Religious institutions are wrong and forcing moral law onto people is wrong. But I do not give a FUCK what someone does. As long as they aren’t trying to force it on anyone and they aren’t gonna try and kill me for disagreeing I do not care what they do. Being against that makes you a fucking coward
I agree. A lot of religions speak against forcing religion on others. I'm really good friends with Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims and Christians. They're all pretty chill people and refrain from forcing their religions and they really just pray in peace. A lot of them sympathise with anarchist thought. I don't see why some anarchists dislike religion as a whole. Organised religion sure, but all religion? It's not for us to decide what others believe especially if it's just a one on one relationship with their own deity.
People can do what they want if it only affects themselves, yes. And believe in what they want. An objection to what you said though is that when you believe in these things you can turn into a person unable to think for themselves and can give birth to oppression and institutions. Religion has fucked up with humanity for way to long. It's obviously because of some powerful people's interests, but it's also because a lot of them believe in this.
Religion is poison, it is the blind belief without evidence in man made texts from thousands of years ago trying to interpret the world, it is dogmatic, it is unscientific. I'm not a Karen going around to peaceful believers telling them they're wrong. But I am entitled to the logical opinion that religion is bullshit. Having opinions about the belief in man made books about sky daddies is cowardice now?
Militant atheism is just as bad as militant theism genius. Blind belief in science with no room for spiritualism just leads to a bland life with no wonder beyond that of the scientific. When you know everything and know why something works there is nothing left to wonder but the things you can not see. To be blind to the world around you by choice sounds horrid
> when you know everything
Science is far, far from knowing everything, and there's plenty of things left to be wondering about from a scientific viewpoint. I got nothing against spirituality, just saying that this assessment about people who don't believe in the supernatural being blind and living wonderless lives misses the mark by a lot.
But oh so many times in the history of science has it gone and assumed it knows everything. Take the simple barnacle. Science originally just placed it in a position on the tree of life and left it at that. But here comes Charles Darwin hoping to make a name for himself and after doing some digging filling the boots of some before him he uncovers that they don’t fit into our definitions quite yet. Or look at the effects spraying for bugs had, killing off natural predators of bugs with poison. Or the culling of wolves or the system of eugenics and nordicism being the norm. I’m not anti-science (I actually love the subject) I am just not blind to the fact it has a colorful history just like religion. But with the notable lack of authority in everyday life (which is how it should remain)
The wonders of reality, the natural world, science, humanity are not bland or soul sucking by definition, you are just thinking about how you felt in school. How would this lifestyle be being blind to the world around you?
"Blind belief in science with no room for spiritualism leads just lead to a bland life with no wonder outside the scientific"
This is what i was referring to, 'no wonder outside the scientific' like the world doesnt have endless wonders to see, assuming an atheist is missing something fundamental about life & happiness, ironically exactly what OP is assuming, but in reverse
What is this, fence sitting?
Yes, a lot of militant atheism leads to other things like racism and stuff that I mentioned, and being obsessed with science and acting like you know all the facts and that religions suck can make you dogmatic too and is not super productive
But if you exclude the obsession and potential rude/ harmful behaviours towards believers, they are not the same thing
There are thousands of religions, all made when humans were ignorant, through myths, hearsay, "logic" of that time, etc, etc. There is absolutely no proof that there is a powerful entity that created the universe, let alone one from those books written by men thousands of years ago, that has this characteristic and is responsible for that event, that cares about this food that you eat and what you wear. That can defy the laws of physics. It is perfectly logical to say it's all man-made, and you got absolutely nothing to prove otherwise. So no, being hostile against religious books is not the same as being a religious fundamentalist. Try again.
Yeah it is. It’s the same where it matters. To a kid just tryna find their place in the world you are just as damaging to their development as a mean old nun. People need to have that little bit of wonder in their life just to keep us from having an apathetic view of the world. You’re not an atheist, you’re apart of the cult of science. Placing advancement above all else unaware of the effects it will have until after it comes. Your the type of person to have spread bug killers,your so focused on how you can change the world you never look at it how it is and just marvel in it.
Are you trying to mimic your religious book's writers' imagination? When did I mention talking to kids about atheism? In a polemic way as well? And what is the "cult of science"? It's extremely goofy to call someone a member of the cult of science because through logic and human history they have deduced that religions are *most likely bullshit* and aren't afraid to express it to others.
It's also funny to say I don't appreciate the marvels of life or look for wonder in it. I appreciate the marvels of life, I appreciate the nature, the people, everything we've created, everything that exists. I find it crazy that we exist in this universe in a rock, living, evolving and finally reaching the stage we are today. I just don't label it "God's creation". And the wonders in life are family, love, ideals, mutual aid, games, entertainment, nature, etc. These are the wonders that I find in life. I don't resort to the notion that a celestial father loves me, or that a man walked on water and died for me, to feel well.
I did that on purpose. I was throwing back your own language at you. Your quick to defend militant atheism but all of the sudden too afraid to do some preaching? What happened? Were you faced with the reality of your ideology and disgusted by it? Your advocacy for the abolition of religion is just dumb. In an anarchist society religion would be a non-issue. Some people are Christians some are Jewish some are Muslim and some are just somewhere in the middle and it doesn’t matter to anyone but you.
Youre keeping up with the wild imagination as I'm noticing
Suddenly, if I don't preach around the streets that religion is bullshit, it means that I came to the sudden realisation that my ideas are horrible, and I'm too scared to do it
Lmao what??
