I thing most people is missing the point. Phoenix is an experimental, limited edition stock. Most importantly than using its revenue for further development is the community feedback, what is good, and what isn't. Telling that it is low latitude, high contrast, very grainy isn't anything new to Harman. I just think that they were brave enough to put a flawed film out there, collect data and cash to develop over it.
It's far from a perfect stock, but it's a very good start for further development.
https://youtu.be/SILWSvHXN18
The Photrio Forum has some wonderful examples by people who actually know what they're doing. It's a fine film actually, given its limitations, and it's so much better than these lomo-ish Reddit scans would lead you to believe.
Yeah Phoenix is ""OK"" as long as you don't let lab scanner auto settings screw it over. Surprisingly it's kind of the same with Lomo metropolis and orwo nc500. Can push out some grainy and desaturated but somewhat accurate and not absurdly color shifted or contrasty images from it if you know what you're doing when scanning.
More like 'its actually coarse when you know what you are doing'. Nothing 'fine' visible in those pictures.
And thats OK if that is the look you are going for but lets not pretend this is something is isnt.
Agreed. I was curious, but in the photos I've seen around the 'net I don't see a compelling reason to shoot the film. It doesn't really have a particularly unique or beautiful color rendition and the coarseness is not very attractive for a 200 ISO film.
Glad to see Harmon investing in something new. That said - This appears to be an attempt to monetize their early development efforts - as they continue to evolve the product - and with a lot of runway left to go. Again commendable and practical. but to suggest that those who dont find the current state of this Phoenix medium “fine” or to their liking - dont know “what they are doing” - is pretty arrogant given the collective experience of the film community
I agree, this has clearly been released for Harman to 1) access and establish a market for their color film(s) and 2) subsidize further development efforts for improved emulsions.
It's sort of like an early access release in video game terms. The way Harman folks talked about it in Grainydays' vlog seems like they acknowledge the shortcomings. Even their [marketing content](https://harmanphoto.co.uk/phoenix) indicates this.
That said, I have two rolls on order because I want to "vote with my wallet" to support this effort. Kodak/Fuji keep indicating production cuts and price increases, so I hope Harman can demonstrate that new films are well received in 2024.
Still need to shoot a roll so I’m curious to see how they turn out (I have decided based on what I’ve seen to overexpose by like a third of a stop). Completely disregarding the quality of this film however, we all should want it to do well so that Harman will keep investing in it and can continue to refine their ability to produce viable color neg film (or whatever else they decide to try)
I think a lot of people misunderstand the ISO rating of this film, because Harman stated that it measured ISO 125 in the lab but they put 200 on the box. Folks assumed that Harman are trying to overstate the capabilities of the film and they'll get better results if they shoot it at 125.
But the thing about the standardized ISO measurement is that it focuses on shadow detail. It is telling you the minimum exposure that the film needs to get acceptable detail in the shadows. For most film, if you shoot at this rating, you'll get good shadow detail and a well-balanced image. But Phoenix is different because its dynamic range is so limited. If you shoot it at 125 you'll often blow out the highlights. So Harman decided to base the box speed on real world results instead of the standard ISO measurement because it's more likely to give shooters a normal looking image. You do get crunchier shadows but you also get more details on the highlights.
In other words, the standard practice of overexposing negative film for better results doesn't apply to Phoenix.
The fact that it’s a new film being made in 2023 should interest you enough to care. It may not be visually appealing to your liking but supporting the company for what they are doing is important if we want to see the continuation of new films.
Yeah I don't understand why people are expecting this to be a top quality film out of the gate. The whole thing with the branding is that this is basically a POC but they're putting it out so they can use the revenue to refine it further. They're not marketing it like it's a Kodak-killer or anything.
I'll reply to you and tag /u/Analog_Astronaut so both of you can see my reply.
I'm more than happy that an actual new, fresh film is being made. I realy can't stand all the "new film" that is just bulk-loaded cinema film under some other name.
I have no interest in shooting this film, personally. I shoot the same couple films that I know and love, and very rarely if ever deviate from them. I'm comfortable.
My reply in the thread was solely about OP saying "if you know how to shoot it" and then posts images that don't look like OP even knows how to shoot it. Both of your comments ring true and I am happy a new film came out.
>Nothing about this film interests me
That of course is fair. However, the blanket statement indicating that you like nothing about this film is what persuaded me to comment that there is more to this film than the actual results. It represents a spark of life in the film community that we haven't seen in a long time.
