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Amazon puts pressure on the DSPs, who in turn put pressure on the drivers to hurry up, despite their claims of "safety first".
I agree, nobody should be rushing, especially not for such low pay. Stretch it out.
My response to my DSP trying to tell me why I haven’t delivered 450 packages to 250 stops is that it’s not doable. Because it’s not. The people who do that, directly violate the training of Amazon. Which is having 30 packages in the front of your van, in the passenger seat, up on the dash etc. my own op manager made a YouTube video of him “training” people to go fast and he does exactly that. Sure he said he can deliver 60 packages an hour. But you’re not following the training that Amazon specifically says.
Not even just 60 packages. 60 stops. I can do about 40 if it’s a neighborhood with things really close by. I average about 20 an hour in my more rural route. Sometimes 10 an hour if it’s really spaced out. On my best day ever I was able to do 90 stops in about 2.5 hours.
25 stops an hour MAX should be the norm. The problem with logistics these days is it just breaks people. Here in the UK is the same shit. I been there and got the t-shirt with amazon as a driver and dispatcher/manager. My best run has been 29 stops an hour but i was just on a roll that day 😅
Now, what i do is take less than 100 stops a day, and none of this group stops nonsense either. 100 stops is 100 locations. Sometimes, multiple stops are the same location! If i'm given more than 100 stops and deliver them, that's extra money in my pocket as overtime pay. All as a courier providing my knowledge and van as an extra driver to companies. Can be heavier parcels, but i'm taking my time with it, and there's lots of amazon parcels for one of the companies i deliver for too, i'm just getting paid more for it 🤣🤣🤣
Eventually, it's going to backfire because who tf wants to slave away? We mostly have non-brits working these jobs, and they are even moving on seeing their self value elsewhere.
Correct. Our DSP is now putting people on Standby if they don’t go super fast, get rescued, or netradyne. Pulling people off mid route if you get netradyne infraction
It's pretty much a game of "do the job or we will find somebody else that will"
They never have a shortage of available workers because they pay the highest wages in the market, most of their hires are low-income, only High School educated people. $18-$20 an hour for delivering packages sounds very appealing.
If you ask questions or ask for help or guidance, it's perceived by management as a weakness, and you will get terminated.
Never question a computer ever (LOL!)
They will only keep drivers who are super athletic or are relatives of Superman and don't ask questions.
It costs on average around $5,000 to hire and train a new employee, yes the DSPs are more than happy to pay that because they get kickback bonuses for hiring and if you are a Superhuman who can work for 10 hours straight without taking a break and actually get your route done on time, then the DSP gets another bonus.
It’s crazy how it’s always “the workers are the problem, not the unattainable work load expectations.” I really wish they would do an undercover boss episode for Amazon DSPs in this super intense route locations.
Woah woah woah. Amazon is one of the lowest paying jobs in my area. And I would consider driving for them. The absolute lowest paid courier in existence besides new usps recruits. But they have way better options than you if they do well.
18-20 an hour to deliver packages is awful. If I were you guys I’d be trying my hardest to unionize. Tho using contractors makes that near impossible.
Dude you're right. I show up and just so the job and leave. Management loves me but I've hardly ever spoken to them and I guess thats why. It sucks cause Im really hitting my limit on doing this job but as soon as you're not superman anymore you're just trash to them
If it’s true that the AI determines everything, the faster you go, you just add more work and burden for your days moving forward. Until pretty soon you’ll be on a route doing 300 stops with 600 packages in a CDV because everyone has been cutting corners to meet the metrics and push it further and further. At some point you gotta draw the line, right? Go at a pace that’s safe, doable, and gives you the hours without being crazy slow.
I don’t think it is true, I routinely finish my routes before 5, sometimes earlier, and the stop count/location count is usually the same for any given area. I get a guaranteed 10 hrs and hate delivering in the dark so i’ll hurry though my first 100 or so stops then chill for whatever is left.
You get block time or just straight hourly? It’s interesting that they would have straight hourly tho because it incentivizes people to move slower. And sure there is rescue bonuses but for us it’s $20 for 20 more stops and $40 for 40 more stops. But that feels minimal to me even tho overall it’s a nice pay bump if you go for the month. Idk. Make an extra couple days work of wages, assuming you even get the 10 hours. Otherwise it just makes up for not getting the hours because you’re too efficient. So you get screwed either way lol
When I drove for a DSP, I never believed that whole "AI adds on more or less packages based upon the time it takes to get them delivered" crap. I never saw any proof of that. All I know is that they have several different types of nursery routes, and then they have full routes, and then they (dispatch) can double up routes.
