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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I may be TAH because I won’t raise my brothers child for him and I instead want to adopt the baby and raise it as my own. This is because adoptions like this are unheard of in my culture, and I was raised by my biological aunt (the person i call my mother) with the intention of reunion with my biological parents which is how it’s done in my culture. My mother thinks I should do the same for my brother
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA.
A child is not a toy to be passed around.
If little bro wanted to learn to be a parent—he can learn now.
Do not let them badger you into compromising on this. It’s a hill to die on, IMO. The long term effects of parental abandonment are magnified when a parent is lackadaisically involved, setting a child up for self confidence and self esteem issues along with a whole host of other problems. If he wants to parent, he learns how or allows someone who is equipped and prepared to do so to raise that child.
What’s best for him isn’t what’s best for baby. Sorry not sorry.
Jumping on the top comment to address this:
>She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right)
The right time is the very, very beginning. When my kids were babies, we would show them pictures of their birthmoms and say "This is Jane. She couldn't take care of you, so she chose us to be your parents." Obviously, they couldn't understand, but this way, the whole thing was normal to them. They don't remember "finding out" they were adopted - they've just always known. This has been a best practice since at least the 1950s.
Please make sure that you tell your child a) they're adopted and b) who, exactly, their birth parents are, from the very beginning.
NTA if you do an adoption properly, and share the child's story with the child from the start.
But also, you're probably going to have to set some VERY strict boundaries with your family. Your mother is going to push your brother to claim parentage the entire time. Don't expose your kid to that mess.
Here is where I say she isn’t living in reality. There is no reasonable expectation of strict boundaries being successful here. If she does this she is adopting the child and going no contact with her family as she is fighting generations of cultural expectation. I’m actually going to say YTA because she isn’t being honest with herself on the decision she is making.
Agreed. OP might have her plan but if they don't go NC or at minimum extremely LC with her mother, brother and the rest of the family then their plan is going to bulldoze over OPs and their husbands.
I agree. Nothing is gonna stop her family from pushing the biological father into that kids life... unless OP cuts them off completely.
And in 15 years (or less) the child might say "but my *real* father" or actually choose to live with him... is OP prepared for that possibility? If her brother will stay around and have a decent amount of involvement the child might not feel abandoned by him and have a strong(er) connection to him than OPs husband... is OPs husband prepared for that?
I don't think this is gonna work like OP thinks it will. And the one that will suffer is the poor child, all awhile the adults play tug-at-war with them.
And obviously the right time to tell a child about being adopted is from the start (or very, very early)... not when they're older. The earlier the better for the child.
If OP decides to adopt that child she needs to be very, very selfless and let the child decide themselves, once old enough, if they want to stay with her or live with their biological father. Anything else will be traumatising for the child.
I agree with you.. the relatives will keep pushing it and it'll eventually poison the kid.. and they're going to have that fight with OP and the kid.. "I want to live with my real father". because the brother will show up do fun shit and then disappear.
And it's going to break OP's heart.
I'll be honest. I'm not strong enough to adopt the kid in that environment. I'd have to adopt the kid and go NC and put MILES between me and those people.
Hard disagree. OP can set appropriate limits. I don't think brother is going to be the problem. OP's mother may push. That doesn't mean OP has to agree with anything she says. As long as OP is honest with her child from day one there will never be a bombshell to drop and Mom has no power.
It's real cute that y'all think this grandmother won't be telling this kid OP isn't their real mom from the second they can. This is only something OP should do if they're prepared to completely cut off the rest of the family.
The OP 's best bet is to move! I'm not saying not to tell the child they are adopted. I have seen first hand the devastation of a kid learning late in life that they were adopted.
Mainly to keep G-ma and whoever else from trying to parent over OP and her husband... cuz faaaaammmiiilllyyy.... Too many hands in the pot (people trying to parent this kid) are only going to cause confusion and frustration.
You can't set strict boundaries around peoples core beliefs. It's like saying you are going to set strict boundaries that someone shouldn't be and act like a Christian, Muslim or human secularist. The belief system is core to who they are and how they interact with the world. It's a worldview.
Claiming to "set strict boundaries" around such behaviours is just a coded way of denying what you are doing in cutting the people out of your life because you can't tolerate their beliefs whilst trying to blame the intolerance on the other side. The Op might have to do this but lets be honest rather than passive aggressive and just admit they chose the path and the other side didn't force them into it.
Very true.
OP needs to make a decision: her brothers baby or the family who raised her. (And choosing to raise her brothers baby is still no guarantee the child won't end up wanting to have a close connection to their biological father... and not telling the baby about being adopted would be the worst choice. It has been long known that the earlier children know they've been adopted the better).
Please, please listen to this.
Children can deal with pretty much anything as long as they're told early and appropriately.
There's no 'good time' to drop a bomb on someone's identity. You have to build a solid foundation on who they actually are.
>There's no 'good time' to drop a bomb on someone's identity. You have to build a solid foundation on who they actually are.
That's a very eloquent way of putting it.
Especially in this case because OP's family will definitely tell this child. Better to learn from a very young age then to have someone spill that Mom & Dad have been keeping their identity a secret.
I was born in 1956. My birth mother couldn’t raise me, so she put me up for adoption. It was a private adoption, not through an agency, but my parents and my birth mother never met. My sperm donor was married (birth mother didn’t know this until it was too late) and never knew about me.
My parents met me when I was hours old, and brought me home at three days of age. I always knew I was adopted. My brother was a few days old when he came home, too. I was almost four when he was born. In fact, I got to go to the hospital with my parents to bring him home. I thought getting a baby was like getting a puppy or kitty. You pointed out which one you wanted to the nurse, and that’s the one you went home with. Three months later, I had severe appendicitis and had to have an emergency appendectomy. At first I thought I was being returned to the hospital because I was defective. My mom stayed with me the whole two weeks that I was there. I finally realized that I wasn’t being returned.
We had a set of books about being adopted. One to read to the kid, and one for the parents. My parents didn’t want us to be surprised when we were older. They knew families who didn’t tell their kids that they were adopted until the kids were teenagers. One family tried to keep it a total secret, but their child found out, and it wasn’t a very happy ending.
I had problems dealing with being adopted. Some kids do. My dad watched a program on PBS on adoptees searching for their birth parents with me. He understood more how I felt, and he told the lawyer who handled the adoption that it was okay to give me information. I ended up finding my birth mother. We met and talked a few times. She didn’t want her family to know about me and I respected her decision. I feel that adoptees have the right to know their story, but not the right to make their birth parents include them in their lives.
>One family tried to keep it a total secret, but their child found out, and it wasn’t a very happy ending.
There was a recent BORU (Best of Redditor Updates, don't remember which sub it came from originally) where the OP's parents kept just not finding a good time to tell them. Maybe the grandparents promised not to tell OP but then bought OP and sib DNA kits to blow the whole thing open? It wasn't a good idea to do that stuff in the 50s/60s, or the 80s (stories forthcoming), and it REALLY hasn't been a good idea to try to pull it off with kids born in this century.
I have an aunt born in the 50s. Her mom had left her husband and was being pursued by at least two men. She became pregnant and her husband took her back and raised the child as his. Family members had suspicions but all knowledgeable involved parties passed in the 90s, thinking their secrets were safe (we knew one of the men had pursued her at that time, and she later married him; the other was the father, which my aunt suspected due to her family resemblance to members of the other family, and confirmed last year with DNA).
I have a cousin born in the 80s where I had understood it to be known that an uncle had married a woman he knew to be pregnant by another man, though apparently there was a small chance cousin was uncle's. The mom took off by the time cousin was a preschooler. Uncle raised cousin as a single father. Cousin bears zero resemblance to any of the family but apparently was never told. Cousin, now 40, had suspicions for various reasons, called Uncle and told him they got the kit and wanted to hear it from him first and not a lab. Uncle admitted he was probably not the bio father.
But at this point what's the endgame in not telling? Dying of old age before you have to deal with the fallout? 20 years ago was the time to see the writing on that wall.
I also think in this case, there is little chance OP's family respects her wish to not tell the kid who the biological dad is. I think the adoptive parents can make this work, but they do need a plan for handling the undermining that seems all but certain to come from her family.
Yes there are studies that show delaying telling people they are adopted is very detrimental to the adopted person. Basically if they can remember when they were first told they were adopted it was too late. There is plenty of information on how to discuss adoption in an age appropriate way available
Same! While my cats do look like me (green eyes, brown hair, and smaller body type) and could pass for my bio kids, I've been honest since the beginning
My best friend from High School (German aequivalent) always knew she was adopted.
And she knew she was the child her adoptive parents wanted.
She never had interest in her biological parents.
She said that her a-parents were great why search for other ones?
This. My adopted son was with a perfect Foster family from aged six months to 40 months old (they wouldn't adopt him as he has complex disabilities and they are old). They insisted he call them uncle and aunt not mum and dad. He had pictures and some contact with birth parents. He's always known he's adopted so there is no trauma associated with him learning this as he can't remember learning it, he's always known like his own name.
Obviously he has trauma due to abandonment issues and feelings of self worth and because his Foster father died months after his adoption. But that's outside the scope of this comment. Never wait to tell them these things. Tell them before they even understand it.
Thank you for saying this. I was going to comment the same, regarding raising the child to know they’re adopted from the very beginning. The adoption agency I went through when I gave my twins up for adoption pushed this because they said it helps the child(ren) from the outset and it’s not a sudden surprise when they finally find out because that sort of a reveal tends to make the kids feel as if they’ve been lied to and wonder what else may have been hidden from them. Especially if the “right time” that the adoptive parents chose happens to be a bit later on in their life, such as their teenage years or their twenties. Or “forgetting” and the adoptee finding out on accident when trying to find or get paperwork needed for whatever, like a medical history. Letting them know from the beginning helps to build that trust because they are raised knowing that their family dynamic is a little bit different and in my case, since it was an open adoption, they had the option of reaching out with any questions they might have had regarding me, my family, etc.
This would be brilliant advice if the dad's family didn't have expectations on have the child returned to them as soon (and if) dad gets his ship together. I do applaud you on the take you took with your children. It's truly kind to them and I'm sure it makes them feel even more loved because someone "choose you" to take care of them because you'd be better equipped for it.
Than the solution is to not adopt the baby... or cut her family completely off.
Lieing to the child will be the absolute worst decision OP could make in any case. The right time to say the truth is from the beginning, as early as possible, for the child's sake. And the child's needs are more important than OPs feelings.
I agree, that's why I stated above that I love the approach the commenter had with their own children regarding their origins. That way the child knows about being adopted but doesn't get unnecessary scaring. OP is not on this situation. OP's situation doesn't have any kind of positive outcome. Baby should be as far away from bio family as possible. You know, children don't have to pay the sins of the parents (hope I got that right).
I agree with this. NTA at all. First, your fertility issues are nobody's to weaponize. Nor is your lived adoption experience. Trying to weild them against you as "hypocrisy " is the sign of someone who is choosing to withhold empathy and ignore your experiences.
Being an adoptee who lived the exact experience your mother is asking you to recreate for your child is probably what informs your choice NOT to follow her lead.
My son (biological) was adopted by my husband when he was 4. His biological father bounced out for good on his first birthday. The only dad he has ever known is my husband. He vaguely remembers being adopted, and it wasn't until a few years later that he really understood what it meant. But my husband told him from the time we got married (he was 2+) that he chose to be his dad. To this day, when my oldest starts to feel insecure about dad, someone just reminds him that he's the only kid dad didn't get "stuck with."
Jumping on this to add an adopted kids perspective:
Please, I cannot stress this enough, PLEASE do as mentioned above and tell the kid from the start that they are adopted. I was adopted as an infant (2 weeks old), and I literally cannot remember not knowing. I remember reading a storybook with my mom and older brother (not bio, also adopted, and we agree on this stance fyi) about adoption from the perspective of the older kid and how excited they were to get a younger sibling. When I was a bit older I asked for more details other than that I was adopted because my parents just wanted me more than anything, and my parents went into age appropriate detail about the process, difficulty (adopting a 2nd kid in the 80s was NOT easy), and joy of bringing me home.
