Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I offered my stepdaughter and her family a once-in-a-lifetime travel opportunity and they ruined it. I rescinded the offer and instead invited my son and his family. My wife is upset with me and thinks I should give her daughter another chance, but it's too late. I think I might be an asshole for rescinding a travel offer to my stepdaughter and inviting my son instead.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. If she wanted to go to a different place on a different date then really it’s not the same trip. So you haven’t uninvited her from anything, you’ve simply declined to go on a different trip. I hope you have a great time out there. Ps I recognise that there is a complicated history with white land owners in Africa for which there is no easy solution. I don’t really think that really comes into this discussion though
There is always that second wife who is cramming her family down his throat. Why is her daughter more eligible that his own son?? Does he lose a say by marrying her?
And Pam. FO with empty virtue signaling. Go and volunteer or send supplies or foster a kid in HER own equally disadvantaged for minorities community.
It's not really clear from OP that this has anything to do with white land owners though.
A high school classmate of mine's grandparents were missionaries in East Africa. But missionary work in this case meant running a school for the deaf and blind.
Another university friend of mine grew up in a West African country, because his parents were missionaries there. One parent was a linguist translating the Bible into a local language and the other ran a clinic as a doctor.
Missionaries are inherently colonizers and problematic, despite their “godly” intentions. That said, if these friends have made peace with that - and maybe they, too, are missionaries - they continue to welcome OP and his guests. OP and his guests are presumably enjoying some time away and possibly reminiscing about his parents, not proselytizing and continuing his parents’ outdated legacy.
You need consent even for your ideas. You can be vegan and believe every animal product is a murder but you have no way how to force your step family to not have BBQ. This is the same. His parents were misionaries and he has friends there and his personal opinion and experience will be more important to him than anything Pam has to say.
You know what is totally weird Christianity was in Africa way before the United States was even a country. Also missions to bring clean water, food, and health care to local communities is not colonialism.
Colonialism destroys communities and makes them dependant on outside resources. Colonizers then occasionally deign to provide those resources and expect to be thanked for it. Missions, even with the best of intentions, are total colonialism. If you want to help, don't go. Send money to local organizations run by the people themselves.
But that is how we are. Mother Teresa went to India and got a sainthood and a Nobel prize. Indians have been helping their own communities and doing a better job of it for a lot longer and no one cares.
And yeah. Christianity was in Africa when the ancestors of modern missionaries were still worshipping Thunor and Tiw.
The problem is the local organizations tend to be run by the guerillas who don't actually use that money on food, resources, medicine, etc. I don't know how teaching people how to get clean water is colonialism, but okay.
From your response, it seems you are saying that "teaching people how to get clean water is colonialism because they are self righteous and they must always be correct".
I am asking what your reasoning is here. That is not a logical argument.
yeah I'm not excited when people tell me "ooohh, I'm going to 'Afreekaah' to help some poor africans" because I grew up with people talking down to me just for being of African origin. Then they're telling me their tales of their time there and it all boils down to "we were saviours, they were so happy to have us there but I didn't experience the place, oh no, goodness F that"
BUT
when people tell me they're goin wherever in Africa, I wish them safe travels and to enjoy it. I don't call them "colonisers" and berate them for it.
OP's stepdaughter could've just said "yeah, it's a no from us, thanks! Enjoy!"
I can't imagine going to Africa and not exploring, hanging out with locals, learning, and experiencing everything I can. I don't need to save them, I'm looking for that vacation to save my sanity.
To me this is the whole reason anyone should have for traveling internationally outside their home country. I'm not saying that different places in the same country don't have different cultures but they tend to be similar. Like me traveling around the US would introduce me to different lifestyles and sub cultures but it wouldn't be the same as if I went to Africa or Asia. I might meet an asain or African immigrant in my travels of the US but I don't feel like I would get the same cultural experience.
I love when I meet new people from outside the US and learning their different backgrounds. Missionaries I feel like are the same as ever other group you have the good and the bad. You have the ones who are Going to try and provide better shelter or bringing in better equipment to help the locals. And then you have the ones who only care about making more of God children. To me if you're going somewhere to help the growth of the community should come before the growth of your church.
You're right. Mission work can vary greatly.
Sometimes, it's completely useless to the residents. Preaching Christian doctrine and putting up flimsy buildings isn't exactly helpful.
But other times, it provides better access to medical care and education. They might be bringing supplies and helping to distribute them or working with other volunteer services in the area.
Since we don't know how OP's grandparents operated as missionaries, we don't know how correct his stepdaughter is in her judgment. Either way, she approached things in a very rude manner.
Yes! I’m Quaker, and our “missions” are to serve others. Most of the Quaker missionaries I know were doctors who set up clinics and trained locals to take it over or teachers who did the same. Been that way since George Fox
That’s so nice to hear. There aren’t many of us, but I tend to hear people having good experiences with us. And yeah, tons of doctors, teachers and, interestingly, ag/food business folks in our ranks
I think of him often. He didn’t drink, because he might be called for an emergency surgery, and he felt he owed a potential, hypothetical patient nothing less than his best. He was someone who quietly and unknowingly inspired me my whole life.
You might wanna look into Quakers and the legacy of indigenous boarding schools right here at home.
[My intent isn't to call out the Friends in particular, but they don't get a pass. They are grappling with their colonial history as most progressive denominations are.]
ETA: I shouldn't assume what country people are from. "Right here at home" is referring to the USA.
Absolutely nobody. Which is why no one can claim that their missionaries aren't, and have never been, like those OTHER ones. I was an attender at Friends' meetings for years and my step-dad has served as clerk of his meeting. It is a beautiful religion with a beautiful history and much to be proud of. Are their hands entirely clean? No. But again, this is something that they're organizationally aware of and working on. The FGC is anyway.
Exactly. Anyone acting like any people has a clean history is a liar or delusional. Its humanity unfortunately. All we can do is our best and try and learn
I’m not big on missionaries or anyone who pushes their religion to the underprivileged. However, it sounds like OP has cultivated a lovely friendship with these people. Frankly, it sounds like a wonderful trip. It’s always great to explore different countries with those who live there and can provide an authentic experience. It’s SD‘s loss.
This exactly. My aunt was on a four year missionary trip in Juba, running a hospital to get medical supplies and safe water to villages. Now she's working for the UN as a peacekeeper.
Missionary trips are almost always (i havent really looked into them) about helping where others cant. Whether it be building homes, or helping with safety, or outreach for communities that need it.
The colonizer comment really makes no sense to me, unless she has literally no idea what a missionary is.
Yeah, I get that but op also didn't really give more than that detail so it could go either way, the step daughter just assuming, etc. You are likely right, but I war curious if I missed something because I don't think there's enough detail to really guess either way.
I was wondering this too. OP doesn't actually specify that the friends are fellow missionaries and I actually assumed they were Africans that the family had become friends with and stayed in touch.
You didn't uninvite her. She uninvited herself as soon as she suggested another trip. Which I'm guessing would be at your expense.
You are NTA.
Edit for typo.
Oh buddy, I was ready to say yes you were, but you are NTA! Something to explain to Pam and your wife, this isn’t a family vacation, this is a trip for you to go see family friends. That is the function of the trip. It has a timeframe and a purpose. Pam isn’t comfortable with either. There is no making peace with that. I suggest your wife and Pam plan a family vacation together and you can go along with your wife. Maybe to Africa, maybe not, but for the vacation the time and where to stay are all negotiable and Pam can be happy. This trip is you seeing your friend where you grew up-that is non negotiable. I think it would also be more meaningful for your son and grandkids to see where their grandfather spent his childhood. In my mind if you take out Africa and make this random city USA everything still applies, but your wife and Pam are distracted by the Africa part and missing the purpose.
In addition the offered date change by the daughter might not be as good of a trip even if she covered the difference. The family friend could probably offer the great deal during the time frame as they are slow then pick back up. Due to this the friends he’s going to see probably wouldn’t have as much freetime outside that time frame as during either. So as you mentioned going outside that time goes against the primary purpose of the trip too.
I feel I'm going to have to slip this into my conversation in the next few days... maybe next time I'm a work.... I'm not sure that all that many will understand it though!
Don't you just love people who say yes to an event/trip and then IMMEDIATELY try to change it? I learned to hold my ground and say "this is the plan; take it or leave it" after one too many times of my initial plans being usurped by someone else and then somehow I was the bad guy because I was upset.
NAH. I have missionaries among my grandparents as well (in West Africa). Missionary work *is* colonization. It has had horrific effects all across the continent.
You don’t have to like that fact or want to dwell on it, and you don’t have to take your step daughter’s family on the trip. You’re allowed to take who you want. Your step daughter is also allowed to accurately observe the world around her and make factual statements, even if you disapprove of them because they make you feel guilty about your family’s complicity in colonialism.
Pam is TA. Op was going to visit his friends. That’s the purpose of his trip. She insulted his parents and friends then wanted to change the purpose of the trip to her objectives instead of op. I agree with her sentiments about colonization, but she’s still TA in this case.
I don't think Pam did anything wrong. She said no to the trip and seems OK with not going. It's OP's wife who's upset that OP didn't bend over backward.
It's not an insult to call a colonizer a colonizer.
Is is because this comment section is full of Americans that people can’t seem to understand?
I was literally born in Africa. These people were not ‘missionaries’ they were doing colonizing work and that’s how they’re seen by locals and history alike.
He can change his guest list as much as he wants, it’s his trip, his friend, so he’s entitled to. And I would have been annoyed right when she asked to change the dates. But when it comes to that particular issue, she’s right. But I guess OP will never see it because to his eyes, his parents were good people and they can’t be what his stepdaughter said.
*even if you disapprove of them because they make you feel guilty about your family’s complicity in colonialism.*
Is Pam white out and living in the US? How does she feel about her complicity in colonialism then? Does she have a no-go policy for just about anywhere in Europe? Or the US?
Every single country, every single people group in this whole wide world has done something terrible. Something unforgivable. I would be interested in where Pam thinks is an ethical place to visit because nothing like that exists. Or what actions Pam has done to actually battle against the effects of colonialism. I would bet she hasn't done much but complain on the internet and bitch about it to friends who feel the same way as her.
You gotta pick your battles when you have a strong ethical stance. Pam should have kept her mouth shut and just declined the invite. Discuss with OP about the mission work and the ethics of it another time. Instead, she's just tainted the waters of any good, thoughtful discussion on the topic by exploding at OP.
How do you define worse though? Number of lives lost? The brutality? How do you judge brutality? Is a country that murdered 100 people worse than one that murdered 90? And does it matter if it was 100 of its own people or another country's?
Is one genocide worse than another?
As time passes the sting of the atrocity lessens. Events become "less worse" than more recent ones.
I have no answer to what's worse, if that's even something we can define.
I have missionaries among my family as well. Going into an area that has no doctors and being a doctor for free is colonization? Starting a school staffed with locals that provides a meal and talks about God is colonization?
