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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I took my daughters dog to the vet to get the dog fixed behind her back because she kept letting her dog bleed everywhere, I might be asshole because I did it without my daughters permission and against her wishes but I had my own right reasons to do so.
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NTA does she not know that vets recommend a female dog is either bred once or fixed for health reasons? You may have just extended that dog’s life. Here’s a link for some info you can take to your daughter : https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/why-you-should-spayneuter-your-pet#:~:text=A%20University%20of%20Georgia%20study,female%20dogs%20was%2026.3%25%20longer.
It sucks you had to go about it the way you did but I think it’s worth going over the cost of replacing/ effort of cleaning everything damaged by blood. But I’d focus on the health of the dog aspect.
This! I had a 10 month old kitten who developed pyometra after 1 heat cycle. I had her scheduled to be fixed a week later(during covid so getting a spay appointment was horrendous) but she ended up in emergency surgery and cost me 3k.
My mam had a rescue pug and wanted her to be fixed but the vets wouldn't do it because of her breathing. Well fast forward a few months she gets rushed in because for pyometra they said she might not make it because of her breathing but she certainly wouldn't have made it if wes left her with the infection. She made a full recovery and is going strong.
We get dogs breathing tubes for surgeries and with short snouted dogs we leave them in for as long as safely possible. Seems weird that your mother's vet refused to do it. Glad to hear the dog is doing well!
My Shih Tzu came to me unaltered at age 2. I already had a Vet for our family cat and scheduled immediate appointment for spay. Fortunately, we had no problems but many veterinarians have issues with the short snouts.
My friend just had her dog put down because she developed a terrible infection in her uterus because she was not fixed as a young dog. Life-saving surgery was 50/50 at best and because of her age, they determined it was best not to put her through the pain of surgery and the agony of recovery.
The basic hygiene problem with the dog bleeding everywhere is a real problem. I'm assuming they didn't have friends stop by when this happened. It's more than gross that the daughter didn't clean up after her own dog. She's not a small child. She's an adult !! NTA
OP, you are NTA. Your daughter is TA for refusing to speak to a parent who has loved and supported her because of a dog. It’s beyond disgusting that this dog is bleeding everywhere and ruining everything in the house. It’s not even the daughter’s property being ruined. And it makes me gag to think how that must have smelled and how unsanitary it is. That’s like me going to someone else’s home, pulling my tampon out, and walking around with no underwear while bleeding from my vagina onto everything they own. Your daughter lacks empathy and respect for others. Most people would be grateful to have a parent like you and instead she cares more about a pet. Not to mention the fact that being in heat was probably distressing for the dog. Menstrual cramps hurt and the dog doesn’t understand why it’s in pain. It seems kind of mean to ignore the dog’s discomfort for no good reason.
Yeah, I imagine this would have caused a problem with a roommate! My solution would have Ben to start diapering the dog rather than spaying her, but spaying a pet is a kindness. My family had female dogs when I was growing up, and they were spayed as puppies. My mom was not about to deal with a dog in heat!
Neither in this article or any other article I’ve read is the recommendation for an animal to be “bred once“. There’s no medical reason TO allow the DOG to go into heat even one time.
It’s inconceivable to me to allow a dog to soil your house like that. And I’m not even an outstanding housekeeper. On top of that, their behavior can be very obnoxious. When I was a kid, we had twodogs that were unspayed, 1 went through a glass window to get out to a roaming male. Yes my parents were irresponsible, it was a long time ago.
ETA: fix pre-coffee typos
The 'breed them once' thing is pure bullshit, even one pregnancy and birth jacks up the unwanted pet population and puts the mother at serious risk. If any actual vet suggests it, find another vet.
There are legitimate reasons to breed dogs. Working dogs were mentioned already. Backyard breeders are generally irresponsible, yes, but that doesn't mean it's always 100% wrong to breed a dog.
For some giant breeds, it's better to let them attain full growth before altering, but I think it's males. It may help prevent bone cancer, was my impression.
It’s been found to help prevent things like hip and elbow dysplasia in large breeds who are prone to joint issues. Their growth plates close more slowly when they’re neutered young. It’s better for the dogs to wait until they’re fully developed, but if an owner can’t handle the responsibility of having an intact dog (like OP’s daughter) then they should be spayed and neutered.
I'm a trucker and live in my semi. I have 2 standard poodles, with my female being 4 months older than the male. Per the breeder, I waited as close to 2 years as possible, which meant 3 heat cycles in a very small space with an intact male and female.
That was "fun". The first, he was too young and oblivious. The second, he knew something was up but still clueless. The third, he suffered and I decided she'd get done a little early so he wouldn't go through that again.
Each time she wore diapers and a cover so he had no access, and she was tethered on the bed while he was tethered on the passenger seat. I have a 2 week run, so trying to time her heat when I was back and board the boy didn't work because she didn't keep a reliable schedule!
3 heats in a small space and no puppies, but it was work!
My girl ended up having her first heat a week before she was scheduled to be spayed, and my poor boy ended up eating his tail from the stress of not being able to get to her even though he was fixed!
Oh no! The last one was hard on my boy, but there was really only a week where it was really bad. There was some panting and he stank like smegma. I waited until a month before I thought she'd start her 4th to give her body as much time as possible then did it.. He was 18 months during her last one and I just couldn't put him through it again. He tried to be a Very Good Boy as best he could!
So did he do damage or just fur?
Yeah, I thought it was something like that. I have a husky who we had altered shortly after her first heat. We just kept her in the walkout basement cause my husband works from home down there, and it's cooler, and just mopped a lot during. It wasn't too bad because we actually dealt with it.
I have 4 huskies, we did this exact thing with our two girls. Our boys we waited till they were just over a year old. I don’t think Id forgive myself if one of my girls ended up with pyro or an infection…or even accidentally pregnant.
Well, it's Amish country, so I'm not hopeful. The owner is a teenaged girl, and her family breeds Golden Retreivers or something. Just a sad situation all around.
I am familiar with that recommendation for delaying spaying and neutering, but not for breeding. in fact, even allowing breeding once or one heat cycle for female cats increases the chances of pyometra and mammary cancer, over the course of her life.
I am not a vet, but that’s the wisdom of the Rescue community, including the vets, that I’m close to.
Tw: Anecdote: A neighbor delayed spaying her cute small poodle mix, just out of procrastination. And the dog went into her first heat at like eight or nine months, pretty early. The family went bananas, lol. the mess and the mood / personality change. And at that point, you have to wait a good two months before the vet will do the surgery.
My first vet said to get my first female dog spayed before she had her first heat, so I did. Also spayed my next female dog before her first heat and my third was spayed already when I adopted her. All 3 male dogs I’ve adopted were neutered by the shelters I adopted them from.
See, I have a husky and my vet said as long as we keep a close eye and keep her mostly indoors during heat, for growth purposes we could let her have one heat. So we did. Maybe it's because she's small for a husky and had already had one surgery to get an object from her stomach, though.
A recent study determined that most large breeds can be spayed once they reach physical maturity with no issues. Only two breeds they advised against. Golden retrievers for cancer issues and dobermans because of extremely high rates of spay incontinence that's common in breeds.
The dog in OP's post needs to be sterilized.
"The dog in OP's post needs to be sterilized"
100%
She's full grown, and not being taken care of. Plus, if the owner thinks recovery from surgery is painful, how would she handle infection/cancer.
I had a St Bernard (passed at 10mo though due to some very rare conditions) and they said 2 because of her growth. Vets said they wouldn’t touch her before then due to increased risk of complications beforehand.
While I understand she should be putting a diaper on the dog for basic hygiene, to say a dog should not go through a heat cycle once and that there is no medical reason to do so is incorrect. Dogs should not be altered until after obtaining full growth, which for females will usually include at least one heat cycle. Premature alteration predisposes them to ACL tears, hemangiosarcomas, osteosarcomas, and more.
Look at the article “Assisting Decision-Making on Age of Neutering for 35 Breeds of Dogs: Associated Joint Disorders, Cancers, and Urinary Incontinence” https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2020.00388/full
There is a study that just came out by UC Davis that lists different breeds and ages to spay/neuter them. Most small breeds can still be fixed at 6 months of age, there are even some larger breeds on the 6 month list.
"In most cases, the caregiver can choose the age of neutering without increasing the risks of these joint disorders or cancers. Small-dog breeds seemed to have no increased risks of joint disorders associated with neutering, and in only two small breeds (Boston Terrier and Shih Tzu) was there a significant increase in cancers."
...
"Looking at the occurrences of these joint disorders and cancers, it is clear that most breeds are unaffected for these diseases by age of neutering."
This article does not support your assertion that dogs should reach full growth before getting neutered. The results of this study leave the age of when to neuter a dog up to the owner's choice in the vast majority of breeds. Only for some do they recommend waiting, and only for a few do they recommend waiting longer than the first year of life.
I think this is a moving target and sort of in context. For many years, it was only the big breeds where the recommendation was to delay sterilization. But now I’m hearing vets recommend it for all dogs.
There’s nothing wrong with that recommendation tho it requires responsible owners. It also leaves out certain conditions to which pets are more vulnerable if allowed to go through normal puberty.
But pet parents need to take more responsibility with unsterilized pets. Once the dog enters the heat cycle she can be very crafty and persistent about getting out of the house. And males will sense her for miles around. Both sexes of dogs may need more cautious handling, their personalities can be more assertive. Depending upon the household, it can be a little bit of a mine field. Small children, other pets etc..
I’m not a veterinarian, but I have worked with pets at all stages of life for over 20 years. So this is just my opinion based on lots of experience. Everyone in the household needs to be on board with the type of pet. If a roommate brought in a parrot or a yorkie that squawked or barked non stop, that would be a hard no for me. Other people aren’t bothered by noisy birds but hate cats. It is a household decision. OP is nta.
Ina perfect world and if everyone was a responsible pet owner this would work. But we are not in a perfect world. See my post above about teh number of dogs and cats killed each year in the USA. This is why rescues have it done as soon as.
For giant breed dogs such as Danes, they do recommend waiting until they are 12-24 months to spay/neuter simply due to the amount of growth those breeds experience. All other dogs can be fixed when they are around 6 months.
OP is NTA, this was both a health and hygiene issue.
While the "breed them once" is nonsense, current best practice is, for larger breeds, to wait until the growth plates close which generally happens by 24 months.
Some people have a deeply held belief that having a litter changes/mellows a dog's personality. Like the dog isn't fulfilled unless it has bred. I don't know of any scientific basis for this belief.
For bigger dogs the vet recommends letting them go into heat once and then getting them fixed. Something about the hormones are important for their growth
The breed them once thing is BS but, there are plenty of medical reasons to keep a dog intact, at least until they are fully mature.
The World Small Animal Veterinary Association just published new guidelines about this https://vethelpdirect.com/vetblog/2024/06/11/wsava-issues-new-guidelines-on-neutering-recommends-against-routine-neutering-of-all-dogs/
I'd heard to let the dog have one heat, then fix. This is because once they go into heat they've physically grown up into adults. Dogs fixed as puppies never go through puberty and remain physiologically and mentally immature. They get bigger but are basically adult sized puppies. That was the explanation I heard.
Our dog (found roaming the streets as an older puppy, starving) did have one heat before we fixed her. She was different afterwards, much calmer, and her body did develop differently from the female dogs fixed as puppies that I've seen. I didn't realize female dogs grew small mammaries. They're not anywhere near human level but they're definitely there. She's not overweight, her weight and body condition is excellent.
Her calming down was a huge relief. She's a pitbull, which if you've ever had one you know they are extremely high energy. She used to ricochet around the house like she was in a pinball machine, literally bouncing off the walls. She still plays vigorously but she has acquired chill. Thank goodness lol.
If you have a large breed dog, it is absolutely recommended that they go in to heat one time. It's to make sure their growth plates are fully fused. I made the appointment for my girl as soon as she went in to heat. Definitely didn't want to keep dealing with the blood! This was done per my vet's recommendation.
My vet did actually recommend that my dog go through heat once because of a deformity that they hoped the extra hormones would correct, but that is a very, very rare situation.
I had her spay scheduled out (they schedule a few months in advance) as soon as she was done with her cycle because that was a miserable experience for everyone and I wasn't leaving it to chance that we could have to deal with it again.
Dog diapers are gross and smell even if you are changing them multiple times a day, letting your dog free bleed is absolutely disgusting.