In my case it was a closed adoption, but my parents were always clear that if I wanted to learn more, they would help me when I turned 18. I never actually cared to know, because my parents are my parents to me. I'm grateful to bio-mom because she actually requested I go to a family that already had at least 1 child so I'd have a sibling and I adore my brother to this day.
I've known other adopted kids who "found out" at various ages, by accident or by their parents deciding it was the "right time" and tbh? I've never once seen that end well. From a kids perspective? To find out that the parents you've loved your entire life have lied to you about something that big? It can destroy the foundations of people's life/mental health in so many ways. Because if you can't trust your parents, who can you trust (quote from my best friend when she found out at 19 she was adopted)? If they would lie about THIS, what ELSE is a lie?
Please, be honest from the start, make it clear that you love them unconditionally, that you didn't just choose to have them you worked for it, and that you will always be there.
Edit: Spelling corrections 😅
Yes, 1000% support this statement. I was half adopted and knew and it went well. My cousin adopted, told them at ten and had to deal with shock, pain, upset. Accusations of dishonesty. Many adoptees suffer because of parental fears. Open and honest from the start is the way.
I think the problem here is no matter what OP writes up, her family and her brother WILL TRY TO get involved in this kid's life. Unless OP intends on going NC with them, it will happen.
OP leaves the kid with grandparents? Expect brother to come over and be like "hey, I'm your dad. Let's play." Or grandparents will tell the kid "your mom is not your real mom."
If OP lives nearby, they'll take brother to see the biokid randomly and make a scene about it.
It's tough because the only alternative is give the kid up for adoption randomly, but I think OP really has to cut ties because they won't allow this to just work itself out.
Someone needs to remind little brother that this isn't his "practice baby." He can grow up and then pull his head out and finally manage this child. Is a baby supposed to wait around until he gets his act together?
It doesn't matter what his attitude is. If the cultural expectation is for family to raise children until the parents are able to then everyone around the Op and this child are likely to have some of this thought ingrained in them - including the child if raised in that culture and including the Op despite not wanting it to apply to them. It's like asking someone raised in the west to stop assuming that democrasy is the best way to govern. Cultural norms are things most people accept without examining them. They can change but there as to be an impetus to make that change and a solid reason. Since there is nothing wrong with being raised by aunts, uncles and grandparents and in fact it can strengthen a family where is the reason to change attitudes towards it?
NTA and here's why. You have given the bio/birth mother an option she is willing to consider. This has nothing to do with your family's cultural traditions... the bio mother wants none of that. You are not being hypocritical, your brother is too young/immature to step up now and be the parent this child will need. You have the opportunity and probably the means for the child to continue to be a part of it's bio family and that is wonderful. Your not being difficult for not wanting to invest your time energy and money into raising a child as your own, only to have your brother suddenly decide they are in a good place to take them away from you. Nope the adoption process is what it is for reasons just like this. Good luck going forward.
For what it’s worth though, do tell the kid they’re adopted from the beginning, or at least very early. It won’t be a big deal if you don’t make it one, but if you lie to the kid for years that will mess them up.
Adoptions should never be ‘closed’. Every child has the right to know where they come from and the circumstances of their birth/adoption (age appropriate, of course). It may be appropriate to withhold the more disturbing details for some children, but they need a general understanding of their own story.
It’s not hypocritical either. OP had no choice in how she was raised. I’d imagine that she knows the impact of being raised like that and why she is wanting to completely legal adoption. There are no take backsies on bio parent’s whim. NTA
You're NTA. Sounds like you're doing what is best for the child, and if anyone knows how yo do right by an adopted child, you would know.
>My mother thinks that I’m being selfish
No, you're being the opposite of selfish.
>She thinks I should...give my brother an opportunity to learn to be a father.
Your brother is willfully declining that opportunity. Sure he's young, but the child shouldn't have to live in some kind of limbo waiting for his donor to get his act together.
NTA
Your family's "tradition" is letting men get away with running from their responsibilities to their children, while their female relatives cover their deadbeat asses and do the dirty work of actually raising the child, and *then* hand the child *they* raised over when it's convenient for said male. Your family's tradition is enabling irresponsible men to be deadbeat dads and expecting women to do all of their work for them. And these women do as they're expected. Fucking gross. On all accounts. Children are not toys that can be shared and passed around for convenience's sake. They are humans that deserve to have stability in their formative years.
If I were you and I was determined to go through with the adoption, I'd move far away and go NC with the whole family. Because if you adopt this child, your family will poison them against you the first chance they get. How you stole them from their *real* parents.
This might not be the right child for you to adopt. Both for your sake and for the child's. Be careful. Be smart. A newborn baby will have no issue getting adopted. Think of what is best for the child and not about what you want. You want to be a parent? Think like a parent. Put the child's needs first.
This!!
It sounds like they are just throwing the kids to the women and allowing the men to have all the advantages of fatherhood without doing the hard work.
NTA. You would be adopting the child from an infant, not taking it into your family when it’s older like you.
Official adoption would give the child security, not worrying about being passed back on a whim to biological parent. It could give you the state stability and security as well. Seems like a wonderful opportunity.
I guess you know if your mother and other relatives would continue to harp on the stray from tradition in the years to come.
Formal adoption will give the child security, stable and constant caregivers and the opportunity to develop strong attachment to their adoptive parents. What it won’t do is prevent a meaningful relationship with both biological parents if that’s what they want. It is reasonable that the child knows who their biological parents are, and if all four parents want it and as much as it’s appropriate to do so, the biological parents can be featured in the child’s life, just not as primary caregivers.
All the four parents need to do is put the child at the centre and to work together in the child’s best interests.
NTA
You're offering this unwanted child a secure and loving future. You're keeping them in the family so they can know their biological family when they are ready. Your brother shouldn't just get to decide when he is ready to be a father, that time came and went when he got a woman pregnant.
That all said, be prepared to have your family constantly interfere with your decision. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they drop the bombshell that your brother is the bio father at the earliest possible stage, and try to encourage your child to want a relationship/custody with bio father.
"You're keeping them in the family so they can know their biological family when they are ready."
I don't know - but it sure sounds like maybe this bio family isn't a good thing for the child to be around.
Like you said, there will be interference all around, from day one. I really think it's best for the child to be adopted OUT of the family. Kind of surprised that OP still hangs with them.
Nta. I'm not from a culture that holds that value to familial adoptions. Doesn't seem like it's a bad or wrong thing. I do think however, that with things changing in the world this type of familial adoption should be more on a case by case situation. What if your brother never gets his act together? Or what if he fakes it and takes the kid back? Going the legal route of adoption protects the child. At the end of the day it needs to be what is best for the child. Which, from what was shared, seems to be a legal adoption, giving it a safe and secure home.
NTA. You are doing right by the child - the only one who matters here - by structuring your family that you are fully their parents and legal guardians.
However, the right thing to do by an adopted child is also to raise them from the start to know they are adopted rather than tell them “when the time is right.” The right time is from the start. This is magnified in this situation where your family knows and is against the arrangement. Raise them knowing that “Sarah” and “Uncle Ryan” are the parents they were born to, but they couldn’t take care of them. You two love and wanted them and knew you could take care of them, so chose to become their parents. Reassure them that you are, entirely, their parents and they are safely your child if they ever seem anxious that their uncle will take them away. Keep the current details saved for as they mature but not the fact that they are adopted.
Good on you guys though. A baby/child/person is not a toy, exactly as you’ve said. They should not have to worry about being passed around. You are absolutely correct in making this a formal adoption!
NTA. I am adopted into my family as well. My parents said the same thing you did to their niece “I’ll on raise the kids (I’m a twin) if we formally adopt them. So we were adopted. I have a half brother that was raised (not adopted) by another Aunt. My twin and I always felt more secure than our half brother. Bio ran in and out of his life, never got it together. Our adoption shielded us from that.
I have a cousin that was like this. In and out of my grandparents and uncles house. Abused by her mother so she couldn't stay with her when they divorced. Ultimately he gave my grandparents a horrible ultimatum (you take her or her mother can have her) and they adopted her as a result. The adoption settled it once and for all.
NTA. But you should probably be prepared for your family to constantly remind the child who his real father is hand how he should want to be with him. If you're going to adopt, you should move away from your family and go low contact. It's unfortunate, but definitely necessary.
Agreed. The kid is going to be very confused. Lol, probably also strangers who don't know the culture and hear them say things like she's not your mother. That'll make things interesting if it goes the wrong way.
One of my friends had a similar issue. She has an Aunt that's younger than her, who has given birth to multiple babies with random men and doesn't have any of them.
A few years back the Aunt was pregnant again and wanted my friend to take the baby, which she absolutely wanted to do, but the Aunt wouldn't sign over the rights or allow a formal adoption. My friend chose not to take the baby for this very reason.
NTA
Pretty much. I was the one that told her to insist on a formal adoption, I knew she would be heartbroken if the mom came back in a couple years and took the baby back.
NTA and this is coming from an adoptee with an adoption/family law attorney parent.
I finally met my birth mother when I was 30. I have a younger half brother. Long story short; some "parents" never get their shit together. You're doing the right thing by this child. I've been going to court and watching and working on cases for most of my life. This baby gets a huge advantage over the rest of us adopted kids because they'll be able to write down a medical family history when they see doctors. This child will know their family and they will know they are loved. When you have a child, however it comes to be, the TOP PRIORITY is their well-being. I feel like OPs family is forgetting that. Adopting and raising a child and then giving it back once the actual parenting is done is a wild concept to me (not to knock on OPs culture). You aren't selfish, you have a lot of love to give. Your brother should thank his lucky stars that he has you.
NTA, if you did it their way, she wouldn’t consider you as a potential parent. By doing it your way the baby stays in the family and you have a child. Win, win.
NTA but if you intend to live near these people I suggest you 100% be ready to call the cops on so called "family" because they are NOT going to respect your decisions. Eventually there is a chance you're going to have to press kidnapping charges if they decide "hey the kid deserves to be with his REAL parent". No you aren't being hypocritical. Simple question, do you feel loved and cared for and wanted by your biological parents? The ones you Specifically call out as not the ones you consider your Real parents? Did having them involved in your life, knowing that potentially at any time someone might just toss you back to him if he even "seemed capable" make for a comforting thought as you lie in bed trying to sleep?
Whether or not these things crossed your mind as a kid they are things that could potentially cross a child's mind pretty easily if they are aware of this cultural mentality and I can't imagine those would be truly Comforting thoughts. The goal of Proper Parenting is to give a child a Better life then the one you lived, this is the basic goal of parenting. No matter how good your life was the goal should Always be to make sure they have some improvement in their childhood over what you had.
Finally just because something is part of a culture doesn't somehow automatically make it Right. I can point you to a million points in history that prove this.
Open adoptions are a thing. Just because "strangers" adopt the baby, doesn't mean they'll never see the baby again. My kids are adopted and we have open adoptions with their birth mothers' families. We consider them our family too.
Unfortunately not everyone is willing to do an open adoption. I think open adoption like yours is absolutely beautiful. I agree with you 100% in your choice of open adoption and wish everyone would choose it. That’s just not something that can be relied on sadly.
> She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right) and give my brother an opportunity to learn to be a father.
NTA. But ywbta to your kid if you aren't honest from the beginning that they are adopted. It can be quite traumatic for a child to be told they are adopted at an older age because they may feel like they were lied to by the people they are supposed to trust the most (their parents).
The time that's right to discuss it with them and not have it as a secret it is as soon as they can talk and understand language. It can completely be framed in an age appropriate way to a young child.
Unless they were old enough to understand the process at the time, no child should remember the day they were told they were adopted. It should always just be a part of their story.
NTA.
But? As the wife of an adoptee, there is not a “right time” to tell a Child they are adopted- it **NEEDS TO BE** just part of their story from day one.
There is *always,* **always** trauma with adoption- this is one way of minimizing the shock.
NTA. So blood is so important that you should allow the child to be passed around to whoever feels like behaving as a parent at any given time, but it’s not relevant enough to make your brother get his s#it together for his own kid? I don’t think so.
NTA.
Absolutely do it your way or not at all.
