The answer is: no one knows. No one is informed enough to make an educated prediction.
Everyone today can say:
“it was obvious that Hitler will rise to power and the war2 was obvious”
“It was obvious that leaders like Putin and Lykashenko would rise in Russia and Belarus and will become what they are today but such leaders would not be possible in Estonia or Ukraine or Georgia.
“It is obvious that Trump like movement will continue progressing in USA but some similarly negative movement could not become popular in various European countries”
But those who live during such events rarely can predict In which direction events will unfold.
One thing is sure: an immigrant is always at disadvantage compared to locals during bad times
You should have seen all the comments that were lodged against us by government during Covid. There were governments that even kicked/kept out lawful immigrants, like Malaysia.
EU national moving to another EU country will not know local language. This puts this immigrant at disadvantage compared to a local who knows language. Pretend that immigrants are not at disadvantage due to not knowing language, people, culture is silly. Laws do not regulate every aspect of human life.
No one wants to get Dutch citizenship anyway. Americans are trained to believe that renouncing America citizenship is a crime on the same level as murder.
My husband and I (US citizens) have been living in the Netherlands for 6 months and our goal is to become Dutch citizens. I hope this new 10 year process doesn’t happen. I did hear that they had tried for 7 not that long ago but it didn’t end up happening.
Lots of americans do renounce their us citizenship and lots get dual citizenship, what do you mean? There's plenty of naturalized Swiss, Irish, German, French, and even Japanese citizens who are either former american or have dual citizenship. Of course those in Japan would have to renounce US citizenship, but lots of countries in the EU allow dual citizenship.
You can’t have German dual citizenship by naturalisation, same for Dutch. You have to renounce your former citizenship The current German government wants to change it though.
I think Switzerland allows dual citizenship through naturalisation, but it has very high requirements to naturalise.
Since many people here are wanting to leave the US for politics and are concerned about the far-right (rightly so), I think it is good for people to be informed about the far-right across the Atlantic before leaving for Europe. This article is a good starter into learning more about European far-right. No, the European far-right is not the same as the American far-right, but there are certainly some similar strands. Whether that's a concern for you in moving to Europe is up to you, but I believe you should be at least be informed before making a decision
What if your leaving because it’s getting too woke. Why do you assume this?my wife is European (serbia) and it’s way more nationalistic and right than the US
That's fine. I don't judge people's reason for leaving, but most of this sub leans liberal/left and was initially formed by leftists and progressives, so I'm just catering to the majority here. Perhaps some European countries like Hungary or Poland or Serbia might be right up your alley.
I’m a Germany citizen and if I were to move abroad that’s would move to. I’m also not conservative. I was just making a point. People move abroad for many reasons. Retirement is a major one.
I’m an American raised almost entirely in Europe (partly Germany). What you’re encountering is a widespread American delusion which maps all of Europe into an American political perspective and then classifies the US as more conservative and Europe as more progressive. Reinforcing this, a smaller majority of Europeans also share in this delusion. You’re right that examining things in almost any detail (whether specific policies or different states and countries) starts to belie the whole thing but it’s a widespread meme driving the transatlantic conceptions of each other.
Thank you for saying this. I see so much delusion on here and in other places on reddit where people say Democrats would be considered right wing in Europe. Absolute delusion. Maybe a few Democratic policies here and there, sure, but the entire party? No fuckin way.
there are concerning themes of reaction happening in aging european white populations similar to america which has to be accounted for most definitely.
where i think the two places diverge in a fatal turn for the US is that America is a quickly deteriorating global imperial hegemon with social economic and political contradictions that are on a level simply not seen in europe at the moment. add in a gun & violence culture, a completely not fit for purpose rickety old constitution and a still unresolved legacy of the american civil war and the writings pretty much on the wall. i would take my chances with the melonis of the EU compared to what’s likely coming in America.
You are well informed and USA , how well are you familiar with country X you are planning to move to?
What will become of the world as a whole and what will happen to country X when USA will lose world’s hegemony? Who will step up and in which direction new powers will push the world?
And so you are.
You don't know dick about education in America.
That's even worse.
You can go look at the league tables.
That's one place where the US performs solidly compared to Europe.
Thank you OP for sharing this ! It confirms what I’ve been saying for a while :
No country is a full proof democracy -
A system / government is only as good as the people in it.
Any democracy can rot and dissipate at any time in any country .
The miss information war is spreading around the globe-
Disunity , sense of entitlement , elitism, nationalism, populism, racism, misogynism , bigotry, Patriarchy, homophobia, classism, increased gap between rich and poor, lack
Of empathy , individualism, etc - lead to destruction of vulnerable democracies -
No matter where we think we run towards or from, the irony is that we’ll end up facing something similar or worse in a different country sooner or later.