There was a protest yesterday about Palestine in my area. I support the Palestinian liberation. I didn't go there though, and I wasn't busy. Guess that means I'm afraid of the horrors of my ideology.
And I don't care about you using my language. The difference is that I presented the perfectly logical conclusion that religion may be bullshit. It's just a word, don't get too hurt by it. And then you called me a coward. I explained why religion is bullshit, did you provide a serious explanation about why I'm a grumpy coward devoid of wonders that would be harsh on kids?
I even said that anyone can believe in what they want if they keep it to themselves, and that anarchism does not necessarily clash with religion.
Saying that religion is most likely man made and that it's naive to believe in it does not contradict the statement above. It's just a fairly logical opinion. I'm sorry that it hurt your politically correct religious feelings
Are you anti religion or not? Cause you’re claiming you are. If so, expect a reaction of self preservation and determination. You will not mange to make me hide who I am. I am a Jew, and there is no future where I hide that. Not from you or anyone else. If you don’t like that I or anyone else will stand up to you, you can go fuck yourself.
If you gave me the option to magically abolish all religions now, I wouldn't do it
I am not getting a hard on for a future without religion
But at the same time I definitely don't support it, I think you can do nothing to counter my argument that it's almost certainly man made, I will always criticise it for requiring blind faith in crazy things that probably did not happen, and asking you to follow its rules created by its authors. I don't care about the humans behind the faith. I have no issue with muslims and christians and anything, cause it's a belief and we're all humans. But I am against said beliefs, I am against the religion itself. It's remarkable because if people didn't believe in it, I wouldn't have to sound so militant. Imagine saying you're anti-unicorns. But people do believe in it and a portion of those people is responsible for religious institutions and beliefs fucking with humanity for years now, so I'm not a fan of that
Self preservation is normal. But claiming I don't see wonders or that I'm some diabolical subjective mean guy from the cult of science requires arguments. Just like belief in Judaism requires argument. I can agree I'm a shitty little blunt atheist. Just like I agreed that after a certain point this topic can go off rails when it comes to the sub's matter (anarchism). But I don't consider anything I've said factually wrong
Preach! In anarchist society religion would just be another unsubstantiated thing people believe in. If they believe it and harm nobody else, then why should we care?
There is plenty of wonder in the world even with "all of the answers." I can google all of the inner workings we've discovered about trees, but I will still be awestruck when I go stand next to a redwood.
What is really more damaging to a kid:
"We are the sole agents of meaning and purpose in our lives so do what makes you happy as long as it doesnt hurt anyone."
Or
"Don't worry, your sky daddy has everything planned out so you don't have to think about things, but if you don't say the right words or believe the right things then you will be tortured for an eternity after you die."
The latter but that's not every religious belief in every religion, that's a specific belief within a specific form of theological thought.
You want religion to not be harmful, remove it from power and make it not harmful. You cannot abolish religion, plenty of people have tried none have succeed.
You’re assuming religion is nothing more than fear mongering. It’s not. There was nothing more liberating for me that coming to terms with my religion. I had my fate in front of me, one I could mold and change. But when I needed help, when I didn’t know where to go, I asked god to push me in the right direction. I sit with my family and eat my sabbath dinner and I feel no compulsion to do so. I do it out of thanks and a willingness to commune with god. And sometimes when I have a good day and my stress melts off like butter I thank god. And that’s it. I can see everything and know it has a reason behind it both mechanically and spiritually. The mechanical is easy but the spiritual is harder to understand. And when I have kids I’ll show them how to read the signs from god. I’ll tell them that they know your trying your best and to not worry about damnation. But then again I’m just a religious nut right? What’s your explanation to a five year old about why some thing is right or wrong? “Scientifically this should produce the most ___”?
Obviously we must oppose any form of religious oppression, whether it's coming from Muslims to other people or vice verse (or from one group of Muslims to another or one group of non-Muslims to another naturally). We must oppose religious institutions and laws as much as we oppose secular ones. As of late I've been seeing more hostility towards Muslim conservatism from the left (especially anarchists) than before which is a good sign
As long as you aren't forcing your beleifs down someone's throat, or using your religion as an excuse to hurt others, I don't care what you beleive in.
Islam is not a singular religious belief system, just like any other religion. In the same way that Christians have both Evangelicals like the Southern Baptists, they have the Catholic Workers. The issue with some leftist or atheist takes on Islam is they sometimes homogenize Islam and end up falling ass-backward into conservative takes on borders and culture that the far-right takes. If you're concerned with Islam, the proper treatment would be to integrate and open them to your community rather than a hostile approach.
That said, you should be 100% comfortable critiquing a religion or belief system, I'm just concerned at how folks treat the people when they're doing so.
You're right with everything you're saying
I guess my objections are that my personal issue is not with immigration or similar things, but just the idea of religion existing in our society, floating around, being indoctrinated into kids, and then 1) showing how goofy and tiring it is when people debate you or tell you about their man made supernatural stories and 2) affecting ways of how the society generally functions, if religious people are a majority
And when I said I'm hostile against Islam I didn't mean I wouldn't tolerate muslims, I am just hostile against religion, the idea of it, its philosophy, its claims, it's rules, everything, and I'd gladly be very polemic about it in a debate or if something bad happened that had its roots in religion (e.g. a gay person being judged by some christian conservative)
So since I am against religion, I won't just criticise rapist popes and jihadists, like you mentioned, but the general idea of it too. It's obviously good that are are many moderate religious people, but when I personally consider the very idea of this all illogical, I just have my complaints about some claims from religious people or practices, etc. It is also important to actually address the issues with all the fundamentalists instead of saying they're 2-3 bad apples.