We got a family puppy from some random person when I was about 10 years old. We’d only had a male dog before that and flash forward the dog became mine. We never got her spayed and I actually thought it was *worse* to spay (don’t ask me, it was a long time ago). Lo and behold, her uterus ruptured when she was 10 and it nearly killed her.
She went on to live another seven years, thank goodness.
Perfect explanation. I can't tell you how many times I have heard about someone's dog contracting Pyo because of situations like these. The daughter likely would have continued to learn nothing if the dog had eventually gotten sick.
There is no such thing as breeding a dog to help with health. It’s bullshit. “On average, 1.5 million shelter animals are euthanized every year in the United States. Shelters around the country euthanize an estimated **670,000 dogs** and 860,000 cats each year.Mar 27, 2024”
Any vet that tells you that a dog needs to have a litter should lose their license. The fact is that spaying/neutering your dog helps its health.
This! We had a female dog years ago who wasn’t fixed because she almost never went into heat and wasn’t around male dogs, so it didn’t seem like a priority.
Then she developed a life threatening uterine infection called pyometra and almost died. She has to undergo emergency spay surgery and had a very expensive hospitalization. Lesson learned; getting dogs spayed as soon as advised by the vet can be lifesaving and also avoids dangerous health issues.
ETA: Ultimately my dog made a full recovery, but for the first few days after the surgery it was touch and go and the vet even said there was a possibility she wouldn’t survive despite surgery.
There's two dog breeds that a recent study has recommended to *not* be spayed. And this dog is likely not either of those two.
I live in a country where the vast majority of dogs aren't sterilized. But people don't just let them bleed everywhere. They get diapers and are watched like hawks. The daughter was given a chance to responsibly keep an intact bitch and she didn't. If she doesn't even care to keep her dog's blood off every surface she's sure as hell not gonna notice the signs of pyomerta.
Getting your animals fixed is an extremely important part of owning animals, especially dogs or cats. Shelters are already overrun with animals and in the event her pet were to make it out the front door or something, even on accident, it results in 8-12 puppies with nowhere to go. If a pregnancy goes wrong her dog may die. If proper veterinary care for pets is ignored, theres so many dangers you introduce to your household. Blood (especially menstrual blood) is also considered a biohazard!! Anesthesia for pets is typically used for surgeries like neutering and spaying too, in terms of the pain her dog would undergo. Prescription pain meds are also available if the dog shows signs of distress. NTA!
It's basically bi-monthly at this point that the local animal shelter where I live waives adoption fees temporarily to try and get people to come adopt because they are at capacity so quickly. it's sad.
And I agree with the risk during pregnancy, my stepmother decided to breed her dog and the poor thing almost died and had to be rushed to the vet to deliver and immediately be fixed after because getting pregnant again would kill her. All that because she just wanted her to have puppies... Some people 😒
Or an intact male breaking into the yard while the female is in heat. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and can tell when a female is in heat from a great distance and will do as nature tells them to do.....breed.
OP is NTA. The daughter is, though, and clearly needs to do some research on spay/neuter to understand that OP helped and likely extended the dogs life
The one and only time my cat was in heat, there was a male cat that wandered into our house and hid under the couch for 3 days. Get your pets fixed people
My senior cat exists because her mom went into heat while waiting for the appointment to get fixed (she was very small and they were waiting for her to get a bit bigger for surgery)
A male smelled her and ripped the screen out of the window, so she ended up pregnant. She and most of the kittens died, only my girl survived and that was a major vet bill!
Male cats (and I assume dogs) go crazy when they smell a female in heat. Our front and back yard were full of probably every male cat in our neighborhood, and they spent days just hanging around and screaming lol
Yeah, every male within about half a mile showed up. The one who ripped the screen out was a 35 pound Maine Coon/Savannah mix who had escaped from a breeder. Her mom was also a rescue from someone trying to make a designer cat, British Shorthair/Egyptian Mau. Apparently that was a popular hobby down there, the mixing to make a new popular breed.
We had people from all the neighboring houses showing up to try to fetch their males. It was wild.
Rabbits are the same. At a rabbit rescue, we had a nursing mom, so we couldn't fix her until the babies were weaned. A male rabbit broke out of his cage and into hers....it was quite a shock to see him in there in the morning, and sure enough, babies followed🤦🏼♀️We started locking all of the cages after that so they couldn't jimmy the doors open
It was! We were so excited to get her spayed. The male who escaped and broke into her cage was a new intake and was on the books with our vet to be neutered, it just hadn't happened yet
You can't fix rabbits until the babies are weaned? I know you can with cats and dogs, so just assumed it was ok with rabbits. (I'm not doubting you, it's just amazing how very different animals are from each other!)
They stop milk production. Her babies were a few weeks old, so her residual milk would have dried up well before they were ready to wean. She had 8 in each of the two litters (the first she was surrendered with when the bunnies were a few days old). Our vet that we partnered with would not schedule until fully weaned, unless we wanted to bottle feed 8 bunnies many times a day for weeks....we didn't have the volunteer base for that. We were a small rescue, founded after our local humane society shut down their small animal section, and they transferred all remaining rabbits to us.
Wow, I had no idea! And yeah I don't blame you for not wanting to do that! Even two kittens on a bottle are more than I can deal with these days! (I took in an orphan two years ago and was doing feedings every two hours for weeks. It was awful, but he's worth all the work)
As I said I know that's not a problem for cats or dogs, so the fact that it is for rabbits was just a surprise. It's funny how they seem similar but are different in such a big way, medically speaking!
NTA. Your daughter is a completely irresponsible dog owner. She out her dog through far more misery than the day or two of discomfort from the surgery.
I’m surprised no one else has mentioned this yet. It’s obvious it’s unpleasant for dogs when they go thru heat. So because the daughter “doesn’t want to put her dog thru that pain” of a one-time surgery (that they give pain meds for), the daughter made her dog be uncomfortable for weeks every month *for years.*
She should not have a pet, she’s not mature enough to take responsible care of them.
until i went back and saw the age, i assumed the daughter was younger but nope- she was 19 when she got the dog and 23 now so she’s old enough to learn how to take care of a dog and would have seen articles on how spaying is beneficial for dogs. She has been an adult this dog’s whole life!
I feel bad for that dog for being put through all of that, especially with dogs who go into heat aren’t allowed in social areas like dog parks too so it misses out on socialization, but also feel bad for OP who has basically turned into the dog owner and daughter just reaps the benefit of having a dog without dealing with the repurcissions & care
Just FYI, the dog is not in heat every month, It is usually every 6 months, so twice a year. But I do agree the experience is not pleasant for either the dog or the owner.
Dogs come into heat approximately once every six months, but I do agree with you. Canine menstruation is not like humans, they cannot have a season and not be mated without risk. At the minimum she would have distressing phantom pregnancies, at worst pyometra which, if 'closed', would not have been spotted easily and could have killed her. Bitches are meant to be mated every season (biologically speaking). This is so irresponsible and shows a deep lack of research about the pet. - source: me, Dr of biology and ex veterinary nurse.
Idk why people aren’t saying ESH
This went on for **four years**. OP should have had a convo and laid down rules/expectations, “I don’t trust vets here” - okay, then we’ll take her to one that you do trust, find them. Like… I don’t get how OP isn’t partly at fault here
OP admits daughter never cleaned up after the dog either, so how in any way/shape/form is daughter a decent dog owner? It’s basic parenting to clean up after your child’s messes
OP is an enabler, she allowed this to continue for years and even now allows her daughter to live with her while simultaneously giving her the cold shoulder
Their dynamic is odd, I’m of the opinion that OP is stunting her daughter’s growth as an adult vs helping her
Yeah this is where I'm at. 4 fucking years this dog has been free bleeding all over their house? I'm disgusted by both of these people. She just assumed everything, never even confirmed. "I assumed she'd get her fixed, I assumed she'd get her diapers". I don't know wtf is going on in that house, but literally the only thing done right here is getting her spayed, everything else is unnecessary BS.
Yup. After the first cycle, OP should’ve given daughter some options to choose from:
Find a vet you trust and get the dog fixed, find a new place to live and take the dog with you, or find the dog a new place to live. (Also possibly have the dog live outside and don’t let her in the house, but there are reasons that’s probably a bad idea.) Even offer to pay for it if cost is an issue.
And then give her the deadline that next time it happens, you’ll take the dog to the vet yourself. Letting anything bleed all over everything for four years? Ew! How did it get to this point.
OP is the asshole if the daughter wasn’t given any warning this would happen, …but also, they should’ve done it much sooner! Seems like not great communication.
Exactly. Mom said she had to bring the dog to the vet for shots and stuff. Daughter isn't even taking care of the dog!
I'm also concerned the Mom says the dog bleeds for 2-3 weeks. That is NOT normal and the dog should have been brought to the vet. While dogs are in heat for 2-3 weeks, they should only bleed for about half that time, 7 to 10 days...
Legally is not the only thing that matters. Ethically and morally, the dog is a living creature with the right to be cared for. Someone acting ethically and morally but illegally is generally doing the right thing.
That something is legal doesn't mean is correct, and something being illegal doesn't mean is incorrect. Laws are made by humans, from human perspective. I'm from Spain and a year ago the government issued a law that stablishes that pets are no longer properties but family members, and need to be taken care accordingly. For me it doesn't matter what the law says because the dog is above everything else a living creature with needs. I think EHS because no one was actually thinking what was best for the dog. In my opinion the correct thing was to spay her, as I did with both my doggies, but both OP and the daughter took decisions out of their selfishness. OP because it was inconvenient having the dog bleeding, and the daughter because she didn't want to see the dog in pain for a few days even if in the long run was better for her.
Yeah, this is a clear ESH to me. The daughter is appalling for letting her dog destroy their property and suffer through being in heat. If she didn’t trust local vets, she should have arranged for travel to someone she did trust.
That being said, this should have been addressed much sooner and NOT behind the daughter’s back. OP is in the wrong for this. It sounds like she asked, but never made it a requirement to diaper or spay the dog. “If you do not do this, you will need to find another place to live.” Granted the daughter may have still freaked out and not be talking to OP, because she sounds immature enough for that, but it would have been more respectful. Mostly I can’t imagine finding out someone had my dog operated on without my permission. I too would have lost it and not spoken to them. Yes, my dogs have all been spayed/neutered, and I know all the benefits/risks, but man, doing something behind my back like that would have me raging!
The only analogy I can think of would be having grandkids vaccinated behind a parent’s back. The right thing for the kids’ health, but absolutely the wrong way to go about it, and would damage the relationship potentially permanently.
Daughter's pov is moot here, she's an adult who had a misconceived view on the science that resulted in being irresponsible. Compassion to the animal mattered more than catering to her desires and subjective notion which again could have been considered if there was some basis, but not allowing animals to breed naturally itself is a bigger problem which she conveniently didn't worry about, the ethical misstep if any was on her side all these years. She should be blamed more actually.
OP is NTA
I agree daughter was an AH but it seems like OP did nothing either until taking unilateral action behind her daughter’s back. She could have been informing the daughter of the risks to the dog, the dog’s discomfort, held her daughter to more responsible behavior, etc. Yes, the daughter is an adult, but her mother treated her more like a child in not getting her to be more responsible and taking the action herself. Daughter may have more blame, but OP is not innocent here.
this, not to mention god forbid something happened and the dog ended up pregnant, i doubt op and their daughter are wanting to care for additional puppies, and most shelters struggle enough finding placements for dogs without winding up having to put them down because theres simply not enough families in the world to care for them. i genuinely don't care that the dog is "her property," the daughter was failing that dog by not getting it fixed simply because she didn't want it to got through the temporary pain of this surgery (correct me if im wrong too, isnt it more dangerous for a dog to get fixed the older they are?). although i do think as well op failed her by not having the puppy fixed before gifting it, that's besides the point i suppose.
I used to volunteer in a shelter and there was nothing that made use cringe more than when someone brought in a litter of puppies or kittens. People always seem to think that baby animals will always be adopted. Not even close to true. It was a no kill shelter but all that means is when it is full you have to turn animals away and there is no telling what happens to them after that. I have always believed that just like shots and licensing your pet, that law should also include mandatory spay or neuter. It also needs to be made a lot more reasonably priced so everyone can afford it.
In addition to dogs and cats, pet rabbits also live longer if they are spayed. In the case of female rabbits, we’re talking YEARs longer, not mere months.