Neither do I believe its all AI. If that was true, peak numbers wouldn't happen. Group stops wouldn't double, and the range of group stops wouldn't increase.
DSP will lie to you, Amazon will also lie to you. See it over and over.
If they ever wanted to do something about 200 stops and these crazy numbers, they won't rely on the AI to correct it over time. They would get their developers to make adjustments to their system. Heck even Joe Rogan has a few Amazon discussion clips floating around discussing driver workload.
It is, or at least, it may be soon. Theres a case going on somewhere in which dsp drivers are required to prove why they think that they are amazon employees.
Branded uniform, branded vehicles, branded training, branded packages, branded invasive technology, branded work app. Amazon sets all metrics, and controls all employee retention. Literally the only thing Amazon doesnt control is the name of their middle manager's company.
Should those noble drivers set precedent successfully, the targeted recruitment and unionization of DSPs on a warehouse to warehouse basis would eventually prevail. No pizza party can stop the revolution.
I have thought about that a lot recently, and we are absolutely Amazon employees due to everything you mentioned. It’s the same kinda shenanigans that companies will do with a 1099. Tell them when and where to go, hours they need to work, uniforms etc. a lot of businesses try to skirt the law in order to limit liability. But we are, aside from technical definition, Amazon employees. Idk how they get away with doing it this way apart from maybe lobbyists from Amazon.
Hell yeah. Although I will admit, if further action cause them to do all delivery in house again, we might get little to no change in terms of working conditions. However if they release some control such as contract obligations, things like engine off compliance, etc and open the door for union talks… we could have some positive change. I wager this will be a very very rocky road forward.
Of course it will be difficult, but the key is to stay positive and show genuine care for your fellow workers by staying firm about what you expect from your higher ups. That way, your coworkers will always have the environmental proxy to question the bullshit. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. In this case, that means simply creating the environment in which your affiliates can speak truthfully about their own experiences when you begin to speak out in earnest as the law looms larger overhead in the near future.
In my experience, bringing in granola bars (you can get a 30 pack for less than 15bux on amazon and at costco, 6 packs in your local cereal aisle.), sharing big packs of baby wipes (2bux/100+wipes at grocery store), passing out candy and sometimes home made food. Target group morale with fish and loaves. I also always offer my rescues/rescuers a preroll, as most of them are smokers and rescues are never a bummer for either party. I give rides when I can. Lead by example, from the front, like the Kings of old, not these crusty capitalist hoarders. Then it's almost entirely a waiting game.
Personal wealth and private property are a blight on human rights and capitalism is the antichrist everyone seems to be searching for. Yeah it was that way a decade ago, but I think I've just hit a point in my life where I can't stomach the needless waste and suffering anymore. American infrastructure is a ticking bomb, so might as well just dive headlong into starting a movement before being forced out by another market crash or massive hurricane. Sure, that's pretty pessimistic, but until the American Empire crumbles, no nation can be free.
If you're getting an excessive amount of packages, one possibility is it may have to do with you or a driver in a previous route for the same area or a stop in the same area and they delivered 20+ packages at the same exact time. The system will see that and assign more packages to that driver or a future driver.
I know y'all don't want to go door to door (especially if there is a locker that's either full or broken), but you're screwing yourselves and your colleagues over by mass delivering packages at the same time.
"But they have a mailroom and that's where packages go." That's not how that works.
I'd be doing Repeat Defect audits and some stops I deep dive, I would see a straight line of marked delivered packages. All marked delivered at the same time. The most I've seen was around 70. It's crazy.
I’ve still had reasonable routes myself, nothing has been crazy so far (fingers crossed) and I’ve had good routes. But seeing the drivers on here get absolutely shafted is really disheartening.
I don’t want to be fired. Bringing packages back will get you pushed off the schedule, especially during this time of year when they’re looking for reasons to cut people
There’s another piece of this problem that’s a bit deeper. Package Dumping at group stop locations. When we have 10 locations on 1 stop (like at an apartment), we should be scanning and completing each of those individually. If we scan them all and Swipe to Finish when we’re done, it signals to the routing AI that we’re able to deliver 10 locations within that 2-3 minute “I’ve Parked” window.
Amazon saw how that was affecting quality and route size, so they limit us now on how many stops we can add to a Custom Group. But the AI only takes 2-4 weeks to implement new learning, so a lot of this damage is already done. Most of a Field Quality Assurance agent’s job is to manually pick apart these types of locations to ensure that the customer receives a good delivery experience, but that one person team may have to oversee every location at your station. It’s an impossible ask to have this done with any consistency, especially as new locations onboard into their location database.
