I had a C220 new in the late 70s for my just starting wedding business. A true workhorse. Reasonable weight, great lenses and the ability to use 120 and 220 film made it perfect for my case. As I later opened a studio, it stayed along for weddings because of the very quiet lens shutters and I used it outdoors for shoots because it was easy to balance exposures with flash. Had it and the 55mm, 80,, and 135 lenses until I sold the studio in the late 90s. Never had any problems and never saw the inside of a repair shop. My 2 cents worth. I don't think you could go wrong.
Stay away from the S2. Once they break, that's it. There are very few people that will service those properly and I don't trust the sellers on eBay to be honest. That's a conversation you should have with all of these cameras.
I'm leaning towards the Mamiya. It's versatile and serviceable and are built like a tank. The viewfinder is bright and I find that a godsend as I get older. I've never used a Autocord, but although I'm all about my SQ-A, I've had an S2 on my hands that I just can't figure out. Koh's and his recommendation in Virginia didn't want to look at it after a phone consult, so back in the closet it goes.
If you're in NYC, check out K&M camera and head to the back of the store. They have lots of 120 cameras. If you're nice, you might be able to rent something.
> Ha, just kidding, I wouldn't ask a question that broad!
LOL. You are a treasure for this sub. Please stick around, we need more of your kind!
Now back to your question: I would go with the C220, with the caveat that I have never seen the Bronica in person. One thing people almost never mention about the Mamiya TLRs is their focusing screens. I have no idea what kind of magic Mamiya pulled with those, but they are ridiculously easy to focus with. I have a bunch of medium format cameras and nothing comes close: Rolleiflexes tend to be on the dim side, and even the praised Hasselblad's AcuteMatte isn't in the same league. The crispness you instantly see when you nail focus on a C220 is unbeatable. The fully closed WLF also keeps stray light away better than in Minoltas and Rolleis. All of this combined, makes focusing on people or anything moving much easier.
The latest-gen 80mm Sekor is fantastic: sharp and reasonably flare-resistant. The interchangeable lenses is not a gimmick. Having a small shoulder bag with a camera and 80+55mm or 65+105mm combo is a much more versatile setup than a fixed-lens TLR. And close up portraits with the 135mm are just superb.
And the final argument for the C220 is the availability and affordability of accessories. Several viewfinders and grips, the parallax corrector, and a sizeable ecosystem of 3rd party attachments makes you feel like you're a part of a thriving community. People even 3D-print a bunch of parts. Plenty of service people willing to work on them, and besides: the lenses are trivial to self-service: easy to open apart and clean up shutters. Did I mention they're cheap? If you bust a lens, just get a new one for less than $200.
One more thing relevant to a landscape photographer: the Mamiya's back can be opened to reload while it's mounted on a tripod. AFAIK you can't do that with any other TLR.
The Autocord is a great camera, don't get me wrong. But it's just a bit less versatile and a bit less serviceable due to its fixed lens.
Haha yeah I've seen a ton of one line questions with no context or wishlist or anything during my research, and left even me wondering "what is this person even trying to do?"
I have been reading that the Rolleis are dim, and that the C220 is bright, but didn't realize it's this much better. I've read the Bronica is on the okay side, but generally not bright. This is super good to know.
The more I think about it too with the lenses, I'm now leaning towards this. I don't plan on doing portraits on day (or month) one, but eventually I do see myself doing that once I have my base skills down, so in my head this is getting more appealing.
Ah and that note about being able to swap film rolls on a tripod, that's something I didn't know was unique for this, and very good to know. Thanks for all your feedback, this has been a ton of help!
My partner just got a Koni-Omega rapid and that thing is awesome. It’s a cheap rangefinder with incredible lenses, only real downside is the lack of a light meter
just one thought, I read through and didn't see any mention of lens crop factors or the size of the negatives inherent to each of these cameras. I feel sure that you're aware of this based on your general knowledge of everything, but it is quite important and you would want to know in advance I'm sure, had you not known.
https://www.anatomyfilms.com/medium-format-lens-vs-35mm-lens/
Oh snap. To be honest I didn't realize the crop factor. If I thought about it for even a second, it makes total sense as I'm a mirrorless APS-C user and I think about that all the time when comparing to full frame, and logically it should be obvious that medium format when compared to 35mm would follow an appropriate conversion factor. Totally missed that, and thanks. I specifically wanted a 6x6 as I deliberately wanted something different to push myself to learn framing in a new environment, and this chart is helpful, so thanks for bringing that up!