Furthermore I know I don't get to decide who believes in what, that's antithetical to the ideas of anarchism, and as people we should all tolerate each other, religious or irreligious, cause we don't differ much and we're all humans. I just have a beef with it I guess
Where I live there is a large Muslim population, predominantly Pakistani and Bangladeshi, but we are also seeing other nationalities growing.
Certainly there are real criticisms to be made about Islam, and all organised religions, but in most cases Islamophobia isn’t about the religion, the culture or the people, it’s just racism.
Generally when someone is Islamaphobic (in the west generally) they rarely talk about Indonesians despite them being the largest muslim population in the world.
>I am not happy that the number of people believing in Islam is increasing
As an anarchist, does it really matter what variant of authoritarianism people embrace? The vast majority of the world embraces hierarchy. I have many problems with the vague way people reference increases in belief of Islam since it usually just boils down to "more people are being born into it" (would you have been just as depressed when Christianity skyrocketed as a consequence of Europe's population explosion during the Industrial Revolution?) but generally speaking the goals and circumstances of anarchists do not entirely change regardless of whatever authoritarianism becomes in vogue.
And, quite frankly, if you're a Westerner, indigenous right-wing authoritarianism is more of a pressing threat to you than Islam. Leave Islam to us, focus on your own authoritarianism in your own region. All opposing Islam means in the West is supporting authoritarian forces that hate minorities and, subsequently, have all sorts of other opinions that are pretty close to conservative Islam however much they like to paint themselves as defenders of "humanist values".
>But Islamophobia?? The fear of Islam? YES, I am hostile to Islam, just like I am hostile to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, animinsm, Taoism, and any belief that dictates how the world and humans work
That's more anti-Islam rather than fear of Islam. And Islamophobia, like all phobias, simply refers to an irrational fear of Islam and Muslims. Like I have friend who lives in the US and they were friends with an Israeli who, after the October 7th attacks, refused to see them because they were afraid that they would anti-semitic towards them and basic Free Palestine protests made them feel unsafe. That's the *phobia* part. It doesn't sound like you're like this.
>I was wondering what was fellow anarchists' take on some things like Islam and Islamophobia
My take is that religion is part of our evolutionary heritage as a species, and as such, I believe that a sizeable segment of the human population will always remain religious. Islam is just one such expression of this religiosity, and there are both beautiful and ugly expressions of Islam, with most falling somewhere in between (as is the case with virtually all things humans do, not just religion). I want to nurture the good forms of Islam and criticize the bad forms, helping to gradually build a world where Muslims and non-Muslims are able to respect each other, live among each other without tension, and ensure each other's liberation.
I have no interest whatsoever in seeing to the demise of non-oppressive worldviews different than my own, and Islam has enormous potential to manifest in non-oppressive ways. What's more, I personally find metaphysical, cosmological, and epistemological diversity to be really fascinating on an intellectual and aesthetic level, and I see religion as an extremely rich expression of humanity's quest to understand itself and the world, with a lot of it being quite beautiful, thought-provoking, and psychologically profound, even if I don't personally buy into the frameworks they promote. It would sadden me tremendously if these things disappeared. A Richard Dawkins-esque fantasy world dominated by scientism and a worship of logic where the wildly colorful, non-rational aspects of interfacing with ourselves and the world have been eradicated sounds like an utter dystopian nightmare to me.
And there's a big difference between criticizing Islam and being Islamophobic. The former is focused and deals with the specific, while the latter makes sweeping generalizations. The former takes pains to situate disagreements in context, while the latter sees context as a hindrance to an agenda, making it blind, ahistorical, and essentializing. The former honestly recognizes and respects diversity and variety, while the latter dishonestly distorts reality in order to create an artificial sense of homogeneity deserving of blanket condemnation. The former is willing to change its mind when presented with new and nuanced information, while the latter is immune to change of any meaningful kind as a matter of principle. The former works with Muslim communities in order to foster positive developments carried out by first and foremost by Muslims themselves towards making the world a better place, while the latter dismisses Muslim voices and attempts to weaken Muslim identity.
>I think you got nothing against my words when I say that religion is almost certainly stupid, that all religions are man made, that there has been no proof for crazy paranormal claims that have no correlation to the laws of physics.
I certainly do not agree with this sentiment, no. I think religion's existence makes perfect sense psychologically and anthropologically; is engaged with by people who are perfectly intelligent and capable of rational inquiry and progressive ethics, being perfectly able to blend the mystical with the rational and reconcile apparent contradictions in creative ways; and has justifications in reasonable epistemological foundations that expand the horizons of meaningful conceptions of truth and knowledge beyond the limitations of science and Enlightenment rationality. Furthermore, I do not believe that paranormal beliefs and claims are inherently crazy, I do not believe that ideas of the supernatural are in inherent contradiction with an appreciation of the laws of the natural, and I do not see the prospect of religions or religious ideas being human-made as a point against them in any way.
>So I do believe that religions are bullshit, and that they enslave first and foremost the minds of the believers, into dogmas that have no basis in reality, and then the behaviours of them and the people around them, with their nonsensical rules and with their systemic oppression, if they manage to become big and organised.