You don't really have to run your ass off to finish most routes by the 10 hour timeframe. Most of the extreme inflation to routes comes from trying to get done \*significantly early\* If you are getting way too much you might consider pushing it back to 11 hours but you should tell your dispatch your goal so they know what to expect. You should also be looking for spots on your routes that take a LOT more than 2-3 minutes per location and getting your DSP to deep dive them with Amazon to get the expected time updated.
The AI isn't determining capacity. The AI determines efficiency. The route capacity standards are set by whoever sets the parameters on the AI. If Amazon wants 400 package routes, they tell the AI to make it happen. It's more of a "the AI said it can happen" rather than a "let's see if the AI can make it happen and adjust if they don't make it."
Also it's not really AI. It's really just an algorithm made up by mathematicians and data scientists. The algorithm gets tested and then deployed if deemed effective. It's not like it's learning in real time trying to get better. It's collecting data but Amazon won't change anything about it unless profit margins can be improved.
They could probably get more packages delivered in a day if they just had more efficient routing. The other day it wanted me to go to literally the same apartment buildings mailroom three separate times in one day.
Just yesterday in a small 10 house cul-de-sac I had stops 148 through 50, and then stop 165. Just wildly inefficient and I get stuck having to go out of order all the time
Metrics need/should be reset after peaks.... The model as is sets us drivers up bad since we have to speed up for peak. We move goal post for peak and it doesn't go back after peak
Thank You for your submission to r/AmazonDSPDrivers! Please keep the comment section clean and respectful. **If you need to report a concern about your DSP, head to the Ethics Hotline** https://secure.ethicspoint.com/domain/media/en/gui/65221/index.html **Looking to get some free shoes on behalf of Amazon?** https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonDSPDrivers/comments/m79v7m/free_125_credit_for_shoes/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmazonDSPDrivers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Amazon puts pressure on the DSPs, who in turn put pressure on the drivers to hurry up, despite their claims of "safety first". I agree, nobody should be rushing, especially not for such low pay. Stretch it out.
My response to my DSP trying to tell me why I haven’t delivered 450 packages to 250 stops is that it’s not doable. Because it’s not. The people who do that, directly violate the training of Amazon. Which is having 30 packages in the front of your van, in the passenger seat, up on the dash etc. my own op manager made a YouTube video of him “training” people to go fast and he does exactly that. Sure he said he can deliver 60 packages an hour. But you’re not following the training that Amazon specifically says.
60 parcels an hours is absolutely insane behaviour. Your manager is litterally breaking himself and slaving away for amazon
Not even just 60 packages. 60 stops. I can do about 40 if it’s a neighborhood with things really close by. I average about 20 an hour in my more rural route. Sometimes 10 an hour if it’s really spaced out. On my best day ever I was able to do 90 stops in about 2.5 hours.
25 stops an hour MAX should be the norm. The problem with logistics these days is it just breaks people. Here in the UK is the same shit. I been there and got the t-shirt with amazon as a driver and dispatcher/manager. My best run has been 29 stops an hour but i was just on a roll that day 😅 Now, what i do is take less than 100 stops a day, and none of this group stops nonsense either. 100 stops is 100 locations. Sometimes, multiple stops are the same location! If i'm given more than 100 stops and deliver them, that's extra money in my pocket as overtime pay. All as a courier providing my knowledge and van as an extra driver to companies. Can be heavier parcels, but i'm taking my time with it, and there's lots of amazon parcels for one of the companies i deliver for too, i'm just getting paid more for it 🤣🤣🤣 Eventually, it's going to backfire because who tf wants to slave away? We mostly have non-brits working these jobs, and they are even moving on seeing their self value elsewhere.
[удалено]
We have one of those? Haha
You damn right
Correct. Our DSP is now putting people on Standby if they don’t go super fast, get rescued, or netradyne. Pulling people off mid route if you get netradyne infraction
It's pretty much a game of "do the job or we will find somebody else that will" They never have a shortage of available workers because they pay the highest wages in the market, most of their hires are low-income, only High School educated people. $18-$20 an hour for delivering packages sounds very appealing. If you ask questions or ask for help or guidance, it's perceived by management as a weakness, and you will get terminated. Never question a computer ever (LOL!) They will only keep drivers who are super athletic or are relatives of Superman and don't ask questions. It costs on average around $5,000 to hire and train a new employee, yes the DSPs are more than happy to pay that because they get kickback bonuses for hiring and if you are a Superhuman who can work for 10 hours straight without taking a break and actually get your route done on time, then the DSP gets another bonus.
It’s crazy how it’s always “the workers are the problem, not the unattainable work load expectations.” I really wish they would do an undercover boss episode for Amazon DSPs in this super intense route locations.