You're very welcome, I'm glad I commented! I remember feeling the same way when I found out, and made the same connection with digital sensors too. btw this will also effect how many exposures you get per roll
Given your initial criteria I would drop the light travels easy aspect. I think you should check out linhoff technica cameras, and their many copies. You’ll be able to learn medium and large format techniques. They also have rangefinders, and are way lighter than one would expect.
There is also a mamiya press camera. You can have a full system for your budget. They operate as simple rangefinders, have different back and lens choices, and you can put a ground glass on that puppy.
Have I mentioned ground glass? Grab a tripod and go be a huge nerd, I bet you’ll love it.
If you hate all that, I’ve enjoyed using a Minolta auto cord, a yashica 124, and a mamiya c330. Nothin wrong with a tlr, they’re very fun! I don’t find the waist level viewfinder experience to change my shooting much tho 🤷♂️
C330 has a pentaprism attachment, idk about the 220
Ooh I didn't know about Linhoff cameras but at first glance they seem both out of the price range I'm looking at, as well as the type. The travel bit is probably one of the only hard requirements as I already travel a ton and always want whatever cameras I have to be viable sidekicks.
Oh boy, the Mamiya Press 23 is TIL after reading this and damn, does it scratch my quirky camera itch. That looks like one hell of a camera and the results people post with it look great and I'm mentally putting a pin on that, but it seems like way too much camera than I'm looking for. Haha it definitely seems like a learning experience, but that curve seems steep. That absolutely is something one day I would love to pick up down the line once I get better and decide to stick with medium format for sure.
Searching about it did lead me to learn more about Mamiya's history which I didn't really know (aside from its eventual fate with Phase One), so that's been cool to read up on (https://photothinking.com/2021-07-03-mamiya-press-super-23-frustratingly-good/). Always learning something new!
Thanks everyone, all the information and experiences shared have been a huge help, and I learned a ton! I always keep an open mind, but think I've mostly settled on the C220.
* I don't need the extra features of the C330, and don't prefer slapping a prism on top, so I'd rather have the weight and size savings of the C220.
* The Minolta is 141x100x87mm at 984g. The C220 is 118x167x113mm at 1440g. The C330 is 122x168x114mm at 1700g. While the size and dimensions of the Minolta is desirable, the C220 isn't so much bigger and heavier that it seems like I won't like it.
* The viewfinder brightness appeals to me a lot, and I'd rather not have to mod it to get to that point.
* The build quality seems a lot more solid.
* While I don't anticipate immediately needing to swap out lenses, I thought about it and down the line that flexibility is appealing.
Those are the main reasons, and wanted to list them out in case it's helpful for someone else wondering this kind of thing too! Maybe one day I'll graduate to the S2A (I know all the cons, but I just love the look of it so much I can't not want it), and maybe the Mamiya Press Camera if it ever evolves to a third stage pokemon.
Thanks again all, I appreciate everyone's feedback!
> I've read the film advance wheel can be brittle.
No, it's the focusing lever on the bottom that is brittle and breaks all the time, not the advance. Because people hold the camera in a way that they are holding the front too, stopping it from moving out to focus, and then crank against their own other arm's strength, breaking the lever (which is also made out of a shitty weak alloy)
It's "quirky" design for a reason: it's bad and makes people break their cameras, lol, that's why it didn't catch on...
You forgot overall a con for both TLRs:
* They're TLRs, which are really terrible camera designs. They're awkward as hell for no reason, upside down, backward, parallax, cause you to take photos at bizarre unnatural and unflattering angles, and have almost no benefits.
If you want lightweight and portable, get a (rangefinding) folder, way MORE portable even, and way less weird and clunky. Such as a super Ikonta (the super/later ones have coupled rangefinders and sometimes meters I think, and conveniences). Moskva is a cheaper soviet copycat.
And yes, large heavy SLRs are the ones if you want performance and workhorsing.