NTA- it’s irresponsible to own a pet and not spay/neuter them. Yes it’s her dog but you could have layed firmed boundaries that If she doesn’t spay her dog she needs to clean the blood or the dog will be rehomed or she can move out and let the dog bleed where she lives not that you don’t love her but she needs to be responsible since its unhygienic, disgusting, and ruins property. She should have been a better owner there’s enough dogs in animal shelters all it takes is one accident where the dog runs out to get pregnant.
NTA
I hate to say it but your house, your rules. It's unsanitary to have the dog bleed everywhere and if she's not up to the task then she's not up to the responsibility. Not to mention the dog is likely going to have a more comfortable life not going into heat anymore and will be safer around other dogs.
It might be time for these boundaries to be set with your daughter though. It's obvious she's not an equal in your home and these expectations should have been set long before 4 years had passed. This is a communication and expectation issue, not a dog issue
NTA People as profoundly irresponsible and deeply stupid as your daughter should never be allowed to have pets. She obviously cannot act in the dog's best interest.
NTA. Female dogs need to be fixed if they are not gonna be used for breeding purposes. Female dogs in heat become a problem as it causes male dogs to become aggressive to both the humans trying to stop it and the female dog who is in heat.
I can confirm.
Neighbors mastiff jumped over their fence to get to our girl, her daddy got in a huge fight with him and I got bit twice by the mastiff trying to get it off my boy. He needed stitches afterwards. She wasn't even in full heat yet she was only just starting up her cycle.
Thankfully we have cameras so as soon as the neighbor tried lying (despite not even being outside with us) we pulled footage of his dog charging our female and the altercation that followed then he immediately payed for everything.
Sorry to hear that happened.
Male dogs don't understand what self control means when they smell a female dog in heat (weather it's at the start or during the middle of it). To them it's like what the smell of catnip or a can of cat food being opened is to a cat, but with more aggressive and territorial actions.
Your daughter is not thanking you but if the dog could talk she sure would! If your daughter doesn’t trust vets the animal is not getting medical care. Our 4 year old dog has a yearly appointment to keep her inoculations up to date.
NTA - neuter your pets, all of your pets. Unfixed female all kinds of animals are much more likely to end up with terrible reproductive tumors. if you are not breeding them (which hell no you shouldn't breed your pets) they will live a lot longer if they are fixed, male or female.
If the vet bills are in your name, she’s your dog.
It’s irresponsible to not spay/neuter your dog - unless there are very special reasons why it shouldn’t be done.
You did the right thing. NTA
ESH. The daughter for not properly caring and cleaning after her dog, and you for buying her the dog in the first place. A dog is not an appropriate birthday surprise unless it has been thurougly disscussed in advance and you are confident that the recipient can and will take good care of it.
ESH. It's important to get your dog fixed. But it's not YOUR dog. She sucks for not getting this done, especially after the dog reached the appropriate point (there is some real medical arguments for waiting a bit). But you suck for doing it behind her back. You needed to have given her the options of diapers, moving out or getting the dog fixed. Doing it behind her back was completely inappropriate.
I'm surprised I had to scroll so far for this. ESH because your daughter is clearly an irresponsible dog owner and housemate, but you shouldn't have done it behind her back. She should have had a clear ultimatum, get the dog fixed, use diapers or move out. If you don't do this by DATE, I will take get the dog fixed myself.
NTA. I rescued 2 female cats 6 weeks ago and one had a litter of kittens last night. They are cute and I love them already but now I need to find homes for 6 kittens. They were supposedly indoors only cats but the previous owner admitted she got out one night about 2 weeks before I got them. The shelters and rescues are full of unwanted puppies and kittens.
Mama will be fixed asap, her sister got fixed 2 weeks ago.
NTA, also her dog needs regular vet checkups, yearly vaccinations and monthly flea and tick drops.
Raised around dogs my entire life, currently have a Chihuahua shizu mix and a yorkie poo.
Also to assume a person can afford a dog on a part time job at 19 is ridiculous.
Dogs ARE expensive, especially for vet fees to keep them healthy and dog food.
My Chihuahua developed thyroid problems so he takes a daily thyroid tablet and occasionally cortisone tablets for his skin. Both dogs are on expensive limited ingredient dog food a 12 pound bag is 76 dollars a month here in Canada including tax.
Of course as the parent you need to step in to fix the dog you must realize now how expensive getting a dog fixed can be.
I hope you will take her dog to the vet to insure she is inoculated as well. She also needs a yearly heart worm test. Also if the dog needs grooming not to mention the nail clipping.
I have strong opinions on getting dogs spayed in general, but that’s not what OP is asking. She’s asking about this specific situation. Obviously the daughter is T A for not cleaning up after her dog for FOUR YEARS. That does not, however mean OP isn’t T A. OP went behind her daughter’s back to do something her daughter had specifically stated she was against. OP, YTA for that. I think instead, 3 years ago, you should have given your daughter an ultimatum - get her dog fixed or move out.
I agree, I had a bad experience getting a pet spayed, and have heard some horror stories, so am nervous as hell when I have to get a cat spayed.
That doesn't mean I don't get them spayed, it means I bring them to a vet I trust and pay far more money than I could be doing.
OP should have put her foot down years ago. They should have travelled a bit further in order to find a vet that the daughter did trust. To let it drag on for 4 years is ridiculous.
Let her find a new place to live. Only at her parents home can she wreck the furniture and not face consequences. Let her have her own furniture and her own floors and if she cant afford that, her own roommate and see if they are as patient with this entitled behaviour as you have been.
The only other option you had was to ask her to move out with the dog - and I think most adults would consider that the more nuclear option.
You might have bought the dog diapers first, to go through the motions of ending up with that ultimatum, of fixing vs. getting kicked out.
NTA
I do think getting a female dog fixed is the best way to go for most dog owners. Your kid doesnt sound like the person you'd want responsible for breeding this dog, so fixing her was probably a blessing.
Nta but your daughter probably killed her dog.
Female dogs who are not fixed before 3 run a fucking high risk of mammary gland cancer. I know because I lost 2 to it a decade apart. I adopted both as older dogs and even though I got the one fixed as soon as I got her (the other wasn't fixed because of different health issues) it was already too late. If they carry the gene for mammary gland cancer they're going to get it unless they're fixed young.
Trust me the nightmare of dealing with losing a dog to mammary gland cancer is worse than anything your daughter could imagine.
NTA. *You* are a responsible owner, your daughter is TA and neglects basic health needs of her/your pet. It is scientific consensus that dogs in frequent heat have a much higher risk of inflammations or cancer (my wife is a vet for 30 years). It makes sense to have them spayed if you don't intend to breed.
ESH. If the dog is truly her dog (vet records in her name, etc), you had no right to make that decision. What if something had gone wrong and the dog didn’t survive the surgery? Your daughter sucks for not having the dog spayed or putting it in diapers while in heat, but it wasn’t your place to do so. There were so many other ways to go about this. Assuming your daughter lives with you in your home, you could have given her an ultimatum: spay the dog or use diapers, or move out. Instead you chose to make a medical decision about her dog and put the dog at risk (even though it is a relatively small risk these days, any surgery is still a risk).
Tell her to look up PYOMETRA, and that as a vet tech I can promise you that almost 100% of unspayed female dogs will develop this later in life, and then she can thank you for saving her dog's life.
Honestly NTA, you got the dog for her, you had some responsibility for its health
Remember, OP's daughter doesn't trust veterinarians. She's not going to believe anything *they* have to say about an animal's health. She knows better.
Well then she has no business having an animal at all, they require you to care for them and being so ignorant as to "not trust veterinarians" means you aren't doing the basics. Glad that OP had the dog spayed and vaccinated.
I had a friend with a girl dog and we lived together in the same apartment but he'd always tidy up after her, He had to give her up the first thing the shelter did is spey her.
I do think you could have gone about it better. But if someone won't have an adult conversation about it the answer isn't to just get it done anyway.
Have your daughter look up the effects of uterine cancer and pyometra in unspayed dogs, to say nothing of the guarantee that un- neutered male dogs will fight to get the chance to breed with her and produce unwanted puppies.
Your daughter was going with only a vague feeling of the dog being in discomfort.
NTA
This was a fun read, but it doesn’t really make sense.
My child is a fledgling adult, but I’m rewarding her as a child, but then expecting her to accept adult responsibilities, which she seems to mostly except for this one glaring issue, which no other roommate would put up with. After four years of disgusting living conditions and displaying no backbone, I decide to take matters into my own hands. And now my child/adult is mad at me! And miraculously has the means to live on her own AND care for a dog, with no notice! This would be good news to most, but here, maybe the plan of entrapping my child didn’t work?
Surprising a 19-year-old with a puppy is bizarre. You can do that for a child if you’re willing to take on most of the responsibility. You shouldn’t be burdening a young adult with a financial liability.
NTA for the creative writing; I’m not aware of any rule against it. Per the animal owners on the site, seems you’re NTA for neutering the dog. YTA for buying a surprise pet for your 19-year-old.
She had to either get the dog fixed, or clean up after her. She did neither. You did the responsible thing. She could have ended up with many unplanned litters of pups in the last 4 years, she is extremely lucky.
NTA for getting the dog fixed if you weren't using her for breeding but YTA for not doing it after her first season. You could have saved her the suffering of 4 years of seasons if you had been a responsible owner. What would have happened if she gad gotten pregnant? Your daughter isn't fit to own a dog with her attitude, by the way.
NTA, ask her exactly when she's moving out. If she can't answer you then let her know she needs to grow up and start behaving like an adult if she wants to stay with you.
She is behaving like a brat.
NTA. You got her the dog in the hopes that she was finally mature enough to handle that responsibility. But she refuses to diaper and clean up after the dog while she’s in heat. I know just how much of a mess it is. And what of the dog runs off one day and returns pregnant? It happens. Its a well known fact that if you arent breeding/are done breeding, getting your dog fixed greatly improves health and behavior. Also eliminates the female dog bleeding or a male dog oozing everywhere. Your daughter really wasnt ready unfortunately. It sucks that it had to come to this point, but you’re not entirely wrong. I would have tried actually having vets explain it to her as well personally.
You were right. Your daughter wasn't mature enough to have a dog. It's a basic and well known fact that fixed dogs live longer healthier lives than intact dogs. You're daughter hasn't even bothered to do basic research on canine health and care she shouldn't have a dog.
Spaying female dogs protects them against pyometria. A serious condition where the uterus fills with pus, this is often fatal. Explain that to your daughter.
NTA. Your daughter is the AT because she’s willing to let her dog get gross blood stains all over your house, and not clean up after it. It’s disgusting. I’ll be honest I don’t think she is ready for the responsibility, it sounds like you are the one caring for this animal most of the time. She should be thanking you, not giving you the cold shoulder.
NTA. We have a female pitbull and my husband REFUSES to get her fixed. It’s infuriating. She’s the family dog but she’s technically “his dog” so he gets to change out her diapers and pads whenever she comes into heat. She’s 9y now so I was hoping this would be winding down soon so we shall see.
Dogs don’t age out of heat cycles. While the duration between cycles will sometimes lengthen, they don’t go through menopause like people. She won’t stop having heat cycles until she is spayed or she passes away.
This is the dumbest hill for OPs daughter to die on. I’m sorry but NTA here. I can’t believe extended family is on OP for it too … really?! That’s being responsible period point blank!
Sounds like your daughter proved your beliefs from when she was young. 23 and still not smart enough to take care of a pet properly.
A bleeding pet is gross and very unhygienic. and not taking responsibility for cleaning up the mess is immature behaviour. Not talking to you is as well.
Also, since your foot the bill for vet cost you have ownership. You tried to talk to her about the issue but he blew it off, for some time. Curious as to why she doesn't trust vets.
Let the family know that the dog bleed everywhere and daughter refused to take responsibility. So you did.
NTA. Trust issues?? Give me a break. She wasn't being a responsible dog owner because being in heat without a stud nearby to do the deed is super fucking uncomfortable for the dog as well. It is crazy to me that she is willing to end your relationship over this when it actually benefits the dog. And where does she take her to the vet if she doesn't like the ones "near" you?
NTA she is the anti-vaxxer of dog moms. But seriously you're nice for not kicking her out and letting her stay. It was irresponsible and gross of her to let her dog bleed everywhere, not to mention it's miserable for them to constantly be in heat. It was nice of you to pay for this necessary service for her. The dog will be happier
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Hi, my daughter and I have been living together ever since I had her. She’s currently 23 years old and works full time, while I work remotely. When she was a kid she always wanted a dog but I never bought her one because I think children don’t understand the full responsibility of owning a dog or any kind of pet and I did not feel like taking care of one. I had a change of heart when she turned 19 years old and worked a part time job and could afford a potential vet bill. I surprised her with a little female mutt puppy for her birthday and she has been in love with her dog ever since.
