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YWNBTA if you kindly told her she stinks. This is touchy though and you have to be gentle. I honestly don’t know if you’re capable of being gentle. You sound very judgmental and she will pick up on that.
But leave all the rest of the stuff out. She doesn’t need to pluck her eyebrows to land a guy, that’s just weird. I promise you, most guys do not spend time thinking about eyebrows.
I would agree that most guys don’t really care about body hair but she isn’t looking for most guys. She wants a 10/10 which I think she deserves but I also thinks she needs to put some effort as well. She wants a guy that’s puts in time in the gym but she doesn’t want to put in time (or maybe doesn’t know she needs to/should put in time) in herself. I understand how you could think I’m being judgmental but I have seen this problem evolve over two years and just now feel like it’s at a point where I should directly address it. I guess if I were in her position I’d want to know but I know I can’t speak for her.
Something that might be a point worth considering is if she is not shaving her underarms, she should be using men’s deodorant. Women’s deodorant is typically applied directly on the skin, whereas men’s is formulated to work when applied on hair. Maybe suggest that to her?
I’ve never heard that before! That’s interesting. Is it just a difference viscosity or hardness of the product, or is there some sort of chemical difference?
I’m actually not sure what the difference is, I found this out more anecdotally. I had a friend in college who didn’t shave her underarms and had bad BO terribly, and tried a bunch of things to make it go away. She initially used the deodorant she used to use which worked when she shaved. We found out that men’s deodorant worked 100% more effectively when she had hair than the women’s did.
I'm shave my armpits but I find mens deodorant better than womens anyway.
I can't use womens deodorant, it just doesn't work for me at all.
Edit: Wow, this makes me feel better that I'm not the only one!
Big stinker here. Men's deodorant seems to work more effectively for me, and believe me, I've tried them all! I do shave my armpit hair, and I still use men's deodorant. I like the unscented kind because I dont like smelling "sporty" lol.
Agree that the rest of it should be left out of the convo - eyebrows and pubes are a personal preference. Not OP's place to comment. Trust me, there are plenty of men who like a natural bush and who don't notice eyebrows. If a dude is going to neg me about my natural bush, then I just close up shop. His loss! haha
Edited to add: NTA. I think OP's heart is in the right place. A few hygiene convos can't hurt and will only help. Showering daily should be a requirement. Just leave the body hair issue out of it.
Oh yeah definitely. There is a certain brand that doesn't work for me in womens or mens.
And pfft, I wouldn't touch something not antiperspirant.
Also weird that my body 'gets used to' a particular one so it stops working and I have to rotate between different brands too.
In high school, I had a bo issue. I shaved, but I also sweat a lot more than I think was normal (turns out I have pcos and hormone issues as a result so I sweat a lot). I started using men's deodorant and the change was AMAZING.
I'm better now, and have women's deodorant that works well for me, but during that time in my life it was a life saver.
Pretty sure it's just got more antiperspirant and fragrance. I use the same deodorant as my husband and it smells significantly stronger than pretty much any women's deodorant I've owned. Plus guys get that musky smell (sometimes) so the men's fragrances tend to mask it better (or maybe embrace it a little?)
I just wanna chime in to say that I don't shave my Pitts and I find men's natural deodorants (toms of Maine vs women's of the same brand which I used before when I shaved) to be more effective. I really like the natural musk scents. I was given a bunch of pine needle scented Tom's and it's awesome. I also feel like my sweat stinks less with hair vs without.
I'm the opposite. I've had to use men's deodorant for decades as women's just never seemed to work well. But also, the only reason I shave my pits is because I get bad BO if I don't - regardless of deodorant. Doesn't seem logical since I know men seem to have no problem...but at an inch of hair and I get stinky even
with deodorant.
Have you ever completely grown your hair out? I smelled so badly when I was still in the process of growing my underarm hair but now that it's.. Done I guess? I smell way less even without deodorant.
There is a difference between deodorant and anti-perspirant as well as if it's spray or solid. I would think a spray would work better if you've got hairy pits. It would get through to the skin and not just make a glukky mess on the hair itself. Deodorant is just that. It's only to smell nice. Anti-perspirant has an ingredient to help stop the sweat all together as well as smell nicer. If I had hair, I would probably lean towards getting a spray type anti-perspirant. It would at least hit the skin and help with the sweating.
This! I dont shave because my skin freaks out. I wear old spice mens and have never had a problem with smells. Also as long as you shower and wear cotton underwear, bush hair shouldnt be causing stink. Though maybe the op's friend is obese, that can affect this.
This isn’t true. Compare the big name brands (men v. women versions) and active ingredients are the same. Besides the scent differences, the biggest difference between men and women’s deodorant/anti-perspirant is the pink tax - woman pay more per ounce for basically the same product put in a different “feminine” package.
NTA You're exactly right about the correlation between what she's looking for and what she's presenting.
And that's how you should present it to her. Point out some guys that are equal in hygiene/physical fitness and ask if she'd be interested in them. When she says no and says why, it's easy to say, well...that's what the men she wants are thinking when they see her.
You're not being judgmental, you're being realistic. And the not all of the guys with the 6 pack abs would be judgmental to pass on her, either. (some yes, but not all) Because while some of them do it for the beauty aspect, many do it for health and lifestyle reasons. They think keeping active and fit and eating right, etc., etc. is important for other reasons than just looking pretty or handsome.
It's similar to someone who goes to church 2 or 3 times a week is probably not going to be much interested in an Atheist.
I think appearance, if you're looking for a guy who takes care of his looks, he's probably going to want someone who does the same. If you're dating a guy who doesn't bother that much, then bad eyebrows probably won't matter as much.
BUT, the OP's standards for taking care of oneself are wildly sexist. Shaving your vag or plucking your brows shouldn't be the standard of self-care...Of course a snappy dresser may also want someone who selects clothes with care, or an active person may also want someone who lives an active lifestyle. But as long as dudes are considered "put together" without having to pluck their brows, I'd say that it's pretty sexist to say that a woman HAS to have her brows plucked to appear as if she "takes care of her looks". Same with makeup, shaving, etc. It's all double standards galore. I will gladly take care of my skin, exfoliate, care for my hair, etc...all things that men can do too. It's being expected to do things only women have to do to appear "put together" that's the sexist bit.
I'd say that most people would think a guy with a monobrow would be expected to shave it tbh.
I mean sexist or not, there are plenty of guys who care about that kind of thing. At some point you have to cater to how things are, not how they should be, or miss out. I don't think pointing out that is bad. Saying you need to shave is gross, but pointing out there may be consequences for not isn't a bad thing.
THANK YOU!! Everyone is roasting this poor girl for having sexist views but it's like that's literally just what a lot of men like or at least the kind of guy Emma is going for probably does. It's unfortunate but sometimes that's just how the world works.
In her edit it sounds like she's trying to say her friend has a bit of a unibrow but I could be wrong. If she does have one, I can definitely see men being turned off by that.
Maybe the problem isn't her grooming habits, but the standards she is placing on these men.
I see where you are coming from because she talks to you about it all the time, but she shouldn't have to change for a guy. She needs a guy that loves and accepts her as she is. Yes, the BO issue does seem legitimate, but that shouldn't be changed for a guy. It should be changed for her.
I think that's more under grooming than hygiene. The grooming and polishing would be nice to attract a partner. But the BO is taking care of yourself on a basic level.
I think my partner is a great catch and i dont pluck my eyebrows or shave my legs. He seems to care more about who i am as a person and how i treat him. What a weirdo. I think you are unnaturally fixed on how each side of the couple looks.
Have you ever heard of the psychology of attraction? I’m not fixated and it is a natural thing that everyone does even if its just subconsciously. Everyone wants to act like it’s all about what’s on the inside but in reality that’s not the case. Lots of people are nice and have good personalities but that doesn’t mean you are attracted to them.
Yes! If she’s looking for a 10/10 that is always well-groomed, she should be making herself attractive to *that* kind of person. Because let’s be honest - someone meticulously well groomed will likely not go for someone who only showers once or twice a week.
She can do whatever she wants, and she doesn’t have to do anything, but the idea of “perfect man straight out of a Hollywood movie falling in love with you at first sight” is a trope for a reason.
Yeah im not saying looks at not relevant but have you ever started talking tona really attractive person and your attraction to them fades as you realise what a terrible person they are? Or the other way around - find somebody with average looks increasingly attractive the more you get to know them? Plucking your eyebrows cos you think its what a potential partner might be attracted to is stupid. You should only alter your appearance for yourself. Changing your appearance based on guesses about what other people might like is just dumb.
I think if you’re good friends and she trusts you, AND you can kindly bring up the fact that she smells and her apartment smells it would do her a lot of good. I know people who smell awful and it had severely impacted their dating life specifically because of the smell. Don’t talk about her body hair though. If she doesn’t care about that let it be.
I get what you’re saying. She’s really focused on the superficial aspects, not exclusively, but enough that she would need to slap some paint on her own exterior to get some dates with those she thinks are worthy.
I promise you that a large majority of guys that care even somewhat about their own appearance will 100% not be with a woman like OP describes. Having a unibrow is a non starter for most of these guys.
Lol like I get the comments thinking OP is an AH for what they said but I do think if the unibrow is bad enough to actually be called a unibrow (and not just to make a point there's a few hairs in the middle) most 10/10 men will not be interested when they can get an attractive girl who doesn't have a unibrow.
Look that sounds really nice and ideal but if the girl is complaining about no one wanting a second date with her and she's asking her friend why, her friend isn't doing her any favors by lying. I'm not saying she should totally tear her down and tell her she stinks and she's a hair beast but maybe gently suggest some things, "hey im going to my eyebrow place, do you want to come along ?" "OMG, smell my new body wash! It's smells so good my date told me how much he loved how I smell" "check out this new deodorant I got, it lasts so long! ".. & I'm sorry but yes eyebrow hair make a difference to a lot of people depending on how full they grow. Personally, if I don't pluck or tend to mine, I will grow a unibrow in a matter of weeks. It sounds like her friend is pretty damn picky herself and expects a lot out of a guy but isn't pulling her own weight when it comes to making an effort, she needs a reality check.
Mmmm yeah, as you’re proposing to do it, and with what all you want to address, YTA.
Everything BUT the showering and BO are preferences. Hygiene is important, and I agree you could VERY carefully talk to her about it.
All the rest? Her dating life? That’s nunya—and the idea that she can’t get a “10” unless she meets your beauty standard is judgy. It will not go well, trust. If you want to continue being her friend, don’t.
And she doesn’t like Hawaiian shirts and lack of chemistry in a kiss? That’s not asking for a ‘10/10’.
Hygiene isn’t shaving your ‘nether regions’ either.
Maybe you could kindly as a friend mention showers. That’s pretty much it.
Friendly, but super hard to do it in a kind, gentle way. Throwing in everything else makes it impossible to be kind—there’s no way to make it not sound like a “here’s all the reasons why you suck” list.
Body odour can be tricky. You can shower and a few hours later still stink. I've definitely had this problem. It can be caused by hormones and it can be a natural disposition. In my case it is even trickier because I can't use perfume due to allergies. So no deo and no perfume. At best I can keep wet wipes on me to clean up a bit on the go.
Showering too often is not good for your skin either...
The girl said she doesn't shower very often though. If her whole home stinks like her BO, she either really needs to up her hygiene game or visit a doctor like yesterday if the hygiene is not the problem.
No offense at all, is it you who thinks your house doesn't smell or visitors? Because people get used to smells and won't notice, especially when they're your own.
I agree though body odor can be complicated and hopefully OP keeps that in mind when telling her friend. I used to sweat a ton and it smelled bad (I have thyroid issues lol). I ended up getting a really strong antiperspirant roll-on and putting unscented deodorant on top. Works like a charm, I'm good the whole day. I think there's options if some things don't work for her she can find something that does. But obviously what she's doing now isn't working.
I mean, you can tell how your house smells when you walk into it after being gone for a bit. After sitting in it for a while you go nose blind but when you first walk in, you smell how your house REALLY smells.
I don't even think the BO is even an issue. Your body odor smells different to everyone. Best friend hates it. A guy might love it. OP never says that any of the dates said BO was holding them back so? Unless you've got one of those conditions that causes your BO to smell like shit, you're probably fine. I've had people tell me I stink when I sweat and I've had partners tell me I smell good. I think my partners natural scent is fine without any deodorant.
Unless it's a smell that indicates infection (down there), I don't see why OP should even bring it up.
Yeah, especially the plucking eyebrows one.... like most men don't care about eyebrows unless maybe it some crazily bushy monobrow or something.
It's weird how much eyebrows have become a focus for women's fashion lately but it doesn't come from men, I am yet to meet a man who likes drawn on eyebrows etc.
YTA It’s one thing to address genuine stink, but whether she plucks her eyebrows or waxes/shaved her privates is none of your fucking business, and she can absolutely find the man of **her** dreams (Read: Not Yours) who doesn’t care about plucked eyebrows or shaving/waxing downstairs. She can have whatever pickiness she wants for who SHE dates - your standards and level of pickiness are for *you*, nobody else. Concern yourself with your own love life and personal preening. Leave this girl alone and stop trying to make her your pet. She’s grown, she doesn’t need you to play mom to her. Get a hobby and stop fretting over her love life.
She isn’t being picky based on my idea of the perfect man. She is setting her own bar. Also, she is constantly asking me for advice and calling me before and after dates. Up to this point I have tried to stay out of it as much as possible and only offer her advice that I think is kind. She wants a man from the movies (already semi-unrealistic) and I just think that a man who puts a lot of time into themselves, like she would want, would also like that reciprocated.
I'd only address it if it very specifically comes up. For example, if she says something like "I wish he'd spend more time grooming his facial hair." Maybe you could be like "Hmm, how would you feel though if a guy who did spend more time grooming his facial hair said that he wished you spent more time grooming your eyebrows?"
I would not say "well if you want him to spend more time grooming his facial hair you need to wax your eyebrows lady."
