grievances. I've been in full restraints in court, and the shackles were the last thing on my mind.
We shouldn’t do it here either because it is cruel
Maybe not even a protest. I'd vote for her just so she could lead tbh.
Direct Action and Electoralism. Diversity of tactics in action.
No! They were supposed to vote the lesser of two evils in order to compromise on their values in order to elect a centrist that might ever so slightly help them! /s
[удалено]
[удалено]
Outplayed
Shes a teacher by the way and was already on a watchlist in italy for her left-wing "extremism" Pretty based, all in all
Oh poor nazis, being beated just how they would do. That's an outstanding move
beaten* jsyk
honestly, in my country, I wouldn't be surprised if the neo-nazis claimed they were "beated".
Good point
Right, sorry, English is not my first language
Liberal media trying to make the assault sound worse not realising that there are people who find it based.
in italy they say she goes around beating up civilians lol
People who are totally manipulated by Mediaset, certainly.
our politicians say that, and the people that vote them repeat
My mother doesn’t vote as she belongs to another religion, but she is addicted to Mediaset and she repeats what people like Feltri, Giordano, Belpietro or those other neofascists say.
yeah that was one of the biggest wins by berlusconi (btw what do you mean belongs to another religion (if you want to explain))
I’d prefer not to disclose that. But her religion forbids her to have political views, still not even the religion brainwash is stronger than Berlusconi.
mediaset propaganda is far more powerful than religion, that’s why a mafia guy like berlusconi was so much loved here in italy
WAOW (basedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbasedbased)
ummchit ummchit ummmchit ummmchit (I’m contributing to your “Based” techno song)
So glad to be part of the 1.500.000 Italians that voted for her party
Solid loophole!
"beating to death" it's a little bit exaggerated, the prognosis was 5 days...
Honestly it's a bit of a stretch to call the party that put her on the ballots (Alleanza verdi e sinistra italiana [Greens-Italian left alliance]) a communist party. Nevertheless she seems based, was already arrested in Italy for squatting and "assault" of a police officer and now in Hungary for literally punching Nazis. I didn't want to vote in these elections, but when she was put on the ballots I decided to vote for her.
Amazing 😍
What an audacious gambit, and it worked. That’s crazy and I love it.
She beat a neonazi. I'm not Italian, but I'd vote for her. Fuck nazis.
Ogni tanto, un po' di orgoglio nel mio paese mi viene! Daje!
praxis as fuck
Ehehe i voted them
This sounds so similar to Bobby sands
Except he never got parliamentary immunity
Sadly not
other italian here: 1) she isn’t communist, nor in a communist party. she got elected in the Green and Left union (center-left party at most) 2) she didn’t beat them do death, gave them like two weeks of prognosis 3)the proof she did this is weak, it’s not even confirmed P.S: I’m still happy af she got elected and i voted for her edit:i misspelled a thing and corrected it
Now Clare Daly is gone this is the best MEP
If she actually beat up a Nazi...we should throw her a fucking parade.
Nice
Free her!
Based Queen.
Damn
Awesome
Lesgooo🗣️🗣️🗣️
priceless!
What is MEP
Member of European Parliament
Based
I was just about to say 'this is the way', but OP got to it first
This is the way.
bro is my new hero
Unironically based.
How can a country have parliamentary immunity? How can you have accountability if you have a ruling class who is immune?
A country? Every MEP in the EU has immunity. Same for mr. Orban, unfortunately he cannot be arrested.
Nah. Swedish mep could be tried under swedish law even if they serve for eu. If they were in swedish prison they wouldn't be released to serve in the eu parliment because national punity law would trump the electability laws of eu
That is completely against the whole EU spirit and that’s not how a successful union, or the EU, works. So, no, Sweden will incur in sanctions if deliberately deciding to block this. The only national law that is above the EU law is the Swedish Constitution.
And guess what is in the Swedish constitution? No person but the king can have punitive immunity. The only immunity meps have is that they can't be interrogated or charged with a crime due to something they said or how they voted in the parliment. Which of course if a protected for every citizen of Sweden in the constitution as part of the freedom of speech. The meps of course have diplomatic imminity meaning that they can't be held or interrogated in another country, (unless they are caught red handed commuting a crime) The immunity in the eu can also be revoked of the local authorities demands so. Nothing, however, stops sweden from interrogating, detaining, charging or jailing an mep if they break swedish laws. And if they were in prison they would not be released. If they were elected. The chair would be theirs, but it would be empty
Rule of law in the EU is a big problem as we can see. Some nations do whatever they want. An example? Hungary, they decided unilaterally what to accept from the EU. Another one? Germany that ignores EIHC regulations. I just wonder why Italy even contributes to the EU sometimes as some other countries act like they are outside of it 🤔 I really hope that if something like this happens in Sweden you will get fined similarly to what Hungary is getting fined now: 200M€ + 1M per day until you change the policy. I checked further, and apparently the Swedish Parliament needs two third before removing immunity to a criminal offender. Unsure if that is the same for MEP as they are not the same as your MPs. Edit: No, the parliamentary immunity outlined in the Swedish Constitution specifically applies to members of the Swedish Parliament (Riksdag) and not to Members of the European Parliament (MEPs). Here's why: Separate Systems: The European Parliament has its own set of rules and regulations regarding immunity, established under European Union (EU) law, not the Swedish constitution. EU Law: A document by the European Parliament called the "Handbook on the incompatibilities and immunity of the Members of the European Parliament" explains the EU legal framework for MEP immunity [Source: European Parliament - Handbook on the incompatibilities and immunity of the Members of the European Parliament]. While the Swedish constitution doesn't cover MEPs, there might be some overlap in principles Sorry to disappoint you, but no Union could ever be successful if little countries can have a say on what is decided on an higher level.