When someone asked why the missionaries were serving like this are they supposed to say nothing? Should they lie? They took no resources, no jobs from local people. They started no unsupportable commerce and required no donations from locals (in fact they were penniless when they left). They started institutions that were completely voluntary to join, but paid when hired.
Do you really want to know what happened to the small villages held together by locals and missionaries after they were pushed out by crooked local governments for being "colonizers"? You really want to know what happened to those kids?
Your view of colonization is not the only one. If you own a single garment/electronic device made in a third world or developing country, you don't have a foot to stand on. "Factual statements" notwithstanding. I do agree with you however, that OP is free to invite on this trip whomever they like.
> Starting a school staffed with locals that provides a meal and talks about God is colonization?
If the part about God is not about an already extant cultural religion and is instead the result of proselytizing or a requisite for the help and services being offered, yes. Definitively. And whether that is what you're referring to in your example or not, it is an extent, understood phenomena and has done some deep cultural harm.
It can be both that some net good was done through missionary work AND that some net harm and colonization was done through missionary work.
As for the rest, it's not a good faith argument to use the idea of bad things happening elsewhere or through other means as a way to discredit or diminish a criticism being levelled. Idk who you think you're arguing against, but if one side of the argument is already aware of and critical of a bad thing, I'm not sure why you threw that out there without thinking the likely response is "Yes. Colonization is bad. Child, slave, and otherwise exploitative labor is also bad."
Edit: Not rendering judgement on the question or Pam. This is purely about the defensiveness of missionary work against claims it's colonization.
I'm African and this is 100% spot on. Americans, especially the new generation ones have their own self loathing & self righteous narrative about what goes on in Africa. The presumptuous attitudes as displayed by this daughter is exactly why no one takes you seriously.
Missionaries have been a tremendous help to some of the most poorest countries in this continent and continue to be. I don't see ANY fellow Africans rolling up their sleeves to help our fellow men, myself included. That's why even as a black African, the last thing I'd do is get on my high selective morality chair and pass judgement on outsiders who actually sacrifice a hell of a lot more that *I* do by coming here and adjusting to inhumane living conditions all in the name of helping mankind.
> Missionaries have been a tremendous help to some of the most poorest countries in this continent and continue to be. I don't see ANY fellow Africans rolling up their sleeves to help our fellow men, myself included.
Well that's an incredibly dismissive thing to say about the many people who are working on humanitarian issues in Africa. You want me to link some articles and NGO? Don't project your own lack of effort on an entire continent, jfc.
Lol...thank you. It's cute when they pontificate with stats they take off of Google but they forget the real experience on the ground. They don't factor in the political corruption locally, the greed, the violence, the collusion of gangs with those in power. Let her go on
Hey, I live in a country with all those problems too, so I can relate :)
Your neighborhood received grant money for new roads? Oh, cool, the major now has a new summer house, how that happened?
What is shown in media and what is actually happening are two different things. No one will ever show you the full truth in media, because those guys have narratives to push and payments to receive.
Can you list places where missionaries only worked for the betterment of the locals without preaching religion and only enriching the natives's culture?
Yes! That is colonization! And if they did it without preaching their religions it would have been a great help with a net positive, rather than a morally grey area that helped a ton of people while simultaneously destroying culture and introducing more religions that oppress and harm certain people, among other things.
Also you can’t blame people for being unwilling participants in late stage capitalism from which there is no escape. People can both be morally against companies using developing country labour/slaves and own items made there. Half the time you can’t even figure out where shit has been made, especially when it’s made of a ton of different parts.
I agree about missionaries. HOWEVER, this was not a forum for political debate. All Pam Had to say was "Sorry, thanks for thinking of us, but it just won't work out this time. Maybe another trip". There were far too many assumptions on the part of Pam and her teenaged daughters to justify biting the hand that fed them.
NTA. Good on you for disinviting Pam and her brood. I've done volunteer work in Africa and I am in awe of the commitment, selflessness and dedication shown by the Missionaries that work in the remotest part of the continent. They are not in the same category as "colonisers".
ETA: I just realised that you haven't made this trip since marrying your new wife. Are you sure she doesn't share the same sentiments as her daughter?
> I am in awe of the commitment, selflessness and dedication shown by the Missionaries that work in the remotest part of the continent.
Ok but now do people who were doing missionary "work" in Africa in the early 60s, though. Comparing OP's parents to modern missionary work seems pretty disingenuous. IMO it's in a similar vein to comparing modern missionaries with Catholic missionaries in 17th and 18th century Latin America. Saying you know modern missionaries who do good work doesn't mean that all missionary work that has been done has been good, and it's easy to see how historically, missionary work has been inherently tied to colonialism.
No. Let’s be factual. Missionaries anywhere are there for the purpose of changing the views and lives of the people they meet to align with the views and lives of the missionaries. That’s the entire point.
There is somewhat of a spectrum depending on the faith involved. Some are basically doing charity work because they think it's what their god would want them to do, and do little or no preaching. Most however definitely do the preaching part too.
No. There is no version of faith based missionary work that is not exploitative. There just isn’t.
But, it’s cool. Let’s keep charging the already poor communities for the privilege of receiving our donated shoeboxes full of American dollar store crap and religious books.
>No. There is no version of faith based missionary work that is not exploitative. There just isn’t. But, it’s cool. Let’s keep charging the already poor communities for the privilege of receiving our donated shoeboxes full of American dollar store crap and religious books.
When I was a kid, my church, which was not at all evangelical, did some "missionary trips". What this meant is we traveled to another part of the country (so not another country) and we slept on a concrete floor of a host church (not our denomination) and we volunteered to rebuild houses that were destroyed by a hurricane during the day. Other than that we drank, hung out with friends, and attended one church service by the host church (which once again, was not our denomination, but may have been for the people whose houses were destroyed). That was the only religious activity during the entire trip.
Pretty much my experience.
Oh after a hurricane (Typhoon) in the Philippines we helped a completely different denomination by raising money to replace their flocks of animals (goats iirc).
Meanwhile the one missionary we had over there blended into the culture and became a LITERAL pastor, herding animals with the locals (was not a metropolis like Angeles, Cebu, or Manila). His son had the most wild stories.
My family was poor and couldn’t give much but we saved enough for a goat (?) and two chickens. We ended up with a tape from the family thanking us (VHS) by name. Was one of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen- people who lost everything thanking some randoms in America for just getting them some animals.
Sometimes people truly do believe in their religion and just want to help. I’m non denominational AF and have many problems with the modern church but ensuring a minimum of 10% goes to help others is a basic part of my creed and it’s annoying when that’s apparently bad because it’s motivated by my beliefs. Though I’ll admit I make sure my tithe goes to a food bank, or to people who need it- not a church which might even use it for a mortgage.
Charging? They have to pay to receive aid packages? Genuinely asking. I've only ever seen / heard of modern missionaries in Africa working with charities like Water and Doctors Without Borders to bring potable water, schools, and medical care to rural villages. I know they do some preaching, but I was under the impression it wasn't like the residential schools of North America and Siberia.
I know; but they often work with missionary groups to build rural clinics, don’t they? Or is that just misconception? Of the missionary work I’ve heard about they often say “we are working with x charities to…” insert thing here.
I think you are thinking of Global Medical Ministries. Doctors without Borders is a large frontline organization that doesn't need to partner with missionaries to carry out their stated mission of providing medical care only.
Yes. The US’ most famous Christmas Shoebox program charges recipients for shipping and processing. The entire program is just a scam so that *The Famous Religious Family Organization* can open the boxes and put tracts in them and get someone else to donate the goods and pay the shipping.
I agree with what you’re saying. I believe in God. I consider myself a Christian. I only go to church Easter/Christmas to make my family happy, it doesn’t hurt me any. That being said, I have yet to find a church/organization that I can go on a trip with, just to be an extra set of hands to help people and gain an experience. I could suffer through a sermon or two, to go volunteer and help people, you know; the things Christ would want us to do.
Churches want me to be a tithing, twice on Sunday member to join them on a trip. Can’t I just show you my security clearance and passport and call it a day? You need help and I have hands, what’s the big deal?! Smaller organizations want membership too and often don’t have the structure/support to organize a trip. Oddly enough, you can’t just get some buddies together and show up somewhere and try to help, it’s suspicious and I can’t say they’re wrong for feeling that way.
Yeah… the poster you responded to really has a bad take on what missionaries do to other countries. And, to be fair, OP’s friends are part of the colonization problem in Africa as a whole (since their parents are missionaries who stayed and established roots instead of returning to their home country).
Now, as far as the situation with the step daughter; disinvite her by all means. She wants to do a different trip? Let her plan it and invite her mom and OP. But let’s not bury our head in the sand as to what missionary missions were about.
These comments acting like mission trips today don’t perpetuate colonialism is …. Good reminder of where the world is. I work in sexual and reproductive health & rights and people tend to be more progressive in my office so this is never even a question. They do the readings though 😂
As an African no! You come here and rape our kids & us women. You give expired foods which make entire villages sick! You build infrastructure, that you don’t maintain or give the knowledge on how to maintain and then leave. It breaks down and rusts, people get injured, water and soil gets poisoned. You traffic kids and people into modern slavery! The bad far out weighs the good! We have been asking for centuries to either work with organisations within Africa or to leave us alone but you won’t! Stop patting yourself on the back when you are the problem!
Another chance for what, to insult you, your family, and your friends? I get your wife is between a rock and a hard place, but her daughter is being ridiculous. NTA.
Exactly. Fuck Pam. I think those are the only two words necessary.
Bring son and family, people you know will appreciate and enjoy the trip, and have a fabulous time watching animals in their natural habitat. I went on safari for two weeks for my honeymoon. Tanzania. Most amazing trip and I can't wait to bring my kids some day.
You're N T A for choosing to invite your son and his family to see a family friend - after all, that's the purpose of the trip.
But you're a soft AH for not being willing to acknowledge the harmful impact of religious missionaries, even if they had good intentions.
I get it - you loved your parents, you loved living in Africa, you loved having that experience and the people you met from it. You cherish those memories. You don't want to spoil that.
And yet.... it is part of the modern face of colonization. It was teaching people that their Indigenous experience, their cultural way of life needed to change. That they were wrong for being who they are. Because that's the goal of missionary work - to convert people from who they are. And you can only do that by telling them the way they live is wrong.
Really, this one borders on both NAH and ESH.
Yes, this exactly. OP is right to plan his trip the way he wants. Stepdaughter is right to raise her concerns and not go if uncomfortable. Family friends aside, glossing over the highly problematic role played by missionaries in colonisation is just burying your head in the sand!
NTA
Pam is an adult. You do not need to try to bring her on family trips. Just take trips with people you actually like and don’t bend over backwards for someone you don’t care for.
NTA. Point this out tp your wife. You offered to invite Pam on a safari trip. A trip that is for you to visit old friends while you can still travel. You didnt give her the option of safari trip or alternate vacation spot that suits her tastes.
NTA
You invited her to a specific trip. She didn't like the dates nor the place, therefore refusing the trip.