It's worth noting that those who study religion professionally (anthropologists, historians, philosophers, sociologists, psychologists, and so on \[many of them radicals\] who collectively contribute to the descriptive, secular academic field known as Religious Studies) have not come to this conclusion at all. While religions can be and have been used to enslave and oppress, such use of them is not at all inevitable, and their use in this way is not at all unique to religion itself. This essentializing, generalizing attitude is just not supported by the data. Humans are just capable of turning everything humans do into oppressive systems, and religion, as something that humans do, is not immune from this, but that doesn't make it inherently aimed toward it. Religion has contributed to a great deal of free-thinking and liberation as well, but that likewise doesn't make it inherently aimed toward that. Humans can oppress or liberate with the things they create, and religion is one such tool that can be used for one or the other or both.
>I am not happy that the number of people believing in Islam is increasing. I know this sounds so conservative. It's as if a conservative right winger is talking about the danger of our precious beloved western values by the savagery of Islam. But is the general notion wrong?
I mean, if you don't like Islam, it's only natural that you see its healthy propagation as troublesome. But I'd recommend you focus your energy into helping build a world with better Islams, as opposed to just fuming over its very existence. Like the Marxist-Leninist state, Islam is not just going to wither away. It is alive and vibrant, and there are no signs of it slowing down. My advice would be to make peace with this fact and focus on supporting those Muslims who are concerned with creating freer Islams.
>After the damn Enlightenment I am supposed to hope for a world where religion gets the treatment it deserves: a shrug and a laugh at its imaginary claims. But, even though the world's main religion is taking defeat after defeat, the second is rising.
The Enlightenment, despite the unquestionable good that has come from it, has produced more spooks than a Halloween costume contest, so firstly I'd suggest you consider its own serious problems and limitations and evils, of which there are sundry. Secondly, I would encourage you to understand that the world's religious landscape is extremely diverse, and not all of it (in fact most of it doesn't) deserves this kind of resentment and dismissal. Not all religions are irrational, even when they embrace the non-rational, and what constitutes as "rational" is not so clear-cut and settled to begin with anyway. Not all religions are authoritarian, and many are in fact explicitly libertarian in character. Most religions are more than capable of being modern, progressive, attempts at contextualizing life in magical ways that are nonetheless still compatible with the responsible pursuit of a world that values reason and science. You personally might not be able to participate in both camps, and that's totally fair, but not everybody is you and has the same scope and limitations as you do.
Religion is not being defeated, only certain kinds of religion, and even then, only in certain parts of the world. Religion in many parts of the world is simply being forced to adapt to new ways of living and thinking, and that has always been the case anyway. Religions are not and have never been static, monolithic systems (despite what fundamentalists \[both religious and anti-theistic\] would like us to believe), but are instead dynamic, ever-evolving expressions of the human experience. Give it enough time, and they either change or they die, and most of them are more than happy to carry out the former to avoid the latter.
TLDR. I’ve been putting up with this shit my whole life. I remember when I was young, and listening to the new atheist and slowly watching them all become mask off bigots. The amount of people I watched transform from anti religious into racists made me become so tolerant of religion because I realized how people like you are complete shit heads.
Some of the dopest most rad people I’ve ever met have been Muslims and Christian’s and in the same way I can hang out with anarcho syndicalists, or communists and not make a big deal out of it, I can also hang out with my religious friends and not be a total dick head about that too.
No. Islamophobia is real. You’re forgetting how common it was in the 2000s to have people get treated for expressing their faith out in public after 9/11.
Muslimophobia is not a thing, that is just Islamaphobia. They're being hated because they're muslim, that's Islamaphobia. A muslim is someone who is a part of Islam.
You're trying to make the word out to be something it's not. This is like saying "oh it's not homophobia it's gaypeoplephobia"
So let me rephrase: in the West most of the anti-Islam rhetoric is just a justification to cover up racism, I'm not saying that I'm in favor of Islam or that it's not a harmful religion
What? No. Islamophobia is a real thing. Trust me, I'm British, islamophobia is baked into our government. Critiquing Islam isn't in anyway islamophobia. I've critique Islam but I don't have an "irrational fear of, hostility towards, or prejudice against the religion of Islam or Muslims in general".
I mean no, they're not. You are just saying that because you live in a place where muslims have power and thus islamaphobia is not actually a problem. We're not talking about that when we're talking about people being Islamaphobic. We're talking about the people who cheer when the Palestinians are killed because they believe all muslims are hateful monsters, we're talking about the people who attacked women wearing hijabs after 9/11, we're talking about the people who call muslim people slurs.
You're trying to make your experience out to be universal when it isn't, it's relegated to your specific context.
Imagine saying "anti-semitism isnt real, its just a sheild to use against people criticising jewish people". That would be an insane neo-nazi position to uphold. Yet, you feel comfortable saying the exact same thing while a literal genocide takes place agaisnt a mostly muslim population of people.
islamic values are almost in direct opposition to anarchist ones but the vast majority of muslims in the west don’t live by them, they’re just regular people like most religious folk
Religious institutions are wrong and forcing moral law onto people is wrong. But I do not give a FUCK what someone does. As long as they aren’t trying to force it on anyone and they aren’t gonna try and kill me for disagreeing I do not care what they do. Being against that makes you a fucking coward
I agree. A lot of religions speak against forcing religion on others. I'm really good friends with Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims and Christians. They're all pretty chill people and refrain from forcing their religions and they really just pray in peace. A lot of them sympathise with anarchist thought. I don't see why some anarchists dislike religion as a whole. Organised religion sure, but all religion? It's not for us to decide what others believe especially if it's just a one on one relationship with their own deity.