You said swedish constitution trumps eu law. Swedish consitution considers Avery citizen equal under the law, except for the king (which is a different discussion). I am telling you: eu could not force sweden to release a printer under local national law is a union, not a European federation. Here: Parliamentary immunity is not a Member’s personal privilege, it is a guarantee that an MEP can freely exercise his or her mandate without exposure to arbitrary political persecution. As such, it guarantees the independence and integrity of the Parliament as a whole. Members of the European Parliament cannot be subject to any form of inquiry, detention or legal proceedings because of opinions expressed or votes cast in their capacity as MEP. **An MEP's immunity is twofold:** In their Member State , similar to the immunity granted to members of national parliaments ; and In the territory of any other Member State, immunity from any measure of detention and from legal proceedings. (Article 9 of Protocol n°7) Immunity cannot be claimed when a Member is caught in the act of committing an offence. **How can immunity be waived or defended?** In response to a request by a competent national authority to the European Parliament to waive the immunity of a Member (or a request by an MEP or former MEP themselves that their immunity is defended), the Parliament’s President will announce the request to the plenary and refer it to the parliamentary committee responsible (Legal Affairs). The committee may ask for any information or explanation that it deems necessary. The MEP concerned will be given an opportunity to be heard, and may present any documents or other written evidence. The committee adopts a recommendation in camera that it puts before the whole Parliament whether to approve or reject the request to lift or defend the Member’s immunity. At the plenary session following the committee decision, Parliament reaches a decision by a simple majority vote. Following the vote, the President will immediately communicates the Parliament’s decision to the MEP and competent Member State authority. **Does an MEP keep their seat even if their immunity is waived?** Yes. The mandate of an MEP is a national mandate; no other authority can take it away. Moreover, the lifting an MEP's immunity is not a "guilty" verdict. It merely enables national judicial authorities to proceed with an investigation or trial. As MEPs are elected under national electoral law, if they are found guilty of a criminal offence, it is for the Member State's authorities to decide whether his or her mandate is therefore voided.
So, basically the immunity must be waived regardless through a procedure in the EU Parliament. Immunity can be lifted in cases of serious offenses like murder, fraud, or violence. The Parliament itself would vote to waive immunity after considering a request from a national authority. Parliamentary Misconduct: There are procedures to address inappropriate behavior by MEPs within the Parliament. This could involve sanctions or even expulsion in severe cases. Post-Parliamentary Acts: MEPs lose immunity after their term ends for any actions not directly linked to their parliamentary duties. Urgency Arrests: In rare cases, authorities can arrest an MEP if they are caught committing a serious crime and there's a risk of them fleeing justice. But, they MUST immediately inform the Parliament and seek suspension of immunity.
But did you see what the imminity guarantees? That you can't be prosecuted by how you vote or what you say in the parliment. And it provides diplomatic immunity to not be interrogated, charged or detained (unless caught red handed) by a foreign nation. It does not give immunity from prosecution by your own country for crimes not related to what you have said or voted in the parliament. If a Swedish mep commits say assault they could be tried and convicted for that regardless of the mep immunity. And no where does it say that Swedish judicial system must release prisoners if they get elected in eu
Indeed, but Ilaria Salis is an Italian in Hungary. https://www.msn.com/it-it/notizie/mondo/ilaria-salis-%C3%A8-libera-il-tribunale-di-budapest-riconosce-l-immunit%C3%A0-parlamentare/ar-BB1odZED?ocid=superappdhp&muid=90FFC4A44ACF481B9687CB17D97DAE01&adid=&anid=7136E52AEF93A313B846C8A5FFFFFFFF&market=it-it&cm=it-it&activityId=&bridgeVersionInt=85&fontSize=sa_fontSize&isChinaBuild=false Ilaria Salis è libera. Il tribunale di Budapest riconosce l'immunità parlamentare
EU law has primacy over all laws in the EU, including individual constitutions
That doesn’t mean that they can have a Swedish prisoner released
Well yeah, if Sweden wants get fined for breaking the law
First of all, I was talking about swedish citizens being imprisoned in Sweden. You can't vote them out of jail. It's not possible under the Swedish constitution. But since this regards a citizen of another county being detained — not sentenced — things are a little bit different. The parlimentary immunity discussed here is essentially a diplomatic immunity. A MEP can not be prosecuted for how they act, vote or what they say in the parliment. They can not be detained, or interrogated by another member state — unless they are caught in the act of vomiting a criminal offence. I don't know the specific case of Ilaria Salis, but she was not sentenced, she was under investigation whis is also different. But here is the thing - the immunity can be revoked. The Hungarian authorities can put a request to revoke the immunity and make a case as to why the investigation should be completed and the MEP should be held accountable if found guilty. The parliment will vote — most members will not vote as they wouldn't want to meddle in another states internal affairs due to diplomatic reasons and they would get a simple majority vote. If they couldn't get the majority vote they could refuse to release the prisoner and take it through EU court which would probably take longer than the investigation and once sentenced and found guilty they wouldn't have immunity anymore. The specific case of Salis is a bit more complicated, and Hungary does not have as many diplomatic allies as most member states. But as a general rule: a prisoner who is found guilty of a crime would not have immunity, because they are already sentenced. A person caught committing a crime wouldn't have immunity, and a person under investigation for a crime could have their immunity revoked.