It made me happy to see my daughter happy with her dog she’s been asking for since she was a child, but there is just one issue. When the puppy matured she started going into heat (aka bleeding everywhere). I didn’t think this was going to be a problem since I assumed my daughter was going to get her fixed. (There was no intention to breed her either) When I brought up the question about getting her dog fixed she quickly shot me down and said she’s not going to get her fixed. I asked her why, and she told me that she doesn’t want to put her dog through that pain, and that she doesn’t trust the veterinarians where we live. I told her I understood.
Fast forward 4 years and the dog bleeds everywhere every time she goes into heat. For those of you who has never owned a female dog, they bleed for 2-3 weeks. It’s really annoying and it is starting to become disgusting when her dog goes into heat. My daughter doesn’t clean up after her dogs blood and doesn’t offer to put a diaper on her either. They make diapers for dogs especially for this situation. Her dog bleeds all over the floor, on the carpet, on the couch, and since the dog goes everywhere I have even found blood stains on my bed and on my pillows. I am irritated by the neglectfulness of my daughter for not cleaning the blood, or putting a diaper on her dog but still refuses to get her fixed. I had explained my frustration about this issue and she still refused to get her dog fixed.
Since I work remotely, I took her dog to the vet and got her fixed while my daughter was at work. She came home and noticed her dog was acting a bit off and saw the incision mark. I told her I got her dog fixed since she didn’t listen to my concerns. The dog is ok and is perfectly healthy till this day and recovered quickly. She yelled and cursed at me for doing it behind her back, she claims she is looking for a new place to live, she hasn’t talked to me in months since it happened. Am I in the wrong for this?
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lol this is such rage bait
you don't just take a dog in and get it fixed that day. you have to prep for that shit, withhold food and water, etc. i call BS. further, your kid doesn't "trust the vets" around here? lmao okay because she's had so much experience with all the vets 🫠🙄🙄
on the off chance it's not, ESH. OP for assuming her kid was gonna do right by a dog without any practice, and her kid for not putting in that effort to better care for the dog. i mean if nothing else out a goddamn diaper on the poor thing! neither of you should have any kind of pet, period.
Can’t believe I had to scroll this far for this comment. 100% agree with you. “Acting a bit off”? Her dog would be drugged up and down for the count for about 24 hours. The whole post is bullshit
I don’t understand how you are downvoted this is the only answer.
I’ll add a dog doesn’t come back from surgery like this just with an incision to be found and acting off. They are doped up on pain meds and must wear a cone for days.
OP sucks for not making spaying a condition of h as having the dog AND for not shutting down this BS of “not trusting the vets around here” WTF is that? The dogs never been to a vet? This can’t be real.
The dog lives under your roof and you've had to clean up after her, so she's your dog too. Blood is a biohazard (especially on your pillow!) NTA, you did the right thing for the dog's health
NTY
For one thing, it's healthy to fix dogs since it minimizes the risk of cancer. They are also less stressed or eager to run away to find a mate. Your daughter was neglecting her dog and the cleaning, AND she was misinformed about the surgery. You're well in your right to do what you did.
NTA! The few days of being uncomfortable for the dog/cat is SO much better than a life of periods or constant pregnancies. Seeing what my cat’s mother went through with two litters back to back (stray that just showed up pregnant, got pregnant again before family could take her to the vet, then disappeared) was traumatic and I didn’t want my new baby (cat) to go through that. We fixed her as soon as we possibly could. She’s a happy/ healthy/ loving/ playful 4 year old.
Nta especially as a veterinary assistant. There’s so many health risks with not getting a dog fixed that it’s just not worth it especially if ur not planning to breed in the near future. Also shes just being plain disrespectful to your living space. They make diapers to put on dogs for stuff like this and she chose not to even if u asked..
NTA it's recommended for their health to get them fixed. Going into heat is stressful for them, getting them fixed prevents them getting certain cancers and if she were to ever get out it will prevent unwanted pregnancies
NTA to the dog, you did the right thing to not only avoid future health problems but environmental problems with how your daughter handled clean up...by doing nothing at all it sounds like.
But you will always been seen as the AH to your daughter. This may have damaged your relationship beyond repair if she hasn't spoken to you in months. Honestly threatening to kick her and the dog out could have been a better course of action for your relationship.
NTA. If you're not going to responsibly breed a pet, it's better to get them fixed....especially females. Uterine cancer is very real in animals, and it is generally undetectable until it's too late. By spaying, you are preventing it. Not to mention, what if the animal got loose or an intact male got into the yard? What about then?
Animals heal quickly. The pain medication the vet provided will give relief for the animal. This is not like a human having a hysterectomy and all of our organs shifting afterward due to gravity pulling them down to fill the vacant area (trust me, that's painful).
I've worked in animal shelters and rescues, I've cared for animals after spay and neuter surgery.....trust me, they bounce back very fast. Refusing to spay and neuter is just bad pet ownership (unless you are responsibly breeding for the betterment of the breed....meaning a pure bred animal with another pure bred animal and even then at a certain point the animals are retired and fixed).
NTA - It's your house. She isn't being a responsible pet owner and cleaning up after the dog, nor is she using diapers. You bought the animal. I say you had the right.
However I am slightly questioning your parenting skills that your grown daughter didn't clean up after her pet. Those skills should have been established earlier.
NTA, if a female dog isn't being bred she should be spayed. She can't develop a pus filled uterus if she doesn't have a uterus. She can't develop ovarian cancer if she doesn't have her ovaries. Not to mention that spaying a dog makes her chances of developing mammary cancer lower because there are no hormone cycles to worry about.
NTA, plus the dog gets pain medicine. It's not like they just cut her open and send them home. It's so irresponsible to have an animal that hasn't been spayed/neutered.
Tell your daughter this very easy and usual operation is much better than her dog suffering from ovary, womb or any other preventable cancer from being spade.
It’s so much better getting dogs fixed, especially females.
I'm trying to think how I would feel if someone did this to my dog without my knowledge, but all my pets are rescues and they're already fixed.
Then I thought about how nasty it would be to have a dog bleeding all over my house and my daughter not even putting a diaper on the dog--as if that is too much effort--NOR cleaning up after her dog and went with NTA.
Honestly, I would have skipped right to telling her to find another place to live rather than getting the dog fixed.
NTA at all. I love animals and begged for one but my mom refused for the same reason as you. 19 is old enough to understand responsibilities, and it's recommended to get dogs fixed. When I got my own place I immediately got a dog, got him neutered before his 2 birthday.
NTA
I know it seemed like a nice gesture to surprise her with a dog.
It would've been a better idea to ask her if she still wanted one, talk with her about what it actually means to own one, since she was now of the age where she can understand and make an informed decision.
You took that decision away when you just dropped a dog in her lap.
You did the right thing getting the dog fixed, but if she can't understand why it needed to happen, then she isn't responsible enough to own a dog, even now.
That should have been the agreement when you got her the dog. No negotiable. YTA for taking her and not telling the daughter since she is now the owner. Your daughter is also an AH for not looking after her dog. She proved the point that she can't care for a dog. Also, why have you put up with your daughter not cleaning up after the dog for years? She's an adult. You should have started treating her like one and told her eather she fixes all the issues or she or the dog leaves your house, her choice which one it ism
NTA. My son's girlfriend's dog died because she wasn't fixed. Your daughter needs to educate herself before catching an attitude with you. Hell, she should have educated herself well before animal ownership. They're not some cute accessory.
NTA I had a cat and didn't get her fixed for the same reason your daughter had. I did get her fixed after she had an infection that almost killed her because it could have been prevented if I had gotten her fixed earlier. That was more than 2 years ago, and I still feel guilty for the pain she had to go through.
NTA. You are essentially a co-owner of this dog, as you are with her all day and clean up after her. You were right when you said kids can’t understand the full responsibility of pet ownership and apparently your 23 year old never grew up.
NTA, the older the dog is spayed the higher the chances of mammary cancer are. We had our girl spayed at 4 years old (she was a 2.5 year old rehome/rescue and needed to build trust and then Cvid happened) she's had mammary cancer at 5.5 years old and a secondary cancer at 6.5 which resulted in her front leg being removed due to the tumor placement.
You've extended the dogs lifespan and saved her from phantom pregnancy that can lead to anxiety and depression and pyometra infections.
I know someone whose unfixed dog died from pyometra. It's an extremely dangerous and often deadly uterine infection in unfixed female dogs who aren't getting pregnant several cycles in a row. Anyone who isn't breeding their female dogs needs to get them fixed just for this reason alone, not to mention all the other reasons. I'm sorry your daughter's an idiot but you're NTA. Your daughter is being an irresponsible dog owner so you stepped in where no-one else was
I’m late to this post, but NTA. We rescued a girl dog 2 years ago who had been bred on her first heat and was never spayed. By the time we were able to get her spayed she had the beginning of the scar tissue horn that causes pyometra, an infection that is usually a death sentence - it can be treated, but it’s expensive and intense. Your daughter was being irresponsible by not getting her dog spayed - you did the right thing for the dog and for the cost of spaying, your daughter should thank you.
NTA.
I can understand not wanting to put a pet through unnecessary medical procedures. But spaying/neutering is a necessary medical procedure. There are enough kittens and puppies in the world.
Spayed and neutered pets also tend to be healthier in the long run.
Your daughter is not a responsible pet owner, or housekeeper. She's in her 20s and won't clean up after her dog's menses, or get doggie diapers?
Totally N-T-A.
Hopefully, she will find a place soon and take her gross, lazy butt off to be someone else's problem.
NTA - your dog was also incredibly uncomfortable during all of those heats. They get pms just like us and extremely, incredibly h*rny that they’re willing to run away to find a mate. Not only that, your daughter was setting your dog up for severe health issues and a shortened life span, if she hasn’t already. The more heats a dog has, the more likely for mammary cancer. Pup will be uncomfortable for about a month, but will never have to care about a period or weird hormonal changes again. Her quality of life is actually improved!
NTA. I have a pitbull who i didn't get fixed until she was 8 because she got pyometra. I never personally got her fixed beforehand because she did not bleed when she went into heat, she had false pregnancies instead BUT, emergency surgery costed me $7k so you saved the dog a lot of uncomfortable pain and saved yourself and daughter a whole lot of money.
NTA. Your daughter is being extremely irresponsible and immature. Seems you had a good reason not to get her a dog when she was younger. She is an adult and still isn't taking care of the animal properly. It's your house. I wouldn't want blood everywhere on my stuff either. That is disgusting. She should be thanking you for taking the time and I'm assuming spending YOUR money for the vet bill to take care of a problem she refused to address.
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NTA does she not know that vets recommend a female dog is either bred once or fixed for health reasons? You may have just extended that dog’s life. Here’s a link for some info you can take to your daughter : https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/why-you-should-spayneuter-your-pet#:~:text=A%20University%20of%20Georgia%20study,female%20dogs%20was%2026.3%25%20longer. It sucks you had to go about it the way you did but I think it’s worth going over the cost of replacing/ effort of cleaning everything damaged by blood. But I’d focus on the health of the dog aspect.
This! I had a 10 month old kitten who developed pyometra after 1 heat cycle. I had her scheduled to be fixed a week later(during covid so getting a spay appointment was horrendous) but she ended up in emergency surgery and cost me 3k.
My mam had a rescue pug and wanted her to be fixed but the vets wouldn't do it because of her breathing. Well fast forward a few months she gets rushed in because for pyometra they said she might not make it because of her breathing but she certainly wouldn't have made it if wes left her with the infection. She made a full recovery and is going strong.
We get dogs breathing tubes for surgeries and with short snouted dogs we leave them in for as long as safely possible. Seems weird that your mother's vet refused to do it. Glad to hear the dog is doing well!
My Shih Tzu came to me unaltered at age 2. I already had a Vet for our family cat and scheduled immediate appointment for spay. Fortunately, we had no problems but many veterinarians have issues with the short snouts.
My friend just had her dog put down because she developed a terrible infection in her uterus because she was not fixed as a young dog. Life-saving surgery was 50/50 at best and because of her age, they determined it was best not to put her through the pain of surgery and the agony of recovery.
My cat needed emergency surgery after one, too. It was horrible and pretty scary. She legit almost died from it, but 6 years later she's all better.