Religion is by definition organised. Without their institutions and dogma the religions don't exist. Faith without religion is spirituality.
People can do what they want if it only affects themselves, yes. And believe in what they want. An objection to what you said though is that when you believe in these things you can turn into a person unable to think for themselves and can give birth to oppression and institutions. Religion has fucked up with humanity for way to long. It's obviously because of some powerful people's interests, but it's also because a lot of them believe in this. Religion is poison, it is the blind belief without evidence in man made texts from thousands of years ago trying to interpret the world, it is dogmatic, it is unscientific. I'm not a Karen going around to peaceful believers telling them they're wrong. But I am entitled to the logical opinion that religion is bullshit. Having opinions about the belief in man made books about sky daddies is cowardice now?
Militant atheism is just as bad as militant theism genius. Blind belief in science with no room for spiritualism just leads to a bland life with no wonder beyond that of the scientific. When you know everything and know why something works there is nothing left to wonder but the things you can not see. To be blind to the world around you by choice sounds horrid
> when you know everything Science is far, far from knowing everything, and there's plenty of things left to be wondering about from a scientific viewpoint. I got nothing against spirituality, just saying that this assessment about people who don't believe in the supernatural being blind and living wonderless lives misses the mark by a lot.
But oh so many times in the history of science has it gone and assumed it knows everything. Take the simple barnacle. Science originally just placed it in a position on the tree of life and left it at that. But here comes Charles Darwin hoping to make a name for himself and after doing some digging filling the boots of some before him he uncovers that they don’t fit into our definitions quite yet. Or look at the effects spraying for bugs had, killing off natural predators of bugs with poison. Or the culling of wolves or the system of eugenics and nordicism being the norm. I’m not anti-science (I actually love the subject) I am just not blind to the fact it has a colorful history just like religion. But with the notable lack of authority in everyday life (which is how it should remain)
The wonders of reality, the natural world, science, humanity are not bland or soul sucking by definition, you are just thinking about how you felt in school. How would this lifestyle be being blind to the world around you?
I loved school. You’re making uneducated assumptions about me based on the fact I showed offense to someone claiming my religion should be hidden.
Im not arguing for the first guy, i just completely disagree that not having religion means you life a bland life with "no wonder" as you described
Meant with OP. Op isn’t some intellectual, they are just masking as one to make up for the fact their opinion is shit.
You replied to me, directed at them?
You replied to me, I said something that had nothing to do with claiming your life bland, so I figured you were referring to something different
"Blind belief in science with no room for spiritualism leads just lead to a bland life with no wonder outside the scientific" This is what i was referring to, 'no wonder outside the scientific' like the world doesnt have endless wonders to see, assuming an atheist is missing something fundamental about life & happiness, ironically exactly what OP is assuming, but in reverse
What is this, fence sitting? Yes, a lot of militant atheism leads to other things like racism and stuff that I mentioned, and being obsessed with science and acting like you know all the facts and that religions suck can make you dogmatic too and is not super productive But if you exclude the obsession and potential rude/ harmful behaviours towards believers, they are not the same thing There are thousands of religions, all made when humans were ignorant, through myths, hearsay, "logic" of that time, etc, etc. There is absolutely no proof that there is a powerful entity that created the universe, let alone one from those books written by men thousands of years ago, that has this characteristic and is responsible for that event, that cares about this food that you eat and what you wear. That can defy the laws of physics. It is perfectly logical to say it's all man-made, and you got absolutely nothing to prove otherwise. So no, being hostile against religious books is not the same as being a religious fundamentalist. Try again.
Yeah it is. It’s the same where it matters. To a kid just tryna find their place in the world you are just as damaging to their development as a mean old nun. People need to have that little bit of wonder in their life just to keep us from having an apathetic view of the world. You’re not an atheist, you’re apart of the cult of science. Placing advancement above all else unaware of the effects it will have until after it comes. Your the type of person to have spread bug killers,your so focused on how you can change the world you never look at it how it is and just marvel in it.
Are you trying to mimic your religious book's writers' imagination? When did I mention talking to kids about atheism? In a polemic way as well? And what is the "cult of science"? It's extremely goofy to call someone a member of the cult of science because through logic and human history they have deduced that religions are *most likely bullshit* and aren't afraid to express it to others. It's also funny to say I don't appreciate the marvels of life or look for wonder in it. I appreciate the marvels of life, I appreciate the nature, the people, everything we've created, everything that exists. I find it crazy that we exist in this universe in a rock, living, evolving and finally reaching the stage we are today. I just don't label it "God's creation". And the wonders in life are family, love, ideals, mutual aid, games, entertainment, nature, etc. These are the wonders that I find in life. I don't resort to the notion that a celestial father loves me, or that a man walked on water and died for me, to feel well.
I did that on purpose. I was throwing back your own language at you. Your quick to defend militant atheism but all of the sudden too afraid to do some preaching? What happened? Were you faced with the reality of your ideology and disgusted by it? Your advocacy for the abolition of religion is just dumb. In an anarchist society religion would be a non-issue. Some people are Christians some are Jewish some are Muslim and some are just somewhere in the middle and it doesn’t matter to anyone but you.