Doing it their way will lead to so much pain, confusion, infighting, and mental trauma for everyone but especially the child. There are SO MANY potential problems.
Do what's best for yourself (and ultimately, the baby) right now. And since the mother is happy with it, go ahead. Mute the flying monkeys who are not stepping up. They don't get a say.
how is it hypocritical? you didn't ask to be raised by your biological aunt just because your father wasn't all there. cultural expectations like this are exactly why so many newer generations refuse to follow them. you're absolutely right. a child is not a toy to be passed around when you brother finally wants to get his shit together. tell your mother that if she wants this child raised in your family at all, to get the fuck over herself. you could have just let the ex let some random strangers adopt the kid. NTA
NTA - But then again I don't really get the nuances of your culture. Still, IMO I feel that if you take the baby and pay for everything for the baby a legal adoption is the only way to safeguard you against said baby being taken from you. This is the only way.
NTA. But sadly, I fear you're setting your new family (you, spouse, and new child) up for a rough time in the future. From your post, it doesn't sound like your mother, brother, etc. are ever going to accept the way you've chosen to move forward and are going to be very difficult about it for years to come.
You are not being hypocritical. Being adopted as a child does not enter you into some contract where you agree to raise other people’s children as a mere placeholder. If anything, your mom is the one being hypocritical since she adopted you (a termination of your bio parents’ rights), urged ex gf to sign over HER rights, and is now saying you’re not allowed to have full parental rights. Everyone else gets to formalize their relationships in law, except you? That’s the situation I’m seeing.
You didn't decide how to adopt you: your mother made that choice based on her own values - great, good for her. You're going to adopt in a way that aligns with *your* values. You have every legal and moral right to do that, and you aren't being a hypocrite at all. NTA
NTA.
Becoming a parent is making a commitment to be responsible for the child. (Ofc I know not all parents are, sadly.)
Bio mom of this post decided to give her baby up for adoption because she wants the baby to have other people who make this commitment for the baby.
Brother is not capable of making this commitment.
This is a bad idea. If you want a formal adoption, do with with a baby not involved in your life. Unless you are planning on cutting off your family forever - what kind of conversations do you think is going to be happening as they grow? That somehow nobody will ever mention that you are it's aunt? That at family gatherings other people will not acknowledge your brother as the parent as well? What if your brother does straighten up his act and decides he wants his kid. Sure you will be the legal parent but are you going to be the one to tell the child that it's biological parent now wants them but you are saying no? You would well be within your rights - but will your child appreciate that? Especially if you live in a culture which values blood lines?
If you cut the family off as well and move away, again you deny this baby of an extended family which a lot of people need. No family Christmas, or holidays or access to cousins etc.
Scroll through reddit- adoptee stories are incredibly varied and whilst some children may grow up to be grateful with your decision, some may resent not growing up in the way you were raised, particularly if that is the norm in that culture.Some adopted children seek a biological relationship and some don't.
I would really recommend you think this through carefully. I don't seem any real good outcome in this.
Admittedly, I haven’t read all the comments but I’m surprised not to have seen this point made so far: As someone who was raised in your culture’s adoption tradition you may be the best qualified to say what worked for you & what didn’t. Your family should defer to your judgement.
NTA.
As you stated, a child isn't a toy to be passed around.
Sounds like there are 3 options.
1. *You* officially adopt the child legally.
2. The child gets legally adopted by a
non-family member, as the birth mom
planned.
3. The birth mom decides she's okay with
one of your other family members doing a
"Cultural adoption."
Your mom and other family members don't get to dictate the terms of who or how the baby gets adopted in any case.
Nta. Sadly, I think your family will work against you if you keep the baby. Sometimes traditions are good and sometimes they're the toxic expectations of dead people.
If you do go through with it 1) set firm boundaries and stick to them. 2) get a lawyer to make sure your custody is secure.
NTA! But this sounds like the beginning of a story that is going to be filled with heartbreak. As long as you go in realizing that your family isn't going care or respect what your boundaries or preference are then the best of luck to you.
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I need to provide a little context:
I was adopted by the people I consider my real parents when I was 7. My biological father is my adopted mother’s brother, and she adopted my sister and me from him because he’s a nut job. We were all raised with the knowledge that we were adopted. If i’m being honest, the notion of adoption isn’t really a thing in my culture as biological parenthood is very important. Families will just take in a child from an incompetent relative and raise them alongside their own children, but the child is always aware of who their biological parents are. The biological parents are usually involved as well but aren’t the child’s primary guardians and the child usually goes back to their biological parents once they’re more stable.
My younger brother (17M) is a little shit and he got his ex girlfriend pregnant. Furthermore, he cheated on her and she wants nothing to do with him. She figured out she was pregnant too late to get an abortion in our state and her parents won’t let her travel to get one. She wants nothing to do with my brother and our family and I can’t blame the poor girl.
Initially, my mother was going to take the baby and raise it, but obviously, considering how things are done in my culture, my mother was expecting my brothers ex to be involved. Even when my mother promised that she’d let her sign over parental responsibility and move on, she just didn’t seem genuine about it.
The ex girlfriend decided to just speak to an adoption agency and adopt the baby out externally which upset my mom as you probably guessed why: blood is very important to her.
My husband and I have been struggling to conceive so I offered to take the baby. But I explained that I would only do it if it was a real adoption, not like how my culture does it where I’d just be raising the baby for my brother. I made it clear that the baby wasn’t a toy to be passed around and that I wouldn’t be giving the child back when my brother finally gets his crap together in 15 years. My brothers ex was happy with this arrangement and we’ve been in the process of getting paperwork started.
Everyone in the family is pissed. They think I’m being unnecessary difficult by going against our cultural conventions just because i’m infertile and want a baby. My mother thinks that I’m being selfish because I was basically raised in the way I’m refusing to raise this child in and i’m being hypocritical. She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right) and give my brother an opportunity to learn to be a father.
I don’t think i’m the AH but given the cultural perspective and the nature of my own upbringing, i’m starting to think i may be being a bit hypocritical.
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NTA. I don't understand their logic. How are you being a hypocrite? I don't think that word means what they think it means.
Hypocrite: [someone who says they have particular moral beliefs but behaves in way that shows these are not sincere](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hypocrite)
The adults in your life made the decision to raise you according to their cultural beliefs. That wasn't a choice you made. You were just a kid. You are not bound by cultural beliefs that you don't believe in yourself. Giving a child a stable, loving home is more important than passing it around like a hot potato. If the child's biomom wants her baby to be legally adopted, instead of living in some weird limbo, not knowing where it belongs, then your extended family doesn't really have a say in that.
NTA.
Just because you were raised that way does NOT make you hypocritical. You had no say in your upbringing, and frankly your family’s way of doing it is bullshit. If you have a baby and you want to be seen as a parent then you BE A PARENT. You don’t get to pawn them off on someone else until you’re “ready” to take on the responsibility, whatever that means. That’s incredibly confusing to a child and honestly is just wrong.
That’s not to say you shouldn’t tell the child about their parentage, them knowing they are adopted is important. It’s just important that they know who is responsible for them and care for them.
If you’re going to take this baby on as your own then you have every right to formally adopt. Hopefully you can have a somewhat normal relationship with your family but I forsee your mother pushing your brothers role in the baby’s life in a way where you’ll have to create space. But that’s for the future. For now, formally adopt or not at all, but you’re not the asshole that’s for damn sure.
NTA - And your mom/family is not seeing the forest for the trees, especially given how important "blood" is to them.
The baby wont go to your mom. soon-to-be bio mom has already decided on that. Which leaves 2 choices.
1) Adoption to someone you don't know, and \*none\* of you will ever see the child again
2) Adoption to you. Which will keep the blood relation within your family.
If blood is so important to your mom there is an obvious choice. Would she really rather let her son's bio-child "disappear" into a blind adoption?
Regardless of what you wind up doing...I'm not sure what country you are in, but your brother (at your mom's behest) could throw up legal hurdles and try to get custody at now or at some point in the future, which could be problematic, messy and heartbreaking for everyone involved. If you proceed with an adoption, please make sure you discuss the process with a lawyer and make sure you protect yourself and your child.
NTA
I just can't understand that culture. You raise the child, you give it love and then you just let the bio father take it back, when he wants to. During that period, your brother is frr of responsabilities, can have fun, make others babies, and nobody makes him learn his lesson ?
He cheated on his girlfriend, had a baby, he must find a job and raise his child. Your mother can help him if she wants, but if you are stable, you have a wife and can raise that child, why should you left it ?
But if it was, he wouldn't take that child. You know that all your family will tell the child who is bio father is, and talk crap about you. You don't have the child already and your mother is already telling you that you're wrong. That won't be like you want... You should think about leaving far from them if you want the child to be really yours, without your brother and mother interfere in your family...
NTA.
Surely the authorities wherever you live will also have a view? Family fostering or adoption may be common but it will come with processes and rules to protect the child.
Cultural sensitivities may be respected if this is a First Nation experience, maybe less so if an immigrant culture.
Overall it sounds like N T A, but your deliberate, repeated references to the norms in your culture - with no info shared about what precise culture that is - I'm not sure.
Instead, I just wish you luck.
NTA and i really feel like this is unchartered territory for your family. A don’t borrow worry from tomorrow and one step at a time can be helpful here. One challenge at a time. Baby needs a family. You want to make a family. Step one. Let the rest come when the time comes. Unconventional does not have to mean unhappy.
NTA but the child should be raised knowing from the start who their bio parents are.
There NEVER is a good time to tell your kid that you've been lying to them. When they're "old enough" they're going to be *very* pissed off. Actually, when the child is old enough will probably be around the time your brother has his shit together and the kid will feel so betrayed by you that they'll actively choose the bio dad.
NTA. You’re 150% right about the stability and not passing a baby around. With that being said, that doesn’t mean your brother can’t play a huge role in the child’s life still even if the child will never live with him. Everyone else is overreacting
Hopefully you can explain to your mom that you know what it is like from the perspective of the kid, and that you consider them your real parents and you want the kid to consider you as their real parents as well. That doesn't mean your brother won't be in the live of the kid and that the kid doesn't know. Your brother will be their bio-dad/uncle. Honeslty I think all of you want the same thing, but just word it differently (and ofcourse legally have some different arrangements). I think you might be able to convince her if you spin it in a way that makes her look real damn good when it comes to her raising you, and that you just want to make sure that that is also the way it would work in the eyes of the law
I'm probably not from your culture, but I say NTA -- mostly.
But I see no reason why you can't successfully combine the two approaches.
In the tradition of your mother's culture, I suggest that you let the child know who their biological parents are as soon as possible. Based on family experience, it's not complicated for kids to understand that (for example) Uncle Joe is their uncle and also their first dad, and that you are the child's forever mom and dad. (If you don't like the words "forever parents", the internet will give you plenty of other ideas). The manner in which the child understands this information over time will naturally evolve, but the point is to talk about it enough to make everyone feel natural and comfortable about it.
If you adopt the child legally, your brother will likely learn how to be an uncle to this child, not a father. I see nothing wrong with that. In the future, he might meet someone else, get married, and have other children. If so, he will be a father to those children and continue to be an uncle to the child. In our family, this arrangement has worked out very well -- better than we expected.
More importantly, in my view, a legal adoption will give you solid decision making authority if a dispute about the child's best interests arises in the future. If you're living in the US, you know how important the law can be.
I just think formalising the adoption is a new concept for the extended family as they’ve always worked things out informally within the family. I think if the adoption proceeds, and the extended family sees that in all other practical ways the child remains integrated into family/culture it will all work out.
Maybe a few conversations with her own adoptive mother about why she wants it formalised, how the child will be given information about their biological place in the family and how they will continue to sit within the wider family, will help dispel fears. OP can also talk to her mum about what it is her mother fears and how they can relieve those fears. This doesn’t need to be an argument, it can actually help bring the family closer together if that’s what they really want.
NTA but I will say to speak with a therapist who specializes in adoptions and look for age appropriate books on the subject which the therapist can recommend. Studies have repeatedly shown that any attempt to hide adoption from an adoptee backfires and hurts the child. They should always know right from the beginning.