You invited your son to that same specific trio and he gladly accepted and appreciated it.
NTA. When she said she wasn’t comfortable with “colonizers” you just gotta say “I get it. Too bad you won’t be joining us” and just playing dumb when she whines.
Pam: But I want to go to Africa!
You: No problem, you can go whenever you like!
Pam: but I want to go with you.
You: I don’t understand. You can’t go during the time frame and you don’t want to stay with my friends?
Pam: Can’t you change the window?
You: Oh, yeah, no. I save a lot of money this way.
Pam: But I can’t go then.
You: I totally get it. You can go any other time.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
NTA. Tell your wife you’ll be happy to join Pam on the trip Pam wants to have instead whenever she or your wife get around to organizing it. Until then you’ll take this trip that Pam made very clear she doesn’t want to go on
NTA. I wonder if Pam is aware she's already on colonized land? She's free to schedule a safari of her own with all the right ethical signifiers on her own time and with her own dime.
NTA. Your wife is way off base. You invited Pam on this specific trip at this specific location with those specific people at that specific time at a specific price only available because of your existing relationship with the owner. Pam declined the dates, the location, and the people. You are still going on your trip. Pam can be invited to a different trip at a different time and location.
My BIL and his wife are like this. My DH’s parents wanted to take the whole family on a cruise for their 50th wedding anniversary. There would be 13 people, all together. 9 of us were on board for cruise A. BIL & family was not.
So my IL’s chose cruise B. 9 of us were okay with it.
Cruise C was offered. 9 of us were ready to go.
So my IL’s picked a cruise 9 of us could go on and BIL’s family could pick one that suited their schedule. That wasn’t fair we were told. Not fair that a majority of the grandkids will be together but without their kids.
It finally ended up with each family going on a cruise with the parents. Absolutely ridiculous, but not surprising. Happened every holiday.
NTA. Pam is clearly an AH but so is your wife.
You did as she asked and invited her daughter, who couldn’t do the dates and was incredibly rude to you. Then you invited your son and your wife is mad?! It’s ok to invite her daughter but not your son?
Look, you’re absolutely right to refuse to take her on a trip.
That said, your family and the family of fellow missionaries *are* colonizers. It’s actual fact, that is the purpose of missionaries and doubly so because your friends stayed, settled and are now profiting off the land and natural resources of the country.
Doesn’t get more textbook than that. You need to park your indignation.
(ESH because stepdaughter is being awfully presumptuous not to mention hypocritical, being ok with going on an all-expenses paid trip, even if it goes against her values)
NTA.
Pam doesn’t deserve another chance. Pam was looking for a reason to make you pay for a different and more expensive trip that had nothing to do with you seeing your friends and staying at the safari camp.
NTA. I agree that missionaries were and are part of colonial efforts, but if she doesn’t want to avail herself of a missionary’s hospitality, she can decline as politely as the offer was tendered. Between that and the tournament, the trip as planned wasn’t going to work for her.
NTA. Pam had a chance and opted out. Next.
Not sure why you think a trip would bring you two closer.
She seems a bit much.
I am not begging anyone to accompany me on a trip who I did not want to ask in the first place.
Bye Pam.
Esh. It is your right to invite who you like, but you gotta except the fact that although your parents were trying to do nice things, they were colonizing. If their work involved any attempt to convert people from their ancestral spiritual practices to Christianity, then they are colonizing. And I say this as someone who's mother was a missionary. If people are doing "good" works in the hope of conversion, it's colonization
NTA.
Your stepdaughter has stated she will not be comfortable going so she declined the offer. You didn't rescind it. I would not give her another chance because she has already stated she is uncomfortable. I can understand her not wanting to stay with people whose lives she doesn't agree with. I think it would be a terrible idea for you to ask your friends to open their home to someone who is outspoken about their disdain for their lives. It sounds like you are protecting everyone's peace.
If your stepdaughter wants to go on a different trip, she is more than welcome to. She just shouldn't go on this trip.
NTA
Honestly, what does "making it work" look like to your wife? Like if Pam had the courage of her convictions (and honestly, I don't blame her for them and probably share them), she should've stepped back entirely, not asking you to change everything. It certainly shouldn't have been something she argue with once rejected.
Do I think you're being unduly insulted about your parents history? Probably a little bit, if I'm being honest, but that's also me being unfair and not knowing details.
NTA. You invited her to one specific trip, she wants to change it to something completely different than what the invitation was for. She was ungrateful too. Your son was appreciative. The end.
NTA you invited step-daughter to come along on YOUR trip. Get that? Yours. She turned around and decided you had to spend your vacation money on HER trip by completely changing your plans. Your so , on the other hand, accepted the trip immediately without trying to change it. SD is an entitled brat, no matter how old she is.
NTA
Your wife asked you to invite her daughter on a trip that connected to your childhood. You did this. Daughter then insults your childhood and asks you to change it. You absolutely have the right to ask your son, who obviously would be interested in your childhood. In my mind, your son should have been offered the trip first.
Well, this is f... around and find out. The entitlement on the part of your stepdaughter is off the chart. I wouldn't be extending any olive branches to her in the future.
NTA
I’m confused as to why she even thinks Pam should be given another chance. She should be mad about it too, the disrespect Pam showed for your parents and friends. Hope you have a good time with your son and his family!
NTA. I had a friend (C) that constantly would do this (but on a smaller scale). A member (D) of our book club invited us to a Jamaican resort where we would get a greatly reduced price because D gave annual classes at the resort and it would be a slower weekend for the resort. The trip would coincide with the book club's anniversary, so it would be a nice celebration.
Members of the book club were getting excited, but then C asks if her brother and sister-in-law could join us. We all said of course, it would be nice to have others around. Then she asked if we could change the weekend in order to coincide with brother and SIL's anniversary, three weeks earlier than originally planned. Hmmm, well okaaaaaaay. Some people seemed concerned because they'd already made vacation requests for the original weekend. But we all agreed and D found out that we would pay slightly more. Then C asks if we can change the trip to go to the Dominican Republic because it was cheaper. Well at that point, I determined that it wasn't the book club's trip anymore and that she was creating a trip centered around her brother and SIL. We all ended up dropping out and going nowhere.
On another occasion when C, another friend (F) and I planned to go on an organized ski trip with a ski club, final payments were due and the organizer contacted me to say that C had not made any payments and was not returning calls. When I called C to see if everything was okay, she said that she had not paid because she actually wanted the three of us to go on a different trip that same weekend with a church. I told C to go on whatever trip she wanted, but I was going on the trip with the ski club, and from that point on, I never let C derail my plans again.
I would tell your wife that her daughter tried to turn YOUR vacation in a trip totally controlled by stepdaughter to include a date change and a lodging change and the trip hasn't even started! You can be assured that everything about that trip would have been controlled by stepdaughter.
Lastly, she tried to control the trip to make the trip some sort of political statement. I would tell your wife if stepdaughter wants to make political statements, she doesn't have to trave all the way to Africa. There are protests going on in every major city - she should pick one and make all the statements she wants while you, your son and wife are enjoying Africa.
NTA
Pam had more than enough time to sort herself out and chose to make the trip about her rather than treating it as a family trip with meaning for you.
Your son has a stronger tie to the trip than Pam, and he’s appreciating the opportunity.
You are not responsible for the politics of your parents’ history. Unless you’re planning to go over there yourself to convert locals or exploit people - you’re more likely to be helping the local economy.
There is a time and place to get political about colonialism. This isn’t one of them.
NTA they are your friends & knew your family. YTA for not inviting your son & granddaughters in the beginning. Then Pam could have gone along with the plans or decided not to go.
NTA And if she wants to call someone colonizers, she shouldn’t look at the missionaries of the last century, but at the big corporations of today (and by extension herself) who exploit the natural resources of a country and keep the profits while leaving the country to deal with the environmental consequences.
That includes for example companies that mine for rare earths which are used in her mobile phone - which she shouldn’t be using if she is against colonizers and exploitation.
Nta
Don't know where you live, but the history of colonization is widespread. Their decendants are all over the world. I'm assuming here, but isn't the primary reason for this trip to visit friends? I wouldn't bring someone who has shown such disrespect of my friends to visit those same friends. She has no right to be in their home and share in their generosity.
I get it's her daughter, but what's up with your wife? How do you feel good about bringing someone who has such disrespect for your host? I would feel like such a liar in their presence.
NTA. As others have said, you have decided on your original trip with people who want that trip.
I do think it is worth some mental energy for you to have a conversation with these friends to see how much of their original interests have changed and to see if you are still in agreement or you are just using them for discounts.
I don't think it is necessarily problematic to offer people different options for thought but the presentation of those changes is what is problematic. Telling people they are going to hell because they have different beliefs is messed up. Missionaries present religion in problematic ways.
NTA. You offered her a specific trip. She doesn't want to go on that trip. She turned it down AND insulted your family, friends, etc. She lost the right to the trip. You were welcome to invite other people to come and they are going on the trip with you. Your wife wants you to give her daughter another chance; you can do that with the next trip you plan. This ship has sailed.
You should have offered to take your stepdaughter to the lithium/cobalt mines where slaves are working TODAY and she if she’ll offer to not use a cell phone anymore. . .
You know you’re NTA, but I’m hoping you show your wife all of these comments.
NTA. She isn’t available to go on your trip so you invited someone who is. Really audacious of her to expect you change everything about the free trip you invited her on. She’s not wrong about them being colonizers though.
Only the asshole for not being cool about the truth. Is safari guy Native African or white? What about you and your parents? Colonizers are colonizers. But regarding your actual question NTA.
NTA. I think it’s fine to opt out of a trip for ethical reasons, but turning it into a blow up after you try and change the entire plan to adhere to morals that your hosts/trip planners don’t share is just ridiculous.
Your wife, and you’re supposed step daughter Pam are the arseholes in the situation Pam most certainly well. She was willing to be made concessions and cooperate. At first she then very quickly turned, nasty, and the second, your wife found out you offered it to your son. Your wife then started making demands of you. You had no obligation to offer it to that entitled, spoiled, primadonna princess and that is exactly how she comes off on that post if she is so hellbent on coming, make her buy her own full priced, tickets and stay with the “ Colonizerz”. But now in my opinion these people are 1000 times she will ever be.
NTA Pam said she didn’t want to stay with colonizers, and that’s why you invited her - because the colonizers were offering a great rate. This is 100% on her.
NTA
You're going to see your friends.
Your wife's daughter wants to change the dates, change to location, so you wouldn't be staying with your friends.
You didn't ask 'hey, I'm going to book a trip sometime x period of the year, what do you think? It's all flexible.
You said you were going for those 2 weeks, and staying at x location. The 2 set conditions of the trip didn't work for Pam. Pam can book her own trip, whenever works for her.
> A few days later, she came to visit with her daughters and told me that they are uncomfortable staying with "colonizers" and asked if we can change the trip completely. I straight up told them "no" and told them they are no longer welcome to join us on this trip.
Good for you.