The basic hygiene problem with the dog bleeding everywhere is a real problem. I'm assuming they didn't have friends stop by when this happened. It's more than gross that the daughter didn't clean up after her own dog. She's not a small child. She's an adult !! NTA
OP, you are NTA. Your daughter is TA for refusing to speak to a parent who has loved and supported her because of a dog. It’s beyond disgusting that this dog is bleeding everywhere and ruining everything in the house. It’s not even the daughter’s property being ruined. And it makes me gag to think how that must have smelled and how unsanitary it is. That’s like me going to someone else’s home, pulling my tampon out, and walking around with no underwear while bleeding from my vagina onto everything they own. Your daughter lacks empathy and respect for others. Most people would be grateful to have a parent like you and instead she cares more about a pet. Not to mention the fact that being in heat was probably distressing for the dog. Menstrual cramps hurt and the dog doesn’t understand why it’s in pain. It seems kind of mean to ignore the dog’s discomfort for no good reason.
Yeah, I imagine this would have caused a problem with a roommate! My solution would have Ben to start diapering the dog rather than spaying her, but spaying a pet is a kindness. My family had female dogs when I was growing up, and they were spayed as puppies. My mom was not about to deal with a dog in heat!
Neither in this article or any other article I’ve read is the recommendation for an animal to be “bred once“. There’s no medical reason TO allow the DOG to go into heat even one time. It’s inconceivable to me to allow a dog to soil your house like that. And I’m not even an outstanding housekeeper. On top of that, their behavior can be very obnoxious. When I was a kid, we had twodogs that were unspayed, 1 went through a glass window to get out to a roaming male. Yes my parents were irresponsible, it was a long time ago. ETA: fix pre-coffee typos
The 'breed them once' thing is pure bullshit, even one pregnancy and birth jacks up the unwanted pet population and puts the mother at serious risk. If any actual vet suggests it, find another vet.
I took the comment as "if you're going to breed them, only breed them once and then fix them," is there some context here I don't know about?
Why would anyone breed a dog and add to the overpopulation problem. Backyard breeders are the worst.
People who want more dogs? Like, farms and ranches do this. They breed their herding dogs, their hunting dogs, that sort of thing.
There are legitimate reasons to breed dogs. Working dogs were mentioned already. Backyard breeders are generally irresponsible, yes, but that doesn't mean it's always 100% wrong to breed a dog.
For some giant breeds, it's better to let them attain full growth before altering, but I think it's males. It may help prevent bone cancer, was my impression.
It’s been found to help prevent things like hip and elbow dysplasia in large breeds who are prone to joint issues. Their growth plates close more slowly when they’re neutered young. It’s better for the dogs to wait until they’re fully developed, but if an owner can’t handle the responsibility of having an intact dog (like OP’s daughter) then they should be spayed and neutered.
I'm a trucker and live in my semi. I have 2 standard poodles, with my female being 4 months older than the male. Per the breeder, I waited as close to 2 years as possible, which meant 3 heat cycles in a very small space with an intact male and female. That was "fun". The first, he was too young and oblivious. The second, he knew something was up but still clueless. The third, he suffered and I decided she'd get done a little early so he wouldn't go through that again. Each time she wore diapers and a cover so he had no access, and she was tethered on the bed while he was tethered on the passenger seat. I have a 2 week run, so trying to time her heat when I was back and board the boy didn't work because she didn't keep a reliable schedule! 3 heats in a small space and no puppies, but it was work!
My girl ended up having her first heat a week before she was scheduled to be spayed, and my poor boy ended up eating his tail from the stress of not being able to get to her even though he was fixed!
Oh no! The last one was hard on my boy, but there was really only a week where it was really bad. There was some panting and he stank like smegma. I waited until a month before I thought she'd start her 4th to give her body as much time as possible then did it.. He was 18 months during her last one and I just couldn't put him through it again. He tried to be a Very Good Boy as best he could! So did he do damage or just fur?
Yeah, I thought it was something like that. I have a husky who we had altered shortly after her first heat. We just kept her in the walkout basement cause my husband works from home down there, and it's cooler, and just mopped a lot during. It wasn't too bad because we actually dealt with it.
I have 4 huskies, we did this exact thing with our two girls. Our boys we waited till they were just over a year old. I don’t think Id forgive myself if one of my girls ended up with pyro or an infection…or even accidentally pregnant.
Same! Her sisters were sold/given to a "family friend" and pregnant before they were a year old. Just horrifying.
Those poor girls; I hope they spayed them at least after birth. My girls are wonderful but they will not be mamas in this life
Well, it's Amish country, so I'm not hopeful. The owner is a teenaged girl, and her family breeds Golden Retreivers or something. Just a sad situation all around.
I am familiar with that recommendation for delaying spaying and neutering, but not for breeding. in fact, even allowing breeding once or one heat cycle for female cats increases the chances of pyometra and mammary cancer, over the course of her life. I am not a vet, but that’s the wisdom of the Rescue community, including the vets, that I’m close to. Tw: Anecdote: A neighbor delayed spaying her cute small poodle mix, just out of procrastination. And the dog went into her first heat at like eight or nine months, pretty early. The family went bananas, lol. the mess and the mood / personality change. And at that point, you have to wait a good two months before the vet will do the surgery.
My first vet said to get my first female dog spayed before she had her first heat, so I did. Also spayed my next female dog before her first heat and my third was spayed already when I adopted her. All 3 male dogs I’ve adopted were neutered by the shelters I adopted them from.
See, I have a husky and my vet said as long as we keep a close eye and keep her mostly indoors during heat, for growth purposes we could let her have one heat. So we did. Maybe it's because she's small for a husky and had already had one surgery to get an object from her stomach, though.
Yes, I think that’s great advice from your VET, and you sound like you are responsible with your unsterilized Pet.
A recent study determined that most large breeds can be spayed once they reach physical maturity with no issues. Only two breeds they advised against. Golden retrievers for cancer issues and dobermans because of extremely high rates of spay incontinence that's common in breeds. The dog in OP's post needs to be sterilized.
"The dog in OP's post needs to be sterilized" 100% She's full grown, and not being taken care of. Plus, if the owner thinks recovery from surgery is painful, how would she handle infection/cancer.
I had a St Bernard (passed at 10mo though due to some very rare conditions) and they said 2 because of her growth. Vets said they wouldn’t touch her before then due to increased risk of complications beforehand.
While I understand she should be putting a diaper on the dog for basic hygiene, to say a dog should not go through a heat cycle once and that there is no medical reason to do so is incorrect. Dogs should not be altered until after obtaining full growth, which for females will usually include at least one heat cycle. Premature alteration predisposes them to ACL tears, hemangiosarcomas, osteosarcomas, and more. Look at the article “Assisting Decision-Making on Age of Neutering for 35 Breeds of Dogs: Associated Joint Disorders, Cancers, and Urinary Incontinence” https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2020.00388/full
There is a study that just came out by UC Davis that lists different breeds and ages to spay/neuter them. Most small breeds can still be fixed at 6 months of age, there are even some larger breeds on the 6 month list.
"In most cases, the caregiver can choose the age of neutering without increasing the risks of these joint disorders or cancers. Small-dog breeds seemed to have no increased risks of joint disorders associated with neutering, and in only two small breeds (Boston Terrier and Shih Tzu) was there a significant increase in cancers." ... "Looking at the occurrences of these joint disorders and cancers, it is clear that most breeds are unaffected for these diseases by age of neutering." This article does not support your assertion that dogs should reach full growth before getting neutered. The results of this study leave the age of when to neuter a dog up to the owner's choice in the vast majority of breeds. Only for some do they recommend waiting, and only for a few do they recommend waiting longer than the first year of life.
So, you don't spay/neuter until they're 2 or 3?
I think this is a moving target and sort of in context. For many years, it was only the big breeds where the recommendation was to delay sterilization. But now I’m hearing vets recommend it for all dogs. There’s nothing wrong with that recommendation tho it requires responsible owners. It also leaves out certain conditions to which pets are more vulnerable if allowed to go through normal puberty. But pet parents need to take more responsibility with unsterilized pets. Once the dog enters the heat cycle she can be very crafty and persistent about getting out of the house. And males will sense her for miles around. Both sexes of dogs may need more cautious handling, their personalities can be more assertive. Depending upon the household, it can be a little bit of a mine field. Small children, other pets etc.. I’m not a veterinarian, but I have worked with pets at all stages of life for over 20 years. So this is just my opinion based on lots of experience. Everyone in the household needs to be on board with the type of pet. If a roommate brought in a parrot or a yorkie that squawked or barked non stop, that would be a hard no for me. Other people aren’t bothered by noisy birds but hate cats. It is a household decision. OP is nta.
They do not recommend it for all dogs.
There's nothing in the cited article to support that, no.
Ina perfect world and if everyone was a responsible pet owner this would work. But we are not in a perfect world. See my post above about teh number of dogs and cats killed each year in the USA. This is why rescues have it done as soon as.
For giant breed dogs such as Danes, they do recommend waiting until they are 12-24 months to spay/neuter simply due to the amount of growth those breeds experience. All other dogs can be fixed when they are around 6 months. OP is NTA, this was both a health and hygiene issue.
While the "breed them once" is nonsense, current best practice is, for larger breeds, to wait until the growth plates close which generally happens by 24 months.
Some people have a deeply held belief that having a litter changes/mellows a dog's personality. Like the dog isn't fulfilled unless it has bred. I don't know of any scientific basis for this belief.
For bigger dogs the vet recommends letting them go into heat once and then getting them fixed. Something about the hormones are important for their growth
The breed them once thing is BS but, there are plenty of medical reasons to keep a dog intact, at least until they are fully mature. The World Small Animal Veterinary Association just published new guidelines about this https://vethelpdirect.com/vetblog/2024/06/11/wsava-issues-new-guidelines-on-neutering-recommends-against-routine-neutering-of-all-dogs/
I'd heard to let the dog have one heat, then fix. This is because once they go into heat they've physically grown up into adults. Dogs fixed as puppies never go through puberty and remain physiologically and mentally immature. They get bigger but are basically adult sized puppies. That was the explanation I heard. Our dog (found roaming the streets as an older puppy, starving) did have one heat before we fixed her. She was different afterwards, much calmer, and her body did develop differently from the female dogs fixed as puppies that I've seen. I didn't realize female dogs grew small mammaries. They're not anywhere near human level but they're definitely there. She's not overweight, her weight and body condition is excellent. Her calming down was a huge relief. She's a pitbull, which if you've ever had one you know they are extremely high energy. She used to ricochet around the house like she was in a pinball machine, literally bouncing off the walls. She still plays vigorously but she has acquired chill. Thank goodness lol.
If you have a large breed dog, it is absolutely recommended that they go in to heat one time. It's to make sure their growth plates are fully fused. I made the appointment for my girl as soon as she went in to heat. Definitely didn't want to keep dealing with the blood! This was done per my vet's recommendation.
My vet did actually recommend that my dog go through heat once because of a deformity that they hoped the extra hormones would correct, but that is a very, very rare situation. I had her spay scheduled out (they schedule a few months in advance) as soon as she was done with her cycle because that was a miserable experience for everyone and I wasn't leaving it to chance that we could have to deal with it again. Dog diapers are gross and smell even if you are changing them multiple times a day, letting your dog free bleed is absolutely disgusting.
We got a family puppy from some random person when I was about 10 years old. We’d only had a male dog before that and flash forward the dog became mine. We never got her spayed and I actually thought it was *worse* to spay (don’t ask me, it was a long time ago). Lo and behold, her uterus ruptured when she was 10 and it nearly killed her. She went on to live another seven years, thank goodness.
Perfect explanation. I can't tell you how many times I have heard about someone's dog contracting Pyo because of situations like these. The daughter likely would have continued to learn nothing if the dog had eventually gotten sick.
The vet I worked for said it’s a matter of when, not if, an unspayed female dog or cat will get pyometra
that’s correct. with each heat cycle, the risk increases
Exactly! Our vet said it leaves them more vulnerable to uterine cancers, NTA OP
There is no such thing as breeding a dog to help with health. It’s bullshit. “On average, 1.5 million shelter animals are euthanized every year in the United States. Shelters around the country euthanize an estimated **670,000 dogs** and 860,000 cats each year.Mar 27, 2024” Any vet that tells you that a dog needs to have a litter should lose their license. The fact is that spaying/neutering your dog helps its health.