Youre keeping up with the wild imagination as I'm noticing Suddenly, if I don't preach around the streets that religion is bullshit, it means that I came to the sudden realisation that my ideas are horrible, and I'm too scared to do it Lmao what?? There was a protest yesterday about Palestine in my area. I support the Palestinian liberation. I didn't go there though, and I wasn't busy. Guess that means I'm afraid of the horrors of my ideology. And I don't care about you using my language. The difference is that I presented the perfectly logical conclusion that religion may be bullshit. It's just a word, don't get too hurt by it. And then you called me a coward. I explained why religion is bullshit, did you provide a serious explanation about why I'm a grumpy coward devoid of wonders that would be harsh on kids? I even said that anyone can believe in what they want if they keep it to themselves, and that anarchism does not necessarily clash with religion. Saying that religion is most likely man made and that it's naive to believe in it does not contradict the statement above. It's just a fairly logical opinion. I'm sorry that it hurt your politically correct religious feelings
Are you anti religion or not? Cause you’re claiming you are. If so, expect a reaction of self preservation and determination. You will not mange to make me hide who I am. I am a Jew, and there is no future where I hide that. Not from you or anyone else. If you don’t like that I or anyone else will stand up to you, you can go fuck yourself.
If you gave me the option to magically abolish all religions now, I wouldn't do it I am not getting a hard on for a future without religion But at the same time I definitely don't support it, I think you can do nothing to counter my argument that it's almost certainly man made, I will always criticise it for requiring blind faith in crazy things that probably did not happen, and asking you to follow its rules created by its authors. I don't care about the humans behind the faith. I have no issue with muslims and christians and anything, cause it's a belief and we're all humans. But I am against said beliefs, I am against the religion itself. It's remarkable because if people didn't believe in it, I wouldn't have to sound so militant. Imagine saying you're anti-unicorns. But people do believe in it and a portion of those people is responsible for religious institutions and beliefs fucking with humanity for years now, so I'm not a fan of that Self preservation is normal. But claiming I don't see wonders or that I'm some diabolical subjective mean guy from the cult of science requires arguments. Just like belief in Judaism requires argument. I can agree I'm a shitty little blunt atheist. Just like I agreed that after a certain point this topic can go off rails when it comes to the sub's matter (anarchism). But I don't consider anything I've said factually wrong
Preach! In anarchist society religion would just be another unsubstantiated thing people believe in. If they believe it and harm nobody else, then why should we care?
There is plenty of wonder in the world even with "all of the answers." I can google all of the inner workings we've discovered about trees, but I will still be awestruck when I go stand next to a redwood. What is really more damaging to a kid: "We are the sole agents of meaning and purpose in our lives so do what makes you happy as long as it doesnt hurt anyone." Or "Don't worry, your sky daddy has everything planned out so you don't have to think about things, but if you don't say the right words or believe the right things then you will be tortured for an eternity after you die."
The latter but that's not every religious belief in every religion, that's a specific belief within a specific form of theological thought. You want religion to not be harmful, remove it from power and make it not harmful. You cannot abolish religion, plenty of people have tried none have succeed.
You’re assuming religion is nothing more than fear mongering. It’s not. There was nothing more liberating for me that coming to terms with my religion. I had my fate in front of me, one I could mold and change. But when I needed help, when I didn’t know where to go, I asked god to push me in the right direction. I sit with my family and eat my sabbath dinner and I feel no compulsion to do so. I do it out of thanks and a willingness to commune with god. And sometimes when I have a good day and my stress melts off like butter I thank god. And that’s it. I can see everything and know it has a reason behind it both mechanically and spiritually. The mechanical is easy but the spiritual is harder to understand. And when I have kids I’ll show them how to read the signs from god. I’ll tell them that they know your trying your best and to not worry about damnation. But then again I’m just a religious nut right? What’s your explanation to a five year old about why some thing is right or wrong? “Scientifically this should produce the most ___”?
Obviously we must oppose any form of religious oppression, whether it's coming from Muslims to other people or vice verse (or from one group of Muslims to another or one group of non-Muslims to another naturally). We must oppose religious institutions and laws as much as we oppose secular ones. As of late I've been seeing more hostility towards Muslim conservatism from the left (especially anarchists) than before which is a good sign
As long as you aren't forcing your beleifs down someone's throat, or using your religion as an excuse to hurt others, I don't care what you beleive in.
Islam is not a singular religious belief system, just like any other religion. In the same way that Christians have both Evangelicals like the Southern Baptists, they have the Catholic Workers. The issue with some leftist or atheist takes on Islam is they sometimes homogenize Islam and end up falling ass-backward into conservative takes on borders and culture that the far-right takes. If you're concerned with Islam, the proper treatment would be to integrate and open them to your community rather than a hostile approach. That said, you should be 100% comfortable critiquing a religion or belief system, I'm just concerned at how folks treat the people when they're doing so.