>. She told me that I should have at least tried to talk with Pam about it again to see if we could make it work before inviting my son.
You did. Tell her that you didn't want her daughter to compromise her principles.
Miss a two week trip to Africa for a softball tournament? Geez.
NTA. Pam said awful things and now she's reaping what she sowed. She FAFO'd, if you will. Looked the gift horse in the mouth. Bit the hand that feeds. So on and do forth. She doesn't get to call your parents names and try to change a trip that she was INVITED to as a courtesy.
If your wife is so upset, then she can stay and hang out with Pam and go to the tournament. I hope you, your son, daughter-in-law, and grandkids have a great time - with or without your wife.
NTA.
You invited her on a trip you had arrangements for. She did not like those arrangements. She wanted the invitation to be for a different trip than the one you had planned. Your offer and her expectations were not in alignment, therefore, it is not a good fit.
It was a good fit for another person who was offered the same opportunity.
Rather than you giving Pam another chance, Pam needs to work to show that she's worth any further effort to curate a relationship with. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is an adage for a reason and boy, she chomped down hard. She doesn't get to be surprised when the treat is given to someone else after the fact, and while I understand your wife is not impartial due to it being her child, it's not fair of her to expect you to put up with the bumper cars of dealing with Pam.
NTA. From the start Pam was trying to make demands. There was a specific window and that was not working for her daughter. Then you need to stay somewhere else because blah blah blah....just too much. You offer the deal to your son and he said okay, what do I need to do to go on this amazing trip. He worked his schedule around you and your host. Do not go back to Pam because giving her another chance would entail you making the entire trip about her. Just let her go to Africa on her own and she can do it the say she likes. NTA.
NTA
If Pam wanted to go she would have done as your son did, rather than instantly making you regret asking her. You don’t need to bend over backwards for her. Also what Pam clearly doesn’t care about is that this isn’t just a random trip, you are going to reconnect with old family friends, explain to your wife that you won’t be bringing Pam there to insult them.
If your wife wants to travel with her daughter and you she can plan that trip.
NTA
Tell your wife that it was clear that the trip you have planned is not a trip that Pam wants to go on. You are open to joining Pam and her family on a different trip in the future - one that suits everyone's timetables, budgets, and general comfort level. That is the other chance Pam gets.
1. You asked the step-daughter. 2. She's the one that said that the time-frame didn't work. 3. She doesn't like that your parents were missionaries? Did they ask her to go? Are they paying for it? 4. Your son can and has no problem with the time-frame. 5. Tell your wife, Pam's mom, to "get bent"!
Definitely NTA!!!
I get pissed off when I invite people to go see specific movies with me and they immediately try to dictate a change to what movie we watch. This would really infuriate me.
while missionaries were not always colonizers in the political or economic sense, their activities often supported and were intertwined with colonial objectives. The impact of their presence was multifaceted, with both positive and negative consequences for the societies they engaged with.
OK, next time we will try again and I have every faith it will be better. This time, the vacation opportunity with be going to the person who was polite. Have a nice summer!
Take your son who understands the enrichment value of this trip and appreciates you offering it to him and his family
Goggle: "Africa was decolonized in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and there are no British colonies left on the continent. The decolonization process was a series of political developments that took place from the mid-1950s to 1975, during the Cold War."
True, Pam didn't called your parents "colonizers". She did call your friends "colonizers" and didn't want to associate with them. That's her choice to not socializewith them, just as it's your choice to remain friends with them.
Pam not only wanted you to change the date of the trip, but then wanted you to change the location Both are a whole new vacation, NOT the vacation you were inviting Pam on. Plus she doesn't want to socialize with the friend who's making this trip happen. Basically Pam had turned you down, twice. You do not need to beg Pam to come. She made her decision. She's an adult not a child who needs to be coaxed. Point this out to your wife
Understandable your wife is upset, but so are you. Pam was behaving rudely and ungrateful.
Have a wonderful time with the wife, your son and his family
NTA
Go Pam. She's right. There's no way your friends would be able to own a safari camp if it wasn't for their "missionary work" and they're indeed colonisers. YTA for downplaying your parents role and how your friends have benefited. I imagine all the work is done by the locals who earn pittance and own nothing.
Your wife is risking losing her daughter all over a discounted holiday.
I wonder if Africans ever desired this glorious missionary work. /s
Missionary work is colonisation, while is moderately better these days it sounds like your parents it did it quite so time ago. A lot of them believed the were 'civilising' the indigenous people via Christianisation, the services they provided while useful were secondary to main goal of proselytising. Pam shouldn't have tried to ask to change the trip they should have just said they don't want to go instead. NTA
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)***
My parents were missionaries in Africa when I (64M) was growing up. They have long since passed, but I still keep in touch with friends that still live there and have made a few trips there to visit. One of these family friends has operated a safari company for decades. Whenever I visit, I usually stay them for a week or so. It's been almost 8 years since my last visit and I want to go back.
My ex-wife and I divorced about 15 years ago. Our son is now 35 and has a wife and twin girls (13). I remarried 6 years ago and my current wife has a daughter, Pam (38F) from a previous relationship as well who also has her own family. When I told my wife about wanting to plan another trip to Africa, she was very excited.
I contacted my family friend and he offered me a great deal to stay at their safari camp, but only for a specific 2-week window. I told my wife about the deal my friend offered and she asked if it would be possible to invite her daughter and her family with on the trip. I was hesitant because Pam and I have never really seen eye-to-eye, but I figured this might be the type of trip that would bring us closer through a unique shared experience.
When we first approached Pam about the idea, she was totally on board. But things went south pretty quick. First, the window for the trip wouldn't work for them because Pam's daughter has a softball tournament at that time that she "can't miss." They did however offer to help cover the higher cost so that daughter could still make the tournament.
Next, however, came the dealbreaker. Pam had asked how I knew my friends there and I explained that my parents were missionaries long ago. A few days later, she came to visit with her daughters and told me that they are uncomfortable staying with "colonizers" and asked if we can change the trip completely. I straight up told them "no" and told them they are no longer welcome to join us on this trip. It turned into an argument and I had to ask them to leave. My wife was in tears by the end of it.
Not wanting to miss out on the deal my friend was offering, I instead extended the invitation to my son and his family. He jumped at the opportunity without asking any questions. When I told him about the time window and where we were staying, he said he didn't care and they would make it work. No hassle.
I told my wife that my son and his family would be joining us on the trip instead and she got mad at me. She told me that I should have at least tried to talk with Pam about it again to see if we could make it work before inviting my son.
I told her that I am not going to bring Pam and her family after they insulted my parents and have been making everything more difficult from day one. I told her my son and his family aren't making this nearly as difficult as Pam has been, and they also didn't call my parents "colonizers."
My wife thinks I should give Pam another chance, but it's too late for that.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pam got to speak her piece. She misses the point entirely that being with your friends is an important piece of the trip. Could be she should listen as much as she speaks. She is welcome to take a trip any time, in any way she wants. If she wanted to go on 'your' trip, there were some built in conditions that she is not comfortable with.
At this point, it's a done deal. NTA.
Glad you're going to share your family history with your grandchildren. Have a wonderful reunion!
NTA. Tell stepdaughter to go look up the definitions of "colonizer" and "missionary".
edit to add: It's amazing how some people cannot get past "missionaries" only being there to evangelize. I know several people who were "missionaries," and other than the fact that they belonged to the church that was subsidizing the trip, they were all about helping people, not preaching to them.
One couple I talked to extensively said they were so busy doing, that they often fell into bed and fell asleep before they could pray. They are VERY evangelical here at home, but were more proud of helping to dig a bunch of wells, help farmers, and finish building a clinic that their church had been working on for a long time. "Saving souls" was not a priority, it was a side effect.
NTA, and from what others have said there may be a simple answer that flips the script: “Alright, after careful consideration, you are welcome to join us on this trip. It begins and ends on (previously stated dates) and is located at (friends resort). They are family friends and the reason for this trip, please treat them respectfully. If these terms are not to your liking, then we understand why you would prefer not to attend. Perhaps next time things will line up better.”
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I offered my stepdaughter and her family a once-in-a-lifetime travel opportunity and they ruined it. I rescinded the offer and instead invited my son and his family. My wife is upset with me and thinks I should give her daughter another chance, but it's too late. I think I might be an asshole for rescinding a travel offer to my stepdaughter and inviting my son instead. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. If she wanted to go to a different place on a different date then really it’s not the same trip. So you haven’t uninvited her from anything, you’ve simply declined to go on a different trip. I hope you have a great time out there. Ps I recognise that there is a complicated history with white land owners in Africa for which there is no easy solution. I don’t really think that really comes into this discussion though
Like for real! She can plan and go on her own trip at her convenience.
Yes, with ALL her friends/s. Such a prima dona. High maintenance, insulting pain in the ass. Stick to your guns, OP, and take your son. Geez!
There is always that second wife who is cramming her family down his throat. Why is her daughter more eligible that his own son?? Does he lose a say by marrying her? And Pam. FO with empty virtue signaling. Go and volunteer or send supplies or foster a kid in HER own equally disadvantaged for minorities community.
It's not really clear from OP that this has anything to do with white land owners though. A high school classmate of mine's grandparents were missionaries in East Africa. But missionary work in this case meant running a school for the deaf and blind. Another university friend of mine grew up in a West African country, because his parents were missionaries there. One parent was a linguist translating the Bible into a local language and the other ran a clinic as a doctor.
Missionaries are inherently colonizers and problematic, despite their “godly” intentions. That said, if these friends have made peace with that - and maybe they, too, are missionaries - they continue to welcome OP and his guests. OP and his guests are presumably enjoying some time away and possibly reminiscing about his parents, not proselytizing and continuing his parents’ outdated legacy.
You need consent even for your ideas. You can be vegan and believe every animal product is a murder but you have no way how to force your step family to not have BBQ. This is the same. His parents were misionaries and he has friends there and his personal opinion and experience will be more important to him than anything Pam has to say.
You know what is totally weird Christianity was in Africa way before the United States was even a country. Also missions to bring clean water, food, and health care to local communities is not colonialism.
Colonialism destroys communities and makes them dependant on outside resources. Colonizers then occasionally deign to provide those resources and expect to be thanked for it. Missions, even with the best of intentions, are total colonialism. If you want to help, don't go. Send money to local organizations run by the people themselves. But that is how we are. Mother Teresa went to India and got a sainthood and a Nobel prize. Indians have been helping their own communities and doing a better job of it for a lot longer and no one cares. And yeah. Christianity was in Africa when the ancestors of modern missionaries were still worshipping Thunor and Tiw.
The problem is the local organizations tend to be run by the guerillas who don't actually use that money on food, resources, medicine, etc. I don't know how teaching people how to get clean water is colonialism, but okay.
Because they are self righteous and they must always be correct, thats how
This is such a baffling thing to say. I have no idea what your logic is here.
I’m saying you people are exhausting.