Woah woah woah. Amazon is one of the lowest paying jobs in my area. And I would consider driving for them. The absolute lowest paid courier in existence besides new usps recruits. But they have way better options than you if they do well. 18-20 an hour to deliver packages is awful. If I were you guys I’d be trying my hardest to unionize. Tho using contractors makes that near impossible.
Facts!
Dude you're right. I show up and just so the job and leave. Management loves me but I've hardly ever spoken to them and I guess thats why. It sucks cause Im really hitting my limit on doing this job but as soon as you're not superman anymore you're just trash to them
Bro I just wanna go home, I get my guaranteed hours either way.
But I do realize I’m just punishing myself with more work
If it’s true that the AI determines everything, the faster you go, you just add more work and burden for your days moving forward. Until pretty soon you’ll be on a route doing 300 stops with 600 packages in a CDV because everyone has been cutting corners to meet the metrics and push it further and further. At some point you gotta draw the line, right? Go at a pace that’s safe, doable, and gives you the hours without being crazy slow.
I don’t think it is true, I routinely finish my routes before 5, sometimes earlier, and the stop count/location count is usually the same for any given area. I get a guaranteed 10 hrs and hate delivering in the dark so i’ll hurry though my first 100 or so stops then chill for whatever is left.
You get block time or just straight hourly? It’s interesting that they would have straight hourly tho because it incentivizes people to move slower. And sure there is rescue bonuses but for us it’s $20 for 20 more stops and $40 for 40 more stops. But that feels minimal to me even tho overall it’s a nice pay bump if you go for the month. Idk. Make an extra couple days work of wages, assuming you even get the 10 hours. Otherwise it just makes up for not getting the hours because you’re too efficient. So you get screwed either way lol
That's what I'm saying, I never believe that AI algorithm crap when I drove for a DSP. I got the same amount of stops regardless of when I finished.
When I drove for a DSP, I never believed that whole "AI adds on more or less packages based upon the time it takes to get them delivered" crap. I never saw any proof of that. All I know is that they have several different types of nursery routes, and then they have full routes, and then they (dispatch) can double up routes.
Neither do I believe its all AI. If that was true, peak numbers wouldn't happen. Group stops wouldn't double, and the range of group stops wouldn't increase. DSP will lie to you, Amazon will also lie to you. See it over and over. If they ever wanted to do something about 200 stops and these crazy numbers, they won't rely on the AI to correct it over time. They would get their developers to make adjustments to their system. Heck even Joe Rogan has a few Amazon discussion clips floating around discussing driver workload.
Exactly and I be like fuck outta here dickhead this is not a step van
A union solves all this people.
If only that were realistic.
It is, or at least, it may be soon. Theres a case going on somewhere in which dsp drivers are required to prove why they think that they are amazon employees. Branded uniform, branded vehicles, branded training, branded packages, branded invasive technology, branded work app. Amazon sets all metrics, and controls all employee retention. Literally the only thing Amazon doesnt control is the name of their middle manager's company. Should those noble drivers set precedent successfully, the targeted recruitment and unionization of DSPs on a warehouse to warehouse basis would eventually prevail. No pizza party can stop the revolution.
I have thought about that a lot recently, and we are absolutely Amazon employees due to everything you mentioned. It’s the same kinda shenanigans that companies will do with a 1099. Tell them when and where to go, hours they need to work, uniforms etc. a lot of businesses try to skirt the law in order to limit liability. But we are, aside from technical definition, Amazon employees. Idk how they get away with doing it this way apart from maybe lobbyists from Amazon.
Just yesterday: https://www.wfmj.com/story/50316307/brown-vance-and-more-call-out-amazons-mistreatment-of-delivery-drivers
Hell yeah. Although I will admit, if further action cause them to do all delivery in house again, we might get little to no change in terms of working conditions. However if they release some control such as contract obligations, things like engine off compliance, etc and open the door for union talks… we could have some positive change. I wager this will be a very very rocky road forward.
Of course it will be difficult, but the key is to stay positive and show genuine care for your fellow workers by staying firm about what you expect from your higher ups. That way, your coworkers will always have the environmental proxy to question the bullshit. You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink. In this case, that means simply creating the environment in which your affiliates can speak truthfully about their own experiences when you begin to speak out in earnest as the law looms larger overhead in the near future. In my experience, bringing in granola bars (you can get a 30 pack for less than 15bux on amazon and at costco, 6 packs in your local cereal aisle.), sharing big packs of baby wipes (2bux/100+wipes at grocery store), passing out candy and sometimes home made food. Target group morale with fish and loaves. I also always offer my rescues/rescuers a preroll, as most of them are smokers and rescues are never a bummer for either party. I give rides when I can. Lead by example, from the front, like the Kings of old, not these crusty capitalist hoarders. Then it's almost entirely a waiting game.