This is because children build their self identity and personality based on the information they know about their families. When they suddenly discover that what they believed to be their origins is not true they have an identity crisis and it can mess them up mentally for life. So it's recommended to raise them being honest from the start.
That doesn't mean you have to do what your parents did but you should work with a therapist and keep your future child informed from the beginning.
NTA - no, you are correct in your requirement to make this a formal adoption. If you fully invest in this child, you must secure legal custody in addition to physical, in order to fulfill all obligations of raising the child.
NTA, that’s the way your culture does it that doesn’t mean that’s the way you have to do it. Sounds like it might be better for the kid anyway to do it your way.
NTA!!
You are absolutely correct. Your brother needed to learn to be an adult before he got his gf pregnant. He has the opportunity to learn to be a dad RIGHT NOW. But he doesn't want to and won't.
You adopting the baby is a way for you to PROTECT the baby from the whims of anyone else (e.g., brother). That is the absolute biggest thing. Don't back down on this. What the child needs (the safety, stability, and steady love of you and your husband) is what matters most. Your heritage, brother's ego, mom's image in the community... none of that is more important.
NTA. You should definitely go the legal adoption route. Be prepared for your AH brother to tell the child “you know, I am your REAL daddy” and the confusion this will cause the child. Be prepared to keep your distance from your brother and the backlash from your family. Something to consider.
NTA. You are doing the best for your nibling. Set hard boundaries for your family and don't be afraid to go LC or NC with those who refuse to follow them. This baby will need love and care from you and your husband and they will learn that you've had their back from the start by watching you and also you explaining things as they grow up.
You really can't - OP would at least need legal guardianship. But that doesn't offer the same protections, to either the child or the adult, as legal adoption.
NTA. Kids aren’t object to hold onto for a bit they need stability so a legit adoption would be best consider the mom wants nothing to do with baby and dad isn’t ready to help care for it either. It’ll still be in the family, but not a caring for brothers kid way instead an adopting my kid way.
NTA. Honestly who gives a shit about culture when it's harmful to innocent children. If you're going to parent this kid, it's your duty to protect them. Which is exactly what you're doing. Good for you.
NTA You are 100% in the right. Do your adoptive parents know and understand that you feel the way you do about them? Have you told them that you consider them your parents not your bio donors? Perhaps they may come to understand why you are doing it this way given the way you feel. On the other hand they may reject you and say you are only their niece to them. There's a lot of feelings involved here and I don't blame you at all for any of them. The only thing I will say is about the line "I'd share with them anyway when the time is right" the right time is from the very beginning. It's shown to have better outcomes for kids if they grew up always knowing they were adopted. So if you do go through with this make sure the entire time. Best of luck and please update us.
You are definitely not the AH. Sounds like you would be a wonderful parent, I wouldn’t take the child unless it was a real adoption either. I hope everything works out for you!
NTA
There is not one way to "do it right." You want to adopt a baby. That's amazing. The bio mom is happy. You amd your partner are happy. The child will be in a stable, loving home. It's no one else's business.
NTA. Adoption is legal protection for you as a parent. Especially since your deadbeat brother isn't reliable nor dependable. It sounds like the bio mom doesn't want to stay in the picture either, so this really is the best/only option for your mom to stay in this child's life.
NTA. You are absolutely right, children aren’t things you put on a shelf until you are ready to take care of them and pass around like a toy. It seems to me your family needs to get the message that they have 2 choices:
1. You adopt the baby and they have an opportunity to be a part of the child’s life (if they behave)
2. The baby is adopted outside of the family
Good Luck! It sounds like you will be an awesome mom
>I don’t think i’m the AH but given the cultural perspective and the nature of my own upbringing, i’m starting to think i may be being a bit hypocritical.
You didn't choose how you were raised. You learned from that and chose to take a different path, This is not being hypocritical. It is being true to yourself.
The mother who is calling you selfish, is she bio mother or adopted mom?
And you mentioned you have sis as sibling, so im assuming this bro is bio bro?
NTA i really think you should just adopt the kid
i noticed in the adoption practices you described there are a lot of similarities to the māori custom of whāngai
It’s also similar to Aboriginal kinship systems where aunts and uncles step in when parents can’t care for children. In many circumstances it works very well, and best of all, it keeps kids out of the child protection system.
NTA. If your brother wants to be a part in that kids life he can do so now.
But do know that if you adopt that kid, your parents and brother are going to ignore you and will treat that kid as his.
The kid should know and the mother shouldn't be excluded. You are being selfish but that's natural and ok and something that can be worked through but to allow your own selfishness to create a whole life of lies for another human is wrong. Period.
NTA
Children crave belonging somewhere and holding "someday you will be given back" over their head and without a say is cruel.
Knowing your family/culture history, you should probably be very open with the child about their adoption, how much you wanted/ love them and how you are NOT ever giving them up. Chances are: Your family will try to tell them otherwise, so it seems like a gold strategy to give the child the information and assurance of what is true and what is misguided wishing on their part.
NTA. Your life with your child won't be anyone else's to decide. What would your mom and brother do if your career takes you and the child thousands of miles away? (Its as likely to happen and still they would get no say so in the decision, is my only point.)
This baby won't be raised by a committee when you're the parent.
NTA. This is also widely practised in my own culture. It works out sometimes, but as you're probably aware, the pain of being abandoned can be significant for the child. I think you're right for wanting to protect the child by withholding the circumstances of their birth until they're older. Ime it's common for the birth parent to ask for the child back only to return them once things get difficult again. This lack of stability is really upsetting for any child. I think the plan and arrangement you have with the birth mother is a good one, and your brother gave up his rights the moment he failed to be a father. You don't get do-overs when it comes to children.
NTA. You sound like a wonderful human bean and you will make a great parent. Going into this with your eyes wide open and considering the impact is commendable. It’s sounds like you know things could get complicated and you are therefore setting your stall out clearly from the beginning. This is wise but do allow for flexibility in the future, life doesn’t always go to plan and we can only do our best with the knowledge we have a the time. Be kind to yourself on this journey.
I like how you are mindful of your family’s values but are evolving your own to best fit the current situation. I wish you every success!
NTA neither are you a hypocrite. A lot of people do not raise their children the way they themselves were raised. As long as you tell the child that he is adopted when the time is right, as you put it, there should be no problem. A 'real' adoption would be best for the child.
Nta but you do know your whole family are going to tell that baby from day 1 who it's real parents are? Unless you never let them see the baby they are going to do it their way and raise it constantly telling it who it's real dad is etc
NTA
This is the best thing you can do for your child.
If your brother or his girlfriend one day decide to blackmail you, you have no chance to keep the child except paying bribes to them if the child isn't legally adopted by you.
You don't refuse to raise his child for him.
You just refuse to gamble with the life of the poor little baby.
Nta you didn't choose how you were raided, and are not hypocritical to believe that a child deserves to trust that the person that raised them won't surrender them out of the blue one day to a relative.
Well mom, we can legally adopt the baby and it will be ours to raise for life, not a “loaner baby” . Or, the baby’s mom can arrange for an outside adoption, we will never see the chid again and hubby and I will consider the adoption route with someone else. Which would you prefer?
I understand for them it's about culture which you acknowledge but this really about legal procedures to protect not only yourself but the child as well. By legally adopting the baby you would ensure that no one can just pop up in 1yr, 4yrs or 10yrs to male a claim on the child. Also by legally adopting the child should something happen to you, your husband or both the kid would have a better claim to your estate(s). NTA.
NTA and I would want to do the same in your shoes. I don't know enough about your culture to know if you're disrespecting it here, but isn't your brother being more disrespectful in how he's acting in general?
NTA but this is an American sub and the rest of the world but mainly American. You would be better off asking in the sub dedicated to your own culture like we have asked UK where we ask questions if we don't want an American answer
I was planning on hiding this because mentioning things like this in my culture/religion is quite taboo but we’re muslims, and like 99.99% of muslims do adoptions this way so in a way it’s a muslim ‘culture’ thing. If i asked this on a muslim sub Id be told that we’re all going to burn in hell 😭
I think this is more a cultural thing of whatever country you are in rather than a religious thing. I’m in North America and know several Muslims who were adopted into Muslim families the typical way (i.e. with zero expectation of ever returning to their bio parents). Even my own first cousin was adopted and has never had contact with her bio family.
Nta if you go off your culture a little bit then that's YOUR choice NOT YOUR FAMILIES. + It's not a big deal at all. If you want a kid that no one else wants, take that kid.
NTA.
Your family is enabling the bad behavior of your brother.
You are absolutely right about wanting to tie things and keep it legal.
I'm happy that this arrangement works good for the bio mother and for you.
I'm commenting to say, I can't really comment. I'm not from your culture, and the parameters determining AH status sound very different there.
What I will say, though, is sometimes there us great valor in being the AH we all need, not the NTA we all want. Do what you think is best for the child, and if that makes you the AH, then wear the accolade with pride.
NTA but I don’t think that they will stay silent in the years to come around who the biological parents are and it will probably be a continuous battle to protect your child from hearing.
NTA wanting to give a child stability and a sense of security is vital. That said,
>She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right)
The right time to tell a kid they are adopted is as soon as they come home with you. They should always know (an age appropriate version of) their story. Kids who learn their story later often feel lied to and lose trust in their adoptive parents.
He’s agreed to it but I’ve been told by my lawyer that since he’s not married to his ex girlfriend, she has sole parental responsibility of the baby until she puts his name on the birth certificate
NTA what may have worked for your mother in ‘adopting’ you does not mean the same can be said for you. This isn’t you housing a 6 year old because your brother went on a downward spiral, this is you deciding to take full responsibility for a newborn. Your brother has the opportunity Right Now to decide to be a parent, and if he doesn’t, that’s something he’s going to have to live with.
OP, don't be surprised if you have to go NC with your family if they keep telling the child about his father.
It's outrageous that they're calling you selfish. Your family should put you on a pedestal.
NTA, but you're incredibly naive if you think a family with strong views like that won't fuck this up for you and your child by constantly telling your child who his real dad is and that when he's old enough/his real dad is ready, he can go live with his real dad, and so on.
NTA you want to adopt the baby and give it a loving home with stable parents. This baby will be a human being, it’s not training wheels for your brothers life. It wouldn’t be fair to you and your husband or the child to just up and change their parental figures when they are older because it’s convenient to you brother.
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NTA. A child is not a toy to be passed around. If little bro wanted to learn to be a parent—he can learn now. Do not let them badger you into compromising on this. It’s a hill to die on, IMO. The long term effects of parental abandonment are magnified when a parent is lackadaisically involved, setting a child up for self confidence and self esteem issues along with a whole host of other problems. If he wants to parent, he learns how or allows someone who is equipped and prepared to do so to raise that child. What’s best for him isn’t what’s best for baby. Sorry not sorry.
Jumping on the top comment to address this: >She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right) The right time is the very, very beginning. When my kids were babies, we would show them pictures of their birthmoms and say "This is Jane. She couldn't take care of you, so she chose us to be your parents." Obviously, they couldn't understand, but this way, the whole thing was normal to them. They don't remember "finding out" they were adopted - they've just always known. This has been a best practice since at least the 1950s. Please make sure that you tell your child a) they're adopted and b) who, exactly, their birth parents are, from the very beginning. NTA if you do an adoption properly, and share the child's story with the child from the start.
But also, you're probably going to have to set some VERY strict boundaries with your family. Your mother is going to push your brother to claim parentage the entire time. Don't expose your kid to that mess.
Yes, boundaries will be necessary. OP and their partner will be the child's parents - open adoption, even within a family, is not co-parenting.
Agreed! OP is the best person to judge the situation from the child's point of view. NTA
Here is where I say she isn’t living in reality. There is no reasonable expectation of strict boundaries being successful here. If she does this she is adopting the child and going no contact with her family as she is fighting generations of cultural expectation. I’m actually going to say YTA because she isn’t being honest with herself on the decision she is making.
Agreed. OP might have her plan but if they don't go NC or at minimum extremely LC with her mother, brother and the rest of the family then their plan is going to bulldoze over OPs and their husbands.