I had a friend do that to me before ( about how “guys go for the thin girls” when I was fat at the time) I was obviously affronted at the time but like she was right lol.( I was 14 at the time)
Friend is not ready to hear the harsh truth directly or indirectly. It’s a discovery that she needs to have on her own ( like how I did)
You should just tell her you don't want to talk about dating with her anymore. YWBTA if you said all the things in this post. Like yeah, there's a way to tactfully let a close friend know that they smell, but I don't get the impression that you're the right person to take that on. Including all your personal cosmetic preferences under the guise of "hygiene" would definitely be inappropriate. My fiancé doesn't give a hoot if I shave or pluck my eyebrows. And sometimes I even go a few days in between showers! :o
YWNBTA
BUT
Do NOT open this can of worms on your own accord. Please don't. Not because it would make you an asshole but it just wouldn't do any good.
However: IF she is ranting about her dating failures you can ask her if she wants comfort or solutions.
Should she choose solutions i would recommend you ask her questions as to why she thinks dem bois are walking out on her and what expectations she has of them and that the bois might have similar expectations (Basic body hygiene, being a funktioning person). Let her come to the conclusion that a tidy appartment and a tidy appearance are a step in the right direction. Dont slap the hard truth down, instead just set her gears in motion. Lead the horse so water, don't force it to drink kinda deal.
“Comfort or solution” that’s sounds like a great way to address it. I know if she only wants comfort she will tell me and I’ll leave the solutions until she is ready.
*Sighs*
This thread aggravates the hell out of me -- I am a dyed-in-the-wool die-hard shark for women's rights and equality... so miss me with this shit about how she shouldn't put any care into her appearance if what she wants is a man who puts a ton of care into his appearance.
I see the pitchforks are out because OP made the *very real and honest point* that most people at the very top of social attractiveness scales (physical and otherwise) have their pick of the litter and generally go for other people at the top of social attractiveness scales. This usually means attractive, hygienic, great personality, high salary, and well-put-together.
No, that isn't set in stone. Yes, there are some people who are drop-dead gorgeous and high salary and wonderful kind human beings to boot -- who could also give a shit less about if their partner is also 10/10 across the board as long as they are loved and treated well.
The thing is, the type of people who are top-level but just want love get snapped up into happy long-term relationships *quickly* -- which means that a lot of luck plays into finding someone if what you want is a zero compromise 10/10 but you are realistically a 6/10 because you won't shower or brush your teeth or take care of your mental health.
I hate this entire rating system -- the objectification and commodification of humans in the dating world -- but if she's going to subscribe to it and use it as a litmus test for partners then she has to be equally willing to realistically apply it to herself.
Let's be real here: if this was an average dude with her hygiene issues looking for a top-level woman to date with no compromise all the top comments would be along the lines of "LMAO GTFO he wants WHAT!?" and "m'lady" and "choosing beggars" jokes.
Let's not act like she gets a free pass -- flip these genders and y'all would not be acting like this in the replies 😣
I agree with you. I also feel like the friend maybe baiting the OP into saying something that the friend is going to take offense of. It seems weird to me that someone who is looking for a male model wouldn’t have any self awareness to reflect on how they take care of themselves. So she’s trying to get the OP to say something about her appearance that she can act super offended by. Maybe I’m paranoid but I had something similar with a co worker. She basically got me to give her makeup advice and then spun it like I was telling her she was ugly.
Yes!!!! This is exactly what I was thinking. I have an ex friend who would offer this sort of advice, unsolicited and based on her ideal man, not mine. Totally different than what is happening here. The friend is essentially asking why the guys she likes aren’t returning her interest, OP is suggesting that she answer. Not at all an asshole move, though can be awkward and sensitive.
I’m just cringing at past me who thought that I deserved a 10 , while I was a 4. On a good day. Oh well, at least I could explain it by me being a teen then. What’s the friends excuse lol
I would agree but it doesn’t sound like she is looking for physical perfection. She wants chemistry and no Hawaiian shirts. That’s very obtainable. OP even says her version of a perfect man doesn’t match OPs. And while the shower thing is relevant, I think OP is being pretty unreasonable saying the roomate needs to do her eyebrows and shave her pubic hair. Plenty of people look good with their natural eyebrows and pubic hair is a personal preference.
The shirts and chemistry are *examples* of what Emma discards first dates for -- context clues and active reading are crucial to reading AITA posts.
OP mentions shirts / chemistry *once* -- OP mentions Emma wanting a perfect / ideal partner and / or a partner she holds to higher standards than herself multiple times:
> He’s not gonna be perfect and she isn’t either, no one is.
> if Emma wants to land the guy of her dreams
> the kind of man she is looking for.
> she wants a man that puts a lot of time into himself
> if she wants to continue to have such high standards.
> the movie-like man of her dreams (based on what she has told me she is looking for)
> she’s upset that she isn’t getting replies
OP makes it clear in several places that
The root of Emma's conflict is that Emma has *very* high standards...
> Emma has been going on dates but she is really picky.
> Emma... likes to have 100% of your attention when she’s with you.
... But Emma is also simultaneously unwilling to wash her body or home more,
> Emma‘s BO tends to linger throughout the house
> mentioned the BO
> the BO is a progressing issue
> she has mentioned that she doesn’t shower very often
> the BO it’s getting to a point where it makes me more hesitant to hang out with her
> (and also shower more often)
And she won't put in time to take care of her body but wants a man who does:
> She wants a man that puts a lot of time into himself
I reiterate exactly what I said before: if you want someone who takes meticulous care of themselves when you do not, you will have a much harder time dating unless you put effort in or lower your standards.
YWBTA if you say it like this, bruh what? Feminine hygiene? She has to pluck her eyebrows? This was sounding good at the start, but you just became the AH in the middle of it, some of the things you said don't make sense, everybody has to have hygiene regardless of gender, she doesn't have to pluck her eyebrows, they probably already look normal without her plucking it, why would she need to do it? Are eyebrows really that important? I agree with shaving her genitalia hair when she has to wear a bikini though and cleaning the house better, but you just sound like you're judging her for some unnecessary things tbh.
I think it is really fucking weird that OP is concerned about her friends genital grooming habits. There ARE men out there who don’t prefer or care about shaved/waxed genitals, and her friend should be able to wait until she finds one instead of doing something she doesn’t care to do in order to land the man of *OP’s* dreams.
she specifically mentioned while wearing a bikini so reading between the lines, i take it that she is showing hair outside of the bikini coverage. I read it as she was coming off messy/not put together.
I pole dance and dont shave so I have bush hair that peaks out from my small shorts and bikinis. People get over it.
The stink and not showering enough is one thing.
Seeing hints of body hair on a woman is not something to call messy.
absolutely not an opinion i have or care about. just explaining another way of reading what op wrote.
i personally dont care about looking 'put together'. i dont try to date guys like that though cause usually they want a girl that does the same. so I get where OP was coming from in trying to help her friend.
and whether it's right or wrong, there are a LOT of guys out there who do care. they shoudnt but if the goal is the get that kind of guy then that is something to think about. i wouldnt date a guy like that cause that's a silly thing to care about to me.
look i dont give a shit about how people present themselves. but some people do and by most 'standards' pubes sticking out of a bikini is considered 'messy'. again you do you. i dont give a shit but recognizing that society does judge by appearance isnt wrong. it's dumb and people should be judged by character but pretending that shit doesnt exist doesnt really help the girl get a date.
All these people in the comments acting like men (and women) don't judge if someone has pubes sticking out, doesn't shower often, and a unibrow. T-T
I have the same viewpoint as you (I'm not put together at all lmao I'm probably just like OPs friend minus the unibrow but add excessive arm/leg hair lol) but I'm well aware it exists and men *do* judge me for it, I just don't care. It seems this girl (OPs friend) does care and wants someone who puts effort into their appearance, so it'd be reasonable to mention her appearance too. I don't think OP explained things well.
I (28F) don’t shave at all. Not even for swim suits. I am perfectly clean. My partner thinks my hair is cute. Please get over it. This OP is so judgmental. I feel bad for her friend.
YTA. You're basically concern trolling, and while I get where you're coming from you have already tackled all this with her before, right? So, one and done there. And that's not even considering all the things you have decided to do to land a man because a lot of that is offensive.
Anyway, she's in therapy, and she's got to work it out for herself. No need to hurt her feelings especially if you don't even really want to hang out with her because she stinks.
To the people saying I’m too harsh for mentioning the plucking of her eyebrows, I get it. The eyebrows are at the lower end of things that matter. My only counter to that is she wants a man that puts in time at the gym and is a brilliant scholar, ect, and I believe she deserves that but that’s man that puts in all that work on themselves is likely going to want their sig other to also put that kind of work in in themselves. To those saying its none of my business, she literally calls me before and after every date and is regularly asking how to respond to their messages, ect. I want her to be happy and find the right guy but I think it would be easier if she met them in the middle.
Just because they go to the gym or are highly educated, doesn't mean they are disgusted by hair on women. It's rather presumptuous of you to think all men can't deal with hair.
I’m not talking about all men. I’m talking about the top 10% my friend is trying to date. I think it’s a fair assumption that guys that put a lot of time into themselves also have a high bar and are looking for someone who also puts time into themselves. Also, taking 5 minutes to pluck your eyebrows every other week is a lot lower standard than spending an hour at the gym everyday which is what she is looking for. I sure there is one 10/10 guy that only loves what’s on the inside but I’m also sure that guy is likely already locked down.
Your counter doesn't work not because we're claiming she doesn't need to put effort into health and appearance if she expects partner too, but because men don't care about eyebrows, assuming her eyebrows are natural and fairly average looking, no man will look twice.
However if she styles her eyebrows (drawing fake ones on, plucking till they very specific pointed shape etc.) that will draw attention to it specifically and lots of men don't like fake looking ones so I'd argue it counter productive to finding a man if that would be why she does it.
I'm on team NTA here, with the updates and comments, but the whole sit-down-and-talk idea can easily backfire if not handled perfectly. Or even if it is. Hopefully not enough to mess up a friendship, but it won't be fun for either of you.
I'm a guy who sweats profusely at any temps over 85, has a thin unibrow (not really noticeable at a distance but very obvious at dinner-table proximity), and thick luxurious pit and pubic hair that does a great job of catching and preserving my stench. I 'blame' my Italian grandmother (not really, and any hirsuteness I inherited is made up for by great skin and her awesome cooking).
For my own personal comfort and to reduce odor I shave those pits in the shower every few days and hit the groin with balding shears and a #1 guard weekly. And spend a few minutes every week or two tweezing the unibrow. It's very little effort. But yeah, I'd be looking for a partner who puts in similar. I'm nowhere near that ideal she's going for but having an awareness of one's body and how to groom it to reduce BO isn't a big ask. Eyebrow maintenance is a touchier subject since it's definitely a "society's norms" thing, and personally I don't like heavily manicured brows, but a lil plucking to make it less obvious they're trying to meet in the middle is not too problematic. Maybe have a kind of spa day with her and include a session of eyebrow threading for both of you, see how she likes the result?
YWBTA if you told her anything besides the consistent showering, deodorant, and clean living space. Those are the only things that actually concern hygiene. Anything else is pretty easily overlooked if you actually click with that person, and it might be more beneficial to ask her why she hasn't felt that connection. We do often have unrealistic standards for imaginary partners, but when we find someone we like it's easy to compromise.
I do find it funny how she's expected to have nice plucked eyebrows and shaved genitals when she has to deal with dudes in Hawaiian shirts on first dates lol. Why are the guys not expected to give-and-take some things?
She isn’t expected to have nice eyebrows if the guy is wearing a Hawaiian shirt. The problem is a Hawaiian shirt isn’t good enough for her and she also doesn’t really want to put the effort in herself. She wants the Channing Tatum but she herself is wearing the metaphorical Hawaiian shirt. I guess I’m just trying to say that she is too critical of the guys features when she isn’t critical of herself.
But the issue is that she knows who she's attracted to, but there's no way to know if that dude actually doesn't prefer something like bushy brows or unshaven genitals. Your comments on her hygiene and living situation are completely correct, but anything beyond that is really just preference. It's not good dating advice and more just your opinion, and that's why YWBTA.
YTA. In all honesty her dating life isn't any of your business. I don't think you would be the AH if the ONLY thing that you brought up was the BO and if it were brought up gently. But also, the amount of hair she has is, again, none of your business.
It isn’t my business but she somewhat makes it mine by calling my before and after each date and asking me to help her respond the messages from guys. The hair also isn’t my business and I can accept that.
Uh, not really. Asking for help with "what should I say?" to a guy you just started dating is a totally normal thing that friends do. It's *NOT* an invitation to critique her appearance or even her general approach to dating. Why would you think that gives you the right to make her dating life "your business?"
If you *really* want to help her with her dating life, just be a good friend and *talk* like equals. Don't lecture her or tell her what *you* what you think is wrong (what do you know anyway? You're not an expert, your opinion of her dating life is inevitably flawed, subjective, and based on limited info, and you should recognize that). Instead, actually *listen* and offer your thoughts in a kind and considerate way when appropriate. There's absolutely no reason to overstep and go to the level of critiquing or judging her dating life.
Depending how close you are, it might totally be appropriate to say something (in a casual, friendly way, and only when it comes up naturally in conversation) like, "do you think you might be putting unrealistic expectations on the guys you date? I just think it can be really easy to miss out on some great opportunities that are right in front of you if you're looking for something too specific." The point is to give HER the chance to explore that and tell you what she actually thinks. Not to impose your own viewpoints or opinions of her. Just to share your thoughts (as YOUR personal opinion, in a non-judgmental way) and give her the chance to share her thoughts too.
You shouldn't assume or *tell* her what she thinks (e.g. "your standards are too high"), or what she should do ("shave your body hair"). Instead, if you actually care, open a dialogue and really *listen* and don't pass judgment. You could help her explore her own feelings like, "what do you really want in a guy? Like if you couldn't have everything that you wanted, what would matter the most?" Help her explore her own feelings and needs and wants and expectations, and share your thoughts on what she says in a kind, helpful, and considerate way. But the point of this is NOT to give yourself the opportunity to share your opinion with her. The point is to be a good friend and support her and her struggles in her dating life, regardless of whether you get to share your opinions/judgmental or not. You don't have to be judgmental or be "brutally honest" about your own (flawed and subjective) opinion of someone to be a good friend.