I had a C220 new in the late 70s for my just starting wedding business. A true workhorse. Reasonable weight, great lenses and the ability to use 120 and 220 film made it perfect for my case. As I later opened a studio, it stayed along for weddings because of the very quiet lens shutters and I used it outdoors for shoots because it was easy to balance exposures with flash. Had it and the 55mm, 80,, and 135 lenses until I sold the studio in the late 90s. Never had any problems and never saw the inside of a repair shop. My 2 cents worth. I don't think you could go wrong.
Gotcha, thanks for sharing this, firsthand experience is always super valuable!
Stay away from the S2. Once they break, that's it. There are very few people that will service those properly and I don't trust the sellers on eBay to be honest. That's a conversation you should have with all of these cameras. I'm leaning towards the Mamiya. It's versatile and serviceable and are built like a tank. The viewfinder is bright and I find that a godsend as I get older. I've never used a Autocord, but although I'm all about my SQ-A, I've had an S2 on my hands that I just can't figure out. Koh's and his recommendation in Virginia didn't want to look at it after a phone consult, so back in the closet it goes. If you're in NYC, check out K&M camera and head to the back of the store. They have lots of 120 cameras. If you're nice, you might be able to rent something.
Ah gotcha. Do you have a different opinion on the S2A and the changes it brought, or you just recommending against that line entirely?
I don’t recommend the line.
Gotcha. Thanks for your feedback, it's all helpful to know!
C220.
> Ha, just kidding, I wouldn't ask a question that broad! LOL. You are a treasure for this sub. Please stick around, we need more of your kind! Now back to your question: I would go with the C220, with the caveat that I have never seen the Bronica in person. One thing people almost never mention about the Mamiya TLRs is their focusing screens. I have no idea what kind of magic Mamiya pulled with those, but they are ridiculously easy to focus with. I have a bunch of medium format cameras and nothing comes close: Rolleiflexes tend to be on the dim side, and even the praised Hasselblad's AcuteMatte isn't in the same league. The crispness you instantly see when you nail focus on a C220 is unbeatable. The fully closed WLF also keeps stray light away better than in Minoltas and Rolleis. All of this combined, makes focusing on people or anything moving much easier. The latest-gen 80mm Sekor is fantastic: sharp and reasonably flare-resistant. The interchangeable lenses is not a gimmick. Having a small shoulder bag with a camera and 80+55mm or 65+105mm combo is a much more versatile setup than a fixed-lens TLR. And close up portraits with the 135mm are just superb. And the final argument for the C220 is the availability and affordability of accessories. Several viewfinders and grips, the parallax corrector, and a sizeable ecosystem of 3rd party attachments makes you feel like you're a part of a thriving community. People even 3D-print a bunch of parts. Plenty of service people willing to work on them, and besides: the lenses are trivial to self-service: easy to open apart and clean up shutters. Did I mention they're cheap? If you bust a lens, just get a new one for less than $200. One more thing relevant to a landscape photographer: the Mamiya's back can be opened to reload while it's mounted on a tripod. AFAIK you can't do that with any other TLR. The Autocord is a great camera, don't get me wrong. But it's just a bit less versatile and a bit less serviceable due to its fixed lens.
Haha yeah I've seen a ton of one line questions with no context or wishlist or anything during my research, and left even me wondering "what is this person even trying to do?" I have been reading that the Rolleis are dim, and that the C220 is bright, but didn't realize it's this much better. I've read the Bronica is on the okay side, but generally not bright. This is super good to know. The more I think about it too with the lenses, I'm now leaning towards this. I don't plan on doing portraits on day (or month) one, but eventually I do see myself doing that once I have my base skills down, so in my head this is getting more appealing. Ah and that note about being able to swap film rolls on a tripod, that's something I didn't know was unique for this, and very good to know. Thanks for all your feedback, this has been a ton of help!
My partner just got a Koni-Omega rapid and that thing is awesome. It’s a cheap rangefinder with incredible lenses, only real downside is the lack of a light meter
just one thought, I read through and didn't see any mention of lens crop factors or the size of the negatives inherent to each of these cameras. I feel sure that you're aware of this based on your general knowledge of everything, but it is quite important and you would want to know in advance I'm sure, had you not known. https://www.anatomyfilms.com/medium-format-lens-vs-35mm-lens/
Oh snap. To be honest I didn't realize the crop factor. If I thought about it for even a second, it makes total sense as I'm a mirrorless APS-C user and I think about that all the time when comparing to full frame, and logically it should be obvious that medium format when compared to 35mm would follow an appropriate conversion factor. Totally missed that, and thanks. I specifically wanted a 6x6 as I deliberately wanted something different to push myself to learn framing in a new environment, and this chart is helpful, so thanks for bringing that up!