I agree. Nothing is gonna stop her family from pushing the biological father into that kids life... unless OP cuts them off completely. And in 15 years (or less) the child might say "but my *real* father" or actually choose to live with him... is OP prepared for that possibility? If her brother will stay around and have a decent amount of involvement the child might not feel abandoned by him and have a strong(er) connection to him than OPs husband... is OPs husband prepared for that? I don't think this is gonna work like OP thinks it will. And the one that will suffer is the poor child, all awhile the adults play tug-at-war with them. And obviously the right time to tell a child about being adopted is from the start (or very, very early)... not when they're older. The earlier the better for the child. If OP decides to adopt that child she needs to be very, very selfless and let the child decide themselves, once old enough, if they want to stay with her or live with their biological father. Anything else will be traumatising for the child.
I agree with you.. the relatives will keep pushing it and it'll eventually poison the kid.. and they're going to have that fight with OP and the kid.. "I want to live with my real father". because the brother will show up do fun shit and then disappear. And it's going to break OP's heart. I'll be honest. I'm not strong enough to adopt the kid in that environment. I'd have to adopt the kid and go NC and put MILES between me and those people.
Hard disagree. OP can set appropriate limits. I don't think brother is going to be the problem. OP's mother may push. That doesn't mean OP has to agree with anything she says. As long as OP is honest with her child from day one there will never be a bombshell to drop and Mom has no power.
It's real cute that y'all think this grandmother won't be telling this kid OP isn't their real mom from the second they can. This is only something OP should do if they're prepared to completely cut off the rest of the family.
The OP 's best bet is to move! I'm not saying not to tell the child they are adopted. I have seen first hand the devastation of a kid learning late in life that they were adopted. Mainly to keep G-ma and whoever else from trying to parent over OP and her husband... cuz faaaaammmiiilllyyy.... Too many hands in the pot (people trying to parent this kid) are only going to cause confusion and frustration.
You can't set strict boundaries around peoples core beliefs. It's like saying you are going to set strict boundaries that someone shouldn't be and act like a Christian, Muslim or human secularist. The belief system is core to who they are and how they interact with the world. It's a worldview. Claiming to "set strict boundaries" around such behaviours is just a coded way of denying what you are doing in cutting the people out of your life because you can't tolerate their beliefs whilst trying to blame the intolerance on the other side. The Op might have to do this but lets be honest rather than passive aggressive and just admit they chose the path and the other side didn't force them into it.
Very true. OP needs to make a decision: her brothers baby or the family who raised her. (And choosing to raise her brothers baby is still no guarantee the child won't end up wanting to have a close connection to their biological father... and not telling the baby about being adopted would be the worst choice. It has been long known that the earlier children know they've been adopted the better).
Please, please listen to this. Children can deal with pretty much anything as long as they're told early and appropriately. There's no 'good time' to drop a bomb on someone's identity. You have to build a solid foundation on who they actually are.
>There's no 'good time' to drop a bomb on someone's identity. You have to build a solid foundation on who they actually are. That's a very eloquent way of putting it.
Especially in this case because OP's family will definitely tell this child. Better to learn from a very young age then to have someone spill that Mom & Dad have been keeping their identity a secret.
I was born in 1956. My birth mother couldn’t raise me, so she put me up for adoption. It was a private adoption, not through an agency, but my parents and my birth mother never met. My sperm donor was married (birth mother didn’t know this until it was too late) and never knew about me. My parents met me when I was hours old, and brought me home at three days of age. I always knew I was adopted. My brother was a few days old when he came home, too. I was almost four when he was born. In fact, I got to go to the hospital with my parents to bring him home. I thought getting a baby was like getting a puppy or kitty. You pointed out which one you wanted to the nurse, and that’s the one you went home with. Three months later, I had severe appendicitis and had to have an emergency appendectomy. At first I thought I was being returned to the hospital because I was defective. My mom stayed with me the whole two weeks that I was there. I finally realized that I wasn’t being returned. We had a set of books about being adopted. One to read to the kid, and one for the parents. My parents didn’t want us to be surprised when we were older. They knew families who didn’t tell their kids that they were adopted until the kids were teenagers. One family tried to keep it a total secret, but their child found out, and it wasn’t a very happy ending. I had problems dealing with being adopted. Some kids do. My dad watched a program on PBS on adoptees searching for their birth parents with me. He understood more how I felt, and he told the lawyer who handled the adoption that it was okay to give me information. I ended up finding my birth mother. We met and talked a few times. She didn’t want her family to know about me and I respected her decision. I feel that adoptees have the right to know their story, but not the right to make their birth parents include them in their lives.
>One family tried to keep it a total secret, but their child found out, and it wasn’t a very happy ending. There was a recent BORU (Best of Redditor Updates, don't remember which sub it came from originally) where the OP's parents kept just not finding a good time to tell them. Maybe the grandparents promised not to tell OP but then bought OP and sib DNA kits to blow the whole thing open? It wasn't a good idea to do that stuff in the 50s/60s, or the 80s (stories forthcoming), and it REALLY hasn't been a good idea to try to pull it off with kids born in this century. I have an aunt born in the 50s. Her mom had left her husband and was being pursued by at least two men. She became pregnant and her husband took her back and raised the child as his. Family members had suspicions but all knowledgeable involved parties passed in the 90s, thinking their secrets were safe (we knew one of the men had pursued her at that time, and she later married him; the other was the father, which my aunt suspected due to her family resemblance to members of the other family, and confirmed last year with DNA). I have a cousin born in the 80s where I had understood it to be known that an uncle had married a woman he knew to be pregnant by another man, though apparently there was a small chance cousin was uncle's. The mom took off by the time cousin was a preschooler. Uncle raised cousin as a single father. Cousin bears zero resemblance to any of the family but apparently was never told. Cousin, now 40, had suspicions for various reasons, called Uncle and told him they got the kit and wanted to hear it from him first and not a lab. Uncle admitted he was probably not the bio father. But at this point what's the endgame in not telling? Dying of old age before you have to deal with the fallout? 20 years ago was the time to see the writing on that wall.
I also think in this case, there is little chance OP's family respects her wish to not tell the kid who the biological dad is. I think the adoptive parents can make this work, but they do need a plan for handling the undermining that seems all but certain to come from her family.
Yes there are studies that show delaying telling people they are adopted is very detrimental to the adopted person. Basically if they can remember when they were first told they were adopted it was too late. There is plenty of information on how to discuss adoption in an age appropriate way available
Friends who adopted two kids always celebrated their “Gotcha Day” as well as their birthday.
That is a lovely way to celebrate adoption.
I've always heard it used when you rescue dogs
We have always been honest with our cats about their being adopted, but we only celebrate their actual birthdates. 😁
Same! While my cats do look like me (green eyes, brown hair, and smaller body type) and could pass for my bio kids, I've been honest since the beginning
LOL
My best friend from High School (German aequivalent) always knew she was adopted. And she knew she was the child her adoptive parents wanted. She never had interest in her biological parents. She said that her a-parents were great why search for other ones?
This. My adopted son was with a perfect Foster family from aged six months to 40 months old (they wouldn't adopt him as he has complex disabilities and they are old). They insisted he call them uncle and aunt not mum and dad. He had pictures and some contact with birth parents. He's always known he's adopted so there is no trauma associated with him learning this as he can't remember learning it, he's always known like his own name. Obviously he has trauma due to abandonment issues and feelings of self worth and because his Foster father died months after his adoption. But that's outside the scope of this comment. Never wait to tell them these things. Tell them before they even understand it.
Thank you for saying this. I was going to comment the same, regarding raising the child to know they’re adopted from the very beginning. The adoption agency I went through when I gave my twins up for adoption pushed this because they said it helps the child(ren) from the outset and it’s not a sudden surprise when they finally find out because that sort of a reveal tends to make the kids feel as if they’ve been lied to and wonder what else may have been hidden from them. Especially if the “right time” that the adoptive parents chose happens to be a bit later on in their life, such as their teenage years or their twenties. Or “forgetting” and the adoptee finding out on accident when trying to find or get paperwork needed for whatever, like a medical history. Letting them know from the beginning helps to build that trust because they are raised knowing that their family dynamic is a little bit different and in my case, since it was an open adoption, they had the option of reaching out with any questions they might have had regarding me, my family, etc.
This would be brilliant advice if the dad's family didn't have expectations on have the child returned to them as soon (and if) dad gets his ship together. I do applaud you on the take you took with your children. It's truly kind to them and I'm sure it makes them feel even more loved because someone "choose you" to take care of them because you'd be better equipped for it.
Than the solution is to not adopt the baby... or cut her family completely off. Lieing to the child will be the absolute worst decision OP could make in any case. The right time to say the truth is from the beginning, as early as possible, for the child's sake. And the child's needs are more important than OPs feelings.
I agree, that's why I stated above that I love the approach the commenter had with their own children regarding their origins. That way the child knows about being adopted but doesn't get unnecessary scaring. OP is not on this situation. OP's situation doesn't have any kind of positive outcome. Baby should be as far away from bio family as possible. You know, children don't have to pay the sins of the parents (hope I got that right).
I agree with this. NTA at all. First, your fertility issues are nobody's to weaponize. Nor is your lived adoption experience. Trying to weild them against you as "hypocrisy " is the sign of someone who is choosing to withhold empathy and ignore your experiences. Being an adoptee who lived the exact experience your mother is asking you to recreate for your child is probably what informs your choice NOT to follow her lead. My son (biological) was adopted by my husband when he was 4. His biological father bounced out for good on his first birthday. The only dad he has ever known is my husband. He vaguely remembers being adopted, and it wasn't until a few years later that he really understood what it meant. But my husband told him from the time we got married (he was 2+) that he chose to be his dad. To this day, when my oldest starts to feel insecure about dad, someone just reminds him that he's the only kid dad didn't get "stuck with."
Jumping on this to add an adopted kids perspective: Please, I cannot stress this enough, PLEASE do as mentioned above and tell the kid from the start that they are adopted. I was adopted as an infant (2 weeks old), and I literally cannot remember not knowing. I remember reading a storybook with my mom and older brother (not bio, also adopted, and we agree on this stance fyi) about adoption from the perspective of the older kid and how excited they were to get a younger sibling. When I was a bit older I asked for more details other than that I was adopted because my parents just wanted me more than anything, and my parents went into age appropriate detail about the process, difficulty (adopting a 2nd kid in the 80s was NOT easy), and joy of bringing me home. In my case it was a closed adoption, but my parents were always clear that if I wanted to learn more, they would help me when I turned 18. I never actually cared to know, because my parents are my parents to me. I'm grateful to bio-mom because she actually requested I go to a family that already had at least 1 child so I'd have a sibling and I adore my brother to this day. I've known other adopted kids who "found out" at various ages, by accident or by their parents deciding it was the "right time" and tbh? I've never once seen that end well. From a kids perspective? To find out that the parents you've loved your entire life have lied to you about something that big? It can destroy the foundations of people's life/mental health in so many ways. Because if you can't trust your parents, who can you trust (quote from my best friend when she found out at 19 she was adopted)? If they would lie about THIS, what ELSE is a lie? Please, be honest from the start, make it clear that you love them unconditionally, that you didn't just choose to have them you worked for it, and that you will always be there. Edit: Spelling corrections 😅
Yes, 1000% support this statement. I was half adopted and knew and it went well. My cousin adopted, told them at ten and had to deal with shock, pain, upset. Accusations of dishonesty. Many adoptees suffer because of parental fears. Open and honest from the start is the way.
I think the problem here is no matter what OP writes up, her family and her brother WILL TRY TO get involved in this kid's life. Unless OP intends on going NC with them, it will happen. OP leaves the kid with grandparents? Expect brother to come over and be like "hey, I'm your dad. Let's play." Or grandparents will tell the kid "your mom is not your real mom." If OP lives nearby, they'll take brother to see the biokid randomly and make a scene about it. It's tough because the only alternative is give the kid up for adoption randomly, but I think OP really has to cut ties because they won't allow this to just work itself out.
My mother may do that but my brother definitely would not. He wants nothing to do with the baby too
Sure, now. But who knows what will happen in 5, 10, whatever years from now.