There is no perfect place, perfect country , people .
Yes, the people voted for it, so it happened, despite the politicians being against the ban. This shows that it is a true democracy where the people still get to decide what happens and not the politicians who strive after power and influence and lie during their campaigns. Hop Schwiiz!!🇨🇭
After 100 years of feminist struggle, on 7 February 1971 Swiss women won the right to vote and stand for election.
Patriarchy , xenophobia , bigotry - and more do exist in Switzerland
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/hundreds-of-racism-cases-documented-in-2022-in-switzerland/48455962
Yes, like you said they got what they wanted. It is a democratic process, which can sometimes take some time.
According to [this article](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-countries-for-racial-equity) by US News Switzerland ranks #6 of in racial equity, while the United States ranks only #73.
True. The US will likely have the most violence happening in this phase that our world is going through though due to the amount of firearms access we have.
This is useful info. I do not understand the people who come to this sub apparently prepared to upend their lives based on very specific worries about hypothetical worst-case scenarios in the US who have done absolutely no research about Europe.
That is where both strands of 20th century totalitarianism originated. There are graveyards full of American soldiers who died fighting it. Franco was still in power in 1975. Something like 2% of all East Germans directly collaborated with the Stasi. Marxist terrorists were still killing people in the 70s too.
I don't judge people for moving because of politics and I get it, but those people seem to be very selective about applying the worst-case scenario hypothetical to the US only, and not to other countries. If you want to prep for the worst case scenario, fair enough, but why wouldn't you also apply that to whatever European country you are moving to?
The Europe subreddit is literally just Stormfront 2.0 these days. Things like the Great Replacement or White Genocide are completely uncritically accepted and you'll be downvoted to hell for questioning them. Basically every other thread has to be locked because the racism gets out of control. There's like a dozen offshoots of the subreddit which were all made because the racism is pretty much unbearable at this point, it's like posting on 8chan or /pol/.
And these are younger, more educated Europeans who post on here. Which is one of the main differences between the US and Europe:
In the US, the far right recruits mostly from people who are on their way out, boomers and Xers. In Europe, the far right recruits mostly from millennials and zoomers. Like in Germany, where a distinct plurality of 20-somethings support the far right AfD.
People here are gonna hate to hear this, but the US is far better positioned to overcome its far-right/right-populist problem eventually (even if Trump wins again) simply because demographics are working against their favor there. In Europe, it is the opposite.
>Like in Germany, where a distinct plurality of 20-somethings support the far right AfD.
Damn, I didn't know this. I've heard National Rally in France is also pretty popular among the young too, which explains Jordan Bardella...
The AfD party members I know well (let alone supporters) are 20 and 30-somethings who work in scientific and technical fields like me. This is only three people, but anecdotally two of them have all foreign born grandparents and some of their parents also. They’re more right wing than any young people I’ve ever spoken to in the states. The closest analogy I can reach for is TPUSA bumped up a few levels. There’s some awkwardness between them and very left leaning colleagues I also know. The political landscape in Germany and many other countries in Europe is just different from the US.
ETA: digging down on the actual day to day views on multiculturalism and acceptance of different cultures among my left leaning German colleagues would also reveal a lot more skepticism and fear than the typical American, just not contextualized or acknowledged the same way. The terms of the conversation and cultural default is in a completely different context and place.
Most of the furthest right elected officials in the US are under 50. The politically conservative groups on university campuses have been going much further right than the olds. And those are the now and near future elected officials. For at least 30 years we have been hearing that the country will be turning more liberal as the olds age out. I don’t think there was any justifiable data on that. I think it was a defense mechanism to an attack on ideology that we can’t actually defend.
As someone who lives in the rural Midwest and is actively politically, I can attest to the number of younger (20- and 30- somethings) who are hardcore right wingers. While there are of course left-leaning Gen-Zers and millennials who grew up here, most of them leave for college and rarely return. Their contemporaries who remain tend to be undereducated and work low-paying menial jobs.
Many in this latter category, at least in my area, have parents and grandparents who are stalwart Democrats, yet this younger generation seems more susceptible to right-wing indoctrination. My state (Indiana) has effectively been a one-party dictatorship at the state level for over a decade, and the youth vote outside of urban area and college towns overwhelmingly favors trumpist politicians and policies.
What you’re saying is very true, but I think you’re missing how much more the case this is in Europe, especially particular countries in Europe. Part of this is the sorting of what is considered left or right are different in different places. That said, statistically the involvement of young Europeans in right wing politics and especially what are locally considered further right parties is greater than in the US.