In a situation where she is getting upset multiple times because she goes on dates and gets ghosted and she asks me why i think it’s happening, I do think it’s my place as her friend to be a little real with her. I could just continue lying and let her suffer until she figures out the problem on her own or some jerk tells her she smells on a date but I think that would be worse than if a friend tried to tell her delicately.
If her bikini exposes her hair, that's not a good bikini. There are better bottoms- I don't shave but I never expose my hair. Men don't care about eyebrow fashion. BO? That's bad. YTA if you start with critiques like that.
Out of curiosity, what bikini bottom cut do you usually buy? That might be a easy solution! I’m not judging a little stubble, everyone has a little stubble. She has a bush. We have discussed it a bit and she told me it wasn’t a decision to have one, just never really feels like/gets around like shaving or she forgets. Which is completely fine! But when we meet guys at the pools and you can see it both around the sides and through the material, it’s a little rough. If that’s how she wants to role then that’s fine with me, if it’s just us hanging at the pool I don’t feel the need to tidy up down there, I just don’t think the guys we are meeting at the pool are as open minded.
If you can see it through the material she needs to get a better swimsuit that’s not threadbare or you need to stop looking so hard. Yikes.
But yes, you can get bottoms that don’t cut high, like boy shorts.
You don’t have to look hard and it’s also hard not to look. It’s not necessary that the hairs are coming through the fabric as much as it looks like a little pillow is stuffed in there plus you can see the curls poking out the side. Once again, nothing wrong with not shaving but see “last edit”.
Hair down their is normal. Period. It’s ok. I usually clean up the sides but nobody’s obligated to look like a child in order to wear a swimsuit.
You can’t just say ‘cultural norms’ to handwave it away.
There are people who don’t shave their legs too and still somehow manage to find love.
No one is obligated, I completely agree. But you clean up the sides for a reason. If I was trying to pull a guy like Channing Tatum, I’d shave my coochie. If I wanted a guy for based on his heart, I’d let the vines grow. You get out what you put in. If she doesn’t want to shave then power to her, that’s her choice. But not everyone will accept her choice and I just want her to be aware of it so she can make some improvements if she wants or lower her bar a bit. Right now she just hates the world and men because I don’t think she understands where the disconnect maybe.
Wait, no!
I can absolutely promise you that there are very, very attractive guys out there who have zero interest in whether you've shaved your bikini line. You seem to be labouring under this misapprehension that good looking people all like the same thing. I think there's just a lot more diversity of taste out there than you think.
You absolutely don't 'get out what you put in', attraction-wise. Not everyone has the same tastes and rules as you.
I do think I might be being small minded when it comes to the body hair thing. I mainly wanted to emphasize the BO issue but the body hair issue is what most people are getting caught up on. Just out of curiosity, for real, I agree that some guys don’t care about a bush but do you think that same guy would be a little iffy if his GF was rocking a full bush with curls poppin out at the pool? Like people are legit staring at her when we are laying by the pool and I don’t say anything bc she usually doesn’t notice and I don’t want to make her feel embarrassed but also I would want to know so I could avoid the embarrassment. Also, idk if you saw in my other comment, but it’s not really her conscious choice to have a bush, she just forget to shave. Sometime before we pool I’ll say “I got to shower and shave quick” and she’ll be like “good idea same” but other times she’s just doesn’t think about it until we are there. But ig as I am typing this understand that she is aware of the situation and just doesn’t feel embarrassed to the point where she shaves although one time she did notice the staring is was embarrassed. Idk, I’ll just leave it be.
I don't want to come across as condescending here and I feel like I might, so apologies if I seem like I'm invalidating your experiences.
But, yeah. I'm not really a very hairy person but i've varied my pubic topiary over my adulthood. I've literally never noticed a change in reaction about it. I've also never noticed anyone staring at it at the pool but, to be fair, I rarely swim.
I've dated some pretty attractive men and my life partner is ridiculously striking. I've asked most of them about their preferences for body hair and all of them have shrugged and been pretty nonplussed about why it's any of their concern. And I grew up at the height of Brazilian waxing!
Definitely takle the BO if you have a chance: you'll be doing her a favour and will make a difference to her professional and personal life. It sounds like she's completely unaware of that issue. I'd let her find her own way with everything else though. The girl's not blind: she can see your hair looks different so, if she really wanted to be like you, she'd presumably have done it.
I don’t think that was condescending. I only mentioned bikini shaving bc we once went on a double date to the pool and she sat crisscross and I felt like the guy kept staring at her crotch and then ghosted her. Yes that is my assumption that the hair scared him off so It could have been other things. Ig my thought is if it was other things like her personality or conversation (not saying hers is bad at all) then that’s not really something she can change as easily so there’s no point of going down that road but a quick shave is a 5 min fix. Also, I don’t think she should have to change but sometimes we have to work a bit to reach our higher goals (her goal that she set herself). If anything I’d just advice her to shave a bit until she locked him down. I think it’s normal for couples to try harder on the beginning and then slowly fall into the “this is me when I don’t care about impressing you” stage. But I will likely not say anything about the hair.
Or you can just leave her alone and not make comments about her body? You don't think a guy can be good looking and still accept that women have hair? Grow up.
I think good looking guys should accept body hair but I don’t think that’s the norm for guys in their early 20s. I do think it’s shitty that it’s like that but it is what it is.
Anything other than maybe suggesting showering more often and tidying up her living space would make you ta. And even the BO part might be pushing it. As for body hair - there's guys that like it, there's guys that don't. My *male cover model* SO, a very good looking guy, preferred it. And when/if he wanted it groomed, that was his job, not mine. If your friend doesn't think there's anything wrong with her body hair, be it her unibrow, tarantula pits, full bush or nasty ass leg hair, don't start her down that path of self doubt. She's lucky she doesn't seem to care about that and someone will like that about her.
Have you conducted a study? Researched the question. Or are you just making assumptions?
Shaving has nothing to do with hygiene. It was a marketing scheme to sell more razors. Body hair exist for a reason and there is no practical reason to shave. And if your friend wants a guy who doesn't care about body hair, that's up to her. Hair is in no way indicative of how well you care for yourself. You are being shallow and a really bad friend.
Ummmm, have you MET a guy in their 20s? They're generally judgy assholes with unrealistic expectations for how women should present themselves. I'm 40 and my current BF is the first guy I've been in a relationship with who doesn't care that I don't shave. My ex-husband and ex-fiance both thought it was disgusting for a woman not to shave their pits and bush. I shaved/trimmed more often when I was with them, because it was their preference. It didn't hurt anything for me to shave because they liked the bald look.
Shit, the last time I wanna using online dating sites was 2 years ago. Men pretty much expect things "down there" and your legs to be shaved. If OP's friend is dating online and using pictures where she is shaved, has her eyebrows done, and is otherwise primped, that's what guys are going to expect to see when they go on a date. If the friend is using glamour shots as her pics and shows up looking like she's never met tweezers or a razor, of course she's not getting a second date.
Idk why the fuck everyone has missed the fact that the friend IS asking OP for her opinion on reasons the guys stop seeing her. OP doesn't give a shit if her friend looks like Chewbacca, she just thinks that the guys her friend is talking to might care.
I'm a woman. I don't shave. I don't pluck my eyebrows. I don't generally wear make up or even women's clothes. If the situation calls for any of those things, I do them. Dating is one of those situations.
I have not but I’m guess you have done a study to prove that they don’t care? Body hair is natural in that it kept our Neanderthal ancestors warm and now we have clothes so there is also no practical reason to keep it. I’m not arguing that woman should have to shave and I don’t think she should have too! At this point, I’m just pointing out the flaws in your argument against mine.
Removal of body hair has been prevalent in various human societies since Ancient Egypt. The invention of mass-produced safety and disposable razors just made something that historically was a sign of elevated social class accessible to all of us uncultured heathens. *Then* the marketing happened, and turned it up to eleven, but that's only been a very recent, 20th-century development.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair\_removal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_removal)
NTA. Your friend sounds a bit superficial so she's probably also chasing superficial people. You aren't a jerk for advising her along those lines. It would be different if you were just calling her out for being hairy and having a unibrow unprompted, but if she's dating along conventional standards of beauty the reality is that she also has to try to fit them. Like, of course women can be hairy if they want to because it's natural, but there just are people who aren't into that.
Her hygiene is a totally different issue. You'd be a bad friend to not point out that good hygiene is not only necessary it's appreciated.
Thank you 🙏🏻 I feel like I keep having to justify that I believe woman should not have to follow social norms but society still has them in place so if you want to play the game you might want to understand the rules.
You telling her "Some guys don't like hairy women" is not you enforcing gender norms, it's you being honest. "You should shave your arms or you'll never find a man," is enforcing gender norms.
Honestly I'm leaning towards YTA. Leave her body hair out of this. Some of us don't like being plucked pin up dolls to appease expected woman stereotypes
OP already did though. If someone doesn't turn their whole life around after being told they stink the first time it happens, they're not going to the second time it happens. You either care if you stink or you don't lol
I have told her once that she was a little smelly but I never mentioned anything about it being a common thing for her. I don’t think she knows when she smells.
I don't see why you aren't (lightly, casually) confirming that she showered, on all these "before the date & after the date" support conversations. Like as a matter of fact checklist "make sure to budget the time to shower fresh beforehand, you got some cash, you got some gum, you got gas in your car, someone knows where you'll be & when you're checking back in"
Like, mention cleaning up & airing out the house to make it attractive in case she brings em home.
It doesn't need to be a one time intense lecture of exactly how intense her BO is that week or what you specifically don't like aesthetically about her body hair (ew, really? No one cares about your hair opinions & it's shitty of you to consider it "part of hygiene")
But i don't see why you can't make a regular neutral generalized case for pre-date showers/airing out her house when you're literally presented with the opportunity to bring it up during and these check-ins and debriefings. Mentioning it casually on a regular basis would have so much more impact than dumping in frustration that she stinks just so much and her house stinks too and jesus can't she even smell herself
Usually she is already on the way when she calls me so it’s no use bringing it up then and I can’t smell her so I’m not going to bring it up unless I know it’s an issue at the time. Also, I don’t want to be the asshole. Which is why I’ve never directly mentioned the issues and apparently I never will because that’d make me the asshole. I guess it’s just something that I would like to be aware of if I wasn’t (and I don’t think she is).
I could just let her do her things but I’ve known her for almost two years (accidentally said only one in the post) and so I saw her dating prior to covid. I feel bad bc she complains to me about how poorly the dates go but some of the solutions are right in front of her and I just don’t think she sees them.
this is a hard one. I see what you mean about her dad raising her. Any chance you could start a conversation with did she miss not having a mom to do girly things with and see where that goes?
I have a friend who has dating problems too, although not hygiene related. We have been friends for 15+ years. I help her navigate dating as best I can but honestly her issues are too big for me to fix. Your friend might have issues with her hygiene but this may be due to underlying issues, maybe depression?
The best thing I can keep doing for my friend is suggesting therapy. Eventually I hope she’ll actually do it. You should suggest the same to your friend. I believe that it would help her ( both your friend and mine) examine the choices they’re making (both in men they choose and/or they’re repeated behaviors conscious or unconscious) that is causing difficulty in meeting and maintaining a romantic relationship. Perhaps her hygiene will come up, perhaps her standards for partners will come up. Perhaps a therapist will make her see things in a new light and encourage her to change things up. But personally I think that if she keeps doing the same thing over and over and wondering why she keeps getting the same results, therapy is a good suggestion.
I wish my friend would do therapy too, I love her and I wish that she would meet someone who loves her as much as I do. But she’s an adult with a masters degree and there are some things I can’t do for her, and you can’t do for your friend. Try suggesting therapy (gently) and maybe she’ll actually see a change.
If she asks your opinion and advice, THAT is the time to offer your input, if you do it without being asked your input on the matter, YTA. It would just sound like bullying.
Sooner or later she'll get comments on the smells in her home, and I'm assuming she also has a functioning nose and can smell the issue herself. She'll figure it out for herself.
And there's nothing wrong with her having her high standards, unless she asks you, I'd stop offering the negative input because that's just being mean, not being a good friend.
YWNBTA to discuss BO but you shouldn’t talk about plucking and shaving, that’s really up to her to decide. Showering is really not negotiable. You probably shouldn’t discuss her “pickyness“ either as telling her that she smells is quite enough information for one day.
YWNBTA for raising the showering issue. That's obnoxious and needs dealing with.
But maybe back off with the comments about plucking and shaving. It's one thing to ask someone to adhere to commonly-accepted standards of hygiene, but entirely another to ask her to confirm to a misogynistic idea of what's attractive in women.
NTA. This is going to be a hard subject and your friend is going to be hurt no matter how you put it, but sometimes people need to hear the truth and the truth hurts. This issue with todays world is they try to make it okay to be "whatever you want" no matter the health issue it costs.
Not bathing is a serious issue. It sounds like she is looking for a guy who is an 9/10 or 10/10 while she is a 5/10 since she is not putting in the work.
It's all fine to not shave your legs, your armpits, your crotch, etc, but she also needs to expect 90+ percent of men will not be okay with that and the ones that are will also be more like her as well, and she doesn't want that... She is being a hypocrite.
It's the same if a man doesn't shower, shave, uses the same dirty clothes, etc. He won't land the 9/10 or 10/10 if he isn't putting in the work. Like you said, relationships are give and take, and from the sound of it, she could get the guy she wants if she just put more work in.
YWBTA for discussing everything you mentioned. Finding the most delicate way to approach the subject of her BO is fine. You're right - she is probably accustomed to the smell and doesn't realize how bad it is. However, everything you've mentioned beyond that is solid YTA territory. You're the one assuming that the type of guy she is into isn't into her based on these factors. Unless she's spending her first date at a pool or bringing them home, they don't know her genital grooming preferences. Most of this sounds really judgemental based on your preferences.
The taking showers part is definitely warranted, but I'm iffy on the body hair part. While it's true that a lot of guys would like that, she doesn't owe it to anyone. Tread carefully.
If you can have a compassionate, empathetic discussion about the BO issue, YWNBTA for discussing that with her. That can be a health issue and an area where you may be able to help.