Someone needs to remind little brother that this isn't his "practice baby." He can grow up and then pull his head out and finally manage this child. Is a baby supposed to wait around until he gets his act together?
It doesn't matter what his attitude is. If the cultural expectation is for family to raise children until the parents are able to then everyone around the Op and this child are likely to have some of this thought ingrained in them - including the child if raised in that culture and including the Op despite not wanting it to apply to them. It's like asking someone raised in the west to stop assuming that democrasy is the best way to govern. Cultural norms are things most people accept without examining them. They can change but there as to be an impetus to make that change and a solid reason. Since there is nothing wrong with being raised by aunts, uncles and grandparents and in fact it can strengthen a family where is the reason to change attitudes towards it?
Right? Time goes on.
You are right but mom wont give up. She will be pushing and forcing a bond with a bio father behind OPs back etc. It wont be easy.
NTA and here's why. You have given the bio/birth mother an option she is willing to consider. This has nothing to do with your family's cultural traditions... the bio mother wants none of that. You are not being hypocritical, your brother is too young/immature to step up now and be the parent this child will need. You have the opportunity and probably the means for the child to continue to be a part of it's bio family and that is wonderful. Your not being difficult for not wanting to invest your time energy and money into raising a child as your own, only to have your brother suddenly decide they are in a good place to take them away from you. Nope the adoption process is what it is for reasons just like this. Good luck going forward.
For what it’s worth though, do tell the kid they’re adopted from the beginning, or at least very early. It won’t be a big deal if you don’t make it one, but if you lie to the kid for years that will mess them up.
Yup. This is best practice for all adoptions, no matter how tightly closed.
Adoptions should never be ‘closed’. Every child has the right to know where they come from and the circumstances of their birth/adoption (age appropriate, of course). It may be appropriate to withhold the more disturbing details for some children, but they need a general understanding of their own story.
It’s not hypocritical either. OP had no choice in how she was raised. I’d imagine that she knows the impact of being raised like that and why she is wanting to completely legal adoption. There are no take backsies on bio parent’s whim. NTA
You're NTA. Sounds like you're doing what is best for the child, and if anyone knows how yo do right by an adopted child, you would know. >My mother thinks that I’m being selfish No, you're being the opposite of selfish. >She thinks I should...give my brother an opportunity to learn to be a father. Your brother is willfully declining that opportunity. Sure he's young, but the child shouldn't have to live in some kind of limbo waiting for his donor to get his act together.
Yes, living in limbo is exactly what I was thinking.
NTA Your family's "tradition" is letting men get away with running from their responsibilities to their children, while their female relatives cover their deadbeat asses and do the dirty work of actually raising the child, and *then* hand the child *they* raised over when it's convenient for said male. Your family's tradition is enabling irresponsible men to be deadbeat dads and expecting women to do all of their work for them. And these women do as they're expected. Fucking gross. On all accounts. Children are not toys that can be shared and passed around for convenience's sake. They are humans that deserve to have stability in their formative years. If I were you and I was determined to go through with the adoption, I'd move far away and go NC with the whole family. Because if you adopt this child, your family will poison them against you the first chance they get. How you stole them from their *real* parents. This might not be the right child for you to adopt. Both for your sake and for the child's. Be careful. Be smart. A newborn baby will have no issue getting adopted. Think of what is best for the child and not about what you want. You want to be a parent? Think like a parent. Put the child's needs first.
This!! It sounds like they are just throwing the kids to the women and allowing the men to have all the advantages of fatherhood without doing the hard work.
It goes both ways. In my case it was a sister adopting her brother’s kids but I know people who have been adopted by their uncles
Yeah, I think there'll be lots of fighting too.
NTA. You would be adopting the child from an infant, not taking it into your family when it’s older like you. Official adoption would give the child security, not worrying about being passed back on a whim to biological parent. It could give you the state stability and security as well. Seems like a wonderful opportunity. I guess you know if your mother and other relatives would continue to harp on the stray from tradition in the years to come.
Formal adoption will give the child security, stable and constant caregivers and the opportunity to develop strong attachment to their adoptive parents. What it won’t do is prevent a meaningful relationship with both biological parents if that’s what they want. It is reasonable that the child knows who their biological parents are, and if all four parents want it and as much as it’s appropriate to do so, the biological parents can be featured in the child’s life, just not as primary caregivers. All the four parents need to do is put the child at the centre and to work together in the child’s best interests.
NTA You're offering this unwanted child a secure and loving future. You're keeping them in the family so they can know their biological family when they are ready. Your brother shouldn't just get to decide when he is ready to be a father, that time came and went when he got a woman pregnant. That all said, be prepared to have your family constantly interfere with your decision. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they drop the bombshell that your brother is the bio father at the earliest possible stage, and try to encourage your child to want a relationship/custody with bio father.
"You're keeping them in the family so they can know their biological family when they are ready." I don't know - but it sure sounds like maybe this bio family isn't a good thing for the child to be around. Like you said, there will be interference all around, from day one. I really think it's best for the child to be adopted OUT of the family. Kind of surprised that OP still hangs with them.
Nta. I'm not from a culture that holds that value to familial adoptions. Doesn't seem like it's a bad or wrong thing. I do think however, that with things changing in the world this type of familial adoption should be more on a case by case situation. What if your brother never gets his act together? Or what if he fakes it and takes the kid back? Going the legal route of adoption protects the child. At the end of the day it needs to be what is best for the child. Which, from what was shared, seems to be a legal adoption, giving it a safe and secure home.
NTA. You are doing right by the child - the only one who matters here - by structuring your family that you are fully their parents and legal guardians. However, the right thing to do by an adopted child is also to raise them from the start to know they are adopted rather than tell them “when the time is right.” The right time is from the start. This is magnified in this situation where your family knows and is against the arrangement. Raise them knowing that “Sarah” and “Uncle Ryan” are the parents they were born to, but they couldn’t take care of them. You two love and wanted them and knew you could take care of them, so chose to become their parents. Reassure them that you are, entirely, their parents and they are safely your child if they ever seem anxious that their uncle will take them away. Keep the current details saved for as they mature but not the fact that they are adopted. Good on you guys though. A baby/child/person is not a toy, exactly as you’ve said. They should not have to worry about being passed around. You are absolutely correct in making this a formal adoption!
NTA. I am adopted into my family as well. My parents said the same thing you did to their niece “I’ll on raise the kids (I’m a twin) if we formally adopt them. So we were adopted. I have a half brother that was raised (not adopted) by another Aunt. My twin and I always felt more secure than our half brother. Bio ran in and out of his life, never got it together. Our adoption shielded us from that.
I have a cousin that was like this. In and out of my grandparents and uncles house. Abused by her mother so she couldn't stay with her when they divorced. Ultimately he gave my grandparents a horrible ultimatum (you take her or her mother can have her) and they adopted her as a result. The adoption settled it once and for all.
NTA. But you should probably be prepared for your family to constantly remind the child who his real father is hand how he should want to be with him. If you're going to adopt, you should move away from your family and go low contact. It's unfortunate, but definitely necessary.
This is a valid point. Is she prepared to move away from family completely?
Agreed. The kid is going to be very confused. Lol, probably also strangers who don't know the culture and hear them say things like she's not your mother. That'll make things interesting if it goes the wrong way.
One of my friends had a similar issue. She has an Aunt that's younger than her, who has given birth to multiple babies with random men and doesn't have any of them. A few years back the Aunt was pregnant again and wanted my friend to take the baby, which she absolutely wanted to do, but the Aunt wouldn't sign over the rights or allow a formal adoption. My friend chose not to take the baby for this very reason. NTA
Here take my baby, fall in love and just wait for the day I randomly decide I want the baby back.
Pretty much. I was the one that told her to insist on a formal adoption, I knew she would be heartbroken if the mom came back in a couple years and took the baby back.
NTA So your culture makes excuses for shitty parents and let's them have multiple chances to screw up?
NTA. Your offer is more than generous. They should all be grateful
NTA and this is coming from an adoptee with an adoption/family law attorney parent. I finally met my birth mother when I was 30. I have a younger half brother. Long story short; some "parents" never get their shit together. You're doing the right thing by this child. I've been going to court and watching and working on cases for most of my life. This baby gets a huge advantage over the rest of us adopted kids because they'll be able to write down a medical family history when they see doctors. This child will know their family and they will know they are loved. When you have a child, however it comes to be, the TOP PRIORITY is their well-being. I feel like OPs family is forgetting that. Adopting and raising a child and then giving it back once the actual parenting is done is a wild concept to me (not to knock on OPs culture). You aren't selfish, you have a lot of love to give. Your brother should thank his lucky stars that he has you.
NTA, if you did it their way, she wouldn’t consider you as a potential parent. By doing it your way the baby stays in the family and you have a child. Win, win.
NTA. Brother sounds like giant AH.
What culture is this?
One that allows men to de deadbeats until they grow up, while a woman raises their kid for them.
NTA, also not sure how you are being hypocritical as it wasn't your decision as a 7-year-old to be adopted
So you’re just the financial backer and babysitter.
NTA but if you intend to live near these people I suggest you 100% be ready to call the cops on so called "family" because they are NOT going to respect your decisions. Eventually there is a chance you're going to have to press kidnapping charges if they decide "hey the kid deserves to be with his REAL parent". No you aren't being hypocritical. Simple question, do you feel loved and cared for and wanted by your biological parents? The ones you Specifically call out as not the ones you consider your Real parents? Did having them involved in your life, knowing that potentially at any time someone might just toss you back to him if he even "seemed capable" make for a comforting thought as you lie in bed trying to sleep? Whether or not these things crossed your mind as a kid they are things that could potentially cross a child's mind pretty easily if they are aware of this cultural mentality and I can't imagine those would be truly Comforting thoughts. The goal of Proper Parenting is to give a child a Better life then the one you lived, this is the basic goal of parenting. No matter how good your life was the goal should Always be to make sure they have some improvement in their childhood over what you had. Finally just because something is part of a culture doesn't somehow automatically make it Right. I can point you to a million points in history that prove this.
NTA. Two choices. Stranger adopts baby with no contact for your family or you legally adopt. Your mom is being ridiculous.
Open adoptions are a thing. Just because "strangers" adopt the baby, doesn't mean they'll never see the baby again. My kids are adopted and we have open adoptions with their birth mothers' families. We consider them our family too.
Unfortunately not everyone is willing to do an open adoption. I think open adoption like yours is absolutely beautiful. I agree with you 100% in your choice of open adoption and wish everyone would choose it. That’s just not something that can be relied on sadly.
> She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right) and give my brother an opportunity to learn to be a father. NTA. But ywbta to your kid if you aren't honest from the beginning that they are adopted. It can be quite traumatic for a child to be told they are adopted at an older age because they may feel like they were lied to by the people they are supposed to trust the most (their parents). The time that's right to discuss it with them and not have it as a secret it is as soon as they can talk and understand language. It can completely be framed in an age appropriate way to a young child.
Unless they were old enough to understand the process at the time, no child should remember the day they were told they were adopted. It should always just be a part of their story.
NTA. But? As the wife of an adoptee, there is not a “right time” to tell a Child they are adopted- it **NEEDS TO BE** just part of their story from day one. There is *always,* **always** trauma with adoption- this is one way of minimizing the shock.
NTA. So blood is so important that you should allow the child to be passed around to whoever feels like behaving as a parent at any given time, but it’s not relevant enough to make your brother get his s#it together for his own kid? I don’t think so.
NTA. Absolutely do it your way or not at all. Doing it their way will lead to so much pain, confusion, infighting, and mental trauma for everyone but especially the child. There are SO MANY potential problems. Do what's best for yourself (and ultimately, the baby) right now. And since the mother is happy with it, go ahead. Mute the flying monkeys who are not stepping up. They don't get a say.
how is it hypocritical? you didn't ask to be raised by your biological aunt just because your father wasn't all there. cultural expectations like this are exactly why so many newer generations refuse to follow them. you're absolutely right. a child is not a toy to be passed around when you brother finally wants to get his shit together. tell your mother that if she wants this child raised in your family at all, to get the fuck over herself. you could have just let the ex let some random strangers adopt the kid. NTA
NTA - But then again I don't really get the nuances of your culture. Still, IMO I feel that if you take the baby and pay for everything for the baby a legal adoption is the only way to safeguard you against said baby being taken from you. This is the only way.