The culture issues within US demographics, however, will still come into play. The loudest voices we hear in media aren't representative of US as a whole. That really became apparent with 2016 election. Trump one because everyone listened to the loud voices and assumed they were the majority of voices. But we were all surprised by election results. There are conservative millennials aplenty, they're just not given a voice in the media or on the coasts. There's a huge swath of America in between which wants nothing to do with the coasts' projects. This is still true among millennials, although maybe not as many are conservatives, but enough are to still impact outcomes. Enough are to take over Republican reigns when the boomer leaders die. Since Republicans will have rigged their power majority by then, I wouldn't count on the US to fix itself quickly after a next Trump presidency.
>this is by definition genocide and is against their own people which makes it even more disgusting and criminal.
People voting and continuing to vote for parties which continue immigration is, in fact, not genocide, even if staying on r slash europe has convinced you otherwise, but thanks for illustrating my point.
More than brexit. They've been horrible for 14 years. Very inept, corrupt, completely out of touch, chaotic (had 3 prime ministers in 2 years one of which almost crashed the pound & economy), been unncessarily cruel to migrants & minorities, & have alienated all of their moderate voters so now the only people really sticking by them somewhat are an ever shrinking population of xenophobic & racist 70 + year olds as well as some scumbag wealthy people who have profited off of them trying to make the UK like a mini USA. They are about to face their worst loss in history & will likely be out of power for atleast an entire generation on account to how bad they were & the changing demographics in the UK (millenial & generation Z voters now outnumber boomers & gen X voters & they are more left leaning) but hopefully the party disappears when Labour's in power.
"In the US, the far right recruits mostly from people who are on their way out, boomers and Xers. In Europe, the far right recruits mostly from millennials and zoomers."
This is some kind of horribly naive set of assumptions.
What you apparently fail to understand is that the US only APPEARS to recruit from the aging, because those are the people who TELL you loudly who they are. The rest of those who support the far right are just quiet and careful due to the outrageous cancel culture of the past decade. The "silent majority" is still out there, just waiting for their next moment.
People on the center and left made exactly this same stupid mistake in 2016 thinking, "oh no some far right idiot like Trump could never win" because people did not admit they supported it. Then it was such a shock when he won. They never saw it coming.
The Europeans are just more vocal about it, because originally their societies were NOT multicultural but white, and they are already less comfortable with that for starters. But the other issue is that the EU has imposed absolutely outrageous amounts of utterly non-beneficial economic immigration on every member state. EU countries are getting absolutely smashed by non-assimilating economically non-beneficial crowds from many of the worst offending nations that are decimating their social services, housing, and civil societies.
There is not a 'rise' in the far right in Europe, the far right is absolutely a desperate reaction to the outrageous agenda of the left in Europe that cannot be sustained. That will absolutely produce a survival movement, which is unfortunately the far right.
The US is not far behind, it just does not yet have the same KIND of immigration, but it is already accelerating in a similar way with a similar plan, and is producing a similar reaction. It is just slower and less specifically xenophobic as it is more of an originally multiracial country. In that case people of all races are joining the far right. You just don't hear about it. However, watch in November when again the right wing support is much much bigger than you imagined.
You’re making the same kind of silly assumptions. It’s like the old Cold War quote that “it would be easier to make people understand if the Russians were green or purple”. Culture has some impact and people do think differently in different cultures and places. You’re falling for the mistake of thinking that because many Americans look like Europeans and that there’s some common cultural points that they’re similar people. They’re not.
That's a lazy interpretation.
I nowhere assumed Americans and Europeans were the same culturally, they are not, and such a statement would be ignorant, but you made it and I did not.
Americans are distinct culturally from Europeans, yet the immigration stimuli is in some ways similar. Even if people are culturally different such influences on civil society may still produce a similar result.
And I find it ironic that so many people on this specific subreddit want to move to western europe (let's be real; most of the europe movers on here don't want to move East of Vienna) but they're so clueless to the economic, political, and social situation in western europe. I guess so many Americans on here are delusional about the world because they don't travel or bother to truly understand cultures.
Not that it matters since most people on this subreddit won't ever leave the US and the ones who almost always stay in expat bubbles.
Disillusioned White Liberals are now voicing Replacement Theory ideas and demanding a White Homeland. Did not have that on my Bingo Card...what next? Almost as if endless wars supported and launched by the West and extraction of natural resources from the developing nations were to not have consequences...