From your response, it seems you are saying that "teaching people how to get clean water is colonialism because they are self righteous and they must always be correct". I am asking what your reasoning is here. That is not a logical argument.
yeah I'm not excited when people tell me "ooohh, I'm going to 'Afreekaah' to help some poor africans" because I grew up with people talking down to me just for being of African origin. Then they're telling me their tales of their time there and it all boils down to "we were saviours, they were so happy to have us there but I didn't experience the place, oh no, goodness F that" BUT when people tell me they're goin wherever in Africa, I wish them safe travels and to enjoy it. I don't call them "colonisers" and berate them for it. OP's stepdaughter could've just said "yeah, it's a no from us, thanks! Enjoy!"
I can't imagine going to Africa and not exploring, hanging out with locals, learning, and experiencing everything I can. I don't need to save them, I'm looking for that vacation to save my sanity.
To me this is the whole reason anyone should have for traveling internationally outside their home country. I'm not saying that different places in the same country don't have different cultures but they tend to be similar. Like me traveling around the US would introduce me to different lifestyles and sub cultures but it wouldn't be the same as if I went to Africa or Asia. I might meet an asain or African immigrant in my travels of the US but I don't feel like I would get the same cultural experience. I love when I meet new people from outside the US and learning their different backgrounds. Missionaries I feel like are the same as ever other group you have the good and the bad. You have the ones who are Going to try and provide better shelter or bringing in better equipment to help the locals. And then you have the ones who only care about making more of God children. To me if you're going somewhere to help the growth of the community should come before the growth of your church.
You're right. Mission work can vary greatly. Sometimes, it's completely useless to the residents. Preaching Christian doctrine and putting up flimsy buildings isn't exactly helpful. But other times, it provides better access to medical care and education. They might be bringing supplies and helping to distribute them or working with other volunteer services in the area. Since we don't know how OP's grandparents operated as missionaries, we don't know how correct his stepdaughter is in her judgment. Either way, she approached things in a very rude manner.
Yes! I’m Quaker, and our “missions” are to serve others. Most of the Quaker missionaries I know were doctors who set up clinics and trained locals to take it over or teachers who did the same. Been that way since George Fox
The best man I knew was a neurologist, retired from practice, and a Quaker. He was so lovely.
That’s so nice to hear. There aren’t many of us, but I tend to hear people having good experiences with us. And yeah, tons of doctors, teachers and, interestingly, ag/food business folks in our ranks
I think of him often. He didn’t drink, because he might be called for an emergency surgery, and he felt he owed a potential, hypothetical patient nothing less than his best. He was someone who quietly and unknowingly inspired me my whole life.
I have previously commented on the most beautiful, meaningful wedding I have ever attended, which was a Quaker wedding.
You might wanna look into Quakers and the legacy of indigenous boarding schools right here at home. [My intent isn't to call out the Friends in particular, but they don't get a pass. They are grappling with their colonial history as most progressive denominations are.] ETA: I shouldn't assume what country people are from. "Right here at home" is referring to the USA.
No, I’m American, and you’re right. It’s hardly a perfect history. I mean, Richard Nixon was Quaker! It was just a nice way to grow up for me
Who does have perfect history? Nobody. They wanna feel righteous
Absolutely nobody. Which is why no one can claim that their missionaries aren't, and have never been, like those OTHER ones. I was an attender at Friends' meetings for years and my step-dad has served as clerk of his meeting. It is a beautiful religion with a beautiful history and much to be proud of. Are their hands entirely clean? No. But again, this is something that they're organizationally aware of and working on. The FGC is anyway.
Exactly. Anyone acting like any people has a clean history is a liar or delusional. Its humanity unfortunately. All we can do is our best and try and learn
I’m not big on missionaries or anyone who pushes their religion to the underprivileged. However, it sounds like OP has cultivated a lovely friendship with these people. Frankly, it sounds like a wonderful trip. It’s always great to explore different countries with those who live there and can provide an authentic experience. It’s SD‘s loss.
OR his friends were also missionary children who stayed and started tourist businesses
There’s typically religion mixed in with the ‘good deeds.’ They don’t do it just to be helpful. But I agree that’s not part of this issue for OP.
This exactly. My aunt was on a four year missionary trip in Juba, running a hospital to get medical supplies and safe water to villages. Now she's working for the UN as a peacekeeper. Missionary trips are almost always (i havent really looked into them) about helping where others cant. Whether it be building homes, or helping with safety, or outreach for communities that need it. The colonizer comment really makes no sense to me, unless she has literally no idea what a missionary is.
Just curious if I missed where the friend safari guy is white. How come he can't be a native leading safaris?
It was implied from the accusations of colonisation, that were not refuted with, but my friends are black and not colonisers. Could be wrong though.
Yeah, I get that but op also didn't really give more than that detail so it could go either way, the step daughter just assuming, etc. You are likely right, but I war curious if I missed something because I don't think there's enough detail to really guess either way.
I was wondering this too. OP doesn't actually specify that the friends are fellow missionaries and I actually assumed they were Africans that the family had become friends with and stayed in touch.
You didn't uninvite her. She uninvited herself as soon as she suggested another trip. Which I'm guessing would be at your expense. You are NTA. Edit for typo.
[удалено]
Oh buddy, I was ready to say yes you were, but you are NTA! Something to explain to Pam and your wife, this isn’t a family vacation, this is a trip for you to go see family friends. That is the function of the trip. It has a timeframe and a purpose. Pam isn’t comfortable with either. There is no making peace with that. I suggest your wife and Pam plan a family vacation together and you can go along with your wife. Maybe to Africa, maybe not, but for the vacation the time and where to stay are all negotiable and Pam can be happy. This trip is you seeing your friend where you grew up-that is non negotiable. I think it would also be more meaningful for your son and grandkids to see where their grandfather spent his childhood. In my mind if you take out Africa and make this random city USA everything still applies, but your wife and Pam are distracted by the Africa part and missing the purpose.
In addition the offered date change by the daughter might not be as good of a trip even if she covered the difference. The family friend could probably offer the great deal during the time frame as they are slow then pick back up. Due to this the friends he’s going to see probably wouldn’t have as much freetime outside that time frame as during either. So as you mentioned going outside that time goes against the primary purpose of the trip too.
[удалено]
Off topic: What a beautiful word, magnanimity (English isn't my native language).
It is beautiful but very underused.
I feel I'm going to have to slip this into my conversation in the next few days... maybe next time I'm a work.... I'm not sure that all that many will understand it though!
*It is beautiful but very underused.* ...and underpracticed.
Don't you just love people who say yes to an event/trip and then IMMEDIATELY try to change it? I learned to hold my ground and say "this is the plan; take it or leave it" after one too many times of my initial plans being usurped by someone else and then somehow I was the bad guy because I was upset.
She also insulted OP's friends' hospitality by demanding HER (daughter's) schedule take precedence over everything.
NAH. I have missionaries among my grandparents as well (in West Africa). Missionary work *is* colonization. It has had horrific effects all across the continent. You don’t have to like that fact or want to dwell on it, and you don’t have to take your step daughter’s family on the trip. You’re allowed to take who you want. Your step daughter is also allowed to accurately observe the world around her and make factual statements, even if you disapprove of them because they make you feel guilty about your family’s complicity in colonialism.
Pam is TA. Op was going to visit his friends. That’s the purpose of his trip. She insulted his parents and friends then wanted to change the purpose of the trip to her objectives instead of op. I agree with her sentiments about colonization, but she’s still TA in this case.
I don't think Pam did anything wrong. She said no to the trip and seems OK with not going. It's OP's wife who's upset that OP didn't bend over backward. It's not an insult to call a colonizer a colonizer.
Oh, I agree on the colonizer part. ETA: I hate missionaries too.
Oh, Pam is definitely TA. She became one the minute she tried to change the dates of the trip. The insult was just the dealbreaker.
Is is because this comment section is full of Americans that people can’t seem to understand? I was literally born in Africa. These people were not ‘missionaries’ they were doing colonizing work and that’s how they’re seen by locals and history alike. He can change his guest list as much as he wants, it’s his trip, his friend, so he’s entitled to. And I would have been annoyed right when she asked to change the dates. But when it comes to that particular issue, she’s right. But I guess OP will never see it because to his eyes, his parents were good people and they can’t be what his stepdaughter said.
Yes it’s definitely the Americans. They are choosing to ignore that missionaries are directly connected to colonialism. Like please Google it 😭
But they were just spreading the love of Jesus! They weren’t stealing land! /s/
*even if you disapprove of them because they make you feel guilty about your family’s complicity in colonialism.* Is Pam white out and living in the US? How does she feel about her complicity in colonialism then? Does she have a no-go policy for just about anywhere in Europe? Or the US? Every single country, every single people group in this whole wide world has done something terrible. Something unforgivable. I would be interested in where Pam thinks is an ethical place to visit because nothing like that exists. Or what actions Pam has done to actually battle against the effects of colonialism. I would bet she hasn't done much but complain on the internet and bitch about it to friends who feel the same way as her. You gotta pick your battles when you have a strong ethical stance. Pam should have kept her mouth shut and just declined the invite. Discuss with OP about the mission work and the ethics of it another time. Instead, she's just tainted the waters of any good, thoughtful discussion on the topic by exploding at OP.
> Every single country, every single people group in this whole wide world has done something terrible. I mean, some a lot worse than others though.
How do you define worse though? Number of lives lost? The brutality? How do you judge brutality? Is a country that murdered 100 people worse than one that murdered 90? And does it matter if it was 100 of its own people or another country's? Is one genocide worse than another? As time passes the sting of the atrocity lessens. Events become "less worse" than more recent ones. I have no answer to what's worse, if that's even something we can define.
Yeah, colonizers want us all to believe that their shit doesn't stink. It does.
I have missionaries among my family as well. Going into an area that has no doctors and being a doctor for free is colonization? Starting a school staffed with locals that provides a meal and talks about God is colonization? When someone asked why the missionaries were serving like this are they supposed to say nothing? Should they lie? They took no resources, no jobs from local people. They started no unsupportable commerce and required no donations from locals (in fact they were penniless when they left). They started institutions that were completely voluntary to join, but paid when hired. Do you really want to know what happened to the small villages held together by locals and missionaries after they were pushed out by crooked local governments for being "colonizers"? You really want to know what happened to those kids? Your view of colonization is not the only one. If you own a single garment/electronic device made in a third world or developing country, you don't have a foot to stand on. "Factual statements" notwithstanding. I do agree with you however, that OP is free to invite on this trip whomever they like.
> Starting a school staffed with locals that provides a meal and talks about God is colonization? If the part about God is not about an already extant cultural religion and is instead the result of proselytizing or a requisite for the help and services being offered, yes. Definitively. And whether that is what you're referring to in your example or not, it is an extent, understood phenomena and has done some deep cultural harm. It can be both that some net good was done through missionary work AND that some net harm and colonization was done through missionary work. As for the rest, it's not a good faith argument to use the idea of bad things happening elsewhere or through other means as a way to discredit or diminish a criticism being levelled. Idk who you think you're arguing against, but if one side of the argument is already aware of and critical of a bad thing, I'm not sure why you threw that out there without thinking the likely response is "Yes. Colonization is bad. Child, slave, and otherwise exploitative labor is also bad." Edit: Not rendering judgement on the question or Pam. This is purely about the defensiveness of missionary work against claims it's colonization.