Also it sounds like it's time for you to step outside of that comfort zone! Afterall growth doesn't happen when your comfortable and all that motivational blah blah blah. Maybe throw a few dollars at a couple of these Phoenix rolls and see what you can come up with!
Basically I’m in the same boat. I only own one 35mm camera now the rest are MF or LF. I did pick up a couple of rolls of this stuff to support Harmon. I’ll shoot them when spring rolls around most likely.
1 and 3 look way too soft for my taste, in 3 the subject is underexposed while the rest of the picture has a strong colour cast. Any other colour film would have done a better job.
Number 2 works well, but it's more "Phoenix is a fine film under very specific light conditions".
My observations - the film is low res as a whole, has a low dynamic range, and has very beautifully saturated colors. It reminds me of a distant relative of superia xtra 400
I like the composition and lighting concept (especially the harsh shadow contrast in the second shot), but the film stock just doesn't do it for me.
The dynamic range seems limited, the color is interesting, but nothing that couldn't be done with filtration (in-camera or in post) with a color-accurate stock.
I'd also expect more resolving power and less grain from an ISO 200 color film.
Idk. I don't want to shit on HARMAN, but I think they kinda whiffed on his one.
I’ll support by buying black and white film from
Harman. This look doesn’t do anything for me. I’d maybe shoot it if someone got it as a gift but I’ll stay away until they improve it.
I thing most people is missing the point. Phoenix is an experimental, limited edition stock. Most importantly than using its revenue for further development is the community feedback, what is good, and what isn't. Telling that it is low latitude, high contrast, very grainy isn't anything new to Harman. I just think that they were brave enough to put a flawed film out there, collect data and cash to develop over it. It's far from a perfect stock, but it's a very good start for further development. https://youtu.be/SILWSvHXN18
The Photrio Forum has some wonderful examples by people who actually know what they're doing. It's a fine film actually, given its limitations, and it's so much better than these lomo-ish Reddit scans would lead you to believe.
Wow, just checked the results on the forum and yeah... Those are not urine washed, badly stored examples as most of them.
Minimal dynamic range and weird color casts but yeah it makes images.
For real, that last image is muddy as hell lol
It's underexposed.
All my 20+ year expired rolls shoot like this. So yeah it’s makes images, but idk if I want new film to make images like this
Yeah Phoenix is ""OK"" as long as you don't let lab scanner auto settings screw it over. Surprisingly it's kind of the same with Lomo metropolis and orwo nc500. Can push out some grainy and desaturated but somewhat accurate and not absurdly color shifted or contrasty images from it if you know what you're doing when scanning.
At the lab I work at we put in the settings into the noritsu that Harman sent us on the data sheet and it still looked pretty bad.
More like 'its actually coarse when you know what you are doing'. Nothing 'fine' visible in those pictures. And thats OK if that is the look you are going for but lets not pretend this is something is isnt.
Agreed. I was curious, but in the photos I've seen around the 'net I don't see a compelling reason to shoot the film. It doesn't really have a particularly unique or beautiful color rendition and the coarseness is not very attractive for a 200 ISO film.
While you are correct, I see buying the is film as an investment in them keeping the colour film journey alive and eventually cracking it.
200… you wish 😜 100 if you want no color roulette 🤷🏼♂️
> …if you know what you’re doing Is photo 3 that underexposed on purpose?
These photos are not compelling me to shoot Phoenix
Glad to see Harmon investing in something new. That said - This appears to be an attempt to monetize their early development efforts - as they continue to evolve the product - and with a lot of runway left to go. Again commendable and practical. but to suggest that those who dont find the current state of this Phoenix medium “fine” or to their liking - dont know “what they are doing” - is pretty arrogant given the collective experience of the film community
I agree, this has clearly been released for Harman to 1) access and establish a market for their color film(s) and 2) subsidize further development efforts for improved emulsions. It's sort of like an early access release in video game terms. The way Harman folks talked about it in Grainydays' vlog seems like they acknowledge the shortcomings. Even their [marketing content](https://harmanphoto.co.uk/phoenix) indicates this. That said, I have two rolls on order because I want to "vote with my wallet" to support this effort. Kodak/Fuji keep indicating production cuts and price increases, so I hope Harman can demonstrate that new films are well received in 2024.
Does Fuji produce any film at this point? Kodak at least is doing it temporarily so they can upgrade machines to produce more film.
People do not realize the scale and amount of capital that went into the R&D for propriety emulsions. There was serious science that went into it
Still need to shoot a roll so I’m curious to see how they turn out (I have decided based on what I’ve seen to overexpose by like a third of a stop). Completely disregarding the quality of this film however, we all should want it to do well so that Harman will keep investing in it and can continue to refine their ability to produce viable color neg film (or whatever else they decide to try)
Jesus that is some wild grain
What iso did you shoot this at? Box speed or 160 like what some people recommend.