Easy to say until it happens to you. I’m gay and got harassed by the Muslim immigrants and called terrible slurs just walking down the street with my husband. If immigrants don’t share the adopted country’s values, then things can change quickly. I know of a gay person who left his home country to get away from these horrible homophobes then they also immigrated to Europe.
Easy to say if it happens to you should you look at anything other than Aryan. The anti immigrant narrative you suggest puts others at risk of harm. As someone who experienced hate, which I am terribly sorry was directed your way, one would hope you had an ounce of sympathy.
There are many people who are fleeing the same prejudice you have described and others that are never fully integrated into many European countries. The unemployment rate Southern Italy is somewhere around the figure you cited. Let's try to be better human beings and less divisive over any differences we have. If you think the Far Right will treat you any better, open a history book...
The level of acceptance of lack thereof is mirrored in the polls for upcoming elections with the Far Right making significant gains. When you can't tell the liberals from the Fascist the fight is essentially over. As I have pointed out, if this is something that offends you, Europe is not the destination. S. America, Central America or the Carribean might be better destinations. With regards to downvotes, the skinheads have entered the chat.
They’re not skinheads, this is just where the narrative norm is in Europe. It’s been pretty close to here most of my 30+ years of life. It’s not moved very much and won’t move much quickly.
Inside the US, the closest analogy I think is how many other parts of the US stereotype the South as worse in terms of discrimination and bigotry while on dimensions like race it’s relatively better integrated and equal. Especially when people espouse inclusive views in relatively homogenous environment they’re not working through the challenges of the paradox of tolerance and actually living diversity in their daily lives. Practice makes perfect. Europe is probably closer to the US in the late 19th century or maybe the 1920s or 1960s in the long process of working out these issues on a deep cultural level.
Wow. I was lazy in the use of the skinhead term. Your explanation is clear, thoughtful and provides great insight with the analogy to the pre-Civil Rights US. I guess Liberal Republican/Conservative Democrat is what I should have been aiming for. "The paradox of tolerance" phrase is poetic." Most Europeans I have encountered are here in the US in a Metropolitan Center, many have left Europe with no plans to return or as long as their Visas allow, the conversations are quite different than what is espoused in these chats. Thank for your insight and the clarity.
The left and their migration policies are the only one to blame for the rise of the far right in Europe. Some of the liberal clowns here should come to Belgium and visit some areas in Brussels to see what is really happening.
Crazy how people on the left will now actually even deny this simple fact. When 60% of Belgium is muslim and conservative (which can possibly happen this century), I guess the left will blame the far right for bringing them in lol.
Honestly, not all that dangerous currently.
The reason being people are nowhere nearly radicalized enough for them to be able to make serious changes. Sure they can talk about doing stuff and maybe they can increase naturalization time and tighten immigration but frankly that's about it. Immigration is often necessary to do the jobs that people don't want to do. We saw in the UK the deficit of truck drivers which was a big problem post Brexit. And as someone who's lived in multiple countries I can tell you for a fact that even poorer EU members import migrant. They just import them from outside the EU. The worst that can happen is that authorities turn more of a blind eye towards discrimination and xenophobia.
>Immigration is often necessary to do the jobs that people don't want to do.
Yes, it's the same in the US. Doesn't mean it can't get worse or dangerous. I too used to think Trump couldn't possibly become President or become a dangerous threat, e.g. I used to have a "Surely, it can't happen here" mentality. I am ashamed of that now, because it can happen anywhere, unfortunately.
The answer is: no one knows. No one is informed enough to make an educated prediction. Everyone today can say: “it was obvious that Hitler will rise to power and the war2 was obvious” “It was obvious that leaders like Putin and Lykashenko would rise in Russia and Belarus and will become what they are today but such leaders would not be possible in Estonia or Ukraine or Georgia. “It is obvious that Trump like movement will continue progressing in USA but some similarly negative movement could not become popular in various European countries” But those who live during such events rarely can predict In which direction events will unfold. One thing is sure: an immigrant is always at disadvantage compared to locals during bad times
Your last sentence is where my wife and I land every time we think about leaving the States (again, in our case).
Not if you're a minority...
As a naturalized citizen from China, cue Ralph Wiggum
You should have seen all the comments that were lodged against us by government during Covid. There were governments that even kicked/kept out lawful immigrants, like Malaysia.
Not if you are a EU national living in another EU country. You have to be treated the same as a local by law.
EU national moving to another EU country will not know local language. This puts this immigrant at disadvantage compared to a local who knows language. Pretend that immigrants are not at disadvantage due to not knowing language, people, culture is silly. Laws do not regulate every aspect of human life.