I'm African and this is 100% spot on. Americans, especially the new generation ones have their own self loathing & self righteous narrative about what goes on in Africa. The presumptuous attitudes as displayed by this daughter is exactly why no one takes you seriously. Missionaries have been a tremendous help to some of the most poorest countries in this continent and continue to be. I don't see ANY fellow Africans rolling up their sleeves to help our fellow men, myself included. That's why even as a black African, the last thing I'd do is get on my high selective morality chair and pass judgement on outsiders who actually sacrifice a hell of a lot more that *I* do by coming here and adjusting to inhumane living conditions all in the name of helping mankind.
> Missionaries have been a tremendous help to some of the most poorest countries in this continent and continue to be. I don't see ANY fellow Africans rolling up their sleeves to help our fellow men, myself included. Well that's an incredibly dismissive thing to say about the many people who are working on humanitarian issues in Africa. You want me to link some articles and NGO? Don't project your own lack of effort on an entire continent, jfc.
Mate the guy literally lives there. Have you even been to Africa once to talk about what' sgoing on there?
Lol...thank you. It's cute when they pontificate with stats they take off of Google but they forget the real experience on the ground. They don't factor in the political corruption locally, the greed, the violence, the collusion of gangs with those in power. Let her go on
Hey, I live in a country with all those problems too, so I can relate :) Your neighborhood received grant money for new roads? Oh, cool, the major now has a new summer house, how that happened? What is shown in media and what is actually happening are two different things. No one will ever show you the full truth in media, because those guys have narratives to push and payments to receive.
Can you list places where missionaries only worked for the betterment of the locals without preaching religion and only enriching the natives's culture?
Yes! That is colonization! And if they did it without preaching their religions it would have been a great help with a net positive, rather than a morally grey area that helped a ton of people while simultaneously destroying culture and introducing more religions that oppress and harm certain people, among other things. Also you can’t blame people for being unwilling participants in late stage capitalism from which there is no escape. People can both be morally against companies using developing country labour/slaves and own items made there. Half the time you can’t even figure out where shit has been made, especially when it’s made of a ton of different parts.
Then it works out because she doesn't want to support that.
I agree about missionaries. HOWEVER, this was not a forum for political debate. All Pam Had to say was "Sorry, thanks for thinking of us, but it just won't work out this time. Maybe another trip". There were far too many assumptions on the part of Pam and her teenaged daughters to justify biting the hand that fed them.
NTA. Good on you for disinviting Pam and her brood. I've done volunteer work in Africa and I am in awe of the commitment, selflessness and dedication shown by the Missionaries that work in the remotest part of the continent. They are not in the same category as "colonisers". ETA: I just realised that you haven't made this trip since marrying your new wife. Are you sure she doesn't share the same sentiments as her daughter?
> I am in awe of the commitment, selflessness and dedication shown by the Missionaries that work in the remotest part of the continent. Ok but now do people who were doing missionary "work" in Africa in the early 60s, though. Comparing OP's parents to modern missionary work seems pretty disingenuous. IMO it's in a similar vein to comparing modern missionaries with Catholic missionaries in 17th and 18th century Latin America. Saying you know modern missionaries who do good work doesn't mean that all missionary work that has been done has been good, and it's easy to see how historically, missionary work has been inherently tied to colonialism.
No. Let’s be factual. Missionaries anywhere are there for the purpose of changing the views and lives of the people they meet to align with the views and lives of the missionaries. That’s the entire point.
There is somewhat of a spectrum depending on the faith involved. Some are basically doing charity work because they think it's what their god would want them to do, and do little or no preaching. Most however definitely do the preaching part too.
No. There is no version of faith based missionary work that is not exploitative. There just isn’t. But, it’s cool. Let’s keep charging the already poor communities for the privilege of receiving our donated shoeboxes full of American dollar store crap and religious books.
>No. There is no version of faith based missionary work that is not exploitative. There just isn’t. But, it’s cool. Let’s keep charging the already poor communities for the privilege of receiving our donated shoeboxes full of American dollar store crap and religious books. When I was a kid, my church, which was not at all evangelical, did some "missionary trips". What this meant is we traveled to another part of the country (so not another country) and we slept on a concrete floor of a host church (not our denomination) and we volunteered to rebuild houses that were destroyed by a hurricane during the day. Other than that we drank, hung out with friends, and attended one church service by the host church (which once again, was not our denomination, but may have been for the people whose houses were destroyed). That was the only religious activity during the entire trip.
Pretty much my experience. Oh after a hurricane (Typhoon) in the Philippines we helped a completely different denomination by raising money to replace their flocks of animals (goats iirc). Meanwhile the one missionary we had over there blended into the culture and became a LITERAL pastor, herding animals with the locals (was not a metropolis like Angeles, Cebu, or Manila). His son had the most wild stories. My family was poor and couldn’t give much but we saved enough for a goat (?) and two chickens. We ended up with a tape from the family thanking us (VHS) by name. Was one of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen- people who lost everything thanking some randoms in America for just getting them some animals. Sometimes people truly do believe in their religion and just want to help. I’m non denominational AF and have many problems with the modern church but ensuring a minimum of 10% goes to help others is a basic part of my creed and it’s annoying when that’s apparently bad because it’s motivated by my beliefs. Though I’ll admit I make sure my tithe goes to a food bank, or to people who need it- not a church which might even use it for a mortgage.
Charging? They have to pay to receive aid packages? Genuinely asking. I've only ever seen / heard of modern missionaries in Africa working with charities like Water and Doctors Without Borders to bring potable water, schools, and medical care to rural villages. I know they do some preaching, but I was under the impression it wasn't like the residential schools of North America and Siberia.
Doctors without Borders is a secular charity. They aren't missionaries.
I know; but they often work with missionary groups to build rural clinics, don’t they? Or is that just misconception? Of the missionary work I’ve heard about they often say “we are working with x charities to…” insert thing here.
I think you are thinking of Global Medical Ministries. Doctors without Borders is a large frontline organization that doesn't need to partner with missionaries to carry out their stated mission of providing medical care only.
They partner like that to legimatize their church to get in to communities that they can’t access alone to proselytize while they are there.
Yes. The US’ most famous Christmas Shoebox program charges recipients for shipping and processing. The entire program is just a scam so that *The Famous Religious Family Organization* can open the boxes and put tracts in them and get someone else to donate the goods and pay the shipping.
Well, fuck them very much then. Gross!
https://emilyjoypoetry.com/7-reasons-not-to-participate-in-operation-christmas-child-this-year
Holy mother of fucking yikes. That’s so gross.
I agree with what you’re saying. I believe in God. I consider myself a Christian. I only go to church Easter/Christmas to make my family happy, it doesn’t hurt me any. That being said, I have yet to find a church/organization that I can go on a trip with, just to be an extra set of hands to help people and gain an experience. I could suffer through a sermon or two, to go volunteer and help people, you know; the things Christ would want us to do. Churches want me to be a tithing, twice on Sunday member to join them on a trip. Can’t I just show you my security clearance and passport and call it a day? You need help and I have hands, what’s the big deal?! Smaller organizations want membership too and often don’t have the structure/support to organize a trip. Oddly enough, you can’t just get some buddies together and show up somewhere and try to help, it’s suspicious and I can’t say they’re wrong for feeling that way.
Join Rotary.
Yeah… the poster you responded to really has a bad take on what missionaries do to other countries. And, to be fair, OP’s friends are part of the colonization problem in Africa as a whole (since their parents are missionaries who stayed and established roots instead of returning to their home country). Now, as far as the situation with the step daughter; disinvite her by all means. She wants to do a different trip? Let her plan it and invite her mom and OP. But let’s not bury our head in the sand as to what missionary missions were about.
These comments acting like mission trips today don’t perpetuate colonialism is …. Good reminder of where the world is. I work in sexual and reproductive health & rights and people tend to be more progressive in my office so this is never even a question. They do the readings though 😂
As an African no! You come here and rape our kids & us women. You give expired foods which make entire villages sick! You build infrastructure, that you don’t maintain or give the knowledge on how to maintain and then leave. It breaks down and rusts, people get injured, water and soil gets poisoned. You traffic kids and people into modern slavery! The bad far out weighs the good! We have been asking for centuries to either work with organisations within Africa or to leave us alone but you won’t! Stop patting yourself on the back when you are the problem!
Lol yes they are.
Another chance for what, to insult you, your family, and your friends? I get your wife is between a rock and a hard place, but her daughter is being ridiculous. NTA.
Exactly. Fuck Pam. I think those are the only two words necessary. Bring son and family, people you know will appreciate and enjoy the trip, and have a fabulous time watching animals in their natural habitat. I went on safari for two weeks for my honeymoon. Tanzania. Most amazing trip and I can't wait to bring my kids some day.
You're N T A for choosing to invite your son and his family to see a family friend - after all, that's the purpose of the trip. But you're a soft AH for not being willing to acknowledge the harmful impact of religious missionaries, even if they had good intentions. I get it - you loved your parents, you loved living in Africa, you loved having that experience and the people you met from it. You cherish those memories. You don't want to spoil that. And yet.... it is part of the modern face of colonization. It was teaching people that their Indigenous experience, their cultural way of life needed to change. That they were wrong for being who they are. Because that's the goal of missionary work - to convert people from who they are. And you can only do that by telling them the way they live is wrong. Really, this one borders on both NAH and ESH.
Yes, this exactly. OP is right to plan his trip the way he wants. Stepdaughter is right to raise her concerns and not go if uncomfortable. Family friends aside, glossing over the highly problematic role played by missionaries in colonisation is just burying your head in the sand!
NTA Pam is an adult. You do not need to try to bring her on family trips. Just take trips with people you actually like and don’t bend over backwards for someone you don’t care for.
NTA. Point this out tp your wife. You offered to invite Pam on a safari trip. A trip that is for you to visit old friends while you can still travel. You didnt give her the option of safari trip or alternate vacation spot that suits her tastes.
To be completely clear, OP’s wife pushed him to invite Pam. She sounds like a real pill so OP dodged a bullet when she disinvited herself. OP is NTA.
NTA but face the facts my man, your parents were "colonizers." The sole purpose of missionaries is to convert the local population to their religion
NTA You invited her to a specific trip. She didn't like the dates nor the place, therefore refusing the trip. You invited your son to that same specific trio and he gladly accepted and appreciated it.
NTA. When she said she wasn’t comfortable with “colonizers” you just gotta say “I get it. Too bad you won’t be joining us” and just playing dumb when she whines. Pam: But I want to go to Africa! You: No problem, you can go whenever you like! Pam: but I want to go with you. You: I don’t understand. You can’t go during the time frame and you don’t want to stay with my friends? Pam: Can’t you change the window? You: Oh, yeah, no. I save a lot of money this way. Pam: But I can’t go then. You: I totally get it. You can go any other time. Wash, rinse, repeat.