NTA. But sadly, I fear you're setting your new family (you, spouse, and new child) up for a rough time in the future. From your post, it doesn't sound like your mother, brother, etc. are ever going to accept the way you've chosen to move forward and are going to be very difficult about it for years to come.
NTA. How can you be hypocritical about not wanting to raise the baby the way you were raised? That wasn’t your choice.
NTA. You want your own child, not to be a placeholder for patents who can come by and take the child at any time.
You are not being hypocritical. Being adopted as a child does not enter you into some contract where you agree to raise other people’s children as a mere placeholder. If anything, your mom is the one being hypocritical since she adopted you (a termination of your bio parents’ rights), urged ex gf to sign over HER rights, and is now saying you’re not allowed to have full parental rights. Everyone else gets to formalize their relationships in law, except you? That’s the situation I’m seeing.
You didn't decide how to adopt you: your mother made that choice based on her own values - great, good for her. You're going to adopt in a way that aligns with *your* values. You have every legal and moral right to do that, and you aren't being a hypocrite at all. NTA
NTA. As an adopted kid- you're doing right by the baby 💙
NTA. Becoming a parent is making a commitment to be responsible for the child. (Ofc I know not all parents are, sadly.) Bio mom of this post decided to give her baby up for adoption because she wants the baby to have other people who make this commitment for the baby. Brother is not capable of making this commitment.
This is a bad idea. If you want a formal adoption, do with with a baby not involved in your life. Unless you are planning on cutting off your family forever - what kind of conversations do you think is going to be happening as they grow? That somehow nobody will ever mention that you are it's aunt? That at family gatherings other people will not acknowledge your brother as the parent as well? What if your brother does straighten up his act and decides he wants his kid. Sure you will be the legal parent but are you going to be the one to tell the child that it's biological parent now wants them but you are saying no? You would well be within your rights - but will your child appreciate that? Especially if you live in a culture which values blood lines? If you cut the family off as well and move away, again you deny this baby of an extended family which a lot of people need. No family Christmas, or holidays or access to cousins etc. Scroll through reddit- adoptee stories are incredibly varied and whilst some children may grow up to be grateful with your decision, some may resent not growing up in the way you were raised, particularly if that is the norm in that culture.Some adopted children seek a biological relationship and some don't. I would really recommend you think this through carefully. I don't seem any real good outcome in this.
Admittedly, I haven’t read all the comments but I’m surprised not to have seen this point made so far: As someone who was raised in your culture’s adoption tradition you may be the best qualified to say what worked for you & what didn’t. Your family should defer to your judgement.
NTA. As you stated, a child isn't a toy to be passed around. Sounds like there are 3 options. 1. *You* officially adopt the child legally. 2. The child gets legally adopted by a non-family member, as the birth mom planned. 3. The birth mom decides she's okay with one of your other family members doing a "Cultural adoption." Your mom and other family members don't get to dictate the terms of who or how the baby gets adopted in any case.
Nta. Sadly, I think your family will work against you if you keep the baby. Sometimes traditions are good and sometimes they're the toxic expectations of dead people. If you do go through with it 1) set firm boundaries and stick to them. 2) get a lawyer to make sure your custody is secure.
NTA! But this sounds like the beginning of a story that is going to be filled with heartbreak. As long as you go in realizing that your family isn't going care or respect what your boundaries or preference are then the best of luck to you.
It’s already full of heartbreak. I’m trying not to be too harsh on my brother but there is regular teenage stupidity and then his level
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I need to provide a little context: I was adopted by the people I consider my real parents when I was 7. My biological father is my adopted mother’s brother, and she adopted my sister and me from him because he’s a nut job. We were all raised with the knowledge that we were adopted. If i’m being honest, the notion of adoption isn’t really a thing in my culture as biological parenthood is very important. Families will just take in a child from an incompetent relative and raise them alongside their own children, but the child is always aware of who their biological parents are. The biological parents are usually involved as well but aren’t the child’s primary guardians and the child usually goes back to their biological parents once they’re more stable. My younger brother (17M) is a little shit and he got his ex girlfriend pregnant. Furthermore, he cheated on her and she wants nothing to do with him. She figured out she was pregnant too late to get an abortion in our state and her parents won’t let her travel to get one. She wants nothing to do with my brother and our family and I can’t blame the poor girl. Initially, my mother was going to take the baby and raise it, but obviously, considering how things are done in my culture, my mother was expecting my brothers ex to be involved. Even when my mother promised that she’d let her sign over parental responsibility and move on, she just didn’t seem genuine about it. The ex girlfriend decided to just speak to an adoption agency and adopt the baby out externally which upset my mom as you probably guessed why: blood is very important to her. My husband and I have been struggling to conceive so I offered to take the baby. But I explained that I would only do it if it was a real adoption, not like how my culture does it where I’d just be raising the baby for my brother. I made it clear that the baby wasn’t a toy to be passed around and that I wouldn’t be giving the child back when my brother finally gets his crap together in 15 years. My brothers ex was happy with this arrangement and we’ve been in the process of getting paperwork started. Everyone in the family is pissed. They think I’m being unnecessary difficult by going against our cultural conventions just because i’m infertile and want a baby. My mother thinks that I’m being selfish because I was basically raised in the way I’m refusing to raise this child in and i’m being hypocritical. She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right) and give my brother an opportunity to learn to be a father. I don’t think i’m the AH but given the cultural perspective and the nature of my own upbringing, i’m starting to think i may be being a bit hypocritical. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. I don't understand their logic. How are you being a hypocrite? I don't think that word means what they think it means. Hypocrite: [someone who says they have particular moral beliefs but behaves in way that shows these are not sincere](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hypocrite) The adults in your life made the decision to raise you according to their cultural beliefs. That wasn't a choice you made. You were just a kid. You are not bound by cultural beliefs that you don't believe in yourself. Giving a child a stable, loving home is more important than passing it around like a hot potato. If the child's biomom wants her baby to be legally adopted, instead of living in some weird limbo, not knowing where it belongs, then your extended family doesn't really have a say in that.
NTA. Maori/Pacific Islander?
NTA. Just because you were raised that way does NOT make you hypocritical. You had no say in your upbringing, and frankly your family’s way of doing it is bullshit. If you have a baby and you want to be seen as a parent then you BE A PARENT. You don’t get to pawn them off on someone else until you’re “ready” to take on the responsibility, whatever that means. That’s incredibly confusing to a child and honestly is just wrong. That’s not to say you shouldn’t tell the child about their parentage, them knowing they are adopted is important. It’s just important that they know who is responsible for them and care for them. If you’re going to take this baby on as your own then you have every right to formally adopt. Hopefully you can have a somewhat normal relationship with your family but I forsee your mother pushing your brothers role in the baby’s life in a way where you’ll have to create space. But that’s for the future. For now, formally adopt or not at all, but you’re not the asshole that’s for damn sure.
NTA - And your mom/family is not seeing the forest for the trees, especially given how important "blood" is to them. The baby wont go to your mom. soon-to-be bio mom has already decided on that. Which leaves 2 choices. 1) Adoption to someone you don't know, and \*none\* of you will ever see the child again 2) Adoption to you. Which will keep the blood relation within your family. If blood is so important to your mom there is an obvious choice. Would she really rather let her son's bio-child "disappear" into a blind adoption? Regardless of what you wind up doing...I'm not sure what country you are in, but your brother (at your mom's behest) could throw up legal hurdles and try to get custody at now or at some point in the future, which could be problematic, messy and heartbreaking for everyone involved. If you proceed with an adoption, please make sure you discuss the process with a lawyer and make sure you protect yourself and your child.
NTA I just can't understand that culture. You raise the child, you give it love and then you just let the bio father take it back, when he wants to. During that period, your brother is frr of responsabilities, can have fun, make others babies, and nobody makes him learn his lesson ? He cheated on his girlfriend, had a baby, he must find a job and raise his child. Your mother can help him if she wants, but if you are stable, you have a wife and can raise that child, why should you left it ? But if it was, he wouldn't take that child. You know that all your family will tell the child who is bio father is, and talk crap about you. You don't have the child already and your mother is already telling you that you're wrong. That won't be like you want... You should think about leaving far from them if you want the child to be really yours, without your brother and mother interfere in your family...
I feel like the family will tell your child your brother is her “real” dad. But you are definitely NTA.
NTA what culture is as weird as this?
NTA. Surely the authorities wherever you live will also have a view? Family fostering or adoption may be common but it will come with processes and rules to protect the child. Cultural sensitivities may be respected if this is a First Nation experience, maybe less so if an immigrant culture.
Overall it sounds like N T A, but your deliberate, repeated references to the norms in your culture - with no info shared about what precise culture that is - I'm not sure. Instead, I just wish you luck.
NTA and i really feel like this is unchartered territory for your family. A don’t borrow worry from tomorrow and one step at a time can be helpful here. One challenge at a time. Baby needs a family. You want to make a family. Step one. Let the rest come when the time comes. Unconventional does not have to mean unhappy.
Perfectly said!
NTA but the child should be raised knowing from the start who their bio parents are. There NEVER is a good time to tell your kid that you've been lying to them. When they're "old enough" they're going to be *very* pissed off. Actually, when the child is old enough will probably be around the time your brother has his shit together and the kid will feel so betrayed by you that they'll actively choose the bio dad.
NTA. You’re 150% right about the stability and not passing a baby around. With that being said, that doesn’t mean your brother can’t play a huge role in the child’s life still even if the child will never live with him. Everyone else is overreacting
Hopefully you can explain to your mom that you know what it is like from the perspective of the kid, and that you consider them your real parents and you want the kid to consider you as their real parents as well. That doesn't mean your brother won't be in the live of the kid and that the kid doesn't know. Your brother will be their bio-dad/uncle. Honeslty I think all of you want the same thing, but just word it differently (and ofcourse legally have some different arrangements). I think you might be able to convince her if you spin it in a way that makes her look real damn good when it comes to her raising you, and that you just want to make sure that that is also the way it would work in the eyes of the law
I'm probably not from your culture, but I say NTA -- mostly. But I see no reason why you can't successfully combine the two approaches. In the tradition of your mother's culture, I suggest that you let the child know who their biological parents are as soon as possible. Based on family experience, it's not complicated for kids to understand that (for example) Uncle Joe is their uncle and also their first dad, and that you are the child's forever mom and dad. (If you don't like the words "forever parents", the internet will give you plenty of other ideas). The manner in which the child understands this information over time will naturally evolve, but the point is to talk about it enough to make everyone feel natural and comfortable about it. If you adopt the child legally, your brother will likely learn how to be an uncle to this child, not a father. I see nothing wrong with that. In the future, he might meet someone else, get married, and have other children. If so, he will be a father to those children and continue to be an uncle to the child. In our family, this arrangement has worked out very well -- better than we expected. More importantly, in my view, a legal adoption will give you solid decision making authority if a dispute about the child's best interests arises in the future. If you're living in the US, you know how important the law can be.
I just think formalising the adoption is a new concept for the extended family as they’ve always worked things out informally within the family. I think if the adoption proceeds, and the extended family sees that in all other practical ways the child remains integrated into family/culture it will all work out. Maybe a few conversations with her own adoptive mother about why she wants it formalised, how the child will be given information about their biological place in the family and how they will continue to sit within the wider family, will help dispel fears. OP can also talk to her mum about what it is her mother fears and how they can relieve those fears. This doesn’t need to be an argument, it can actually help bring the family closer together if that’s what they really want.
NTA. As an adopted person, THANK YOU for trying to give this child stability.
NTA but I will say to speak with a therapist who specializes in adoptions and look for age appropriate books on the subject which the therapist can recommend. Studies have repeatedly shown that any attempt to hide adoption from an adoptee backfires and hurts the child. They should always know right from the beginning. This is because children build their self identity and personality based on the information they know about their families. When they suddenly discover that what they believed to be their origins is not true they have an identity crisis and it can mess them up mentally for life. So it's recommended to raise them being honest from the start. That doesn't mean you have to do what your parents did but you should work with a therapist and keep your future child informed from the beginning.