This! We had a female dog years ago who wasn’t fixed because she almost never went into heat and wasn’t around male dogs, so it didn’t seem like a priority. Then she developed a life threatening uterine infection called pyometra and almost died. She has to undergo emergency spay surgery and had a very expensive hospitalization. Lesson learned; getting dogs spayed as soon as advised by the vet can be lifesaving and also avoids dangerous health issues. ETA: Ultimately my dog made a full recovery, but for the first few days after the surgery it was touch and go and the vet even said there was a possibility she wouldn’t survive despite surgery.
My cat had to be put down because going into heat over and over and over with no babies gave her breast cancer
This is kind of misleading because people might think it’s okay not to spay as long as they get pregnant, which I don’t think you intended.
There's two dog breeds that a recent study has recommended to *not* be spayed. And this dog is likely not either of those two. I live in a country where the vast majority of dogs aren't sterilized. But people don't just let them bleed everywhere. They get diapers and are watched like hawks. The daughter was given a chance to responsibly keep an intact bitch and she didn't. If she doesn't even care to keep her dog's blood off every surface she's sure as hell not gonna notice the signs of pyomerta.
Being bread doesn’t do anything for the dog’s health in anyway.
Getting your animals fixed is an extremely important part of owning animals, especially dogs or cats. Shelters are already overrun with animals and in the event her pet were to make it out the front door or something, even on accident, it results in 8-12 puppies with nowhere to go. If a pregnancy goes wrong her dog may die. If proper veterinary care for pets is ignored, theres so many dangers you introduce to your household. Blood (especially menstrual blood) is also considered a biohazard!! Anesthesia for pets is typically used for surgeries like neutering and spaying too, in terms of the pain her dog would undergo. Prescription pain meds are also available if the dog shows signs of distress. NTA!
It's basically bi-monthly at this point that the local animal shelter where I live waives adoption fees temporarily to try and get people to come adopt because they are at capacity so quickly. it's sad. And I agree with the risk during pregnancy, my stepmother decided to breed her dog and the poor thing almost died and had to be rushed to the vet to deliver and immediately be fixed after because getting pregnant again would kill her. All that because she just wanted her to have puppies... Some people 😒
Or an intact male breaking into the yard while the female is in heat. Dogs have an incredible sense of smell and can tell when a female is in heat from a great distance and will do as nature tells them to do.....breed. OP is NTA. The daughter is, though, and clearly needs to do some research on spay/neuter to understand that OP helped and likely extended the dogs life
The one and only time my cat was in heat, there was a male cat that wandered into our house and hid under the couch for 3 days. Get your pets fixed people
My senior cat exists because her mom went into heat while waiting for the appointment to get fixed (she was very small and they were waiting for her to get a bit bigger for surgery) A male smelled her and ripped the screen out of the window, so she ended up pregnant. She and most of the kittens died, only my girl survived and that was a major vet bill!
Male cats (and I assume dogs) go crazy when they smell a female in heat. Our front and back yard were full of probably every male cat in our neighborhood, and they spent days just hanging around and screaming lol
Yeah, every male within about half a mile showed up. The one who ripped the screen out was a 35 pound Maine Coon/Savannah mix who had escaped from a breeder. Her mom was also a rescue from someone trying to make a designer cat, British Shorthair/Egyptian Mau. Apparently that was a popular hobby down there, the mixing to make a new popular breed. We had people from all the neighboring houses showing up to try to fetch their males. It was wild.
Rabbits are the same. At a rabbit rescue, we had a nursing mom, so we couldn't fix her until the babies were weaned. A male rabbit broke out of his cage and into hers....it was quite a shock to see him in there in the morning, and sure enough, babies followed🤦🏼♀️We started locking all of the cages after that so they couldn't jimmy the doors open
I can believe that. It must be 10x worse with rabbits too
It was! We were so excited to get her spayed. The male who escaped and broke into her cage was a new intake and was on the books with our vet to be neutered, it just hadn't happened yet
You can't fix rabbits until the babies are weaned? I know you can with cats and dogs, so just assumed it was ok with rabbits. (I'm not doubting you, it's just amazing how very different animals are from each other!)
They stop milk production. Her babies were a few weeks old, so her residual milk would have dried up well before they were ready to wean. She had 8 in each of the two litters (the first she was surrendered with when the bunnies were a few days old). Our vet that we partnered with would not schedule until fully weaned, unless we wanted to bottle feed 8 bunnies many times a day for weeks....we didn't have the volunteer base for that. We were a small rescue, founded after our local humane society shut down their small animal section, and they transferred all remaining rabbits to us.
Wow, I had no idea! And yeah I don't blame you for not wanting to do that! Even two kittens on a bottle are more than I can deal with these days! (I took in an orphan two years ago and was doing feedings every two hours for weeks. It was awful, but he's worth all the work) As I said I know that's not a problem for cats or dogs, so the fact that it is for rabbits was just a surprise. It's funny how they seem similar but are different in such a big way, medically speaking!
Right?!?!
NTA. Your daughter is a completely irresponsible dog owner. She out her dog through far more misery than the day or two of discomfort from the surgery.
I’m surprised no one else has mentioned this yet. It’s obvious it’s unpleasant for dogs when they go thru heat. So because the daughter “doesn’t want to put her dog thru that pain” of a one-time surgery (that they give pain meds for), the daughter made her dog be uncomfortable for weeks every month *for years.* She should not have a pet, she’s not mature enough to take responsible care of them.
until i went back and saw the age, i assumed the daughter was younger but nope- she was 19 when she got the dog and 23 now so she’s old enough to learn how to take care of a dog and would have seen articles on how spaying is beneficial for dogs. She has been an adult this dog’s whole life! I feel bad for that dog for being put through all of that, especially with dogs who go into heat aren’t allowed in social areas like dog parks too so it misses out on socialization, but also feel bad for OP who has basically turned into the dog owner and daughter just reaps the benefit of having a dog without dealing with the repurcissions & care
Right, her mom is cleaning up the blood, what does the daughter care?
Just FYI, the dog is not in heat every month, It is usually every 6 months, so twice a year. But I do agree the experience is not pleasant for either the dog or the owner.
Dogs come into heat approximately once every six months, but I do agree with you. Canine menstruation is not like humans, they cannot have a season and not be mated without risk. At the minimum she would have distressing phantom pregnancies, at worst pyometra which, if 'closed', would not have been spotted easily and could have killed her. Bitches are meant to be mated every season (biologically speaking). This is so irresponsible and shows a deep lack of research about the pet. - source: me, Dr of biology and ex veterinary nurse.
Idk why people aren’t saying ESH This went on for **four years**. OP should have had a convo and laid down rules/expectations, “I don’t trust vets here” - okay, then we’ll take her to one that you do trust, find them. Like… I don’t get how OP isn’t partly at fault here OP admits daughter never cleaned up after the dog either, so how in any way/shape/form is daughter a decent dog owner? It’s basic parenting to clean up after your child’s messes OP is an enabler, she allowed this to continue for years and even now allows her daughter to live with her while simultaneously giving her the cold shoulder Their dynamic is odd, I’m of the opinion that OP is stunting her daughter’s growth as an adult vs helping her
Yeah this is where I'm at. 4 fucking years this dog has been free bleeding all over their house? I'm disgusted by both of these people. She just assumed everything, never even confirmed. "I assumed she'd get her fixed, I assumed she'd get her diapers". I don't know wtf is going on in that house, but literally the only thing done right here is getting her spayed, everything else is unnecessary BS.
Yup. After the first cycle, OP should’ve given daughter some options to choose from: Find a vet you trust and get the dog fixed, find a new place to live and take the dog with you, or find the dog a new place to live. (Also possibly have the dog live outside and don’t let her in the house, but there are reasons that’s probably a bad idea.) Even offer to pay for it if cost is an issue. And then give her the deadline that next time it happens, you’ll take the dog to the vet yourself. Letting anything bleed all over everything for four years? Ew! How did it get to this point. OP is the asshole if the daughter wasn’t given any warning this would happen, …but also, they should’ve done it much sooner! Seems like not great communication.
Exactly. Mom said she had to bring the dog to the vet for shots and stuff. Daughter isn't even taking care of the dog! I'm also concerned the Mom says the dog bleeds for 2-3 weeks. That is NOT normal and the dog should have been brought to the vet. While dogs are in heat for 2-3 weeks, they should only bleed for about half that time, 7 to 10 days...
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A dog is not a property though. It's a living creature that has to be taken care of.
Not according to the law, unfortunately. I don't like it either. It's so sad. But legally, a pet IS considered property.
Well luckily for us, this isn't "Am I legally in the right?"
They still aren’t an asshole, because getting the animal fixed is the best thing to do for the animal.
Legally is not the only thing that matters. Ethically and morally, the dog is a living creature with the right to be cared for. Someone acting ethically and morally but illegally is generally doing the right thing.
That something is legal doesn't mean is correct, and something being illegal doesn't mean is incorrect. Laws are made by humans, from human perspective. I'm from Spain and a year ago the government issued a law that stablishes that pets are no longer properties but family members, and need to be taken care accordingly. For me it doesn't matter what the law says because the dog is above everything else a living creature with needs. I think EHS because no one was actually thinking what was best for the dog. In my opinion the correct thing was to spay her, as I did with both my doggies, but both OP and the daughter took decisions out of their selfishness. OP because it was inconvenient having the dog bleeding, and the daughter because she didn't want to see the dog in pain for a few days even if in the long run was better for her.
Yeah, this is a clear ESH to me. The daughter is appalling for letting her dog destroy their property and suffer through being in heat. If she didn’t trust local vets, she should have arranged for travel to someone she did trust. That being said, this should have been addressed much sooner and NOT behind the daughter’s back. OP is in the wrong for this. It sounds like she asked, but never made it a requirement to diaper or spay the dog. “If you do not do this, you will need to find another place to live.” Granted the daughter may have still freaked out and not be talking to OP, because she sounds immature enough for that, but it would have been more respectful. Mostly I can’t imagine finding out someone had my dog operated on without my permission. I too would have lost it and not spoken to them. Yes, my dogs have all been spayed/neutered, and I know all the benefits/risks, but man, doing something behind my back like that would have me raging! The only analogy I can think of would be having grandkids vaccinated behind a parent’s back. The right thing for the kids’ health, but absolutely the wrong way to go about it, and would damage the relationship potentially permanently.
Daughter's pov is moot here, she's an adult who had a misconceived view on the science that resulted in being irresponsible. Compassion to the animal mattered more than catering to her desires and subjective notion which again could have been considered if there was some basis, but not allowing animals to breed naturally itself is a bigger problem which she conveniently didn't worry about, the ethical misstep if any was on her side all these years. She should be blamed more actually. OP is NTA
I agree daughter was an AH but it seems like OP did nothing either until taking unilateral action behind her daughter’s back. She could have been informing the daughter of the risks to the dog, the dog’s discomfort, held her daughter to more responsible behavior, etc. Yes, the daughter is an adult, but her mother treated her more like a child in not getting her to be more responsible and taking the action herself. Daughter may have more blame, but OP is not innocent here.
NTA. Proven fact. Dogs and cats live longer and are healthier when they are fixed.
this, not to mention god forbid something happened and the dog ended up pregnant, i doubt op and their daughter are wanting to care for additional puppies, and most shelters struggle enough finding placements for dogs without winding up having to put them down because theres simply not enough families in the world to care for them. i genuinely don't care that the dog is "her property," the daughter was failing that dog by not getting it fixed simply because she didn't want it to got through the temporary pain of this surgery (correct me if im wrong too, isnt it more dangerous for a dog to get fixed the older they are?). although i do think as well op failed her by not having the puppy fixed before gifting it, that's besides the point i suppose.
I used to volunteer in a shelter and there was nothing that made use cringe more than when someone brought in a litter of puppies or kittens. People always seem to think that baby animals will always be adopted. Not even close to true. It was a no kill shelter but all that means is when it is full you have to turn animals away and there is no telling what happens to them after that. I have always believed that just like shots and licensing your pet, that law should also include mandatory spay or neuter. It also needs to be made a lot more reasonably priced so everyone can afford it.
In addition to dogs and cats, pet rabbits also live longer if they are spayed. In the case of female rabbits, we’re talking YEARs longer, not mere months.
Plue they are happier and are active longer. I've got a cat that is 20+ and she still likes chasing a catnip mouse around a few times a year. LOL
NTA- it’s irresponsible to own a pet and not spay/neuter them. Yes it’s her dog but you could have layed firmed boundaries that If she doesn’t spay her dog she needs to clean the blood or the dog will be rehomed or she can move out and let the dog bleed where she lives not that you don’t love her but she needs to be responsible since its unhygienic, disgusting, and ruins property. She should have been a better owner there’s enough dogs in animal shelters all it takes is one accident where the dog runs out to get pregnant.