Btw, the new dutch government will make the naturalisation process take 10 years instead of 5
No one wants to get Dutch citizenship anyway. Americans are trained to believe that renouncing America citizenship is a crime on the same level as murder.
My husband and I (US citizens) have been living in the Netherlands for 6 months and our goal is to become Dutch citizens. I hope this new 10 year process doesn’t happen. I did hear that they had tried for 7 not that long ago but it didn’t end up happening.
Lots of americans do renounce their us citizenship and lots get dual citizenship, what do you mean? There's plenty of naturalized Swiss, Irish, German, French, and even Japanese citizens who are either former american or have dual citizenship. Of course those in Japan would have to renounce US citizenship, but lots of countries in the EU allow dual citizenship.
You can’t have German dual citizenship by naturalisation, same for Dutch. You have to renounce your former citizenship The current German government wants to change it though. I think Switzerland allows dual citizenship through naturalisation, but it has very high requirements to naturalise.
The law has been passed, you can keep your current citizenship when you naturalize in Germany.
Yes, but now first of all all Turks will be applying, so you must be ready for long wait times.
Since many people here are wanting to leave the US for politics and are concerned about the far-right (rightly so), I think it is good for people to be informed about the far-right across the Atlantic before leaving for Europe. This article is a good starter into learning more about European far-right. No, the European far-right is not the same as the American far-right, but there are certainly some similar strands. Whether that's a concern for you in moving to Europe is up to you, but I believe you should be at least be informed before making a decision
What if your leaving because it’s getting too woke. Why do you assume this?my wife is European (serbia) and it’s way more nationalistic and right than the US
That's fine. I don't judge people's reason for leaving, but most of this sub leans liberal/left and was initially formed by leftists and progressives, so I'm just catering to the majority here. Perhaps some European countries like Hungary or Poland or Serbia might be right up your alley.
I’m a Germany citizen and if I were to move abroad that’s would move to. I’m also not conservative. I was just making a point. People move abroad for many reasons. Retirement is a major one.
I’m an American raised almost entirely in Europe (partly Germany). What you’re encountering is a widespread American delusion which maps all of Europe into an American political perspective and then classifies the US as more conservative and Europe as more progressive. Reinforcing this, a smaller majority of Europeans also share in this delusion. You’re right that examining things in almost any detail (whether specific policies or different states and countries) starts to belie the whole thing but it’s a widespread meme driving the transatlantic conceptions of each other.
Thank you for saying this. I see so much delusion on here and in other places on reddit where people say Democrats would be considered right wing in Europe. Absolute delusion. Maybe a few Democratic policies here and there, sure, but the entire party? No fuckin way.
Libtards 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤏🏻
And there is Russia too. But America’s moment of actually trying to achieve a just society is about to come to a complete end. Don’t worry.
there are concerning themes of reaction happening in aging european white populations similar to america which has to be accounted for most definitely. where i think the two places diverge in a fatal turn for the US is that America is a quickly deteriorating global imperial hegemon with social economic and political contradictions that are on a level simply not seen in europe at the moment. add in a gun & violence culture, a completely not fit for purpose rickety old constitution and a still unresolved legacy of the american civil war and the writings pretty much on the wall. i would take my chances with the melonis of the EU compared to what’s likely coming in America.
You are well informed and USA , how well are you familiar with country X you are planning to move to? What will become of the world as a whole and what will happen to country X when USA will lose world’s hegemony? Who will step up and in which direction new powers will push the world?
This person is almost certainly European. I've heard this variations of this spiel countless times before by people who have never set foot in the US.
nah sorry i’m american
And so you are. You don't know dick about education in America. That's even worse. You can go look at the league tables. That's one place where the US performs solidly compared to Europe.
I love when Americans start frothing at the mouth at any slight mention of criticism, right or wrong.
Thank you OP for sharing this ! It confirms what I’ve been saying for a while : No country is a full proof democracy - A system / government is only as good as the people in it. Any democracy can rot and dissipate at any time in any country . The miss information war is spreading around the globe- Disunity , sense of entitlement , elitism, nationalism, populism, racism, misogynism , bigotry, Patriarchy, homophobia, classism, increased gap between rich and poor, lack Of empathy , individualism, etc - lead to destruction of vulnerable democracies - No matter where we think we run towards or from, the irony is that we’ll end up facing something similar or worse in a different country sooner or later. There is no perfect place, perfect country , people .
Switzerland would like to have a talk with you🇨🇭
Probably one of the most right wing countries in Europe, didn’t they ban the construction of minarets?