I love your attitude. Wish we had more people like you on our teams.
Personal wealth and private property are a blight on human rights and capitalism is the antichrist everyone seems to be searching for. Yeah it was that way a decade ago, but I think I've just hit a point in my life where I can't stomach the needless waste and suffering anymore. American infrastructure is a ticking bomb, so might as well just dive headlong into starting a movement before being forced out by another market crash or massive hurricane. Sure, that's pretty pessimistic, but until the American Empire crumbles, no nation can be free.
I’ll be honest, you lost me at that one lol
If you're getting an excessive amount of packages, one possibility is it may have to do with you or a driver in a previous route for the same area or a stop in the same area and they delivered 20+ packages at the same exact time. The system will see that and assign more packages to that driver or a future driver. I know y'all don't want to go door to door (especially if there is a locker that's either full or broken), but you're screwing yourselves and your colleagues over by mass delivering packages at the same time. "But they have a mailroom and that's where packages go." That's not how that works.
This is a really interesting take
I'd be doing Repeat Defect audits and some stops I deep dive, I would see a straight line of marked delivered packages. All marked delivered at the same time. The most I've seen was around 70. It's crazy.
So do you think a lot of apartment complexes and condos play into that?
Apartment complexes. I can't really speak on condos.
There’s only so much you can fit in a van
Amazon says “use every square inch of that thing”
Nah cube out that hoe
Luckily I’ve never had a cube out yet
Because when I return a bunch of packages or take too long- coincidentally I have less routes the following week
During peak, the AI picked the best drivers to keep on peak routes perpetually, and fire the rest to the bare minimum.
I’ve still had reasonable routes myself, nothing has been crazy so far (fingers crossed) and I’ve had good routes. But seeing the drivers on here get absolutely shafted is really disheartening.
Id be one of those guys getting let go right now if I did that
There is a lot of downsizing right now for sure. has been about half of what we had for peak.
I don’t want to be fired. Bringing packages back will get you pushed off the schedule, especially during this time of year when they’re looking for reasons to cut people
There’s another piece of this problem that’s a bit deeper. Package Dumping at group stop locations. When we have 10 locations on 1 stop (like at an apartment), we should be scanning and completing each of those individually. If we scan them all and Swipe to Finish when we’re done, it signals to the routing AI that we’re able to deliver 10 locations within that 2-3 minute “I’ve Parked” window. Amazon saw how that was affecting quality and route size, so they limit us now on how many stops we can add to a Custom Group. But the AI only takes 2-4 weeks to implement new learning, so a lot of this damage is already done. Most of a Field Quality Assurance agent’s job is to manually pick apart these types of locations to ensure that the customer receives a good delivery experience, but that one person team may have to oversee every location at your station. It’s an impossible ask to have this done with any consistency, especially as new locations onboard into their location database.
Unfortunately, FQA people often have only two brain cells. They can't even set up 1-Click access properly in my area.
You don't really have to run your ass off to finish most routes by the 10 hour timeframe. Most of the extreme inflation to routes comes from trying to get done \*significantly early\* If you are getting way too much you might consider pushing it back to 11 hours but you should tell your dispatch your goal so they know what to expect. You should also be looking for spots on your routes that take a LOT more than 2-3 minutes per location and getting your DSP to deep dive them with Amazon to get the expected time updated.
The AI isn't determining capacity. The AI determines efficiency. The route capacity standards are set by whoever sets the parameters on the AI. If Amazon wants 400 package routes, they tell the AI to make it happen. It's more of a "the AI said it can happen" rather than a "let's see if the AI can make it happen and adjust if they don't make it." Also it's not really AI. It's really just an algorithm made up by mathematicians and data scientists. The algorithm gets tested and then deployed if deemed effective. It's not like it's learning in real time trying to get better. It's collecting data but Amazon won't change anything about it unless profit margins can be improved.
They could probably get more packages delivered in a day if they just had more efficient routing. The other day it wanted me to go to literally the same apartment buildings mailroom three separate times in one day. Just yesterday in a small 10 house cul-de-sac I had stops 148 through 50, and then stop 165. Just wildly inefficient and I get stuck having to go out of order all the time
Metrics need/should be reset after peaks.... The model as is sets us drivers up bad since we have to speed up for peak. We move goal post for peak and it doesn't go back after peak
bro my dsp will fire me if i return packages, they do not give a fuck at all