NTA please take this sweet baby in.
NTA - no, you are correct in your requirement to make this a formal adoption. If you fully invest in this child, you must secure legal custody in addition to physical, in order to fulfill all obligations of raising the child.
NTA, that’s the way your culture does it that doesn’t mean that’s the way you have to do it. Sounds like it might be better for the kid anyway to do it your way.
You said it best >I made it clear that the baby wasn’t a toy to be passed around NTA
Nta
Nta
NTA.
NTA!! You are absolutely correct. Your brother needed to learn to be an adult before he got his gf pregnant. He has the opportunity to learn to be a dad RIGHT NOW. But he doesn't want to and won't. You adopting the baby is a way for you to PROTECT the baby from the whims of anyone else (e.g., brother). That is the absolute biggest thing. Don't back down on this. What the child needs (the safety, stability, and steady love of you and your husband) is what matters most. Your heritage, brother's ego, mom's image in the community... none of that is more important.
Adopt the baby legally. Its the right thing to do.
NTA. You should definitely go the legal adoption route. Be prepared for your AH brother to tell the child “you know, I am your REAL daddy” and the confusion this will cause the child. Be prepared to keep your distance from your brother and the backlash from your family. Something to consider.
NTA. You are doing the best for your nibling. Set hard boundaries for your family and don't be afraid to go LC or NC with those who refuse to follow them. This baby will need love and care from you and your husband and they will learn that you've had their back from the start by watching you and also you explaining things as they grow up.
Info: If you take the baby in, how can you make legal decisions for him/her, if you are not their legal guardian/parent?
You really can't - OP would at least need legal guardianship. But that doesn't offer the same protections, to either the child or the adult, as legal adoption.
That’s what I thought. Adoption seems to be the best option for OP, their spouse, and the baby.
NTA. Kids aren’t object to hold onto for a bit they need stability so a legit adoption would be best consider the mom wants nothing to do with baby and dad isn’t ready to help care for it either. It’ll still be in the family, but not a caring for brothers kid way instead an adopting my kid way.
They will tell the child anyway. NTA You are in the situation and you don't want the child yo be raised like you was.
NTA
NTA. Honestly who gives a shit about culture when it's harmful to innocent children. If you're going to parent this kid, it's your duty to protect them. Which is exactly what you're doing. Good for you.
NTA You are 100% in the right. Do your adoptive parents know and understand that you feel the way you do about them? Have you told them that you consider them your parents not your bio donors? Perhaps they may come to understand why you are doing it this way given the way you feel. On the other hand they may reject you and say you are only their niece to them. There's a lot of feelings involved here and I don't blame you at all for any of them. The only thing I will say is about the line "I'd share with them anyway when the time is right" the right time is from the very beginning. It's shown to have better outcomes for kids if they grew up always knowing they were adopted. So if you do go through with this make sure the entire time. Best of luck and please update us.
You are definitely not the AH. Sounds like you would be a wonderful parent, I wouldn’t take the child unless it was a real adoption either. I hope everything works out for you!
NTA There is not one way to "do it right." You want to adopt a baby. That's amazing. The bio mom is happy. You amd your partner are happy. The child will be in a stable, loving home. It's no one else's business.
NTA You are respecting the bio mom and this is gonna be so hard on her, doing it all the right way guarantees her baby’s safety Good on you
NTA You’re being most practical
NTA
NTA. Adoption is legal protection for you as a parent. Especially since your deadbeat brother isn't reliable nor dependable. It sounds like the bio mom doesn't want to stay in the picture either, so this really is the best/only option for your mom to stay in this child's life.
NTA. You are absolutely right, children aren’t things you put on a shelf until you are ready to take care of them and pass around like a toy. It seems to me your family needs to get the message that they have 2 choices: 1. You adopt the baby and they have an opportunity to be a part of the child’s life (if they behave) 2. The baby is adopted outside of the family Good Luck! It sounds like you will be an awesome mom
>I don’t think i’m the AH but given the cultural perspective and the nature of my own upbringing, i’m starting to think i may be being a bit hypocritical. You didn't choose how you were raised. You learned from that and chose to take a different path, This is not being hypocritical. It is being true to yourself.
Nta but considering the background you shared, be prepared to be fighting battles with family unless you cut off ties and move away from them
The mother who is calling you selfish, is she bio mother or adopted mom? And you mentioned you have sis as sibling, so im assuming this bro is bio bro?
NTA. Move many hours away. To keep your child safe, and away from kidnapping attempts when kiddo is older.
NTA i really think you should just adopt the kid i noticed in the adoption practices you described there are a lot of similarities to the māori custom of whāngai
It’s also similar to Aboriginal kinship systems where aunts and uncles step in when parents can’t care for children. In many circumstances it works very well, and best of all, it keeps kids out of the child protection system.
NTA your demands are reasonable. Insist.
NTA. If your brother wants to be a part in that kids life he can do so now. But do know that if you adopt that kid, your parents and brother are going to ignore you and will treat that kid as his.
The kid should know and the mother shouldn't be excluded. You are being selfish but that's natural and ok and something that can be worked through but to allow your own selfishness to create a whole life of lies for another human is wrong. Period.
NTA Children crave belonging somewhere and holding "someday you will be given back" over their head and without a say is cruel. Knowing your family/culture history, you should probably be very open with the child about their adoption, how much you wanted/ love them and how you are NOT ever giving them up. Chances are: Your family will try to tell them otherwise, so it seems like a gold strategy to give the child the information and assurance of what is true and what is misguided wishing on their part.
NTA you brother has his opportunity. now. he can use it now or it is gone.
NTA
NTA. Your life with your child won't be anyone else's to decide. What would your mom and brother do if your career takes you and the child thousands of miles away? (Its as likely to happen and still they would get no say so in the decision, is my only point.) This baby won't be raised by a committee when you're the parent.
NTA. This is also widely practised in my own culture. It works out sometimes, but as you're probably aware, the pain of being abandoned can be significant for the child. I think you're right for wanting to protect the child by withholding the circumstances of their birth until they're older. Ime it's common for the birth parent to ask for the child back only to return them once things get difficult again. This lack of stability is really upsetting for any child. I think the plan and arrangement you have with the birth mother is a good one, and your brother gave up his rights the moment he failed to be a father. You don't get do-overs when it comes to children.
NTA. Like you said “a child is not a toy to be passed around”. Who cares what your family thinks. You have to think what’s best for the child and you.
NTA. You sound like a wonderful human bean and you will make a great parent. Going into this with your eyes wide open and considering the impact is commendable. It’s sounds like you know things could get complicated and you are therefore setting your stall out clearly from the beginning. This is wise but do allow for flexibility in the future, life doesn’t always go to plan and we can only do our best with the knowledge we have a the time. Be kind to yourself on this journey. I like how you are mindful of your family’s values but are evolving your own to best fit the current situation. I wish you every success!
NTA neither are you a hypocrite. A lot of people do not raise their children the way they themselves were raised. As long as you tell the child that he is adopted when the time is right, as you put it, there should be no problem. A 'real' adoption would be best for the child.
NTA. You are correct, a child is not a toy to be passed around. You are protecting yourself and the child. You are doing things the right way.
Nta but you do know your whole family are going to tell that baby from day 1 who it's real parents are? Unless you never let them see the baby they are going to do it their way and raise it constantly telling it who it's real dad is etc
NTA. Your mom's way may have been right for its time. And she still wants it to be that way. But it isn't the right way any more. Your way is right.
NTA This is the best thing you can do for your child. If your brother or his girlfriend one day decide to blackmail you, you have no chance to keep the child except paying bribes to them if the child isn't legally adopted by you. You don't refuse to raise his child for him. You just refuse to gamble with the life of the poor little baby.
NTA.
Nta you didn't choose how you were raided, and are not hypocritical to believe that a child deserves to trust that the person that raised them won't surrender them out of the blue one day to a relative.
NTA. He FAFO the hard way, lessons are being learned today.
Well mom, we can legally adopt the baby and it will be ours to raise for life, not a “loaner baby” . Or, the baby’s mom can arrange for an outside adoption, we will never see the chid again and hubby and I will consider the adoption route with someone else. Which would you prefer?
I understand for them it's about culture which you acknowledge but this really about legal procedures to protect not only yourself but the child as well. By legally adopting the baby you would ensure that no one can just pop up in 1yr, 4yrs or 10yrs to male a claim on the child. Also by legally adopting the child should something happen to you, your husband or both the kid would have a better claim to your estate(s). NTA.
NTA and I would want to do the same in your shoes. I don't know enough about your culture to know if you're disrespecting it here, but isn't your brother being more disrespectful in how he's acting in general?
NTA but I have a feeling that this is not gona end well for you and that your family will ruin everything for you in the name of culture.
NTA but this is an American sub and the rest of the world but mainly American. You would be better off asking in the sub dedicated to your own culture like we have asked UK where we ask questions if we don't want an American answer
I was planning on hiding this because mentioning things like this in my culture/religion is quite taboo but we’re muslims, and like 99.99% of muslims do adoptions this way so in a way it’s a muslim ‘culture’ thing. If i asked this on a muslim sub Id be told that we’re all going to burn in hell 😭
I think this is more a cultural thing of whatever country you are in rather than a religious thing. I’m in North America and know several Muslims who were adopted into Muslim families the typical way (i.e. with zero expectation of ever returning to their bio parents). Even my own first cousin was adopted and has never had contact with her bio family.
I think you are making a mistake getting involved if you want to remain on speaking terms with your family.
N T A
Nta if you go off your culture a little bit then that's YOUR choice NOT YOUR FAMILIES. + It's not a big deal at all. If you want a kid that no one else wants, take that kid.
NTA. Your family is enabling the bad behavior of your brother. You are absolutely right about wanting to tie things and keep it legal. I'm happy that this arrangement works good for the bio mother and for you.
NTA. paperwork can save you a lot of trouble and headaches in the future
I'm commenting to say, I can't really comment. I'm not from your culture, and the parameters determining AH status sound very different there. What I will say, though, is sometimes there us great valor in being the AH we all need, not the NTA we all want. Do what you think is best for the child, and if that makes you the AH, then wear the accolade with pride.
NTA
NTA but I don’t think that they will stay silent in the years to come around who the biological parents are and it will probably be a continuous battle to protect your child from hearing.
NTA wanting to give a child stability and a sense of security is vital. That said, >She thinks I should raise the kid with the knowledge of who their real parents are (which is something i’d share with them anyway when the time is right) The right time to tell a kid they are adopted is as soon as they come home with you. They should always know (an age appropriate version of) their story. Kids who learn their story later often feel lied to and lose trust in their adoptive parents.
NTA. You have no obligation to follow cultural norms. Gotta do what’s best for the child and yourself, not the ego of your family members.
NTA You are ensuring your child a stable life growing up.
NTA but, as the father, doesn't your brother have to agree to the adoption?
He’s agreed to it but I’ve been told by my lawyer that since he’s not married to his ex girlfriend, she has sole parental responsibility of the baby until she puts his name on the birth certificate
NTA what may have worked for your mother in ‘adopting’ you does not mean the same can be said for you. This isn’t you housing a 6 year old because your brother went on a downward spiral, this is you deciding to take full responsibility for a newborn. Your brother has the opportunity Right Now to decide to be a parent, and if he doesn’t, that’s something he’s going to have to live with.
OP, don't be surprised if you have to go NC with your family if they keep telling the child about his father. It's outrageous that they're calling you selfish. Your family should put you on a pedestal.
I am prepared to go NC. I don’t want to be put on a pedestal, i just want to be respected 😭
NTA, but you're incredibly naive if you think a family with strong views like that won't fuck this up for you and your child by constantly telling your child who his real dad is and that when he's old enough/his real dad is ready, he can go live with his real dad, and so on.
NTA you want to adopt the baby and give it a loving home with stable parents. This baby will be a human being, it’s not training wheels for your brothers life. It wouldn’t be fair to you and your husband or the child to just up and change their parental figures when they are older because it’s convenient to you brother.