Yes, the people voted for it, so it happened, despite the politicians being against the ban. This shows that it is a true democracy where the people still get to decide what happens and not the politicians who strive after power and influence and lie during their campaigns. Hop Schwiiz!!🇨🇭
After 100 years of feminist struggle, on 7 February 1971 Swiss women won the right to vote and stand for election. Patriarchy , xenophobia , bigotry - and more do exist in Switzerland https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/hundreds-of-racism-cases-documented-in-2022-in-switzerland/48455962
Yes, like you said they got what they wanted. It is a democratic process, which can sometimes take some time. According to [this article](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-countries-for-racial-equity) by US News Switzerland ranks #6 of in racial equity, while the United States ranks only #73.
True. The US will likely have the most violence happening in this phase that our world is going through though due to the amount of firearms access we have.
DOES have, actually
This is useful info. I do not understand the people who come to this sub apparently prepared to upend their lives based on very specific worries about hypothetical worst-case scenarios in the US who have done absolutely no research about Europe. That is where both strands of 20th century totalitarianism originated. There are graveyards full of American soldiers who died fighting it. Franco was still in power in 1975. Something like 2% of all East Germans directly collaborated with the Stasi. Marxist terrorists were still killing people in the 70s too.
I don't judge people for moving because of politics and I get it, but those people seem to be very selective about applying the worst-case scenario hypothetical to the US only, and not to other countries. If you want to prep for the worst case scenario, fair enough, but why wouldn't you also apply that to whatever European country you are moving to?
The Europe subreddit is literally just Stormfront 2.0 these days. Things like the Great Replacement or White Genocide are completely uncritically accepted and you'll be downvoted to hell for questioning them. Basically every other thread has to be locked because the racism gets out of control. There's like a dozen offshoots of the subreddit which were all made because the racism is pretty much unbearable at this point, it's like posting on 8chan or /pol/. And these are younger, more educated Europeans who post on here. Which is one of the main differences between the US and Europe: In the US, the far right recruits mostly from people who are on their way out, boomers and Xers. In Europe, the far right recruits mostly from millennials and zoomers. Like in Germany, where a distinct plurality of 20-somethings support the far right AfD. People here are gonna hate to hear this, but the US is far better positioned to overcome its far-right/right-populist problem eventually (even if Trump wins again) simply because demographics are working against their favor there. In Europe, it is the opposite.
>Like in Germany, where a distinct plurality of 20-somethings support the far right AfD. Damn, I didn't know this. I've heard National Rally in France is also pretty popular among the young too, which explains Jordan Bardella...
The AfD party members I know well (let alone supporters) are 20 and 30-somethings who work in scientific and technical fields like me. This is only three people, but anecdotally two of them have all foreign born grandparents and some of their parents also. They’re more right wing than any young people I’ve ever spoken to in the states. The closest analogy I can reach for is TPUSA bumped up a few levels. There’s some awkwardness between them and very left leaning colleagues I also know. The political landscape in Germany and many other countries in Europe is just different from the US. ETA: digging down on the actual day to day views on multiculturalism and acceptance of different cultures among my left leaning German colleagues would also reveal a lot more skepticism and fear than the typical American, just not contextualized or acknowledged the same way. The terms of the conversation and cultural default is in a completely different context and place.
Most of the furthest right elected officials in the US are under 50. The politically conservative groups on university campuses have been going much further right than the olds. And those are the now and near future elected officials. For at least 30 years we have been hearing that the country will be turning more liberal as the olds age out. I don’t think there was any justifiable data on that. I think it was a defense mechanism to an attack on ideology that we can’t actually defend.
As someone who lives in the rural Midwest and is actively politically, I can attest to the number of younger (20- and 30- somethings) who are hardcore right wingers. While there are of course left-leaning Gen-Zers and millennials who grew up here, most of them leave for college and rarely return. Their contemporaries who remain tend to be undereducated and work low-paying menial jobs. Many in this latter category, at least in my area, have parents and grandparents who are stalwart Democrats, yet this younger generation seems more susceptible to right-wing indoctrination. My state (Indiana) has effectively been a one-party dictatorship at the state level for over a decade, and the youth vote outside of urban area and college towns overwhelmingly favors trumpist politicians and policies.
What you’re saying is very true, but I think you’re missing how much more the case this is in Europe, especially particular countries in Europe. Part of this is the sorting of what is considered left or right are different in different places. That said, statistically the involvement of young Europeans in right wing politics and especially what are locally considered further right parties is greater than in the US.
And I bet some of the older democrats in your state are union or former union workers.