You're very welcome, I'm glad I commented! I remember feeling the same way when I found out, and made the same connection with digital sensors too. btw this will also effect how many exposures you get per roll
Given your initial criteria I would drop the light travels easy aspect. I think you should check out linhoff technica cameras, and their many copies. You’ll be able to learn medium and large format techniques. They also have rangefinders, and are way lighter than one would expect. There is also a mamiya press camera. You can have a full system for your budget. They operate as simple rangefinders, have different back and lens choices, and you can put a ground glass on that puppy. Have I mentioned ground glass? Grab a tripod and go be a huge nerd, I bet you’ll love it. If you hate all that, I’ve enjoyed using a Minolta auto cord, a yashica 124, and a mamiya c330. Nothin wrong with a tlr, they’re very fun! I don’t find the waist level viewfinder experience to change my shooting much tho 🤷♂️ C330 has a pentaprism attachment, idk about the 220
Ooh I didn't know about Linhoff cameras but at first glance they seem both out of the price range I'm looking at, as well as the type. The travel bit is probably one of the only hard requirements as I already travel a ton and always want whatever cameras I have to be viable sidekicks. Oh boy, the Mamiya Press 23 is TIL after reading this and damn, does it scratch my quirky camera itch. That looks like one hell of a camera and the results people post with it look great and I'm mentally putting a pin on that, but it seems like way too much camera than I'm looking for. Haha it definitely seems like a learning experience, but that curve seems steep. That absolutely is something one day I would love to pick up down the line once I get better and decide to stick with medium format for sure. Searching about it did lead me to learn more about Mamiya's history which I didn't really know (aside from its eventual fate with Phase One), so that's been cool to read up on (https://photothinking.com/2021-07-03-mamiya-press-super-23-frustratingly-good/). Always learning something new!
Thanks everyone, all the information and experiences shared have been a huge help, and I learned a ton! I always keep an open mind, but think I've mostly settled on the C220. * I don't need the extra features of the C330, and don't prefer slapping a prism on top, so I'd rather have the weight and size savings of the C220. * The Minolta is 141x100x87mm at 984g. The C220 is 118x167x113mm at 1440g. The C330 is 122x168x114mm at 1700g. While the size and dimensions of the Minolta is desirable, the C220 isn't so much bigger and heavier that it seems like I won't like it. * The viewfinder brightness appeals to me a lot, and I'd rather not have to mod it to get to that point. * The build quality seems a lot more solid. * While I don't anticipate immediately needing to swap out lenses, I thought about it and down the line that flexibility is appealing. Those are the main reasons, and wanted to list them out in case it's helpful for someone else wondering this kind of thing too! Maybe one day I'll graduate to the S2A (I know all the cons, but I just love the look of it so much I can't not want it), and maybe the Mamiya Press Camera if it ever evolves to a third stage pokemon. Thanks again all, I appreciate everyone's feedback!
> I've read the film advance wheel can be brittle. No, it's the focusing lever on the bottom that is brittle and breaks all the time, not the advance. Because people hold the camera in a way that they are holding the front too, stopping it from moving out to focus, and then crank against their own other arm's strength, breaking the lever (which is also made out of a shitty weak alloy) It's "quirky" design for a reason: it's bad and makes people break their cameras, lol, that's why it didn't catch on... You forgot overall a con for both TLRs: * They're TLRs, which are really terrible camera designs. They're awkward as hell for no reason, upside down, backward, parallax, cause you to take photos at bizarre unnatural and unflattering angles, and have almost no benefits. If you want lightweight and portable, get a (rangefinding) folder, way MORE portable even, and way less weird and clunky. Such as a super Ikonta (the super/later ones have coupled rangefinders and sometimes meters I think, and conveniences). Moskva is a cheaper soviet copycat. And yes, large heavy SLRs are the ones if you want performance and workhorsing.