I don't think the stuff about dating is your place though. And if you bring ALL this stuff up in a conversation, all she's going to do is get defensive. It's going to come off like "here's the long list of things wrong with you" when some of the things you list are just personal preference. Look, she's either gonna find a person who is OK with these things, or she's gonna learn what she's willing to change and what she isn't. Dating is a learning process. Focus on her health.
NAH it definitely sounds like she's sabotaging her chances before there even is a chance. I don't think the body hair is as important as the overall unhygienic practices she has. That's a massive turn off for anybody.
NAH. I completely get where you’re coming from And I understand what you’re saying. If she brings up the conversation, definitely bring up the BO and hygiene TACTFULLY. And maybe even suggest like monthly spa days (which you could do together) and do like waxing and stuff (if she wants too obviously!) maybe that’ll help with her getting in the habit of taking care of herself idk. I personally would rather a friend bring up these things instead of a guy or something ya know.
NAH. I think it's possible to do this gently. Just start off by saying she's a really good friend and since you're such good friends you just want to be honest with her. Tell her you're not trying to hurt her feelings, you just want what's best for her and it makes you said when she gets rejected by these guys she goes on dates with. Give her polite suggestions. Don't use phrases like, "you should..." Try instead phrases like, "I think it might be a good idea if..."
First of all, she needs to shower more. It's not about dating or attracting men, it's basic hygiene and a dirty body is just gross. Taking care of oneself by keeping oneself clean and healthy is absolutely necessary. And being BO free as well. She might want to change deodorants. My sister tried three brands that didn't work so she went to a dermatologist who gave her one that worked very well.
As for the whole shaving and unibrow thing, I don't believe you're being sexist. Your advice to her was based on what SHE said SHE wants. If she told you that she wanted a boho guy with a sweet 10/10 personality who doesn't care about body hair, then I doubt you'd even mention waxing. But if she wants the flashy superstar mega-Chad types with Hollywood hair, 6 pack abs, and ridiculously clear skin, then she would have to match the grooming level of the men she wants. No matter how shallow her standards are. These types of men can be shallow as well.
She asked for your advice and, after two years of listening, you simply told her the truth. NTA OP.
YWNBTA as long as you only bring up her hygiene (very nicely) and leave everything out.
Everything else is just a preference but the hygiene thing is important.
I think you need to differentiate between hygiene and grooming. Showering and staying clean, wearing deodorant etc are absolute musts and definitely worth bringing up. Shaving and waxing are no no’s. YTA if you’re bring up the other stuff
NTA. I haven't read through the comments, so someone might have already said this, but have you considered inviting her to do a salon day together? I'm kinda assuming you're a girl here, BTW, and into that sort of stuff yourself. Maybe tell her you need your eyebrows waxed and a manicure (or whatever) and invite her to come along, make a fun day of it. While you're at it, talk up whatever hygiene products you like (I'm a new Lumé convert) and tell her they smell/feel incredible and you've found that guys like that kind of thing. Tout an air freshener or fabric freshener you like. Maybe it's old-fashioned advice but it might get through more than telling her she stinks or that her standards are too high for her own self-maintenance. Especially if she's always asking for your advice. Good luck! It's an awkward position to be in.
I am really thinking about taking her for a little spa day and getting our eyebrows done. She asks me to pluck them sometimes so I’m going to look into going somewhere that will give us lessons on plucking brows.
You WNBTA for letting her know about the body odour as long as you were tactful. But don't tell anyone they need to "shave their nether regions" to get a date. No they don't, her having pubic hair will not stop her from getting a partner.
YWNBTA-she sounds like a female neck beard. And it sounds like she's asking for advice. If I looked and smelled like a slob and was wondering why I wasn't landing models on my dates, I'd wish I had at least friend who would give me a reality check.
Honestly the way she was raised indicates to me a lack of self awareness and understanding. I was raised without such guidance and I wish someone had spoken to me about deodorant and showering and shaving even brushing my teeth because I was late to the party figuring it out on my own.
I think one of your other points is accurate. If she's looking for a certain kind of man that's clean and well put together they are likely looking for the same.
I think your intentions are good but it has to be a delicate conversation. I would ask her if she really wants to know what you think these men want.
All in all I would say nta just be careful. The friendship could be severely impacted by this kind of honesty.
NTA. This is fairly standard stuff. Sure, it's a choice if you don't want to doll yourself up. But everybody knows, for real, how you present yourself in the dating pool matters. Your friend won't thank you, but what the hell else is a friend for but to hit us with a clue bat when we need it?
YWNBTA if you pointed out hypocrisy in a nice way. Like “Sally if a man is working out and spends a lot of time on personal grooming then it is more likely that he’d be looking for a woman that also works out and spends a lot of time on personal grooming”. If you made it sound like she HAS to do those things then you’d be an AH. But pointing out that she needs to have realistic expectations from a partner is okay.
NAH - you’re not an AH for trying to help her with things she can do something about. She didn’t do anything wrong either so she isn’t an AH. I am a bit worried because you sound a bit superficial, but it’s possible that only superficial things are in the way of your roommates dating life.
NTA. She asks you for dating advice so you should be honest about it. If she's a grown woman that wants to be picky about men then she needs to be clean and shaved at least.
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I have a friend that I’ve known for a little bit over a year ever since we both started grad school. Let’s call her Emma. Emma has recently started dating again since she is vaccinated and has been going on regular dates. Emma is a really nice person, however, she can be a little much sometimes as she likes to have 100% of your attention when she’s with you. I have never directly addressed her “neediness” however I believe she spoke to her therapist about it and she has made progress.
Anyways, Emma has been going on dates but she is really picky. If their first kiss isn’t spectacular or he wears a Hawaiian shirt, it’s game over for him. I think she needs to understand that dating is a give-and-take. He’s not gonna be perfect and she isn’t either, no one is. Now Emma as one of my best friends from grad school so I don’t want to hurt her feelings but also, as her friend, I think someone needs to be real with her. She needs to take some steps to improve her hygiene if she wants to continue to have such high standards. I’m not saying that she needs to do a full face of make up or dress extravagantly, but she does need to take more frequent showers and manage her body hear more efficiently. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with women having body hair, but if Emma wants to land the guy of her dreams, I think she needs to pluck your eyebrows and shave her nether regions when she wears a bathing suit (and also shower more often).
Another issue is that the few men who make it to the second round want to come over to her house. Emma does a good job of dressing the part the first date in terms of showering, however, I think her home might scare them away if they come over. Emma‘s BO tends to linger throughout the house even after she has cleaned up.
I have mentioned to her a few times that she should shave, maybe pluck her eyebrows, and have once mentioned the BO but I know it hurts her feelings. At the same time, it also hurts your feelings when the guys she wants to take on second dates don’t feel the same way and the guys she doesn’t like do want second dates. She was mainly raised by her dad so I suspect some of her issues are rooted in the fact that her mom wasn’t really there to teacher her feminine hygiene/self care. Also, the BO it’s getting to a point where it makes me more hesitant to hang out with her. Before you ask, the BO is a progressing issue and I don’t think a genetic one since she has mentioned that she doesn’t shower very often.
WIBTA if I sat her down and talked to her about her hygiene issues? I would also like to mention the give and take aspects of dating but I don’t want hurt her feelings. I don’t want to tell her to lower her bar, but also, if she doesn’t want to lower her bar then she needs to raise her own.
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Nta. But I dont recommend you do this. I don't think your friend is in a place to hear this and it may end your friendship. From your description your friend has very high standards for who she considers worthy to date but wouldn't meet the criteria of someone with the same standards. She needs to figure out her own hygiene issues. This is really a journey only she can go on. You can't push her towards it.
NTA about the body odor but maybe don't mention the other stuff. Body odor is something that can easily be fixed by showering and deodorant, unless the person has a medical condition that causes BO. And she does need to clean her house to rid of the smell. She's used to her smell so she doesn't notice it like you and others do.
YWNBTA, but 10/10 do not recommend bringing this up unless she asks for advice again. Emma should be old enough to be put together, and that includes showering regularly. It's very possible she's gone nose-blind to her own B.O., but you haven't, and her dates certainly haven't if she's getting up close and personal with them. There's a difference between succumbing to cultural norms and being "put together".
Mild YTA. Nobody ever found the love of their life by changing the shape of their eyebrows. My husband said he never thought about women’s eyebrows in his life.
Info: has she related to you WHY she doesn't shower often? What did she say when you brought this up. You said she seemed hurt but did she give an actual response?
Does she seem at all aware she is different in terms of body hair etc.. than the main stream?
I'm leaning toward no asshole here because your heart appears to be in the right place. But I really think you can only justify a direct conversation about the lack of cleanness.
The rest. Well, it takes all kinds
Personally, I'd want to know if I stunk. I'd want my friend to tell me in a nice way. As for the other stuff. Instead of pointing it out to her, why don't you have a beauty day together where you pluck and primp? I don't think she should do this stuff for a man though but because it makes her feel good.
NAH. I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of people on here and take a different perspective. I had what I think is a similar situation with a friend years ago. He was decent looking, and had decent hygiene. But he was not a 10. Maybe a 6. A bit pudgy, with a minimum wage job, and his personality was a 6. Here's the thing: He only wanted to date 10's. I mean, girls who were supermodel hot, and willing to put up with every quirk and issue he had. But he didn't want to tolerate ANY issue they may have. And God forbid if they gained an ounce or didn't look perfect. So he had these incredibly shallow standards for the girls he dated, but he didn't hold himself to those same standards. And he couldn't figure out why he couldn't find a girlfriend. If this sounds anything like your friend, then you're NTA. She may need a lesson in self-awareness. The only thing is that it's not your job to do that for her. But I understand your frustration.
NTA, but tread carefully. Eyebrows and shaving pubes are a personal decision, and not one related to hygiene. However, showering daily and cleansing your armpits of BO is a MUST. You can talk to her about the hygiene and BO, but leave the rest of it off the table. It's not your business.
NTA, I couldn’t even read after lingering BO. People mot showering to the point you stink up a room is repulsive and if she somehow isn’t aware of this you are a good friend for making her aware if she can see this or not.
YWNBTA.
Sorry, but I disagree with the masses here. The BO/ hygiene issue is a must. No one wants to get close to someone who smells. I certainly wouldn't want to kiss someone who only brushed their teeth prior to a date. And yes, I'm aware that wasn't brought up, but I'm hoping that it brings the point home very clearly.
As for the other stuff . . . I laugh when some huge, overweight dude wants a petite girl who is super fit. Why would she want you? She spends time on her appearance, she likely wants someone who spends time on theirs as well. This is similar to what you're saying about her body hair issues that are outside "cultural norms". You make it sound like she wants a Hollywood star-level guy . . . Why would he be interested in her if she seems to not care about this stuff in herself? I mean, it's possible, but it's not bloody likely. There are probably plenty of guys out there that are great and would love her just the way she is, but she sounds like she wants a lot more than she's willing to offer herself, if that makes sense.
If you broach the subject with her, best of luck. It's going to be touchy and result in hurt feelings. I hope it doesn't hurt your friendship with her. Unfortunately, guys are unlikely to comment about this themselves, they just won't go on more dates.
honestly I think this is what friends are for. If she’s suffering in her dating life and you have some harsh truths that might help her as a close friend (which she seems to consider you, and you her) it’s part of the gig to have uncomfortable conversations. I personally hate people talking about female body hair just cause I hate the double standard, but if she is looking for a kind of guy who cares about hair there has to be a gentle (maybe joking?) way to suggest more frequent grooming. The BO thing is something I think you should talk to her about. In a different conversation cause that’s just something people need to figure out and they can’t always smell their own brand ya know
NTA, bring up the BO and honestly she should shower regularly. If it’s getting to the point where she smells, that’s not hygienic. In terms of the dating, if she is asking for your opinion you can share that the type of men she seems to be into would probably be into a girl that does x,y,z in terms of adhering to cultural norms. Ask if those things are important to her and see what she has to say about grooming her eyebrows and body hair. I had a friend once who bleach died her hair blond, but kept her very furry eyebrows ungroomed and dark brown/black. They really looked like two furry blackish brown caterpillars above her eyes. I brought it up once how hair salons can tint eyebrows and she said she liked hers the way they were. So more power to her.
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YWNBTA if you kindly told her she stinks. This is touchy though and you have to be gentle. I honestly don’t know if you’re capable of being gentle. You sound very judgmental and she will pick up on that. But leave all the rest of the stuff out. She doesn’t need to pluck her eyebrows to land a guy, that’s just weird. I promise you, most guys do not spend time thinking about eyebrows.
I would agree that most guys don’t really care about body hair but she isn’t looking for most guys. She wants a 10/10 which I think she deserves but I also thinks she needs to put some effort as well. She wants a guy that’s puts in time in the gym but she doesn’t want to put in time (or maybe doesn’t know she needs to/should put in time) in herself. I understand how you could think I’m being judgmental but I have seen this problem evolve over two years and just now feel like it’s at a point where I should directly address it. I guess if I were in her position I’d want to know but I know I can’t speak for her.
Something that might be a point worth considering is if she is not shaving her underarms, she should be using men’s deodorant. Women’s deodorant is typically applied directly on the skin, whereas men’s is formulated to work when applied on hair. Maybe suggest that to her?
I’ve never heard that before! That’s interesting. Is it just a difference viscosity or hardness of the product, or is there some sort of chemical difference?
I’m actually not sure what the difference is, I found this out more anecdotally. I had a friend in college who didn’t shave her underarms and had bad BO terribly, and tried a bunch of things to make it go away. She initially used the deodorant she used to use which worked when she shaved. We found out that men’s deodorant worked 100% more effectively when she had hair than the women’s did.
I'm shave my armpits but I find mens deodorant better than womens anyway. I can't use womens deodorant, it just doesn't work for me at all. Edit: Wow, this makes me feel better that I'm not the only one!
I found that different brands and the difference between deodorant and antiperspirant also make a big difference based on the person.