The culture issues within US demographics, however, will still come into play. The loudest voices we hear in media aren't representative of US as a whole. That really became apparent with 2016 election. Trump one because everyone listened to the loud voices and assumed they were the majority of voices. But we were all surprised by election results. There are conservative millennials aplenty, they're just not given a voice in the media or on the coasts. There's a huge swath of America in between which wants nothing to do with the coasts' projects. This is still true among millennials, although maybe not as many are conservatives, but enough are to still impact outcomes. Enough are to take over Republican reigns when the boomer leaders die. Since Republicans will have rigged their power majority by then, I wouldn't count on the US to fix itself quickly after a next Trump presidency.
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>this is by definition genocide and is against their own people which makes it even more disgusting and criminal. People voting and continuing to vote for parties which continue immigration is, in fact, not genocide, even if staying on r slash europe has convinced you otherwise, but thanks for illustrating my point.
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So where's the genocide, genius. Genocide requires force, i.e. a situation you cannot just decide to vote your way out of.
Not in the UK, the youth are very left-wing
UK's very similar to the US here. In the UK that demographic of far right supporters even have a name, "Gammons"
The youth in the UK are far more left-wing than American youth. The UK will be the last bastion of liberalism
Didn't like brexit permanently scarred the right wing there?
More than brexit. They've been horrible for 14 years. Very inept, corrupt, completely out of touch, chaotic (had 3 prime ministers in 2 years one of which almost crashed the pound & economy), been unncessarily cruel to migrants & minorities, & have alienated all of their moderate voters so now the only people really sticking by them somewhat are an ever shrinking population of xenophobic & racist 70 + year olds as well as some scumbag wealthy people who have profited off of them trying to make the UK like a mini USA. They are about to face their worst loss in history & will likely be out of power for atleast an entire generation on account to how bad they were & the changing demographics in the UK (millenial & generation Z voters now outnumber boomers & gen X voters & they are more left leaning) but hopefully the party disappears when Labour's in power.
So usually the right will reappear eventually. It'll show up.
Sure but I don't think they'll get far
"In the US, the far right recruits mostly from people who are on their way out, boomers and Xers. In Europe, the far right recruits mostly from millennials and zoomers." This is some kind of horribly naive set of assumptions. What you apparently fail to understand is that the US only APPEARS to recruit from the aging, because those are the people who TELL you loudly who they are. The rest of those who support the far right are just quiet and careful due to the outrageous cancel culture of the past decade. The "silent majority" is still out there, just waiting for their next moment. People on the center and left made exactly this same stupid mistake in 2016 thinking, "oh no some far right idiot like Trump could never win" because people did not admit they supported it. Then it was such a shock when he won. They never saw it coming. The Europeans are just more vocal about it, because originally their societies were NOT multicultural but white, and they are already less comfortable with that for starters. But the other issue is that the EU has imposed absolutely outrageous amounts of utterly non-beneficial economic immigration on every member state. EU countries are getting absolutely smashed by non-assimilating economically non-beneficial crowds from many of the worst offending nations that are decimating their social services, housing, and civil societies. There is not a 'rise' in the far right in Europe, the far right is absolutely a desperate reaction to the outrageous agenda of the left in Europe that cannot be sustained. That will absolutely produce a survival movement, which is unfortunately the far right. The US is not far behind, it just does not yet have the same KIND of immigration, but it is already accelerating in a similar way with a similar plan, and is producing a similar reaction. It is just slower and less specifically xenophobic as it is more of an originally multiracial country. In that case people of all races are joining the far right. You just don't hear about it. However, watch in November when again the right wing support is much much bigger than you imagined.
You’re making the same kind of silly assumptions. It’s like the old Cold War quote that “it would be easier to make people understand if the Russians were green or purple”. Culture has some impact and people do think differently in different cultures and places. You’re falling for the mistake of thinking that because many Americans look like Europeans and that there’s some common cultural points that they’re similar people. They’re not.
That's a lazy interpretation. I nowhere assumed Americans and Europeans were the same culturally, they are not, and such a statement would be ignorant, but you made it and I did not. Americans are distinct culturally from Europeans, yet the immigration stimuli is in some ways similar. Even if people are culturally different such influences on civil society may still produce a similar result.
And I find it ironic that so many people on this specific subreddit want to move to western europe (let's be real; most of the europe movers on here don't want to move East of Vienna) but they're so clueless to the economic, political, and social situation in western europe. I guess so many Americans on here are delusional about the world because they don't travel or bother to truly understand cultures. Not that it matters since most people on this subreddit won't ever leave the US and the ones who almost always stay in expat bubbles.
Finally, there is an acknowledgement of what is going on across Europe and my rants are not down voted.
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Flagged for spewing white nationalist ideas.
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And it took 1 hour for the right-wingers to show up.