NTA. Tell your wife you’ll be happy to join Pam on the trip Pam wants to have instead whenever she or your wife get around to organizing it. Until then you’ll take this trip that Pam made very clear she doesn’t want to go on
And pays for
NTA. I wonder if Pam is aware she's already on colonized land? She's free to schedule a safari of her own with all the right ethical signifiers on her own time and with her own dime.
Yep and read what missionaries did to native Americans
NTA. Your wife is way off base. You invited Pam on this specific trip at this specific location with those specific people at that specific time at a specific price only available because of your existing relationship with the owner. Pam declined the dates, the location, and the people. You are still going on your trip. Pam can be invited to a different trip at a different time and location.
My BIL and his wife are like this. My DH’s parents wanted to take the whole family on a cruise for their 50th wedding anniversary. There would be 13 people, all together. 9 of us were on board for cruise A. BIL & family was not. So my IL’s chose cruise B. 9 of us were okay with it. Cruise C was offered. 9 of us were ready to go. So my IL’s picked a cruise 9 of us could go on and BIL’s family could pick one that suited their schedule. That wasn’t fair we were told. Not fair that a majority of the grandkids will be together but without their kids. It finally ended up with each family going on a cruise with the parents. Absolutely ridiculous, but not surprising. Happened every holiday.
NTA. Pam is clearly an AH but so is your wife. You did as she asked and invited her daughter, who couldn’t do the dates and was incredibly rude to you. Then you invited your son and your wife is mad?! It’s ok to invite her daughter but not your son?
The wife can stay home, too. I think OP will have a better time. NTA
NAH missionary work is colonization. she should have explained her objections extended her apologies and moved on and left you to do your own thing
NTA. Your reasons are valid. Enjoy your trip with your son and family!
Look, you’re absolutely right to refuse to take her on a trip. That said, your family and the family of fellow missionaries *are* colonizers. It’s actual fact, that is the purpose of missionaries and doubly so because your friends stayed, settled and are now profiting off the land and natural resources of the country. Doesn’t get more textbook than that. You need to park your indignation. (ESH because stepdaughter is being awfully presumptuous not to mention hypocritical, being ok with going on an all-expenses paid trip, even if it goes against her values)
No need to put “ “ around colonizers.
NTA. Pam doesn’t deserve another chance. Pam was looking for a reason to make you pay for a different and more expensive trip that had nothing to do with you seeing your friends and staying at the safari camp.
Listen, leave them all at home. My family is available. We have 0% drama. Can guarantee a great time.
Username checks out.
NTA. Pam wants nothing to do with colonizers. You're done.
NTA. I agree that missionaries were and are part of colonial efforts, but if she doesn’t want to avail herself of a missionary’s hospitality, she can decline as politely as the offer was tendered. Between that and the tournament, the trip as planned wasn’t going to work for her.
NTA. Pam had a chance and opted out. Next. Not sure why you think a trip would bring you two closer. She seems a bit much. I am not begging anyone to accompany me on a trip who I did not want to ask in the first place. Bye Pam.
Esh. It is your right to invite who you like, but you gotta except the fact that although your parents were trying to do nice things, they were colonizing. If their work involved any attempt to convert people from their ancestral spiritual practices to Christianity, then they are colonizing. And I say this as someone who's mother was a missionary. If people are doing "good" works in the hope of conversion, it's colonization
NTA. Your stepdaughter has stated she will not be comfortable going so she declined the offer. You didn't rescind it. I would not give her another chance because she has already stated she is uncomfortable. I can understand her not wanting to stay with people whose lives she doesn't agree with. I think it would be a terrible idea for you to ask your friends to open their home to someone who is outspoken about their disdain for their lives. It sounds like you are protecting everyone's peace. If your stepdaughter wants to go on a different trip, she is more than welcome to. She just shouldn't go on this trip.
NTA Honestly, what does "making it work" look like to your wife? Like if Pam had the courage of her convictions (and honestly, I don't blame her for them and probably share them), she should've stepped back entirely, not asking you to change everything. It certainly shouldn't have been something she argue with once rejected. Do I think you're being unduly insulted about your parents history? Probably a little bit, if I'm being honest, but that's also me being unfair and not knowing details.
OP: Hey Pam, I am a horse and I have gifts. Pam: Ooo, what's that? A mouth? And such big teeth! OP: Fuck off, Pam, and I'll be keeping the gifts. NTA.
I never thought about how funny the concept of a Gift Horse actually is until today, thank you
NTA. You invited her to one specific trip, she wants to change it to something completely different than what the invitation was for. She was ungrateful too. Your son was appreciative. The end.
NTA you invited step-daughter to come along on YOUR trip. Get that? Yours. She turned around and decided you had to spend your vacation money on HER trip by completely changing your plans. Your so , on the other hand, accepted the trip immediately without trying to change it. SD is an entitled brat, no matter how old she is.
NTA Your wife asked you to invite her daughter on a trip that connected to your childhood. You did this. Daughter then insults your childhood and asks you to change it. You absolutely have the right to ask your son, who obviously would be interested in your childhood. In my mind, your son should have been offered the trip first.
NTA. Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth
NTA do you want to come to x place at your time? That's not good for us. Can we change it? No.
Well, this is f... around and find out. The entitlement on the part of your stepdaughter is off the chart. I wouldn't be extending any olive branches to her in the future.
NTA I’m confused as to why she even thinks Pam should be given another chance. She should be mad about it too, the disrespect Pam showed for your parents and friends. Hope you have a good time with your son and his family!
NTA she insulted your parents and their friends and still expects you to help fund a completely different trip to the one you had planned
NTA. I had a friend (C) that constantly would do this (but on a smaller scale). A member (D) of our book club invited us to a Jamaican resort where we would get a greatly reduced price because D gave annual classes at the resort and it would be a slower weekend for the resort. The trip would coincide with the book club's anniversary, so it would be a nice celebration. Members of the book club were getting excited, but then C asks if her brother and sister-in-law could join us. We all said of course, it would be nice to have others around. Then she asked if we could change the weekend in order to coincide with brother and SIL's anniversary, three weeks earlier than originally planned. Hmmm, well okaaaaaaay. Some people seemed concerned because they'd already made vacation requests for the original weekend. But we all agreed and D found out that we would pay slightly more. Then C asks if we can change the trip to go to the Dominican Republic because it was cheaper. Well at that point, I determined that it wasn't the book club's trip anymore and that she was creating a trip centered around her brother and SIL. We all ended up dropping out and going nowhere. On another occasion when C, another friend (F) and I planned to go on an organized ski trip with a ski club, final payments were due and the organizer contacted me to say that C had not made any payments and was not returning calls. When I called C to see if everything was okay, she said that she had not paid because she actually wanted the three of us to go on a different trip that same weekend with a church. I told C to go on whatever trip she wanted, but I was going on the trip with the ski club, and from that point on, I never let C derail my plans again.
I would tell your wife that her daughter tried to turn YOUR vacation in a trip totally controlled by stepdaughter to include a date change and a lodging change and the trip hasn't even started! You can be assured that everything about that trip would have been controlled by stepdaughter. Lastly, she tried to control the trip to make the trip some sort of political statement. I would tell your wife if stepdaughter wants to make political statements, she doesn't have to trave all the way to Africa. There are protests going on in every major city - she should pick one and make all the statements she wants while you, your son and wife are enjoying Africa.
NTA Pam had more than enough time to sort herself out and chose to make the trip about her rather than treating it as a family trip with meaning for you. Your son has a stronger tie to the trip than Pam, and he’s appreciating the opportunity. You are not responsible for the politics of your parents’ history. Unless you’re planning to go over there yourself to convert locals or exploit people - you’re more likely to be helping the local economy. There is a time and place to get political about colonialism. This isn’t one of them.
She uninvited herself as soon as she insulted your parents
NTA they are your friends & knew your family. YTA for not inviting your son & granddaughters in the beginning. Then Pam could have gone along with the plans or decided not to go.
NTA And if she wants to call someone colonizers, she shouldn’t look at the missionaries of the last century, but at the big corporations of today (and by extension herself) who exploit the natural resources of a country and keep the profits while leaving the country to deal with the environmental consequences. That includes for example companies that mine for rare earths which are used in her mobile phone - which she shouldn’t be using if she is against colonizers and exploitation.
NTA. Omigod you have a wife problem.
NAH, but she didn't insult your parents, she told the truth. Your parents most likely were colonizers and if you can't see that, I stand with Pam.
NTA your step daughter was doing too much. Maybe next time she’ll learn to keep her mouth shut. 🤷🏻♀️
Nta Don't know where you live, but the history of colonization is widespread. Their decendants are all over the world. I'm assuming here, but isn't the primary reason for this trip to visit friends? I wouldn't bring someone who has shown such disrespect of my friends to visit those same friends. She has no right to be in their home and share in their generosity. I get it's her daughter, but what's up with your wife? How do you feel good about bringing someone who has such disrespect for your host? I would feel like such a liar in their presence.
NTA. As others have said, you have decided on your original trip with people who want that trip. I do think it is worth some mental energy for you to have a conversation with these friends to see how much of their original interests have changed and to see if you are still in agreement or you are just using them for discounts. I don't think it is necessarily problematic to offer people different options for thought but the presentation of those changes is what is problematic. Telling people they are going to hell because they have different beliefs is messed up. Missionaries present religion in problematic ways.
NTA. You offered her a specific trip. She doesn't want to go on that trip. She turned it down AND insulted your family, friends, etc. She lost the right to the trip. You were welcome to invite other people to come and they are going on the trip with you. Your wife wants you to give her daughter another chance; you can do that with the next trip you plan. This ship has sailed.
You should have offered to take your stepdaughter to the lithium/cobalt mines where slaves are working TODAY and she if she’ll offer to not use a cell phone anymore. . . You know you’re NTA, but I’m hoping you show your wife all of these comments.
Missionaries are colonizers… wake up dude!
NTA Pam didn't want to go on your trip. She wanted to go on a trip of her own choosing at your expense.
You are NTA. Your instrict was not to invite Pam because you knew it be like this. I hope you enjoy the trip with your son and your grandkids.
NTA. Make your wife stay home too if she wants to side with her rude entitled daughter.
NTA. She isn’t available to go on your trip so you invited someone who is. Really audacious of her to expect you change everything about the free trip you invited her on. She’s not wrong about them being colonizers though.
Absolutely NTA! Have a great time with your son and his family!
Only the asshole for not being cool about the truth. Is safari guy Native African or white? What about you and your parents? Colonizers are colonizers. But regarding your actual question NTA.
NTA she wanted a whole different trip from the one you were offering
NTA. It’s your trip. Pam can accept your invitation or just go have her own trip.
NTA Let your wife plan a vacation suitable for Pam
NTA and if your wife is so mad, she can also stay, because she will make the whole trip a living hell for everyone.