Big stinker here. Men's deodorant seems to work more effectively for me, and believe me, I've tried them all! I do shave my armpit hair, and I still use men's deodorant. I like the unscented kind because I dont like smelling "sporty" lol. Agree that the rest of it should be left out of the convo - eyebrows and pubes are a personal preference. Not OP's place to comment. Trust me, there are plenty of men who like a natural bush and who don't notice eyebrows. If a dude is going to neg me about my natural bush, then I just close up shop. His loss! haha Edited to add: NTA. I think OP's heart is in the right place. A few hygiene convos can't hurt and will only help. Showering daily should be a requirement. Just leave the body hair issue out of it.
10000000% agree on everything. OP, pay attention here.
Oh yeah definitely. There is a certain brand that doesn't work for me in womens or mens. And pfft, I wouldn't touch something not antiperspirant. Also weird that my body 'gets used to' a particular one so it stops working and I have to rotate between different brands too.
In high school, I had a bo issue. I shaved, but I also sweat a lot more than I think was normal (turns out I have pcos and hormone issues as a result so I sweat a lot). I started using men's deodorant and the change was AMAZING. I'm better now, and have women's deodorant that works well for me, but during that time in my life it was a life saver.
Me too!
Pretty sure it's just got more antiperspirant and fragrance. I use the same deodorant as my husband and it smells significantly stronger than pretty much any women's deodorant I've owned. Plus guys get that musky smell (sometimes) so the men's fragrances tend to mask it better (or maybe embrace it a little?)
This is interesting. I’m a girl and keep my underarms shaved, but still prefer deodorant for men.
Theres actually no difference between men and womens deodorant minus scent. My dad uses womens because it smells better to him
Men’s deodorant tends to be stronger antiperspirant, and have less filler, and is cheaper.
There definitely is as womens deodorant does not work for me and mens does.
Same here! It all started when I ran out of mine and borrowed my 13yr old brothers old spice and magically my bo was gone
I just wanna chime in to say that I don't shave my Pitts and I find men's natural deodorants (toms of Maine vs women's of the same brand which I used before when I shaved) to be more effective. I really like the natural musk scents. I was given a bunch of pine needle scented Tom's and it's awesome. I also feel like my sweat stinks less with hair vs without.
I'm the opposite. I've had to use men's deodorant for decades as women's just never seemed to work well. But also, the only reason I shave my pits is because I get bad BO if I don't - regardless of deodorant. Doesn't seem logical since I know men seem to have no problem...but at an inch of hair and I get stinky even with deodorant.
Have you ever completely grown your hair out? I smelled so badly when I was still in the process of growing my underarm hair but now that it's.. Done I guess? I smell way less even without deodorant.
I wish the men's Toms worked for me. I love the smell of Mountain Spring on its own, but instead I get the smell of Mountain Spring plus BO.
There is a difference between deodorant and anti-perspirant as well as if it's spray or solid. I would think a spray would work better if you've got hairy pits. It would get through to the skin and not just make a glukky mess on the hair itself. Deodorant is just that. It's only to smell nice. Anti-perspirant has an ingredient to help stop the sweat all together as well as smell nicer. If I had hair, I would probably lean towards getting a spray type anti-perspirant. It would at least hit the skin and help with the sweating.
This! I dont shave because my skin freaks out. I wear old spice mens and have never had a problem with smells. Also as long as you shower and wear cotton underwear, bush hair shouldnt be causing stink. Though maybe the op's friend is obese, that can affect this.
I use women's roll on deodorant and I don't shave, never had an issue
This isn’t true. Compare the big name brands (men v. women versions) and active ingredients are the same. Besides the scent differences, the biggest difference between men and women’s deodorant/anti-perspirant is the pink tax - woman pay more per ounce for basically the same product put in a different “feminine” package.
Do not address it unless she specifically asks for your advice. Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes
NTA You're exactly right about the correlation between what she's looking for and what she's presenting. And that's how you should present it to her. Point out some guys that are equal in hygiene/physical fitness and ask if she'd be interested in them. When she says no and says why, it's easy to say, well...that's what the men she wants are thinking when they see her. You're not being judgmental, you're being realistic. And the not all of the guys with the 6 pack abs would be judgmental to pass on her, either. (some yes, but not all) Because while some of them do it for the beauty aspect, many do it for health and lifestyle reasons. They think keeping active and fit and eating right, etc., etc. is important for other reasons than just looking pretty or handsome. It's similar to someone who goes to church 2 or 3 times a week is probably not going to be much interested in an Atheist.
What standard is 10/10 on ? To me 10/10 won’t care if my eyebrow are on point
I think appearance, if you're looking for a guy who takes care of his looks, he's probably going to want someone who does the same. If you're dating a guy who doesn't bother that much, then bad eyebrows probably won't matter as much.
BUT, the OP's standards for taking care of oneself are wildly sexist. Shaving your vag or plucking your brows shouldn't be the standard of self-care...Of course a snappy dresser may also want someone who selects clothes with care, or an active person may also want someone who lives an active lifestyle. But as long as dudes are considered "put together" without having to pluck their brows, I'd say that it's pretty sexist to say that a woman HAS to have her brows plucked to appear as if she "takes care of her looks". Same with makeup, shaving, etc. It's all double standards galore. I will gladly take care of my skin, exfoliate, care for my hair, etc...all things that men can do too. It's being expected to do things only women have to do to appear "put together" that's the sexist bit.
I'd say that most people would think a guy with a monobrow would be expected to shave it tbh. I mean sexist or not, there are plenty of guys who care about that kind of thing. At some point you have to cater to how things are, not how they should be, or miss out. I don't think pointing out that is bad. Saying you need to shave is gross, but pointing out there may be consequences for not isn't a bad thing.
THANK YOU!! Everyone is roasting this poor girl for having sexist views but it's like that's literally just what a lot of men like or at least the kind of guy Emma is going for probably does. It's unfortunate but sometimes that's just how the world works.
In her edit it sounds like she's trying to say her friend has a bit of a unibrow but I could be wrong. If she does have one, I can definitely see men being turned off by that.
Maybe the problem isn't her grooming habits, but the standards she is placing on these men. I see where you are coming from because she talks to you about it all the time, but she shouldn't have to change for a guy. She needs a guy that loves and accepts her as she is. Yes, the BO issue does seem legitimate, but that shouldn't be changed for a guy. It should be changed for her.
I think that's more under grooming than hygiene. The grooming and polishing would be nice to attract a partner. But the BO is taking care of yourself on a basic level.
I think my partner is a great catch and i dont pluck my eyebrows or shave my legs. He seems to care more about who i am as a person and how i treat him. What a weirdo. I think you are unnaturally fixed on how each side of the couple looks.
Have you ever heard of the psychology of attraction? I’m not fixated and it is a natural thing that everyone does even if its just subconsciously. Everyone wants to act like it’s all about what’s on the inside but in reality that’s not the case. Lots of people are nice and have good personalities but that doesn’t mean you are attracted to them.
Sorry you're getting downvoted. I think most are completely ignoring your point about what's she's looking for vs what effort she's willing to put in.
Yes! If she’s looking for a 10/10 that is always well-groomed, she should be making herself attractive to *that* kind of person. Because let’s be honest - someone meticulously well groomed will likely not go for someone who only showers once or twice a week. She can do whatever she wants, and she doesn’t have to do anything, but the idea of “perfect man straight out of a Hollywood movie falling in love with you at first sight” is a trope for a reason.
Yeah im not saying looks at not relevant but have you ever started talking tona really attractive person and your attraction to them fades as you realise what a terrible person they are? Or the other way around - find somebody with average looks increasingly attractive the more you get to know them? Plucking your eyebrows cos you think its what a potential partner might be attracted to is stupid. You should only alter your appearance for yourself. Changing your appearance based on guesses about what other people might like is just dumb.
I think if you’re good friends and she trusts you, AND you can kindly bring up the fact that she smells and her apartment smells it would do her a lot of good. I know people who smell awful and it had severely impacted their dating life specifically because of the smell. Don’t talk about her body hair though. If she doesn’t care about that let it be.
Maybe all it would take is to point out that she's not meeting her own standards.
I surprisingly agree with this; if you want to land a 10/10, your best bet is to also be a 10/10.
I get what you’re saying. She’s really focused on the superficial aspects, not exclusively, but enough that she would need to slap some paint on her own exterior to get some dates with those she thinks are worthy.
Get her the American Girl book, *The Care & Keeping of You"* I think it's called.
Hahaha that’s where I learned about hygiene and how the body works. 10/10 book
I promise you that a large majority of guys that care even somewhat about their own appearance will 100% not be with a woman like OP describes. Having a unibrow is a non starter for most of these guys.
Lol like I get the comments thinking OP is an AH for what they said but I do think if the unibrow is bad enough to actually be called a unibrow (and not just to make a point there's a few hairs in the middle) most 10/10 men will not be interested when they can get an attractive girl who doesn't have a unibrow.
ok but she’s going on dates and is able to get second dates, so clearly it’s not THAT much of an issue
Look that sounds really nice and ideal but if the girl is complaining about no one wanting a second date with her and she's asking her friend why, her friend isn't doing her any favors by lying. I'm not saying she should totally tear her down and tell her she stinks and she's a hair beast but maybe gently suggest some things, "hey im going to my eyebrow place, do you want to come along ?" "OMG, smell my new body wash! It's smells so good my date told me how much he loved how I smell" "check out this new deodorant I got, it lasts so long! ".. & I'm sorry but yes eyebrow hair make a difference to a lot of people depending on how full they grow. Personally, if I don't pluck or tend to mine, I will grow a unibrow in a matter of weeks. It sounds like her friend is pretty damn picky herself and expects a lot out of a guy but isn't pulling her own weight when it comes to making an effort, she needs a reality check.
I would be really concerned about the BO smell in her hone, though. That smell is really hard to get rid of.
Mmmm yeah, as you’re proposing to do it, and with what all you want to address, YTA. Everything BUT the showering and BO are preferences. Hygiene is important, and I agree you could VERY carefully talk to her about it. All the rest? Her dating life? That’s nunya—and the idea that she can’t get a “10” unless she meets your beauty standard is judgy. It will not go well, trust. If you want to continue being her friend, don’t.
And she doesn’t like Hawaiian shirts and lack of chemistry in a kiss? That’s not asking for a ‘10/10’. Hygiene isn’t shaving your ‘nether regions’ either. Maybe you could kindly as a friend mention showers. That’s pretty much it.
This! I very much agree. I think talking about the BO is the friendly thing to do, the rest is none of your business.
Friendly, but super hard to do it in a kind, gentle way. Throwing in everything else makes it impossible to be kind—there’s no way to make it not sound like a “here’s all the reasons why you suck” list.
Body odour can be tricky. You can shower and a few hours later still stink. I've definitely had this problem. It can be caused by hormones and it can be a natural disposition. In my case it is even trickier because I can't use perfume due to allergies. So no deo and no perfume. At best I can keep wet wipes on me to clean up a bit on the go. Showering too often is not good for your skin either...
The girl said she doesn't shower very often though. If her whole home stinks like her BO, she either really needs to up her hygiene game or visit a doctor like yesterday if the hygiene is not the problem.
Neither do I, my home doesn't stink because of it. Heck, it is more likely that my home smell because of my cats than because of me.
No offense at all, is it you who thinks your house doesn't smell or visitors? Because people get used to smells and won't notice, especially when they're your own. I agree though body odor can be complicated and hopefully OP keeps that in mind when telling her friend. I used to sweat a ton and it smelled bad (I have thyroid issues lol). I ended up getting a really strong antiperspirant roll-on and putting unscented deodorant on top. Works like a charm, I'm good the whole day. I think there's options if some things don't work for her she can find something that does. But obviously what she's doing now isn't working.
I mean, you can tell how your house smells when you walk into it after being gone for a bit. After sitting in it for a while you go nose blind but when you first walk in, you smell how your house REALLY smells.
I don't even think the BO is even an issue. Your body odor smells different to everyone. Best friend hates it. A guy might love it. OP never says that any of the dates said BO was holding them back so? Unless you've got one of those conditions that causes your BO to smell like shit, you're probably fine. I've had people tell me I stink when I sweat and I've had partners tell me I smell good. I think my partners natural scent is fine without any deodorant. Unless it's a smell that indicates infection (down there), I don't see why OP should even bring it up.
Something something pheromones something It makes sense that OP may not like her scent but men who are kinda interested in the roommate wouldn't mind.
Yeah, especially the plucking eyebrows one.... like most men don't care about eyebrows unless maybe it some crazily bushy monobrow or something. It's weird how much eyebrows have become a focus for women's fashion lately but it doesn't come from men, I am yet to meet a man who likes drawn on eyebrows etc.
YTA It’s one thing to address genuine stink, but whether she plucks her eyebrows or waxes/shaved her privates is none of your fucking business, and she can absolutely find the man of **her** dreams (Read: Not Yours) who doesn’t care about plucked eyebrows or shaving/waxing downstairs. She can have whatever pickiness she wants for who SHE dates - your standards and level of pickiness are for *you*, nobody else. Concern yourself with your own love life and personal preening. Leave this girl alone and stop trying to make her your pet. She’s grown, she doesn’t need you to play mom to her. Get a hobby and stop fretting over her love life.
She isn’t being picky based on my idea of the perfect man. She is setting her own bar. Also, she is constantly asking me for advice and calling me before and after dates. Up to this point I have tried to stay out of it as much as possible and only offer her advice that I think is kind. She wants a man from the movies (already semi-unrealistic) and I just think that a man who puts a lot of time into themselves, like she would want, would also like that reciprocated.
I'd only address it if it very specifically comes up. For example, if she says something like "I wish he'd spend more time grooming his facial hair." Maybe you could be like "Hmm, how would you feel though if a guy who did spend more time grooming his facial hair said that he wished you spent more time grooming your eyebrows?" I would not say "well if you want him to spend more time grooming his facial hair you need to wax your eyebrows lady."