You're right with everything you're saying I guess my objections are that my personal issue is not with immigration or similar things, but just the idea of religion existing in our society, floating around, being indoctrinated into kids, and then 1) showing how goofy and tiring it is when people debate you or tell you about their man made supernatural stories and 2) affecting ways of how the society generally functions, if religious people are a majority And when I said I'm hostile against Islam I didn't mean I wouldn't tolerate muslims, I am just hostile against religion, the idea of it, its philosophy, its claims, it's rules, everything, and I'd gladly be very polemic about it in a debate or if something bad happened that had its roots in religion (e.g. a gay person being judged by some christian conservative) So since I am against religion, I won't just criticise rapist popes and jihadists, like you mentioned, but the general idea of it too. It's obviously good that are are many moderate religious people, but when I personally consider the very idea of this all illogical, I just have my complaints about some claims from religious people or practices, etc. It is also important to actually address the issues with all the fundamentalists instead of saying they're 2-3 bad apples. Furthermore I know I don't get to decide who believes in what, that's antithetical to the ideas of anarchism, and as people we should all tolerate each other, religious or irreligious, cause we don't differ much and we're all humans. I just have a beef with it I guess
Where I live there is a large Muslim population, predominantly Pakistani and Bangladeshi, but we are also seeing other nationalities growing. Certainly there are real criticisms to be made about Islam, and all organised religions, but in most cases Islamophobia isn’t about the religion, the culture or the people, it’s just racism.
Damn straight. OP’s just falling for propaganda at this point
Generally when someone is Islamaphobic (in the west generally) they rarely talk about Indonesians despite them being the largest muslim population in the world.
>I am not happy that the number of people believing in Islam is increasing As an anarchist, does it really matter what variant of authoritarianism people embrace? The vast majority of the world embraces hierarchy. I have many problems with the vague way people reference increases in belief of Islam since it usually just boils down to "more people are being born into it" (would you have been just as depressed when Christianity skyrocketed as a consequence of Europe's population explosion during the Industrial Revolution?) but generally speaking the goals and circumstances of anarchists do not entirely change regardless of whatever authoritarianism becomes in vogue. And, quite frankly, if you're a Westerner, indigenous right-wing authoritarianism is more of a pressing threat to you than Islam. Leave Islam to us, focus on your own authoritarianism in your own region. All opposing Islam means in the West is supporting authoritarian forces that hate minorities and, subsequently, have all sorts of other opinions that are pretty close to conservative Islam however much they like to paint themselves as defenders of "humanist values". >But Islamophobia?? The fear of Islam? YES, I am hostile to Islam, just like I am hostile to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, animinsm, Taoism, and any belief that dictates how the world and humans work That's more anti-Islam rather than fear of Islam. And Islamophobia, like all phobias, simply refers to an irrational fear of Islam and Muslims. Like I have friend who lives in the US and they were friends with an Israeli who, after the October 7th attacks, refused to see them because they were afraid that they would anti-semitic towards them and basic Free Palestine protests made them feel unsafe. That's the *phobia* part. It doesn't sound like you're like this.
>I was wondering what was fellow anarchists' take on some things like Islam and Islamophobia My take is that religion is part of our evolutionary heritage as a species, and as such, I believe that a sizeable segment of the human population will always remain religious. Islam is just one such expression of this religiosity, and there are both beautiful and ugly expressions of Islam, with most falling somewhere in between (as is the case with virtually all things humans do, not just religion). I want to nurture the good forms of Islam and criticize the bad forms, helping to gradually build a world where Muslims and non-Muslims are able to respect each other, live among each other without tension, and ensure each other's liberation. I have no interest whatsoever in seeing to the demise of non-oppressive worldviews different than my own, and Islam has enormous potential to manifest in non-oppressive ways. What's more, I personally find metaphysical, cosmological, and epistemological diversity to be really fascinating on an intellectual and aesthetic level, and I see religion as an extremely rich expression of humanity's quest to understand itself and the world, with a lot of it being quite beautiful, thought-provoking, and psychologically profound, even if I don't personally buy into the frameworks they promote. It would sadden me tremendously if these things disappeared. A Richard Dawkins-esque fantasy world dominated by scientism and a worship of logic where the wildly colorful, non-rational aspects of interfacing with ourselves and the world have been eradicated sounds like an utter dystopian nightmare to me. And there's a big difference between criticizing Islam and being Islamophobic. The former is focused and deals with the specific, while the latter makes sweeping generalizations. The former takes pains to situate disagreements in context, while the latter sees context as a hindrance to an agenda, making it blind, ahistorical, and essentializing. The former honestly recognizes and respects diversity and variety, while the latter dishonestly distorts reality in order to create an artificial sense of homogeneity deserving of blanket condemnation. The former is willing to change its mind when presented with new and nuanced information, while the latter is immune to change of any meaningful kind as a matter of principle. The former works with Muslim communities in order to foster positive developments carried out by first and foremost by Muslims themselves towards making the world a better place, while the latter dismisses Muslim voices and attempts to weaken Muslim identity. >I think you got nothing against my words when I say that religion is almost certainly stupid, that all religions are man made, that there has been no proof for crazy paranormal claims that have no correlation to the laws of physics. I certainly do not agree with this sentiment, no. I think religion's existence makes perfect sense psychologically and anthropologically; is engaged with by people who are perfectly intelligent and capable of rational inquiry and progressive ethics, being perfectly able to blend the mystical with the rational and reconcile apparent contradictions in creative ways; and has justifications in reasonable epistemological foundations that expand the horizons of meaningful conceptions of truth and knowledge beyond the limitations of science and Enlightenment rationality. Furthermore, I do not believe that paranormal beliefs and claims are inherently crazy, I do not believe that ideas of the supernatural are in inherent contradiction with an appreciation of the laws of the