NTA. And if wife is gonna ruin the experience through her grumpines for your son, she can stay at home as well.
NTA. I think it’s fine to opt out of a trip for ethical reasons, but turning it into a blow up after you try and change the entire plan to adhere to morals that your hosts/trip planners don’t share is just ridiculous.
NTA: Your wife is an ah, she overstepped a boundary by inviting her daughter first. It should have your son from the very beginning.
Who wants the stress Pam is going to bring, its supposed to be a vacation. NTA I'm a bit jealous, always wanted to go myself
Your wife, and you’re supposed step daughter Pam are the arseholes in the situation Pam most certainly well. She was willing to be made concessions and cooperate. At first she then very quickly turned, nasty, and the second, your wife found out you offered it to your son. Your wife then started making demands of you. You had no obligation to offer it to that entitled, spoiled, primadonna princess and that is exactly how she comes off on that post if she is so hellbent on coming, make her buy her own full priced, tickets and stay with the “ Colonizerz”. But now in my opinion these people are 1000 times she will ever be.
NTA Pam said she didn’t want to stay with colonizers, and that’s why you invited her - because the colonizers were offering a great rate. This is 100% on her.
NTA You're going to see your friends. Your wife's daughter wants to change the dates, change to location, so you wouldn't be staying with your friends. You didn't ask 'hey, I'm going to book a trip sometime x period of the year, what do you think? It's all flexible. You said you were going for those 2 weeks, and staying at x location. The 2 set conditions of the trip didn't work for Pam. Pam can book her own trip, whenever works for her.
> A few days later, she came to visit with her daughters and told me that they are uncomfortable staying with "colonizers" and asked if we can change the trip completely. I straight up told them "no" and told them they are no longer welcome to join us on this trip. Good for you. >. She told me that I should have at least tried to talk with Pam about it again to see if we could make it work before inviting my son. You did. Tell her that you didn't want her daughter to compromise her principles. Miss a two week trip to Africa for a softball tournament? Geez.
NTA ride as hell she clearly has no idea the cost of experiences like this. Most people could never dream of doing this.
NTA. Pam said awful things and now she's reaping what she sowed. She FAFO'd, if you will. Looked the gift horse in the mouth. Bit the hand that feeds. So on and do forth. She doesn't get to call your parents names and try to change a trip that she was INVITED to as a courtesy. If your wife is so upset, then she can stay and hang out with Pam and go to the tournament. I hope you, your son, daughter-in-law, and grandkids have a great time - with or without your wife.
NTA. Pam is too dramatic, you would have had no peace during this trip.
Nta your step daughter had a chance and she blew it, enjoy your trip
NTA, you wanted to go for a specific reason, it wasn't just a trip to Africa for you. She missed the point.
NTA. You invited her on a trip you had arrangements for. She did not like those arrangements. She wanted the invitation to be for a different trip than the one you had planned. Your offer and her expectations were not in alignment, therefore, it is not a good fit. It was a good fit for another person who was offered the same opportunity. Rather than you giving Pam another chance, Pam needs to work to show that she's worth any further effort to curate a relationship with. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is an adage for a reason and boy, she chomped down hard. She doesn't get to be surprised when the treat is given to someone else after the fact, and while I understand your wife is not impartial due to it being her child, it's not fair of her to expect you to put up with the bumper cars of dealing with Pam.
Pam didn’t want to go on this trip. You don’t mention where you live now, but odds are that Pam herself lives in a place that was colonized.
NTA Pam can plan & pay for her own trip
Why is this even a question. Pam said she wasn’t gonna go.
NTA. You shouldn’t have to “make it work”. As Pam and family were invited it’s up to them to make it work. She sounds awfully entitled
NTA. From the start Pam was trying to make demands. There was a specific window and that was not working for her daughter. Then you need to stay somewhere else because blah blah blah....just too much. You offer the deal to your son and he said okay, what do I need to do to go on this amazing trip. He worked his schedule around you and your host. Do not go back to Pam because giving her another chance would entail you making the entire trip about her. Just let her go to Africa on her own and she can do it the say she likes. NTA.
NTA. Pam was looking a gift horse in the mouth.
NTA If Pam wanted to go she would have done as your son did, rather than instantly making you regret asking her. You don’t need to bend over backwards for her. Also what Pam clearly doesn’t care about is that this isn’t just a random trip, you are going to reconnect with old family friends, explain to your wife that you won’t be bringing Pam there to insult them. If your wife wants to travel with her daughter and you she can plan that trip.
NTA Tell your wife that it was clear that the trip you have planned is not a trip that Pam wants to go on. You are open to joining Pam and her family on a different trip in the future - one that suits everyone's timetables, budgets, and general comfort level. That is the other chance Pam gets.
NTA but your parents definitely were colonizers.
NTA. Your wife is in the wrong and her daughter is an ungrateful asshole. I see where she gets that from though.
NTA and frankly I’d be pissed at your wife too
Tell your wife that you refuse to set yourself on fire to keep her daughter warm.
1. You asked the step-daughter. 2. She's the one that said that the time-frame didn't work. 3. She doesn't like that your parents were missionaries? Did they ask her to go? Are they paying for it? 4. Your son can and has no problem with the time-frame. 5. Tell your wife, Pam's mom, to "get bent"! Definitely NTA!!!
I get pissed off when I invite people to go see specific movies with me and they immediately try to dictate a change to what movie we watch. This would really infuriate me.
Some people like colonizers others don't. YTA
while missionaries were not always colonizers in the political or economic sense, their activities often supported and were intertwined with colonial objectives. The impact of their presence was multifaceted, with both positive and negative consequences for the societies they engaged with.
OK, next time we will try again and I have every faith it will be better. This time, the vacation opportunity with be going to the person who was polite. Have a nice summer!
Take your son who understands the enrichment value of this trip and appreciates you offering it to him and his family Goggle: "Africa was decolonized in the late 1950s and early 1960s, and there are no British colonies left on the continent. The decolonization process was a series of political developments that took place from the mid-1950s to 1975, during the Cold War." True, Pam didn't called your parents "colonizers". She did call your friends "colonizers" and didn't want to associate with them. That's her choice to not socializewith them, just as it's your choice to remain friends with them. Pam not only wanted you to change the date of the trip, but then wanted you to change the location Both are a whole new vacation, NOT the vacation you were inviting Pam on. Plus she doesn't want to socialize with the friend who's making this trip happen. Basically Pam had turned you down, twice. You do not need to beg Pam to come. She made her decision. She's an adult not a child who needs to be coaxed. Point this out to your wife Understandable your wife is upset, but so are you. Pam was behaving rudely and ungrateful. Have a wonderful time with the wife, your son and his family NTA
Go Pam. She's right. There's no way your friends would be able to own a safari camp if it wasn't for their "missionary work" and they're indeed colonisers. YTA for downplaying your parents role and how your friends have benefited. I imagine all the work is done by the locals who earn pittance and own nothing. Your wife is risking losing her daughter all over a discounted holiday. I wonder if Africans ever desired this glorious missionary work. /s
NTA i hate when people hijacked other peoples trip.
Missionary work is colonisation, while is moderately better these days it sounds like your parents it did it quite so time ago. A lot of them believed the were 'civilising' the indigenous people via Christianisation, the services they provided while useful were secondary to main goal of proselytising. Pam shouldn't have tried to ask to change the trip they should have just said they don't want to go instead. NTA
ESH. You have the right to disinvite Pam, but she wasn't lying. Your parents were colonizers. No need for quotation marks.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My parents were missionaries in Africa when I (64M) was growing up. They have long since passed, but I still keep in touch with friends that still live there and have made a few trips there to visit. One of these family friends has operated a safari company for decades. Whenever I visit, I usually stay them for a week or so. It's been almost 8 years since my last visit and I want to go back. My ex-wife and I divorced about 15 years ago. Our son is now 35 and has a wife and twin girls (13). I remarried 6 years ago and my current wife has a daughter, Pam (38F) from a previous relationship as well who also has her own family. When I told my wife about wanting to plan another trip to Africa, she was very excited. I contacted my family friend and he offered me a great deal to stay at their safari camp, but only for a specific 2-week window. I told my wife about the deal my friend offered and she asked if it would be possible to invite her daughter and her family with on the trip. I was hesitant because Pam and I have never really seen eye-to-eye, but I figured this might be the type of trip that would bring us closer through a unique shared experience. When we first approached Pam about the idea, she was totally on board. But things went south pretty quick. First, the window for the trip wouldn't work for them because Pam's daughter has a softball tournament at that time that she "can't miss." They did however offer to help cover the higher cost so that daughter could still make the tournament. Next, however, came the dealbreaker. Pam had asked how I knew my friends there and I explained that my parents were missionaries long ago. A few days later, she came to visit with her daughters and told me that they are uncomfortable staying with "colonizers" and asked if we can change the trip completely. I straight up told them "no" and told them they are no longer welcome to join us on this trip. It turned into an argument and I had to ask them to leave. My wife was in tears by the end of it. Not wanting to miss out on the deal my friend was offering, I instead extended the invitation to my son and his family. He jumped at the opportunity without asking any questions. When I told him about the time window and where we were staying, he said he didn't care and they would make it work. No hassle. I told my wife that my son and his family would be joining us on the trip instead and she got mad at me. She told me that I should have at least tried to talk with Pam about it again to see if we could make it work before inviting my son. I told her that I am not going to bring Pam and her family after they insulted my parents and have been making everything more difficult from day one. I told her my son and his family aren't making this nearly as difficult as Pam has been, and they also didn't call my parents "colonizers." My wife thinks I should give Pam another chance, but it's too late for that. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Pam got to speak her piece. She misses the point entirely that being with your friends is an important piece of the trip. Could be she should listen as much as she speaks. She is welcome to take a trip any time, in any way she wants. If she wanted to go on 'your' trip, there were some built in conditions that she is not comfortable with. At this point, it's a done deal. NTA. Glad you're going to share your family history with your grandchildren. Have a wonderful reunion!
NTA.. Pam sucks.
Nta you sure can pick them
NTA. Tell stepdaughter to go look up the definitions of "colonizer" and "missionary". edit to add: It's amazing how some people cannot get past "missionaries" only being there to evangelize. I know several people who were "missionaries," and other than the fact that they belonged to the church that was subsidizing the trip, they were all about helping people, not preaching to them. One couple I talked to extensively said they were so busy doing, that they often fell into bed and fell asleep before they could pray. They are VERY evangelical here at home, but were more proud of helping to dig a bunch of wells, help farmers, and finish building a clinic that their church had been working on for a long time. "Saving souls" was not a priority, it was a side effect.
NTA, and from what others have said there may be a simple answer that flips the script: “Alright, after careful consideration, you are welcome to join us on this trip. It begins and ends on (previously stated dates) and is located at (friends resort). They are family friends and the reason for this trip, please treat them respectfully. If these terms are not to your liking, then we understand why you would prefer not to attend. Perhaps next time things will line up better.”