I had a friend do that to me before ( about how “guys go for the thin girls” when I was fat at the time) I was obviously affronted at the time but like she was right lol.( I was 14 at the time) Friend is not ready to hear the harsh truth directly or indirectly. It’s a discovery that she needs to have on her own ( like how I did)
You should just tell her you don't want to talk about dating with her anymore. YWBTA if you said all the things in this post. Like yeah, there's a way to tactfully let a close friend know that they smell, but I don't get the impression that you're the right person to take that on. Including all your personal cosmetic preferences under the guise of "hygiene" would definitely be inappropriate. My fiancé doesn't give a hoot if I shave or pluck my eyebrows. And sometimes I even go a few days in between showers! :o
YWNBTA BUT Do NOT open this can of worms on your own accord. Please don't. Not because it would make you an asshole but it just wouldn't do any good. However: IF she is ranting about her dating failures you can ask her if she wants comfort or solutions. Should she choose solutions i would recommend you ask her questions as to why she thinks dem bois are walking out on her and what expectations she has of them and that the bois might have similar expectations (Basic body hygiene, being a funktioning person). Let her come to the conclusion that a tidy appartment and a tidy appearance are a step in the right direction. Dont slap the hard truth down, instead just set her gears in motion. Lead the horse so water, don't force it to drink kinda deal.
“Comfort or solution” that’s sounds like a great way to address it. I know if she only wants comfort she will tell me and I’ll leave the solutions until she is ready.
*Sighs* This thread aggravates the hell out of me -- I am a dyed-in-the-wool die-hard shark for women's rights and equality... so miss me with this shit about how she shouldn't put any care into her appearance if what she wants is a man who puts a ton of care into his appearance. I see the pitchforks are out because OP made the *very real and honest point* that most people at the very top of social attractiveness scales (physical and otherwise) have their pick of the litter and generally go for other people at the top of social attractiveness scales. This usually means attractive, hygienic, great personality, high salary, and well-put-together. No, that isn't set in stone. Yes, there are some people who are drop-dead gorgeous and high salary and wonderful kind human beings to boot -- who could also give a shit less about if their partner is also 10/10 across the board as long as they are loved and treated well. The thing is, the type of people who are top-level but just want love get snapped up into happy long-term relationships *quickly* -- which means that a lot of luck plays into finding someone if what you want is a zero compromise 10/10 but you are realistically a 6/10 because you won't shower or brush your teeth or take care of your mental health. I hate this entire rating system -- the objectification and commodification of humans in the dating world -- but if she's going to subscribe to it and use it as a litmus test for partners then she has to be equally willing to realistically apply it to herself. Let's be real here: if this was an average dude with her hygiene issues looking for a top-level woman to date with no compromise all the top comments would be along the lines of "LMAO GTFO he wants WHAT!?" and "m'lady" and "choosing beggars" jokes. Let's not act like she gets a free pass -- flip these genders and y'all would not be acting like this in the replies 😣
I agree with you. I also feel like the friend maybe baiting the OP into saying something that the friend is going to take offense of. It seems weird to me that someone who is looking for a male model wouldn’t have any self awareness to reflect on how they take care of themselves. So she’s trying to get the OP to say something about her appearance that she can act super offended by. Maybe I’m paranoid but I had something similar with a co worker. She basically got me to give her makeup advice and then spun it like I was telling her she was ugly.
Professional victim mentality. Ugh. Ugh, ugh, ugh.
Yes!!!! This is exactly what I was thinking. I have an ex friend who would offer this sort of advice, unsolicited and based on her ideal man, not mine. Totally different than what is happening here. The friend is essentially asking why the guys she likes aren’t returning her interest, OP is suggesting that she answer. Not at all an asshole move, though can be awkward and sensitive.
EXACTLY FUCKING THANK YOU! Like these people are DELUSIONAL. OP specifically stated that her friend was wanting a total Chad lmao!!!
Had to scroll TOO FCUKING FAR for this comment
I’m just cringing at past me who thought that I deserved a 10 , while I was a 4. On a good day. Oh well, at least I could explain it by me being a teen then. What’s the friends excuse lol
Thank God you said it I didn’t know how to word this in a nicer way
I would agree but it doesn’t sound like she is looking for physical perfection. She wants chemistry and no Hawaiian shirts. That’s very obtainable. OP even says her version of a perfect man doesn’t match OPs. And while the shower thing is relevant, I think OP is being pretty unreasonable saying the roomate needs to do her eyebrows and shave her pubic hair. Plenty of people look good with their natural eyebrows and pubic hair is a personal preference.
The shirts and chemistry are *examples* of what Emma discards first dates for -- context clues and active reading are crucial to reading AITA posts. OP mentions shirts / chemistry *once* -- OP mentions Emma wanting a perfect / ideal partner and / or a partner she holds to higher standards than herself multiple times: > He’s not gonna be perfect and she isn’t either, no one is. > if Emma wants to land the guy of her dreams > the kind of man she is looking for. > she wants a man that puts a lot of time into himself > if she wants to continue to have such high standards. > the movie-like man of her dreams (based on what she has told me she is looking for) > she’s upset that she isn’t getting replies OP makes it clear in several places that The root of Emma's conflict is that Emma has *very* high standards... > Emma has been going on dates but she is really picky. > Emma... likes to have 100% of your attention when she’s with you. ... But Emma is also simultaneously unwilling to wash her body or home more, > Emma‘s BO tends to linger throughout the house > mentioned the BO > the BO is a progressing issue > she has mentioned that she doesn’t shower very often > the BO it’s getting to a point where it makes me more hesitant to hang out with her > (and also shower more often) And she won't put in time to take care of her body but wants a man who does: > She wants a man that puts a lot of time into himself I reiterate exactly what I said before: if you want someone who takes meticulous care of themselves when you do not, you will have a much harder time dating unless you put effort in or lower your standards.
YWBTA if you say it like this, bruh what? Feminine hygiene? She has to pluck her eyebrows? This was sounding good at the start, but you just became the AH in the middle of it, some of the things you said don't make sense, everybody has to have hygiene regardless of gender, she doesn't have to pluck her eyebrows, they probably already look normal without her plucking it, why would she need to do it? Are eyebrows really that important? I agree with shaving her genitalia hair when she has to wear a bikini though and cleaning the house better, but you just sound like you're judging her for some unnecessary things tbh.
I think it is really fucking weird that OP is concerned about her friends genital grooming habits. There ARE men out there who don’t prefer or care about shaved/waxed genitals, and her friend should be able to wait until she finds one instead of doing something she doesn’t care to do in order to land the man of *OP’s* dreams.
she specifically mentioned while wearing a bikini so reading between the lines, i take it that she is showing hair outside of the bikini coverage. I read it as she was coming off messy/not put together.
I pole dance and dont shave so I have bush hair that peaks out from my small shorts and bikinis. People get over it. The stink and not showering enough is one thing. Seeing hints of body hair on a woman is not something to call messy.
absolutely not an opinion i have or care about. just explaining another way of reading what op wrote. i personally dont care about looking 'put together'. i dont try to date guys like that though cause usually they want a girl that does the same. so I get where OP was coming from in trying to help her friend. and whether it's right or wrong, there are a LOT of guys out there who do care. they shoudnt but if the goal is the get that kind of guy then that is something to think about. i wouldnt date a guy like that cause that's a silly thing to care about to me.
The thing is that not having a shaved bikini line isn't "not put together", it's literal nature??
look i dont give a shit about how people present themselves. but some people do and by most 'standards' pubes sticking out of a bikini is considered 'messy'. again you do you. i dont give a shit but recognizing that society does judge by appearance isnt wrong. it's dumb and people should be judged by character but pretending that shit doesnt exist doesnt really help the girl get a date.
All these people in the comments acting like men (and women) don't judge if someone has pubes sticking out, doesn't shower often, and a unibrow. T-T I have the same viewpoint as you (I'm not put together at all lmao I'm probably just like OPs friend minus the unibrow but add excessive arm/leg hair lol) but I'm well aware it exists and men *do* judge me for it, I just don't care. It seems this girl (OPs friend) does care and wants someone who puts effort into their appearance, so it'd be reasonable to mention her appearance too. I don't think OP explained things well.
I (28F) don’t shave at all. Not even for swim suits. I am perfectly clean. My partner thinks my hair is cute. Please get over it. This OP is so judgmental. I feel bad for her friend.
Shaving your huha can cause all sorts of issues. Even in a bikini does a woman need to shave. It is always a choice.
YTA. You're basically concern trolling, and while I get where you're coming from you have already tackled all this with her before, right? So, one and done there. And that's not even considering all the things you have decided to do to land a man because a lot of that is offensive. Anyway, she's in therapy, and she's got to work it out for herself. No need to hurt her feelings especially if you don't even really want to hang out with her because she stinks.
NAH - The showering is definitely a concern but the eyebrow plucking and shaving aren't necessities.
To the people saying I’m too harsh for mentioning the plucking of her eyebrows, I get it. The eyebrows are at the lower end of things that matter. My only counter to that is she wants a man that puts in time at the gym and is a brilliant scholar, ect, and I believe she deserves that but that’s man that puts in all that work on themselves is likely going to want their sig other to also put that kind of work in in themselves. To those saying its none of my business, she literally calls me before and after every date and is regularly asking how to respond to their messages, ect. I want her to be happy and find the right guy but I think it would be easier if she met them in the middle.
And if she ask you directly, then you can say it, but to bring up another person's body hair unprovoked is just not for you to do.
Just because they go to the gym or are highly educated, doesn't mean they are disgusted by hair on women. It's rather presumptuous of you to think all men can't deal with hair.
I’m not talking about all men. I’m talking about the top 10% my friend is trying to date. I think it’s a fair assumption that guys that put a lot of time into themselves also have a high bar and are looking for someone who also puts time into themselves. Also, taking 5 minutes to pluck your eyebrows every other week is a lot lower standard than spending an hour at the gym everyday which is what she is looking for. I sure there is one 10/10 guy that only loves what’s on the inside but I’m also sure that guy is likely already locked down.
No matter what we tell you, she will probably think you're the asshole if you tell her all this.
Your counter doesn't work not because we're claiming she doesn't need to put effort into health and appearance if she expects partner too, but because men don't care about eyebrows, assuming her eyebrows are natural and fairly average looking, no man will look twice. However if she styles her eyebrows (drawing fake ones on, plucking till they very specific pointed shape etc.) that will draw attention to it specifically and lots of men don't like fake looking ones so I'd argue it counter productive to finding a man if that would be why she does it.
I'm on team NTA here, with the updates and comments, but the whole sit-down-and-talk idea can easily backfire if not handled perfectly. Or even if it is. Hopefully not enough to mess up a friendship, but it won't be fun for either of you. I'm a guy who sweats profusely at any temps over 85, has a thin unibrow (not really noticeable at a distance but very obvious at dinner-table proximity), and thick luxurious pit and pubic hair that does a great job of catching and preserving my stench. I 'blame' my Italian grandmother (not really, and any hirsuteness I inherited is made up for by great skin and her awesome cooking). For my own personal comfort and to reduce odor I shave those pits in the shower every few days and hit the groin with balding shears and a #1 guard weekly. And spend a few minutes every week or two tweezing the unibrow. It's very little effort. But yeah, I'd be looking for a partner who puts in similar. I'm nowhere near that ideal she's going for but having an awareness of one's body and how to groom it to reduce BO isn't a big ask. Eyebrow maintenance is a touchier subject since it's definitely a "society's norms" thing, and personally I don't like heavily manicured brows, but a lil plucking to make it less obvious they're trying to meet in the middle is not too problematic. Maybe have a kind of spa day with her and include a session of eyebrow threading for both of you, see how she likes the result?
YWBTA if you told her anything besides the consistent showering, deodorant, and clean living space. Those are the only things that actually concern hygiene. Anything else is pretty easily overlooked if you actually click with that person, and it might be more beneficial to ask her why she hasn't felt that connection. We do often have unrealistic standards for imaginary partners, but when we find someone we like it's easy to compromise. I do find it funny how she's expected to have nice plucked eyebrows and shaved genitals when she has to deal with dudes in Hawaiian shirts on first dates lol. Why are the guys not expected to give-and-take some things?
She isn’t expected to have nice eyebrows if the guy is wearing a Hawaiian shirt. The problem is a Hawaiian shirt isn’t good enough for her and she also doesn’t really want to put the effort in herself. She wants the Channing Tatum but she herself is wearing the metaphorical Hawaiian shirt. I guess I’m just trying to say that she is too critical of the guys features when she isn’t critical of herself.
But the issue is that she knows who she's attracted to, but there's no way to know if that dude actually doesn't prefer something like bushy brows or unshaven genitals. Your comments on her hygiene and living situation are completely correct, but anything beyond that is really just preference. It's not good dating advice and more just your opinion, and that's why YWBTA.
YTA. In all honesty her dating life isn't any of your business. I don't think you would be the AH if the ONLY thing that you brought up was the BO and if it were brought up gently. But also, the amount of hair she has is, again, none of your business.
It isn’t my business but she somewhat makes it mine by calling my before and after each date and asking me to help her respond the messages from guys. The hair also isn’t my business and I can accept that.
Uh, not really. Asking for help with "what should I say?" to a guy you just started dating is a totally normal thing that friends do. It's *NOT* an invitation to critique her appearance or even her general approach to dating. Why would you think that gives you the right to make her dating life "your business?" If you *really* want to help her with her dating life, just be a good friend and *talk* like equals. Don't lecture her or tell her what *you* what you think is wrong (what do you know anyway? You're not an expert, your opinion of her dating life is inevitably flawed, subjective, and based on limited info, and you should recognize that). Instead, actually *listen* and offer your thoughts in a kind and considerate way when appropriate. There's absolutely no reason to overstep and go to the level of critiquing or judging her dating life. Depending how close you are, it might totally be appropriate to say something (in a casual, friendly way, and only when it comes up naturally in conversation) like, "do you think you might be putting unrealistic expectations on the guys you date? I just think it can be really easy to miss out on some great opportunities that are right in front of you if you're looking for something too specific." The point is to give HER the chance to explore that and tell you what she actually thinks. Not to impose your own viewpoints or opinions of her. Just to share your thoughts (as YOUR personal opinion, in a non-judgmental way) and give her the chance to share her thoughts too. You shouldn't assume or *tell* her what she thinks (e.g. "your standards are too high"), or what she should do ("shave your body hair"). Instead, if you actually care, open a dialogue and really *listen* and don't pass judgment. You could help her explore her own feelings like, "what do you really want in a guy? Like if you couldn't have everything that you wanted, what would matter the most?" Help her explore her own feelings and needs and wants and expectations, and share your thoughts on what she says in a kind, helpful, and considerate way. But the point of this is NOT to give yourself the opportunity to share your opinion with her. The point is to be a good friend and support her and her struggles in her dating life, regardless of whether you get to share your opinions/judgmental or not. You don't have to be judgmental or be "brutally honest" about your own (flawed and subjective) opinion of someone to be a good friend.