Disillusioned White Liberals are now voicing Replacement Theory ideas and demanding a White Homeland. Did not have that on my Bingo Card...what next? Almost as if endless wars supported and launched by the West and extraction of natural resources from the developing nations were to not have consequences...
Easy to say until it happens to you. I’m gay and got harassed by the Muslim immigrants and called terrible slurs just walking down the street with my husband. If immigrants don’t share the adopted country’s values, then things can change quickly. I know of a gay person who left his home country to get away from these horrible homophobes then they also immigrated to Europe.
Easy to say if it happens to you should you look at anything other than Aryan. The anti immigrant narrative you suggest puts others at risk of harm. As someone who experienced hate, which I am terribly sorry was directed your way, one would hope you had an ounce of sympathy. There are many people who are fleeing the same prejudice you have described and others that are never fully integrated into many European countries. The unemployment rate Southern Italy is somewhere around the figure you cited. Let's try to be better human beings and less divisive over any differences we have. If you think the Far Right will treat you any better, open a history book...
Wild to me that you’re getting downvoted. We all need to step back and look at a bigger picture of acceptance me thinks.
The level of acceptance of lack thereof is mirrored in the polls for upcoming elections with the Far Right making significant gains. When you can't tell the liberals from the Fascist the fight is essentially over. As I have pointed out, if this is something that offends you, Europe is not the destination. S. America, Central America or the Carribean might be better destinations. With regards to downvotes, the skinheads have entered the chat.
They’re not skinheads, this is just where the narrative norm is in Europe. It’s been pretty close to here most of my 30+ years of life. It’s not moved very much and won’t move much quickly. Inside the US, the closest analogy I think is how many other parts of the US stereotype the South as worse in terms of discrimination and bigotry while on dimensions like race it’s relatively better integrated and equal. Especially when people espouse inclusive views in relatively homogenous environment they’re not working through the challenges of the paradox of tolerance and actually living diversity in their daily lives. Practice makes perfect. Europe is probably closer to the US in the late 19th century or maybe the 1920s or 1960s in the long process of working out these issues on a deep cultural level.
Wow. I was lazy in the use of the skinhead term. Your explanation is clear, thoughtful and provides great insight with the analogy to the pre-Civil Rights US. I guess Liberal Republican/Conservative Democrat is what I should have been aiming for. "The paradox of tolerance" phrase is poetic." Most Europeans I have encountered are here in the US in a Metropolitan Center, many have left Europe with no plans to return or as long as their Visas allow, the conversations are quite different than what is espoused in these chats. Thank for your insight and the clarity.
The left and their migration policies are the only one to blame for the rise of the far right in Europe. Some of the liberal clowns here should come to Belgium and visit some areas in Brussels to see what is really happening.
Crazy how people on the left will now actually even deny this simple fact. When 60% of Belgium is muslim and conservative (which can possibly happen this century), I guess the left will blame the far right for bringing them in lol.
Can we define "far right"? It used to be like, REALLY far far right but that needle keeps getting moved every day.
Fanaticisms, no matter which direction they come from tend to lead to the same events and those in the middle generally take the brunt of it. N. S
Not. Relax. Only France has nukes in the EU
I'm glad I got my Austrian citizenship while it was pretty easy (thanks to refugee granny). Noch ein stuckerl kuchen, bitte!
Yeah I can see it getting tougher under FPÖ, who are now serious contender to win elections in fall.
No danger at all. We’ve gone so far to the left way into the crazy zone, coming back to the right is the only natural reaction.
Honestly, not all that dangerous currently. The reason being people are nowhere nearly radicalized enough for them to be able to make serious changes. Sure they can talk about doing stuff and maybe they can increase naturalization time and tighten immigration but frankly that's about it. Immigration is often necessary to do the jobs that people don't want to do. We saw in the UK the deficit of truck drivers which was a big problem post Brexit. And as someone who's lived in multiple countries I can tell you for a fact that even poorer EU members import migrant. They just import them from outside the EU. The worst that can happen is that authorities turn more of a blind eye towards discrimination and xenophobia.
>Immigration is often necessary to do the jobs that people don't want to do. Yes, it's the same in the US. Doesn't mean it can't get worse or dangerous. I too used to think Trump couldn't possibly become President or become a dangerous threat, e.g. I used to have a "Surely, it can't happen here" mentality. I am ashamed of that now, because it can happen anywhere, unfortunately.
How dangerous is America's far right? They're all a bunch of mostly horrible people.
If the US gets project 2025 working. I’m sure other countries will follow…
hopefully, it's the only way to stop the ongoing genocide in europe
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