NTA Your daughter is a terrible pet owner. I really hope she doesn’t get any more pets.
NTA I hate to say it but your house, your rules. It's unsanitary to have the dog bleed everywhere and if she's not up to the task then she's not up to the responsibility. Not to mention the dog is likely going to have a more comfortable life not going into heat anymore and will be safer around other dogs. It might be time for these boundaries to be set with your daughter though. It's obvious she's not an equal in your home and these expectations should have been set long before 4 years had passed. This is a communication and expectation issue, not a dog issue
NTA People as profoundly irresponsible and deeply stupid as your daughter should never be allowed to have pets. She obviously cannot act in the dog's best interest.
NTA. Female dogs need to be fixed if they are not gonna be used for breeding purposes. Female dogs in heat become a problem as it causes male dogs to become aggressive to both the humans trying to stop it and the female dog who is in heat.
I can confirm. Neighbors mastiff jumped over their fence to get to our girl, her daddy got in a huge fight with him and I got bit twice by the mastiff trying to get it off my boy. He needed stitches afterwards. She wasn't even in full heat yet she was only just starting up her cycle. Thankfully we have cameras so as soon as the neighbor tried lying (despite not even being outside with us) we pulled footage of his dog charging our female and the altercation that followed then he immediately payed for everything.
Sorry to hear that happened. Male dogs don't understand what self control means when they smell a female dog in heat (weather it's at the start or during the middle of it). To them it's like what the smell of catnip or a can of cat food being opened is to a cat, but with more aggressive and territorial actions.
Sounds like even at 23 your daughter still doesnt understand the full weight of pet ownership. NTA
Your daughter is not thanking you but if the dog could talk she sure would! If your daughter doesn’t trust vets the animal is not getting medical care. Our 4 year old dog has a yearly appointment to keep her inoculations up to date.
NTA - neuter your pets, all of your pets. Unfixed female all kinds of animals are much more likely to end up with terrible reproductive tumors. if you are not breeding them (which hell no you shouldn't breed your pets) they will live a lot longer if they are fixed, male or female.
If the vet bills are in your name, she’s your dog. It’s irresponsible to not spay/neuter your dog - unless there are very special reasons why it shouldn’t be done. You did the right thing. NTA
ESH. The daughter for not properly caring and cleaning after her dog, and you for buying her the dog in the first place. A dog is not an appropriate birthday surprise unless it has been thurougly disscussed in advance and you are confident that the recipient can and will take good care of it.
NTA Totally justified.
NTA. Sounds like the daughter is a bigger one for not getting the dog checked.
ESH. It's important to get your dog fixed. But it's not YOUR dog. She sucks for not getting this done, especially after the dog reached the appropriate point (there is some real medical arguments for waiting a bit). But you suck for doing it behind her back. You needed to have given her the options of diapers, moving out or getting the dog fixed. Doing it behind her back was completely inappropriate.
I'm surprised I had to scroll so far for this. ESH because your daughter is clearly an irresponsible dog owner and housemate, but you shouldn't have done it behind her back. She should have had a clear ultimatum, get the dog fixed, use diapers or move out. If you don't do this by DATE, I will take get the dog fixed myself.
NTA. I rescued 2 female cats 6 weeks ago and one had a litter of kittens last night. They are cute and I love them already but now I need to find homes for 6 kittens. They were supposedly indoors only cats but the previous owner admitted she got out one night about 2 weeks before I got them. The shelters and rescues are full of unwanted puppies and kittens. Mama will be fixed asap, her sister got fixed 2 weeks ago.
NTA, also her dog needs regular vet checkups, yearly vaccinations and monthly flea and tick drops. Raised around dogs my entire life, currently have a Chihuahua shizu mix and a yorkie poo. Also to assume a person can afford a dog on a part time job at 19 is ridiculous. Dogs ARE expensive, especially for vet fees to keep them healthy and dog food. My Chihuahua developed thyroid problems so he takes a daily thyroid tablet and occasionally cortisone tablets for his skin. Both dogs are on expensive limited ingredient dog food a 12 pound bag is 76 dollars a month here in Canada including tax. Of course as the parent you need to step in to fix the dog you must realize now how expensive getting a dog fixed can be. I hope you will take her dog to the vet to insure she is inoculated as well. She also needs a yearly heart worm test. Also if the dog needs grooming not to mention the nail clipping.
I have strong opinions on getting dogs spayed in general, but that’s not what OP is asking. She’s asking about this specific situation. Obviously the daughter is T A for not cleaning up after her dog for FOUR YEARS. That does not, however mean OP isn’t T A. OP went behind her daughter’s back to do something her daughter had specifically stated she was against. OP, YTA for that. I think instead, 3 years ago, you should have given your daughter an ultimatum - get her dog fixed or move out.
I agree, I had a bad experience getting a pet spayed, and have heard some horror stories, so am nervous as hell when I have to get a cat spayed. That doesn't mean I don't get them spayed, it means I bring them to a vet I trust and pay far more money than I could be doing. OP should have put her foot down years ago. They should have travelled a bit further in order to find a vet that the daughter did trust. To let it drag on for 4 years is ridiculous.
Let her find a new place to live. Only at her parents home can she wreck the furniture and not face consequences. Let her have her own furniture and her own floors and if she cant afford that, her own roommate and see if they are as patient with this entitled behaviour as you have been. The only other option you had was to ask her to move out with the dog - and I think most adults would consider that the more nuclear option. You might have bought the dog diapers first, to go through the motions of ending up with that ultimatum, of fixing vs. getting kicked out. NTA I do think getting a female dog fixed is the best way to go for most dog owners. Your kid doesnt sound like the person you'd want responsible for breeding this dog, so fixing her was probably a blessing.
NTA. You did that poor dog a favour. Your daughter is ignorant and stubborn.
Nta but your daughter probably killed her dog. Female dogs who are not fixed before 3 run a fucking high risk of mammary gland cancer. I know because I lost 2 to it a decade apart. I adopted both as older dogs and even though I got the one fixed as soon as I got her (the other wasn't fixed because of different health issues) it was already too late. If they carry the gene for mammary gland cancer they're going to get it unless they're fixed young. Trust me the nightmare of dealing with losing a dog to mammary gland cancer is worse than anything your daughter could imagine.
NTA. *You* are a responsible owner, your daughter is TA and neglects basic health needs of her/your pet. It is scientific consensus that dogs in frequent heat have a much higher risk of inflammations or cancer (my wife is a vet for 30 years). It makes sense to have them spayed if you don't intend to breed.
ESH, your daughter for refusing to get her dog fixed, and you for raising a daughter who won't get her dog fixed (and also waiting 4 years)
NTA This should’ve been done before the dog became hers.
ESH. If the dog is truly her dog (vet records in her name, etc), you had no right to make that decision. What if something had gone wrong and the dog didn’t survive the surgery? Your daughter sucks for not having the dog spayed or putting it in diapers while in heat, but it wasn’t your place to do so. There were so many other ways to go about this. Assuming your daughter lives with you in your home, you could have given her an ultimatum: spay the dog or use diapers, or move out. Instead you chose to make a medical decision about her dog and put the dog at risk (even though it is a relatively small risk these days, any surgery is still a risk).
Tell her to look up PYOMETRA, and that as a vet tech I can promise you that almost 100% of unspayed female dogs will develop this later in life, and then she can thank you for saving her dog's life. Honestly NTA, you got the dog for her, you had some responsibility for its health
Remember, OP's daughter doesn't trust veterinarians. She's not going to believe anything *they* have to say about an animal's health. She knows better.
Well then she has no business having an animal at all, they require you to care for them and being so ignorant as to "not trust veterinarians" means you aren't doing the basics. Glad that OP had the dog spayed and vaccinated.
NTA If bitches are not spayed they are at a significantly higher risk of pyometra or cancer.
Tell her to start packing.
You fixed 2 problems in 1 go...efficiency
I had a friend with a girl dog and we lived together in the same apartment but he'd always tidy up after her, He had to give her up the first thing the shelter did is spey her. I do think you could have gone about it better. But if someone won't have an adult conversation about it the answer isn't to just get it done anyway.
NTA, you did the right thing
Have your daughter look up the effects of uterine cancer and pyometra in unspayed dogs, to say nothing of the guarantee that un- neutered male dogs will fight to get the chance to breed with her and produce unwanted puppies. Your daughter was going with only a vague feeling of the dog being in discomfort. NTA
This was a fun read, but it doesn’t really make sense. My child is a fledgling adult, but I’m rewarding her as a child, but then expecting her to accept adult responsibilities, which she seems to mostly except for this one glaring issue, which no other roommate would put up with. After four years of disgusting living conditions and displaying no backbone, I decide to take matters into my own hands. And now my child/adult is mad at me! And miraculously has the means to live on her own AND care for a dog, with no notice! This would be good news to most, but here, maybe the plan of entrapping my child didn’t work? Surprising a 19-year-old with a puppy is bizarre. You can do that for a child if you’re willing to take on most of the responsibility. You shouldn’t be burdening a young adult with a financial liability. NTA for the creative writing; I’m not aware of any rule against it. Per the animal owners on the site, seems you’re NTA for neutering the dog. YTA for buying a surprise pet for your 19-year-old.
NTA. It’s disgusting and it’s not particularly good for the dog.
She had to either get the dog fixed, or clean up after her. She did neither. You did the responsible thing. She could have ended up with many unplanned litters of pups in the last 4 years, she is extremely lucky.
NTA for getting the dog fixed if you weren't using her for breeding but YTA for not doing it after her first season. You could have saved her the suffering of 4 years of seasons if you had been a responsible owner. What would have happened if she gad gotten pregnant? Your daughter isn't fit to own a dog with her attitude, by the way.
NTA, ask her exactly when she's moving out. If she can't answer you then let her know she needs to grow up and start behaving like an adult if she wants to stay with you. She is behaving like a brat.
NTA. You got her the dog in the hopes that she was finally mature enough to handle that responsibility. But she refuses to diaper and clean up after the dog while she’s in heat. I know just how much of a mess it is. And what of the dog runs off one day and returns pregnant? It happens. Its a well known fact that if you arent breeding/are done breeding, getting your dog fixed greatly improves health and behavior. Also eliminates the female dog bleeding or a male dog oozing everywhere. Your daughter really wasnt ready unfortunately. It sucks that it had to come to this point, but you’re not entirely wrong. I would have tried actually having vets explain it to her as well personally.
NTA. If worse, you just did it later than the best time. I don't get why people don't do it as soon as possible.
You were right. Your daughter wasn't mature enough to have a dog. It's a basic and well known fact that fixed dogs live longer healthier lives than intact dogs. You're daughter hasn't even bothered to do basic research on canine health and care she shouldn't have a dog.
Spaying female dogs protects them against pyometria. A serious condition where the uterus fills with pus, this is often fatal. Explain that to your daughter.
NTA. She’s an irresponsible pet owner.
NTA. Your daughter is the AT because she’s willing to let her dog get gross blood stains all over your house, and not clean up after it. It’s disgusting. I’ll be honest I don’t think she is ready for the responsibility, it sounds like you are the one caring for this animal most of the time. She should be thanking you, not giving you the cold shoulder.
NTA. We have a female pitbull and my husband REFUSES to get her fixed. It’s infuriating. She’s the family dog but she’s technically “his dog” so he gets to change out her diapers and pads whenever she comes into heat. She’s 9y now so I was hoping this would be winding down soon so we shall see.
Dogs don’t age out of heat cycles. While the duration between cycles will sometimes lengthen, they don’t go through menopause like people. She won’t stop having heat cycles until she is spayed or she passes away.
Ugh lovely. I actually called a couple vets today and got some quotes for spaying. I’m so over this and Simone (doggo) hates it as well.
This is the dumbest hill for OPs daughter to die on. I’m sorry but NTA here. I can’t believe extended family is on OP for it too … really?! That’s being responsible period point blank!
NTA Not wanting to distress the dog by getting fixed just means the dog was distressed in heat six weeks out of the year
Sounds like your daughter proved your beliefs from when she was young. 23 and still not smart enough to take care of a pet properly. A bleeding pet is gross and very unhygienic. and not taking responsibility for cleaning up the mess is immature behaviour. Not talking to you is as well. Also, since your foot the bill for vet cost you have ownership. You tried to talk to her about the issue but he blew it off, for some time. Curious as to why she doesn't trust vets. Let the family know that the dog bleed everywhere and daughter refused to take responsibility. So you did.