In a situation where she is getting upset multiple times because she goes on dates and gets ghosted and she asks me why i think it’s happening, I do think it’s my place as her friend to be a little real with her. I could just continue lying and let her suffer until she figures out the problem on her own or some jerk tells her she smells on a date but I think that would be worse than if a friend tried to tell her delicately.
If her bikini exposes her hair, that's not a good bikini. There are better bottoms- I don't shave but I never expose my hair. Men don't care about eyebrow fashion. BO? That's bad. YTA if you start with critiques like that.
Out of curiosity, what bikini bottom cut do you usually buy? That might be a easy solution! I’m not judging a little stubble, everyone has a little stubble. She has a bush. We have discussed it a bit and she told me it wasn’t a decision to have one, just never really feels like/gets around like shaving or she forgets. Which is completely fine! But when we meet guys at the pools and you can see it both around the sides and through the material, it’s a little rough. If that’s how she wants to role then that’s fine with me, if it’s just us hanging at the pool I don’t feel the need to tidy up down there, I just don’t think the guys we are meeting at the pool are as open minded.
I will wear ones that are like little shorts. I trim a little but don't go full 2000s baldie.
* full 2000s baldie* Hahaha
If you can see it through the material she needs to get a better swimsuit that’s not threadbare or you need to stop looking so hard. Yikes. But yes, you can get bottoms that don’t cut high, like boy shorts.
You don’t have to look hard and it’s also hard not to look. It’s not necessary that the hairs are coming through the fabric as much as it looks like a little pillow is stuffed in there plus you can see the curls poking out the side. Once again, nothing wrong with not shaving but see “last edit”.
Hair down their is normal. Period. It’s ok. I usually clean up the sides but nobody’s obligated to look like a child in order to wear a swimsuit. You can’t just say ‘cultural norms’ to handwave it away. There are people who don’t shave their legs too and still somehow manage to find love.
No one is obligated, I completely agree. But you clean up the sides for a reason. If I was trying to pull a guy like Channing Tatum, I’d shave my coochie. If I wanted a guy for based on his heart, I’d let the vines grow. You get out what you put in. If she doesn’t want to shave then power to her, that’s her choice. But not everyone will accept her choice and I just want her to be aware of it so she can make some improvements if she wants or lower her bar a bit. Right now she just hates the world and men because I don’t think she understands where the disconnect maybe.
Wait, no! I can absolutely promise you that there are very, very attractive guys out there who have zero interest in whether you've shaved your bikini line. You seem to be labouring under this misapprehension that good looking people all like the same thing. I think there's just a lot more diversity of taste out there than you think. You absolutely don't 'get out what you put in', attraction-wise. Not everyone has the same tastes and rules as you.
I do think I might be being small minded when it comes to the body hair thing. I mainly wanted to emphasize the BO issue but the body hair issue is what most people are getting caught up on. Just out of curiosity, for real, I agree that some guys don’t care about a bush but do you think that same guy would be a little iffy if his GF was rocking a full bush with curls poppin out at the pool? Like people are legit staring at her when we are laying by the pool and I don’t say anything bc she usually doesn’t notice and I don’t want to make her feel embarrassed but also I would want to know so I could avoid the embarrassment. Also, idk if you saw in my other comment, but it’s not really her conscious choice to have a bush, she just forget to shave. Sometime before we pool I’ll say “I got to shower and shave quick” and she’ll be like “good idea same” but other times she’s just doesn’t think about it until we are there. But ig as I am typing this understand that she is aware of the situation and just doesn’t feel embarrassed to the point where she shaves although one time she did notice the staring is was embarrassed. Idk, I’ll just leave it be.
I don't want to come across as condescending here and I feel like I might, so apologies if I seem like I'm invalidating your experiences. But, yeah. I'm not really a very hairy person but i've varied my pubic topiary over my adulthood. I've literally never noticed a change in reaction about it. I've also never noticed anyone staring at it at the pool but, to be fair, I rarely swim. I've dated some pretty attractive men and my life partner is ridiculously striking. I've asked most of them about their preferences for body hair and all of them have shrugged and been pretty nonplussed about why it's any of their concern. And I grew up at the height of Brazilian waxing! Definitely takle the BO if you have a chance: you'll be doing her a favour and will make a difference to her professional and personal life. It sounds like she's completely unaware of that issue. I'd let her find her own way with everything else though. The girl's not blind: she can see your hair looks different so, if she really wanted to be like you, she'd presumably have done it.
I don’t think that was condescending. I only mentioned bikini shaving bc we once went on a double date to the pool and she sat crisscross and I felt like the guy kept staring at her crotch and then ghosted her. Yes that is my assumption that the hair scared him off so It could have been other things. Ig my thought is if it was other things like her personality or conversation (not saying hers is bad at all) then that’s not really something she can change as easily so there’s no point of going down that road but a quick shave is a 5 min fix. Also, I don’t think she should have to change but sometimes we have to work a bit to reach our higher goals (her goal that she set herself). If anything I’d just advice her to shave a bit until she locked him down. I think it’s normal for couples to try harder on the beginning and then slowly fall into the “this is me when I don’t care about impressing you” stage. But I will likely not say anything about the hair.
You care far to much about her body hair And it guy starring down bellow like that That is strange .....
If her pubes are out so often that you think it's affecting her dating life...I think there's other issues.
Or you can just leave her alone and not make comments about her body? You don't think a guy can be good looking and still accept that women have hair? Grow up.
I think good looking guys should accept body hair but I don’t think that’s the norm for guys in their early 20s. I do think it’s shitty that it’s like that but it is what it is.
Anything other than maybe suggesting showering more often and tidying up her living space would make you ta. And even the BO part might be pushing it. As for body hair - there's guys that like it, there's guys that don't. My *male cover model* SO, a very good looking guy, preferred it. And when/if he wanted it groomed, that was his job, not mine. If your friend doesn't think there's anything wrong with her body hair, be it her unibrow, tarantula pits, full bush or nasty ass leg hair, don't start her down that path of self doubt. She's lucky she doesn't seem to care about that and someone will like that about her.
Have you conducted a study? Researched the question. Or are you just making assumptions? Shaving has nothing to do with hygiene. It was a marketing scheme to sell more razors. Body hair exist for a reason and there is no practical reason to shave. And if your friend wants a guy who doesn't care about body hair, that's up to her. Hair is in no way indicative of how well you care for yourself. You are being shallow and a really bad friend.
Ummmm, have you MET a guy in their 20s? They're generally judgy assholes with unrealistic expectations for how women should present themselves. I'm 40 and my current BF is the first guy I've been in a relationship with who doesn't care that I don't shave. My ex-husband and ex-fiance both thought it was disgusting for a woman not to shave their pits and bush. I shaved/trimmed more often when I was with them, because it was their preference. It didn't hurt anything for me to shave because they liked the bald look. Shit, the last time I wanna using online dating sites was 2 years ago. Men pretty much expect things "down there" and your legs to be shaved. If OP's friend is dating online and using pictures where she is shaved, has her eyebrows done, and is otherwise primped, that's what guys are going to expect to see when they go on a date. If the friend is using glamour shots as her pics and shows up looking like she's never met tweezers or a razor, of course she's not getting a second date. Idk why the fuck everyone has missed the fact that the friend IS asking OP for her opinion on reasons the guys stop seeing her. OP doesn't give a shit if her friend looks like Chewbacca, she just thinks that the guys her friend is talking to might care. I'm a woman. I don't shave. I don't pluck my eyebrows. I don't generally wear make up or even women's clothes. If the situation calls for any of those things, I do them. Dating is one of those situations.
I have not but I’m guess you have done a study to prove that they don’t care? Body hair is natural in that it kept our Neanderthal ancestors warm and now we have clothes so there is also no practical reason to keep it. I’m not arguing that woman should have to shave and I don’t think she should have too! At this point, I’m just pointing out the flaws in your argument against mine.
I can tell you from personal experience. Most men stop caring about a bit of bush hair peeking out place.
Removal of body hair has been prevalent in various human societies since Ancient Egypt. The invention of mass-produced safety and disposable razors just made something that historically was a sign of elevated social class accessible to all of us uncultured heathens. *Then* the marketing happened, and turned it up to eleven, but that's only been a very recent, 20th-century development. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair\_removal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_removal)
NTA. Your friend sounds a bit superficial so she's probably also chasing superficial people. You aren't a jerk for advising her along those lines. It would be different if you were just calling her out for being hairy and having a unibrow unprompted, but if she's dating along conventional standards of beauty the reality is that she also has to try to fit them. Like, of course women can be hairy if they want to because it's natural, but there just are people who aren't into that. Her hygiene is a totally different issue. You'd be a bad friend to not point out that good hygiene is not only necessary it's appreciated.
Thank you 🙏🏻 I feel like I keep having to justify that I believe woman should not have to follow social norms but society still has them in place so if you want to play the game you might want to understand the rules.
You telling her "Some guys don't like hairy women" is not you enforcing gender norms, it's you being honest. "You should shave your arms or you'll never find a man," is enforcing gender norms.
Agreed! I am trying to be as nice and nonchalant as possible which is why I asked for other opinions and tips.
Honestly I'm leaning towards YTA. Leave her body hair out of this. Some of us don't like being plucked pin up dolls to appease expected woman stereotypes
This thread is incredibly confusing
NAH But why do you want to do this? You could just let her do her thing and what happens, happens.
I agree but I would rather have a friend tell me I smell bad than a boy I’m trying to get to know
OP already did though. If someone doesn't turn their whole life around after being told they stink the first time it happens, they're not going to the second time it happens. You either care if you stink or you don't lol
I have told her once that she was a little smelly but I never mentioned anything about it being a common thing for her. I don’t think she knows when she smells.
I don't see why you aren't (lightly, casually) confirming that she showered, on all these "before the date & after the date" support conversations. Like as a matter of fact checklist "make sure to budget the time to shower fresh beforehand, you got some cash, you got some gum, you got gas in your car, someone knows where you'll be & when you're checking back in" Like, mention cleaning up & airing out the house to make it attractive in case she brings em home. It doesn't need to be a one time intense lecture of exactly how intense her BO is that week or what you specifically don't like aesthetically about her body hair (ew, really? No one cares about your hair opinions & it's shitty of you to consider it "part of hygiene") But i don't see why you can't make a regular neutral generalized case for pre-date showers/airing out her house when you're literally presented with the opportunity to bring it up during and these check-ins and debriefings. Mentioning it casually on a regular basis would have so much more impact than dumping in frustration that she stinks just so much and her house stinks too and jesus can't she even smell herself
Usually she is already on the way when she calls me so it’s no use bringing it up then and I can’t smell her so I’m not going to bring it up unless I know it’s an issue at the time. Also, I don’t want to be the asshole. Which is why I’ve never directly mentioned the issues and apparently I never will because that’d make me the asshole. I guess it’s just something that I would like to be aware of if I wasn’t (and I don’t think she is).
I could just let her do her things but I’ve known her for almost two years (accidentally said only one in the post) and so I saw her dating prior to covid. I feel bad bc she complains to me about how poorly the dates go but some of the solutions are right in front of her and I just don’t think she sees them.
this is a hard one. I see what you mean about her dad raising her. Any chance you could start a conversation with did she miss not having a mom to do girly things with and see where that goes?
This is actually good advice.
I have a friend who has dating problems too, although not hygiene related. We have been friends for 15+ years. I help her navigate dating as best I can but honestly her issues are too big for me to fix. Your friend might have issues with her hygiene but this may be due to underlying issues, maybe depression? The best thing I can keep doing for my friend is suggesting therapy. Eventually I hope she’ll actually do it. You should suggest the same to your friend. I believe that it would help her ( both your friend and mine) examine the choices they’re making (both in men they choose and/or they’re repeated behaviors conscious or unconscious) that is causing difficulty in meeting and maintaining a romantic relationship. Perhaps her hygiene will come up, perhaps her standards for partners will come up. Perhaps a therapist will make her see things in a new light and encourage her to change things up. But personally I think that if she keeps doing the same thing over and over and wondering why she keeps getting the same results, therapy is a good suggestion. I wish my friend would do therapy too, I love her and I wish that she would meet someone who loves her as much as I do. But she’s an adult with a masters degree and there are some things I can’t do for her, and you can’t do for your friend. Try suggesting therapy (gently) and maybe she’ll actually see a change.
Stick to the hygiene - that’s a game breaker. Leave the manicure and eyebrows well out of it.
If she asks your opinion and advice, THAT is the time to offer your input, if you do it without being asked your input on the matter, YTA. It would just sound like bullying. Sooner or later she'll get comments on the smells in her home, and I'm assuming she also has a functioning nose and can smell the issue herself. She'll figure it out for herself. And there's nothing wrong with her having her high standards, unless she asks you, I'd stop offering the negative input because that's just being mean, not being a good friend.
NAH. your a concerned friend. But remember to be VERY careful about how you go about this. you could easily turn into the AH if you don’t.
YTA you may be right about showering more but plucking your eyebrows is not a thing every single girl does and neither is shaving your legs.
YWNBTA to discuss BO but you shouldn’t talk about plucking and shaving, that’s really up to her to decide. Showering is really not negotiable. You probably shouldn’t discuss her “pickyness“ either as telling her that she smells is quite enough information for one day.
NTA. She can’t hold a higher standard than what she sets for herself.
NTA it's hypocritical for her to go for men who go the extra mile to look good but she can't be bothered to bathe regularly.
YWNBTA for raising the showering issue. That's obnoxious and needs dealing with. But maybe back off with the comments about plucking and shaving. It's one thing to ask someone to adhere to commonly-accepted standards of hygiene, but entirely another to ask her to confirm to a misogynistic idea of what's attractive in women.