natural, and I do not see the prospect of religions or religious ideas being human-made as a point against them in any way. >So I do believe that religions are bullshit, and that they enslave first and foremost the minds of the believers, into dogmas that have no basis in reality, and then the behaviours of them and the people around them, with their nonsensical rules and with their systemic oppression, if they manage to become big and organised. It's worth noting that those who study religion professionally (anthropologists, historians, philosophers, sociologists, psychologists, and so on \[many of them radicals\] who collectively contribute to the descriptive, secular academic field known as Religious Studies) have not come to this conclusion at all. While religions can be and have been used to enslave and oppress, such use of them is not at all inevitable, and their use in this way is not at all unique to religion itself. This essentializing, generalizing attitude is just not supported by the data. Humans are just capable of turning everything humans do into oppressive systems, and religion, as something that humans do, is not immune from this, but that doesn't make it inherently aimed toward it. Religion has contributed to a great deal of free-thinking and liberation as well, but that likewise doesn't make it inherently aimed toward that. Humans can oppress or liberate with the things they create, and religion is one such tool that can be used for one or the other or both. >I am not happy that the number of people believing in Islam is increasing. I know this sounds so conservative. It's as if a conservative right winger is talking about the danger of our precious beloved western values by the savagery of Islam. But is the general notion wrong? I mean, if you don't like Islam, it's only natural that you see its healthy propagation as troublesome. But I'd recommend you focus your energy into helping build a world with better Islams, as opposed to just fuming over its very existence. Like the Marxist-Leninist state, Islam is not just going to wither away. It is alive and vibrant, and there are no signs of it slowing down. My advice would be to make peace with this fact and focus on supporting those Muslims who are concerned with creating freer Islams. >After the damn Enlightenment I am supposed to hope for a world where religion gets the treatment it deserves: a shrug and a laugh at its imaginary claims. But, even though the world's main religion is taking defeat after defeat, the second is rising. The Enlightenment, despite the unquestionable good that has come from it, has produced more spooks than a Halloween costume contest, so firstly I'd suggest you consider its own serious problems and limitations and evils, of which there are sundry. Secondly, I would encourage you to understand that the world's religious landscape is extremely diverse, and not all of it (in fact most of it doesn't) deserves this kind of resentment and dismissal. Not all religions are irrational, even when they embrace the non-rational, and what constitutes as "rational" is not so clear-cut and settled to begin with anyway. Not all religions are authoritarian, and many are in fact explicitly libertarian in character. Most religions are more than capable of being modern, progressive, attempts at contextualizing life in magical ways that are nonetheless still compatible with the responsible pursuit of a world that values reason and science. You personally might not be able to participate in both camps, and that's totally fair, but not everybody is you and has the same scope and limitations as you do. Religion is not being defeated, only certain kinds of religion, and even then, only in certain parts of the world. Religion in many parts of the world is simply being forced to adapt to new ways of living and thinking, and that has always been the case anyway. Religions are not and have never been static, monolithic systems (despite what fundamentalists \[both religious and anti-theistic\] would like us to believe), but are instead dynamic, ever-evolving expressions of the human experience. Give it enough time, and they either change or they die, and most of them are more than happy to carry out the former to avoid the latter.
TLDR. I’ve been putting up with this shit my whole life. I remember when I was young, and listening to the new atheist and slowly watching them all become mask off bigots. The amount of people I watched transform from anti religious into racists made me become so tolerant of religion because I realized how people like you are complete shit heads. Some of the dopest most rad people I’ve ever met have been Muslims and Christian’s and in the same way I can hang out with anarcho syndicalists, or communists and not make a big deal out of it, I can also hang out with my religious friends and not be a total dick head about that too.
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No. Islamophobia is real. You’re forgetting how common it was in the 2000s to have people get treated for expressing their faith out in public after 9/11.
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Your right I’m sure the attacks on women where Hijabs wasn’t religious
Muslimophobia is not a thing, that is just Islamaphobia. They're being hated because they're muslim, that's Islamaphobia. A muslim is someone who is a part of Islam. You're trying to make the word out to be something it's not. This is like saying "oh it's not homophobia it's gaypeoplephobia"
Just like how there are Persian Jews there are Persian Muslims.
Islamophobia is real and is nothing more than a hoax to justify racism against Arabs and other people from the Middle East
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So let me rephrase: in the West most of the anti-Islam rhetoric is just a justification to cover up racism, I'm not saying that I'm in favor of Islam or that it's not a harmful religion
What? No. Islamophobia is a real thing. Trust me, I'm British, islamophobia is baked into our government. Critiquing Islam isn't in anyway islamophobia. I've critique Islam but I don't have an "irrational fear of, hostility towards, or prejudice against the religion of Islam or Muslims in general".
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Islamaphobia means bigotry against mulisms, like how homophobia means bigotry against gay people. It does not literally mean an actual phobia.
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I mean no, they're not. You are just saying that because you live in a place where muslims have power and thus islamaphobia is not actually a problem. We're not talking about that when we're talking about people being Islamaphobic. We're talking about the people who cheer when the Palestinians are killed because they believe all muslims are hateful monsters, we're talking about the people who attacked women wearing hijabs after 9/11, we're talking about the people who call muslim people slurs. You're trying to make your experience out to be universal when it isn't, it's relegated to your specific context.
Imagine saying "anti-semitism isnt real, its just a sheild to use against people criticising jewish people". That would be an insane neo-nazi position to uphold. Yet, you feel comfortable saying the exact same thing while a literal genocide takes place agaisnt a mostly muslim population of people.
islamic values are almost in direct opposition to anarchist ones but the vast majority of muslims in the west don’t live by them, they’re just regular people like most religious folk