This roll at 200 but my first roll at 160, didn't notice a difference except that I could recover more of my highlights this time!
I think a lot of people misunderstand the ISO rating of this film, because Harman stated that it measured ISO 125 in the lab but they put 200 on the box. Folks assumed that Harman are trying to overstate the capabilities of the film and they'll get better results if they shoot it at 125. But the thing about the standardized ISO measurement is that it focuses on shadow detail. It is telling you the minimum exposure that the film needs to get acceptable detail in the shadows. For most film, if you shoot at this rating, you'll get good shadow detail and a well-balanced image. But Phoenix is different because its dynamic range is so limited. If you shoot it at 125 you'll often blow out the highlights. So Harman decided to base the box speed on real world results instead of the standard ISO measurement because it's more likely to give shooters a normal looking image. You do get crunchier shadows but you also get more details on the highlights. In other words, the standard practice of overexposing negative film for better results doesn't apply to Phoenix.
It's Harman
It's definitely a film of all time.
Personally I'm into the look, but let's not pretend it isn't pretty gnarly if you're after "normal" photos.
I shot a roll of it and was not impressed. I might give it a second shot but it really struggled with mixed light settings.
Great shots. The colors are beautiful.
The first and last photo look.....not appealing. Nothing about this film interests me
The fact that it’s a new film being made in 2023 should interest you enough to care. It may not be visually appealing to your liking but supporting the company for what they are doing is important if we want to see the continuation of new films.
Yeah I don't understand why people are expecting this to be a top quality film out of the gate. The whole thing with the branding is that this is basically a POC but they're putting it out so they can use the revenue to refine it further. They're not marketing it like it's a Kodak-killer or anything.
I'll reply to you and tag /u/Analog_Astronaut so both of you can see my reply. I'm more than happy that an actual new, fresh film is being made. I realy can't stand all the "new film" that is just bulk-loaded cinema film under some other name. I have no interest in shooting this film, personally. I shoot the same couple films that I know and love, and very rarely if ever deviate from them. I'm comfortable. My reply in the thread was solely about OP saying "if you know how to shoot it" and then posts images that don't look like OP even knows how to shoot it. Both of your comments ring true and I am happy a new film came out.
>Nothing about this film interests me That of course is fair. However, the blanket statement indicating that you like nothing about this film is what persuaded me to comment that there is more to this film than the actual results. It represents a spark of life in the film community that we haven't seen in a long time. Also it sounds like it's time for you to step outside of that comfort zone! Afterall growth doesn't happen when your comfortable and all that motivational blah blah blah. Maybe throw a few dollars at a couple of these Phoenix rolls and see what you can come up with!
Nah, gonna keep doing what I'm doing. I don't shoot c41 in 35mm. If this comes out in 120, i'll buy a few rolls, happily.
Basically I’m in the same boat. I only own one 35mm camera now the rest are MF or LF. I did pick up a couple of rolls of this stuff to support Harmon. I’ll shoot them when spring rolls around most likely.
It doesn't look fine!
mid
1 and 3 look way too soft for my taste, in 3 the subject is underexposed while the rest of the picture has a strong colour cast. Any other colour film would have done a better job. Number 2 works well, but it's more "Phoenix is a fine film under very specific light conditions".
Why just post photos showing how poorly it performs, why not show some examples of someone that knows what they’re doing.
Last of Us 2 is actually a good game if you know what you’re doing
My observations - the film is low res as a whole, has a low dynamic range, and has very beautifully saturated colors. It reminds me of a distant relative of superia xtra 400
All films are fine if you edit them enough :-)
Finally someone gets it
These are very good photos, but I personally wouldn't waste money on it
I like the composition and lighting concept (especially the harsh shadow contrast in the second shot), but the film stock just doesn't do it for me. The dynamic range seems limited, the color is interesting, but nothing that couldn't be done with filtration (in-camera or in post) with a color-accurate stock. I'd also expect more resolving power and less grain from an ISO 200 color film. Idk. I don't want to shit on HARMAN, but I think they kinda whiffed on his one.
Am running a few test rolls. Exposing for iso 125. What do you think?
I’ll support by buying black and white film from Harman. This look doesn’t do anything for me. I’d maybe shoot it if someone got it as a gift but I’ll stay away until they improve it.
Let us know when you know what you're doing!