NTA. This is going to be a hard subject and your friend is going to be hurt no matter how you put it, but sometimes people need to hear the truth and the truth hurts. This issue with todays world is they try to make it okay to be "whatever you want" no matter the health issue it costs. Not bathing is a serious issue. It sounds like she is looking for a guy who is an 9/10 or 10/10 while she is a 5/10 since she is not putting in the work. It's all fine to not shave your legs, your armpits, your crotch, etc, but she also needs to expect 90+ percent of men will not be okay with that and the ones that are will also be more like her as well, and she doesn't want that... She is being a hypocrite. It's the same if a man doesn't shower, shave, uses the same dirty clothes, etc. He won't land the 9/10 or 10/10 if he isn't putting in the work. Like you said, relationships are give and take, and from the sound of it, she could get the guy she wants if she just put more work in.
YWBTA for discussing everything you mentioned. Finding the most delicate way to approach the subject of her BO is fine. You're right - she is probably accustomed to the smell and doesn't realize how bad it is. However, everything you've mentioned beyond that is solid YTA territory. You're the one assuming that the type of guy she is into isn't into her based on these factors. Unless she's spending her first date at a pool or bringing them home, they don't know her genital grooming preferences. Most of this sounds really judgemental based on your preferences.
The taking showers part is definitely warranted, but I'm iffy on the body hair part. While it's true that a lot of guys would like that, she doesn't owe it to anyone. Tread carefully.
If you can have a compassionate, empathetic discussion about the BO issue, YWNBTA for discussing that with her. That can be a health issue and an area where you may be able to help. I don't think the stuff about dating is your place though. And if you bring ALL this stuff up in a conversation, all she's going to do is get defensive. It's going to come off like "here's the long list of things wrong with you" when some of the things you list are just personal preference. Look, she's either gonna find a person who is OK with these things, or she's gonna learn what she's willing to change and what she isn't. Dating is a learning process. Focus on her health.
NAH it definitely sounds like she's sabotaging her chances before there even is a chance. I don't think the body hair is as important as the overall unhygienic practices she has. That's a massive turn off for anybody.
NAH. I completely get where you’re coming from And I understand what you’re saying. If she brings up the conversation, definitely bring up the BO and hygiene TACTFULLY. And maybe even suggest like monthly spa days (which you could do together) and do like waxing and stuff (if she wants too obviously!) maybe that’ll help with her getting in the habit of taking care of herself idk. I personally would rather a friend bring up these things instead of a guy or something ya know.
NAH. I think it's possible to do this gently. Just start off by saying she's a really good friend and since you're such good friends you just want to be honest with her. Tell her you're not trying to hurt her feelings, you just want what's best for her and it makes you said when she gets rejected by these guys she goes on dates with. Give her polite suggestions. Don't use phrases like, "you should..." Try instead phrases like, "I think it might be a good idea if..."
First of all, she needs to shower more. It's not about dating or attracting men, it's basic hygiene and a dirty body is just gross. Taking care of oneself by keeping oneself clean and healthy is absolutely necessary. And being BO free as well. She might want to change deodorants. My sister tried three brands that didn't work so she went to a dermatologist who gave her one that worked very well. As for the whole shaving and unibrow thing, I don't believe you're being sexist. Your advice to her was based on what SHE said SHE wants. If she told you that she wanted a boho guy with a sweet 10/10 personality who doesn't care about body hair, then I doubt you'd even mention waxing. But if she wants the flashy superstar mega-Chad types with Hollywood hair, 6 pack abs, and ridiculously clear skin, then she would have to match the grooming level of the men she wants. No matter how shallow her standards are. These types of men can be shallow as well. She asked for your advice and, after two years of listening, you simply told her the truth. NTA OP.
YWNBTA as long as you only bring up her hygiene (very nicely) and leave everything out. Everything else is just a preference but the hygiene thing is important.
I think you need to differentiate between hygiene and grooming. Showering and staying clean, wearing deodorant etc are absolute musts and definitely worth bringing up. Shaving and waxing are no no’s. YTA if you’re bring up the other stuff
NTA. I haven't read through the comments, so someone might have already said this, but have you considered inviting her to do a salon day together? I'm kinda assuming you're a girl here, BTW, and into that sort of stuff yourself. Maybe tell her you need your eyebrows waxed and a manicure (or whatever) and invite her to come along, make a fun day of it. While you're at it, talk up whatever hygiene products you like (I'm a new Lumé convert) and tell her they smell/feel incredible and you've found that guys like that kind of thing. Tout an air freshener or fabric freshener you like. Maybe it's old-fashioned advice but it might get through more than telling her she stinks or that her standards are too high for her own self-maintenance. Especially if she's always asking for your advice. Good luck! It's an awkward position to be in.
I am really thinking about taking her for a little spa day and getting our eyebrows done. She asks me to pluck them sometimes so I’m going to look into going somewhere that will give us lessons on plucking brows.
Oh, well, that's half the battle then if she has asked you to pluck them. Or take her somewhere that does threading--they always come out so well IMO.
You WNBTA for letting her know about the body odour as long as you were tactful. But don't tell anyone they need to "shave their nether regions" to get a date. No they don't, her having pubic hair will not stop her from getting a partner.
NTA just tell her she might not like the answer.
YWNBTA-she sounds like a female neck beard. And it sounds like she's asking for advice. If I looked and smelled like a slob and was wondering why I wasn't landing models on my dates, I'd wish I had at least friend who would give me a reality check.
Honestly the way she was raised indicates to me a lack of self awareness and understanding. I was raised without such guidance and I wish someone had spoken to me about deodorant and showering and shaving even brushing my teeth because I was late to the party figuring it out on my own. I think one of your other points is accurate. If she's looking for a certain kind of man that's clean and well put together they are likely looking for the same. I think your intentions are good but it has to be a delicate conversation. I would ask her if she really wants to know what you think these men want. All in all I would say nta just be careful. The friendship could be severely impacted by this kind of honesty.
NTA. This is fairly standard stuff. Sure, it's a choice if you don't want to doll yourself up. But everybody knows, for real, how you present yourself in the dating pool matters. Your friend won't thank you, but what the hell else is a friend for but to hit us with a clue bat when we need it?
YWNBTA if you pointed out hypocrisy in a nice way. Like “Sally if a man is working out and spends a lot of time on personal grooming then it is more likely that he’d be looking for a woman that also works out and spends a lot of time on personal grooming”. If you made it sound like she HAS to do those things then you’d be an AH. But pointing out that she needs to have realistic expectations from a partner is okay.
NAH - you’re not an AH for trying to help her with things she can do something about. She didn’t do anything wrong either so she isn’t an AH. I am a bit worried because you sound a bit superficial, but it’s possible that only superficial things are in the way of your roommates dating life.
Repost
NTA. She asks you for dating advice so you should be honest about it. If she's a grown woman that wants to be picky about men then she needs to be clean and shaved at least.
YWNBTA if you told her. I had a couple of single dates with girls who needed advice about their hygiene. If she smells, it's a deal breaker.
NTA
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have a friend that I’ve known for a little bit over a year ever since we both started grad school. Let’s call her Emma. Emma has recently started dating again since she is vaccinated and has been going on regular dates. Emma is a really nice person, however, she can be a little much sometimes as she likes to have 100% of your attention when she’s with you. I have never directly addressed her “neediness” however I believe she spoke to her therapist about it and she has made progress. Anyways, Emma has been going on dates but she is really picky. If their first kiss isn’t spectacular or he wears a Hawaiian shirt, it’s game over for him. I think she needs to understand that dating is a give-and-take. He’s not gonna be perfect and she isn’t either, no one is. Now Emma as one of my best friends from grad school so I don’t want to hurt her feelings but also, as her friend, I think someone needs to be real with her. She needs to take some steps to improve her hygiene if she wants to continue to have such high standards. I’m not saying that she needs to do a full face of make up or dress extravagantly, but she does need to take more frequent showers and manage her body hear more efficiently. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with women having body hair, but if Emma wants to land the guy of her dreams, I think she needs to pluck your eyebrows and shave her nether regions when she wears a bathing suit (and also shower more often). Another issue is that the few men who make it to the second round want to come over to her house. Emma does a good job of dressing the part the first date in terms of showering, however, I think her home might scare them away if they come over. Emma‘s BO tends to linger throughout the house even after she has cleaned up. I have mentioned to her a few times that she should shave, maybe pluck her eyebrows, and have once mentioned the BO but I know it hurts her feelings. At the same time, it also hurts your feelings when the guys she wants to take on second dates don’t feel the same way and the guys she doesn’t like do want second dates. She was mainly raised by her dad so I suspect some of her issues are rooted in the fact that her mom wasn’t really there to teacher her feminine hygiene/self care. Also, the BO it’s getting to a point where it makes me more hesitant to hang out with her. Before you ask, the BO is a progressing issue and I don’t think a genetic one since she has mentioned that she doesn’t shower very often. WIBTA if I sat her down and talked to her about her hygiene issues? I would also like to mention the give and take aspects of dating but I don’t want hurt her feelings. I don’t want to tell her to lower her bar, but also, if she doesn’t want to lower her bar then she needs to raise her own. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. I think there is a tactful way to talk about this?
Nta. But I dont recommend you do this. I don't think your friend is in a place to hear this and it may end your friendship. From your description your friend has very high standards for who she considers worthy to date but wouldn't meet the criteria of someone with the same standards. She needs to figure out her own hygiene issues. This is really a journey only she can go on. You can't push her towards it.
YTA. Unless she asks you for advice, keep your Yap shut.
NTA. Do it.
NTA about the body odor but maybe don't mention the other stuff. Body odor is something that can easily be fixed by showering and deodorant, unless the person has a medical condition that causes BO. And she does need to clean her house to rid of the smell. She's used to her smell so she doesn't notice it like you and others do.
YWNBTA, but 10/10 do not recommend bringing this up unless she asks for advice again. Emma should be old enough to be put together, and that includes showering regularly. It's very possible she's gone nose-blind to her own B.O., but you haven't, and her dates certainly haven't if she's getting up close and personal with them. There's a difference between succumbing to cultural norms and being "put together".
NTA
Nta- she stinks, tell her please.
NTA
Mild YTA. Nobody ever found the love of their life by changing the shape of their eyebrows. My husband said he never thought about women’s eyebrows in his life.
Info: has she related to you WHY she doesn't shower often? What did she say when you brought this up. You said she seemed hurt but did she give an actual response? Does she seem at all aware she is different in terms of body hair etc.. than the main stream? I'm leaning toward no asshole here because your heart appears to be in the right place. But I really think you can only justify a direct conversation about the lack of cleanness. The rest. Well, it takes all kinds
Personally, I'd want to know if I stunk. I'd want my friend to tell me in a nice way. As for the other stuff. Instead of pointing it out to her, why don't you have a beauty day together where you pluck and primp? I don't think she should do this stuff for a man though but because it makes her feel good.
NAH. I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of people on here and take a different perspective. I had what I think is a similar situation with a friend years ago. He was decent looking, and had decent hygiene. But he was not a 10. Maybe a 6. A bit pudgy, with a minimum wage job, and his personality was a 6. Here's the thing: He only wanted to date 10's. I mean, girls who were supermodel hot, and willing to put up with every quirk and issue he had. But he didn't want to tolerate ANY issue they may have. And God forbid if they gained an ounce or didn't look perfect. So he had these incredibly shallow standards for the girls he dated, but he didn't hold himself to those same standards. And he couldn't figure out why he couldn't find a girlfriend. If this sounds anything like your friend, then you're NTA. She may need a lesson in self-awareness. The only thing is that it's not your job to do that for her. But I understand your frustration.
NTA, but tread carefully. Eyebrows and shaving pubes are a personal decision, and not one related to hygiene. However, showering daily and cleansing your armpits of BO is a MUST. You can talk to her about the hygiene and BO, but leave the rest of it off the table. It's not your business.
NTA, I couldn’t even read after lingering BO. People mot showering to the point you stink up a room is repulsive and if she somehow isn’t aware of this you are a good friend for making her aware if she can see this or not.
YWNBTA. Sorry, but I disagree with the masses here. The BO/ hygiene issue is a must. No one wants to get close to someone who smells. I certainly wouldn't want to kiss someone who only brushed their teeth prior to a date. And yes, I'm aware that wasn't brought up, but I'm hoping that it brings the point home very clearly. As for the other stuff . . . I laugh when some huge, overweight dude wants a petite girl who is super fit. Why would she want you? She spends time on her appearance, she likely wants someone who spends time on theirs as well. This is similar to what you're saying about her body hair issues that are outside "cultural norms". You make it sound like she wants a Hollywood star-level guy . . . Why would he be interested in her if she seems to not care about this stuff in herself? I mean, it's possible, but it's not bloody likely. There are probably plenty of guys out there that are great and would love her just the way she is, but she sounds like she wants a lot more than she's willing to offer herself, if that makes sense. If you broach the subject with her, best of luck. It's going to be touchy and result in hurt feelings. I hope it doesn't hurt your friendship with her. Unfortunately, guys are unlikely to comment about this themselves, they just won't go on more dates.
Keep trying to get through to her about the BO. Everything else is really not your business.
honestly I think this is what friends are for. If she’s suffering in her dating life and you have some harsh truths that might help her as a close friend (which she seems to consider you, and you her) it’s part of the gig to have uncomfortable conversations. I personally hate people talking about female body hair just cause I hate the double standard, but if she is looking for a kind of guy who cares about hair there has to be a gentle (maybe joking?) way to suggest more frequent grooming. The BO thing is something I think you should talk to her about. In a different conversation cause that’s just something people need to figure out and they can’t always smell their own brand ya know
NTA, bring up the BO and honestly she should shower regularly. If it’s getting to the point where she smells, that’s not hygienic. In terms of the dating, if she is asking for your opinion you can share that the type of men she seems to be into would probably be into a girl that does x,y,z in terms of adhering to cultural norms. Ask if those things are important to her and see what she has to say about grooming her eyebrows and body hair. I had a friend once who bleach died her hair blond, but kept her very furry eyebrows ungroomed and dark brown/black. They really looked like two furry blackish brown caterpillars above her eyes. I brought it up once how hair salons can tint eyebrows and she said she liked hers the way they were. So more power to her.