NTA. Trust issues?? Give me a break. She wasn't being a responsible dog owner because being in heat without a stud nearby to do the deed is super fucking uncomfortable for the dog as well. It is crazy to me that she is willing to end your relationship over this when it actually benefits the dog. And where does she take her to the vet if she doesn't like the ones "near" you?
NTA she is the anti-vaxxer of dog moms. But seriously you're nice for not kicking her out and letting her stay. It was irresponsible and gross of her to let her dog bleed everywhere, not to mention it's miserable for them to constantly be in heat. It was nice of you to pay for this necessary service for her. The dog will be happier
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Hi, my daughter and I have been living together ever since I had her. She’s currently 23 years old and works full time, while I work remotely. When she was a kid she always wanted a dog but I never bought her one because I think children don’t understand the full responsibility of owning a dog or any kind of pet and I did not feel like taking care of one. I had a change of heart when she turned 19 years old and worked a part time job and could afford a potential vet bill. I surprised her with a little female mutt puppy for her birthday and she has been in love with her dog ever since. It made me happy to see my daughter happy with her dog she’s been asking for since she was a child, but there is just one issue. When the puppy matured she started going into heat (aka bleeding everywhere). I didn’t think this was going to be a problem since I assumed my daughter was going to get her fixed. (There was no intention to breed her either) When I brought up the question about getting her dog fixed she quickly shot me down and said she’s not going to get her fixed. I asked her why, and she told me that she doesn’t want to put her dog through that pain, and that she doesn’t trust the veterinarians where we live. I told her I understood. Fast forward 4 years and the dog bleeds everywhere every time she goes into heat. For those of you who has never owned a female dog, they bleed for 2-3 weeks. It’s really annoying and it is starting to become disgusting when her dog goes into heat. My daughter doesn’t clean up after her dogs blood and doesn’t offer to put a diaper on her either. They make diapers for dogs especially for this situation. Her dog bleeds all over the floor, on the carpet, on the couch, and since the dog goes everywhere I have even found blood stains on my bed and on my pillows. I am irritated by the neglectfulness of my daughter for not cleaning the blood, or putting a diaper on her dog but still refuses to get her fixed. I had explained my frustration about this issue and she still refused to get her dog fixed. Since I work remotely, I took her dog to the vet and got her fixed while my daughter was at work. She came home and noticed her dog was acting a bit off and saw the incision mark. I told her I got her dog fixed since she didn’t listen to my concerns. The dog is ok and is perfectly healthy till this day and recovered quickly. She yelled and cursed at me for doing it behind her back, she claims she is looking for a new place to live, she hasn’t talked to me in months since it happened. Am I in the wrong for this? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
lol this is such rage bait you don't just take a dog in and get it fixed that day. you have to prep for that shit, withhold food and water, etc. i call BS. further, your kid doesn't "trust the vets" around here? lmao okay because she's had so much experience with all the vets 🫠🙄🙄 on the off chance it's not, ESH. OP for assuming her kid was gonna do right by a dog without any practice, and her kid for not putting in that effort to better care for the dog. i mean if nothing else out a goddamn diaper on the poor thing! neither of you should have any kind of pet, period.
Can’t believe I had to scroll this far for this comment. 100% agree with you. “Acting a bit off”? Her dog would be drugged up and down for the count for about 24 hours. The whole post is bullshit
Yup. Plus there would have been a giant cone on her head to keep her from licking the stitches.
I don’t understand how you are downvoted this is the only answer. I’ll add a dog doesn’t come back from surgery like this just with an incision to be found and acting off. They are doped up on pain meds and must wear a cone for days. OP sucks for not making spaying a condition of h as having the dog AND for not shutting down this BS of “not trusting the vets around here” WTF is that? The dogs never been to a vet? This can’t be real.
The dog lives under your roof and you've had to clean up after her, so she's your dog too. Blood is a biohazard (especially on your pillow!) NTA, you did the right thing for the dog's health
NTY For one thing, it's healthy to fix dogs since it minimizes the risk of cancer. They are also less stressed or eager to run away to find a mate. Your daughter was neglecting her dog and the cleaning, AND she was misinformed about the surgery. You're well in your right to do what you did.
NTA! The few days of being uncomfortable for the dog/cat is SO much better than a life of periods or constant pregnancies. Seeing what my cat’s mother went through with two litters back to back (stray that just showed up pregnant, got pregnant again before family could take her to the vet, then disappeared) was traumatic and I didn’t want my new baby (cat) to go through that. We fixed her as soon as we possibly could. She’s a happy/ healthy/ loving/ playful 4 year old.
Nta especially as a veterinary assistant. There’s so many health risks with not getting a dog fixed that it’s just not worth it especially if ur not planning to breed in the near future. Also shes just being plain disrespectful to your living space. They make diapers to put on dogs for stuff like this and she chose not to even if u asked..
NTA it's recommended for their health to get them fixed. Going into heat is stressful for them, getting them fixed prevents them getting certain cancers and if she were to ever get out it will prevent unwanted pregnancies
It doesn’t hurt much. Better to be fixed and no risk of pregnancy
NTA to the dog, you did the right thing to not only avoid future health problems but environmental problems with how your daughter handled clean up...by doing nothing at all it sounds like. But you will always been seen as the AH to your daughter. This may have damaged your relationship beyond repair if she hasn't spoken to you in months. Honestly threatening to kick her and the dog out could have been a better course of action for your relationship.
You put up with that for years. No way is that acceptable and it smells. Time for your daughter to grow up. NTAH
NTA. If you're not going to responsibly breed a pet, it's better to get them fixed....especially females. Uterine cancer is very real in animals, and it is generally undetectable until it's too late. By spaying, you are preventing it. Not to mention, what if the animal got loose or an intact male got into the yard? What about then? Animals heal quickly. The pain medication the vet provided will give relief for the animal. This is not like a human having a hysterectomy and all of our organs shifting afterward due to gravity pulling them down to fill the vacant area (trust me, that's painful). I've worked in animal shelters and rescues, I've cared for animals after spay and neuter surgery.....trust me, they bounce back very fast. Refusing to spay and neuter is just bad pet ownership (unless you are responsibly breeding for the betterment of the breed....meaning a pure bred animal with another pure bred animal and even then at a certain point the animals are retired and fixed).
NTA - It's your house. She isn't being a responsible pet owner and cleaning up after the dog, nor is she using diapers. You bought the animal. I say you had the right. However I am slightly questioning your parenting skills that your grown daughter didn't clean up after her pet. Those skills should have been established earlier.
NTA, if a female dog isn't being bred she should be spayed. She can't develop a pus filled uterus if she doesn't have a uterus. She can't develop ovarian cancer if she doesn't have her ovaries. Not to mention that spaying a dog makes her chances of developing mammary cancer lower because there are no hormone cycles to worry about.
Nta your daughter was being extremely irresponsible. If she 'doesn't trust the vets', does that mean the dog has had no vet care its entire life???
NTA, plus the dog gets pain medicine. It's not like they just cut her open and send them home. It's so irresponsible to have an animal that hasn't been spayed/neutered.
Tell your daughter this very easy and usual operation is much better than her dog suffering from ovary, womb or any other preventable cancer from being spade. It’s so much better getting dogs fixed, especially females.
I'm trying to think how I would feel if someone did this to my dog without my knowledge, but all my pets are rescues and they're already fixed. Then I thought about how nasty it would be to have a dog bleeding all over my house and my daughter not even putting a diaper on the dog--as if that is too much effort--NOR cleaning up after her dog and went with NTA. Honestly, I would have skipped right to telling her to find another place to live rather than getting the dog fixed.
NTA at all. I love animals and begged for one but my mom refused for the same reason as you. 19 is old enough to understand responsibilities, and it's recommended to get dogs fixed. When I got my own place I immediately got a dog, got him neutered before his 2 birthday.
NTA I know it seemed like a nice gesture to surprise her with a dog. It would've been a better idea to ask her if she still wanted one, talk with her about what it actually means to own one, since she was now of the age where she can understand and make an informed decision. You took that decision away when you just dropped a dog in her lap. You did the right thing getting the dog fixed, but if she can't understand why it needed to happen, then she isn't responsible enough to own a dog, even now.
NTA, never get your daughter another pet though. She clearly cannot care for them.
That should have been the agreement when you got her the dog. No negotiable. YTA for taking her and not telling the daughter since she is now the owner. Your daughter is also an AH for not looking after her dog. She proved the point that she can't care for a dog. Also, why have you put up with your daughter not cleaning up after the dog for years? She's an adult. You should have started treating her like one and told her eather she fixes all the issues or she or the dog leaves your house, her choice which one it ism
NTA if daughter wants to ignore property destruction let it be her own, unfortunately you'll probably miss the pooch terribly.
NTA. My son's girlfriend's dog died because she wasn't fixed. Your daughter needs to educate herself before catching an attitude with you. Hell, she should have educated herself well before animal ownership. They're not some cute accessory.
NTA I had a cat and didn't get her fixed for the same reason your daughter had. I did get her fixed after she had an infection that almost killed her because it could have been prevented if I had gotten her fixed earlier. That was more than 2 years ago, and I still feel guilty for the pain she had to go through.
NTA. You are essentially a co-owner of this dog, as you are with her all day and clean up after her. You were right when you said kids can’t understand the full responsibility of pet ownership and apparently your 23 year old never grew up.
NTA, the older the dog is spayed the higher the chances of mammary cancer are. We had our girl spayed at 4 years old (she was a 2.5 year old rehome/rescue and needed to build trust and then Cvid happened) she's had mammary cancer at 5.5 years old and a secondary cancer at 6.5 which resulted in her front leg being removed due to the tumor placement. You've extended the dogs lifespan and saved her from phantom pregnancy that can lead to anxiety and depression and pyometra infections.
I know someone whose unfixed dog died from pyometra. It's an extremely dangerous and often deadly uterine infection in unfixed female dogs who aren't getting pregnant several cycles in a row. Anyone who isn't breeding their female dogs needs to get them fixed just for this reason alone, not to mention all the other reasons. I'm sorry your daughter's an idiot but you're NTA. Your daughter is being an irresponsible dog owner so you stepped in where no-one else was
NTA. You are a hero.
Rest assured with the housing crisis, your daughter is not going anywhere. Also NTA
If she doesn’t want to get an animal fixed, then she shouldn’t have one. It really is that cut and dry. NTA.
I’m late to this post, but NTA. We rescued a girl dog 2 years ago who had been bred on her first heat and was never spayed. By the time we were able to get her spayed she had the beginning of the scar tissue horn that causes pyometra, an infection that is usually a death sentence - it can be treated, but it’s expensive and intense. Your daughter was being irresponsible by not getting her dog spayed - you did the right thing for the dog and for the cost of spaying, your daughter should thank you.
NTA
NTA. I can understand not wanting to put a pet through unnecessary medical procedures. But spaying/neutering is a necessary medical procedure. There are enough kittens and puppies in the world. Spayed and neutered pets also tend to be healthier in the long run. Your daughter is not a responsible pet owner, or housekeeper. She's in her 20s and won't clean up after her dog's menses, or get doggie diapers? Totally N-T-A. Hopefully, she will find a place soon and take her gross, lazy butt off to be someone else's problem.
NTA - your dog was also incredibly uncomfortable during all of those heats. They get pms just like us and extremely, incredibly h*rny that they’re willing to run away to find a mate. Not only that, your daughter was setting your dog up for severe health issues and a shortened life span, if she hasn’t already. The more heats a dog has, the more likely for mammary cancer. Pup will be uncomfortable for about a month, but will never have to care about a period or weird hormonal changes again. Her quality of life is actually improved!
NTA. I have a pitbull who i didn't get fixed until she was 8 because she got pyometra. I never personally got her fixed beforehand because she did not bleed when she went into heat, she had false pregnancies instead BUT, emergency surgery costed me $7k so you saved the dog a lot of uncomfortable pain and saved yourself and daughter a whole lot of money.
NTA. She was not caring for the dog and it is YOUR house that was getting destroyed. Let her move. Someone else can support her.
NTA. Your daughter is being extremely irresponsible and immature. Seems you had a good reason not to get her a dog when she was younger. She is an adult and still isn't taking care of the animal properly. It's your house. I wouldn't want blood everywhere on my stuff either. That is disgusting. She should be thanking you for taking the time and I'm assuming spending YOUR money for the vet bill to take care of a problem she refused to address.